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You can try to rationalize it, but it's just gilding thin air, the closer you look at it the more it breaks down.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Therion, I understand where you are coming from, but this is commonplace in a lot of Sci Fi.

Look at Battletech. It's almost the exact same story. A dozen dropships land at key cities/points/facilities and destroy the highest grade resistance on the planet and win the whole thing. Move on, and repeat on the next planet.

40k, in my mind is no different in this aspect.

On the other hand, with some imagination, it wouldn't be too hard to believe that if say; some country/nation was invaded by soldiers that are nearly impossible to kill and can kill 20+ soldiers for every one they lose, have your country 100% blockaded from land, sea, and air, and also poses the ability to turn your entire country into smoldering ash with a few pieces of ordinance.... that country would surrender wholesale.

If aliens showed up tomorrow and demonstrated their ability to turn Earth into a fireball or slag all living life with a virus, are you going to lead the revolt?

This pretty much, alot of people forget that being invaded by a marine chapter means much more than having a few super soldiers to contend with. It means that the Imperium of Mankind has thought you enough of a problem to dispatch its forces, which also means that should the marines fail they will just destroy your planet since there are a million other planets that are in compliance. In the fluff many times entire planets surrenders at mere sight of a chapter of marines because of that implication.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
So, any guesses over what the new terrain pieces will be? I don't think there's anything the GW terrain range needs per se, other than variety, which wouldnt be the kind of thing they'd likely to do.

A defence laser would be nice, though.

Yeah let's get back on topic.

A Warhound or a Knight doesn't really fit Space Marines, but it would serve as a kit that works for Chaos too. However since they're getting the Khorne-thing the chances of people getting an Imperial/Chaos Scout Titan are small.

A landraider variant or fellblade would be another logical choice for SM besides a plastic Thunderhawk, but FW too has those option covered.

I can see there's no getting through to you really.

A bolter fires a 30mm round that explodes on impact and that's the base round. The same size as the average gun on a fighter plane in the U.S. Armed Forces. Modern armor doesn't seem to have an answer for that.

Space Marines don't have to sleep or eat and can operate for weeks on end. The operate in the harshest conditions unaffected. They are immune to nearly all toxins.

It's all a combination of fact and fiction. Some amount of detachment from reality is required. I can't continue this conversation because I will never make any headway regardless of what I say.

[Edit] On topic... GW has a knack for retconning, so at this point it could literally be anything they want to make.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
You can try to rationalize it, but it's just gilding thin air, the closer you look at it the more it breaks down.

I can see there's no getting through to you really.

The US have ten thousand Abrams tanks alone. It's a tank much more advanced (by about 50 years) than say a Leman Russ. How many Space Marines does it take to defeat an Abrams MBT? It's just absolutely terrible when you realise that the US military alone could defeat half the armed forces of the Imperium that is supposed to control billions (do you understand the word billions) of star systems during an age with all imaginable technologies available to it. The scale of both space and of populations required and of armed conflicts is so wrong its unreal and nothing you can do to rationalise it with GW's pseudo science ("it works despite making no sense because we have this whateverdevice") regarding their troop armour and weapons will justify it.

 Therion wrote:

Let's assume it was possible during war time (which it isn't) to drop a few tactical squads of Space Marines to destroy whoever world leader like the president of USA or a few commie dictators in China. You hypothetically succeed. What now? Is the war over? My friend the war just got started and it won't be over in a hundred years unless there's an Imperial Guard soldier and a tank in every street corner of every city in the world twenty four seven. The whole surgical strike story is just bad science fiction. There's a role for surgical strikes but all it does is disrupt the enemy chain of command for a very small period of time (less than a day in some cases) and that's it.

In most cases rebellious planets are situations where the governor has been corrupted (by chaos or aliens) or for some other reason decided to give finger to the Imperium. In such situations killing the leadership may indeed end the conflict. And yes, in many cases it could also lead to unrest and anarchy, but that's IG's problem. Marines kill the rebel leaders, declare victory and move on.

(I actually agree that SM Chapters are too small, but MO would have to be the same even if they were ten times larger. They'd still lack numbers to conquer entire planet in conventional manner.)

GW has a knack for retconning, so at this point it could literally be anything they want to make.

I'm fine with a little ret conning but when all of a sudden Titans are piloted by Space Marines and painted in Blood Angels colours instead of the Adeptus Titanicus then stuff has gotten a bit out of hand.

(I actually agree that SM Chapters are too small, but MO would have to be the same even if they were ten times larger. They'd still lack numbers to conquer entire planet in conventional manner.)

