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What kind of figure would you be looking at for a 'one of everything' pledge (like the sweet spot pledges from mantic) ?

The dollar format is something I am seriously considering.


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I am trying to keep the format simple for the KS. So many are overly complicated. As I said in the earlier post, the early birds will enable pledgers to get a whole load of plastic miniatures (196 I think) along with the Goblin Skulk KS exclusive figure and one of each of the free stretch goal packs or miniatures. On top of this pledgers at this level can purchase from the addon store. All of the addons will be much, much cheaper than retail. There will be larger pledges available which will give pledgers the opportunity to take home huge amounts of sprues. It is important to note that these sprues can be mixed once the stretch goals open the Zombie Abominations and Lizardkin plastic figure stretch goals. One thing you can rest assured... If you pledge you will get a whole lot of minis for not much cash!!!

It might be worthwhile for you to consider a conservative initial kickstarter rather than go big from the start. It seems like customers for miniature kickstarters have become more discerning (from recent offerings like final frontier). Having a small successfully delivered kickstarter to prove your concept would probably help out a second more expansive kickstarter immensely.

That is good advice. However plastic models are not cheap to manufacture. You cannot manufacture good quality plastic miniatures with a conservative KS target. All I can say is that people will receive great value for money with this KS, somewhere between 0.62p and 0.50p per model if pledging on our Early Birds. That is half the price of the GW equivalent! Once the stretch are achieved each pledger will receive additional models free too. I want to make this an opportunity to good to miss!

All sounds good so far, just curious if your target launch date is still this year?

Plus a bucket load of plastic sprues is my ideal outcome from this ks

Yeah. We are aiming for the fourth quarter 2014. We are very close to having sculpts back. All the art work, graphic design and rules are written. We just need the models!!

Looking forward to your goblins. I won't be buying any zombies, but wish you luck with them.

I really hope you do something else in plastic, especially if it isn't something that's been done to death.

Sorry, by conservative I meant doing a kickstarter for a half dozen metal/resin miniatures this summer. You want something easily deliverable in a month or two so that when you launch your kickstarter in Q4 you have something to reassure potential customers. "Look here, we've already delivered this other kickstarter on time. We know what we're doing".

 Duskland wrote:
Sorry, by conservative I meant doing a kickstarter for a half dozen metal/resin miniatures this summer. You want something easily deliverable in a month or two so that when you launch your kickstarter in Q4 you have something to reassure potential customers. "Look here, we've already delivered this other kickstarter on time. We know what we're doing".

Would that really reassure anyone? Producing plastic is totally different, and a successful KS for plastic minis will have at least one order of magnitude more backers to ship to. Besides, there have been so many forgettable metal or resin KS campaigns already that no one will remember them. The age of Dreamforge is over.

 Duskland wrote:
It might be worthwhile for you to consider a conservative initial kickstarter rather than go big from the start. It seems like customers for miniature kickstarters have become more discerning (from recent offerings like final frontier). Having a small successfully delivered kickstarter to prove your concept would probably help out a second more expansive kickstarter immensely.

Kaine Larson wrote:
That is good advice. However plastic models are not cheap to manufacture. You cannot manufacture good quality plastic miniatures with a conservative KS target. All I can say is that people will receive great value for money with this KS, somewhere between 0.62p and 0.50p per model if pledging on our Early Birds. That is half the price of the GW equivalent! Once the stretch are achieved each pledger will receive additional models free too. I want to make this an opportunity to good to miss!

Without trying to be a dick, you want to try and be half the price of the GW equivalent at retail. If your models cost 75% of what the GW ones do at retail, then you're going to lose a lot of business as many people will just pay a little more (not that much more, given the realities of discounters) and buy the GW ones instead - which already fit their existing army aesthetic.

