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weeble1000 wrote:

morkian wrote:
Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

It'll be hard for even GW to spin spending 1 million dollars to prove that anyone in the wargaming industry can do this:

They tried to spin shutting down the facebook group as good for the consumer as it meant more face to face interaction in stores.

I think we'll get a statement something along these lines.

"This judgement and the award of $25,000 shows that GW were correct to pursue this case and we feel vindicated that the court has agreed that CHS were infringing on GW intellectual property. We can now move forward knowing we have a legal precedent to go after other manufacturers and can take legal action against them knowing we are correct."

Those who actually look at the case may realise the actual implications but the award allows them to spin it enough to those who don't, and I fully expect them to spin like mad to justify what this has cost them in legal fees.

You missed a "This is great news!' at the end there.

Wow, I've been following this from the get go. I almost can't believe it's done.

privateer4hire wrote:
So GW made back equivalent of around 3333 landraiders in fines?

That said, I think the 25k in fines will put off some potential garage/hobby shed manufacturers who won't want to chance it.

Understood the case lays down a path for 3rd party stuff---but the bottom line loss in time and fines will help keep the masses from getting too high in their aspirations.

Now then, what are the chance of appeal on either/both sides?

'round my neck of the woods its only 267 landraiders, not sure where you got your three thousand land raiders from.

Well, this has smashed the gates, though they still stand. Someone could easily come at them now with a crow bar and pry them open wider. My understanding is the experts weren't focusing on the fantasy stuff so much, so if push came to shove with some new manufacturer that produced dark elves... well... I don't think it would go well for GW. As it stand I can't imagine either side wanting to appeal this, as I think GW came out with more than should have been expected, and CHS got a slap on the wrist, so I don't think they'd want to risk paying more for getting the same result.

This sets a definite legal precedent for what is absolutely allowed. It'll provide a major shield for other 3rd party companies, which I think is a great thing. More variety in the market only serves to make it better for us, the consumer.

25k really is nothing. GW's spin is... hilarious and sad.

 Lint wrote:
Wow, I've been following this from the get go. I almost can't believe it's done.

this chapter might be done, but, rest assured, it isn't done. There's the immediate fallout still needing dealing with, and then there's the market fallout as well.

It's called jacking up the decimal
So that would be 333 LandRaiders----even more pathetic.

GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

JWhex wrote:
GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

It won't make a difference? In a year's time, when you google "Space Marine Accessories" you won't get a GW website at the top of the search results.

As much of a focus as there is on the Space Marine side of things, I think there's a significant portion in the xenos side of the game as well.

Weapon options currently unavailable due to old casts of models? Warp spiders, for example, without power blades and instead with... I dunno, a spinneret rifle.

Tyranid models that might actually have biomorphs?

JWhex wrote:
GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

i'm sorry, and their shareholders are goign to be jumping with joy when they find out that the hold over the market has been diluted?

And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

morkian wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

morkian wrote:
Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

It'll be hard for even GW to spin spending 1 million dollars to prove that anyone in the wargaming industry can do this:

They tried to spin shutting down the facebook group as good for the consumer as it meant more face to face interaction in stores.

I think we'll get a statement something along these lines.

"This judgement and the award of $25,000 shows that GW were correct to pursue this case and we feel vindicated that the court has agreed that CHS were infringing on GW intellectual property. We can now move forward knowing we have a legal precedent to go after other manufacturers and can take legal action against them knowing we are correct."

Those who actually look at the case may realise the actual implications but the award allows them to spin it enough to those who don't, and I fully expect them to spin like mad to justify what this has cost them in legal fees.

Yeah, but that's for the laymen. No matter how GW want to spin it, it's gone down the way it has in legal records. This will be a reference case for likely many future cases under common law following the law of precedent cases.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

After following this thread(and reading it) since before I made an account here, it's good to see it finally settled after 165+ pages. Does anyone have any information as to when the final judgement will be known? Or was this the final judgement? It was made to seem to be the jury's verdict.

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

Was it 400k a year? I thought it was 400k over four years.

Either way, I'm sure that bankruptcy won't be a problem. 25k really is not that much money today.

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

Yeah, it's not nothing, and hitting all at once is not good either. But it's not millions in statutory damages and destroy all your moulds please.

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

I thought his Overseas partner, was the one taking in 3,000, while he was taking in 7,000.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Use a different term than "Dark" to describe your elves? "Drow" is taken, fyi.

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

Then again, I believe all new releases have been on hold for quite some time. Assuming Nick hasn't just sat on his hands this whole time, its quite possible there's a whole bunch of new stuff ready to go, or designed at least, which could help generate some fresh income.

 Breotan wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Use a different term than "Dark" to describe your elves? "Drow" is taken, fyi.

You do know that the term "Dark Elf" wouldn't pertain to every use of it ever, and only in realms GW actually has a trademark for it (without trying to look it up I'm guessing this is pretty strictly tabletop wargames), right?

JWhex wrote:
GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

I actually agree with you here.. I don't think this will make that much difference.

Most people (or the 'casual' purchaser perhaps) will continue to buy the standard kits, and not even be aware of the existence of the likes of CHS or other companies.

For the more experienced and avid collector they will simply be able to continue buying the alternative bits that they always have.. and as you say, those shoulder pads still need marines to sit on. Somewhat ironically, now a precedent has been set and the situation 'stabilised' to a degree, more people might make the plunge and actually start to get back into the GW core games because of the extra and more diverse options open to them.. although of course this will be nothing like enough to offset the rather incredible amount of money and effort that GW has sunk into this case for the past few years.

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

That was what he was making for personal income from CHS, with a partner making $2k (iirc). Personal income doesn't necessarily equal out to total business profit per month. It's hard to judge off of just those two things how much the business is actually bringing in over costs, since you generally want to set aside some of that profit to help grow the business.

If you can't have the dark, then...

Gentlemen, I propose that in the future all malevolent elven aliens covered in spiky bits be called Grim Elves.

In the grim darkness of the future, there are only elves...

 Specs wrote:
If you can't have the dark, then...

Gentlemen, I propose that in the future all malevolent elven aliens covered in spiky bits be called Grim Elves.

worse comes to worse, we'll give all of the elves fedoras and cigarettes, and call them Noir Elves.

 derek wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

That was what he was making for personal income from CHS, with a partner making $2k (iirc). Personal income doesn't necessarily equal out to total business profit per month. It's hard to judge off of just those two things how much the business is actually bringing in over costs, since you generally want to set aside some of that profit to help grow the business.

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Heh. Just thought of something. 25k is the small claims limit in my jurisdiction.

czakk wrote:
Heh. Just thought of something. 25k is the small claims limit in my jurisdiction.

what;s your jurisdiction? I think it's $20K in alberta....