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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
In what way does having a vast period to fill with background qualify as "too much"?

I gotta say I am in the 'million years is too long' camp myself.

What a human is and what it looks like would change a lot thanks to all the Natural (and Unnatural) elements of the environment. Anywhere between 5-50 thousand years would be enough to provide space to do all the funky stuff with the Pan-Human and unexpected genetic expressions for the tampering.
At a million years I would expect humans to not look like what I think of as humans, with all the beneficial naturally selected traits rising to the surface meaning we have a lot less in common that I see Hansa having with your regular humie.

Indeed that is the answer, a few thousand of years are more than enough for most things a million years is a vastly huge period for things to happen.

Agreed - it is an unnecessarily long and, quite frankly, silly and distracting amount of background time to suggest!

and this is why the 'design by committee' approach of the original KS failed

In A.D. 2,100,001. War Was Beginning.

Anyway, I'm glad to see this project wasn't completely abandoned or forgotten about at least.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Because a million years is an unimaginably long time, millions is way too much.

I don't see how the second part follows from the first. Yes, it is an unimaginably long time. Which is good for a setting that involves godlike transcendant AI, nanotech, transhumans, posthumans, etc., etc.. A few hundreds of years is just not enough time for mankind to colonize very many planets, give each of them a "thing" for their background, create multiple subspecies with enough "oomph" to be playable races, and enough tech to make a dent in any kind of FTL Grand Central Station's worth of worlds. If there is a series of Fargates to every place worth visiting, why would there be battles for resources in just a few hundred years? Or even a few thousand?


In what way does having a vast period to fill with background qualify as "too much"?

Consider what has happened over the past million years both biologically and technologically speaking. It's too long of a time. Transhumans could easily naturally occur in 200k years (look at human evolution and Neanderthal man which appeared 300k years ago) and much, much quicker with genetic engineering and transcendant goldlike AI with Moore's Law will likely occur in a few hundred years if not sooner. One million years just seems to stretch too much the fiction part of science fiction at the expense of science.

one million is an easy number to have multiple clean slates.

 judgedoug wrote:
and this is why the 'design by committee' approach of the original KS failed

Pretty much. I'm glad they aren't going that route anymore. The setting (at least what is known so far) is vast and open enough that once the game is out, people can add in their own background without breaking it. But the setting itself needs to come from the creative vision, not be voted on by the internet.

By the way, the specific amount of time in the future was never specified, and it probably won't be. It doesn't matter. It's not supposed to be a prediction of what the future will really be like, which would be absurd and pointless even 100 years in the future. It just needs to be a large enough time in the future for man to have spread out, colonized several galaxies, for human civilization to have collapsed and re-risen seven times, and more importantly for humans to evolve along such different paths to allow an unending variety of PanHumans to populate the game with. If you're more comfortable imagining that to be 40,000 years in the future because that's what you're used to, I guess that's fine. If you think the whole premise is silly, then like someone else said, maybe the game isn't for you.

judgedoug wrote:and this is why the 'design by committee' approach of the original KS failed

Generally speaking, indeed that was an issue with its failure on many levels, I appreciate taking feedback and even changing things upon discussion, but allowing design in the hands of many is an invitation to disaster.

The Kickstarter version is kinda the past as far as I'm concerned - I mean I'd no real idea what a KS was when we started - I just agreed to design a game if we could get sufficient funding - and then found myself pressured into designing a game on the fly. Not really what I expected. Lots of the ideas were already buzzing around in my head - so I had a good overview on the scope of the game, some general design ideas, and so on. The online elements are really just my take on running a wargames campaign in a modern environment - love campaigns - always have Can't afford to pursue that idea for the moment though.

The good thing about the KS is that it forced me to actually put pen to paper and make a start at a project that would probably never gel otherwise. Playing games again, I mean SF inspired games, forces you to face up to the practicalities of design, and you start to get a better idea of what the models are going to be like and so on. I've always felt that the best people to make decisions about the sculpts are the sculptors - and you need to feel your way into that - the game design, model design and background should evolve together - well I always say so anyway!

Anyway - I wouldn't put too much store in anything we did for the KS - I've basically started again. As for when the game is set - well it's the far future - it doesn't matter exactly when and I may not worry too much about fixing that either. When I worked out the 40K background I chose a timescale that was deliberately unimaginable - c10,000 years ago = the last ice age - c5,000 years = the entire scope of human history. I suspect any imagined future will look pretty old-fashioned in a few decades time.

Rick,

Thanks for the explanation. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind answering them.

1). Any chance at a second Kickstarter to help fund the rule book or the online campaign system? I would happily donate for both.

2). Will the difference in sculpt qualities be addressed? The Borormites and the Algoryn both look great but one looks 90's and the other is modern.

3). Will Hansa have rules and be playable when the game launches?

I am always glad to read such insightful information from game designers, nice to hear about the kickstarter and how you evolved from it, it seems it served its most important role, kickstart you into action.

I agree on the organic evolution of all three aspects of a wargame in unison, I feel that in games were each part is evolved in isolation the results are painfully obvious, of course each specialist does indeed excel on his field and a sculptor traditional or digital is best suited to know better on how a sculpt must be made, but an overall collaboration between the three different elements is essential.

