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 rexscarlet wrote:
Are GW UK and GW US separate?
How about GW and Citadel Miniatures, are they separate?
How about GW Retail Stores and GW Online Web-store, are they separate?
.
We have all seen the manipulations of the GW P&L, so nothing new, just quickly catching up with them.
.
Why I never bought GW penny Stock...
.
I bought 10k worth of this stock instead five years ago when it was at 11.5; https://www.google.com/search?q=pepco+stock&oq=pepco+stock&aqs=chrome..69i57.3507j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

They're not separately listed on the exchanges; I bought some GW stock years ago, sold in January for a tidy profit while it was sliding, and had to convert my Dollars to GBP.

Nice find with Pepco; I bought Citibank at a $1 when the recession caused it to tank; granted there's been a reverse stock split since but I'm happy with where they are.

Nice find with Pepco; I bought Citibank at a $1 when the recession caused it to tank; granted there's been a reverse stock split since but I'm happy with where they are.

Yep, similar with Telephone de Mexico, split, then changed to cellular, etc.
.
Take a gander at boxes; http://collector-info.com/Manufacturer.html
High Elves are the most complete on site; GW and Citadel...

 agnosto wrote:

 rexscarlet wrote:
Are GW UK and GW US separate?
How about GW and Citadel Miniatures, are they separate?
How about GW Retail Stores and GW Online Web-store, are they separate?
.
We have all seen the manipulations of the GW P&L, so nothing new, just quickly catching up with them.
.
Why I never bought GW penny Stock...
.
I bought 10k worth of this stock instead five years ago when it was at 11.5; https://www.google.com/search?q=pepco+stock&oq=pepco+stock&aqs=chrome..69i57.3507j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

They're not separately listed on the exchanges; I bought some GW stock years ago, sold in January for a tidy profit while it was sliding, and had to convert my Dollars to GBP.

Nice find with Pepco; I bought Citibank at a $1 when the recession caused it to tank; granted there's been a reverse stock split since but I'm happy with where they are.

GW only Trades as a whole on the UK exchange. They do however have a number of registered entities including GWUS and GWUS (Holdings) that are still current and un-dissolved all trading under the UK umbrella.

GW needs to change things or the next half year report will show an even bigger loss in sales.. One of the things that have stayed constant the last few years is the declne in sales.. And I dont get why people are still trying to defend and justify the direction this is going in..

I watched a movie a few days ago its called the "Big Fan". And sadly I think some of you are acting just like the main protagonist. The Company you love has beaten you over the head, but still you cant stop cheering for it.. At this point it is just starting to get sad.. Stop being victims and stop buying GW miniatures, the Rules are abysmal, the companies polices toward their customers are abysmal... Stop making excuses for GW please..

 Breotan wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
pig thieves.

Exsqueese me?

Read the most recent yearly report. The CEO actually referred to the case he brought against chapterhouse in which they lost or dropped 3/4 of the claims as failing not because of their lack of legal standing and preparation but because the US legal system was made to address things like porcine theft.... seriously. Ironically, the pumbagore was not on the list of supposedly infringing models.

Profile rank updated.

There's a miniature for that....


The Auld Grump

 zlayer77 wrote:
GW needs to change things or the next half year report will show an even bigger loss in sales.. One of the things that have stayed constant the last few years is the declne in sales.. And I dont get why people are still trying to defend and justify the direction this is going in..

I watched a movie a few days ago its called the "Big Fan". And sadly I think some of you are acting just like the main protagonist. The Company you love has beaten you over the head, but still you cant stop cheering for it.. At this point it is just starting to get sad.. Stop being victims and stop buying GW miniatures, the Rules are abysmal, the companies polices toward their customers are abysmal... Stop making excuses for GW please..

In fairness, we do not know at this point that there has been a drop in sales, I'd agree that it's likely, but there are plenty of scenarios where profit could be impacted where sales (revenue) are not.

I also agree that I find it baffling that people still seem so loyal to GW in spite of everything, they often appear to be the very "grateful goobers fawning over the latest jewel like releases" or however it was phrased, but if someone is, somehow, happy with their relationship with GW then we can't demand they stop buying, all we can do is try and show them reasons to stop and hope they agree.

It appears the plenty of people are coming around to this way of thinking by themselves, thankfully, so all we have to do now is hope GW respond in the right way to reinvigorate people's interest and start growing the game and the company again.

 zlayer77 wrote:
GW needs to change things or the next half year report will show an even bigger loss in sales.. One of the things that have stayed constant the last few years is the declne in sales.. And I dont get why people are still trying to defend and justify the direction this is going in..

I watched a movie a few days ago its called the "Big Fan". And sadly I think some of you are acting just like the main protagonist. The Company you love has beaten you over the head, but still you cant stop cheering for it.. At this point it is just starting to get sad.. Stop being victims and stop buying GW miniatures, the Rules are abysmal, the companies polices toward their customers are abysmal... Stop making excuses for GW please..

I just hope that GW gets its head out of its ass and actually starts doing some research into what people want. What they could do is endorse a specific website that has forums on GW's games like 40k and WHFB, have the website pay them x amount of money for the endorsement, then just take polls and the like and have people read some of what the people actually want GW to do.