Don't look at GW's inflated prices and try to slightly undercut them - you will fail. Look at the historical stuff that's also put out by Renedra and go for that level of quality and price.
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_34&products_id=2471&osCsid=adhdqui3enp1oi6adbbcoolmh2
WR 1 Plastic Wars of the Roses Infantry 1450-1500, bows and bills (40 figures). You can build up to 30 bowmen, up to 18 billmen and includes 4 fully armoured command. £20.00
That's 50p each, at retail for Renedra-produced hard plastic armymans with individual options and command. Yours may have different details, and be fantasy rather than historical, but those are really just superficial differences. It's very much the same thing.


I'd strongly suggest that the hobgoblins and bugbears - and maybe even the flesh golem and zombie hulk should be a followup campaign. Better to do several small campaigns, and do them well than yet another overblown, over-extended, over-freebie-stretch-goal campaign that turns into a year-delayed nightmare for all involved.

Perry miniatures has the luxury of being owned/run by sculptors (who get paid for a day job at GW) but love their historical still

so there is plenty of opportunity to avoid a lot of the sculpting costs, and offset costs against future profits in a longer term fashion than a company that has to pay it's way alone

(they could also benefit from price breaks from Renendra as long term repeat customers?)

so while those prices would be attractive they may not be realistic

Kaine Larson wrote:
We are planning to do this. The big question at the moment is whether to keep the hobgoblins and bugbears as plastic or to simply make them in resin and metal. This would of course be the same for the flesh golem and zombie hulk and for us to put all if our plastic resources into the goblins and zombies? This may make the kickstarter cheaper in the long run. We are estimating that with with sculpting costs and tooling costs with Renedra we would need to start the KS at around the £60k mark. Unfortunately making quality plastics with the best designers and the best plastic model makers does not come cheap! I would also like to say that this leaves only a minimal amount if profit for Minion Miniatures as a company so we are able to produce additional boxes to sell.

 Gallahad wrote:
Put out the best goblin and zombie sprues that you can. Leave the big stuff for metal or resin initially.

Have your stretch goals add stuff to the sprues or add in command sprues and other fun bits.

You may consider having your initial funding goal just be to fund the goblin sprue in fact. A low initial goal and then 'stretchgoals' seem to have a certain psychological impact. Then have stretch goals adding in bits, bugbears in metal, etc. up until you reach the point where you can afford to do the zombie sprue, then do the same thing with the zombie sprue.

Kaine Larson wrote:
That total is just for the goblin sprues! The tooling costs are enormous, many people don't realise just how much it costs to get the metal tools made. However, once we hit our goal, each stretch goal will make two models or model sets available. One will be free to all pledges of a certain level, the other will be added to the addon store to be purchased separately. I have looked at cheaper options for the tooling, but I don't think it's worth it. Simply stated, Renedra make the best quality plastic miniatures I have ever seen. Each tool is hand made... not CNC machined which means the end product will be great! As a gamer, I think quality is the most important thing. The manufacturing will also mean the final product will be cheap! Which is good for you guys! Our early bird option will probably be around 110 and give you close to 200 goblins!!!

Well, with all due respect (and don't take this the wrong way), but I don't know if you realize where you are standing or if you are just hoping this KS will go over the roof. I like your ideas and concept, but if that's how much you need in order to push forward your project, then I don't see how it's doable. Even if you reach out and people support you (which at the prices you wrote down, that's -25% from GW, which I don't find an "incredible" bargain, especially if it's reserved for early birds?) how many goblins are people going to buy using the same sprue? How many weapon options are they going to have? I immagine hand-weapons+shields, bows, spears? That's 3 different weapon combinations, which should be a minimum for someone wanting to make so many goblins. And I assume the command will be included in this first 60K, I mean gathering 196 goblins and hoping the stretch point gets met in order to get the command, it's just too much to ask for. You can always upgrade the offer to 250-300 goblins but I already find the 196 goblins offered more than plenty. It's like GW's clanrats from IoB, after you've done your first block of 40-50, then it's practically just too many of the same thing...
So let's assume there will be enough people who want to make 196 goblins with these combinations. Even if you erase the "early bird" option (which I believe you should) that's 110£ (you said that above) from each. In order to reach 60K, you'll need 545 backers as a minimum. And that's them pledging all for the same 1 single product! (I think it's also obvious at this point that shipping is included at this pledge level, right?). Using "Renedra" as a known manufacturer sounds cool but will not guarantee you success since nobody knows you and noone has ever bought from you before. (I repeat, do not take this the wrong way) As others mentioned before, the Golden Age of KS where KS just showed artwork and some 8-10 sculpts is clearly over. You need to show product, professionally painted, you need to have a history and then some. And that still doesn't guarantee success! A known manufacturer puts his reputation at risk (see how well it worked out for AoW and Mantic), an unknown manufacturer however puts at risk... oh well... nothing! The entire risk is on the backer's shoulders.

