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Andilus Greatsword, have you got access to the codex? Played with Sisters of Battle? I'm always surprised at the way they are dismissed. First of all they are rarely seen in comparison to any other codex, so I suspect the list of well informed people on this subject is not large. So I do make allowance for that fact and know it plays a part in peoples underestimation of that codex. It makes it no less inaccaurate.

To be clear: you can win, and ABSOLUTELY crush people, using just that codex. Not as an ally. Not WITH allies. JUST IT.

Now the GK Codex is the same way: it seems to play on its own. You have to be okay with jarring losses at times with GK and not be one of these poor sport types that throws their hands up in exasperation with every casualty to play them.

The alternative here is to allow the constant escalation, which it seems the internet has resoundingly condemned over the years. Most players DON'T want uber codex's dropping. If you took and made Wave Serpent Shields 18" or 24" inch range and made it STR 6 all the time, the ENTIRE Eldar Codex would be regarded as just another codex! Really, the Serpent Shield is WHY people cry about that codex and they're not totally unjustified in being incredulous about its range and Ignoring cover but think about it honetly. Does the rest of the codex REALLY scare you so much? No. its a NORMAL, potentially Psyker heavy codex that happens to have this one kinda crazy weapon system in it.

More time is needed for me to play and see if I can "live" with the changes and compete with it, but my recent games seem to indicate that it can beat good armies. Dice are dice but overall I was pretty jazzed about my games thus far.

So what you are saying is that you are a power gamer, who doesn't care about the quality or internal balance or variability inside a codex, being just as happy with a codex because it wins games? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

Let me clear one thing up for you. Nobody is complaining that the new GK dex is too weak. The complaint is that it's too bland and instead of gaining any flavour or build versatility, it lost a bunch of units that could have easily been balanced. Or at least replaced with something new.

This is a legit complaint, without even needing to play a single game with the dex to find out. I don't play GK, however, my disappointment in the amount of effort GW put towards this release is not built off my cares for how well it shapes up against OP dexes like Eldar. This is just a bad codex, power level aside for a second. Allying to open up a new style of build should be an OPTION like it is for other dexes.

 SHUPPET wrote:
So what you are saying is that you are a power gamer, who doesn't care about the quality or internal balance or variability inside a codex, being just as happy with a codex because it wins games? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

Let me clear one thing up for you. Nobody is complaining that the new GK dex is too weak. The complaint is that it's too bland and instead of gaining any flavour or build versatility, it lost a bunch of units that could have easily been balanced. Or at least replaced with something new.

This is a legit complaint, without even needing to play a single game with the dex to find out. I don't play GK, however, my disappointment in the amount of effort GW put towards this release is not built off my cares for how well it shapes up against OP dexes like Eldar. This is just a bad codex, power level aside for a second. Allying to open up a new style of build should be an OPTION like it is for other dexes.

Let me be clear on one thing for you: People ARE actually complaining that its too weak. ACTUALLY. No idea how you can say otherwise, but uh...

Also, I don't recall anyone saying those "power gamer" things you mention. So no. I guess I...didn't...say that I am any of that? I think what I intimated was: stop underestimating your opponents.

And that you don't play GK means you really...dont... know what its like. Fair to say? So your opinion on it is essentially based on what you read in places like this. it's too new for you to know based on "extensive game experience" against it, now isnt it? I've played them. I own it. Ive played them for a long time WITHOUT the Henchman, Coteaz and the whole lot. So I already KNEW it could be done anyways. And now the Codex is what it probably should have been: Grey Knights.

Reminds me of the smug Blood angel guy I faced in the second round of the Ard Boyz tourney with his 4+ FnP and Corbulo craziness vs. my lowly DaemonHunter codex. He took one look at my Daemon Hunters list back then and laughed. Not figuratively, just flat out laughed and said "Well im really sorry you had to face me". I think he left with a different opinion. Him and his disabled Bhaal predator and one scout. Same goes for those who choose to underestimate other codex's or other peoples lists. Theres just a basic level of respect lacking here. Theres this basic lack of appreciation for actual results because everyone wants to believe things for reasons that sound good instead of good sound reasons! I don't understand it. Do I have to win another 100 games to convince you? Would it even matter if I did?

