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macldef wrote:

Hi,

the Hierrofant cant be easily instantkilled, you need to roll a 6 followed by a 5 on the D-Table IF IT HAS 10 Wounds - we dont know yet! If hit by a D weapon you roll on this table:

1 No wound
2-5 D3+1 Wound
6 D6+6 Wounds

Wow, so my revenant with 2 pulsars will basically kill it shooting at it once? 8 wounds almost guaranteed.

A lot of D weapons have heavy 2, sometimes more.

You are right, its hard. Same with my Warhoundtitan. But its not one Hit. And this is all assuming that thing has 10 Hitpoints - wich i dont think it will have. The Nurgle-Kugath Greaterdaemon has 7 Hitpoints at about 300 Points...

Another thing: You can kill Titans/Superheavys just as quickly. 9 Hullpoints... no problem.

Unless your pure deamon army, this aint looking good for my army, take d hits on the way in, then smash it down (if anything capable gets there) then d hit when it blows up. Yikes!! Oh well looks like a khonedozer for me. At least it'll draw fire. If a Titan turns up I'll not bother deploying as I can't see any half decent player allowing any mc to even get close.

BUT I will wait untill sat and once I've had a chance to read the book before crying in corner.

Same here,

+ Apo is designed to be played by "friends" - you where able to ruin an apogame with cheese in the last version - you can probably ruin it now. Play it Storytelling and everythin is fine.

Editied - system double posted




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

dlight wrote:
Spamming flyers in the Apoc environment I play in is a very bad idea. There is so much AA on the table, they pretty much blow up as soon as they come in.
I rarely take them anymore. I may take the 3x Heldrake formation (because it starts on the table). But I don't expect it to last more than 1-2 turns.

Unless of course you bring an Apocalypse-specific army with 999999999999 Basilisks, in which case all AA is dead by the end of the first shooting phase.

Which really highlights the problem with GW's idiotic design for Apocalypse (only made worse by the new interceptor quad lascannon spam): if you bring a "fluff" army you get tabled even more effortlessly than in in normal 40k. If you design an army for Apocalypse you win. So whoever has the most money to spend on stuff they'll never use in a normal game wins, and everyone else just brings the targets.

You should have a discussion with your opponent before the game. I can bring Apoc armies that will destroy most players, but it doesn't mean I have to do it.

Apoc is supposed to be about both players having fun (this is emphasized in the rules). If I know my opponents collection is limitied, no super heavies, little AA, etc; I will bring an army that will challenge but not bend him over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skullhammer wrote:
Unless your pure deamon army, this aint looking good for my army, take d hits on the way in, then smash it down (if anything capable gets there) then d hit when it blows up. Yikes!! Oh well looks like a khonedozer for me. At least it'll draw fire. If a Titan turns up I'll not bother deploying as I can't see any half decent player allowing any mc to even get close.

BUT I will wait untill sat and once I've had a chance to read the book before crying in corner.

I would stay away from the Khornedozer. Too many points for what you get.

The Forgeworld Daemon Lord of Change is your best bet. It can reliably destroy a titan in 1 turn of shooting. Forge World will hopefully update it's rules in their next Apoc book.

Hopefully, the daemon lords will be able to use their invulns against D weapons, or will have some other protection added into their rules. As it stands, whoever goes first wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did some more digging on the rumors. D-Weapons don't instant kill gargantuan creatures. This is how it works:

You roll on the table instead of rolling to wound or armour penetration. No saves of any kind (even invulnerable, Feel No Pain or Necron Reanimation Protocols) can be taken against them now.

vs vehicles D6 roll:

1= target suffers penetrating hit.
2-5 Super heavies lose D3+1 hull points, other normal vehicles suffer
Explode! result.
6= as above but D6 +6 hull points lost for super heavies.

vs non-vehicle D6 roll:

1= avoid shot
2-5 model loses D3+1 wounds (I like this as monstrous creatures can
survive 2 or 3 shots now so daemons and tyranids will be happy)
6= D6+6 wounds

The last table count for gargantuan creatures as well.

dlight wrote:


The Forgeworld Daemon Lord of Change is your best bet. It can reliably destroy a titan in 1 turn of shooting.... As it stands, whoever goes first wins.