I'll give the same opinion as someone else did, but without an initial Kickstarter since you are obviously putting a bit of money and time into this (and I respect that). Make some products, learn the Industry, sell some product, gain brand loyalty. Then you can move on to a Kickstarter. If you however wish to shoot your arrow and hope it lands where it should, then all good. And I'm happy to see you'll be doing this last quarter of the year, it shows you're being serious in preparing this and that's definitely very important if someone wants to have a successful crowdfunding project (as Tre knows better than the rest of us).

Also, I'd fix your FB page description "Minion Miniatures is a new fantasy miniatures production company who will produce 28mm scale fantasy miniatures in high grade plastic and white metal." Otherwise it's misleading and that's not good for you.

Thank you for your feedback. The goblin sprues will be packed with options, different weapons, shields and a command option will be available in the basic boxed set. These will not be stretch goal addons. Each sprue will hold 12 goblins. In regard to pricing our EB will provide 196 goblins for around the same price as you could buy 100 GW goblins. That's 96 more goblins, plus the KS exclusive miniature, plus as many free stretch goals that are hit will be a good deal for a Goblin collector. That is not 25% cheaper than GW. That's nearer 50%! I want to give good value to people and a quality product. I have put a lot if my own money into this venture and I have hired the best artist and sculptors that I can. I hope it will be enough for people to part with their money as I am doing this out of a love for gaming and not to become "rich quick". I take all your recommendations on board and I will certainly do my best to provide a KS and a product that will be if the highest quality.

The only thing I'd say here is that you do need to stick close to your goals and bear them in mind the whole way. Bringing in the people that want 200+ Goblins is great as they bring cash with them, but don't forget that you planned this as a skirmish game (unless, of course, you want to get the models out with this KS and the game itself comes after).

I'm not saying you will, and I'm sure you've already considered both sides of this, but there's been a lot of talk about army building here, which from what you said at the start is where this is going. I just figured I'd mention it.

Also, any idea when this will be seeing retail assuming a Q4 KS? I don't tend to go for KSers for various reasons, but I am very much looking forward to seeing some of these models in future.

Kaine Larson wrote:
Thank you for your feedback. The goblin sprues will be packed with options, different weapons, shields and a command option will be available in the basic boxed set. These will not be stretch goal addons. Each sprue will hold 12 goblins. In regard to pricing our EB will provide 196 goblins for around the same price as you could buy 100 GW goblins. That's 96 more goblins, plus the KS exclusive miniature, plus as many free stretch goals that are hit will be a good deal for a Goblin collector. That is not 25% cheaper than GW. That's nearer 50%! I want to give good value to people and a quality product. I have put a lot if my own money into this venture and I have hired the best artist and sculptors that I can. I hope it will be enough for people to part with their money as I am doing this out of a love for gaming and not to become "rich quick". I take all your recommendations on board and I will certainly do my best to provide a KS and a product that will be if the highest quality.

I'm glad you received this the way I intended it to. OK, 12 goblins on each sprue with weapons,shields and command. Those are some good and clear facts here on this KS lay-out.

