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 SHUPPET wrote:

If unbound is allowed just take 2 regen Tyrannofexes and a Zoanthrope, your entire army is cost effective Terminator wounds, likely regenerating, with insane anti-infantry potential, excellent AT with eGrubs + assault, and over the top durability. If other people are running battle forged you are unlikely to lose to anything that you could otherwise beat at all with this list. In fact I think Tyrannofex is great at 500 points. Tervigon is considerable but quite an investment, walking Tyrant is another cheaper option to consider if you want to jam something beefier in a battle forged list.

Yes unbound is allowed, though if I remember right the league is requiring unbound lists to still bring an HQ (need to check). I hadn't thought about the Tyrannofex for such a small game. Could definitely give that a try.

 SHUPPET wrote:

I really like the second list however and think I'll give it a go at 500 pts this weekend, except maybe eGrubs over the extra gants

Those are quite kind words, thanks!

 jy2 wrote:

Are you set with those lists? Can you change them? And are FW allowed?

Lists are fully changeable. The league has generally just allowed people to bring what they wish each week, so I can tweak as necessary (though they request that our lists be built prior - both to prevent tailoring and to save time). Forgeword is fully allowed. One of our old regulars was running the Siege of Vraks chaos army and a couple people have some forgeworld items. The only restrictions are if you want to bring a Lord of War it has to be the official model and must be painted.


Sadly I don't have a Malanthrope (yet - shop owner will be doing a forgeworld order sooner or later) so I won't be able to run the first list. Any particular reason the first list uses Biovores while the second has an Exocrine? I like and have both units, just curious as to the reasoning seeing as the overall construction is similar.

We'll I think TFex is best in small points games thx to crazy durability and excellent versatility, probably take regen unless you are running 2 tho just to secure the regen investment

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Didnt get much of a response a few pages back, but Im still debating these two lists.
[snip]

I like the second list better, but maybe swap the Mawloc for a third Carnifex. I like Mawlocs, but given the rest of the list I'm not sure you will really get much out of him him given you have four flying Tyrants up in the enemy's face and a third Carnifex will give more raw killing power (especially against high toughness/AV threats). Also maybe consider dropping one of the Ripper swarms for some more Gargoyles (should yield another 6-ish). I've found they work best in units of ~20 or so. Any less than that and they get gunned down too much to really tarpit anything significant for long and the added bodies help with bubble wrapping your slower moving units.

 Wilson wrote:
So with the new assassins data slate out i'm now thinking that maybe a horrific allegiance is required?
First of all, look at the rules for the new Culexis, taken from BOLS;
[snip]
Psychic Abomination - Psykers at -3Ld with 12", no warp charges generated within 12", powers only cast on a 6 within 12"

How much you willing to bet that's what they are going to do to Shadow in the Warp when the 7th edition book rolls around? Definitely fits with how it is described in the fluff...


Anyway, the league is restarting next week at 500 points. I have not had much experience at such a low point value with the 6th edition book so any advice would be welcome.

List #1: [Field Tested - 1 win, 1 loss]

Spoiler:

HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Scything Talons, Stranglethorn Cannon

TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts
TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts

HEAVY: 1x Exocrine

First test-list basically made with what I already had with me that was both based and fully painted. It worked out fairly well in the Maelstrom missions thanks to the Hormagaunts, but I'm a bit concerned about what to do if someone decides to be cheeky and bring a flyer, as only the Exocrine can really even attempt to hurt one... Also I did find lethality was a bit weak with this one, as the Hormagaunts don't have enough numbers to do anything other than objective grab (which they did well, to be fair).


List #2: [Untested]

Spoiler:

HQ: 1x Tervigon with Crushing Claws

TROOPS: 15x Termagants
TROOPS: 15x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Exocrine

Same idea as above, but with Termagants instead. Bit more swarmy (which I like), but really slow moving and no warlord traits...

List #3: [Untested, Unbound]

Spoiler:

HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs

FAST: 10x Gargoyles
FAST: 10x Gargoyles
FAST: 1x Harpy with twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (in-case-of-Quantum Shielding)

This is my "mean" list. Unbound is allowed at our group, but most people run normal armies for Objective Secured (only one person has managed to win with an unbound list so far since 7th has dropped, and in all cases the games were close so...). List has lots of fast-moving threats, though scoring might be a bit of an issue without OS and the two flying monsters. Not sure if I want to bring this though, as the purpose of the new point bracket is to encourage some of our new players to come play on league nights. As such, two flying monsters might be a bit overwhelming for someone who has just started their collection (not to mention in general).

I like list one, though I'd have run a Dakkafex, because that is what I'd have handy, toss on Adrenals and it's real close in points...just grab Hormies with leftovers.

