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I can see my friends respecting a Codex Supplement like Crimson Slaughter or Black Legion (they do!).

Respecting DLC information, that they didn't even know existed before I showed them the printout...not so much.

GW is trying to adopt a post-XBOX 360 video game model to patch up codexes. I do not play 40k against video gamers.

Mmm... I don't think there are any problems with Chaos.

I really can't think of an edition where they did not have some problems. The fact that everyone is making so much of an fuss about them in 6th edition shows you short our memories can be.

I don't personally care about competitive play, but it was a Daemons / CSM force that just won Adepticon. Over Taudar / Space Marine / Necron powerlists. It says something that they were taken as an ally, and there have been other tournaments where someone won with a straight CSM list. And it's not like the straight CSM players were all coming in last.

In terms of friendly matches, CSMs are as serviceable as any other army. I don't know of any other force that is as interesting or gives you as much space to be creative.

But more than that, I think CSMs give you the best chances to catch an opponent unprepared. If you want a CSM powerlist, max out on Heldrakes and plague zombies and let someone try to beat you. If you want a flying circus list, get 2 Daemon Princes and ally with Black Legion for another. If you want to go anti-infantry, get Chosen. If you really want to screw with someone, spend the majority of your points on Abaddon, a Land Raider and 9 chosen. Give them 3 VPs they can score off you, and kill 6 VPs worth of their forces. This really pisses people off when they think they can table you and it just can't be done.

Hard to see this kind of stuff working with any other army. I wish more people would start thinking creatively about CSMs instead of complaining about them on the Interwebs.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?

Eh, I think that's getting into an odd area. In reality, the rules of the model shouldn't be the determining factor in whether or not to purchase them, but obviously people take that into account so they don't feel like they're investing poorly.

Pricing based on rules creates problems with GW where some units are priced more highly simply because of where they sit in the game. Warhammer Dark Elf wyches are a good example of this- the fact that they also make a rare unit (Sisters of Slaughter) seems to have been a determining factor in their price. Compare wyches to their core counterparts Dreadspears, which are much cheaper even though their kit is customize-able as well.

While I am glad GW has made CSM Possessed more effective, I feel they could have been made that effective when they came out with their core codex.

Yeah, CSM suck right now. More to do with the core rules than the codex itself in my opinion,

I have heard this a lot recently and I don't understand it. How can you blame the 6th ed rules? Kelly had the 6th ed rules in hand when he wrote the new CSM book and completely ignored them. The problem ISN'T that the 6th ed rules exist. The problem is that he wrote a book that stalwartly refuses to acknowledge that existance. As Vaktahi said, this book would have been AMAZING in 4th ed. As it stands, it was most emphatically not written as a 6th ed book. It has a lot more to do with the the codex itself than with the changes 6 brought about. A lot of units are still priced on a 4th/5th ed paradigm, in an edition where overwatch, random charge and random charge distance exist and you can't assault out of reserves or on the turn you DS we are given a unit that relies on assaulting out of DS and is costed like a 2nd ed Terminator, no reliable assault transports that don't cost an arm and a leg (but still a ton of assault units), etc, etc. Oh, did I mention the fact that since we have no reliable way to prevent scatter that unit that depends on its deep strike is likeliy going to ... well, scatter? I could go on all day with examples like that. Again, since the new rules were not a surprise to anyone (except maybe Phil K) I don't think you can blame the new edition. Blood Angels took a beating because of the new edition, but when your book comes out AFTER the new rules and sucks - well, then the problem lies elsewhere.

On top of all that, this book and the 'nids book are the only ones that actively punish the player for using them. The entire CSM book is just one huge study in missed opportunity imo.

 Sephyr wrote:
With the new Astra Militarum book handing out Divination AND Power of the Machine Spirit out like candy, CSM become even more of a moot point.

Even if supplements address this in the future (making Iron Warriors BB with AM, for instance), it still empties the core book. Soon everyone would be playing "World Eaters but using Iron Warriors rules", which is a sure sign of lazy game design.

Which is better than right now, "Chaos using Loyalist rules"

I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.

 Kain wrote:

 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.

Fair enough, cheers haha

 techsoldaten wrote:
Mmm... I don't think there are any problems with Chaos.

I really can't think of an edition where they did not have some problems. The fact that everyone is making so much of an fuss about them in 6th edition shows you short our memories can be.

