Benlisted wrote:
All this talk of Skytyrant has got me thinking. Obviously it'd be nice to give the whole swarm Fleet with AG, but at a 30 Garg swarm that's costing you 75 points, which is pretty damn hefty since it already costs 450pts or so depending how you run the flyrant. Would it be at all viable to stick AG on only 20/30 of the gargoyles, since they're technically two separate broods so you can upgrade them differently? If your opponent shoots 10 off then he gives the remainder fleet. Then again, that only actually saves you 20 points, so maybe it isn't particularly worth it.

 ansacs wrote:
Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.

Some things that might be beneficial to point out.
1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.

This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.

I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.

2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.

3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.

The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.


Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.


Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.

For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.

 ansacs wrote:
Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.

Some things that might be beneficial to point out.

Spoiler:

1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.

This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.

I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.

2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.

3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.

The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.


Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.


Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.

For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.

Spoiler:

Top 10 Reasons Why Tyranids Will Win.

1. Geoff is a highly experienced Tyranid player.

2. I have very weak anti-air.

3. The nerf to D...Destroyer shots can only do 2W at most. The D-scythes only wound on a 3+ and they do D2 wounds (instead of D3).

4. Other than a lucky '6' on the D-charts, Eldar will have problems against 2+ Shrouded cover.

5. The Barbed Hierodule with 2+ cover and 12 S10 shots has a better chance to take out my Wraithknight than vice versa. I really don't have an answer for his GMC.

6. Geoff actually got some very good Psychic powers with 4 Catalysts, 2 Paroxysms, 1 Psychic Scream, 1 Warp Blast and 1 Onslaught. I have weak psychic defense with no psykers in my army.

7. We are playing the Scouring. Eldar has got 3 Fast Attacks. Tyranids have none.

8. Although Tyranids are going 1st, they do have Master of Ambush and so will be getting the alpha-strike.

9. We played with plenty of ruins in this game. Basically, his flyrants will never have to jink as they should almost always be in terrain.

10. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 VP sub-missions. These will be very hard for my army to take because they consist of FMC's, a Gargantuan and units with 2+ cover.


Eldar:

Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.

1. I am more familiar with Tyranids than Geoff is with the new Eldar.

2. Eldar is going 2nd, meaning they will have the last say on objectives.

3. Mobility. No one can take objectives quite like the Eldar. Their bikes can zoom from 48" away onto an objective.

4. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 Objectives sub-missions. With Eldar going 2nd and ObSec bikers, I should be able to grab these every turn, that is, if I don't mind sacrificing my scoring units next turn.

5. Hammer & Anvil deployment. One of the worst deployment types for Tyranids and one of the best for Eldar.

6. One of the best ways to deal with Eldar is by running MSU. Well, Geoff is doing quite the opposite of that, with 1 big "deathstar" unit (his Barbie) and a bunch of flyers. He's only got 2 units of rippers to grab those objectives. Once I take them out, Geoff's ability to grab the objectives will become really hard.

7. D-weapons. Even though the D has been nerfed, it is still really dangerous, especially from my D-scythe Wraithguards. You know what they say....a D a day keeps the big bugs away. Of course, this is assuming my WG wave serpent doesn't get popped out in the middle of nowhere.

8. Target priority. Let's see if Geoff gets his Target Priority correct. Before the game, I was going on about how good the Warp Spiders and the D-scythe WG's were. I also stressed how my Crimson Hunter Exarch was my best weapon against his flyrants and how I have 3 Fast Attack units in my list. Let's see if he goes after those units or my ObSec jetbike troops. If he leaves my jetbikes alone, then I have a chance. If he goes after them early, then he will neutralize my mobility advantage and I will be in trouble.

9. His flyrants will have to eventually land. And when they do, I will take them out....assuming I still have any offense left.

10. Sorry, I barely made it to 9. I don't have a 10.

Spoiler:

Maelstrom - We both get 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for our Maelstrom objectives.

Movement - 2 mucolids come in (deepstriking near the 2-pt objective). All 3 flyrants fly off the table. He moves the Malanthrope, Swarmy and Barbie towards the center of the table (to get away from the threat range of my outflanking D-Scythe Wraithguards).