Oh, and as you know, I'm a fan of Tyranofex. The lower point the game, the greater the dominance.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think 2 3 man units of Warriors with a cannon each for the same price outclasses it in practically every manner. Crushing Claws being a terrible upgrade, and Tervigon being one the most cost effecient units to shoot at in the dex even makes eGrubs unreliable.

I think he was overpowered last edition, underpowered this one - I do however think he is actually balanced at <1000 pts where his spawns add a larger percentage to your army size, his versatility is more relevant and his durability more tanky.

Thanks for your input. But I'm looking specifically at Termagants vs Ripper Swarms.

I'm thinking of:

4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)

I can see how the Termagants can actually get more work done since they have Devourers but it is also 60pts more. Not to mention small arms fire or blasts will make them their primary target since most the rest of my army is MCs. So the may be whittled down quite a bit before they get to do their "work." The Rippers, while less of a contribution to the attacking of my opponents army, still have objective secured, and can be annoyances that come in turn 2+ into the game that my opponent will have to deal with.

Thoughts? (Aside: Can Termagants even screen our MCs like the Carnifex or Mawloc for a cover save? They seem too small in physical size...)

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Lists are fully changeable. The league has generally just allowed people to bring what they wish each week, so I can tweak as necessary (though they request that our lists be built prior - both to prevent tailoring and to save time). Forgeword is fully allowed. One of our old regulars was running the Siege of Vraks chaos army and a couple people have some forgeworld items. The only restrictions are if you want to bring a Lord of War it has to be the official model and must be painted.


Sadly I don't have a Malanthrope (yet - shop owner will be doing a forgeworld order sooner or later) so I won't be able to run the first list. Any particular reason the first list uses Biovores while the second has an Exocrine? I like and have both units, just curious as to the reasoning seeing as the overall construction is similar.

Because with both the flyrant and malanthrope in there, plus 2 troops, you've only got 95-pts left to spare. Not enough for a TMC, but just enough for 2 biovores or 15 gargoyles.


With the 2nd list, as it appears you want another MC in your list, I just left your exocrine in there. When I make list suggestions, I try to minimize the overhauling of a list and to use as many models as you originally had on.

 syypher wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think 2 3 man units of Warriors with a cannon each for the same price outclasses it in practically every manner. Crushing Claws being a terrible upgrade, and Tervigon being one the most cost effecient units to shoot at in the dex even makes eGrubs unreliable.

I think he was overpowered last edition, underpowered this one - I do however think he is actually balanced at <1000 pts where his spawns add a larger percentage to your army size, his versatility is more relevant and his durability more tanky.

Thanks for your input. But I'm looking specifically at Termagants vs Ripper Swarms.

I'm thinking of:

4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)

I can see how the Termagants can actually get more work done since they have Devourers but it is also 60pts more. Not to mention small arms fire or blasts will make them their primary target since most the rest of my army is MCs. So the may be whittled down quite a bit before they get to do their "work." The Rippers, while less of a contribution to the attacking of my opponents army, still have objective secured, and can be annoyances that come in turn 2+ into the game that my opponent will have to deal with.

Thoughts? (Aside: Can Termagants even screen our MCs like the Carnifex or Mawloc for a cover save? They seem too small in physical size...)

I think you should also consider Termagant Brood, x20 x3 (240) In general Nids do best when they avoid upgrades, and use the "Lots o'figures!" stratagem. Twenty gribbles can fill a lot of table space, and have a decent volume of fire. In addition, every loss represents half the cost. I greatly prefer to mix Devilgaunts into Broods, so I can use cheap gaunts as losses.

Slight change in topic but what does everyone think is THE best unit Tyranids have ever had through out all of the editions?
E.g 6th edition flying hive tyrant with dual devourers?
5th edition Doom of Malantai?
3rd edition Carnifex?

I'm not familiar with all the gems through the ages as I've only just picked up nids this year but I'd liked to discover there former glories.

 Wilson wrote:
Slight change in topic but what does everyone think is THE best unit Tyranids have ever had through out all of the editions?
E.g 6th edition flying hive tyrant with dual devourers?
5th edition Doom of Malantai?
3rd edition Carnifex?

I'm not familiar with all the gems through the ages as I've only just picked up nids this year but I'd liked to discover there former glories.

I'll take a gander. I started at the end of 4th Edition and the beginning of 5th Ed. 40K.


4th Edition Nids (4th Edition and early part of 5E 40K):

This was the golden age of Nidzilla and the genestealer.

Nidzilla was strong, with 114-pt dakkafexes and 200-pt godfexes (with 2+, 5W, T7 and up to 8-10 S10 attacks on the charge!).

Genestealers under 4E rules were king. There was nothing more feared than the 4E stealers, who were each fully customizable and who could consolidate from combat into another combat!

A special mention would have to go out to Without Number termagants, who could respawn whenever the unit got wiped out and was the perfect complement to nidzilla.

After 5E came out, nidzilla became the only competitive Tyranid build as genestealers could no longer consolidate from combat into combat.



