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2014/12/08 17:24:58
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Im going to by a Flyrant and Convert to a Malanthrope soon. (I like them better than venoms)
My bad. I didn't see them at first. Why did you let the skytyrant get out of range of them?
I had it set up for sky tyrant, but the way he deployed, (His whole army in 1 corner and Centurions/cannon in other) I felt Goyles would do better as a screen for the tyrant to kill those 2 units ASAP. It was a decisions that I took and Im glad I did.
But I can understand the thinking in "You moved goyles out of 3+ Cover whaaa!)
Im going to by a Flyrant and Convert to a Malanthrope soon. (I like them better than venoms)
My bad. I didn't see them at first. Why did you let the skytyrant get out of range of them?
I had it set up for sky tyrant, but the way he deployed, (His whole army in 1 corner and Centurions/cannon in other) I felt Goyles would do better as a screen for the tyrant to kill those 2 units ASAP. It was a decisions that I took and Im glad I did.
But I can understand the thinking in "You moved goyles out of 3+ Cover whaaa!)
So you ran the venoms in a single squad? Why? To Deny 1st blood?
2014/12/08 18:10:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Been putting together my copy of the Deathstorm box and found something rather interesting. The Carnifex isn't re-mounted on the flyer oval base, but rather has an altogether new one! Looks like it has a good half-inch smaller radius than the regular oval base, kinda like they took the 60mm and spread it out a bit.
I'll get pictures as soon as possible.
2014/12/08 18:20:09
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Well you could build it as a Toxecrene, it's not super hot, but it is not "bad". Same body, just with more tenticuls. You can toss it in a Pod, or run HyoerToxic Node. The juries still out, but it looks like it might be 'playable".
(Three Veno Broods, Toxi, and a Tyrant...special rules make poison more poisonous (varies) I kinda like it...if my finances get more stable, I plan to paint a Toxi up, and give it a play or two.
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/12/08 20:09:31
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
As there seems to be some interest (ok, ok, only 1 person interested) in the maleceptor, I've decided to do a review on it.
Maleceptor: (by jy2)
While I like the concept of the maleceptor, the execution of its design is rather flawed. Basically, the maleceptor is a psychic Tyranid unit who provides psychic firepower as well as Synapse support. Now before I get into why he is flawed, I'd like to discuss why you may want to consider him in your army and how you could use him.
1. He is a support unit that provides Synapse and Shadows coverage for the army. He contributes to the warp dice pool.
2. His main offense, the Psychic Overload psychic power, is one of the very few weapons in the Tyranid arsenal that ignores cover. It is also a focussed witchfire, meaning he has the chance to snipe out particular models in a unit.
3. Psychic Overload actually makes for a nice combo with Shadows in the Warp against enemy psykers, especially solitary units like monstrous creatures or the very annoying Eldar farseer with the Mantle.
4. He is still a monstrous creature, which makes him a threat to enemy infantry and tanks.
5. Psychic Overload isn't his only power. He also gets Dominion and another randomly generated power.
6. He has an Invulnerable save, which makes him just slightly more survivable in close combat, but only to units with power weapons and such.
7. Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase, he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting". - tag8833
Despite his force-multiplier capabilities, what makes him so flawed?
1. Be design, he sucks up more warp dice than he generates. He's like a psychic vacuum, only he kills your own warp pool instead of your opponents. He can cast Psychic Overload up to 3 times against different opponents. Problem is, Psychic Overload is a WC2 power. To even cast it semi-reliably, you're going to have to use 4 dice. If you want to cast it 3 times, you're going to expend about 12 dice. Well, the maleceptor only contributes 2 dice to the warp pool so in essence, you will be taking valuable dice away from the other psychic units in the army to cast his powers. The maleceptor is a rare unit indeed. Instead of being a force-multiplier, or a unit that helps the army overall, he is actually a force-divider.
2. Psychic powers just aren't reliable enough. Using 4 dice gives him a 75% chance at success only and then the opponent gets a chance to deny. Now normal targets will have a hard time, but against a psychic target, they are denying on a 5+. And against a psychic unit with a Lvl 3 psyker in it, he is going to be very easily able to deny on a 4+. And then they would have to fail a LD test, even if it is on 3D6. A LD10 target will fail his test only about half of the times.