I may come to agree with you after 20 or so games (we'll see), but for now I find little reason to. They in fact unleash IMMENSE amounts of firepower and Psychic power at a time and its kinda impressive to see. You can play catchup in a hurry with them. Thats what my games have been like: Take it to the face for a round, lose some stuff, grunt and grimace a little, fogre forth and then suddenly its like the fourth of July.

Well fair enough on the first half of post, if people are complaining about GK being at one of the weaker levels of overall dexes, then I agree with you, I just haven't seen that yet. It appears to me that most the criticism is of the size of the dex and the amount of versatility in unit choice, which is well founded, and I need not play the dex personally to know just as well as the most experienced GK player in the world, who I'm sure would agree that this dex is quite bland.

The second half in your post I have no idea how to respond to or how it's relevant to me, I never once said GK is a weak dex or won't win games, I actually think its probably one of the strongest races there is right now. Nor did I say they wouldn't be fun to play. Just that they are very limited in the ways that they CAN be played, in comparison to pretty much every dex in the game.

The only problem people have with GK here , is that it went from an army out of one codex, to an army that needs 2 or 3 to be played. If GW decided that GK should be played with purfires in drop pods or with a centurion star, then those unit should have been in the codex and not forced people to buy books.

GW haven't forced you to do anything. Only local players have

The "GK" dex previously was nothing of the sort in 5th - it was boring henchman spam. Yawn.

Now it's actually about GK. And finally assassins are available correctly to other armies. Inquisitors can function without coteaz to get needed troops, etc

From a design standpoint it was all incredibly obvious - the horrible mashup of the old dex has been split to the sensible components, and now each can be explored properly, not hampered by the other.

As a GK player I love the new dex, as if rewards you for..playing GK. Kinda obvious, but that's a good thing

Yes, annoyed at loss of Mordrak, however expect to see him return at some point

Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

yeah Shuppet. I got more options for my IG, because GW removed specials I actualy used and rised the cost of units I was using, so I can no longer play enough of them to make them work properly. So many options.

I've seen this in other places in the boards, but I think it's pretty apt here for why people aren't more vocal about the Grey Knights codex-

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference."

The army may function more competitively on the table, and/or it may be more mono-build, or any of the usual issues people have with new releases. But what makes people not care about this release is the awfulness of it was apparent six months ago. With the unit-slashing and parsing-out of content GW has been doing, it was obvious the Grey Knights codex was going to be the same crappy thing.

The only defense people have is "well I wanted a pure GK army". Cool, so you don't mind paying GW more while they give you less-in-return. You are probably the exception. But I would hazard a guess the layman is less interested in continuing an army whose book content was radically decreased. And hence there is no cry out against GK- because there are many less people now who play the army.

Hurray, Pyrrhic victory for the purists!

Exactly.

People acting as if they couldn't still build a pure GK army if it still had all the models that were removed. Ridiculous thing to be happy about.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.

I actually quite like the new dex, after 6th dropped I shelved my knights. I used a lot of psyfle dreads and Razorbacks before the coming of hull points, so there was no point in running them into a wall against Necron, Tau, and Eldar.

I won't be bringing those units back, but I do have a couple dreadknights and a couple Storm Ravens that I am itching to get back on the table, but more importantly I am foaming at the mouth to run a Draigo Cent star. Grav Cannons where ever I want them sounds just brutal. They seem like a logical ally for my Imperial Fists, I can also run my cheaper terminators in my Spartan Assault Vehicle.

I have been playing my 30k Adeptus Mechanics lately, but I am going to give them a break and ally up my Fists and Knights.

valace2 wrote:
I actually quite like the new dex, after 6th dropped I shelved my knights. I used a lot of psyfle dreads and Razorbacks before the coming of hull points, so there was no point in running them into a wall against Necron, Tau, and Eldar.

I won't be bringing those units back, but I do have a couple dreadknights and a couple Storm Ravens that I am itching to get back on the table, but more importantly I am foaming at the mouth to run a Draigo Cent star. Grav Cannons where ever I want them sounds just brutal. They seem like a logical ally for my Imperial Fists, I can also run my cheaper terminators in my Spartan Assault Vehicle.