It makes me wish they'd taken the opportunity to revamp 40k somewhat (in either 6E or just the new Apoc) by adopting an "I go, you go" turn system like Epic Armageddon. Something like:

Player 1 picks a unit, moves / shoots / assaults with it,
Player 2 picks a unit, moves / shoots / assaults with it,
Player 1 picks another unit, etc...

Not only does that reduce the scope for decimating an opponent on turn 1 from massed firepower, but it makes the game generally more engaging as you're performing your own actions more often rather than just rolling dice for saving throws every so often. That issue is especially apparent in Apoc, where a single player turn can easily take an hour. No wonder some people find Apoc dull.

Apoc really IS all about not playing with TFG.

So sounds like it will be just like 4th edition: you play within a set of restrictions and its fun, you don't, and one guy loads up on D-weapons (or pulsa rockets in the old apoc book) and the game is an exercise in removing models from the table.

Yeah, I agree with ozy and shade, its all about who you play with and working out balanced sides. We don't play apoc with just anyone, our apoc games are always planned out around a month in advance and all except one was fun for all players involved.

We usually limited our forces to a few superheavies or formations per side. The only superheavy we never restricted was the baneblade because it actually felt reasonable to all parties involved. We never downgraded d weapons but we also didn't field crazy amounts, maybe 1-2 d guns per player.

 Boblogik wrote:
Yeah, I agree with ozy and shade, its all about who you play with and working out balanced sides. We don't play apoc with just anyone, our apoc games are always planned out around a month in advance and all except one was fun for all players involved.

We usually limited our forces to a few superheavies or formations per side. The only superheavy we never restricted was the baneblade because it actually felt reasonable to all parties involved. We never downgraded d weapons but we also didn't field crazy amounts, maybe 1-2 d guns per player.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I am considering dropping a player from my regular Apoc opponents.
He tends to complain and b itch the entire game (unless he is winning). Our last Apoc game we set aside an entire Saturday to play. He threw a fit because I took Epidemius and maxed the tally turn 1, and called the game early.
That left a sour taste in my mouth. I have had to unfortunately put up with it for a while because there are not a lot of gamers into Apoc in my area. However, I am done with him. It is just not an enjoyable experience.

Yeah dlight, people like that no one needs or wants around a gaming table.

Personally i have only played about 3 apoc games before and have enjoyed them a lot, i wish i could play more apoc size and hope to do this in the near future, especially since i'll have something else than a Pylon super heavy that i can put down.

No, D-weapons are significantly different, and much more overpowered.

Not really. It's about the same vs. vehicles.

1) They hurt superheavies a lot more. Now it's an automatic D3+1 (or much more if you roll a 6) instead of just a penetrating hit and having to roll well on the damage table to do it.

Most D-Weapons did more than one structure point because D-Weapons added +1 to the damage table (or +2 if it was AP1). So most of the time you were getting hit with 2-3 structure points as most of the larger D-weapons were 2-3 5" blasts. So most 3 structure point superheavies simply died. No real difference. However, now that super heavies ignore shaken, stunned, immobilized, and weapon destroyed results...killing it outright is the only way to silence them. Additionally, if void shields, etc. still work like they do now...it's going to take several D-weapons to bring those types of superheavies down.

2) They auto-kill non-superheavy vehicles on a 2+ instead of just getting a penetrating hit and having to roll well on the damage table. This makes them much more effective at killing multiple "normal" vehicles, effectively turning D-weapons into vortex weapons.

Again...most d-weapons did that already. Methinks you haven't played much apoc.

3) They ignore invulnerable saves (and all other defenses). Now your expensive TH/SS terminators die just as fast as anything else even though you paid a lot to get an invulnerable save.

TH/SS Terminators are not expensive at all. In APOC levels their points are a drop in the bucket. 200pts for 5. 400pts for 10. Not expensive. This is the only case where you may have a point. However, now these types of units can avoid possible damage altogether. Something that couldn't of happened before. Besides. TH/SS terminators usually die to the 6000 other guns. D-weapons don't even waste their time targeting peon units like this...LOL.

End result is that the "everything that can take D-weapons does take D-weapons" rule becomes even stronger and you absolutely need a house rule to prevent the game becoming nothing more than a question of who can scratchbuild the most D-weapons. They're the best possible weapon against every type of target and there's no reason to ever take anything that doesn't have a D-weapon.

