Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey man no worries, I think we are both on the right side but just bringing up very different points and it's getting a bit jumbled.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.

We haven't been told yet.

I'll happily promote the new painting company, if nothing else for helping out in bringing this very nice army to the table.

Same here. And I've made note of which studios have offered to help and given good advice. You're all going in the mental rolodex for when I finally decided to get some of my Kingdom Death minis painted (looking specifically at you, Winterdyne )

Haven't been told on purpose. Tenebre is gonna let us all know as the WIP come back in few days.

 plastictrees wrote:


We have a thread in this forum by someone who saw the CD video and thought "that looks awesome", so I think that, as far as informing the consumer, the work done by the new studio will have some merit.

You probably mean me, which is fair because I did say something like that in my thread. However if this is about me, you fail to mention that I was refering to the army video BTP put up, back when I didnt know what level it was supposed to be painted and I didnt know any of the client specifications. You can go look up that video on BTP's channel there is a lot of positive feedback about how that army looks. That probably says something about the difference between your tastes/standards and me/the average BTP client/viewer.

Also, obviously, the BTP video didnt showcase all the things that were wrong with the army like Tenebres video does.

Regarding the MWG connection.

They have a program where they trade advertising for painting services. One of the things they do is make showcase and ad videos when one of their partners cash in enough credits.
The point being, MWG didn't decide to make this video out of the blue, BTP was desperate for some good news and cashed in their credits.

Here is the basic pitch:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=109818

 Physh wrote:

 gunslingerpro wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.

We haven't been told yet.

I'll happily promote the new painting company, if nothing else for helping out in bringing this very nice army to the table.

Same here. And I've made note of which studios have offered to help and given good advice. You're all going in the mental rolodex for when I finally decided to get some of my Kingdom Death minis painted (looking specifically at you, Winterdyne )

Haven't been told on purpose. Tenebre is gonna let us all know as the WIP come back in few days.

I THINK there have been some hints in this thread as to who is doing the repaint. I'm far from sure, and I wouldn't want to spoil the reveal even if I was, but assuming I'm right, it's going to look awesome.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail

Yeah. I remember the reason given for why their kickstarter failed was "a lot of the backers we had got super excited and couldn't wait to get their armies done so pulled out".

There's been a lot of good input on this thread about commission painting in general, and it got me thinking about how Blue Table fits into it, taking into account their methods and results. It seems apparent that a lot of the 'high end' commission painters treat a client's army as their own, and put just as much care, attention and effort into a project. Whilst Blue Table certainly do seem to have it in them to do good work, I don't feel they have the same attitude towards their clients/projects, and each one is more of an 'assembly line' process.

 Riquende wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail

Yeah. I remember the reason given for why their kickstarter failed was "a lot of the backers we had got super excited and couldn't wait to get their armies done so pulled out".

There's been a lot of good input on this thread about commission painting in general, and it got me thinking about how Blue Table fits into it, taking into account their methods and results. It seems apparent that a lot of the 'high end' commission painters treat a client's army as their own, and put just as much care, attention and effort into a project. Whilst Blue Table certainly do seem to have it in them to do good work, I don't feel they have the same attitude towards their clients/projects, and each one is more of an 'assembly line' process.

That's fair, and there's certainly a call for a service like that (bargain bucket product at bargain bucket prices).
There's a problem in the miniature painting industry in particular that people expect to pay very little for work that takes a lot more care than they think. A service that offers a neat, basic standard at the right price has a definite niche. It's doable.
I've had so many enquiries dissipate after a ballpark figure is given it's unreal (and I know a lot of other guys find this too).
You'll notice I harp on a lot about 'work out how many hours you're paying for' in all these threads, it's a good practice to get into.

winterdyne wrote:

 Riquende wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail

Yeah. I remember the reason given for why their kickstarter failed was "a lot of the backers we had got super excited and couldn't wait to get their armies done so pulled out".

There's been a lot of good input on this thread about commission painting in general, and it got me thinking about how Blue Table fits into it, taking into account their methods and results. It seems apparent that a lot of the 'high end' commission painters treat a client's army as their own, and put just as much care, attention and effort into a project. Whilst Blue Table certainly do seem to have it in them to do good work, I don't feel they have the same attitude towards their clients/projects, and each one is more of an 'assembly line' process.