I'm trying my hardest to make it clear. What people will get and what I am trying to achieve. It's probably worthwhile giving people some background to Minion Miniatures. I am a wargamer, roleplayers and general table top gamer with25 years experience. I have been a professional painter and modeller for the last 15 years and have lots if experience writing rules both for roleplaying game, boardgames and wargames both fantasy and historical. I have never made any of my rules commercially available mainly due to career constraints but I think now is the time to start bringing my fantasy visions to other gamers and not just my friends and gaming buddies. I have worked in the miniatures business as well working for GW a few years ago and I also have experience working in small start up businesses and developing a brand. If there is anything else peeps want to know about me, the company, our aims and objectives please let me know!

For reference, GW goblins retail for £1.02 per mini.

Mantic goblins retail for £0.75 per mini and are horrible quality (I own 40, they suck and are never getting painted!).

Seriously, this pic says it all, and I can confirm that it's not just a bad photo, they really are that awful:



I was super-eager to buy them when they were released, but the quality is garbage, completely mushed-out detail, really hard shiny plastic and a big "made in china" stamp on the sprue. So, I'm still waiting for someone to come along and make some good goblins at a price where I can buy the quantities I need and in a material (hard plastic) that doesn't take ages to clean and assemble. That's where this KS comes in.

Definitely a huge gap in the market there. And the "Perrys sell historicals for 50p" thing really is a dead-horse debate since they're not going to make fantasy models, ever. That debate only directly applies to fantasy human models which historicals can directly compete with. Historicals are a totally different (and larger) market to fantasy/ sci-fi, if a Napoleonic infantryman is 50p, that's because some people end up buying several thousand of them (I've seen historical displays with 10-20k 28mm minis on them) which allows the price to be set that low due to economies of scale factors which do not apply to fantasy/ sci-fi.

The KS is going to need money from any source to fund, wargamers, board gamers, collectors, skirmish gamers, painters, people who just want the rules etc.

Me buying my gobbo horde isn't going to "take away" from the creation of a skirmish game, in fact if anything I might get interested in the skirmish game as a result. Certainly interested in the lizardmen concepts if it gets that far, and the Undead are looking really great too, its not often you see the mad scientist theme with them.

I like the concept sketch but dont play fantasy. Can you have a V .01 Draft of the rules availible at launch so I/we can see the direction you are headed in with the Skirmish game?

A basic version of the rules will be available when the KS launches and possibly just before.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Perry miniatures has the luxury of being owned/run by sculptors (who get paid for a day job at GW) but love their historical still

so there is plenty of opportunity to avoid a lot of the sculpting costs, and offset costs against future profits in a longer term fashion than a company that has to pay it's way alone

(they could also benefit from price breaks from Renendra as long term repeat customers?)

so while those prices would be attractive they may not be realistic

Ultimately, it's not the consumer's problem. If they want to have fantasy figures that are significantly different to and only slightly cheaper than GW's ones, they will fail. It might take some time, but they will at best find it hard to get out of the little niche. Maybe LotR players might take them up in numbers.
How about WGF? 25 figures for US$22. Sure, the excuse there is that WGF own the means of production, etc. To the end consumer though, that's irrelevant.

Basing prices so closely off GW's ever-inflating prices is commonplace in the industry, but ultimately foolish. We all know that GW have been pushing the envelope for the last 10 years on how far their price elasticity will stretch. Going in with significantly different figures for a product as both specific and niche as goblins at a price close to GW's might get Scarlet Squig overly-excited, but it's not going to be a great recipe for long-term success. These guys need to be basing their prices off the best value they can possibly offer, not off a negligible saving from GW's laughable RRP.

^ Well, shieldwolf miniatures are currently selling their stuff quite nicely with exactly the same business model that you claim is an automatic "doomed to failure", and that's without even using kickstarter.

There is definitely an upper limit on retail pricing, which is probably why Avatars of War hasn't had as much success (and switched to restic instead), but unless there's a competing product at a lower price (and equal or better quality), the point is invalid as far as actual real-world comparisons go.

And Malifaux is currently thriving as a fantasy skirmish game which sells hard plastics for around £5/model. High quality can trump low pricing, but only if it gets taken seriously.

