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Frazzled wrote:Let us all bask in the sweet image of Frazzled, running amok, one subdirectory at a time.

Who's the guy with the stick that is chasing you?

I say keep them in OT, or create sub-forum(s). If you don't like the subject matter of a thread, don't read it. If someone is being an idiot, ignore them or hit MOD Alert.

And I agree with a previous poster. Dakkadakka isn't a democracy and there is no freedom of speech. It's privately owned. Yakface can do what he likes, including kicking everyone off the board and making it a blog where he reports the "Best of... Space Hulk."

edit: Some of my view is that dakkadakka is not a place that I expect to have serious discussions about politics and religion. I might learn something new, might hear a different viewpoint, but I don't expect to change anyone's position. Also, how do you separate, in particular politics, from some topics? Is health care considered political? If you had a discussion about US Health care, I would expect the recent bills that have passed would be discussed. So, would a ban on politics lead to a ban on health care by default? Even sports can morph into a political discussion (i.e., "I think it's stupid that the NFL tests for marijuana. It shouldn't be illegal...."

dietrich wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Let us all bask in the sweet image of Frazzled, running amok, one subdirectory at a time.

Who's the guy with the stick that is chasing you?

Huh?

I always saw that as MOD Fraz chasing MOD Iorek...

No Lorek doesn't move that fast...ever. After a few years hitting the sterno, your movements take on a more shambly zombiesque quality to them.

I voted NO.

I used to be one of the biggest partakers in the religious discussions. Then I realized that nothing was being done about the way certain posters were being insulting towards religious people. There was a time when(I thought) you couldn't call someone stupid or slowed in the off topic. Then that seemed to change about 6 months ago. Now it seems it's ok to call people of faith stupid or slowed without consequence.

If the forum can't be moderated I say close it down.

GG

Lets not dumb down Dakka by ignoring controversial issues. Let me give a few reasons why.

Reasons to allow religious and political discourse to continue.

1. Statistical success.
Despite the frequent smartalecs posting 'IBL' comments appearing on politics and religion threads the vast majority are never locked. Most settle into a long informative discussion ending peacably.

2. Don't let the trolls win.
IBL comments is sourced from the fallacy that you cannot hold a religious or political discussion without overbearing emotional burdens. People who believe that should speak for themselves, not for others who show greater maturity.
Most IBL comments disappear by page two of a religion thread because they are ignored by level thinking individuals who are more interested in picking holes in the posts of political or religious opponents, while this can start heated most who stay for the discussions actually calm down once they get involved in a debate where poeple on both sides are trying to speak on the issues without anger.

3. Religious and political discussions tend to self Mod.
We know a troll when we see one and rebuff or ignore posts purely intended to denegrate a thread. New posts starting from a hostile viewpoint get a far better reception than most think. I have been trolled a few times but normally agree to disagree in the end. It is an exercise in tolerance.

4. Dakka is a good place to discuss controversial topics.
Because of the nature of the internet there are few places you can go and discuss religion and politics without meeting way too many trolls, and specific religion/politics forums are not recommended, they have more trolls not less. Because Dakka is primarily not a politics and religion site those who come to the threads normally have something interesting to say. Being here for gaming and staying for the religious or polirtical discourse normally gives you access to a better cross section of opinion than an alt relgion website where people with a particular bee in their bonnet specifically congregate to troll.

5. Wargamers are generally smart.
Wargamers are the second highest IQ group by hobby or social setting after astronomers. Miniatures gamer forums have a very high IQ average, this might not account for everyone, it is the internets after all but you might be suprised to find just how wide the knowledge base is here. Daak is a good place to go to debate with someone who can hold a heady conversation.

6. Dakka open OT policy breaks down borders.
As opposed to just breaking down as ther naysayers predict. Meeting rationally minded people with different worldviews and disagreeing civilly with them is very refreshing. It does not work all the time, but Dakka holds up far better than many think in this regards. offline people tend to congragate with their own kind, here on Dakka you meet people of widely different viewpoints and get the chance to learn what they think.
While some don't like to listen a large number of people on the religion and politics threads do. While changing someones opinion is an unrealistic goal changing ones perception of others is a realistic goal of frank discussion. a number of times theists and atheists arrive at a thread assuming something of the opposing sides opinions and leave with a better understanding of those they don't agree with. This doesn't change minds but it does change hearts, most people fear alternate worldviews out of ignorance, once you understand what the other guy thinks, as opposed to what you thought he thinks we being to see each other as rational people with alternate worldviews instead of fools or threats.

Reasons why censoring religious and political discourse hurts Dakka.

1. It's censorship!
Nuff said.

2. Mods will be playing whack-a-mole for years to come with borderline political threads.
I have seen this alot. Normally over the boundary of when politics becomes history, also military technology threads also are too close to politics. On some sites the Mods end up getting anal over this and you get lots of arguments over whether threads were political.