They'd lack the numbers even if they were a hundred times larger, in many cases a thousand times larger, but yet in the fluff they conquer planets time and time again. Don't worry, the size of IG regiments and the troop mobilisations mentioned are way too small as well. In GW's world 50000 Imperial Guard is an army ready for Space Crusade. It's a fly's piss in the Atlantic ocean. I was just reading some Chaos stuff where 10000 Khorne Marines assaulted out of EoT and conquered a dozen sectors before stopped. Yeah, ten thousand guys with personal armour and chainsaws just came and conquered fifty defended planets. If they landed in Mexico they wouldn't get past the border before they were all dead Some drug cartel infantry with some US air support could probably already take em out

Again, there's no point.

Weren't Termites a Space Marine thing in Epic? That would be pretty cool.

It's been so long I can't recall.

 TalonZahn wrote:
I can see there's no getting through to you really.

A bolter fires a 30mm round that explodes on impact and that's the base round. The same size as the average gun on a fighter plane in the U.S. Armed Forces. Modern armor doesn't seem to have an answer for that.

Space Marines don't have to sleep or eat and can operate for weeks on end. The operate in the harshest conditions unaffected. They are immune to nearly all toxins.

It's all a combination of fact and fiction. Some amount of detachment from reality is required. I can't continue this conversation because I will never make any headway regardless of what I say.

[Edit] On topic... GW has a knack for retconning, so at this point it could literally be anything they want to make.

Incorrect. 30mm is only used on the A-10, no other "fighter" sized aircraft mounts anything that size. Standard gun on nearly all of our fighters is the M61A1 20mm cannon.

The forces against which we've shot the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger cannon have not been using the most modern tanks, protected by the most modern armors. What the terminal performance of 3000-6000 RPM of 30mm against an Abrams, I do not know, but I do know that the Abrams' armor has bounced friendly fire and attempts to destroy abandoned tanks with the same gun and AT ammunition used by the Abrams itself. If you're seriously saying that a man-portable 30mm mini-rocket is likely to swiss cheese an Abrams...


How about considering cultural standpoint, too? The Imperium is deathly afraid of technical innovation. We, on the other hand, are going to be working overtime during the conflict to reverse engineer anything and everything that's valuable and recovered. Just think what we could do with the kind of power sources that the imperium has access to, yet doesn't even remotely understand.

We, on the other hand, are going to be working overtime during the conflict to reverse engineer anything and everything that's valuable and recovered. Just think what we could do with the kind of power sources that the imperium has access to, yet doesn't even remotely understand.

Hilariously enough when the US armed forces look at the air forces and ground armour of the Imperium there's nothing there to reverse engineer. Their air support flies on hopes and dreams, the tanks are from world war two and Titans are the most idiotic idea ever being a massive target that will get destroyed by missiles and airforces from miles away before it ever gets to shoot at a living thing. The only thing we'd want is teleportation and power generation for space travel.

 Therion wrote:

We, on the other hand, are going to be working overtime during the conflict to reverse engineer anything and everything that's valuable and recovered. Just think what we could do with the kind of power sources that the imperium has access to, yet doesn't even remotely understand.

Hilariously enough when the US armed forces look at the air forces and ground armour of the Imperium there's nothing there to reverse engineer. Their air support flies on hopes and dreams, the tanks are from world war two and Titans are the most idiotic idea ever being a massive target that will get destroyed by missiles and airforces from miles away before it ever gets to shoot at a living thing. The only thing we'd want is teleportation and power generation for space travel.

Power generation for the battlefield gear, too. Just imagine the kinds of weapons we could put into use with an understanding of the power cells that are used on a lascannon. Or even just the possibilities in the generator backpack that every suit of power armor in the Imperium uses.

EDIT: I also very deliberately used that word, understanding. We would break it down, take it apart, and seek to understand how it works, and start serious thought to how we can make it work better. That cultural difference is a huge advantage. That's what happens when you don't pray to your batteries and ask them nicely, pretty please with some blessed oils on top, to function.

You are correct, the A10 is the only 30mm cannon. No Abrams has ever bounced fire from that gun. If it has, you better cite that in a report. As for "modern armor" you are correct again, because there are only a handful of nations that operate what is considered "modern armor"

This thing is WAY off topic and totally pointless. If you can't suspend belief for some Sci-Fi and it's making your head hurt, what the hell are you doing here anyway?

They're toys, it's Sci-Fi..... it's kind of the entire point.....

So let's skip to the end... the mighty forces of Earth kill the 100 Space Marines they sent with our tens of thousands of tanks and while they cower in their Strike Cruiser as we reverse engineer their tech..... they jam a dozen Cyclonic Torpedoes up our can.

Where's your God now?

Sci-Fi....How does it work?

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Exterminatus - mmmmm... 16 billion people killed in minutes by a virus.

So let's skip to the end... the mighty forces of Earth kill the 100 Space Marines they sent with our tens of thousands of tanks and while they cower in their Strike Cruiser as we reverse engineer their tech..... they jam a dozen Cyclonic Torpedoes up our can.

