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I'm not sure how valuable minimizing Synapse really is, considering that it tends to come packaged with Shadow in the Warp. Between Daemons and Eldar I really like having enough of that in my list to at least cause them a little grief. I like the 5-man Genestealer squads for scoring myself, but I'm not sure I agree on the lack of Synapse.

Mozzamanx wrote:
See I'd go completely the other way regarding Manufactorum 'Stealers because by Infiltrating that close, all you are saying is 'Here is 25% of my entire Scoring capability, please kill it before my actual threats get here'.
The whole point is that 5 Genestealers are cheap and low-profile so that the enemy cannot dedicate the effort to remove them, and instead must work with the extra monster you just bought by saving the

Who said you had to infiltrate them close?

 ductvader wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
See I'd go completely the other way regarding Manufactorum 'Stealers because by Infiltrating that close, all you are saying is 'Here is 25% of my entire Scoring capability, please kill it before my actual threats get here'.
The whole point is that 5 Genestealers are cheap and low-profile so that the enemy cannot dedicate the effort to remove them, and instead must work with the extra monster you just bought by saving the

Who said you had to infiltrate them close?

Exactly. Just because they can doesn't mean they should. Same goes for deep strike and Trygons.

Because my name has come up a few times I thought I should piece together a few post from The Hive with my thoughts on IB and how it affects Nid play and list construction. Sorry it is a little long.

I have said it once and I will say it again: It depends on your list. You either have to pay a hefty synapse tax or you have to play with more expensive units that can operate outside of synapse.

The big difference is that in 4th and 5th your army did not disintegrate without synapse. I used to leave termigaunts camping on objectives out of synapse in 5th, but in 6th it is too risky. Hormigaunts will kill off just under ½ the unit 25% of the time they are out of synapse. Gargoyles and other Hunters are not too bad as they just GtG in the worst case and have to make snapshots.

So given the fact that Synapse is now much more key the synapse creatures now have giant red bulls-eyes painted on them. So you either need a lot of synapse and/or really durable synapse.

However this has led to a newish tactic I call “Daisy Cutting”. That is the strategic removal of the few models that are in synapse from a unit. Let’s say you have a large brood of hormagants with a trail of hormagants to a zoantrope for synapse. They drop a blast template to kill those few models in synapse and “poof” no more synapse. You then have to deal with the units that are now off the chain be chasing them to get them back into synapse or just hope they come back to you on their own.

Really good opponents can take advantage of Daisy Cutting in CC. They can position a unit so that your unit can charge, but your pile in move takes you out of synapse. Lose your Fearless and a lot of our units are Ld6 and losing combat by a few wounds (even if there are 20+ models left) can cause them to get cut down in a sweeping advance.

<snip question on dealing with Daisy Cutting>

I tried everything I could think of, but it boils down to clumping up. When the new IG dex hits I think that won't be an option anymore either.

I can do a post on Daisy Cutting tactics so people can be forewarned and know what units to look out for and how it can impact you but that is it.

My list philosophy has grown into a divergent evolutionary thread if you will. Multiple small units of expensive models, but cheap units. This strategy wasn't even possible a few weeks ago so I am still wrestling with it. Basically it comes down to the fact if you can make the FOC not matter then you can start using a set of strategies based on Overkill, Target Saturation and Squandered Overhead.

The basic theory of each for folks that don't know them.

Overkill states that any force that is excess of the amount of firepower used to wipe out a unit is a detriment to your list. It is why folks don't shoot krack missles at termigaunts, its a waste of points. So if you have a unit of 20 firewarriors shooting at two units (30 Termigaunts or 5 genestealers) the more effective use of firepower would be to shoot at the termigaunts because you can probably wipe out a unit worth 120pts vs a unit worth 70pts.

Target Saturation is pretty basic. More targets then they can shoot. It can cause priority targeting issues and can cause inefficient use of shooting.

Squandered Overhead is the practice of lowing your opponents effective list size by causing him to spend points on something that does not give him a proportional benefit. An army that spends a lot of points on lascannons for example when all you have is low toughness W1 Sv5 units. Or anything they take for AA if you have no flyers. Anything that they pay for that is not worth the points is wasted.

So how does that play back into synapse? Because of the forced evolution (thanks to the dataslates) away from synapse and that lets you escape the confines of FOC. My current 1999pt list has 14 infiltrators alone with 10 of them costing 70pts or less. That means that in most cases I have limited my opponent to doing very little damage before I can slam into him. I also have no MCs so that means that most of their high strength weaponry is going to go to waste. As I am using high Ld units (many don't even have IB) I don't need to worry about synapse as much. No flyers means that all that AA firepower is either wasted or overpriced. With some lists I can change the points equation to roughly 1999pt vs 1850pts based on the stuff they are taking that will do them very little good.

