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Super Newb wrote:
IBut I am not going to comment on my correction of Mordrak's rules anymore. Because this is well beyond ridiculous right now. Good day.

Pretty much this. Lol.

Ok, in a feeble attempt to get back on what was supposed to be the topic of this thread.

They are a multitude of reasons for the lack of "The World Is Ending Treads" I people weather they recognize it is Consistent Patterns are starting to emerge and most people like consistency.
The Codex's are getting better: Not more Powerful, but since Codex: Space Marines they have mostly with come with lots of balance, both internally and externally with a few exceptions. Those being TauDar and Nids.
TauDar: Got hit with no longer being Battle-Brothers
Nids: Just has a series of fails, but can still be comparative.
Most of the new Codex's have addressed and issue or two, sometimes removing characters and sometimes adding some.
The main issue was overpriced Units, for the most part they have been doing a good job of that.
The other is Air Defense. Most of them added a Flyer or ground based Anti-Aircraft-Artillery or AAA. They all tend to be a little underwhelming and the major complaint has been a lack of Interceptor. However if you look at all of them, none of them have it so people are starting to see that is the new Norm.

Then you com to the Inquisition which now gives 4 Codex's in most peoples eyes, Sister of Battle, Inquisition, Grey Knights and Assassins.
Three of them are only available in Electronic Format only [This is a truly worthy complaint], though all of them have a prevision allowing you to make one physical copy for yourself.
Codex: Grey Knight though did their best to address their issues, but not all of them.
One was had become a watered down Codex where most people were nor playing Grey Knights and thus not buying Models and an Electronic Inquisition Codex was already in existence that was basically the 5th Edition Codex: Grey Knights without Grey Knights. When it came to Making a new Codex: Grey Knights there was no Need to put in Inquisition forces, especially with the new 7th Edition FOC/Allies System. Now why they removed Character I will not know, but with their No Model/No Rules policy I can see why, it was just easier than coming up with new models. To be honest, Grey Knights did not need new Models.
Two Lack of AAA. it would have been nice to get the Stalker/Hunter, but I agree with most it did not fit Grey Knights and with Allies, they did not need to. Them not getting a Air Superiority Fighter, the same is true and the Stormtalon does not fit with all of their Vehicles [other than walkers] are troop Transports. The Stormraven also make a good Air Superiority Fighter, more like a P-47 Thunderbolt than a P-51 Mustang, but still good.
Also a lot of Grey Knight Players [Notice the lack of Codex: Grey Knights] feel like it is a Grey Knight Codex. It is Balanced both Internally and Externally. They now play like Grey Knights should, a Small Elite Fast Moving Deep Striking Terminator Heavy Army.

Could they have added more, yes, but What?
Terminators in all FOC Slots?
Special Dreadnaught?
Jet Bikes?
All of those would have been nice, but they can all be replicated by either going unbound or with Allies.

... the Inquisition has basically been removed from its involvement with the Sororitas. It would seem that they are no longer the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they simply "work closely together"... but that's only a minor part of the issues with the SOB.

 Psienesis wrote:
... the Inquisition has basically been removed from its involvement with the Sororitas. It would seem that they are no longer the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they simply "work closely together"... but that's only a minor part of the issues with the SOB.

Yes I know , but only us few of us know/acknowledge that.

The codex is NOT balanced internally, the only slot that could be argued for is the Elite slot, which ironically is also the LEAST contested slot because we have up to 4 units in it.

Externally... yes I could see that being true, once a pass over Eldar has been made even though it isn't a ridiculous stomp like TauDar was.

HQ we already know who we are taking
Troop we already know who is better in point efficiency. Only reason to take PAGK is to go double CAD and have 4 Dreadknights.
HS we already know who we are taking
FA MOST of the time Stormraven will be taken competitively because it is our AA, doesn't stop me from doubling down on Interceptors.

Elites are really the only place in the codex we have a semblance of actual flavorful choice that remains competitive.

 Psienesis wrote:
... the Inquisition has basically been removed from its involvement with the Sororitas. It would seem that they are no longer the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they simply "work closely together"... but that's only a minor part of the issues with the SOB.

So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
The codex is NOT balanced internally, the only slot that could be argued for is the Elite slot, which ironically is also the LEAST contested slot because we have up to 4 units in it.

Externally... yes I could see that being true, once a pass over Eldar has been made even though it isn't a ridiculous stomp like TauDar was.

HQ we already know who we are taking
Troop we already know who is better in point efficiency. Only reason to take PAGK is to go double CAD and have 4 Dreadknights.
HS we already know who we are taking
FA MOST of the time Stormraven will be taken competitively because it is our AA, doesn't stop me from doubling down on Interceptors.

Elites are really the only place in the codex we have a semblance of actual flavorful choice that remains competitive.

I will say that although liking the new codex, you have a point. There is a set way to take GK. For HS, Nemesis Dreadknights all day long. You will never see a Purgation squad on the table. Troops are pretty much going to be Terminators or maybe some cheap GKSS for someone running a Purifier army. Other codices do have more options but I feel like this is how GW wanted to go anyway. They were essentially making an army that is specialized in Deep Striking and the GK most certainly do it the best. So list building might be boring but you at least get an effective army is the one take away from this.

So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?

Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.

What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.

 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.

Problem with Purgation Squads is that Purifier squads do the same thing as them, thus giving the slot to Dreadknights. I would be interested in Purgation squads if they were moved in say... Troop slot.