3. Religion and philosophy touch sides too.
Statistically this will be less of a problem because while new weapons etc will be frequent thread topics philosophy doesn't turn up as often. But it does and when it does and religion is banned you can have problems. The trouble is philosophical discussions can be very nebulous let me give you an example. I remember a thread on a no politics and no religion website where religion was being bashed under the moniker of 'atheism equals science', as science is not religion and science is not banned therefore atheism can be discussed. I waited until a couple of mods had posted on the thread doing nothing to stop the bash before pointing out, technically in violation of forum rules, that as atheism was one side of a religious debate the forum was being unfair to not allow fair response. The Mods got the message after that.
You see due to the blurred lines of philosophy people with an axe to grind can try to bash different religions on non-religious threads by relabeling their comments as something else. as philosophy is ultimately the art of relabelling and categorising ideas this can result in a quagmire for boundary definitions.

4. Don't throw away what we have achieved.
Dakka is close to getting a reputation as somewhere where you can have a controversial discussion with minimal trolling, a place where you can actually get the opposing view and question it ratioanlly before the thread is closed by a Mod or denegrates into a trollfest. We are winning against the internet meme that says you cannot prevail against the low standards expected of internet communities.
There are plenty of forums where this trend occurs, why wreck one where we are holding ground?

Why not split religion into it's own sub-forum.

Have OT and then have a sub of OT for P/R?

It sounds convoluted but that is one of the things I like about Warseer. 40k and Fantasy have their own sections so I can go into News and Rumors for 40k and not have to scroll down through a list of Fantasy or rumors concerning various mini manufacturers/foam producers.

I know Warseer gets lots of complaints but it's only because asshats post in the wrong thread multiple times and get banned and then come here and whine about it. You'd think posting a topic about Vampire Counts in the news and rumors thread in 40k would make most people pause before hitting submit and ask "does this really belong in 40k N&R?"

So I say split the OT up a little more. A section for P/R, a section for music discussion, and a section for discussing anything not P/R or music or whatever.

It keeps Warseer on track and neat (except for the occasional troll who purposely posts in wrong threads to rile people up).

IMO, Dakka has plenty enough forums. Do we really need forums for every little thing?

And if we're adding forums for stuff that we're generally interested in, how about adding one for posting pictures of pretty girls and fast cars? I'd far rather see the hot girl of the day, than another stupid thread about religion.

I'd actually be against further subforums actually. I'd rather keep the P&R in there than separate it, although I take issue with most R forums as attacks (most political ones are too, but they don't fall under Frazzled You Don't Feth with EEOC parties! Rule of Life).

JohnHwangDD wrote:And if we're adding forums for stuff that we're generally interested in, how about adding one for posting pictures of pretty girls and fast cars? I'd far rather see the hot girl of the day, than another stupid thread about religion.

You need to send Yak some cashola to access those......

Orlanth wrote:
5. Wargamers are generally smart....
1. It's censorship!
Nuff said.

I disagree, I think gamers are usually introverted social cripples, and generally, controversial topics of any stripe that are OT are a bad thing, the more polarized and controversial, the worse. Anonymity permits people to act in a manner in a forum which would be rare or in incredibly bad taste in public.

I don't even like the idea of an OT forum very much in the first place.

The internet is filled with places to go for that.

I voted no, get rid of them all, lock em down. Even just a few are bad, no good comes of it.

Augustus wrote:

I disagree, I think gamers are usually introverted social cripples...

Stringing three words like that together can generally offset any person, not matter the context.

I would have to disagree with your prognosis that gamers are "introverted social cripples." Any person can have a particularly sensitive topic they would not like to speak about or enrages them or like politics and religion have invited us to do in the OT forum, rant and make snide remarks with their peers who disagree with them.

Healty discussion is good. We all agree on that. Red-faced, shoe slamming on podium ranting is not a place in this forum to which we are guests. People who are closed minded and wish to cause trouble are not welcome here, and if closing off debate ensures that, then so be it.

But before I agree to cease and desist with all forms of political and religious debate, let's have an idea created where we can have moderators post the topic of debate. Have members PM mods so they can start the debate and make said debate more closely scrutinized or at the very least make it look like it will be closely monitered. It is the same system with polls that are created in this forum when someone wants a poll conducted.

Hopefully filtering through the moderators could make debate on p/r more palpable.

Introverted social cripples?

I don't think augustus has met the right gamers. LOL

GG

Orlanth makes his points more eloquently than I have managed to and I hope people will give them some serious scrutiny. So far, the major arguments offered by users favoring a prospective ban are "I don't like those threads," "they are nothing but trouble," and "there are other fora on the internet." IMO, these don't hold up well against the points that Orlanth just made.

cause people like me don't read them unless we want to (which is never) I can't understand why you would ban them.

If people don't like them, don't click on them, let alone read and post on them.

lets all be grown ups.

I actually get alot of political news from the OT section. I also think people should be allowed to speak about religion and politics as long as they can keep composure. I think people that get all bent out of shape, or get to insulting when speaking about should be punished themselves. Not punishing everyone else.

Why take them off? We're all grown ups, or at least playing in the big boy park....

I voted to keep them as viable topics

Whats the point of having an OT forum on dakka if it doesnt involve an anything goes concept?