3. Poor Ballistic Skill. On top of the unreliability that are psychic powers, he still has to hit on 4's due to being BS3 only. Now if psychic shooting was his secondary offense, it wouldn't be so bad. But because his psychic shooting IS his offense, you need something more reliable, which is what he isn't.
4. 4+ save? Are you kidding me? What the heck were the designers thinking? All of the land-based Tyranid MC's have 3+ saves and the toxicrene has Shroud for a potential 2+/3+ cover, but 4+ on a ground MC makes him quite a glass cannon MC. You HAVE to keep him within range of a malan/venomthrope, at least if you want to keep him alive from enemy shooting. In Assault, this guy can be killed by any marine with a krak grenade. There isn't another TMC that is quite as fragile as the maleceptor.
5. He is expensive. For a unit as fragile as he is and whose offense is as unreliable as his, he just isn't worth the points. Even if the maleceptor were to come down by 50-pts, I'd have to think about whether I would use him or not, but at his current cost, he is a no-brainer. Actually, let me shorten that for you. He is a NO. For any of his roles, almost every other unit in the codex can do it more efficiently.
6. Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit. - tag8833
The concept of a brain-bug is cool, but GW really dropped the ball on the unit design. Fortunately for them, you can build the kit as the toxicrene instead, so it's not a total loss. But in terms of the maleceptor, that guy is pure fail with a capital F.
Grades: F
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/08 22:48:30
I agree completely with your review, but there is one plus and one minus worth mentioning.
+ Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting"
- Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit.
- Even if you target an IC or Character, they can still LOS the wounds away (actually possible to kill multiple models this way). So it is best used against single model units or targeting special weapons in a squad.
2014/12/08 20:30:25
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I agree completely with your review, but there is one plus and one minus worth mentioning.
+ Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting"
- Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit.
- Even if you target an IC or Character, they can still LOS the wounds away (actually possible to kill multiple models this way). So it is best used against single model units or targeting special weapons in a squad.
Thanks. Completely agreed. Will add your comments onto my review.
the shrouded lord wrote: well, thanks for that...I think.
btw, unless you couldn't tell, I'm that guy who takes terminator-heavy lists.
in 1000 point games.
Sorry, I couldn't tell.
There's nothing wrong with running sub-optimal units, as long as you don't mind losing more than winning. Now you can still make them work, that is, if you were to complement your army with strong units as well (i.e. dual flyrants, the malanthrope). But you're going to find out the hard way how much tougher it will be to win games with these types of units. But in the end, winning isn't everything. If you love the model and just want to get the chance to use it in game, then by all means, go for it. However, if you want to win games with them as well, then I'd advise you to not run any unit (or unit configuration) in the reviews who doesn't have at the very least a C rating in our reviews.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the shrouded lord wrote: hmm...well thanks for the advice guys, now, what's the best way to use pyrovores?
You can find the review for him on p.1 of our main tactica, but I will post it here as well:
Pyrovore: (by Unyielding Hunger)
Spoiler:
The Pyrovore has long been infamous as quite possibly the worst unit in the codex and the game at large. Happily, that is no longer the case, and it serves as a fairly loose middle road.
1. It has reliable firepower for clearing objectives and hordes.
2. It benefits from the Promethium relay, which can support it in either a defensive or offensive capacity.
The major weakness of the Pyrovore lies in its mobility. Unfortunately, the Pyrovore just happens to be an incredibly slow moving platform with very little in the way for options to get around faster. However, once kitted out with some transportation, they can actually become far more effective. Each of them is armed with a heavy flamer, so going after hordes is generally the most commonly accepted method of use, however they can also get a good bit of mileage out of going after dedicated assault units. Setting a nice juicy unit of Terminators on fire is going to make back a fair portion of its points back, and then the terminators are going to have to consider the following. Do I assault 3 flamers and take 3d3 automatic overwatch hits, or ignore them and get flamed every turn?