With pricing what I've seen with players looking to get into a game is, they want a cheap starter set (Ideally in the £20-£30 range) that gives them everything they need to play.. after that, they don't mind if the add-ons for it are a bit pricier.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Perry miniatures has the luxury of being owned/run by sculptors (who get paid for a day job at GW) but love their historical still

so there is plenty of opportunity to avoid a lot of the sculpting costs, and offset costs against future profits in a longer term fashion than a company that has to pay it's way alone

(they could also benefit from price breaks from Renendra as long term repeat customers?)

so while those prices would be attractive they may not be realistic

This is partly true and I agree that perry prices might be hard to match, but I disagree a bit on the reasons. The long term customer Renendra price break idea is purely speculation. It's far more likely that any price break might get would be based on quantity ordered. Also, it is an advantage to have a day-job, but lots of sculptors work for themselves and other companies (though admittedly usually freelance). Tre Manor, Tom Meier, etc, etc.

The real advantage that Perry has is twofold. First, they have built an excellent and long-standing reputation in Historical, Sci-Fi and Fantasy miniatures. Their name stands for quality and their products reflect this. Second, their plastic kits in particular represent extremely sober-minded analysis of what kits the historical gamer will need to have multiple sets of. They can be quite confident that when they make a plastic kit that it will sell and sell very well.

 scarletsquig wrote:
For reference, GW goblins retail for £1.02 per mini.

Mantic goblins retail for £0.75 per mini and are horrible quality (I own 40, they suck and are never getting painted!).

Seriously, this pic says it all, and I can confirm that it's not just a bad photo, they really are that awful:

Spoiler:

I was super-eager to buy them when they were released, but the quality is garbage, completely mushed-out detail, really hard shiny plastic and a big "made in china" stamp on the sprue. So, I'm still waiting for someone to come along and make some good goblins at a price where I can buy the quantities I need and in a material (hard plastic) that doesn't take ages to clean and assemble. That's where this KS comes in.

So the upshot of that is that Mantic's goblins are gak. How well do they sell? I'll certainly never buy any. I'd clearly rather pay 25p more and buy GW's ones. For the insignificant price difference, I'm sure that's the overriding choice for all but Mantic's biggest fanboys.

Definitely a huge gap in the market there. And the "Perrys sell historicals for 50p" thing really is a dead-horse debate since they're not going to make fantasy models, ever. That debate only directly applies to fantasy human models which historicals can directly compete with. Historicals are a totally different (and larger) market to fantasy/ sci-fi, if a Napoleonic infantryman is 50p, that's because some people end up buying several thousand of them (I've seen historical displays with 10-20k 28mm minis on them) which allows the price to be set that low due to economies of scale factors which do not apply to fantasy/ sci-fi.

No. See, this is where you're allowing your own personal desires to cloud your judgement. You personally really want a shitton of models with "goblin" stamped on them, and that's fine. I'd probably buy a couple of hundred of them myself via the KS. The point is that if these are also going to retail for 25p less than GW's goblins, while not even being a bad copy of the GW style, then they're probably also going to fail in the market as badly as Mantic's ones, based on
1) lack of enough company-specific superfans to support them.
2) people will just buy GW's "proper-looking" goblins at a 20% or 30% discount from online retailers.

The KS is going to need money from any source to fund, wargamers, board gamers, collectors, skirmish gamers, painters, people who just want the rules etc.
Me buying my gobbo horde isn't going to "take away" from the creation of a skirmish game, in fact if anything I might get interested in the skirmish game as a result.

All this, I agree with.



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 scarletsquig wrote:
^ Well, shieldwolf miniatures are currently selling their stuff quite nicely with exactly the same business model that you claim is an automatic "doomed to failure", and that's without even using kickstarter.

There is definitely an upper limit on retail pricing, which is probably why Avatars of War hasn't had as much success (and switched to restic instead), but unless there's a competing product at a lower price (and equal or better quality), the point is invalid as far as actual real-world comparisons go.

You mean Shieldwolf's Mountain Orcs (20 models for €25.00) compared to GW's Savage Orcs (10 models for €23.00)? Those ones where the Shieldwolf models at retail are a fraction over half of the price of the GW ones?