Personally I find a "somewhere in the future" point reference without a time reference clever and exhilarating, better than an arbitrary X amount of years in the future.

You are of course right that any imagined future now will look old fashioned in the future, but personally when I spoke of Boromites, I meant the look, not the background, I understand the overall background and I feel its good, but some details and the visual feel looks old, not the idea itself.

Overall I will say it again, while I am critical on some aspects of your new creation, I am really eager to see what you will create.

 Rick Priestley wrote:
The Kickstarter version is kinda the past as far as I'm concerned - I mean I'd no real idea what a KS was when we started - I just agreed to design a game if we could get sufficient funding - and then found myself pressured into designing a game on the fly. Not really what I expected. Lots of the ideas were already buzzing around in my head - so I had a good overview on the scope of the game, some general design ideas, and so on. The online elements are really just my take on running a wargames campaign in a modern environment - love campaigns - always have Can't afford to pursue that idea for the moment though.

So... in other words, you were willing to take almost a half million US dollars with only a vague notion about what you were doing and complacently ignorant about the method (crowdfunding) you were using to take it? Ughh... that's disgusting. You're one of the most well known names in the industry and should have known better. I do appreciate the honesty about it and that does at least reflect well on you.

Its a bit harsh don't you think, a game designer is not necessary a businessman and can accept to work on something that other manage the business end.

Very interesting commentary that should be taken to heart by anyone that attempts a Kickstarter Campaign!

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Its a bit harsh don't you think, a game designer is not necessary a businessman and can accept to work on something that other manage the business end.

Absolutely not. Being famous doesn't in my book grant you a rerollable 2++ save versus criticism. He is the cofounder of the company that was running the project and is by definition a businessman. It's bad enough when a company treats a kickstarter as business as usual like a preorder but to suggest that they shouldn't treat it as a business? I definitely disagree with that. If I want complete strangers to assume almost 100% of the financial liability of backing my dreams/ideas, you can bet that I'll talk for an hour or two with a lawyer or consultant familiar with the legalities and responsibilities of crowdfunding to better understand it before I go and ask my fellow Dakkites to give me over $400,000. I will also go to you and other posters with more information and planning than will fit on a sheet of 8.5x11" paper including pictures and a less than half done miniature. That amount of preparation would get you laughed out of making an appointment with a financial institution or private angel investor let alone actually getting them to fund you. Don't get me wrong... I don't think crowdfunding should be treated exactly like traditional funding but I do think that creators owe their investors the respect to at least prepare the initial presentation as if it was. It's bad enough that backers don't have the financial stability and safety net that the traditional routes give lenders but both the projects as well as the backers deserve the initial forethought and preparation the traditional routes get especially when your talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You are missing the point, if you are the creative part of a company and the business part come and says bla bla if we get funding you will do X project ok? and you say yes, under the assumption that project will happen after funding happens and suddenly get in the kickstarter madness that everybody expects an almost finished product.

I do not debate if the project was handled badly, I am debating the conditions on which a part of a kickstarter can be involved and on what initial conditions it is lead to believe it needs to be involved.

While I wouldn't be saying, or thinking things as strongly as Warboss there, a lot of what he's saying really does strike a note with me.

Well look at the hundreds of thousands mantic takes and delivers some of the poorest quality product out there

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
You are missing the point, if you are the creative part of a company and the business part come and says bla bla if we get funding you will do X project ok? and you say yes, under the assumption that project will happen after funding happens and suddenly get in the kickstarter madness that everybody expects an almost finished product.

Since the Kickstarter was cashing in on his name and status, I would expect him to have been a little more cognizant of what a Kickstarter is. It was more than just a celebrity endorsement.

As is obvious that was not the case.

The Kickstarter failed to fund, due mainly to the obvious slackness of the preparatory work, which was widely commented on at the time.

Consequently not a single backer lost even a penny.

Rick Priestley wrote:As for when the game is set - well it's the far future - it doesn't matter exactly when and I may not worry too much about fixing that either. When I worked out the 40K background I chose a timescale that was deliberately unimaginable - c10,000 years ago = the last ice age - c5,000 years = the entire scope of human history. I suspect any imagined future will look pretty old-fashioned in a few decades time.

I hope in the end it stays undefined. Or at the very least impossible to connect to our current calender.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Its a bit harsh don't you think, a game designer is not necessary a businessman and can accept to work on something that other manage the business end.

Quite. As if Rick would have been the only person involved with bringing the KS out?

It might have been not a very well thought out position but I think saying 'disgusting' is going to go a little too far, but hey you had a great opportunity there Warboss to get your forum e-peen lengthened by a few inches even it means you've probably just stopped one of the founding fathers of modern wargaming from posting on here again..

I am sure Rick Priestly is a big enough guy not to be put off by a few sledgers.

He is of course entitled to the same protection as any user on the forum, so perhaps we had better get back to the main topic.