I have been playing my 30k Adeptus Mechanics lately, but I am going to give them a break and ally up my Fists and Knights.

I can not tell you how awesomely Imperial Fists and Grey Knights compliment each other. Just ran what you are proposing (I can give you my list if you want) and it worked wonderfully. Absolutely loved the way everything works now.

And as for everything else, to me the GK codex was a pretty good update. It trimmed the fat so to speak. Did GW make mistakes to get here? Yeah, they did but they have been showing a willingness to correct them. This constant railing against them is getting tiring. Do the GK have to rely on allies to be competitive? Yes. Do I care? Nope. It let's me run several different elements of my scattered interests in the Warhammer 40k because a contingent of GK running with a bigger force like Space Marines or Imperial Guard is more fluffy than taking Coteaz and an army of Henchman. That isn't GK. Far from it. Now the army runs like the fluff says it does and it is competitive. This satisfies my interest in the game both from a playing the tabletop to my interest in the fluff. That is my opinion and there is nothing that anyone has said against this that is going to change that opinion. I can kind of the complaints but some of these aren't as valid as others. I am also willing to give GW a bit of leeway here because they have been shaping up their act. The last days of 6th was having me considering hanging up the hobby but the release of 7th and everything has me thoroughly enjoying the game again.

They're saving all of their energy to complain about this month's Dark Eldar release?

I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

Is that a counter to his argument or just a dig at him personally?

I think peoples complaints about the changes to GKs are based on either not knowing about the GKs fluff or just not caring. THEE only thing that GKs do is fight demons. ONLY. In the old fluff, if your opponent had no demons you COULDNT DEPLOY THEM. Seriously. if the other player didn't put demons on the table you simply lost out on hundreds of points. The idea that they don't do well versus orks or tau is entirely in keeping with the fluff. Also in the fluff is/was the idea that GKs don't play well with others. To keep themselves secret they mind rape or MURDER their allys. Assassins are an entirely separate force. The Ordo Malleus doesn't own the GKs. There close ally's with a similar duty, not bonded together in any real way. And who knows how many Inquisitors or Jr Inquisitors they've murdered to keep themselves more secret than the Dark Angels big secret.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.

When the Inquisition were cut from the Sisters codex, I rejoiced. Finally, we were our own army again, respectable and independent!

The situation is slightly different because Grey Knights have always been tied into the Inquisition rather than having it shoe-horned in, but I think the same kind of feeling can be explored. Welcome to independence, baby codex.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
When the Inquisition were cut from the Sisters codex, I rejoiced. Finally, we were our own army again, respectable and independent!

The situation is slightly different because Grey Knights have always been tied into the Inquisition rather than having it shoe-horned in, but I think the same kind of feeling can be explored. Welcome to independence, baby codex.

This is much of the same with the Grey Knights, especially considering both the book fluff and the Black Library fluff. Grey Knights are connected to but not ruled by the Inquisition.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.

As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.

As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?

Saying "you're being ripped off" and saying "You're an idiot for enjoying the game" are two different things. People are saying the former, not the latter.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.

As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?

Saying "you're being ripped off" and saying "You're an idiot for enjoying the game" are two different things. People are saying the former, not the latter.

They're saying the former and implying the latter. Its pretty obvious

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I just don't care enough about the GK release to say much. It's boring, watered down, half the choices cut out and pirce raised. That seems to be GW's new MO now.
If you like paying more for less, sure. Have a blast.

Didnt you quit the last 4 codices anyways?

I don't even know what that sentence means, but I was replying to "they're saving their whining for the upcoming DE release." Stop putting one dimensional villain masks on people that don't agree with you.

As opposed to the constant subtle "If you actually enjoy it you're an idiot" stance for those that disagree with those that like it?

Saying "you're being ripped off" and saying "You're an idiot for enjoying the game" are two different things. People are saying the former, not the latter.