Great example. For my argument. Not so much for the Minion retail pricing model.


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 scarletsquig wrote:
^ Well, shieldwolf miniatures are currently selling their stuff quite nicely with exactly the same business model that you claim is an automatic "doomed to failure", and that's without even using kickstarter.

There is definitely an upper limit on retail pricing, which is probably why Avatars of War hasn't had as much success (and switched to restic instead), but unless there's a competing product at a lower price (and equal or better quality), the point is invalid as far as actual real-world comparisons go.

And Malifaux is currently thriving as a fantasy skirmish game which sells hard plastics for around £5/model. High quality can trump low pricing, but only if it gets taken seriously.

With pricing what I've seen with players looking to get into a game is, they want a cheap starter set (Ideally in the £20-£30 range) that gives them everything they need to play.. after that, they don't mind if the add-ons for it are a bit pricier.

Being blunt here - how many people will give two gaks about yet another small scale fantasy miniatures skirmish game started on Kickstarter? Compared to the real market for this stuff, which is not-warhammer? And I say this as someone who would probably back this KS, no longer plays Warhammer and instead plays KoW. (with models from whatever looks good to my eye, which would include these goblins.) You or I might try out the skirmish game, but unless it beats out the others in the same genre we're likely to play, we'll just go back to Mordheim or SBH or whatever, and use the goblins mostly for KoW. I'm assuming that you're like myself, JudgeDoug and others in that you'll use your X figures for anything you damn well please rather than segregate them by manufactuer's-own IP stuff. (And that these will be your KoW goblin army).

There are some other things to point out here. Perry miniatures are smaller in scale, generally in starchy poses that look good en masse and in many cases are only two three piece castings. This is not always the case as some of the kits have multiple arms etc but not all if them. The fact that fantasy models tend to be in different poses (generally more dynamic), tend to be split at the waist (as ours will be) and have a variety of weapon options means that we cannot fit as much on a sprue. GW's models are smaller, you cannot pose them as well and ours will be significantly cheaper. These numbers are preliminary and are subject to change a little and any savings we can make for the customer we will do so. I am trying to make a product with a different aesthetic, cheaper than GW with as high a quality as possible. I can either make great models for 35 - 50% cheaper than GW or super cheap models in poor plastic from the far reaches of the world for 50-60% of the cost. I can understand and respect your opinion but I cannot please everyone.

Well I can say from what you have shown so far I am highly impressed. I am not a big fantasy player by any means (actually I hate almost all fantasy ideas, no idea why, but none really grabbed me) but your stuff seems different and unique so I think when it comes around (and I am glad that it is later in the year as I am out of cash now) I will get some of the undead. I like you are focusing on quality. I agree with you 100% that great models for 35 - 50% cheaper than GW is the best idea. Just offer what you can within your means. Keep it realistic and it seems like you will do fine.

Thank you for your kind words. For every critique it's nice to here some positivity!

Kaine Larson wrote:
There are some other things to point out here. Perry miniatures are smaller in scale, generally in starchy poses that look good en masse and in many cases are only two three piece castings. This is not always the case as some of the kits have multiple arms etc but not all if them. The fact that fantasy models tend to be in different poses (generally more dynamic), tend to be split at the waist (as ours will be) and have a variety of weapon options means that we cannot fit as much on a sprue. GW's models are smaller, you cannot pose them as well and ours will be significantly cheaper. These numbers are preliminary and are subject to change a little and any savings we can make for the customer we will do so. I am trying to make a product with a different aesthetic, cheaper than GW with as high a quality as possible. I can either make great models for 35 - 50% cheaper than GW or super cheap models in poor plastic from the far reaches of the world for 50-60% of the cost. I can understand and respect your opinion but I cannot please everyone.

It's not about "pleasing everyone" - or even myself. I'm likely to back your KS as it stands. I'm trying to be a voice of caution and reason.