Shooting - Barbed Hierodule does 6W to my Wraithknight. I then fail 4 out of 6 4+ cover saves. However, I then make 3 out of 4 5+ FNP saves.

Tyranids fail to kill a unit, but they do have their rippers on their Maelstrom objective.

Spoiler:

Movement - I use my Autarch to give +1 to my Reserves. Everything comes in except for my Autarch and his unit of bikers and the Crimson Hunter Exarch. I deepstrike the hawks into my opponent's deployment zone to go after the rippers on an objective. Scorpions come in on the opposite flank of the hawks (but still within range of the rippers and objective in my opponent's Deployment zone). Spiders come in mid-board and behind a BLOS hill to go after either Barbie or the malanthrope. Scatterbikes come in around my deployment zone (I get 1 Skyfire Nexus on my 1-pt objective). I make sure that the bikes are out of flyrant threat range when they come back in next turn. Finally, wave serpents (with WG's and Dark Reapers) come in mid-board as well. Geoff does a good job of keeping his TMC's/GMC out of my D-scythe threat range and so I leave my WG's (and Dark Reapers) in their transports this turn.

Shooting - Between my Swooping Hawks, 1 serpent shield and the scatterbikes, I manage to erase both units of rippers, thus denying my opponent of his Maelstrom objective. The rest of my shooting - Warp Spiders, WK and scatterbikes - fail to do any damage to his TMC's with 2+ cover, though I do manage to take out 1 mucolid as well. Geoff gets a little revenge on me as he fails 4 2+ saves on his malanthrope but then makes 4 5+ FNP saves on him instead. WG wave serpent then moves flat-out towards Barbie and his friends.

Assault - While making my assault moves for my bikers, I lose 1 bike to dangerous terrain. They then fail the Morale and fall back.

Maelstrom - My opponent fails to achieve either of his Maelstrom objectives this turn. He fails to kill a unit and then I erase his unit on his Maelstrom objective. I, on the other hand, get both of mine. However, since Geoff did 3W to my Gargantuan Lord of War, he gets +1VP, which in the ITC missions counts towards the Secondary Maelstrom objectives.

Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 3, Tyranids: 3

Spoiler:

Movement - Warlord's unit and Crimson Hunter both come in. This turn I go after his Warlord flyrant. Dark Reapers disembark. Crimson Hunter and bikes (with 1 unit of bikes on the Skyfire objective) aim for his flyrant. My fleeing bikers regroup. I make sure to cover both of my Maelstrom objectives as well. Lastly, WG's disembark after their serpent advances 6". I am actually in range of Barbie, however, I opt to go after Swarmy instead. Why? Because Swarmy is in range of the Malanthrope, and I can actually BBQ them both.

Shooting - I make a mistake here. I fire the Crimson Hunter into his Warlord, and then I find out he is also within 6" of the Malanthrope! Needless to say, with 2+ cover (in ruins), his Warlord doesn't lose a single wound. I then fire with my WG's. They barbeque Swarmy. However, when I roll to wound against his Malanthrope, I roll a 1, 2, 1, 2, 3 for a total of only 1W. I need to redirect my firepower against his Malanthrope and Geoff rolls well for his saves. None of my shots get past his 2+ cover, though I do manage to do another 1W to it from the WG's Wave Serpent cover-ignoring serpent shields. In short, my Shooting phase was just horrible.

Assault - Bikers do their jump moves (except for the unit that just regrouped).

Maelstrom - Despite Geoff's really good turn and my really bad one, I outscore Geoff again in the Maelstrom objectives. I get both of mine (with several different units) and Geoff only manages to get 1 of his (kill-a-unit).

Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 5, Tyranids: 4

Spoiler:

Movement - I fly my flyer off the table. I then position my bikes to shoot at either a flyrant or the Malanthrope. WK moves towards the Skyfire Nexus. This may be risky because he will be out in the open, but I take the gamble anyways. Scorpions are still alive but continue to hide in the ruins by Objective #3 in my opponent's deployment zone. I move the DR's Wave Serpent into my opponent's deployment zone as well (I've not got 3 units there - scorpions, Wave Serpent and my Warlord's unit). Lastly, my 2 remaining WG's go after the Malanthrope.