They're saying the former and implying the latter. Its pretty obvious

I'm saying the former and meaning the former. If someone is implying the latter then they're wrong. No one has a right to tell someone what they can and can't enjoy.
But don't be quick to see offense where none is meant. If someone criticizes 40k, don't take it as a personal attack. I like plenty of stuff that is crap. Like the movie "Pathfinder." Horrible movie but I love it. However, I see that it has problems and don't pretend they don't exist.

 Jancoran wrote:
Andilus Greatsword, have you got access to the codex? Played with Sisters of Battle? I'm always surprised at the way they are dismissed. First of all they are rarely seen in comparison to any other codex, so I suspect the list of well informed people on this subject is not large. So I do make allowance for that fact and know it plays a part in peoples underestimation of that codex. It makes it no less inaccaurate.

To be clear: you can win, and ABSOLUTELY crush people, using just that codex. Not as an ally. Not WITH allies. JUST IT.

Now the GK Codex is the same way: it seems to play on its own. You have to be okay with jarring losses at times with GK and not be one of these poor sport types that throws their hands up in exasperation with every casualty to play them.

The alternative here is to allow the constant escalation, which it seems the internet has resoundingly condemned over the years. Most players DON'T want uber codex's dropping. If you took and made Wave Serpent Shields 18" or 24" inch range and made it STR 6 all the time, the ENTIRE Eldar Codex would be regarded as just another codex! Really, the Serpent Shield is WHY people cry about that codex and they're not totally unjustified in being incredulous about its range and Ignoring cover but think about it honetly. Does the rest of the codex REALLY scare you so much? No. its a NORMAL, potentially Psyker heavy codex that happens to have this one kinda crazy weapon system in it.

More time is needed for me to play and see if I can "live" with the changes and compete with it, but my recent games seem to indicate that it can beat good armies. Dice are dice but overall I was pretty jazzed about my games thus far.

I'll admit I haven't read the GK Codex yet, so I'm more basing info on what I've heard and how some of their more interesting things were removed (Inquisition could totally change a GK list and added whole other dimensions to the list-building process). I'm not so concerned about its strength level as I don't play as or against GK outside of the very rare pickup game, but my point is that their options have been reduced significantly. It's the same sort of problem I have with the Nids codex, although in that case it's more because the options they have are mostly utter trash, leading to mono-builds.

But as for Sisters, I know they're powerful, I actually love their current Codex. I don't understand why everyone says they're lower-tier, it's like they've never seen the rules. However, it never-the-less lacks options just from the physical lack of units that GW has given us to play with. It basically boils down to spamming special weapons, ideally through MSUs in transports imho (in fact, I'm starting a small Sisters force based around this philosophy).

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I'll admit I haven't read the GK Codex yet, so I'm more basing info on what I've heard and how some of their more interesting things were removed (Inquisition could totally change a GK list and added whole other dimensions to the list-building process). I'm not so concerned about its strength level as I don't play as or against GK outside of the very rare pickup game, but my point is that their options have been reduced significantly. It's the same sort of problem I have with the Nids codex, although in that case it's more because the options they have are mostly utter trash, leading to mono-builds.

But as for Sisters, I know they're powerful, I actually love their current Codex. I don't understand why everyone says they're lower-tier, it's like they've never seen the rules. However, it never-the-less lacks options just from the physical lack of units that GW has given us to play with. It basically boils down to spamming special weapons, ideally through MSUs in transports imho (in fact, I'm starting a small Sisters force based around this philosophy).

I can agree that the options were numerically reduced, but you can play with the same stuff using the Codex: Inquisition with very little difference in the list. So the book makes more sense being on its own now andf i think that was GW's thought too: we sell more codex: Inquisition by doing it and we make the actual codex ABOUT grey Knights instead of about this Henchman shenanigan. We Hi-lite the things that are Grey Knights and we diminish those that aren't yet the option to include that stuff is still there.

The TO's are slowly realizing that multiple detachments just is the way it's going to be. militarum Tempestus actually kinda started that revolution going but Grey Knights cinched it. 2015 will be the year of the Multiple Detachment forces and I really haven't seen enough compelling abuse, other than flying Daemon Circus lists, to really worry me...and even those lists were pretty much already uber with just allies, so whether it swings the pendulum much is debatable to say the least.

