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 Flippa wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
These models do definately not look level 4.

I would just ask them to refund me the difference between these level 2/3 models and the level 4-6 you paid for.

Also you sigh after every sentence and it is really annoying to watch, especially if you do it 46 fething minutes long.

Seriously? You can bet your bottom $ I would be sighing too if I'd spent a few K$ on that. I've watched the vid a couple of times now and even showed it to gamer friends, who are agreed, it is such a waste to see such fantastic models painted that way.

Sorry, I have no clue how much he paid for the army itself... hence the question.

 Chute82 wrote:

Bora77 wrote:
PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.

He says in the video that the painting cost 4x what he paid for the army.

TY Chute82 4x the cost Bora77, I haven't been on the FW website to work it out exactly but it's deffo a few K$

About the only good thing I see about the Paypal dispute period being changed to 6 month is the ability to automatically apply to get your money back if it doesn't arrive as scheduled or is SNAD. With an established business like this, they likely can't afford to just close down their paypal payment like new swap shop or ebay scammers do so you can put a hold on your money and actually likely have a chance to get it back if things go south.

I wonder if they'll stop taking paypal for that reason now.

He said he paid 2k for the army and 4x times the army cost for painting.



Edited: I guess my math is still bad as it was in High School

 swampyturtle wrote:
He said he paid 2k for the army and 4x times the army cost for painting.

Math says that's 8k total spent on this fiasco

2k+(4 x 2k) =/= 8k....

 CptJake wrote:

 swampyturtle wrote:
He said he paid 2k for the army and 4x times the army cost for painting.

Math says that's 8k total spent on this fiasco

2k+(4 x 2k) =/= 8k....

10k then.

This is why i am not a math person.

 Ouze wrote:
And they sort of all look pretty terrible. I mean, what you got seems pretty good relative to what they claim to sell. Even the highest levels offered aren't particularly great to my eye.

It seems to look very hit or miss for me. The level 6's have some parts good, but some parts are just plain or simpley meh. Level 5's look like high level tabletop quality at best, and tabletop quality at worst.

The basing is the worst part. All of it is lackluster.

Really, you can't even begin to compare them with what other studios produce. I think winterdyne's tabletop quality is better than their level 5 or 6.

Bora77 wrote:
PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.

the estimates presented by many others are close

I paid for the models myself separately and sent them. So that I paid for BT service only

I dont say how much because i was horrifically embarrassed at what i paid for what I got.

Why don't you just say how much it was? I mean, what they charged for what they delivered is salient, and their failure to deliver doesn't really reflect on you.

There's not any kind of NDA or anything is there?

It's not really our business, though, is it?

My guess is he paid $8,600.00 + Shawn's special 2% rush fee = $8,772.00.

 Ouze wrote:
Why don't you just say how much it was? I mean, what they charged for what they delivered is salient, and their failure to deliver doesn't really reflect on you.

There's not any kind of NDA or anything is there?

Coldfire is close a little high but close.

I dont like to discuss the money because then i get private messages attacking me for being so stupid to pay that much. (I have already received such messages)

That amount seemed reasonable for the level of army I was requesting.

So, minus the rush fee then. Lucky break.

That's obviously pretty steep, but if you would have gotten what you wanted then this would have been an army for the ages.

 curran12 wrote:
It's not really our business, though, is it?

It becomes salient in terms of advice. If he paid $900, no one would suggest litigation, if he paid $9,000, we can't suggest small claims court. Also, it's a lot easier to say "cut your losses" if he's out a couple of hundred dollars vs a couple of thousand dollars.

Finally, it seems one of the OP's goals is to establish BTP doesn't offer good value, and that kind of goes hand and hand with that - but I ask for the former reason.

I would definitely alert a mod about any rude messages OP got, that is ridiculous.

I charge (successfuly, satisfactorily) between £175 and £250 for a 10 man space marine squad, to high end tabletop standard.

People really don't get how much work is involved in decent commission painting. It's a laborious process, and (per hour) the money is not good.

I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army. If you have a full inventory, it might be fun for me to give a ball park of what I'd charge and an approximate, high end tabletop turnaround. My ball park figures are (after a few years in the game) getting pretty accurate for the most part.

I do think you didn't get what you were promised - not even close. Basic work should be sold as basic work. High end work as high end. All this talk of 'levels' and 'passes' is frankly a load of bollocks, and is deliberately confusing. Think about the job, quote for the job. If you get it wrong, next time adjust your quote. That's how the game works.

Edit: I don't know about the US, but in the UK small claims courts can rule on matters up to £100k.

For what should have been a high level commission that price seems fine to be honest.

For the quality of the work though, that is another matter altogether..
It seems like someone ran through the basic details, hit it with a drybrush then hit it with the airbrush to finish them off.