OK think I went a little off target there....

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45530/synapse-heavy-burden?page=2#ixzz2sVcTJt9O
[size=24]
I'll post my list if people want to see it. Still a work in progress so I'm a little shy about it. It works well in my meta. [/size]

 Gloomfang wrote:
Because my name has come up a few times I thought I should piece together a few post from The Hive with my thoughts on IB and how it affects Nid play and list construction. Sorry it is a little long.

.....

OK think I went a little off target there....

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45530/synapse-heavy-burden?page=2#ixzz2sVcTJt9O
[size=24]
I'll post my list if people want to see it. Still a work in progress so I'm a little shy about it. It works well in my meta. [/size]

This was my basic tactic for eating GK in 5th. Of course punished me horribly against DE.

DE has always been a problem for Nids. I need to find some to test my list out against as they can just zoom around so fast that my lack of shooting could be my downfall.

 Gloomfang wrote:
DE has always been a problem for Nids. I need to find some to test my list out against as they can just zoom around so fast that my lack of shooting could be my downfall.

Firestorm redoubt!!!

Gatekeeper wrote:

The other question I have is that does the theory then carry over to "Dont take Zoanthropes and Venomthropes" because they are more for synapse and support of the longevity of troops?

I wouldn't say to deliberately go out-of-your-way to avoid Synapse, more that you should design your army based on the idea that Synapse is not required. If a Zoanthrope is worthwhile purely on the basis of a 3++ and Warp Lance, then he should still be a good option to consider. However as a cheap Synapse-provider, who really cares when you can roll without it? Take him for his firepower rather than the support benefits.

Basically I repeatedly see people posting lists that start with a Tervigon and 30 of his friends, and simply see a 350pt black hole of mutually-dependant models that are worthless unless the whole package survives. Your Termagants need to be babysat constantly, either by this monstrously expensive Synapse provider or have secondary Zoanthrope and Primes assigned to them. On the other hand, anything that the Tervigon is trying to support is potentially a single shooting phase away from explosive death and subsequent panic.

When you compare a Tervigon and any of the other 'big' monstrous creatures, you can directly see how massive a cost the Gant-spawns, Synapse and Scoring ability really come to. As well as nearly 100pts of extra cost (Note this is before you consider the unlocking-Gants) you lose a 2+ save and a Torrent, or Bio Plasma, or a Trygons fightiness or a Mawlocks burrowing. This is a *massive* cost that I would argue you can do without.
By removing certain units as overly dependant, you effectively lock yourself into a new style that has much fewer options, but you also get much more points to play between them. This is not to say that it is objectively better, more that I can see this style being successful at higher levels and opening enough monster-points that you can play against opponents that exist to kill (See Eldar/Tau).

As an aside, if you are not using them to Infiltrate, why would you want the Manufactorum Genestealers? Hit & Run is nice but it's not a superpower...

Mozzamanx wrote:
As an aside, if you are not using them to Infiltrate, why would you want the Manufactorum Genestealers? Hit & Run is nice but it's not a superpower...

Because you're running 5 man squads anyways and they get free extra infiltrate rules when you want and free hit and run?

It would be stupid not to take free stuff...



Building a synapseless list is something I brought up....weeks back in this thread...and while I've tried synapseless or synapse independent lists...they're just less powerful than integrated synapse lists.



The important thing to remember is having a backup plan, oh my tervigon went down, good thing I brought zoeys and warriors...or...another tervigon.

I've been playing tervigons since the day the 5th ed book came out and only had one die on 2 separate occassions.

They're not an easy synapse to kill when sitting in the backfield. Neither are Warriors.

People just aren't using their synapse creatures correctly.

Backfield: Tervigon / Warriors
Midfield: Flyrant / Walkrant / Zoanthropes
Enemy's Territory: Trygon Prime / Shrikes / Eventual Walkrant

And Warriors are the most flexible of those with the ability to get outflank, multiple wounds, and a 4+, not to mention a cannon.

You're looking for cheap flexible backfield units that can put out some damage and are hard to kill from afar? It's 3 man warrior squads with a strangler.
Boom: You just provided synapse for your heavies.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I've been running into Thunderfire Cannons lately?

Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?

I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?

Should I take 1, 2, 3 layers?

 ductvader wrote:
[

Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?