That's fair, and there's certainly a call for a service like that (bargain bucket product at bargain bucket prices).
There's a problem in the miniature painting industry in particular that people expect to pay very little for work that takes a lot more care than they think. A service that offers a neat, basic standard at the right price has a definite niche. It's doable.
I've had so many enquiries dissipate after a ballpark figure is given it's unreal (and I know a lot of other guys find this too).
You'll notice I harp on a lot about 'work out how many hours you're paying for' in all these threads, it's a good practice to get into.

Not to go too far off the rails in this thread.

People generally don't realize how long it takes to do a model to the standard you are looking at with a high end commision (let alone an above average paint job.)

People think "Hey I can paint a SM in like 10 minutes. so your are awesome and can make it look better than me in the same 10 minutes...."

Back on topic.
I can't hardly wait to see the fixes and who did them.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I am going to bow out of this discussion.
We clearly have differing standards on critical thinking and rationality. That is an issue we can work with and discuss.

But some things will stop a conversion dead......and here it is;

 techsoldaten wrote:
Instead of all the skepticism and victim shaming,

This childish and intellectually vapid accusation is the perfect way to derail a conversation.

You, sir, should be ashamed of your self.
I have gone out of my way to ensure my position regarding tenebre is perfectly clear. Anybody who sees any kind of victim blaming must have either reading comprehension issues or suffer from an extreme case of intellectual dishonesty.

Tenebre, I wish with all my being that you get this issue resolved (both legally and in regard to enjoying your army), and I look forward to seeing it beautifully painted.

Your superior critical thinking skills and rationality are truly awesome to behold, considering I wasn't speaking about you. I like how you can find offence where none exists, and show your intellectual inferiors when they need to be ashamed.

Anyways... I totally agree with people's points about the end customer not understanding how much time is needed to carry out a paint process. Even for small things, it's never trivial. A friend of mine was a commission painter while he was in art school, he gave up after it started taking all his free time.

I don't think the OP had any issue with the amount of time involved with getting the commission painted. From what he has stated (multiple times), the issue was the complete lack of communication and the failure of BTP to deliver a product in lines with the standard negotiated and paid for.

Saldiven wrote:
I don't think the OP had any issue with the amount of time involved with getting the commission painted. From what he has stated (multiple times), the issue was the complete lack of communication and the failure of BTP to deliver a product in lines with the standard negotiated and paid for.

correct. and when i asked for WiP pictures for 7 weeks straight and kept being told tomorrow and still never saw anything, then the "time" bothered me.

Its art and things run long, communication makes this not an issue though. But in my case there was none.

And when a project is over by nearly double the quoted time and turns out as awful as it was.. well then of course there is an issue

How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.

I imagine a lot of them have normal fulltime jobs.

 Sasori wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.

I imagine a lot of them have normal fulltime jobs.

In the US, both of those things are true. Overseas, neither of those things are true.

Painters in Poland, Italy and some other places do very well based on commissions. I have a group from the Ukraine that has done some excellent work for me at astoundingly low rates.

TheCustomLime wrote:How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.

The way to make it work is to only do table top standard and develop some tricks that speed things up. For example, I airbrush the most common colour, zenithal highlight it, block in the rest with a brush, gloss varnish, black oil wash process, some simple highlighting, do the base and matte varnish. I tend to only take commissions from friends these days as doing it for a living almost killed my hobby. I tend to make about $20 an hour with this process.

Baldur1053 wrote:
Regarding the MWG connection.

They have a program where they trade advertising for painting services. One of the things they do is make showcase and ad videos when one of their partners cash in enough credits.
The point being, MWG didn't decide to make this video out of the blue, BTP was desperate for some good news and cashed in their credits.

Here is the basic pitch:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=109818

You would think they could start the video with something that says this is a commercial. Like, they have openings on most of their other videos, why not be clear on the fact this is a paid-advertisement?

 Sasori wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.

I imagine a lot of them have normal fulltime jobs.

Or are college students.

Me, it was a way to make ends meet when I was a paid volunteer for a nonprofit. (The pay was lousy, but the job was a Hell of a lot more fulfilling than my current employment.)