Perry Miniatures humans would likely be the same size or taller as your goblins, unless your goblins are going to be giants in WFB. So, a non-issue. All of the Men-At-Arms (the box I'm using as my example) have single-pose torsos/legs (not split as you're saying yours will be). Separate heads, two arms each, plus alternate arm options (rifles, crossbow, spears) with additional bucklers. The smaller (command) sprue comes with pavises, 2 more bodies, 11 heads, drum and a variety of weapon arms and add-on weapons. So most of the MAA are 4-piece models, not counting the additional details. Yours sound like they will be 5-part.

But you raise a good point here. Do you (or will you) have 3-d prints to show exactly how large the final goblins will be? Proper, scaled size shots with a ruler will be very important.



35%-50% cheaper than GW is not what was being bandied around earlier. 50% is the number that I kept seeing for the kickstarter's early birds - not retail. While I have no doubt that your KS will offer value for money, my concern is that once they hit retail if they are only 25% (again, the number that kept being used) then your investment will fail at retail, or simply be something that people pick up once in a while. Unfortunately, Scarlet Squig seems to have completely lost all sense of objectivity in this thread based on his own personal interest (the Shieldwolf example he gave was awful - their models are literally half the price of GW's and follow the same aesthetic, right down to including one of those silly 2-man spears).

Look, I'm really not trying to be a dick here. I'm likely to back your KS and buy all of the goblins I'll ever need in the campaign at a great price. My concern is what happens post-KS, which is where it's really going to succeed or fail. Pricing figures that don't closely align to the GW aesthetic at GW-25% is a recipe for failure.

I also really think that doing only the goblins in this Kickstarter is the smartest thing to do. Do one thing and do it well. Not all of this "if the campaign does well, we can also HIPS tool the...." stuff. That way leads to nothing but massive delays and worse. Stretch-goal craziness is a bad thing and leads to terrible over-extension. Don't believe me? Ask, oh, say, ANYONE who has run a kickstarter and then tell the backers why yours will be the only one ever that's different. Despite you being a startup while others have had established companies, contacts, supply chain and more.

Now feel welcome to write me off as just some random dumb know-it-all witch on the internet, or the "I know better than you, and everything will be fine" but I've been in this game for at least as long as you have, and I've seen plenty of companies and competitors come and go as well as been a backer of and watched some real trainwrecks of KS projects in the last few years. I hope your project is a great success, but being conservative with the amount of stuff you attempt to produce is going to be the key to that for the KS. Pricing will be a huge factor post-KS.

Nothing insightful or inspired to say, as Clockwork Chaos pretty much spoke my mind for me. I'm pretty strictly sci-fi, but your concepts have me intrigued. I'm no expert, but I also see this KS campaign doing well, provided the sculpts live up to the concepts. I very much look forward to seeing the greens when they're done.

I hope you'll consider some sort of smorgasbord add-on deal for skirmish-oriented gamers. I'll never be looking to buy a large fantasy army, but I could definitely see getting smaller squads from each faction. Your plans definitely fall within my preference range (evil, monsters) - so far I'm interested in every faction that's been discussed and rumored in this thread. Wicked rather than goofy goblins, creative take on the undead . . . excellent stuff. Although for me, the best is yet to come: Lizardmen.

Azazelx, your comments have been taken as intended, constructive assistance. We are going to be as cheap as we can be in the constraints of making some money back on our initial outlay but we will be releasing our skirmish game and mass combat game too. We don't want this to be a flash in the pan range and I want to provide an opportunity for many other gamers to enjoy our models other than just the WFB crowd. We would like people to use our rules but also to use out figures for other rule sets and also RPGs (I know I would love to replace my horde of metal ral patha goblins with something a bit lighter!!). It may well turn out that we can offer even more miniatures in the boxed set. We are still working with pricing etc. I can promise that the minimum number of figures in the boxed set will be 24 and possible as many as 36. The cost of the boxed set will be between 18 and 20 quid. No more.

Sounds good, and if you are planning a mass-battle game with this setting as well, that'd be pretty cool, maybe even enough to get me back into Fantasy mass battle given the awesome art direction.