Sadly thats just hyperbole. There are plenty of other weapons worth taking over d-weapons. Plasmablastguns, vulcan megabolters, etc. have their place for sure. More than anything now...there is a more even distribution of D-weapons as it looks like more basic formations can gain access to them. No longer are people needed to solely rely on titans.

I hope the Shadowsword doesn't have a 7" D weapon like it does in the current rules... Take 3 of them, and you would probably win if you go first in any game around the 10K range.

Shadowswords D-weapon only had one 5" blast. Not that scary.

BTW, the pizza plate goes up to 15" now (used to be 10"). So there are going to be 15" wide D weapons....... Sounds kinda lame honestly.

99% of the d-weapons were limited to a 5" blast. The only ones that were larger than that were the distort cannon on a Cobra or a Phantom. Or the larger guns on warlords, imperators, etc. Your run of the mill d-weapons on reavers, revenants, and warhounds, etc. were only a 5" blast.

Honestly, my biggest issue with the rumored D rules (at least going by the BoLS rumors) is that they seem disproportionally effective against tanks. A grot will survive against a D weapon more often than a Land Raider will, and most MC's have a decent, if not better than even chance of walking away from a hit (something like a Wraithlord or Riptide would need a 6 to be rolled to die to one) while non-superheavy vehicles, be it puny Land Speeder or mighty Spartan Assault Tank or Leman Russ, explode on better than a 2+.

There really is not that big a difference. Most d-weapons removed vehicles with ease already. MCs, etc. actually gained survivability. From a logic standpoint maybe they leap out of the way in time...where a slow vehicle cannot.

Unless of course you bring an Apocalypse-specific army with 999999999999 Basilisks, in which case all AA is dead by the end of the first shooting phase.

Except people don't do this. The most I've seen a single person bring is 12. And guess what? They died to orbital barrage assets, and flyers. For every stupid combo someone has...there is always a hard counter to be found in APOC.

Which really highlights the problem with GW's idiotic design for Apocalypse (only made worse by the new interceptor quad lascannon spam): if you bring a "fluff" army you get tabled even more effortlessly than in in normal 40k. If you design an army for Apocalypse you win. So whoever has the most money to spend on stuff they'll never use in a normal game wins, and everyone else just brings the targets.

Firstly, this is outlook is horsegak. Secondly, these are exactly the tools you want to avoid playing regardless..whether it's a standard game or an APOC game. People that attempt this stupidity completely don't get APOC. At all. As for the money thing. APOC was always expensive as the game functions better with the use of formations in larger games. It's just the way it is. Money though has nothing to do with power levels as some of the smaller formations were actually better than the bigger ones. That may still be the case. My suggestion is to wait and see what the new book brings. IMHO, from what I've seen...they've already addressed some of the hang ups people had with the previous edition of APOC and that can only mean good things rather than bad.

 Ozymandias wrote:
(or pulsa rockets in the old apoc book)

I see you've heard the song of Reece's people.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Not really. It's about the same vs. vehicles.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. In 5th you wrecked on a 5+ and AP1 D weapons just tore through things. Exploding on a 2+ is barely a change.

TH/SS Terminators are not expensive at all. In APOC levels their points are a drop in the bucket. 200pts for 5. 400pts for 10. Not expensive. This is the only case where you may have a point. However, now these types of units can avoid possible damage altogether. Something that couldn't of happened before. Besides. TH/SS terminators usually die to the 6000 other guns. D-weapons don't even waste their time targeting peon units like this...LOL.

I actually disagree with this. We had a guy in my area who took 40 terminators - a very good D weapon target. It's a shame they'll really suffer. Now they're as survivable as guardsmen, which is a bit silly. They should at least have some bonus for having an invuln save IMO. Hopefully there's a big reduction in blast weapon size for D weapons at least.

Sadly thats just hyperbole. There are plenty of other weapons worth taking over d-weapons. Plasmablastguns, vulcan megabolters, etc. have their place for sure. More than anything now...there is a more even distribution of D-weapons as it looks like more basic formations can gain access to them. No longer are people needed to solely rely on titans.

Agreed. For one, Titans couldn't even HIT flyers without the mega bolter before as all their other weapons were blasts (though that's less important now as most flyers aren't AV10, plus there are better skyfire things now). 10" plasma blasts were no joke if you knew you were facing some hordes (especially nids/orks where D weapons were frankly a waste). I say if you knew, I don't think I've ever played an apocalypse game without at least one nid player and at least 2 Hierophants. Now... well, we'll see what the turbo laser destructor is like. I can't see me NOT thinking it's the best choice vs everything now it can kill gargantuan creatures quite so easily but we'll see.