It worked well for the OT forums in the past. Debates always get heated. So what?

If you dont want it part of Dakka, Yakface. Its understandable, but why go through the effort in creating it in the first place?

OT forums outside of dakka but closely associated with dakka has worked for over a decade and will continue to function. For a long time it was arguably the main reason why Dakka continued to exist when Russ's interest in this site waned. You're welcome.

If you choose Dakka as your medium for such discussions you have already discredited yourself and so it should not matter whether or not Dakka permits it because no one should listen/read or respond.

However, I believe that off topic forum should be open for healthy criticism of the hobby. For example, there is plenty of room to argue the images and depictions of death, destruction, apocalyptic future, satanism, and well slaanesh haha are not appropriate for individuals, groups, classes or what have you. (This is not my opinion but an example of an opinion someone may come to Dakka to sound off about)

As Captain Hook would say,

"Bad form, Bad form indeed."

Let's keep on topic, good gaming and painting please.

Deuce11 wrote:If you choose Dakka as your medium for such discussions you have already discredited yourself and so it should not matter whether or not Dakka permits it because no one should listen/read or respond.

This comment makes me happy. I like it when people who disagree with me say silly things.

Da Boss wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:If you choose Dakka as your medium for such discussions you have already discredited yourself and so it should not matter whether or not Dakka permits it because no one should listen/read or respond.

This comment makes me happy. I like it when people who disagree with me say silly things.

It was certainly more than a little malicious, and makes you wonder why he's posting here himself.

As long as they stay in the off-topic forum, they should be around. There's no point in having so many diverse people here and not sharing opinions and beliefs. We'll never learn anything, never grow, never be better, and will be destined to repeat the terrible errors of the past. But, those things should stay in that forum. I don't want my tactics/YMDC/News & Rumors filled with political/religious views. Everything has its place.

I'd just like to point out that (as of my writing) the front page of the Off Topic section has a nine page thread about Richard Dawkins trying to arrest the Pope for covering cases of child molestation, a four page thread about the American civil war and slavery, a three page thread about elections in the UK, and a three page thread about military history. None of these have been locked. Of the three threads that are locked, one was cross-forum drama, one was a political thread necromancy'd, and one was a religious troll thread that was immediately recognized as being a troll thread by everyone, and promptly locked.

On the second page of the thread there is one political discussion locked because of the conflict it caused, and a political thread locked because it was both trollish and was duplicated by a better written thread. There are also three non-political/religious threads locked, one vague philosophical thread locked, one political thread locked for necromancy, and one spam thread locked. Threads that have gone on for more than one page and haven't been locked include a thread about American healthcare reform, a thread about a video showing civilian casualties being killed in Iraq (which was the counterpart to the locked thread mentioned earlier), a thread about the federal deficit and the state of the economy in the United States, a thread on the prison and criminal justice systems, and a thread about Westboro Baptist protesting the funerals of dead soldiers because of their opposition to homosexuality.

While a lot of people are saying "these things never work out!", or "it's just a recipe for disaster!", how many are basing their opinions on actual experience with the Off Topic forum? I'm consistently impressed by the level of thought that goes into many of the posts there.

Personally I dislike discussing Politics and Religion in general. That said I don't think that they should be outlawed. I feel that the OT forum is the place these should be and hopefully someone would have the decency to not post in a thread that they are not interested in, and/or that they have nothing to add to.
They are topics that to some are worth the discussion. Often times I see people bring issues like these up among their peers to both get to know them better but to also better understand their views.
Its unfortunate that some find the need to be hateful to others in response to said subjects, but I think there is still a place for those threads if people are both willing to post them and others are willing to respond to them.

Cheers,
~Volkan

DD is a community.

Providing a forum for the community to discuss things outside the umbrella reason they are here for is a reasonable thing to do. Given the diverse views and collisions that occur over the umbrella reason we are all here, it is to be expected that the community will have widely diverse views when it comes to matters of religion and politics.

What needs reiteration is Rule #1. If that is maintained and the seriousness of suspensions and perma-bans are driven home, then we should have fewer problems in the OT.

I have certainly enjoyed real debate over matters of theology and political view, I have also witnessed real arse-hats in operation in the OT and that needs a sound kicking.

I have one poster on ignore on the entirety of dakka, due to his endless hateful incitement, permitted on the OT for what reason I cannot fathom. Those are the types of people who need permanent takedown.

Orlanth wrote:Wargamers are the second highest IQ group by hobby or social setting after astronomers.

As flattering as that is where did you pull it from?

We should allow the political and religious conversations to go on.

Partly because it would really screw up any discussion of current events in the OT forum. Mostly because the grey area this creates is way too large.

How about we just kill the OT forum altogether?

Augustus wrote:How about we just kill the OT forum altogether?

Banning political and religious discussion amounts to this, IMO. And, how about we don't?

Augustus wrote:How about we just kill the OT forum altogether?

How about you just don't visit it? Problem solved, for you at least.

Me? I don't see the point in a video-games discussion section, so I don't hang out there. I just figure enough people use it to warrant it's continued existence.