I don't personally care about competitive play, but it was a Daemons / CSM force that just won Adepticon. Over Taudar / Space Marine / Necron powerlists. It says something that they were taken as an ally, and there have been other tournaments where someone won with a straight CSM list. And it's not like the straight CSM players were all coming in last.

In terms of friendly matches, CSMs are as serviceable as any other army. I don't know of any other force that is as interesting or gives you as much space to be creative.

But more than that, I think CSMs give you the best chances to catch an opponent unprepared. If you want a CSM powerlist, max out on Heldrakes and plague zombies and let someone try to beat you. If you want a flying circus list, get 2 Daemon Princes and ally with Black Legion for another. If you want to go anti-infantry, get Chosen. If you really want to screw with someone, spend the majority of your points on Abaddon, a Land Raider and 9 chosen. Give them 3 VPs they can score off you, and kill 6 VPs worth of their forces. This really pisses people off when they think they can table you and it just can't be done.

Hard to see this kind of stuff working with any other army. I wish more people would start thinking creatively about CSMs instead of complaining about them on the Interwebs.

That is the problem. The list that won Adepticon had a Sorcerer, 10 cultists and a Heldrake. We want our ENTIRE book to not suck, I could care less about the Heldrake. Hell, if the Heldrake was SD Hellstorm template and the codex was the same I would still complain because the rest of the book is garbage.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.

Wasn't IW really brutal but the real terror was some siren bomb or something? As per 3.5.... It was probably the best and worst chaos codex combined. On one hand, it had ways to play several legions on top of being the last to still have daemons merged with the chaos codex allowing for some cool synergy. On the other hand, it had horrific internal balance even amongst legions where it had one or two that were absolutely broken and had many that were horrifically bad. I'd say it is the best Chaos Codex but I'd also say that such a statement is disappointing to say since it was pretty messy itself.

The only commonality of all the chaos codices is that when it comes to CSM, Tzeentch is a bad choice and Ksons shall always be terrible-subpar

There was lots of very powerful armies.

A lot of builds wouldn't exist in the 3.5 world... There were so many restrictions that "made" the legion. No marked nurgle bikers, or marked Obliterators. No bolters on MoK units. Etc.

 Accolade wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Crimson slaughter was released to sell possesed models that people would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Why? Because they are £30 for five minis.

Sooo, its in final bad that they made the unit (somewhat) useful? Because, good work would be not want to sell you models?

Eh, I think that's getting into an odd area. In reality, the rules of the model shouldn't be the determining factor in whether or not to purchase them, but obviously people take that into account so they don't feel like they're investing poorly.

Pricing based on rules creates problems with GW where some units are priced more highly simply because of where they sit in the game. Warhammer Dark Elf wyches are a good example of this- the fact that they also make a rare unit (Sisters of Slaughter) seems to have been a determining factor in their price. Compare wyches to their core counterparts Dreadspears, which are much cheaper even though their kit is customize-able as well.

While I am glad GW has made CSM Possessed more effective, I feel they could have been made that effective when they came out with their core codex.

Sadly models cost way too much not to take rules into account, if you pay £25 for ten blood claws assemble and paint them then find out after all that they suck would you be happy?

£25 buys alot of things so before you spend it on toy soldiers you want to know it's not going to be a waste.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.

The problem is that Iron Warriors was the perfect army for 3rd edition. You could get away with two five man chaos squads for troops and then load up everything else with obliterators and pie plate throwing tanks. The typical 3.5 Iron warriors list wouldn't survive at all in today's game, as you need to be more conscious of objectives, flyers, and other such things. I myself ran Slannesh and never once even considered taking Siren. My list was a combo of shooty and assaulty and had tons of fluff flavor. I used sacred numbers, and guys with noise weapons.

I'll agree that the codex could be broken, but it also was a gamers dream as it allowed anyone to field exactly what they wanted to. You could make heros or hords. You could go low or middle of the road in model count.

I have many fond memories of that codex and the army I played. I also know that my opponents did too because I never was refused a second game.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
In 3rd CSM got two books, the second of which is referee to the 3.5 codex. It was a poorly balanced mess of stuff that basically encouraged everyone to only play Iron Warriors.