Shadowswords D-weapon only had one 5" blast. Not that scary.

I disagree. It was a premier Superheavy killer for IG if they didn't bring Titans. Even if they did, it's still good so your Titan isn't shooting theirs. Situational but awesome. Broken VS nids, one shotting MCs was amazing. Now it's weaker vs MCs but stronger overall - seems reasonable.

99% of the d-weapons were limited to a 5" blast. The only ones that were larger than that were the distort cannon on a Cobra or a Phantom. Or the larger guns on warlords, imperators, etc. Your run of the mill d-weapons on reavers, revenants, and warhounds, etc. were only a 5" blast.

Yeah, it was the vortex things you had to watch out for. That old IG deathstrike one was no joke and could kill almost anything, plus it was cheap. Funny but abusable.

There really is not that big a difference. Most d-weapons removed vehicles with ease already. MCs, etc. actually gained survivability. From a logic standpoint maybe they leap out of the way in time...where a slow vehicle cannot.

I dunno, I'm still gutted about the no save thing. Not quite sure how you're supposed to keep the Warlord alive which makes the assert making killing the enemy warlord worth 3VP a bit insane.

Except people don't do this. The most I've seen a single person bring is 12. And guess what? They died to orbital barrage assets, and flyers. For every stupid combo someone has...there is always a hard counter to be found in APOC.

Except Doomsday device spam. THAT was insane. I'm not surprised they've gone the way of the dodo. Still, I'd rather face 12 Basilisks than 2 Warlords. At least the Basilisks don't fire Vortex missiles and a lot of large D blasts per turn...

Firstly, this is outlook is horsegak. Secondly, these are exactly the tools you want to avoid playing regardless..whether it's a standard game or an APOC game. People that attempt this stupidity completely don't get APOC. At all. As for the money thing. APOC was always expensive as the game functions better with the use of formations in larger games. It's just the way it is. Money though has nothing to do with power levels as some of the smaller formations were actually better than the bigger ones. That may still be the case. My suggestion is to wait and see what the new book brings. IMHO, from what I've seen...they've already addressed some of the hang ups people had with the previous edition of APOC and that can only mean good things rather than bad.

Yeah, there's always a way to make 40 not fun and Apocalypse is no exception. We all know Apoc is an attempt to sell you otherwise redundant models but... isn't that true regardless? The entirety of 40k is designed to sell you more stuff - GW is still, at the end of the day, a business. A pretty badly run one IMO, but a business nonetheless. I think we'll see some fun additions and to be honest, that's all I was hoping for. If it doesn't float your boat or you think you wouldn't enjoy it, don't play it. It's your money, your time and your stuff to do as you please. It perfectly fine not to play it, just as it is to play it. I'd recommend it once at least but it's up to you.

Pulsa rockets were annoying because they slowed the game down. Power wise...they were average. They were pretty easy to kill with the right stuff. But yes, they could make the game stupid at times.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Pulsa rockets were annoying because they slowed the game down. Power wise...they were average. They were pretty easy to kill with the right stuff. But yes, they could make the game stupid at times.

One or two are annoying. 11+ in a single game breaks the system.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Pulsa rockets were annoying because they slowed the game down. Power wise...they were average. They were pretty easy to kill with the right stuff. But yes, they could make the game stupid at times.

One or two are annoying. 11+ in a single game breaks the system.

I believe that's a general rule for most units.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
However, now that super heavies ignore shaken, stunned, immobilized, and weapon destroyed results...killing it outright is the only way to silence them.

And this is exactly the problem. D-weapons got better (even if only by a "meaningless" amount), while every other weapon got much worse (since only "explodes" results do anything). That means the relative power of the two is even more in favor of the D-weapons.

Again...most d-weapons did that already. Methinks you haven't played much apoc.

No, they really didn't. You needed a 4+ to kill a vehicle, so Shadowswords (the most common D-weapon) weren't all that reliable once you consider scatter chances, and even turbolaser Warhounds only had less than a 75% chance to kill (assuming they shot at two different targets). The simple fact is that under the old rules you'd probably still have some of the vehicles hit by a D-weapon, now they all die on a 2+.

