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 Nevelon wrote:

It's actually a nice way to balance things. You can have nice big guns, but can't just turn them into oversized sniper rifles to pick apart your opponent's army. This way the quad-LC can still do a fine job of swatting flyers out of the sky, but not have to be costed according to what it could do to ground targets in the wrong hands.

BS2 is a good balancing act and I'm all for it. However, being unable to choose targets is too much. You cannot use these to shoot tanks. It is also boring, making choices is what is what is the game is about, if my units are automated, there's nothing for me to do.

 Crimson wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

It's actually a nice way to balance things. You can have nice big guns, but can't just turn them into oversized sniper rifles to pick apart your opponent's army. This way the quad-LC can still do a fine job of swatting flyers out of the sky, but not have to be costed according to what it could do to ground targets in the wrong hands.

BS2 is a good balancing act and I'm all for it. However, being unable to choose targets is too much. You cannot use these to shoot tanks. It is also boring, making choices is what is what is the game is about, if my units are automated, there's nothing for me to do.

You can shoot tanks if there are no flyers, no flying mcs and the tank is the closest enemy unit.

Can you not man them like the Aegis Defence Line quad gun?

 bubber wrote:
Can you not man them like the Aegis Defence Line quad gun?

No, you can't.

 Crimson wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

It's actually a nice way to balance things. You can have nice big guns, but can't just turn them into oversized sniper rifles to pick apart your opponent's army. This way the quad-LC can still do a fine job of swatting flyers out of the sky, but not have to be costed according to what it could do to ground targets in the wrong hands.

BS2 is a good balancing act and I'm all for it. However, being unable to choose targets is too much. You cannot use these to shoot tanks. It is also boring, making choices is what is what is the game is about, if my units are automated, there's nothing for me to do.

On the contrary, while you don't make a lot of choices in firing selection in game, with careful placement, it can be a very good area denial unit to make certain zones more dangerous to your opponent's flyers. This, in turn, can be used tactically by your ground forces.

shade1313 wrote:
On the contrary, while you don't make a lot of choices in firing selection in game, with careful placement, it can be a very good area denial unit to make certain zones more dangerous to your opponent's flyers. This, in turn, can be used tactically by your ground forces.

But for 200 points, I'd hoped I could actually target things. :(

It targets flyers, what else would you want from it?

Kangodo wrote:
It targets flyers, what else would you want from it?

There are three night scythes on the table. Two are empty (having deposited their troops). One has 5 immortals in it and is positioned to drop them off on an objective on your side of the board on its turn. I would love to shoot the important one.

The fact that the terrain you're paying 200 points for has to target what your opponent wants it to target is the important thing. It's nice to see the ADL still being the go to fortification piece.

But its things like this that remind me not to preorder something I don't know the rules for.

 pretre wrote:
There are three night scythes on the table. Two are empty (having deposited their troops). One has 5 immortals in it and is positioned to drop them off on an objective on your side of the board on its turn. I would love to shoot the important one.

Well, very easy: You can't have that for 200 points.

Let's compare it to the new IA12 - Sentry Pylon with Gauss Exterminator
Pylon has 2 more BS, but no Twin Linked so it slightly wins.
This bunker has AV14 vs T7, the bunker clearly wins.
The bunker can also carry and give cover to 20 models.

135 points vs 200 points, so yeah.. making it automated fire is the least they could do to prevent it from being included into almost every list.

Sentry Pylon is forge world.

Compare it to the Bastion.

125 Points for a Bastion and Quad
Bastion has 2 more BS for most armies. Bastion wins.
Bunker and Bastion have same AV. Tie.
Bunker has 2 Higher Strength and 2 Lower AP. Bunker wins.
Bastion cannot choose targets. Bastion Wins.
Both can hold 20 people. Tie.
Bastion gives a height advantage to models on the roof. Bastion Wins.
Bastion can choose targets. Bastion Wins.
Bastion is 65 points cheaper. Bastion Wins.
Bastion gets 4 free emplaced heavy bolters. Bastion wins.

Bastion is far superior in every way except Strength and AP.