Well - let me see - the reason I was comfortable with raising the money - and potentially a great deal more - is I'm confident with nearly thirty years of experience in design, running a studio, developing GW plastics ranges (responsible for 2 million pound budget per annum on tools alone at one time) I can make sure that the project would work - but only if enough money were raised. When it was obvious we couldn't raise enough to do the job properly I decided the project was untenable - and that it would indeed be unfair to reduce our target and put ourselves in a position where we couldn't deliver.

Enough KS eh!

What is the plan now?

The part of the original idea that interested me the most was the idea to do an online campaign to advance the background timeline by players sending in their battle results. Much like the 40K "Eye of Terror" and "Medusa V" campaigns done by GW.

That requires the building of a system to handle player inputs, which is a different thing to designing tabletop rules and models.

Rick notes 'Can't afford to pursue that idea [online elements] for the moment though'. From the discussion on the Warlord Games forum, I think the plan is currently to release the rules once a small range of Boromites and Algoryn have been built up, possibly with some models for a third faction.

I think the gradual build-up is a sensible way of releasing the game, to be honest. While having an all-singing, all-dancing range of four complete armies released at the same time, this approach allows for tweaking once the game hits the real world before too many people are involved, and minimises the risk of something fundamental being a problem (like AT-43's blast rules).

On the 'hard sci-fi' aspect, and the overall ethos of the production of the game, I've seen similar campaigns that turn out to be 'missing the wood for the trees'. I'm reassured by Rick's notes that 'I've always felt that the best people to make decisions about the sculpts are the sculptors' and 'As for when the game is set - well it's the far future - it doesn't matter exactly when and I may not worry too much about fixing that either' – that attitude shows a proper understanding that an overview is more important than micromanagement, and will hopefully stay in place to ensure that the different contributors all get to flex their skills.

I'm hoping for some cool campaign/progression rules, myself.

Very brave of Rick to show up in such a wretched hive of scum and villainy. I suppose he must have developed pretty thick skin over the years, especially when it comes to reading what people post on the internet. I certainly hope he doesn't get too discouraged or influenced by what a few vocal people are posting on a message board. I think a lot of people are really looking forward to what he (and the sculptors, artists, etc) comes up with for Gates of Antares.

 Pacific wrote:
Quite. As if Rick would have been the only person involved with bringing the KS out?

It might have been not a very well thought out position but I think saying 'disgusting' is going to go a little too far, but hey you had a great opportunity there Warboss to get your forum e-peen lengthened by a few inches even it means you've probably just stopped one of the founding fathers of modern wargaming from posting on here again..

Both your characterization and prediction were wrong. Being famous doesn't give you a 2++ rerollable versus criticism and the KS justifiably failed on its merits (or more accurately lack thereof). Why did it need the impetus of failing to take other people's money to give it the critical thought it got during the 6 weeks before cancellation? There is a saying about success being 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration that the campaign ignored. Now I don't expect a KS to have that ratio as the money raised pays for the perspiration (inspiriation is free!) but this one seemed to have the ratios backwards. You'll never convince me that a few broad paragraphs of text, a logo, a single half done miniature, and a famous name are enough to justify asking for $400k+. If they had put forth the 6 weeks worth of effort they created on the fly under pressure during the KS when it was floundering instead prior to it, the result and reception likely would have been different. His 30 years of experience including managing the largest minis game line in the hobby's history should have indicated that more effort on the backend would be a good idea before going public asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

In the end, the failure of the KS and changing to a traditional release (maybe with a future KS to expand the core) will probably benefit everyone. He gets to flesh it out and give it the development he feels that it needs without doing so on the fly in full view of the public. That will be better for both the IP, the company, his rep, and the community rather than a hastily put together half thought out KS that would likely go through significant changes after the community pledged based on what was initially written.

I wouldn't mind seeing some more of the sculpts.

I'd really be interested in about 10-20 of the rock guys with some different weapons options.

Interested in seeing the game flesh itself out, then maybe take it to the KS with something other then good intentions and a name. End of the day, figures and a good game is what its about.


And for what its worth, Rick is in good company here. We're not busting his balls to be chones about it. The concept, the game, and what was initially put out BEFORE the KS began was a solid core project with room for evolution, interaction with the players, and a well rounded evolution concept of the races that really had/has promise.

I really am interested in the game, but for what its worth, when you go a full on five to six weeks with a generic Norseman in space, it really did not do the project much when there was nothing in there, and people were at that point screaming to high heaven over it to see MORE.

1. Will the evolution of the beings in this universe sustain themselves in concept, and developable character? Can you do more then "Ten sculpts, and move on?"

2. Vehicles? What are we looking at, tanks, APC's, walkers, robots, GIANT robots? flying boxcars? What does the game have for vehicles?

3. Evolution of the warbands/ armies/ squads.... What and where do they go from the base starter of a couple of figures, and some terraign?

4. Planets, battlegrounds, environment rules? Exploration, territory advancement, how and why am I fighting these alien crossbreeds?


Just a couple of questions....


The game really looks interesting from my perspective, and I for one would like around 20 or so of those brick-men for some laughs.

The figures would be absolutly Ace with an added titan from Crocodile.

Bunch of rock people with a rock giant running around. A giant rock people with some mech parts hanging off of him, like a gun or a ROCKet launcher........