Shooting - It takes my entire army just to kill the Malanthrope with 2W left! First of all, the WG's fire but only 1 of the D-scythes do any damage (and it only does 1W). I then fire all 3 bikers at the Malanthrope. That's 32 S6 shots and 2 S5 shots (from my Autarch) and he makes EVERY SINGLE 2+ SAVES! So I am forced to fire the WK at him. At first I wanted to run my WK to the Skyfire objective (and cover as well), but now, he's going to be out in the open. Instead, he shoots....and my opponent finally fails a 2+ cover save! The Malanthrope finally goes down!

Maelstrom - Once again, I get both of mine, killing 1 enemy unit (his Malanthrope) and with one of my units on an objective. And once again, Geoff only gets 1 of his. He kills one of my units (Dark Reapers) but has no one within reach of his objective (and he didn't want to land his flyrants just yet).

Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 7, Tyranids: 5

Spoiler:

Maelstrom - Geoff gets 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for his Maelstrom objectives. I need to kill 2 units.

Geoff re-evaluates his chances of possibly winning at the end of this turn. I've got 3 units (actually 4 as I could split off my Warlord from his unit) in his deployment zone for Linebreaker and to cover his 2 objectives. I've got 1 wave serpent and the WG's to cover the 2 mid-field objectives (both worth 2-pts). I've got my WK in my deployment zone to cover my objective. HOWEVER, I've also got 2 units of bikers hiding in my deployment zone waiting to zip onto objectives on my next turn. So he decides that he can't take the Primary from me.

With the Secondary, I will have a hard time taking out any of his units - 3 flyrants and Barbie, almost all at full strength or just 1W on them. He could potentially win Maelstrom if he can achieve both of his Maelstrom objectives and if he kills my WK, which would give him a bonus +1VP.

So if I take Primary and he takes Secondary, the difference will be in the Tertiaries. He needs for 2 things to happen - he needs to deny me Linebreaker and he needs to kill my Warlord. It's a long shot, but it's his only chance of winning this turn. However, what he really needs is for the game to go on another turn as the chances for him to pull it all off is very slim indeed.

Movement - Warlord flyrant lands onto his Objective #3 (behind and in his BLOS ruins terrain). I have 3 scorpions there contesting but he should be able to shoot them off. Another flyrant goes after my Warlord and his unit (he stays in the air). Barbie goes after my contesting Wave Serpent. His last flyrant swoops into the central ruins. It is no use for him to go after my WG's because I've got both my WG's and their Wave Serpent on Objective #2 in the central ruins, so it will probably go after the WK as insurance.

Psychic - Scream doesn't go off and only 1 Catalyst goes off.

Shooting - Ok, for Geoff to pull this off, almost everything has to go perfectly for him. First of all, his Warlord shoots at my scorpions. I am clutch with their saves as I pass 8 out of 10 saves and only lose 2 (Exarch survives). HOWEVER, my Exarch then fails his Morale and falls back off of the 3-pt objective. Doh!

Next, his other flyrant shoots at my Warlord's unit. He kills only 1 biker and put 1W on my Warlord (slightly below-average, average would have been 3 Wounds).

So now he's got a decision to make. Should Barbie fire at my WK and Wave Serpent or should he fire at my Warlord's unit and Wave Serpent? Geoff decides to go after my Warlord's unit and so split-fires between the unit and the Wave Serpent. He manages to glance my serpent once and also kills off both windrider bikers. However, my Warlord survives! I then roll for Morale and roll , ! Warlord falls back off of the 1-pt objective.

Lastly, he goes for a hail mary and fires his last flyrant at my WK....to no effect. My WK survives.

Assault - Finally, we have assault. Barbie charges and wrecks the Wave Serpent.

Currently, Geoff has both of his Maelstrom objectives (Warlord on Objective #3 and he kills 2 of my units). If I don't achieve either of my Maelstrom objectives, then we will tie the Secondary. It I get even 1, then I will take the Secondary (and assuming the game ends).

Spoiler:

Movement - Crimson Hunter comes in and goes after the mid-field flyrant. I move my bikers towards the objectives. WK jumps onto the Skyfire 1-pt objective. Autarch regroups and nabs me Linebreaker. Scorpion Exarch is a lost cause and continues to run away.