Where's your God now?

Sci-Fi....

That's the only thing they got going for them. Being in the orbit while we're down here. Give us 100 years. Better than that, gives us knowledge that an assault from space is imminent and we'll be ready in 20. Then we'll conquer the Imperium with the forces of our one planet alone.

That wasn't what we were debating though. We were debating the background material of ground conflicts where civilisations much more advanced than ours cave in the face of a bunch of guys on steroids wielding chainsaws. And make no mistake, a couple hundred guys at that.

I don't have a problem with suspension of disbelief. I can read this crap about weapons and war stratagems that only work in Gav Thorpe's head. What frustrates me is that simple idiocy regarding numbers, scale and distances. You can write the same story and have Space Marine chapters hold 100K Marines and Imperial Guard regiments a million guys each, but I guess it wouldn't be as heroic if Captain Ventris couldn't rescue planetary sectors on his own.

 Therion wrote:
That's the only thing they got going for them. Being in the orbit while we're down here. Give us 100 years. Then we'll conquer the Imperium with the forces of our one planet alone.

That wasn't what we were debating though. We were debating the background material of ground conflicts where civilisations much more advanced than ours cave in the face of a bunch of guys on steroids wielding chainsaws.

You realize we are Terra in 40k right?

We don't need to conquer the Imperium, we ARE the Imperium.....

Also, remind me again how European Settlers conquered what is now estimated to be around 50 million Native Americans, or the British over India, or Spain over most of Central America, or....

[Edit] On your Edit, it's the same way in Real Life too. You hear about Michael Wittmam, Ernst Barkman, Patton, Rommel, Nelson, Washington... the "heroes", not the cannon fodder...doesn't matter if it was 10 or 10,000.

 TalonZahn wrote:

Weren't Termites a Space Marine thing in Epic? That would be pretty cool.

Yes. Hellbores carried like 100 marines.

We don't need to conquer the Imperium, we ARE the Imperium.....

What's this nonsense?

The moment when you realise the guy you're talking to is a child.

It's frustrating.

We aren't the Imperium. The Imperium is a sci-fi setting written by a bunch of British garage gamers with no higher academic education nor military training or understanding of any kind and who like painting toy soldiers. Since you think their setting holds against critical inspection regarding any sort of realism maybe you'll fit right in.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:

Weren't Termites a Space Marine thing in Epic? That would be pretty cool.

Yes. Hellbores carried like 100 marines.

We need Termites.

Isn't there a Nid that comes up from underground?

Termite: Deep Strike style attack, can scatter but suffers no perils, does damage if it comes up under a unit, can assault from on the turn it arrives.

 TalonZahn wrote:
You are correct, the A10 is the only 30mm cannon. No Abrams has ever bounced fire from that gun. If it has, you better cite that in a report. As for "modern armor" you are correct again, because there are only a handful of nations that operate what is considered "modern armor"

.

I never said it has. It wouldn't surprise me if we'd tested it, though. Maybe one of my former co-workers who used to work in test has more insight.

Either way, though, the A-10 DU round weighs 15 oz and has a muzzle velocity of about 3500 fps. The M829A1 APDS round for the Abrams weighs 46 pounds (736 oz) with a muzzle velocity of 5170 fps. Are you trying to tell me that armor that has, on the battlefield and at close range, bounced the ADPS, will be popped by the slower, massively lighter weight GAU-8 round? Seriously?

GAU-8 on an Abrams, simply by a factor of the rate of fire, will get a mobility kill. Nothing more. In terms of the damage chart, that's a result of "immobilized" with no hull point loss.

 Therion wrote:
What's this nonsense?

The moment when you realise the guy you're talking to is a child.

It's frustrating.

We aren't the Imperium. The Imperium is a sci-fi setting written by a bunch of British garage gamers with no higher academic education nor military training or understanding of any kind and who like painting toy soldiers. Since you think their setting holds against critical inspection regarding any sort of realism maybe you'll fit right in.

Oh, that's not nice.

Name calling isn't good for you.

The entire story is based around world history in a Sci-Fi setting.

I'm really done debating this now.

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Therion wrote:
That's the only thing they got going for them. Being in the orbit while we're down here. Give us 100 years. Then we'll conquer the Imperium with the forces of our one planet alone.

That wasn't what we were debating though. We were debating the background material of ground conflicts where civilisations much more advanced than ours cave in the face of a bunch of guys on steroids wielding chainsaws.

You realize we are Terra in 40k right?

We don't need to conquer the Imperium, we ARE the Imperium.....

Also, remind me again how European Settlers conquered what is now estimated to be around 50 million Native Americans, or the British over India, or Spain over most of Central America, or....