5th Edition Nids (5th Edition and early part of 6E 40K):

The Doom of Ma'lantai was probably the only must-take unit during the golden age of 5E. That guy was so good for the price that he was an auto-include in almost every Tyranid list.

However, probably the single most important unit of the era was the tervigon. Tyranids would win or lose by their tervigons.

Honorable mention would go to the Hive Guards, who were the most reliable and consistent shooter the bugs had in an edition primarily dominated by MSU mech (5th Ed. 40K), and probably the Swarmlord, who was arguably the 2nd greatest force-multiplier unit on the army (after the tervigon).

With the dawn of 6th Ed. 40K, you get a hint of what's to come with the Flyrant and the new flyer rules.

Honorable mention would go to gargoyles as one of the greatest distraction units in all of the Tyranid codices ever.



6th Edition Nids (6th Edition and now 7E 40K):

The flyrant became the best unit in 6th Ed, and his role increased even more in 7th as an already excellent unit became even better!

6E was also the dawn of the cheap MC. Carnifexes, while not as cheap and customizable as 4E bugs, dropped down in price significantly. So did the Mawloc, tyrannofex and cheap FMC's. It was no longer any single unit that dominated. Rather, it was an amalgamation of cheap big guys that helped to make Tyranids somewhat competitive.

6E bugs in 7E also introduced what already is considered one of the most important bugs ever. He's Forgeworld, he just came out and bug players are already proclaiming him a must-take in every Tyranid list. Yes, it's the Malanthrope.

Honorable mention would have to go to the venomthrope, probably the single most improved unit in the dex compared to previous edition. If not for the Malanthrope, the humble venomthrope, who is also the 2nd greatest force-multiplier in the dex, would probably be the second most important unit in the codex.



So who is best?

So of all the editions, who is the single best unit? Now this is my own personal opinion and I know there will be those who will disagree, but to me, this is arguably the best unit ever to come from the Tyranid linneage:

I started at the very beginning of 3rd edition and the best Tyranid unit was the 3rd edition main rulebook Tyrant.

At the start of 3rd edition there were no codex's of any kind. All army rules were printed in the main rulebook for each Army. They were short. The Tyrant had good stats. He was one of the very few str 6 toughness 6 models in the game and he came with a strong anti-tank gun. What made him so powerful was his independent character rule. He could attach to a unit of 30 Termagants and become untargetable until you killed all 30 Gants first. Imagine a Tyrant with 30 ablative wounds. We used to call it the Hive Tyrant delivery system.

Also in this edition characters could allocate attacks in combat and he just allocated his attacks to anything that could hurt him, like another character. Nothing survived long enough to attack back in combat, except another Tyrant.

Because of those rules the 3rd edition main rulebook Tyrant was the most powerful.

 Wilson wrote:

coredump wrote:
Only works if the unit is made entirely of psykers. Otherwise they will use that Ld for the roll.

Not true, you target the unit yes but say there was a Psyker in that unit and it happened to have the highest LD then it would be effected.

e.g Coteaz in a unit of marines
Psychic scream @ -5 LD on the unit.
-8 with a Calexus Assasin..

No, it doesn't work like that.

Sure, Coteaz's Ld may drop to 5, or 2... but the *unit* uses the highest Ld, which will be the Sgt. at 9. (or any other IC or model in the unit with a high Ld.)

The only way this works is if the entire unit is made of psykers.... (wreck face on grey knights...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 syypher wrote:

I'm thinking of:

4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)

First, *if* you decide to use devilgaunts, I would mix them up. For the same 240pts you can get 2 broods of 20 gaunts, and give 10 of them devourers. Those go in back, so any shooting kills the 4pt models first, and not 8pt models.

There are two reasons for using DSrippers.
1) DS gives them added mobility, you can drop into enemy deployment etc. Places it would be hard/long to get gaunts to just by move/runs.
2) Frees up points for models that are better than our troop choices. Devilgaunts are nice. But your brood of 15 is the same price as 3 biovores, and almost as much as a devilfex or Crone.

I think OS can be very powerful for armies that can leverage it, I don't think we have the proper troops units. I think 2-3 DSrippers are plenty, and you can grab gargs instead of gaunt broods.

 syypher wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think 2 3 man units of Warriors with a cannon each for the same price outclasses it in practically every manner. Crushing Claws being a terrible upgrade, and Tervigon being one the most cost effecient units to shoot at in the dex even makes eGrubs unreliable.

I think he was overpowered last edition, underpowered this one - I do however think he is actually balanced at <1000 pts where his spawns add a larger percentage to your army size, his versatility is more relevant and his durability more tanky.

Thanks for your input. But I'm looking specifically at Termagants vs Ripper Swarms.