Wasn't IW really brutal but the real terror was some siren bomb or something? As per 3.5.... It was probably the best and worst chaos codex combined. On one hand, it had ways to play several legions on top of being the last to still have daemons merged with the chaos codex allowing for some cool synergy. On the other hand, it had horrific internal balance even amongst legions where it had one or two that were absolutely broken and had many that were horrifically bad. I'd say it is the best Chaos Codex but I'd also say that such a statement is disappointing to say since it was pretty messy itself.

The only commonality of all the chaos codices is that when it comes to CSM, Tzeentch is a bad choice and Ksons shall always be terrible-subpar

Yep, the Siren Bomb was taking a Lord or Daemon Prince, giving them the Sorcerer ability, MoS, and taking 6 minor psychic powers so you'd guarantee having Siren which, when cast, made the model untargetable for shooting or assault (unless your opponent was playing Daemonhunters and actually brought Grey Knights...). You'd also give him a Personal Icon and have a bunch of Daemonettes (or the Daemonette Cav).

Turn 1 you'd run him up the board, and then Turn 2 onward you'd start vomiting daemons that could assault the turn they were summoned into his lines.

I remember Iron Warriors getting a lot of hate for the 9 Obliterator+4 HS army, but they never really tore up the tournament scene like Siren Prince builds did.

Why are people saying we just want our old OP codex back?

Why doesn't everyone get their codex OP and then we can all just go crazy on each other? We'd all be happier, I'd get my drop pods. And Tau wouldn't receive the hate for cowering behind an ADL for 5 turns.

Still love my Chaos, but just feel the love for the game slipping the more juicy codex's that drop that we can't even ally with.

I think that's what's making things worse. Other armies are coming out there that certain armies can take. But Mono Codex lists are going the way of the Squats.

A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.

 Grumzimus wrote:
Why are people saying we just want our old OP codex back?

Why doesn't everyone get their codex OP and then we can all just go crazy on each other? We'd all be happier, I'd get my drop pods. And Tau wouldn't receive the hate for cowering behind an ADL for 5 turns.

Still love my Chaos, but just feel the love for the game slipping the more juicy codex's that drop that we can't even ally with.

I think that's what's making things worse. Other armies are coming out there that certain armies can take. But Mono Codex lists are going the way of the Squats.

I'm sure everybody (well, everybody who's codex has gone through enough evolutions) has a "glory days" codex they'd like to go back to. I can't blame them, if I played chaos as my main army I'm sure I'd be wishing for the 3.5 dex coming back too.

But in all honesty the dex wasn't that bad. Ditch the minor powers, the force org shenanigans, add in the new units (maulerfiend etc), and allow allying between legions (assuming of course the ancient enemies rule) and you'd probably be fine. May need to do some points shuffling to reduce some prices though.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.

I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The CSM codex was terrible from the day it was printed and relied on wanky FA choices to beat non updated lists. Each passing day makes them more irrelevant.

This pretty much summarizes my feelings on this, unfortunately.

Yeah, I agree.

Tons of upgrades you should never take (ichor blood, combat familiars, GoM, etc)
Tons of units you should never take that they're always trying to buff (helbrutes, possessed, etc)
Too much bolters for ranged weaponry
weak CC units that lack the movement to get killed in CC
Poor number of vehicle options (no drop pods, only 1 type of land raider, etc)

And then Ahriman, lord of the Corvidae, has no access to divination, and has no EW. Thanks GW.


BUT WAIT! Heldrakes and MoN Oblits. Ur good to go.

All doomsaying aside tho, 4 more supplements are supposed to come out this year so GW is trying to make the game more balanced.

The CSM Codex was the first Codex of 6th Ed. It was a test run for them. They were shy about doing things, conservative about adding rules and things. DA branched a little more. Daemons moreso. Tau shook things up. Eldar was a small earthquake. Space Marines let things settle down a little with small tremors because they knew it would sell regardless. Escalation was a major earthquake. All these supplements where tremors along the way. IG/AM shakes things up again and we'll see how it goes.

Tyranids...they were a mistake in 6th Ed on GW's part, trying to bring them into line with other codexes when they are "completely alien."

Makumba wrote:
(...)The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

That´s funny. I know a lot of fluff about Chaos and never read about that.