Kangodo wrote:

 pretre wrote:
There are three night scythes on the table. Two are empty (having deposited their troops). One has 5 immortals in it and is positioned to drop them off on an objective on your side of the board on its turn. I would love to shoot the important one.

Well, very easy: You can't have that for 200 points.

Let's compare it to the new IA12 - Sentry Pylon with Gauss Exterminator
Pylon has 2 more BS, but no Twin Linked so it slightly wins.
This bunker has AV14 vs T7, the bunker clearly wins.
The bunker can also carry and give cover to 20 models.

135 points vs 200 points, so yeah.. making it automated fire is the least they could do to prevent it from being included into almost every list.

Yeah except that automated fire makes it completely ineffective as a firing platform except against bad opponents or those with 1 flyer (You shouldn't base your armies around your opponent being bad). Not being able to target units is makes this not worth using at all, sad really GW ruined a cool piece of terrain but not surprising.

Good luck shooting fliers with your S7, AP4 :')

Let's focus on the Icarus Lascannon, Twinlinked would make it 50 (TL-weapons are usually 50% more expensive)
That would set it at 175 points.
So you are paying 25 points to actually have that amount of firepower and it's automated.
Downside is that you cannot use manual fire.
Another upside is that it semi-ignores the "shoot at closest target" by still preferring enemy fliers if they are within range.

Let's say I spend 200 points on each:
Bastion gets a tactical squad and one shot at BS4, that's 0.67 hit.
Redoubt gets 4 shots at BS3.5 which comes down to 2.22 hits.
That are 3.33 as many hits.

So again: Making it unable to be manually fired is the right thing to do.
It would be overpowered if you could give it BS4 AND pick your own targets.

 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah except that automated fire makes it completely ineffective as a firing platform except against bad opponents or those with 1 flyer (You shouldn't base your armies around your opponent being bad). Not being able to target units is makes this not worth using at all, sad really GW ruined a cool piece of terrain but not surprising.

Then don't buy it?
Not every new model has to be an auto-include in every army-list ever made.

Kangodo wrote:

 pretre wrote:
There are three night scythes on the table. Two are empty (having deposited their troops). One has 5 immortals in it and is positioned to drop them off on an objective on your side of the board on its turn. I would love to shoot the important one.

Well, very easy: You can't have that for 200 points.

Let's compare it to the new IA12 - Sentry Pylon with Gauss Exterminator
Pylon has 2 more BS, but no Twin Linked so it slightly wins.
This bunker has AV14 vs T7, the bunker clearly wins.
The bunker can also carry and give cover to 20 models.

135 points vs 200 points, so yeah.. making it automated fire is the least they could do to prevent it from being included into almost every list.

Also, the Firestorm gets 2 guns. Consequently, the Firestorm gets 2.22 hits per round of shooting and the Pylon gets 1.33. The Pylon get's 0.99 hits per 100 points, the Firestorm gets 1.11. The Pylon also uses the very important Heavy Support slot for Necrons. It's a total wipeout in comparison, the only difference is the lack of targeting which actually makes it a choice rather than super obvious. That said, it's still not as versatile as a defence line with quad gun, so I can't see them getting much use. On the other hand, the battle cannon fortifications are looking amazing for armies like Necrons who would love the AP3 large blasts which are decent anti-tank.

Kangodo wrote:
Good luck shooting fliers with your S7, AP4 :')

Let's focus on the Icarus Lascannon, Twinlinked would make it 50 (TL-weapons are usually 50% more expensive)
That would set it at 175 points.

Umm, no, it would still be 125. Bastion is 75.

So you are paying 25 points to actually have that amount of firepower and it's automated.
Downside is that you cannot use manual fire.
Another upside is that it semi-ignores the "shoot at closest target" by still preferring enemy fliers if they are within range.

No, you're paying 75 for 2 extra shots. It shoots at closest flier/fmc first and then at closest enemy. Still not good.

Let's say I spend 200 points on each:
Bastion gets a tactical squad and one shot at BS4, that's 0.67 hit.
Redoubt gets 4 shots at BS3.5 which comes down to 2.22 hits.
That are 3.33 as many hits.