Not only is the painting sloppy, the communication was even worse.
Now, when a companies reputation is built from their work, you would think service to the customer is the top priority.

I just hope they send you some form of apology for this. (preferably in a $$$ value)

 Jackal wrote:
For what should have been a high level commission that price seems fine to be honest.

For the quality of the work though, that is another matter altogether..

No. It's a huge job. Eyeballing it, I'd guess around double ($16k) with almost a year turnaround, full time work to what I call 'high end tabletop'. (Most GW cabinet / WD display armies, not 'EM single piece work).

winterdyne wrote:
Sucks, dude. BTP don't have a good rep, why'd you use them?

When did blue table paint stop having a good rep? I'd have used them for years and no problems. Now having said that I havent used them in the last 3 years at least.

Just watched the video.

Tenbre,
You were way to easy on them. I heard "It's nice but" or "It looks cool, but…" so many times I could almost lipsync along with you. Just come out and say what we all see, that the models are so far below the level of what was paid for that it's either gross negligence, incompetence, dishonesty or some combination thereof. Hope you get at least a refund for these models since none of them seem to be at the level you paid for.

Also, there's no reason it had to be 46 minutes long, but most you-tube hobbyist gaming videos are far longer than necessary, so it's just running with the pack.

Above all, thanks also for warning the community. You've provided a very valuable service. I've heard rumblings about these guys for quite a while, but your video shows that they are close (if not completely over) the line of scamming.

After watching their videos, it looks like you got a level 2 for the most part, and a 3 on some others (like the vehicles). You might have actually accidentally gotten a level 4 job on the sexy slave girls or whatever.

winterdyne wrote:
I charge (successfuly, satisfactorily) between £175 and £250 for a 10 man space marine squad, to high end tabletop standard.

People really don't get how much work is involved in decent commission painting. It's a laborious process, and (per hour) the money is not good.

I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army. If you have a full inventory, it might be fun for me to give a ball park of what I'd charge and an approximate, high end tabletop turnaround. My ball park figures are (after a few years in the game) getting pretty accurate for the most part.

I do think you didn't get what you were promised - not even close. Basic work should be sold as basic work. High end work as high end. All this talk of 'levels' and 'passes' is frankly a load of bollocks, and is deliberately confusing. Think about the job, quote for the job. If you get it wrong, next time adjust your quote. That's how the game works.

Edit: I don't know about the US, but in the UK small claims courts can rule on matters up to £100k.

Doesnt help people's perception when some random tit always comes in saying that he won golden demon after speed painting his entry in 20 minutes and other such BS claims. Many people seem to lie to themselves and others about how long it takes to paint things. (GMM studio and a few others not withstanding, Brandon is insanely fast)

carmachu wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Sucks, dude. BTP don't have a good rep, why'd you use them?

When did blue table paint stop having a good rep? I'd have used them for years and no problems. Now having said that I havent used them in the last 3 years at least.

They were having questionable reports about quality when I went full time which was about 4 or 5 years ago. At that point I actually was referring people to them that wanted lower budget work doing.

After that, further 'not quite as good as they say, but OK for the money' kept creeping in, with the occasional report of poor communication - understandable as the number of projects increases. I started to get clients asking for remedial work (which I don't do).

The issue of them offering high end work without being able to follow through has continued to grow - Shawn is extremely (and to me annoyingly) gushing about the work he presents - which if the work was better would be great!

But this in-your-face sales banter now leads to a false representation in the client's eyes - they listen and think they'll get something in the high-end-tabletop / display capable niche* like GMM, Garden Ninja, Myself at a fraction of the cost or at much lower wait.

This simply can't happen; but clients don't tend to see it. If it takes a skilled painter 3 hours to paint a model, they're going to want around £25 to paint it, at UK minimum wage, including a little bit for materials.This is the raw, bottom line truth of it.
A service is a service to make money; there are few that do it purely for the love of it - the demands of rent, food, survival, family all add up. I harp on this line all the time, but very few people (except the commission painters who learn it at the sharp end) seem to take it on board.

Bluntly, for a client: Expect to pay a living wage for the country your service is in.
Expect the service to be able to tell you roughly how many hours they think the job will take (averaging down to a per-model rate on units). If it seems stupid, chances are it is.
Check that the quote matches the expected working time. If it's very low in comparison, expect problems. If it's very high, think about why - is it high standard work? Is the scheme difficult? Did you ask for conversions or parts to be bought? Is there a shedload of brass etch to buy?

Anyway, back to the question - BTP's reputation as I've heard of them now is as pretty much a bog-standard service, being over (zealously) sold, with poor communications, confusing pricing structure and delusions of better quality than they actually produce.