I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?

Should I take 1, 2, 3 layers?

I've been trying using a void shield generator with 3 shields instead of venomthropes and have liked the results. What I've noticed happening is that it keeps my Flyrants and Crones relatively safe in case I lose the roll to go first. Then it provides some defense for things like Carnifexes & Zoanthropes as they move up a bit. Also, after a few shields are knocked down, my opponents tend to ignore it, so they regenerate and then late game, they're providing defense for my units that are holding objectives that are within range of the shield.

So while not as army-wide as Venomthropes are, I think the voidshields are better.

Trebloc wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
[

Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?

I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?

Should I take 1, 2, 3 layers?

I've been trying using a void shield generator with 3 shields instead of venomthropes and have liked the results. What I've noticed happening is that it keeps my Flyrants and Crones relatively safe in case I lose the roll to go first. Then it provides some defense for things like Carnifexes & Zoanthropes as they move up a bit. Also, after a few shields are knocked down, my opponents tend to ignore it, so they regenerate and then late game, they're providing defense for my units that are holding objectives that are within range of the shield.

So while not as army-wide as Venomthropes are, I think the voidshields are better.

I was going to do both...

 ductvader wrote:

Trebloc wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
[

Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?

I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?

Should I take 1, 2, 3 layers?

I've been trying using a void shield generator with 3 shields instead of venomthropes and have liked the results. What I've noticed happening is that it keeps my Flyrants and Crones relatively safe in case I lose the roll to go first. Then it provides some defense for things like Carnifexes & Zoanthropes as they move up a bit. Also, after a few shields are knocked down, my opponents tend to ignore it, so they regenerate and then late game, they're providing defense for my units that are holding objectives that are within range of the shield.

So while not as army-wide as Venomthropes are, I think the voidshields are better.

I was going to do both...

Void shields need an FAQ to clarify how they interact with blast-type weapons. I originally interpreted the rule that a blast weapon would just cause 1 hit on a void shield, but the internet says it would cause one hit per model under the blast weapon - making a single battle cannon able to take out all 3 void shields with just 1 shot. The rules use the word "Target" when describing how the hits are resolved, rather than "Model" or "Unit", which makes me believe it will be FAQ'ed that it's 1 hit per blast until the void shield collapses. Until then that's just one other thing to be aware of when using the VSG. I think it's a great idea for protecting vs alpha strikes, overall though.

Aren't hits always resolved simultaneuously?

So even if a battle cannon got 30 hits, they would just roll 30 hits against void shield one before going to the next with the next unit?

All hits from a given shooting attack are resolved simultaneously. Can you drop multiple shields with one shooting attack?

 ductvader wrote:
Aren't hits always resolved simultaneuously?

So even if a battle cannon got 30 hits, they would just roll 30 hits against void shield one before going to the next with the next unit?

The void shield rules state that further hits on a "target" are resolved against it, if the shield goes down first. This is to say, a quad gun fires and scores 4 hits. If the void shield goes down in the first hit, the last 3 hits are resolved to-wound vs the original target.

where the rule falls short is that a single blast weapon can cause multiple hits on a unit, but if you think about it thematically the shell would impact only once on the void shield before it actually got through to the unit behind it -- i do realize that rules =/= fluff but a lot of FAQs do rule in the 'common sense' fashion. Until such time however it is better to play it safe and expect blasts to be extra-powerful vs void shields and space models accordingly.

Okay, sorry to go off topic.

For the purposes of stopping a thunderfire though, it sounds like a great buy.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Void shields need an FAQ to clarify how they interact with blast-type weapons. I originally interpreted the rule that a blast weapon would just cause 1 hit on a void shield, but the internet says it would cause one hit per model under the blast weapon - making a single battle cannon able to take out all 3 void shields with just 1 shot. The rules use the word "Target" when describing how the hits are resolved, rather than "Model" or "Unit", which makes me believe it will be FAQ'ed that it's 1 hit per blast until the void shield collapses. Until then that's just one other thing to be aware of when using the VSG. I think it's a great idea for protecting vs alpha strikes, overall though.

This is the current RAW so you need to spread out your gribblies as a battle cannon shot that hits them can potentially vaporize all 3 shields in 1 go.

However, IMO the VSG (Void Shield Generator) is still a broken piece of equipment that is really too good in regular games. It's main attraction for me is that it stops all ranged small-arms fire if the opponent fails to penetrate the void shields. So F-U venom-spam DE. Muahahahaha.....