Sadly thats just hyperbole. There are plenty of other weapons worth taking over d-weapons. Plasmablastguns, vulcan megabolters, etc. have their place for sure. More than anything now...there is a more even distribution of D-weapons as it looks like more basic formations can gain access to them. No longer are people needed to solely rely on titans.

That's not hyperbole at all. Plasma blastguns are worthless compared to turbolasers once you remember that cover exists, and it only gets worse now that D-weapons ignore invulnerable saves that the things you shoot with plasma blastguns tend to have. Vulcan megabolters are complete garbage, turbolasers beat them against every possible target. Etc. If you have a choice between a D-weapon and something else the correct choice is always the D-weapon unless you're deliberately making your army weaker to give your opponent a better chance.

Except people don't do this. The most I've seen a single person bring is 12. And guess what? They died to orbital barrage assets, and flyers. For every stupid combo someone has...there is always a hard counter to be found in APOC.

Yeah, everything has a counter if you have enough money. Which is the fundamental problem: people who buy specific armies for Apocalypse have a huge advantage over people who just bring their normal-40k collection.

Secondly, these are exactly the tools you want to avoid playing regardless..whether it's a standard game or an APOC game. People that attempt this stupidity completely don't get APOC. At all.

Oh yes, the same old "it's ok that the rules are complete garbage and GW's designers are lazy idiots because you're TFG if you exploit GW's mistakes and nobody will play you". Is it really that hard to see why it's better to have good rules than to depend on shunning people from the community if they play too competitively by your arbitrary standard?

Money though has nothing to do with power levels as some of the smaller formations were actually better than the bigger ones.

The point is that formations require you to buy stuff you probably won't use in normal 40k. It strongly favors the people who can afford to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on an expansion, while people who can only afford a standard-40k collection plus maybe an extra unit or two don't get all those benefits.

I just looked at my collection, and there's practically nothing I'd want to field in Apocalypse. One Baneblade, a few Russes, and that's it. What good is 3000 points of Guard infantry? Absolutely nothing. What's the use of three squads of Tactical marines with heavy bolters and flamers? Again, nothing. Should I take 1500 points of wych cult Dark Eldar? Hell no, they're already questionable in regular games, let alone anything larger.

Sure, taking a hundred infantry models might actually accomplish something, but I'd be using 90% of my time moving them and shooting with them when the actual battle is decided between super-units or 600+ point "deathstars" of terminators, Fire Dragons or the like.

I agree on some points.
The D6+6 seems too strong unless you are fighting Phantom Titans with 24 HP.
It’s even worse when we look at wounds! Seeing as wounds can only go to 10, you have a 1 in 12-chance to one-shot any non-vehicle model when you hit it. (6 followed by 4+)
Not quite fair if you think about it.
Remember that the C’tan is rumoured around 1k points Or the Tyranid Bio-Titan at around 1k points.
In my opinion it should have been D6+3 on a 6 or they should give GMC more than 10 wounds.

It’s really sad that inv-saves mean nothing to a D-shot.
Why pay 40 for a terminator if they die just as easily as a 6 point Ork-Boy?

Yeah, everything has a counter if you have enough money. Which is the fundamental problem: people who buy specific armies for Apocalypse have a huge advantage over people who just bring their normal-40k collection.

Don’t invite that person and laugh as his 2k dollar collection is collecting dust.
Life is pay to win, you cannot stop that behavior.
It’s useless to complain about that behavior in a game like Warhammer 40k.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
What good is 3000 points of Guard infantry?

You missed the part where you and your friends are going to have an awesome time with 3k points of infantry!
Apocalypse isn't about you spending money to win games, it's about you and your friends spending money to have a great time.

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

macldef wrote:
You are right, its hard. Same with my Warhoundtitan. But its not one Hit. And this is all assuming that thing has 10 Hitpoints - wich i dont think it will have. The Nurgle-Kugath Greaterdaemon has 7 Hitpoints at about 300 Points...

Another thing: You can kill Titans/Superheavys just as quickly. 9 Hullpoints... no problem.

Yes, but does the 1000 point Bio-titan get D weapons?

Kangodo wrote:
Don’t invite that person and laugh as his 2k dollar collection is collecting dust.
Life is pay to win, you cannot stop that behavior.
It’s useless to complain about that behavior in a game like Warhammer 40k.