The only reliable transport options for Pyrovores are to take Trygon tunnels or hitching a ride inside a pod. Now, taking a pod is cheaper than the Trygon and waiting subsequent turns and gives it more time on the field to earn back points. It also seems to be the much better tactic in that you can hug it and force your opponent into a multi-assault. Eating a nest of devourers plus a group of 3 flamers in overwatch is going to be a bit much for most standard units that these things will be pitted against and it should allow you to either kill or tarpit the unit for several turns. Promethium Relays will give your Pyrovores some range, but these fortifications are stationary and as long as your opponent avoids it, there is very little your Pyrovores can do to help make back points. This would only be recommended in a defensive scenario. When dealing with enemies in entrenched cover, Pyrovores are one of the most cost effective ways to force them out. Things get even better when dealing with a rush of light vehicles that are open topped, capable of damaging the vehicles and dealing d6 wounds to the unit inside. But the best part of all is that the Pyrovore itself is an Elite choice rather than Heavy Support. As it currently stands, the HQ, FA, and HS organizational chart areas are currently among the top areas of interest to Tyranid Players, which means that you won't have to think too hard about devoting a slot to this pyrotechnics display.
Grades: A (Podvores), B+ (Promvores), C (Vanilla)
Grading - An Alternate Perspective: B (Podvores), C+ (Promvores), D (Vanilla) (by jy2)
Reason(s): To me, an 'A' unit is a unit that can and will consistently contribute to the Tyranid cause. While pyrovores in pods (podvores) can be very good for its role of anti-infantry, oftentimes it just won't contribute much. Why?
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.
In short, if you want to run them, it's best to put them in a tyrannocyte spore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/08 21:11:51
indeed my friend. this thread has been interesting and useful, and while i'm not one for the competetive scene (though i do plan on eventually being so) it is good to know more about my army.
so, here's a question:
one monsterous creature. one that's on a large oval base. which is the best? in your opinion/ what ever.
*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here*
2014/12/08 21:23:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
the shrouded lord wrote: maybe I should buy a second mawloc.
or just make my own thread and stop wasting space in this one.
Really its about synergy with your list.
If you have a very mobile list, Goyles, Crones/harpies, Flyrants ect.. and you want some non drop pod MC's then Mawlocs are good. OR if you have trouple with Armor 2 and need AP2 blasts than mawlocs can work for that too.
I have a Love/hate relationship with them, When they hit the right spot they do loads of damage, when they miss they are target practice.
the shrouded lord wrote: indeed my friend. this thread has been interesting and useful, and while i'm not one for the competetive scene (though i do plan on eventually being so) it is good to know more about my army.
so, here's a question:
one monsterous creature. one that's on a large oval base. which is the best? in your opinion/ what ever.
I really don't see why you need to take the large oval base as a criteria for choosing your MC's, but I'll go with it.
My top 4 MC's on oval bases:
1. Mawloc - just a great unit overall due to his cheapness, excellent mobility and reliable AP2 large blast which ignores cover. However, he can be kind of hit-or-miss depending on the situation.
2. Dimachaeron - this guy is Forgeworld so not every place (mostly tournaments) will allow you to use him. He is the meanest CC mofo in the army and a HUGE threat in assault. I've actually had 2 games where the dima by himself killed most of my opponent's army. In 1 game against Space Wolves, he killed 900+ pts of wolves. In another game, he kill almost 1100-pts of daemons. This guy will either go BIG or go home depending on the matchups. He works best if you give him a tyrannocyte spore.
3. Tyrannofex w/acid spray + egrubs. A unit with decent anti-infantry firepower who can absorb a lot of firepower. This guy is a bullet sponge and will soak up a lot of punishment otherwise meant for the rest of the army. Works better with a tyrannocyte spore, but you could also just run him up the table.
4. Tervigon - a decent force multiplier who can be kitted out to be very dangerous against vehicles with crushing claws and egrubs. Put him in a tyrannocyte spore and he is golden. The downside? He either takes up a flyrant slot (not a problem if you only run 1) or you need to buy 30 termagants if you want to run the tervie as a troop. Fortunately, 30 termagants actually isn't a bad unit. It's decent and even good in a lot of matchups.
To add on, I feel like you want a big oval beast as your center piece. If that's correct then steer away from the Mawloc. He will be in reserves for the most of the game.
2014/12/09 00:02:17
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
2014/12/09 00:08:35
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
durecellrabbit wrote: Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
With regards to modeling, can you magnetize the kit to be able to run both?
Personally, I prefer the tervigon over the t-fex mainly because he is force-multiplier unit that can help to make the entire army better. To me, those units are always better than a unit with 1 or 2 roles. Just keep in mind that you would have to give up a slot for a flyrant to take him (the tervigon) or you would have to include 30 termagants in your list.....unless you are running the Shield of Baal Leviathan formation where you can take 3 HQ's.
jy2 wrote: My top 4 MC's on oval bases:
...