If your gaming group allows for Stronghold, definitely get the VSG. It is totally worth it.

 ductvader wrote:
Okay, sorry to go off topic.

For the purposes of stopping a thunderfire though, it sounds like a great buy.

It is awesome.

Get it if you can.

Moreover, it is an impassable building and another LOS-blocker for your army as well.

You are Tyranids, why do you care for objectives? Go for the jugular, wipe them out

When I do get around to acquiring Nids I shall try to pack as few troops as possible and just try to play the denial game. It should be interesting.

Today's moral dilemma is keeping Trygon in my TAC roster.

He's been such an underperformer, but he's my favorite model. A tear will be shed if he gets cut.

 Iechine wrote:
Today's moral dilemma is keeping Trygon in my TAC roster.

He's been such an underperformer, but he's my favorite model. A tear will be shed if he gets cut.

Prime or no?

 ductvader wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Very well presented thoughts. Exalted!

And a great reason to take manufactorum stealers...while there's an argument on whether they score...no one I play would attempt to say they don't

There's now no argument. THe arguments against are absolutely bankrupt if you read the actual dataslate. Even the naysayers have given up

Just to repeat...


In the Vanguard dataslate, it specifically states that "a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3) and for formations, "the Levels of Alliance Rules do apply to them." (p4) It further states that, "the battlefield role... can be found in the dataslate."

The Genestealers' battlefield role is defined, in the Dataslate, as troops. The levels of Alliance apply and therefore the Genestealers are scoring.

 ductvader wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Today's moral dilemma is keeping Trygon in my TAC roster.

He's been such an underperformer, but he's my favorite model. A tear will be shed if he gets cut.

Prime or no?

Either. He could be replaced by another Mawloc with toxin sacs, or a T-fex, or a biovore brood even.

 Iechine wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Today's moral dilemma is keeping Trygon in my TAC roster.

He's been such an underperformer, but he's my favorite model. A tear will be shed if he gets cut.

Prime or no?

Either. He could be replaced by another Mawloc with toxin sacs, or a T-fex, or a biovore brood even.

Well, what have you been running him as and how have you been running him?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Even the naysayers have given up

Mostly because the naysayers are tired of being mocked and agree on intent so it's not worth arguing anymore.
There is still an argument that can be made but I'd only do so in a polite way instead of being insulted (like I was in YMDC). But let's not hash that out here, okay?

One thing I've noticed in here: A lot of the lists and discussions I've been seeing are in the 1500+ point range. How are people viewing lower points Nids (1250, 1000, etc)?

I'm going to be entering a tournament soon that's 1000 points and thinking of using a list like this:

Flyrant - TL Devs w/Brain Leech Worms 230
Flyrant - TL Devs w/Brain Leech Worms 230

Genestealer Brood - 70
Genestealer Brood - 70
Warrior Brood - 90

Crone - 155
Crone - 155

I'm tempted to drop a Genestealer brood in favor of getting a HW Warrior, adding some numbers to my other brood and picking up Hive Commander on a Flyrant for Outflanking the Genestealers. Thoughts?

 ductvader wrote:

I was going to do both...

Yeah, I thought about that too. But I don't want to spend too many points on support vrs stuff doing damage. Not saying it's a bad idea, just something to think about. I've been using 3 units of 1 Zoanthrope to maximize my psychic powers and synapse, and that has been nice.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Even the naysayers have given up

Mostly because the naysayers are tired of being mocked and agree on intent so it's not worth arguing anymore.
There is still an argument that can be made but I'd only do so in a polite way instead of being insulted (like I was in YMDC). But let's not hash that out here, okay?

Sure. I do apologise if I contributed to a pretty ornery thread, feel free to disagree with that last post where i quoted the actual dataslate wording which seems clear to me - of course it's always good to interrogate a line of reasoning.

Newtype Zero wrote:
picking up Hive Commander on a Flyrant for Outflanking the Genestealers. Thoughts?

Genestealers outflank on their own, you don't need Hive Commander for that.

rigeld2 wrote:

Newtype Zero wrote:
picking up Hive Commander on a Flyrant for Outflanking the Genestealers. Thoughts?

Genestealers outflank on their own, you don't need Hive Commander for that.

Fun fact: Lictors and Deathleaper can Outflank too.

 Gloomfang wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Newtype Zero wrote:
picking up Hive Commander on a Flyrant for Outflanking the Genestealers. Thoughts?

Genestealers outflank on their own, you don't need Hive Commander for that.

Fun fact: Lictors and Deathleaper can Outflank too.

Yes but with zero-scatter deep strike why would you outflank?