The Auld Grump

 frozenwastes wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.

The way to make it work is to only do table top standard and develop some tricks that speed things up. For example, I airbrush the most common colour, zenithal highlight it, block in the rest with a brush, gloss varnish, black oil wash process, some simple highlighting, do the base and matte varnish. I tend to only take commissions from friends these days as doing it for a living almost killed my hobby. I tend to make about $20 an hour with this process.

^ this, really.

For my part, I definitely make less than minimum wage, but when I started I was a student. Then after I graduated, I kept it up as a way to help pay the bills as I hunt for fulltime employment. At least when Im not picking up odd jobs and whatnot... The post college world is an odd one.

It helps that I dont think of it as a job, but more-so as my hobby. I like getting to paint all the random weird things that clients send me

What Frozenwastes said. I normally can knock an army out in a weeks worth of evenings. But I tend to only take 1-2 a year at this point. Just enough to pay for my hobby honestly. And I tend to make well above minimum wage.

Just stumbled upon this topic. I had actually planned on using them for a fantasy. I narrowed it down to three studios and started checking out their work. When I saw this on the BTP web store I immediately eliminated them. I can paint better then this.

It's not a bout " I can do that too!"

It's purely about " Do I have the money and do I want to spend my time for somethingelse?"

You don't need someone to wash your car, you could do it yourself. No need for school, educate your children yourself.....

RoninXiC wrote:
It's not a bout " I can do that too!"

It's purely about " Do I have the money and do I want to spend my time for somethingelse?"

You don't need someone to wash your car, you could do it yourself. No need for school, educate your children yourself.....

As someone who has had a significant amount of commission work, it is about both.

I would never pay for something that is at, or slightly above my skill level. That is a waste. When I pay for commission, I want something that is significantly better.

Why is it a waste if you just saved dozends of not hundreds of hours? That's not a waste for many people.

RoninXiC wrote:
It's not a bout " I can do that too!"

It's purely about " Do I have the money and do I want to spend my time for somethingelse?"

You don't need someone to wash your car, you could do it yourself. No need for school, educate your children yourself.....

Right, but if your car comes back to you slightly on fire you might reconsider the value of the time saved.
To me, no `painting level`should include `paint slopped all over the damn place`, Staying inside the lines and keeping your paints thin are really the two basic requirements that should be considered the minimum standard for any professional painting service.

 plastictrees wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
It's not a bout " I can do that too!"

It's purely about " Do I have the money and do I want to spend my time for somethingelse?"

You don't need someone to wash your car, you could do it yourself. No need for school, educate your children yourself.....

Right, but if your car comes back to you slightly on fire you might reconsider the value of the time saved.
To me, no `painting level`should include `paint slopped all over the damn place`, Staying inside the lines and keeping your paints thin are really the two basic requirements that should be considered the minimum standard for any professional painting service.

"Your car might come back on fire" is hardly a good reason to avoid taking your car to car wash though.

But really, the minimum standard is just whatever minimum standard for which people are willing to pay. If people are willing to pay for you to spend less than 2 hours per model, then I don't see the problem with having that as your minimum standard.

I think there are a couple of legitimate factors there.
1: Absolutely, if it is very clear that you are paying for 2-3 colours slopped all over the place and that`s what you get, then no harm no foul.
2: You have to expect people to judge you by your minimum standard. Even if you are paying for something better, some people are going to judge your service by the minimum standard that you are comfortable sending out the door. It`s about pride in your work. For the Dwarf example above, it doesn`t take longer to do that same job without boltgun metal all over the place if you`re practiced, use the right tools and give a crap about what you`re doing.

 plastictrees wrote:
I think there are a couple of legitimate factors there.
1: Absolutely, if it is very clear that you are paying for 2-3 colours slopped all over the place and that`s what you get, then no harm no foul.

At the lower levels I don't think BTP have really misrepresented the fact they are basically just slopping colours on quickly and producing an army that most people could whip together 1 unit per weekend.

The problem in this thread is more that the OP paid for a level 4 and got something that looks like a level 2. It's not a problem that level 2 exists as an option, simply that he paid for a level 4.

2: You have to expect people to judge you by your minimum standard. Even if you are paying for something better, some people are going to judge your service by the minimum standard that you are comfortable sending out the door. It`s about pride in your work.