 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.

Which would make them non-viable, no? If the unit they compete against for that slot is an auto-include, then the Purgation squad simply might as well not exist.

Quickjager wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.

Problem with Purgation Squads is that Purifier squads do the same thing as them, thus giving the slot to Dreadknights. I would be interested in Purgation squads if they were moved in say... Troop slot.

Then they would compete with Strike Squads.
Not everyone plays with three Dreadknights.
The only real issue I have with them that they have Night Fighting witch is useless most of the time.
It is also depends on how you use them, just one 5 man squad in a Razorback or ADL with a Quad Gun in a good place for them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
What I meant by balanced is there is not really any bad units. Every unit in the Codex is viable and can be used.
Yes there are some that are not as cost effective as others, but they are for the most part equal to any other unit out there.
As for Purgation Squads I think they have a spot, I would field them if I had some, but I think everyone just looked at the Dreadknight and never looked at anything else.

Which would make them non-viable, no? If the unit they compete against for that slot is an auto-include, then the Purgation squad simply might as well not exist.

One Dreadknight is an Auto-Take for me, but not 3.

 Psienesis wrote:

So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?

Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.

But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.

 Envihon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?

Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.

But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.

True, they were not as good as they were, but is can still some uses for them. I will have to play test them a few times before tossing them aside. I still would like a Squad of them, for completeness sake if anything else.
Also Every Codex has one Unit that is not as good as the others and Purgation Squad seem to be that, but one unit does not make the Internal Balance within a Codex an issue, even one with this few units.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?

Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.

But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.

True, they were not as good as they were, but is can still some uses for them. I will have to play test them a few times before tossing them aside. I still would like a Squad of them, for completeness sake if anything else.
Also Every Codex has one Unit that is not as good as the others and Purgation Squad seem to be that, but one unit does not make the Internal Balance within a Codex an issue, even one with this few units.

That is true. I really like the Purgation Squads too. I always thought that Astral Aim was an awesome ability. It is a shame that they have just become a glorified GKSS that can take more heavy weapons. I don't think we will see our Dreadnoughts being fielded anytime soon either. The loss of psybolt ammo hit them hard and they are basically as good as any other SM Dreadnought now. It is a shame really.

That being said, I don't think the GK codex is as cut and dry as some have made it but I do think there are two distinctive styles of play now. Nemesis Strike Force utilizing deep strike and the shunt or the Purifier spam known from last edition with options to stick them in tin cans and run them over or utilizing the allies matrix to take SW allies and drop pod the Purifiers in.

 Envihon wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

So wait, they did something similar to the Grey Knights. Are the moving away from having a Chamber Militant for the three major branches? What would that make Death Watch then?

Dunno, but it would appear to be the case (IRT Chamber Militants). If they ever have a Codex: Deathwatch or Codex: Ordo Xenos, I suppose we'll find out. As it currently stands, the DW is the only Chamber Militant still directly attached to the =I=. Though, with more and more information coming out about that Chapter, they may get set apart and get the "but works closely with" line that the Sisters got.

But would that be possible. I can understand why the GKs got released from the Inquisition and almost can see the same for the Sisters but aren't the DW Marines directly commissioned by the Inquisition to serve under them? I don't know much about them so I don't know if they have a command structure like the GK and the Sisters that exist outside of the Inquisition.

And, yeah, Purgation Squads lost their usefulness once they lost Astral Aim. They aren't like the Devastators of SM who get actual long range heavy weapons so they can sit in the backfield behind cover and shoot. The 24" range on a squad like that is limiting and you can no long put them out of line of sight to pull off what they did with Astral Aim. Unless I am trying to get the Brotherhood detachment, I probably would never take a Purgation squad ever again because Dreadknights are that much better. With the Nemesis Strike Force only having two HS spots in the first place, I would rather fill that with a unit that can use it's heavy weapons effectively.

True, they were not as good as they were, but is can still some uses for them. I will have to play test them a few times before tossing them aside. I still would like a Squad of them, for completeness sake if anything else.
Also Every Codex has one Unit that is not as good as the others and Purgation Squad seem to be that, but one unit does not make the Internal Balance within a Codex an issue, even one with this few units.

That is true. I really like the Purgation Squads too. I always thought that Astral Aim was an awesome ability. It is a shame that they have just become a glorified GKSS that can take more heavy weapons. I don't think we will see our Dreadnoughts being fielded anytime soon either. The loss of psybolt ammo hit them hard and they are basically as good as any other SM Dreadnought now. It is a shame really.

That being said, I don't think the GK codex is as cut and dry as some have made it but I do think there are two distinctive styles of play now. Nemesis Strike Force utilizing deep strike and the shunt or the Purifier spam known from last edition with options to stick them in tin cans and run them over or utilizing the allies matrix to take SW allies and drop pod the Purifiers in.

The Dreadnaught is not as bad as they look. Yes we did loose S8 Auto-Cannons, but they can still pull off a 6++ Save and add a Warp Charge. I do have two thoughts on how to use them.
>Sky-Shield Landing Pad: Put him on there with Shields up and with Sanctuary pull off a 3++ Save.
>Stormraven Assault: Just unleashed him with a Close Combat load out along with Purifiers and Crowe followed by 3 Cleansing Flames and an Assault.

Huh, that Stormraven assault is an interesting way to play them allowing for a delivery method for the Purifiers and giving some armor to help out the Purifiers. I would love to hear if that would work. I might take some Purifiers in my next game.