Just tossing this out there as a thought, it really is GW's model that is the source of their problem. The games miniature wargaming MODEL space is becoming increasingly crowded and also increasingly commoditized.

Making models is no longer special. In some respects, making models is a pain in the rear necessary-evil that a company must go through in order to sell their IP -- the game rules -- that draw gamers in.

I'm not saying that there is no demand for models, but given the roaring success of the whole Attack Wing/prepainted figs and the 'gray armies' that still dominate a lot of local gaming tables, the incremental growth is much moreso coming from those who have interest in games and models are a byproduct of that sphere rather than the other way around, which is what GW caters to.

I would not say that GW is necessarily overpriced on a model by model basis. They're always at the high end, but if I had real interest in a Knight Titan I'd be able to own one no problem.

The quality of the game experience, though, combined with veyr large and pricey armies and the terrible rules churn that rewrites or invalidates entire existing armies, and far more competition in the whole skirmish and tabletop format generally have simply exceeded the inherent demand for GW models.

So sales and margin figures are responding exactly as one would suppose when production of a commodity good increases (even if GW merch is a 'premium' commodity good). The whole problem is this fixation on being a model company, not a gaming company. Which goes back to the whole 'know your customer' and 'market research' topics.

 Azreal13 wrote:

In fairness, we do not know at this point that there has been a drop in sales, I'd agree that it's likely, but there are plenty of scenarios where profit could be impacted where sales (revenue) are not.

It appears the plenty of people are coming around to this way of thinking by themselves, thankfully, so all we have to do now is hope GW respond in the right way to reinvigorate people's interest and start growing the game and the company again.

But we do know that volume was down over last 2-3 reports so it's a safe assumption that the trend is continuing since their operating profit is 1 million pounds lower than the previous year and an actual increase in volume would have off-set, in whole or part, the loss caused by the fluctuations in currency.

I'd argue that they are trying to grow the game and company with the very rapid release schedule we've seen this year. The problem that I see from my comfortable position on the couch is that since they don't communicate in any meaningful way with their market, they are just throwing bad after bad instead of actually making improvements in their major products or, heaven forbid, diversifying their product range to attract a wider customer base.

I will say their Campaign stuff (Baal and End Times) have both been excellent. So have the "booster starters" that they've released for 40k. I think we'll see how it goes but they are tying things together in a cohesive strategy that does, in a way, tell you what releases look like for the next 1-2 months.

That said telling people that they should stop buying something they enjoy because they are being treated poorly is a bit much. It is subjective. And I'd say that they've done a ton of good stuff over the last 6 months since that poor report. But that's also subjective

Either way I'm looking forward to the specifics of the report. It's always interesting once I filter out the colorful posters and read the more professional/reasonable posts about them since I'm not a financial guy.

 agnosto wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

In fairness, we do not know at this point that there has been a drop in sales, I'd agree that it's likely, but there are plenty of scenarios where profit could be impacted where sales (revenue) are not.

It appears the plenty of people are coming around to this way of thinking by themselves, thankfully, so all we have to do now is hope GW respond in the right way to reinvigorate people's interest and start growing the game and the company again.

But we do know that volume was down over last 2-3 reports so it's a safe assumption that the trend is continuing since their operating profit is 1 million pounds lower than the previous year and an actual increase in volume would have off-set, in whole or part, the loss caused by the fluctuations in currency.

Agreed, like I said, I think it likely, but a drop in profits is no guarantee of a drop in revenue.

I'd argue that they are trying to grow the game and company with the very rapid release schedule we've seen this year. The problem that I see from my comfortable position on the couch is that since they don't communicate in any meaningful way with their market, they are just throwing bad after bad instead of actually making improvements in their major products or, heaven forbid, diversifying their product range to attract a wider customer base.

Yep, can't argue with that. I would also add that such a rapid release schedule, coupled with the fragmented rules + supplements + dataslates, whiles stocks last and limited edition bullcrap is fatiguing their customer base. When I sold cellphones we had an informal "rule of three," I've no idea whether it's a proper thing or just something made up by one of my former managers, but the theory was that if you presented a customer with more than three choices then they would begin to become increasingly overwhelmed with choice and start to become indecisive, which would frequently lead to non committal. I think GW are in danger of breaking the spirit of this idea, if not the strict letter of it.

Azreal13 wrote:
Agreed, like I said, I think it likely, but a drop in profits is no guarantee of a drop in revenue.

If their profits dropped but their revenue didn't, that means that all the exceptional expenses that were meant to restructure things and save them money in the operation of their business was for nothing. It means it saved them nothing. At this point they should really be benefiting by a lower cost of doing business after cutting so much.

A drop in revenue is at least reversible with a new sales strategy or by opening up retail locations in new areas, but if they spent millions restructuring just to have it not save them anything... that's a much, much bigger problem. It means they closed the national GW HQs, changed so many stores over to single employee operations, cut out all the middle management, centralized trade sales in the UK, outsourced staff recruitment and somehow still operate at a cost as if they didn't do any of that. That would be very, very bad.