4. Tervigon - a decent force multiplier who can be kitted out to be very dangerous against vehicles with crushing claws and egrubs. Put him in a tyrannocyte spore and he is golden. The downside? He either takes up a flyrant slot (not a problem if you only run 1) or you need to buy 30 termagants if you want to run the tervie as a troop. Fortunately, 30 termagants actually isn't a bad unit. It's decent and even good in a lot of matchups.
Tervigon tops Exocrine?
Ever since 7th dropped and nerfed the tar out of the Tervigon, I haven't figured out a way to use one without it feeling like a tax on my army. With the age of the Tyrannocyte, perhaps I should give it another run. I'm thinking a quasi null deployment list with lots of threats on turn 2 might get the Tervigon into Close combat safely.
I can put 2 pretty survivable OS units on objectives, and have lots of Lictors running around harassing whatever threatens the Tervigon. It feels like a list that could hang with Wave serpents fairly well.
My main problem with previous Tervigon lists was that losing the Tervigon generally restricted my ability to win the game. If my opponent has a consequence in the for of lictors, and a guided Mawloc, perhaps it is enough to offset the massive points investment in the Tervigon.
2014/12/09 00:11:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
durecellrabbit wrote: Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
Probably Tervigon as a force multiplier and Synapse beacon for your MC's.
But magnets are a collectors best friend
YMDC = nightmare
2014/12/09 00:20:03
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
durecellrabbit wrote: Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
The Tyrannofex is way cheaper, does way more damage, is way more survivable, and doesn't kill termagants with it dies. It is a flexible unit that can bring something to most lists. Meanwhile the Tervigon has a trivial amount of offense, and its ability to support your army is highly random (Roll Catalyst, Spawn Gants).
Basically, you can put a Tfex in most lists and not regret it, but a Tervigon is difficult to get into lists (Gant Tax, or lose a flyrant), and need quite a bit more help and luck to be productive.
2014/12/09 00:51:16
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jy2 wrote: With regards to modeling, can you magnetize the kit to be able to run both?
Personally, I prefer the tervigon over the t-fex mainly because he is force-multiplier unit that can help to make the entire army better. To me, those units are always better than a unit with 1 or 2 roles. Just keep in mind that you would have to give up a slot for a flyrant to take him (the tervigon) or you would have to include 30 termagants in your list.....unless you are running the Shield of Baal Leviathan formation where you can take 3 HQ's.
I don't feel confident with magnetising for both. I managed to magnetise a Carnifex but broke some parts and had to order replacements. Maybe after some practising on other models I'll be able to with future additions.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
2014/12/09 01:05:54
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Out of curiosity, has anyone tried giving a Tervigon the Miasma Cannon? Seems like a good way to make her atleast slightly useful, and not TOO expensive.
2014/12/09 02:08:00
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
SharkoutofWata wrote: Out of curiosity, has anyone tried giving a Tervigon the Miasma Cannon? Seems like a good way to make her atleast slightly useful, and not TOO expensive.
I have, and I liked it alot with another temple weapon, I was giving my HT Hive Commander and outflanking it.
Outflanking Tervigon with 2 Templates and troop spawning was realy fun. (Never tried against Eldar, against Tau, SM, Chaos and CSM it was fine).
I wouldnt do it in a very competitive list, but for casual game heck yeah!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/09 02:09:20
the shrouded lord wrote: maybe I should buy a second mawloc.
or just make my own thread and stop wasting space in this one.
I'm a big fan of Twin Mawlocs. Just a warning, they are a "love 'em, or don't" kinda unit. They always do great for me, but I have heard a Lot of sad stories over the years.
For Big Bug fav? I really like Tyranofex, Acid, Thorax Hive....
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/12/09 05:44:11
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Strat_N8 wrote: Been putting together my copy of the Deathstorm box and found something rather interesting. The Carnifex isn't re-mounted on the flyer oval base, but rather has an altogether new one! Looks like it has a good half-inch smaller radius than the regular oval base, kinda like they took the 60mm and spread it out a bit.
I'll get pictures as soon as possible.
Here's that picture I promised:
The standard oval base is on the left (my Trygon tunnel marker), the new 'fex base is on the right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/09 05:45:00
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