Shooting - Crimson Hunter does 2W to his flyrant. My WK then goes clutch when he hits the wounded flyrant twice and rolls , on the Destroyer table to take it out. My bikes don't even have to shoot. Instead, they just turbo onto the 2-pt and 3-pt Scouring objectives.

Maelstrom - Geoff gets both of his objectives this turn (Warlord flyrant on Objective #3 and kills several of my units). I actually manage to get one of my kill objectives

Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 8, Tyranids: 7

In the Primary, I have the 1-pt (WK), both 2-pts (jetbikes, WG and Wave Serpent) and the 3-pt objective (jetbikes) for a total of 8-pts for the Scouring. Geoff only gets 1 3-pt objective (his Warlord flyrant) and 2 Fast Attack pts (Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks) for a total of 5-pts. I would take the Primary. I also would take the Secondary as well. Lastly, I would get Linebreaker (my Warlord).

That is....if the game ends. If not, then I just may be in trouble as all of my units are exposed.

I roll to see if the game continues and.....

Spoiler:

....the roll is a . Game over!

Eldar takes Primary, Secondary and Linebreaker for a 9-0 win.





Crushing Victory to Craftworld Eldar!!!

 ansacs wrote:
Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.

Some things that might be beneficial to point out.
1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.

This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.

I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.

2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.

3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.

The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.


Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.


Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.

For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.

Xyptc wrote:We might get something by combining the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood -1 Leadership bubble with heavy firepower targeting their bikes then?

LordRogalDorn wrote:Thank you for posting this. Your analysis on how to deal with "scatbikes" is some of the most constructive advice I have seen sense CWE hit the streets. I will keep this strategy in mind for when I next play against CWE.

Cirronimbus wrote:I agree with ansacs scatbike analysis after playing a few games against the new book. There's also the psychological aspect of the "death by 1000 cuts" strategy... it's much easier and feels much less daunting when I'm faced with loads of scatbikes to just tell myself "Ok, only 1 guy needs to die from that squad... 1 from this squad..." rather than "kill them all!" I've also found that getting the bike squads to fail their morale checks isn't too bad. If I can force 3-4 checks in a phase I have a decent shot at one of them failing.

That being said, I use a Tyranid list that would get me laughed off the internet if I posted it in here so it's all relative I guess.

 Iechine wrote:
For Jim, full army pic going to Killadelphia:

Spoiler:

I am taking:

Spoiler:

CAD:
Flyrant w/devourers egrubs
Flyrant w/devourers egrubs

Malanthrope

Tervigon w/egrubs
30 Termagants

Leviathan:
Flyrant w/devourers egrubs
Superbeast Flyrant w/Reaper, Scytal, Adrenal Glands, Old Adversary, Ymgarl Factor, Egrubs
Tervigon w/Egrubs

Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid

Mawloc

I've had fun playing this list, we'll see how it does with their mission packet.

Solidcrash wrote:
Look good and I am look forward for this battle report ansacs!

Do anyone know good army list and tactic for 1000 pts?

I have my theory list here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/648466.page#7830685

Using deathstorm unit, I want to try it out because I think made more than half of tyranids unit gain 2+ cover save is good survive..

Callylove wrote:
I am doing a 750pts doubles tournament (for a total of 1500 points for each side) with a random teammate tomorrow. I am very anxious of what to bring, because I know there is going to be some experienced players there. Normally I would go for triple Flyrants triple Mucolids, but I am limited to only one flyer. The missions is four of the Eternal War missions.

I have gone through a couple of potentional lists, but because I lack the necessary models for some of them, including Tervigons, Carnifexes and Dimachareons, I have decided to go with something like this:

Flyrant
Malanthrope
Zoanthrope
Mucolid
10 Hormagaunts
Dakkafex
Exocrine

Does anyone have some thoughts about any changes I should do? Is the list crap or do you think it can give my opponents some trouble?

Thanks!

 Frozocrone wrote:
10) Eldar will roll hot and Tyranids will roll badly, rendering the previous 19 points moot.

Should be an interesting read all the same.

 ansacs wrote:
Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.