So, who cares if GW are lazy and write stupid rules, we can just shun anyone who plays too competitively by our arbitrary standards of what is too competitive? How exactly does this kind of lazy design make it worth paying for?

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

Me. Why do I care about 50+ irrelevant guardsmen dying and their survivors trying to shoot the latest "buy a $150 model and win 40k" toy? I have a turbolaser Warhound that can take it off the table in one shot.

(Not that I'd bring the infantry in the first place, since the last thing Apocalypse needs is more tedious movement and dice rolling for giant horde units.)

So now formations are lazy and stupid because you feel forced to buy models you will probably never use in 40k since you desperately want to win at a game of Apocalypse?

Me. Why do I care about 50+ irrelevant guardsmen dying and their survivors trying to shoot the latest "buy a $150 model and win 40k" toy?

The vault will probably be around 800 points.
800 points of Guardsmen will wipe that thing off the table AND they cost more.

So now who is paying to win?
I'm actually spending 100 Euro on a model that I cannot use in a normal game ánd that gets easily tabled by models that can be brought to a normal game.

(Not that I'd bring the infantry in the first place, since the last thing Apocalypse needs is more tedious movement and dice rolling for giant horde units.)

In that case you really don't get the spirit of Apocalypse:
Apocalypse is a new way of playing games of Warhammer 40,000. Allowing you to field as many miniatures as you like, in any combination, there really are no limits to what you can do.

For what it's worth, I've played 4 Apocalypse games with my shadowsword now.

The only time it has ever hit anything is a single warhounds void shields. The rest of the time? Whoomph, the template sails off into the distance!

Hey guys!
You can find a lot of pics of the Apocalypse's Rulebook at this site
http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11241774-rumores-y-fotos-de-apocalipsis-en-julio-novedades-a-dia-09-julio/#103049376

Is there really anything left to discuss? The thread seems to have degenerated into an argument. Again.

I am a guard player, I have at this point around 8000pts of guard. I love apoc. I also usually field all of my 200+ infantry. They have their role on the field even amongst titans. My friends tend to own around 4-5000pts of their armies and at most 1 superheavy. We still play apoc, we play it quite a lot actually. We've never had a problem with needing the latest and greatest toy to play the game. We tend to use apoc to field all our collections or just to add a superheavy to the mix. If you dislike apoc, then don't play it, don't just sound off whining about broken weapons or whatnot being the only thing seen in peoples' lists, because that's a problem with the players, not the game. Find players of like mind to you and maybe limit the number of d-guns like we do in my group.


Edit: I'm looking forward to the new rules for superheavies since the introduction of 6th really weakened them. The thunderblitz looks interesting.

 Peregrine wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Don’t invite that person and laugh as his 2k dollar collection is collecting dust.
Life is pay to win, you cannot stop that behavior.
It’s useless to complain about that behavior in a game like Warhammer 40k.

So, who cares if GW are lazy and write stupid rules, we can just shun anyone who plays too competitively by our arbitrary standards of what is too competitive? How exactly does this kind of lazy design make it worth paying for?

The same can be said of literally any aspect of 40k. Why play Forge World? Why go to tournaments? Why talk to the other person? Why buy models instead of using cardboard cutouts? The answer is the same to all: people enjoy it and find it fun. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Don't moan that a game you aren't playing already doesn't interest you because you think it's unfair without even knowing the entire rule set.

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

Me. Why do I care about 50+ irrelevant guardsmen dying and their survivors trying to shoot the latest "buy a $150 model and win 40k" toy? I have a turbolaser Warhound that can take it off the table in one shot.

(Not that I'd bring the infantry in the first place, since the last thing Apocalypse needs is more tedious movement and dice rolling for giant horde units.)

So you don't enjoy visualising battles as a struggle, you just play to win. That's fine but why are you trying to denegrate people based on how they wish to spend their money on toys? Come on, this is silly. You don't want to play apocalypse. Fine, whatever. Why are you still commenting in an Apocalypse thread then? It's obviously not your style of gameplay.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Is there really anything left to discuss? The thread seems to have degenerated into an argument. Again.

Still waiting for pics of the fortification rules.

Having to deal with deploying and then quickly removing 50 guardsmen en-masse due to a necron thingy and then having a horde or orks come from nowhere doesn't sound much fun or very thematic.