I'm thinking of:

4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)

I can see how the Termagants can actually get more work done since they have Devourers but it is also 60pts more. Not to mention small arms fire or blasts will make them their primary target since most the rest of my army is MCs. So the may be whittled down quite a bit before they get to do their "work." The Rippers, while less of a contribution to the attacking of my opponents army, still have objective secured, and can be annoyances that come in turn 2+ into the game that my opponent will have to deal with.

Thoughts? (Aside: Can Termagants even screen our MCs like the Carnifex or Mawloc for a cover save? They seem too small in physical size...)

Sorry, my post was to Jy2 in response to his views on the Tervigon.

Termagants do not need devourers to do more than the Rippers. They already have 10 S4 AP5 shots which is immediately more than Rippers have. They provide a cover save for most MC's and any infantry, Rippers do not. They have 10 wounds to tie something up in combat a LOT longer than Rippers who get instadeathed, and they actually stand a chance of doing a wound or two in CC, not including the obvious effeciency bonus given to them by fleshborers. And they do all this 5 points cheaper than DS Rippers. I Think Rippers are extremely overrated and a really bad choice in general. At 500 points its even worse, as the damage done by 20 termagants even with fleshborers is very relevant. Taking a full squad of Devourers is a bad idea, unless you are planning to outflank them, they are just a big glass cannon that will not be as points effecient as taking a screen. I think before you start adding devourers you need at least 10 fleshborer gants in the squad to screen, probably 15 is better.

IMO the best troop choice you can take at any size, is a 10 man unit of Termagants. Nothing else is necessary. Those points go much further placed into something better.

Except you now need a synapse babysitter, and a way to get to objectives on the other side of the board....

Gaunts are better for crowd control, speed bumps, and if in a larger brood, tarpitting.
But Gargs are even better for just about all of the above, and are much faster. (Can't tarpit that wraithknight if you can't catch it.

Rippers will be fine outside of synapse, are easier to hide, can DS where you need them. They are 5 points more, but allow you to skimp on synapse creatures.

Of course having a gun does more shooting damage than not having a gun.... but 10 fleshborers just isn't doing much in any case.

You don't have to take Gargs tho, you do have to take either Rippers or Termagants.

The Rippers don't give you a 3+ venomthrope cover. If your Terms are providing cover for an exocrine or Tyranno or whatever, why would they ever be out of Synapse range?

Rippers are forced into sitting on objectives to be worthwhile and doing it poorly in comparison to just other armies troop choices


And since you have to take the unit twice, its 20 fleshborers. The lower the points the more the difference is going to be relevant

 syypher wrote:
Q: Devourer Termagants 10-15 per unit vs Deep Striking Ripper Swarms for Troops @ 1500 and @1850? It seems like you get a lot more punch out of the rest of your list but loose a lot of objective secured. What have you guys been running/testing and how successful was it?

Devourer Gants are quite powerful. The best way to use them is a Hive Tyrant with Hive commander outflanking a Mixed squad of them. I generally would argue that you should usually include 10 Spinefist or Fleshborer Gants as part of the squad as cheaper ablative wounds. A good squad would look something like this:
25 Termagants (10 Spinefists, 15 Devourers) + Hive commander on a Tyrant for a total of 180 points. That is more than a Dakkafex. But against many things it is going to do more damage and have a bit more survivability. You probably aren't going to see it on many tournament lists, but it is a viable unit.

Now, I don't want to rehash my Tervigon Rant. But if you believe in the Tervigon, and must take him as a troop, your best bet for doing so is running the following.
Hive Commander on a Tyrant
30 Termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 Devourers)
Tervigon (Electroshock Grubs, Crushing Claws)
For a total of 420 points. But this give you good flexibility with your list, and allows you to pick at game time which unit is outflanking. If your opponent is running Lemun Russes or other Mech in the backfield, Outflank the Tervigon. If he is running Devastators or other infantry, outflank the Devourer Gants. I used to run this often at the start of 6th. I have moved away from it since, preferring to spend my points on Fast Attack and Heavy support units, but I won many, many games using that troop configuration as part of my list. I may give it another spin to see if I can figure out what JY2 sees in the Tervigon besides wistful memories.

 jy2 wrote:

Because with both the flyrant and malanthrope in there, plus 2 troops, you've only got 95-pts left to spare. Not enough for a TMC, but just enough for 2 biovores or 15 gargoyles.

With the 2nd list, as it appears you want another MC in your list, I just left your exocrine in there. When I make list suggestions, I try to minimize the overhauling of a list and to use as many models as you originally had on.

Ah, ok gotcha! Also any thoughts on what to do with an unbound allowed army? On one hand one can go with full killing power, but so far our group's experience has been doing such leaves you vulnerable to the guy who brought a gazillion scoring units.