Some things that might be beneficial to point out.

Spoiler:

1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.

This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.

I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.

2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.

3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.

The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.


Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.


Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.

For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.

jy2 wrote:Thanks for your insight. Let me reply in kind to some of your points.

jy2 wrote:1) Yes, it's true that Eldar has lost some of the board control presence that they used to have with wave serpents. Scatbike troops are much more fragile than wave serpent transports with ObSec troops inside. And 1 WK, even though a LoW, cannot control the Movement phase as much as 3 normal WK's can. They can still get around this, however, with the WK and firepower. They've got the firepower to shoot down Tyranids from a safe distance and the WK still radiates a keep-away-from-me aura. Unless one is running a horde Tyranid army that can tarpit the WK (or spamming those dimachaerons or running Barbie backed by a malanthrope), Eldar with the WK is actually better than Tyranids in holding the middle because the WK is a threat to any TMC other than the dimas. Then there are the Seer Council and D-scythe Wraithguards, 2 excellent board control units if the Eldar player really want to clog up the middle.

jy2 wrote:Also, in my playtests, I'm finding MSU min-sized bike units to be better than bigger units. It's better to run 5 units of 3 scatterbikes than 3 units of 5 bikes. This allows the Eldar army much more flexibility. It also allows them to sacrifice 1 or 2 units to Maelstrom objectives with the score-&-then-die method (if they absolutely need to).

jy2 wrote:Finally, if the Eldar army is going up against an army with superior board control, they could spread out their objectives to counter any army that likes to bunch up their objectives.

jy2 wrote:In short, losing board control isn't as big a factor to Eldar as it is to many of the other armies. Eldar do have the units that can play the board control game, but even if they don't, the super-mobility of Eldar helps to compensate for their lack of board presence because they can get to any objective anywhere and at any time.

jy2 wrote:2) True again. The loss of even 1 single model reduces the firepower of the unit substantially (assuming each bike takes a special weapon). However, for their price, the Eldar can get a lot of threats at very low costs. Just look at a base of 6x3 scatterbikes. That is only 486-pts for 72 S6 shots a turn in 6 units (compared to 2 flyrants for 480-pts, you only get 24 TL-S6 shots). In a typical 1850 lists, that leaves you with 1364-pts for the rest of the army. The army is super-efficient in terms of the cost/firepower ratio. Eldar are the new "Necrons" (which IMO used to be the most efficient army). So while every model you kill hurts the Eldar warmachine, their potency remains still very high compared to many other armies just due to their sheer efficiency. This is just a rough estimate, but I'd say a typical 1000-pt Eldar army has as much firepower as a typical 1500-pt Marine army. If you take out 200-pts of Eldar, the 800-pts remaining will still have as much firepower as about a 1200-pt Marine army.

jy2 wrote:3) So is it better to finish off 1 unit of scatterbikes or to kill several models from each unit to force Morale? I'll use your example of killing either 10 bikes from 5 units of 5 bikes each or killing 2 whole units of 5 bikers each. I shall refer to this as "distributed killing" and "focused killing". In the short term, distributed killing may be better. With 28% chance to fail Morale, you kill 10 bikes and 1 will most likely break and fall back (and if you're lucky, maybe even fall off the table). Also, you might cause the bikes to jink, thus reducing their offensive potency even further. However, in the long term, I prefer focused killing. In distributed killing, you hurt all 5 units. Now I've got 4-5 units (depending on whether a unit breaks or not) that can still grab Maelstrom objectives. With focused killing, I've only got 3 to go grab Maelstrom objectives. Also, in the long term, if even 1 biker survives, he is a HUGE threat to the endgame objectives. Once you reduce a biker squad to 1-2 units, that unit is going to hide and wait (while shooting and still jumping behind BLOS terrain). If you're playing in an Objectives-based game and you don't have a very mobile army (with ObSec troops), IMO it is better to not let a single model from a biker unit survive. With distributed killing, you may disrupt the Eldar offense temporarily, but those surviving bikers will come back to bite you in the arse.

jy2 wrote:4) Vector strike vs Crimson Hunters. While this is a viable strategy, the reality of it is that it is actually harder to do than you would think, especially when going up against an experienced Eldar opponent. Crimson Hunters out-range flyrants or almost any other Tyranid FMC. The prudent Eldar player will make sure to try to stay our of VS range of Tyranid FMC's (especially the hive crones) and still easily be in range to try to down them. Also, Vector Dancer allows them to perform maneuvers like getting behind the FMC, turning to shoot it and staying out of their flight paths of the FMC.