Yeah we'll see, it seems to be the philosophy of 40k these days. My group largely does 1 FOC with allies being taken a minority of the time, but as I said, none of us play GK. I'm not sure what point level you'd have to be playing at where more than 1 CAD is really necessary, I usually play around 2k and don't really see much of a need for it - YMMV of course.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I'll admit I haven't read the GK Codex yet, so I'm more basing info on what I've heard and how some of their more interesting things were removed (Inquisition could totally change a GK list and added whole other dimensions to the list-building process). I'm not so concerned about its strength level as I don't play as or against GK outside of the very rare pickup game, but my point is that their options have been reduced significantly. It's the same sort of problem I have with the Nids codex, although in that case it's more because the options they have are mostly utter trash, leading to mono-builds.

But as for Sisters, I know they're powerful, I actually love their current Codex. I don't understand why everyone says they're lower-tier, it's like they've never seen the rules. However, it never-the-less lacks options just from the physical lack of units that GW has given us to play with. It basically boils down to spamming special weapons, ideally through MSUs in transports imho (in fact, I'm starting a small Sisters force based around this philosophy).

I can agree that the options were numerically reduced, but you can play with the same stuff using the Codex: Inquisition with very little difference in the list. So the book makes more sense being on its own now andf i think that was GW's thought too: we sell more codex: Inquisition by doing it and we make the actual codex ABOUT grey Knights instead of about this Henchman shenanigan. We Hi-lite the things that are Grey Knights and we diminish those that aren't yet the option to include that stuff is still there.

The TO's are slowly realizing that multiple detachments just is the way it's going to be. militarum Tempestus actually kinda started that revolution going but Grey Knights cinched it. 2015 will be the year of the Multiple Detachment forces and I really haven't seen enough compelling abuse, other than flying Daemon Circus lists, to really worry me...and even those lists were pretty much already uber with just allies, so whether it swings the pendulum much is debatable to say the least.

I partially blame the Henchman lists for the separation in the first place. What was the point in taking a codex about the GK if you were going to side track that and go for Coteaz and his Henchman anyway? It left a large portion of the codex out so what did GW do, streamline the process by giving separate codices. The GK are no less viable than they were and imo, they are more viable in their current form and I have had great success with making lists for them. GK now have the most cost effective Terminators in game, have an awesome MC, Draigo is back with a vengeance, arguably one of the best ML3 Psykers (Farseer is good but GK Librarian wins in the psychic defense game) in game, Purifiers are still awesome, maybe a bit more awesome because of soul blaze being attached to all the incinerators and cleansing flame and Interceptors are still worth their points. Do I miss psybolts? Yeah but I am kind of thinking it was a point sink anyway with the performance I have been getting out of lately. The thing I miss the most is storm bolters to rear armor and not being as affected by T5 as much but other than that, my army seems to be able to function quite well without it. I miss Mordrak but they gave his power to the entire army so you don't have to take a certain unit to Alpha Strike it. Stream lined the codex to be the Deep Striking army of the game. Did I mention we have soul blaze now?

So I am not upset by this, rather I am happy about it. I remember not to long ago when I would come here and ask what is a good GK list and someone would give me a list that was pure Henchman and Coteaz without a single GK in it. Are people that surprised when they decided to split the codices? And it has been drifting towards this for a while and the writing is on the wall, GW wants to encourage allies where allies should be and giving autonomy to codices where it is appropriate and I like this fluff addition.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because removing options completely is better than just balancing them properly! Great logic!

Sigh. More strawman fallacy I see.

Not at all what I said, but hey, qq all you want. The codex is better off one than previously, as a concept. It's now actually GK, not coteaz and friends.

Really? Because as a concept, a product that Games Workshop wants me to purchase at $50 USD, it fails. It has much less content and deleted the capabilities of playing my army in a reasonable fashion. And no, the hand wave of "Unbound" means you've already failed any sort of reason or logic.

Sorry, you can have all Inquisition, Assassins, and Grey Knights in one book and still offer all three as individual items. Then that's the best of both worlds for all players. Not reducing options, deleting stuff, and then charging triple the price to get it all back.