At a target you can't choose.

So again: Making it unable to be manually fired is the right thing to do.
It would be overpowered if you could give it BS4 AND pick your own targets.

No, it'd be worth taking for 200-250 points. By your own math... 75 for a bunker (bastion), give it a 5 point discoutn for no Heavy Bolters. 70. 4 Icarus is 140 + TL =210. So 280. Throw in a little discount for only being 2 guns with multiple shots instead of 4. Bam 250. I would would have paid that to field it probably.

For the current viability, I would probably pay no more than 150.

 pretre wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
On the contrary, while you don't make a lot of choices in firing selection in game, with careful placement, it can be a very good area denial unit to make certain zones more dangerous to your opponent's flyers. This, in turn, can be used tactically by your ground forces.

But for 200 points, I'd hoped I could actually target things. :(

True. It is pretty pricey for an area deterrent.

Finnaly have my Book, its a really nice book, with a good portion of fluff and interessting galleries, you see that this time GW din't use photoshop to increase the models count on the pics of the formations.

Most of the formations is interessting , and Unnatural catastrophies are really something!

Finnest Hour, when used gives you acces to 3 charts, a bit like with the Warlord Traits charts of the rulebook, but this time interessting.

-Chart for Examplary Personnality;
-1; The Warlord can rethrow all his failed To Hit rolls
-2: The Warlord multiply by 3 his Attacks before any modificator
-3: The Warlord can rethrow all his To Wound rolls
-4; The Warlord doubles his Strength and Thoughness caracs.
-5: The Warlord has T10 and an invulnerable save of 2+
-6: The Warlord has +2A, all his attacks count has AP and having the Instant Death rule.

-Chart for Examplary Commander.
-1: The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius has the Relentless rule
-2: The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius have the Fell no pain rule
-3; The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius are Stuborn
-4: The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius, can Sprint and Shoot in the same Shooting phase, units doing this cannot assault, if they have the Fleet rule, they can assault.
-5 The Warlord and Friendly units in a 24" radius has the Crusader rule
-6; the Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius has the Prefered ennemy rule.


Chart for Examplery Strategist.
-1; The Warlord side immediatly gains an extra Strategic asset
-2; All friendly units in a 24" radius of the Warlord can use their normal BS when shooting in Overwatch
-3: Nominate an ennemy unit in LoS of the Warlord, Rethrow all failed To Hit rolls
-4: Nominate an ennemy unit, in LoS of the Warlord, rethrow all failed to Wound/Penetration rolls
-5: Nominate a Strategic Objective in the Warlord LoS, all friendly units in a 12" radius of this Objective has the Zealot rule
-6: the Warlord can bring back from Imminent reserve a unit that was completly destroyed.

 pretre wrote:
Umm, no, it would still be 125. Bastion is 75.

You forgot the part where the Redoubt has TWO of those cannons.
GW values a S9, AP2, interceptor/skyfire weapon at 35 points.
Twinlinked usually adds 50%, so that makes it 50 points.
Ooh, did I mention you have four of those shots?

The Bastion is 75 points for AV14 and 20-model capacity.
Add 200 points for the weaponry and you'd be at 275.
But since the thing is automated only, you get a gigantic 75 points discount.
That is fair.

No, you're paying 75 for 2 extra shots. It shoots at closest flier/fmc first and then at closest enemy. Still not good.

See my comment above!

At a target you can't choose.

Yup, it's dedicated anti-air. Don't expect it to bring down everything in the game for you.

No, it'd be worth taking for 200-250 points.

Hahahaha, it would be an auto-include for every army at 200 points.

Kangodo wrote:
You forgot the part where the Redoubt has TWO of those cannons.
GW values a S9, AP2, interceptor/skyfire weapon at 35 points.
Twinlinked usually adds 50%, so that makes it 50 points.
Ooh, did I mention you have four of those shots?

The Bastion is 75 points for AV14 and 20-model capacity.
Add 200 points for the weaponry and you'd be at 275.
But since the thing is automated only, you get a gigantic 75 points discount.