People have the right to judge based on whatever they want, but I do think it's slightly ignorant to judge based on the lowest standard you offer. The fact that chevy make a Cruze shouldn't really shouldn't worry you if you're looking to buy yourself a Corvette.

I can appreciate people who want to maintain a high standard across the board, the Ferraris of the painting world. I also don't see a problem with companies that want to cater to a wider audience who wants to get a whole army painted and doesn't want to spend $20,000 to have it done. I'm not saying you can't judge people based on their minimum standard, I just don't see the merit in doing so and/or looking down on a studio for offering a lower quality for people who want it.

What I think does have merit is basing your judgement on value and the overall service provided, which in this case BTP have fallen very short.

For the Dwarf example above, it doesn`t take longer to do that same job without boltgun metal all over the place if you`re practiced, use the right tools and give a crap about what you`re doing.

I'm not really seeing how you could paint it better that wouldn't also take more time. There's a million things you could do to paint them better... all of them would require more time.

I'll chime in with a salient point: it is actually quite difficult to produce a neat, basic level piece of work when you're used to working further. You tend to take shortcuts in basecoating if you're going to wash heavily and re-coat before highlights for example. No need in it being streak-free and even if you're going to mostly obliterate it anyway.

Actually doing precise work in early stages is a disciplined task and isn't necessarily much cheaper (in time) than a 3 or 4 level highlight job, simply because of the extra care that's needed covering larger areas, more evenly at that point.

One of the reasons I don't do simpler work than I offer is simply because I find it very difficult to 'dial back' into that mindset. I'm too skittish in how I approach things.

winterdyne wrote:
One of the reasons I don't do simpler work than I offer is simply because I find it very difficult to 'dial back' into that mindset.

I can appreciate that, but at the end of the day painting something more basic and rougher will be faster and that's just what some people want so they can get their models on the table.

I will never paint an army faster than I painted my first army. Even though I'm always aiming to speed paint***, that first army was basic and low quality and I pumped out the models like lightning. These days I can't even bring myself to paint such low quality so even in my attempts to speed paint I know I'll probably never paint something that fast again.

***(most things in my gallery are less than 2 hours per model, many less than 1 hour per model and some less than half an hour)

But when you're trying to appeal to people who want to have thousands of points of models (quite possibly hundreds of models) I can see the benefit in trying to really slice back on the minutes per model so that you can charge a more appealing price. You're not charging for your skill, you're charging for the time you're saving the client and your ability to do it faster than your client is where you can make more money.

Correct me if I'm wrong, winterdyne, but what BTP charges for a level 3 or 4 is below what you'd charge for your basic quality level? That's why I don't really compare what you both are doing, because it's two different tiers to me, it would be like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai, Ferrari don't make Hyundai level cars so a comparison is mostly academic.

Yes, they charge considerably lower, and I would bet a considerable sum are considerably faster.

My basic level (which I evaluate as high-end tabletop) in their own objective terms appears to be around level 4 or 5. To achieve a satisfactory result with what they're saying they do at that level takes me around an hour to an hour and a half per 28mm model. Example:

These are base colour, wash, 2 levels of highlights. Average a smidge under one hour per model (that'd have gone up if I'd used more colours for the legs). Most highlights are simple layers, or drybrushing. Nothing too fancy. The only thing that's really 'tricky' is the faces, and those are something that take me maybe 5 minutes per model (I have the technique down pat, and I have a *very* pointy brush).

I see a lot of what they do as wasted effort - there's no point roughly drybrushing 3 levels of highlight onto something when a neat flat basecoat and a controlled wash takes the same time and looks better, and if necessary can be worked further later. Rushed work, no matter how much you do, looks rushed. If you're not going to do edge highlights properly, don't do them - do something else to provide the contrast. If you're going to paint eyes, do them properly, don't just slop some white in the eye socket and dot with black using the end of cocktail stick. Otherwise, just don't do them.

I think it's that lack of care (and trying to stretch their 'level' by doing poor looking, rushed work just to shoehorn bullet points onto the pricing) that's biting them on the arse in terms of the evaluation of their work - especially apparent in the Robotech stuff they put out. The OP's stuff is a terrible example even of their usual standard work.