Coming to think of it, even the most recent Chaos-related book, the Crimson Slaughter Codex, says: "So it was that Abaddon, the Warmaster of Chaos, had taken notice of the Crimson Slaughter. In the brutal dog-eat-dog existence that is the Eye of Terror, it does not pay to lose sight of rising powers, even for those on top. None could match the size and power of the Chaos Space Marine Legions, and of those the most powerful and well organised was the Black Legion." And the first background material on Chaos (Realm of Chaos, back in 1989) gave us separated lists for the Black Legion, the Emperor´s Children and so on.

So I would say that every single source ever, from 1989 to 2014, has clearly established that the Chaos Legions are alive and kicking. And I don´t get why so many people claim otherwise on the Internet. I think it is just something people keep claiming over and over to somehow justify that CSM were reduced to its minimal expression in 4th edition.


About the current Codex, just look at the CSM lists on tournaments: sorcerer/DP, cultists and heldrakes. Not a single CSM. Even for not-competitive players it is difficult to accept a basic unit that is so much worse than the SM equivalent, for nearly the same price. It kills the fun.

The Codex is an awful work, and a lazy one.

The Devs basically used "Word of God" on CSM back at Games Day a couple years ago and declared the Legions gone (which is fine, the Warbands that splintered from those Legions should still fight like the Legions they once were though).

Makumba wrote:


I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

I think everything said here is completely wrong.
I don't understand the trollish take on "there's nothing to do put spam Drakes, so live with it." If you had a point, you need to make it clearer, unless your point is to be a troll, then you did that wonderfully.
As for legions, where in the world did you read that Black Legion was the only Legion? The Word Bearers are still a very powerful legion. Death Guard are still a legion. Iron Warriors are a legion. Alpha legion is a legion; we just don't know where they are. Many of them are the same traitors that rebelled with Horus.

Have you actually read any of the fluff?

 Kain wrote:

 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.

but loyalist also get grav weapons and multimeltas

Makumba wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.

I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

This is what I see a lot of, and it's either trolling or complete ignorance. If you read the AM codex, Eldar, Tau (and Farsight, for that matter), Daemons, and Space Marines, and have any real knowledge of what's in the CSM codex, then the only real honest conclusion is that CSM is a terribly written codex. I haven't crunched the numbers, but, for argument's sake, it is safe to say that a 1500 point list in CSM is comparable to a 1000 or 1250 list in most other codices. I won't even go into how terrible our HQ choices are (unless you're willing to spend 200+ points and have the HQ be the center piece of your entire army). And the two books GW released didn't fix the core problems with the book. Virtually every unit (except the heldrake and maybe oblits) is cheaper and/or more powerful in another codex. Our base troops are laughable, our cult troops are way overpriced, elites are almost unusable, and fast and heavy are very predictable. Not to mention the champions of chaos rule, which is the dumbest thing I have ever seen (in close second is the warp storm table).

Also, some of us don't like spamming heldrakes. They are great, but they are somewhat boring and do not contribute to synergy.

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.

but loyalist also get grav weapons and multimeltas

Same reason that 30k and 40k grav weapons work completely differently.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.

and Fear to the Bullgruns

Makumba wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
A nice solution might be some sort of Traitor Guard supplement. Take out some juicy bits like Scions and half the Tanks. Add some "fluffy restrictions" and make them Battle Brothers with CSM. Then Chaos players get to buy Two more books, AND a new army. And don't forget to add Soul-blaze to the CCS.

I think GW already did more then enough for chaos players. A 4th chaos book isn't needed , If chaos players can't make it work , then maybe there is nothing to make work apart from helldrakes and they should either be happy spaming an OP flyer or switch to other armies.
I also don't understand this talk about legions . The fluff says that only the BL exists as a force and all other legions do not exists , that chaos forces are made out of warbands created out of different renegades . So making legion codex that are something else then w30k , would not be fluffy.

I'm sorry but....I have nothing to say...this is...

I'm gonna have to bring out the picture.



Wow...I mean...

I don't even have anything snarky to say.

I can't really find anything that isn't wrong here.

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Brother Lem wrote:
I won't start a new thread to ask this but it does come under a codex let down for CSM.

Why can't the Chaos take Plasma Cannons in infantry units like SM can? Not that Plasma is the be all and end all but when your opponent can rip a unit apart and you can't, you have to wonder haha

Same reasons that the loyalist marines forgot how to wield autocannons by hand.

but loyalist also get grav weapons and multimeltas

Same reason that 30k and 40k grav weapons work completely differently.

Well, 40K grav guns have now made an appearance in 30K Mechanicus lists as the graviton imploder.