I see where you get your math now. I just don't think it is worth it for 200. Automated is a BIG disadvantage.

At a target you can't choose.

Yup, it's dedicated anti-air. Don't expect it to bring down everything in the game for you.

I don't get this. Would you accept a 'dedicated anti-tank' unit in your army that could only shoot at the nearest tank? Oh yeah, there's already one of those: Tankbustas. Those things are certainly flying into lists across the country. lol

No, it'd be worth taking for 200-250 points.

Hahahaha, it would be an auto-include for every army at 200 points.

Agreed. Which is why I would pay 250.

Hmm, that Finest Hour is interesting.
Personal buffs are nice, they really help when your Warlord is about to Assault.
Commander seems weird.. Relentless, Stubborn and Crusader seem really out of place! I guess I will never use that table.
Examplery is great indeed Although seeing the super-overwatch makes me go "Meeh."

 pretre wrote:
I see where you get your math now. I just don't think it is worth it for 200. Automated is a BIG disadvantage.

I know it is, but giving it manual fire would be insane
Imagine that thing with a Dev-squad on it, with the Sgt manning it..
It would make almost every other anti-Tank/flyer look bad.
You don't want stuff like that with a fortification that everyone (except Nids) could use.

I don't get this. Would you accept a 'dedicated anti-tank' unit in your army that could only shoot at the nearest tank? Oh yeah, there's already one of those: Tankbustas. Those things are certainly flying into lists across the country. lol

Yes, I would accept that.
And I would even play it sometimes, but it would not be an auto-include in every list I make.

Agreed. Which is why I would pay 250.

If you could man the gun, I wouldn't settle for anything less than 350 to prevent the impact this would have.

Kangodo wrote:

I don't get this. Would you accept a 'dedicated anti-tank' unit in your army that could only shoot at the nearest tank? Oh yeah, there's already one of those: Tankbustas. Those things are certainly flying into lists across the country. lol

Yes, I would accept that.

Well, I suppose that's good for you but practically no one fields Tankbustas for that reason (because they can't choose their target).

If you could man the gun, I wouldn't settle for anything less than 350 to prevent the impact this would have.

Because it would be so horrible to cut back on flyers a bit?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Finnaly have my Book, its a really nice book, with a good portion of fluff and interessting galleries, you see that this time GW din't use photoshop to increase the models count on the pics of the formations.

Most of the formations is interessting , and Unnatural catastrophies are really something!

Finnest Hour, when used gives you acces to 3 charts, a bit like with the Warlord Traits charts of the rulebook, but this time interessting.

-Chart for Examplary Personnality;
-1; The Warlord can rethrow all his failed To Hit rolls
-2: The Warlord multiply by 3 his Attacks before any modificator
-3: The Warlord can rethrow all his To Wound rolls
-4; The Warlord doubles his Strength and Thoughness caracs.
-5: The Warlord has T10 and an invulnerable save of 2+
-6: The Warlord has +2A, all his attacks count has AP and having the Instant Death rule.

-Chart for Examplary Commander.
-1: The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius has the Relentless rule
-2: The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius have the Fell no pain rule
-3; The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius are Stuborn
-4: The Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius, can Sprint and Shoot in the same Shooting phase, units doing this cannot assault, if they have the Fleet rule, they can assault.
-5 The Warlord and Friendly units in a 24" radius has the Crusader rule
-6; the Warlord and friendly units in a 24" radius has the Prefered ennemy rule.


Chart for Examplery Strategist.
-1; The Warlord side immediatly gains an extra Strategic asset
-2; All friendly units in a 24" radius of the Warlord can use their normal BS when shooting in Overwatch
-3: Nominate an ennemy unit in LoS of the Warlord, Rethrow all failed To Hit rolls
-4: Nominate an ennemy unit, in LoS of the Warlord, rethrow all failed to Wound/Penetration rolls
-5: Nominate a Strategic Objective in the Warlord LoS, all friendly units in a 12" radius of this Objective has the Zealot rule
-6: the Warlord can bring back from Imminent reserve a unit that was completly destroyed.