Also in regards to the Tervigon, besides the nerfs it received couldn't some of its falling out of favor be due to the way most Tyranid lists are constructed now-a-days? The starting point is generally two flying Tyrants which innately puts the list towards a threat-overload style which the Tervigon doesn't really mesh well with. From my own games, I've noticed the Tervgion does better in a more reactive pseudo-gunline sort of list where it's spawning ability allows it to maintain tarpits and thus counteract the enemy's advance while shooting elements (Biovores, Hive Guard, Exocrine, Carnifexes, Warriors with bio-cannon) pummel the enemy from the midfield. Brood Progenitor's counter-attack buff also plays into this sort of list, since the Termagants affected are generally going to be used purely as speed bumps and the benefit ties in with their being reactionary units (shoot -> overwatch -> attack as though one had charged).

 SHUPPET wrote:
You don't have to take Gargs tho, you do have to take either Rippers or Termagants.

The Rippers don't give you a 3+ venomthrope cover. If your Terms are providing cover for an exocrine or Tyranno or whatever, why would they ever be out of Synapse range?

Rippers are forced into sitting on objectives to be worthwhile and doing it poorly in comparison to just other armies troop choices

And since you have to take the unit twice, its 20 fleshborers. The lower the points the more the difference is going to be relevant

Why do you keep saying rippers can't give a cover save?

*IF* all the gaunts are doing is providing a cover save, then they probably will be in synapse range; rippers however give you more options because they don't *need* to be in synapse range. Gaunts mean you also need to spend the points on a synapse source, and not just one, but enough synapse sources so it isn't worthwhile to just take out one 'lynchpin' unit and make all your troops run away. Sure, that Exocrine also likes synapse, but if it fails IB, it just shoots at the closest target.

You are also now relegating those gaunts to only providing a cover save, or otherwise staying close. The rippers can do that, *or* they can DS anywhere on the board to either grab an objective, or tie up something like a devastator or long fang squad. Yes, they die quickly to S6 attacks... its part of the trade off. But against the rest, they have 90% of the wounds of the gaunt squad.

Sometimes I would keep my gaunts in reserves to keep them protected for a couple of turns, but then they walk on and can't get anywhere. Now I have the option of keeping the rippers in reserve, and they can get anywhere.

coredump wrote:
Why do you keep saying rippers can't give a cover save?

*IF* all the gaunts are doing is providing a cover save, then they probably will be in synapse range; rippers however give you more options because they don't *need* to be in synapse range. Gaunts mean you also need to spend the points on a synapse source, and not just one, but enough synapse sources so it isn't worthwhile to just take out one 'lynchpin' unit and make all your troops run away. Sure, that Exocrine also likes synapse, but if it fails IB, it just shoots at the closest target.

You are also now relegating those gaunts to only providing a cover save, or otherwise staying close. The rippers can do that, *or* they can DS anywhere on the board to either grab an objective, or tie up something like a devastator or long fang squad. Yes, they die quickly to S6 attacks... its part of the trade off. But against the rest, they have 90% of the wounds of the gaunt squad.

Sometimes I would keep my gaunts in reserves to keep them protected for a couple of turns, but then they walk on and can't get anywhere. Now I have the option of keeping the rippers in reserve, and they can get anywhere.

You count on gants to give you a cover save for deployment and first turn. Beyond that they are either dead or moving off to score objectives or tarpit. It isn't that Rippers can't provide a cover save, it is just that 3 rippers form such a small screen, and they are also way, way less survivable than gants because of T3 with 3 wounds, and if they are providing covers saves, they are not deep striking.

I would rather have Gants that can contribute turn 1 than rippers who can't.

Also synapse is important for several things. Most notably Carnifexes. They lose the ability to shoot if they fail synapse, and giving up shooting for them is huge. I've also lost combat with a Carnifex out of synapse and been swept by an ordinary Tac Squad.

There is a bit of a balance. I think some deep striking rippers seem like a reasonable option on paper, though I've never had them prove worthwhile in an actual game. The key is 1 to 2 squads of gants or gargoyles.

tag8833 wrote:

I've also lost combat with a Carnifex out of synapse and been swept by an ordinary Tac Squad.

A Carnifex is fearless innately, so even being out of synapse that shouldn't have happened barring the old 6th edition Terrify power...

tag8833 wrote:

Now, I don't want to rehash my Tervigon Rant. But if you believe in the Tervigon, and must take him as a troop, your best bet for doing so is running the following.
Hive Commander on a Tyrant
30 Termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 Devourers)
Tervigon (Electroshock Grubs, Crushing Claws)
For a total of 420 points. But this give you good flexibility with your list, and allows you to pick at game time which unit is outflanking. If your opponent is running Lemun Russes or other Mech in the backfield, Outflank the Tervigon. If he is running Devastators or other infantry, outflank the Devourer Gants. I used to run this often at the start of 6th. I have moved away from it since, preferring to spend my points on Fast Attack and Heavy support units, but I won many, many games using that troop configuration as part of my list. I may give it another spin to see if I can figure out what JY2 sees in the Tervigon besides wistful memories.

To be fair, the tervigon-termagant combo got nerfed even further in 7th. No, it isn't by their rules or any of the core rule changes in 7E (they actually got better in 7E with ObSec). Rather, it is by the 7E Maelstrom missions. While they are good at anchoring objections in Eternal War missions, their lack of mobility made them more of a liability in the Maelstrom ones. What good is sitting on your home objective if you don't roll it in Maelstrom, and how are you getting them into the far objectives or your opponent's deployment zones? That, more than anything, is why many veteran gamers have shifted away from a tervigon-centric Tyranid build to a more ripper-based Tyranid build. Rippers with their ability to deepstrike give you more of an advantage in Maelstrom-based missions.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Because with both the flyrant and malanthrope in there, plus 2 troops, you've only got 95-pts left to spare. Not enough for a TMC, but just enough for 2 biovores or 15 gargoyles.

With the 2nd list, as it appears you want another MC in your list, I just left your exocrine in there. When I make list suggestions, I try to minimize the overhauling of a list and to use as many models as you originally had on.

Ah, ok gotcha! Also any thoughts on what to do with an unbound allowed army? On one hand one can go with full killing power, but so far our group's experience has been doing such leaves you vulnerable to the guy who brought a gazillion scoring units.



Also in regards to the Tervigon, besides the nerfs it received couldn't some of its falling out of favor be due to the way most Tyranid lists are constructed now-a-days? The starting point is generally two flying Tyrants which innately puts the list towards a threat-overload style which the Tervigon doesn't really mesh well with. From my own games, I've noticed the Tervgion does better in a more reactive pseudo-gunline sort of list where it's spawning ability allows it to maintain tarpits and thus counteract the enemy's advance while shooting elements (Biovores, Hive Guard, Exocrine, Carnifexes, Warriors with bio-cannon) pummel the enemy from the midfield. Brood Progenitor's counter-attack buff also plays into this sort of list, since the Termagants affected are generally going to be used purely as speed bumps and the benefit ties in with their being reactionary units (shoot -> overwatch -> attack as though one had charged).

At 500-pts unbound? That's easy. I'd go with your List #3, or a modified version of it (with more gargoyles and mawloc over the exo).

With regards to the tervigon-based lists, IMO it isn't really the MTO (Maximum Threat Overload) play-style that discouraged the use of tervigons. I was still running MTO builds pre-Skyblight with tervigons back in 6th. The difference between then (6E) and now (7E) is the addition of the Maelstrom missions, where that 315-pts of troops could be a liability due to its lack of mobility. In most Eternal War missions, tervigon-based lists can still be competitive. In mixed scenarios like the BAO, which uses both Eternal War missions and a modified Maelstrom one, he still has his uses thanks to the EW mission though he is somewhat sub-optimal due to the Maelstrom ones. However, in a purely Maelstrom scenario, he then becomes a somewhat hit-or-miss unit.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

I've also lost combat with a Carnifex out of synapse and been swept by an ordinary Tac Squad.

A Carnifex is fearless innately, so even being out of synapse that shouldn't have happened barring the old 6th edition Terrify power...

Oops. It was the first time I've lost synapse (only on one flank) in quite some time, and I forgot Carnifex were fearless. I was playing 2 on 2 vs 2 players who brought Drop Pods, and all of the Space wolves dropped in and took out my synapse. Fortunately, I had the Swarmlord + 2 Tyrant guard on the Right Flank, so was able to fairly easily carve through all of the death company, the Space wolf HQ, and lots of other things. I was heading to aid my ally who was tarpitting a blood thirst with Tac Marines, but the last space wolf managed to take Swarmy down. Luckily the game ended for a crushing victory for the Hive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Now, I don't want to rehash my Tervigon Rant. But if you believe in the Tervigon, and must take him as a troop, your best bet for doing so is running the following.
Hive Commander on a Tyrant
30 Termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 Devourers)
Tervigon (Electroshock Grubs, Crushing Claws)
For a total of 420 points. But this give you good flexibility with your list, and allows you to pick at game time which unit is outflanking. If your opponent is running Lemun Russes or other Mech in the backfield, Outflank the Tervigon. If he is running Devastators or other infantry, outflank the Devourer Gants. I used to run this often at the start of 6th. I have moved away from it since, preferring to spend my points on Fast Attack and Heavy support units, but I won many, many games using that troop configuration as part of my list. I may give it another spin to see if I can figure out what JY2 sees in the Tervigon besides wistful memories.

To be fair, the tervigon-termagant combo got nerfed even further in 7th. No, it isn't by their rules or any of the core rule changes in 7E (they actually got better in 7E with ObSec). Rather, it is by the 7E Maelstrom missions. While they are good at anchoring objections in Eternal War missions, their lack of mobility made them more of a liability in the Maelstrom ones. What good is sitting on your home objective if you don't roll it in Maelstrom, and how are you getting them into the far objectives or your opponent's deployment zones? That, more than anything, is why many veteran gamers have shifted away from a tervigon-centric Tyranid build to a more ripper-based Tyranid build. Rippers with their ability to deepstrike give you more of an advantage in Maelstrom-based missions.

That is true, but even in Eternal war missions, the Tervigon isn't really survivable enough to anchor midfield, and so he ended up camping on backfield objectives an awful lot with a squad of spawned gants nearby. A single zoey with 10 gants does exactly the same thing for a fraction of the price.

Also the rule change where the spawned gants are not objective secured is a big nerf to the tervigon.

I have generally found that Ob Sec is highly over rated in 7th. It allows you to steal maybe a single objective from your opponent, or vice versa. It seems like eliminating most of your opponent's units so that they just have 1 or 2 that are in position to claim objectives works much better than relying on Tyranid troops for their Ob Sec. I think the rhetoric of "Ob Sec is more important in 7th" made sense on paper, but we don't often see it playing out in games. Or at least I don't often see it playing out in games.

tag8833 wrote:
That is true, but even in Eternal war missions, the Tervigon isn't really survivable enough to anchor midfield, and so he ended up camping on backfield objectives an awful lot with a squad of spawned gants nearby. A single zoey with 10 gants does exactly the same thing for a fraction of the price.

Also the rule change where the spawned gants are not objective secured is a big nerf to the tervigon.

I have generally found that Ob Sec is highly over rated in 7th. It allows you to steal maybe a single objective from your opponent, or vice versa. It seems like eliminating most of your opponent's units so that they just have 1 or 2 that are in position to claim objectives works much better than relying on Tyranid troops for their Ob Sec. I think the rhetoric of "Ob Sec is more important in 7th" made sense on paper, but we don't often see it playing out in games. Or at least I don't often see it playing out in games.

Tervigon can survive midfield as long as you throw enough threats at the opponent. And those threats have to be fast in order for your opponent to prioritize his targeting onto them. If you throw another slow threat at your opponent (i.e. another footslogging tyranid), then your opponent has the luxury of shooting down your tervigon before going after the other bugs. BTW, I used to run both a zoan and the tervigon. Zoan would provide backfield synapse (while mostly hiding) whereas the tervigon would normally advance with the army to provide midfield support.

ObSec isn't over-rated. It is extremely powerful....but only if you have the tools to take advantage of it. And when I say tools, I mean mostly mobility and quantity of ObSec units. Mechdar and the marine armies can take the best advantage of it due to the large number of mobile ObSec units. Tyranids? Not so much due to the rather limited mobility of their ObSec units and the fact that most Tyranid builds nowadays focus on Nidzilla and a MTO play-style, which tend to minimize on the troop selections. So in a sense, you are correct. ObSec isn't as important to us as it is to some other armies. That is because we don't do ObSec as well as some of the other armies and are actually more efficient with ObSec-lite builds.

BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
That is true, but even in Eternal war missions, the Tervigon isn't really survivable enough to anchor midfield, and so he ended up camping on backfield objectives an awful lot with a squad of spawned gants nearby. A single zoey with 10 gants does exactly the same thing for a fraction of the price.

Also the rule change where the spawned gants are not objective secured is a big nerf to the tervigon.

I have generally found that Ob Sec is highly over rated in 7th. It allows you to steal maybe a single objective from your opponent, or vice versa. It seems like eliminating most of your opponent's units so that they just have 1 or 2 that are in position to claim objectives works much better than relying on Tyranid troops for their Ob Sec. I think the rhetoric of "Ob Sec is more important in 7th" made sense on paper, but we don't often see it playing out in games. Or at least I don't often see it playing out in games.

Tervigon can survive midfield as long as you throw enough threats at the opponent. And those threats have to be fast in order for your opponent to prioritize his targeting onto them. If you throw another slow threat at your opponent (i.e. another footslogging tyranid), then your opponent has the luxury of shooting down your tervigon before going after the other bugs. BTW, I used to run both a zoan and the tervigon. Zoan would provide backfield synapse (while mostly hiding) whereas the tervigon would normally advance with the army to provide midfield support.

ObSec isn't over-rated. It is extremely powerful....but only if you have the tools to take advantage of it. And when I say tools, I mean mostly mobility and quantity of ObSec units. Mechdar and the marine armies can take the best advantage of it due to the large number of mobile ObSec units. Tyranids? Not so much due to the rather limited mobility of their ObSec units and the fact that most Tyranid builds nowadays focus on Nidzilla and a MTO play-style, which tend to minimize on the troop selections. So in a sense, you are correct. ObSec isn't as important to us as it is to some other armies. That is because we don't do ObSec as well as some of the other armies and are actually more efficient with ObSec-lite builds.

BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.