[Edit] On your Edit, it's the same way in Real Life too. You hear about Michael Wittmam, Ernst Barkman, Patton, Rommel, Nelson, Washington... the "heroes", not the cannon fodder...doesn't matter if it was 10 or 10,000.

Most of them had already died due to famine from having deforested most of the continent a couple hundred years before Europeans showed up, and disease that was aided hugely by said famine?

shade1313 wrote:

GAU-8 on an Abrams, simply by a factor of the rate of fire, will get a mobility kill. Nothing more. In terms of the damage chart, that's a result of "immobilized" with no hull point loss.

Additionally you should factor in the fact that when GW assigned calibers to their weapons they just copypasted random numbers off the internet. At no point do they understand what it means or how deadly it should be, how much ammo it should hold and where its stored etc. That's why in one theory the Space Marine bolter should be some type of equivalent to that on a Warthog, but in game terms it cannot penetrate the armour of even the lightest personnel carrier and has a 66% chance of wounding a man in a t-shirt. You'll find the same type of technological gaffes when you read the 'specs' of a Leman Russ from one of those old WD articles that were written while Gav Thorpe was taking a dump. I remember when people applied the specs onto the model and realised that in the real world the Leman Russ is more the size of a large RC-car than a tank

My sources (for what they are worth) say that Space Marines will not be getting any new vehicles in the Apocalypse release, but they can expect a very large flier with their codex around October / November.

Apparently, it's going to come with a suitably scary price tag; significantly less than the FW Thunderhawk, but more than the $200 US figure that people have been hoping for...

but they can expect a very large flier with their codex around October / November.

Atleast it's a Space Marine vehicle that exists in the fluff. They should've given Chaos a corrupted scout Titan though instead of that thing on wheels. A missed opportunity to make a lot of money, then.

Slaanesh Subjugator could have been cool.

 TalonZahn wrote:
You are correct, the A10 is the only 30mm cannon. No Abrams has ever bounced fire from that gun. If it has, you better cite that in a report. As for "modern armor" you are correct again, because there are only a handful of nations that operate what is considered "modern armor"

The M1 Abrams had a 105mm cannon. In the Gulf War when attempting to destroy disabled M1 Abrams they found that it could take multiple rounds from another M1 Abrams (at 105mm) to its rear armor (weakest protection) without being destroyed. Thus brought about the M1A1 Abrams with a 120mm cannon....because they wanted to at least have a chance to penetrate a vehicle of similar armor.

An RPG-7 penetrates up to 300mm of armor. And doesn't do much to an Abrams.
Gau-8 penetrates up to 38mm of armor at optimal distance.

The Warthog once all the Oooos and Ahhhhs are taken away is an amazing jet. That kills vehicles and soft targets with a BFG and tanks with the crap ton of anti-tank missiles it carries (there is a reason why it carries anti-tank missiles).

Of course all of this is moot because the Bolter is .75 cal. Which is the size of a 12 gauge shotgun round. An thus would look like the A-12 shotguns grenade shell.


Any whooooo....... why have I not heard anything else on those Necron models!!!? I am predicting that the "closed" version is actually just the Monolith. Seeing as it has 4 Gauss flayer arrays and all that jazz.

I can't believe you guys are arguing about Earth vs. IoM, seriously go to the off topic forum.

That Korn warmachine thing looks bloody retardo. I'm sick of these retardo looking "big" vehicle models kick GW is on. Both the Tau and Eldar fluff seem to contradict the use of large hard to hide battle suits that can be out outmaneuver pretty easily, arn't Eldar and Tau all about outmaneuvering their enemys?
I swear GW is pushing these large retardo models just for the sake of it without second thought. I never played Epic but I would think the blood god would want a machine that would shed blood, not just shoot people into a red mist?... meh...oh well.......

So- open megalith- what are your bets? Super transporter, or Death Ray?

I'm on the side of Death Ray, probably based around teleporting asteroids out of thin air at you, or something equally over the top.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.

The Space Marines also, in theory, had a dedicated apocalypse unit, albeit one that was just a land raider with some predator weapons added.

Perfect Organism wrote:
My sources (for what they are worth) say that Space Marines will not be getting any new vehicles in the Apocalypse release, but they can expect a very large flier with their codex around October / November.

Apparently, it's going to come with a suitably scary price tag; significantly less than the FW Thunderhawk, but more than the $200 US figure that people have been hoping for...

If there is a plastic Thunderhawk I think we'll be looking at $250 US, maybe even $299 ($300).

The Space Marines also, in theory, had a dedicated apocalypse unit, albeit one that was just a land raider with some predator weapons added.

Yes, they had datasheets and units, every army did, that's not a large dedicated kit produced specifically for Apocalypse that is larger than a Land Raider.

Though I am proud of my Land Raider Ultra conversion: