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pinecone77 wrote:
I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...

I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.

Somebody please explain it to me.

tag8833 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...

I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.

Somebody please explain it to me.

+1. Do, or do not. There is no try.

Devourers on the skytyrant can help in several cases:

1. It can help whittle down 2+ save units. Normally, this unit may have problems against 2+ units.

2. It can help you to crack a transport so that you gargoyles have something to assault. The worst situation is if you assault a transport, get bunched up, and then eat some flamers afterwards.

3. It gives you something to do against flyers other than to just look menacingly at them.

4. It can help you to thin out huge blobs of gribblies. Electroshock grubs, devourers and gargoyle fleshborers can help to make units like the green tide, zombie hordes, 30-termagant/Tyranid gribblies, large gargoyle blocks and AM blob squads a little more manageable.

5. You can use it to shoot walkers in the butt (assuming you can position your flyrant there), because you really don't want to be assaulting walkers.

6. Most importantly, it gives your flyrant flexibility. You don't have to shoot with it if you don't want. You can always run. But without guns, then you can only run. You can't deal with as wide a range of threats because you just don't have the flexibility to do so.


Personally, I'd rather give up the +1A to have a little more flexibility for the unit.

Been running 4 flyrants with double pod dakka fex and 3 lictors.

I must admit I absolutely love Lictors for maelstorm games, to do all my back and midfield scoring while allowing my dakka beasts to focus on the frontlines.

so I finally gotten back into my ''nids, and finished re-re-painting my tyrant guard. anyone have any advice for using them? I was thinking of having them charge down the center (without the tyrant) of the board as a distraction.

Deshkar wrote:
Been running 4 flyrants with double pod dakka fex and 3 lictors.

I must admit I absolutely love Lictors for maelstorm games, to do all my back and midfield scoring while allowing my dakka beasts to focus on the frontlines.

Yeah I love my Rippers for that reason. I would run Lictors but I utterly despise Finecast :/

 jy2 wrote:
Devourers on the skytyrant can help in several cases:

1. It can help whittle down 2+ save units. Normally, this unit may have problems against 2+ units.

Not as much as an extra CC Attack.

 jy2 wrote:
2. It can help you to crack a transport so that you gargoyles have something to assault. The worst situation is if you assault a transport, get bunched up, and then eat some flamers afterwards.

I guess. One Devourer from a unit that is almost always going to be shooting at front armor doesn't seem worth it.

 jy2 wrote:
3. It gives you something to do against flyers other than to just look menacingly at them.

Snap shooting one devourer at them? Once again, it isn't going to do much.

 jy2 wrote:
4. It can help you to thin out huge blobs of gribblies. Electroshock grubs, devourers and gargoyle fleshborers can help to make units like the green tide, zombie hordes, 30-termagant/Tyranid gribblies, large gargoyle blocks and AM blob squads a little more manageable.

E. Grubs are a no-brainer becauses of #5, but one Devourer doesn't seem like it will make much difference.

 jy2 wrote:
5. You can use it to shoot walkers in the butt (assuming you can position your flyrant there), because you really don't want to be assaulting walkers.

You won't get to back armor on walkers. Assaulting walkers with the blob isn't that big of a problem, unless they are super heavies. E.Grubs can take 1 Hull point, and then a Tyrant will be doing 1 or 2 a turn. Meanwhile the walkers will kill a Gargoyle or two. The only walkers you should be afraid assaulting are characters like Bjorn, or Super Heavies.

 jy2 wrote:
6. Most importantly, it gives your flyrant flexibility. You don't have to shoot with it if you don't want. You can always run. But without guns, then you can only run. You can't deal with as wide a range of threats because you just don't have the flexibility to do so.

Personally, I'd rather give up the +1A to have a little more flexibility for the unit.

The problem is that it makes it much scarier assaulting close combat characters, because you are less reliable against Great Unclean Ones, Demon Princes, Wraith Knights, even Marine Chapter Masters. 1 attack increases you chance of getting that critical ID results when you need it by 20%. That one extra attack is also the difference between statistically Killing a Wave Serpent a turn in assault, and failing to do so. 2.4 Hull points vs 2.8.

If you feel like a Close Combat Tyrant isn't expensive enough, you could always give it Old Adversary.

Running my Summoning Star with Allied Nids today against Nids.
We will likely play a combined Eternal War and Maelstrom style mission.

Should be an interesting game, not sure what his list is going to look like yet but here's mine:

HQ
Fateweaver

Herald of Tzeentch, Mastery lvl 3, Exalted Reward, Disc
Herald of Tzeentch, Mastery lvl 3, Disc
Herald of Tzeentch, Mastery lvl 3, Disc

Troops
13 Horrors
12 Horrors

Fast
8 Screamers

Fortification
Aegis

Allies
Flyrant, Dual Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
Mucolid Spore
Hive Crone
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannofex, Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs, Toxin Sacs

1845

Noctem wrote:

badula wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

badula wrote:
i've noticed that FW doesn't sell shrikes' wings anymore.... anyone has some info about it?

It was mentioned in the FW releases thread I believe- they don't fit the new warrior kit. They pulled them until they can work out a solution.

seems i've missed that!

good news btw!^^

i DO hope for a plastic upgrade kit!

Oh weird! I ordered the shrike wings from Forgeworld after the new Warrior kit came out and they fit perfectly fine. Not sure why they'd remove them. Maybe re-doing?

jimmyp at the Hive spoke with someone at Forgeworld about the wings and had this to say:



Dec 4, 2014 16:49:19 GMT -6 jimmyp said:
Well I was at warhammer fest in uk and a guy at forgeworld who was the designer of the 30k imperial fists asked what I collected, I said tyranids and was interested in what is popular in my opinion. I said it's annoying that shrike wings are not about and was frustrating. He said that he knows that gw and FW are working on dedicated shrikes models instead of just add on wings to the plastic. They are busy on sculptures of 30k but next year 2015 they will do them because demand is high and the previous ones were bad fit etc.
not sure if correct or not but he seemed genuine


http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/828282/thread

Just got my Deathstorm box in, took a quick scan of the units therein. Here's the nids:

Holy cow, yet more formations and dataslates.
They seem not that great on their own but the formation combining all of the dataslates is pretty nice considering the Stealers and Cryptus gets shrouded.

Stealth and Shrouded even. 2+ cover save even in area terrain.

saved them before the mods could get it. bingo.
ahem, ahem. wow, that does look cool, it's unfortunate that we're not allowed to upload full things like that. saving them? what, no of coarse not. *shifty glance*

 Redemption wrote:
Stealth and Shrouded even. 2+ cover save even in area terrain.

Yeah, but what a tax! A Carnifex with STC and Bio Plasma + 15 points for IWND. 3 Warriors Clocking in at 170 points because of fixed wargear. All of the Genestealers have Scything Talons + that squad has an 11 point added cost to get stealth (well worth it, this one).

On the other hand. It actually isn't a bad "Starter" set for a potential tyranid player. It would be playable against a marine player with an equivalent set. Add a Venomthrope, some screening gargoyles and you've got yourself an army that would perform ok at low point levels.

Would never take the warriors like that, nor the Fex.. its so sad, so much potential wasted (IMO).

 Asmodas wrote:

Noctem wrote:

badula wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

badula wrote:
i've noticed that FW doesn't sell shrikes' wings anymore.... anyone has some info about it?

It was mentioned in the FW releases thread I believe- they don't fit the new warrior kit. They pulled them until they can work out a solution.

seems i've missed that!

good news btw!^^

i DO hope for a plastic upgrade kit!

Oh weird! I ordered the shrike wings from Forgeworld after the new Warrior kit came out and they fit perfectly fine. Not sure why they'd remove them. Maybe re-doing?

jimmyp at the Hive spoke with someone at Forgeworld about the wings and had this to say:



Dec 4, 2014 16:49:19 GMT -6 jimmyp said:
Well I was at warhammer fest in uk and a guy at forgeworld who was the designer of the 30k imperial fists asked what I collected, I said tyranids and was interested in what is popular in my opinion. I said it's annoying that shrike wings are not about and was frustrating. He said that he knows that gw and FW are working on dedicated shrikes models instead of just add on wings to the plastic. They are busy on sculptures of 30k but next year 2015 they will do them because demand is high and the previous ones were bad fit etc.
not sure if correct or not but he seemed genuine


http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/828282/thread

This is what I was referring to from the FW thread-

 Ratius wrote:
For anyone thats interested I called FW today about these guys status being out of stock since I wanted some for my old 2nd ed Tyrants.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID_SHRIKE_BROOD_CONVERSION_KIT.html

The rep informed me that they no longer fit the current Shrike models and have been withdrawn with no stock in the warehouses etc.
He said they would need a complete reworking of the master mould and most likely wouldnt be back in stock until the summer.

I guess one could infer that GW wont be releasing official Shrike models then?

Quite a refreshing conversation tbh, he was straight down the middle and seemed quite well informed.[/quote

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Would never take the warriors like that, nor the Fex.. its so sad, so much potential wasted (IMO).

Have you never played Stranglefexes?
I have 4 Strangler/Devourer Fexes...and what they really allow me to do is punish armies like Tau before I even enter the range of the bulk of their army.

At Adepticon Our Tyranid armies completely tabled two Taudar armies with these buddies...They did some work!

Another anecdote...they also gave us the massacre in our first game on a white scars army by piling wounds on them.

tag8833 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...

I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.

Somebody please explain it to me.

It's not so much helping the CC, it's giving more options. Like say scrubbing off bubblewrap, to get to the juicy center. Or shooting down a enemy flier...etc...It's not the end of the world to lose it. But it is a loss (of flexability)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redemption wrote:
Just got my Deathstorm box in, took a quick scan of the units therein. Here's the nids:

Wow, very nice! This just might let Stealers return to regular play.

It's ok. I just wish that such a huge broodlord would have better stats than a regular one.

Makes me want to take Genestealers even less : /

Yeah, nothing groundbreaking here. But then again this is a campaign box intended for new starters!

Played my Summoning star with allied Nids.
Allied Nids are so awesome, even when they are Apoc.
What I took had such a small footprint it was never issue even after summoning 600 points onto the board.
This combined with a Screamerstar was nice because I have decent movement and can summon literally all over the table unless the star is pinned down.

Taking allied Apoc Nids is very viable I feel. With a Flyrant and a Hive crone you have anti air covered plus a real shooting threat which is hard to get with Daemons.
The Crone + Flyrant is pretty much an expensive Daemon Prince.

I played against the Skytyrant and didn't really think much of it. I ate most of the Gargoyles with Daemonettes and the combat just got drawn out over multiple turns. I don't see the value in Skytyrant currently, its too easy for a lot of armies to strip away the ablative wounds. Perhaps not with 60 Gargoyles but that's getting a little expensive.

Ah, come on... 215 for 8 Scything Stealers, and a Broodlord that gives PE, And Stealth? I think that is pretty cool... And for around 550 you can take a big Formation, that gets PE for all, and grants stealth, if you have stealth, you get Shrouding. 550 is on the high side, but that is LAN + Dakkafex...a totally affordable thing...

If I read that right, that means the Spawns Brood are their own Veno, and they move through cover, etc....The Beast looks "OK", call me old fashioned, but I'd be happier with Twin Scything. Just looking, off the top of my head IWND looks like its very low costed....120+ Bio-plasma=140+ Strangler...160? That means IWND costs 10 points...That is a bargain.

The Warriors look like classic GW overkitted point sinks... Twin Glands? So gauche....

pinecone77 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...

I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.

Somebody please explain it to me.

It's not so much helping the CC, it's giving more options. Like say scrubbing off bubblewrap, to get to the juicy center. Or shooting down a enemy flier...etc...It's not the end of the world to lose it. But it is a loss (of flexability)

If I take my Computer mouse and attack a butter knife to it, it will give me more options. When its time to spread some butter, I'm going to regret that decision.

When you say scrubbing off bubblewrap, what that means to me when talking about an assault based unit without fleet is taking yourself out of charge range. When you say shooting down an enemy flier, I'm even more confused. 6 TL shots without skyfire are not going to be threatening to the only fliers popular in the current meta (Night Scythes, Storm Ravens, Space Wolf fliers). Meanwhile you are removing an attack and adding 15 points for a gun that will fire perhaps once a game on a unit that is guaranteed to be the highest target priority of any enemy, that already starts out at sever major disadvantages compared to other assaulty deathstars (no fleet, No hit and run, no 2nd character to each challenges).

[Tangent]
I started running the numbers for Tyrants VS Knights in close combat. I was assuming Reaper of Obliterax (RoO). I thought Rending Claws (RC) gave you a bonus VS Knights, but they really, don't. But Old Adversary (OA) is a significant bonus. Bonus = Explodes bonus.
Tyrant Atts Hits Glances Bonus Total Smash 1 0.67 0.50 0.33 0.83 Smash, OA 1 0.78 0.58 0.39 0.97 RoO, Dev 4 2.67 0.44 0.00 0.44 RoO,Dev,OA 4 3.11 0.52 0.00 0.52 RoO, RC 5 3.33 0.56 0.12 0.68 RoO, RC, OA 5 3.89 0.65 0.14 0.79

So, you should always smash against Imperial Knights, unless it has exactly 1 Hull point left. And Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective against Imperial Knights. I'm going to run the number of using Old Adversary instead of Shred (RoO) when facing Wraith Knights.

tag8833 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
Stealth and Shrouded even. 2+ cover save even in area terrain.

Yeah, but what a tax! A Carnifex with STC and Bio Plasma + 15 points for IWND. 3 Warriors Clocking in at 170 points because of fixed wargear. All of the Genestealers have Scything Talons + that squad has an 11 point added cost to get stealth (well worth it, this one).

And for a unit that should already have shrouded most the time that it's relevant from a much less significant tax (Mope/Vope) this formation is just back to GW's poor writing. These formations are Skyblight-level restrictive combined with Malaceptor-level weak, they are just trying to push new models out the door. Had they not been so needlessly restrictive and decided they needed to pick absolutely every article of wargear for us, it might have just worked. Otherwise I guess I don't have to worry about being enticed into buying this trash at least until the time they make Carnifex w/Stranglethorn+Bioplasma an actual playable and worthwhile choice. This release is absolutely phoned in. Shame on you GW, you were doing so well.

 ductvader wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Would never take the warriors like that, nor the Fex.. its so sad, so much potential wasted (IMO).

Have you never played Stranglefexes?
I have 4 Strangler/Devourer Fexes...and what they really allow me to do is punish armies like Tau before I even enter the range of the bulk of their army.

At Adepticon Our Tyranid armies completely tabled two Taudar armies with these buddies...They did some work!

Another anecdote...they also gave us the massacre in our first game on a white scars army by piling wounds on them.

I have, Ive done many types of Fexs and they never suited be (might be my synergy with my lists) but I hate Strangle on fex's (Same for Venom cannons).

I like Dakka or Melee sometimes Bio-plasma.

Here is some math on a Melee Tyrant VS. a Wraith Knight.

On the Charge with 2 CCWs
Atts Hits Wou ID's Fail BSLW 6 4.00 0.67 0.67 49% BSLW, OA 6 5.33 1.04 1.04 32% BSLW,AG,OA 6 5.33 2.07 1.04 32% RoO 6 4.00 0.67 1.11 29% RoO, OA 6 5.33 2.96 1.48 18%

If the Wraith Knight charges you and you have 2 CCWs, or charging with 1 CCW.
Atts Hits Wou ID's Fail BSLW 5 3.33 0.56 0.56 55% BSLW, OA 5 4.44 0.86 0.86 39% BSLW,AG,OA 5 4.44 1.73 0.86 39% RoO 5 3.33 0.56 0.93 36% RoO, OA 5 4.44 2.47 1.23 24%

Conclusion: Because Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective VS Imperial Knights and other AV 13 Walkers, and dropping RoO for BW+LW and Old Adversary only drops you effectiveness against High Toughness MC's by 6.67%, I think I'm going to start running my Melee Tyrants with BS + LW, STs, E.Grubs, and Old Adversary. Toxin Sac's aren't important if you have preferred enemy because you are IDing high toughness while wound on 2's most lower toughness.

Question: Does the +1 Strength from RoO make you more effective against AV12 walkers?
Answer: Yes, substantially. You are roughly 20.54% better off against AV12 walkers with +1 Strength against AV12 Walkers. With my Melee Tyrant Build, I'm still going to want to Smash most of the time. Hopefully the E.Grubs soften them up a bit. You are roughly 20% better against AV11 vehicles as well, but the advantage drops to about 3% against AV 10 vehicles.

Question: What is the statistical chance of failing to ID an Imperial Knight?
Answer: I've added a fail column with the percentage. You are 7.24% more likely to fail to ID a Wraith Knight in 1 Round of Combat with my wargear than with RoO. It is significant, but not enough to dissuade me.

Played against a Daemon summoning list tonight that had a dog star with Khorne herald plus three ML3 Nurgle princes (completely unbound, as he didn't bring enough troops to make it double CAD).

It was only a 1500 so I went obsec light and brought my Barbed Hierodule to see what it could do. Knew it would have only a few chances to get through 2+ cover before it would be assaulted and likely killed/tarpitted.

What I did not see coming was instant death-ing his warlord with only 3 hits through 2+ cover, then watching his second prince fail 3 out of five 2+ saves. That prince would then perils while attempting to cast a power on his first turn and die. We called the game after my second turn where the Barbed Hierodule instagibbed his last full wound prince, even though it scored only 3 hits since the prince had taken to the skies in an attempt to increase his survivability. 2+ just isn't what it's cracked up to be

Overall, more of an exercise in how much daemon princes hate strength 10 than anything else

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Played my Summoning star with allied Nids.
Allied Nids are so awesome, even when they are Apoc.
What I took had such a small footprint it was never issue even after summoning 600 points onto the board.
This combined with a Screamerstar was nice because I have decent movement and can summon literally all over the table unless the star is pinned down.

Taking allied Apoc Nids is very viable I feel. With a Flyrant and a Hive crone you have anti air covered plus a real shooting threat which is hard to get with Daemons.
The Crone + Flyrant is pretty much an expensive Daemon Prince.

I played against the Skytyrant and didn't really think much of it. I ate most of the Gargoyles with Daemonettes and the combat just got drawn out over multiple turns. I don't see the value in Skytyrant currently, its too easy for a lot of armies to strip away the ablative wounds. Perhaps not with 60 Gargoyles but that's getting a little expensive.

Cool to hear. I was actually hammering out a similar list last night, and will hopefully get to test it tomorrow. Might finally write a battle report like I've been meaning to do forever. Here's the list for shoots and googles:

Leviathan:
Flyrant: 2x Devs, EGrubs
Flyrant: 2x Devs, EGrubs

Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid

Venomthrope

Daemons CAD:
GUO: 2x Greater
Tz'erald: ML3, Disc, Exalted
Tz'erald: ML3, Disc

3x Nurglings
12x Pink Horrors

8x Screamers

Daemon Prince: Nurgle, Wings, Armor, ML3, 2x Greater, Lesser

Still torn on whether or not to do basically the same thing except with LoC and Tzeentch Prince, but I like the 2+ jink, ID, and the high T of the GUO

tag8833 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...

I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.

Somebody please explain it to me.

It's not so much helping the CC, it's giving more options. Like say scrubbing off bubblewrap, to get to the juicy center. Or shooting down a enemy flier...etc...It's not the end of the world to lose it. But it is a loss (of flexability)

If I take my Computer mouse and attack a butter knife to it, it will give me more options. When its time to spread some butter, I'm going to regret that decision.

When you say scrubbing off bubblewrap, what that means to me when talking about an assault based unit without fleet is taking yourself out of charge range. When you say shooting down an enemy flier, I'm even more confused. 6 TL shots without skyfire are not going to be threatening to the only fliers popular in the current meta (Night Scythes, Storm Ravens, Space Wolf fliers). Meanwhile you are removing an attack and adding 15 points for a gun that will fire perhaps once a game on a unit that is guaranteed to be the highest target priority of any enemy, that already starts out at sever major disadvantages compared to other assaulty deathstars (no fleet, No hit and run, no 2nd character to each challenges).

[Tangent]
I started running the numbers for Tyrants VS Knights in close combat. I was assuming Reaper of Obliterax (RoO). I thought Rending Claws (RC) gave you a bonus VS Knights, but they really, don't. But Old Adversary (OA) is a significant bonus. Bonus = Explodes bonus.
Tyrant Atts Hits Glances Bonus Total Smash 1 0.67 0.50 0.33 0.83 Smash, OA 1 0.78 0.58 0.39 0.97 RoO, Dev 4 2.67 0.44 0.00 0.44 RoO,Dev,OA 4 3.11 0.52 0.00 0.52 RoO, RC 5 3.33 0.56 0.12 0.68 RoO, RC, OA 5 3.89 0.65 0.14 0.79

So, you should always smash against Imperial Knights, unless it has exactly 1 Hull point left. And Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective against Imperial Knights. I'm going to run the number of using Old Adversary instead of Shred (RoO) when facing Wraith Knights.

I guess I can see what you're saying. But I think you're overstating it. This is the internet, so "current meta" varies wildly based on where somebody is. I can see why you consider 6 shots on a flier pointless, but a small chance might be better than no chance. And it usually Is a mistake to shoot your self out of charge range, but if there is a squishy target, with a "Ista-killy special" standing near, I'd prefer to shoot it. And if I do want to go tangle with a bad mutha, well I don't want to stop and chat with some Nuglings first, I want them to clear a path. I sure don't see taking a second CC as a mistake. But I don't see keeping one's options open, as being a mistake.

The numbers do look pretty poor for charging a Knight. I'm guessing the preferred solution is Vetor Strike, Thorax Hive How do the numbers look with HOW added? (Or are they already added in?) I don't expect it adds much, but I thought Rending Claws would be a bigger help than it is...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:
Here is some math on a Melee Tyrant VS. a Wraith Knight.

On the Charge with 2 CCWs
Atts Hits Wou ID's Fail BSLW 6 4.00 0.67 0.67 49% BSLW, OA 6 5.33 1.04 1.04 32% BSLW,AG,OA 6 5.33 2.07 1.04 32% RoO 6 4.00 0.67 1.11 29% RoO, OA 6 5.33 2.96 1.48 18%

If the Wraith Knight charges you and you have 2 CCWs, or charging with 1 CCW.
Atts Hits Wou ID's Fail BSLW 5 3.33 0.56 0.56 55% BSLW, OA 5 4.44 0.86 0.86 39% BSLW,AG,OA 5 4.44 1.73 0.86 39% RoO 5 3.33 0.56 0.93 36% RoO, OA 5 4.44 2.47 1.23 24%

Conclusion: Because Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective VS Imperial Knights and other AV 13 Walkers, and dropping RoO for BW+LW and Old Adversary only drops you effectiveness against High Toughness MC's by 6.67%, I think I'm going to start running my Melee Tyrants with BS + LW, STs, E.Grubs, and Old Adversary. Toxin Sac's aren't important if you have preferred enemy because you are IDing high toughness while wound on 2's most lower toughness.

Question: Does the +1 Strength from RoO make you more effective against AV12 walkers?
Answer: Yes, substantially. You are roughly 20.54% better off against AV12 walkers with +1 Strength against AV12 Walkers. With my Melee Tyrant Build, I'm still going to want to Smash most of the time. Hopefully the E.Grubs soften them up a bit. You are roughly 20% better against AV11 vehicles as well, but the advantage drops to about 3% against AV 10 vehicles.

Question: What is the statistical chance of failing to ID an Imperial Knight?
Answer: I've added a fail column with the percentage. You are 7.24% more likely to fail to ID a Wraith Knight in 1 Round of Combat with my wargear than with RoO. It is significant, but not enough to dissuade me.

Very nice! Yeah, back when I was running Winged Assassin as a "go to" build, I used LW/BS, Toxic (and Electro-bugs, natch ), because it was cheaper. So I don't have much experience with Reaper. With the nurf to Toxic, and the need to handle AV, it does look like OA is a good way to go.

I'd guess that Toxic still provides value vs Chapter Masters and the like, but I think that Tarpitting is the better way to handle those bums. Besides we were talking SkyTyrant, and that has swarms of Gargoyles attached.