That is looking awasome, how do they work, just for one turn? and when do they activate?

Could you also tell me some about the trancended C'tan?
thanks

You can activate Finest Hour at the start of any of your turns.
It lasts until the start of your next turn
He gets 3++, Eternal Warrior and can order an All-out Attack.
But when he dies during Finest Hour, the opponent gets an additional VP.

All-out Attack is when you pick a unit you own and you triple the movement
It cannot shoot or run, but is not affected by difficult terrain (treat it as dangerous instead).

Space Marines can choose to 'channel the power of their Primarch through their Warlord' instead of rolling on those tables.

 pretre wrote:
Because it would be so horrible to cut back on flyers a bit?

There is a difference between cutting back on fliers in competitive play and completely annihilating their use in any game whatsoever

Kangodo wrote:

So again: Making it unable to be manually fired is the right thing to do.
It would be overpowered if you could give it BS4 AND pick your own targets.

Agreed. Making it BS2 and able to choose target would've been fine though.

 Crimson wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

So again: Making it unable to be manually fired is the right thing to do.
It would be overpowered if you could give it BS4 AND pick your own targets.

Agreed. Making it BS2 and able to choose target would've been fine though.

Good call. Quasi-automated fire. As in, you can't man it but it can pick targets. That's a good compromise and would make it worth 200.

Went to my FLGS and saw the rules for the Warhound vs the Heirophant Bio-Titan.

Warhoud is 720 points for 9 HP and 2 Shields (effectively 11 wounds) and is armour 14 in the front (effectively T10). Each turn a shield (AV12) can regenerate on a 5+ (effectively IWND). It also comes with 2 Turbo Lasers for free - 2 Str D AP 2 5" blasts each at BS4 and 96" range.

Bio-Titan comes it at 1000 points and gets 10 wounds, T9, IWND, FNP, Regenerate and a 2+ Armour. It also comes with 2 Bio-Cannons - 6 Str 10 AP 3 shots each at BS 3 and 48" range. My foot print on the Bio-Titan is roughly 10-11" in diameter.

In a match up the cheaper warhound will inflict 13.667 wounds on average in a single shooting phase (at BS4 plus the massive footprint of the Bio-Titan, you don't have to worry about scattering). These bypass its armour saves, cover saves, and FNP.

In return, the Biotitan can strip the 2 shields off the warhound and cause a further 1.83 wounds/HP...assuming that the warhound doesn't have cover save as Bio-Cannons don't bypass cover saves.

 wyomingfox wrote:
Went to my FLGS and saw the rules for the Warhound vs the Heirophant Bio-Titan.

. . .

Seems par for the course.

 wyomingfox wrote:
Went to my FLGS and saw the rules for the Warhound vs the Heirophant Bio-Titan.

Warhoud is 720 points for 9 HP and 2 Shields (effectively 11 wounds) and is armour 14 in the front (effectively T10). Each turn a shield (AV12) can regenerate on a 5+ (effectively IWND). It also comes with 2 Turbo Lasers for free - 2 Str D AP 2 5" blasts each at BS4 and 96" range.

Bio-Titan comes it at 1000 points and gets 10 wounds, T9, IWND, FNP, Regenerate and a 2+ Armour. It also comes with 2 Bio-Cannons - 6 Str 10 AP 3 shots each at BS 3 and 48" range. My foot print on the Bio-Titan is roughly 10-11" in diameter.

In a match up the cheaper warhound will inflict 13.667 wounds on average in a single shooting phase (at BS4 plus the massive footprint of the Bio-Titan, you don't have to worry about scattering). These bypass its armour saves, cover saves, and FNP.

In return, the Biotitan can strip the 2 shields off the warhound and cause a further 1.83 wounds/HP...assuming that the warhound doesn't have cover save as Bio-Cannons don't bypass cover saves.

Well they cant let the nids win right?

Are assassin strike forces still in? Those were pretty cool!

 wyomingfox wrote:
Warhoud is 720 points

Seriously? Someone thought the ridiculously underpriced dual turbolaser Warhound needed to be cheaper?