Yeah, I interpreted the claim as "I love to argue!" Seems to me the rules say the spawned Termagants are exactly like the one in it's detachment...I'd have to look, but I don't much like to argue. Glad to hear at least some folks agree with me on this point.

 jy2 wrote:
ObSec isn't over-rated. It is extremely powerful....but only if you have the tools to take advantage of it. And when I say tools, I mean mostly mobility and quantity of ObSec units. Mechdar and the marine armies can take the best advantage of it due to the large number of mobile ObSec units. Tyranids? Not so much due to the rather limited mobility of their ObSec units and the fact that most Tyranid builds nowadays focus on Nidzilla and a MTO play-style, which tend to minimize on the troop selections. So in a sense, you are correct. ObSec isn't as important to us as it is to some other armies. That is because we don't do ObSec as well as some of the other armies and are actually more efficient with ObSec-lite builds.

A good point. I saw a player with 6 Ob sec drop pods containing 10 Combat squaded marines. He brought the in right on the Maelstrom objectives, and was utterly unbeatable for the list playing against him. I also fear Mechdar, but haven't really seen a player use it that well yet. Every time I see multiple serpents they want to gunline them.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.

From the BAO FAQ:
"Units generated during the game that were not purchased as part of a player’s army list (e.g. Tyranid Tervigons spawning Termagaunts or the Chaos Daemons Portaglyph summoning daemons) are considered part of the owning player’s army, but not any specific Detachment. This means they do not benefit from any Command Benefits of any of the Detachments included in the army (including Objective Secured)."

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.

From the BAO FAQ:
"Units generated during the game that were not purchased as part of a player’s army list (e.g. Tyranid Tervigons spawning Termagaunts or the Chaos Daemons Portaglyph summoning daemons) are considered part of the owning player’s army, but not any specific Detachment. This means they do not benefit from any Command Benefits of any of the Detachments included in the army (including Objective Secured)."

Ok, well then....I take it back.

To me, that seems sort of silly. Why wouldn't spawned troops be OS? It's not like Tyranids are itching to flood the board with tevigons and gants any more than daemons really need to summon and portaglyph 200 models into play? Makes for a boring game if you ask me, and by ruling in the opposite direction, it really makes it tough to want to run Tervigons. If the gribblies aren't OS, then that's a big hit to the nads.

So I dropped out of here for a while and the Malanthrope became good apparently? can someone point me to where the rough idea on the rules are? as in a way to use him and why is he so good breakdown?

bodazoka wrote:
So I dropped out of here for a while and the Malanthrope became good apparently? can someone point me to where the rough idea on the rules are? as in a way to use him and why is he so good breakdown?

Summary - Venomthropes are good. We all agree on that. As a Force Multiplier they are wonderful with that bubble of cover.

However, Venomthropes have some problems - they have IB. They only have a 5+ armour save normally. And at T4 they can be instakilled by the most common of templates, the Battle Cannon. This makes us sad.

Then Forge World gave us the Malanthrope. Now, without even going into Malanthrope specific rules it's amazing.

It's slightly cheaper than 2 Venomthropes (!)
It's T5, S5, 4 wounds and a 3+ save(!)
It has Regeneration (!)
In addition to the Venomthrope's ability to grant cover in a bubble and its poison!

But wait, there's more.

It has Synapse and Shadow in the Warp!

This alone is incredible. Its specific rules are only icing on the cake.

Maelstrom is the main (only) reason as to why so many Tyranid players are going with Rippers as their troop units of choice. As mentioned, the ability to deepstrike onto forward objectives without need of synapse babysitting, is STRONK! I run 4x3 Rippers in my 2k lists, and they always deliver. Maelstrom (with slight adjustments) are becoming the go-to way to play in both tournaments and casual games in my area.

I prefer Gargoyles for screening duties, but sometime I include a cheap Termagant screen instead, as a complement to the Rippers.

 N.I.B. wrote:
Maelstrom is the main (only) reason as to why so many Tyranid players are going with Rippers as their troop units of choice. As mentioned, the ability to deepstrike onto forward objectives without need of synapse babysitting, is STRONK! I run 4x3 Rippers in my 2k lists, and they always deliver. Maelstrom (with slight adjustments) are becoming the go-to way to play in both tournaments and casual games in my area.

I prefer Gargoyles for screening duties, but sometime I include a cheap Termagant screen instead, as a complement to the Rippers.

I don't think you are correct. Maelstrom is not great for rippers because they have about 50% chance to net you 1 point and then die. Eternal war is much better. They net you more points, and you can hide them out of LOS and then jump out on the last turn. I think it is the fact that I play Maelstrom almost exclusively that has me convinced that rippers are a bad choice. People that play Eternal war or modified eternal war (Like BAO scenarios) find rippers to be not terrible.

Hormagants are the troop of choice for Maelstrom, hands down.

I agree with you on Rippers, but why Horms over Terms & Rips? Not doubting you, just hoping to learn