They did at one point have some very good painters working for them; but in a field like this that doesn't last long unless appropriate prices are being charged for appropriate level work (to the artist as well as the client). They weren't.

*: I hope the painters I've named don't mind me labelling them as such, and I hope I don't seem arrogant to include myself in their company; both are extremely talented (Brandon, I hate you ;p) established services who I've heard nothing bad about.. There are of course also many other painters in this niche, but these two spring to mind first when I think of the 'high end tabletop' concept. Awaken Realms, YourWellPaintedArmy are both hot incoming services who look to be shaping up very well indeed.

I know several people who have done commissions with BTP and come away with models that were expensive and underwhelming.

Kudos to the op for restraint and reason. These concerns make sense and are things that are valuable to the community.

One question I have for the OP is, given there was no bulk discount, why spend the money to do the entire army all at once? Why not commission a single unit first so you can understand the services?

Winterdyne, you raise some good issues. That's the kind of in formation all potential buyers should know. However they really are beside the point as relates to the OP's problem.

Only germane point is this:

BTP agreed to a price for a certain level of product. They have their money, but the customer did not receive a corresponding product.

That said, I do agree about BTP's reputation. There's plenty of folks singing their praises, but if you search around there's enough reports of folks paying more and getting less to steer clear of them.

The video said at level 5 there will be "absolutely no slops".

I can attest to that being false from a level 5 hero that they painted, if you didn't notice that orc's eye slopped onto his cheek as he was saying it. I know this is an aside to the current discussion but I just had to point that out...

On a professionally done paintjob there shouldn't be any 'slops' anyway. A detail should either be painted, or not (and if not, the rule of 'if it's not important, paint it black' goes a long way). A highlight should be applied, or not.

Flaws should be minimal (perhaps a wash pool if it doesn't detract from the finish, maybe rougher transitions on blends/gradients) and in general a factor of the budget - faster methods are required to hit lower budget jobs. This does not give carte blanche to 'paint outside the lines' as it were.

winterdyne wrote:


They were having questionable reports about quality when I went full time which was about 4 or 5 years ago. At that point I actually was referring people to them that wanted lower budget work doing.

After that, further 'not quite as good as they say, but OK for the money' kept creeping in, with the occasional report of poor communication - understandable as the number of projects increases. I started to get clients asking for remedial work (which I don't do).

Fair enough. Sounds about slightly after I stopped playing with painted models or playing regularly. I always got table top quality(which is all I ever ordered).

But this in-your-face sales banter now leads to a false representation in the client's eyes - they listen and think they'll get something in the high-end-tabletop / display capable niche* like GMM, Garden Ninja, Myself at a fraction of the cost or at much lower wait.

Who is GMM?

They did at one point have some very good painters working for them; but in a field like this that doesn't last long unless appropriate prices are being charged for appropriate level work (to the artist as well as the client). They weren't.

Oh I know they did. I know and am friends with one of those good painters. but she hasnt painted for them in more then a few years. No idea if it was fall out or just that she's moved on to other things she wanted to do. Pretty sure its the later.

carmachu wrote:


Who is GMM?

A top notch army painter.

winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.

The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.

The quality of these is more if I asked some kid at my local club who is looking to make some money in order to buy more plastic crack to paint me some models when I know they won't come out awesome but I don't have the time to do them myself. It's not even in the realm of what I expect professional painters to do.

It looks like there's ~120 infantry models, 5 or so war machines, maybe ~10 small monsters/cav sized models and half a dozen larger monsters. If I try and imagine what the time/effort would be, I'd say maybe the equivalent of 200 infantry sized models? So about $40 per infantry model averaged over the army? At that price you'd expect, what, around 3 hours per model from a mildly skilled painter and maybe 4 from a reasonably unskilled painter? (trying to think US prices where the minimum wage is much lower than it is here ).

So at 3-4 hours per model... yeah, I think you overpaid a bit. The bigger problem to me is that it's a HUGE investment for the army, around $10000 Given the investment and the advertised quality from BTP, I think you have the right to feel cheated on that and expect some recompense. If it were at the start of the project and the OP was asking for advice, sure, I'd tell them they should just pay a bit more and get them painted elsewhere.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
I don't think you've overpaid for what you've got, really. I've not counted, but I do know that I wouldn't be giving you much if any change out of $500 for one of those big land-train mortar things, and that there are a heck of a lot of models in this army.

The difference is you would never paint to quality that low to begin with A lot of commission painters with reputations on Dakka wouldn't touch such low quality. So it's difficult to make a comparison on price.

Also - that's your pricing. Not BTPs. If they're charging for showcase quality what you'd charge for tabletop quality, that's simply them charging less. It doesn't lower the expected delivered quality.