Vector Striking against an Eldar flyer is much like trying to cast an important psychic power in the presence of the Seer Council. You just can't rely on it as a tactic. You should look at it as a bonus instead. If the Eldar flyer is foolish enough to move into your flight path, then he is a target of opportunity. Just don't plan your tactics revolving how to best VS an Eldar flyer. Your flyrants should be going for other Eldar ground units or even trying to shoot down the flyer as its primary tactic.

 ansacs wrote:


For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.

zerosignal wrote:

 ansacs wrote:


For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.

Doesn't it have stomp attacks?

Callylove wrote:
I am doing a 750pts doubles tournament (for a total of 1500 points for each side) with a random teammate tomorrow. I am very anxious of what to bring, because I know there is going to be some experienced players there. Normally I would go for triple Flyrants triple Mucolids, but I am limited to only one flyer. The missions is four of the Eternal War missions.

I have gone through a couple of potentional lists, but because I lack the necessary models for some of them, including Tervigons, Carnifexes and Dimachareons, I have decided to go with something like this:

Flyrant
Malanthrope
Zoanthrope
Mucolid
10 Hormagaunts
Dakkafex
Exocrine

Does anyone have some thoughts about any changes I should do? Is the list crap or do you think it can give my opponents some trouble?

Thanks!

Solidcrash wrote:
Hey Jy2, Just read whole battle report... Enjoy it.

[Reader: Only read below once you have read Jy2 battle report.]

Spoiler:

Bah tyranids lose! This is Tyranids tactic and you play as elder!

But thank for teach us how elder behave. We will strike back!
I think Tyranids should replace his GMC for carnifexs. But lose that Str10 shots... Ermm. But 3d3 x hammer of wreaths is good against big unit. Take multiple twinlink brain leech carnifex and barb carnifex can wipe jetbike I guess.

Spoiler:

Haha....sorry about that. Our 2 Eldar players here have taken a sabbatical. Thus, no one to play Eldar here currently. Guess I have to be the bad guy. But whether I play as or against, I think that there is some insight to be gleened from the matchup.

Next time, maybe I will take my bugs down to SoCal and beat up on Reece and his Eldar.

Barbie isn't bad. He's actually quite good against a lot of armies and is the only unit who can truly threaten the Wraithknight. However, with him in the army, Tyranids will struggle in Maelstrom objectives against Eldar. On the flip side, if we were playing VP's for the Primary, it would have been Eldar who would have trouble against this type of Tyranid build.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just read the batrep

Spoiler:

It's a shame really because MSU is a great way to counter Eldar, yet Barbie is the best unit in the army to deal with a Wraithknight

 NightWrench wrote:
How I have missed Dakka and this thread. After a reboot of life...new position at work, divorce and a couple moves it is time to get back into 40k like I was a few months ago.

Back to the roots...been playing bugs since 1994, anyone need 4 pounds of a pewter carnifex? I bring him to every game and threaten my opponent with him if they cheat...

Anyway. I have bee thinking about this as a core of my list.

Flyrant - TL Dev x2 some eGrubs though I think a case can be made for shattershard with the eldar jetikes, just haven't done the math.
Flyrant - TL Dev x2 some eGrubs

Malanthrope

Ripper base x3 with DS
Ripper base x3 with DS

I have plenty of gaunts, magnetized carnifexes (4), plus the old pewter one...a mawloc, lots of gargoyles some lictors and more genestealers than should be allowed, a walking tyrant and another flyrant.

I am willing to spend a little bit of money. I have enough set aside for a couple of box sets or one big purchase.

I have been considering the lictor formation and or the Skyrant formation with the gargoyles. I am thinking MSU and honestly have thought about trying lots of 10 model gaunt squads with 5 devourers or even taking the spore formation.

Has anyone tried board control utilizing lots of small units of gaunts?