What I think will end up being the case is that their restructuring worked and their costs will be much lower but revenue will have dropped as well and the end result will be a drop in earnings per share roughly equivalent to their drop in dividends per share (20p down to 16p).

---

GW is (starting) to do a lot of the things the internet was asking for

1) speeding up releases; well it had been asked for again and again, but now they are actually doing it people are saying it's too fast, they can't keep up/understand all the new rules/meta etc

2) Move things on: The fantasy End Times stuff is making major changes to that world, this is going down pretty well, and hopefully it will stick (finding out it is all a 'dream' and 9th returns to the status quo will be a big disappointment)

3) stop the annual price increases, well they did that and people are now complaining about specific price increases...

4) reduce prices, they've actually given significant reductions in some of the recent box sets, hopefully it continues

5) balance the codexes, well this actually seems to be happening with most of the new ones, but it is upsetting existing players as their army of choice no longer works like it used to

Herzlos wrote:
It's all the same company. They can probably hold money in a foreign currency though and the GBP value is just a calculation based on the current exchange rate.

GW of course have holdings and operations in the USA so they take money in local currency and can use that to pay for local expenses. However, at the end of the financial year they need to value any US currency holdings in GBP because that is their reporting currency.

The problem for GW is that having closed down their US based manufacturing, all of the stock needs to be imported from the UK and paid for in USD. When the exchange rate goes against them that can be a bad thing.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
GW is (starting) to do a lot of the things the internet was asking for

1) speeding up releases; well it had been asked for again and again, but now they are actually doing it people are saying it's too fast, they can't keep up/understand all the new rules/meta etc

2) Move things on: The fantasy End Times stuff is making major changes to that world, this is going down pretty well, and hopefully it will stick (finding out it is all a 'dream' and 9th returns to the status quo will be a big disappointment)

3) stop the annual price increases, well they did that and people are now complaining about specific price increases...

4) reduce prices, they've actually given significant reductions in some of the recent box sets, hopefully it continues

5) balance the codexes, well this actually seems to be happening with most of the new ones, but it is upsetting existing players as their army of choice no longer works like it used to

1) i dont think iv ever read anyone saying its too fast
4) Usually those box sets that do give discounts tend to be for things they dont really need. who really wants more tactical terminators or a sentinel.

The rest are peachy.

The Internet is not a monolithic hive mind and has asked for a lot of things, some of them contradictory.

Clearly GW's job is to chart the optimum course between the Scylla and Charybdis of opposing Internet opinions.

If the mid-year report shows a significant decline that cannot be accounted for by currency fluctuation, it will be an indication that GW as in the previous couple of years, have failed to achieve this feat of navigation.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
GW is (starting) to do a lot of the things the internet was asking for

1) speeding up releases; well it had been asked for again and again, but now they are actually doing it people are saying it's too fast, they can't keep up/understand all the new rules/meta etc

2) Move things on: The fantasy End Times stuff is making major changes to that world, this is going down pretty well, and hopefully it will stick (finding out it is all a 'dream' and 9th returns to the status quo will be a big disappointment)

3) stop the annual price increases, well they did that and people are now complaining about specific price increases...

4) reduce prices, they've actually given significant reductions in some of the recent box sets, hopefully it continues

5) balance the codexes, well this actually seems to be happening with most of the new ones, but it is upsetting existing players as their army of choice no longer works like it used to

But the problem is the execution of these things.
1. Yes, the codex release is faster. (good) But the dexes are coming out feeling rushed and sub-par. Regurgitated fluff and art and nothing really new that isn't ill-concieved or just plain ugly. (Taurox, Logan Clause, Centurions) Most people would rather wait just a bit longer for a product that doesn't feel rushed and half-measured.
2. Okay, End times is actually really cool and I hope 40k gets something similar.
3. Price increases are still price increases and stuff is expensive enough as is.
4. But then the box sets are only limited edition and no forwarning so if you don't get them as they come out, they're gone. (though a few permanent ones offer discount and they need to expand on that idea, aka one-click-bundles should save $$$ as well.)
5. The dexes are getting better in this regard, but they're also getting boring. The biggest and most common complaint about new dexes are that they're removing the flavor of the armies and taking away what made them special. There's no more excitement about getting a new dex and feels more like going to a reaping in District 12. You wonder who will be taken and what you'll be left with.

 MWHistorian wrote:

5. The dexes are getting better in this regard, but they're also getting boring. The biggest and most common complaint about new dexes are that they're removing the flavor of the armies and taking away what made them special. There's no more excitement about getting a new dex and feels more like going to a reaping in District 12. You wonder who will be taken and what you'll be left with.

Indeed, it is this behavior that gives ammunition to the silly arguments that "balance=no options". The real balance (or close to it) that many of us want does not have to equal bland mediocrity. Yet the way GW seems to try it I don't really blame people for being "anti-balance" when there is every indication that asking for it WILL result in bland, tasteless codices.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Yep, can't argue with that. I would also add that such a rapid release schedule, coupled with the fragmented rules + supplements + dataslates, whiles stocks last and limited edition bullcrap is fatiguing their customer base. When I sold cellphones we had an informal "rule of three," I've no idea whether it's a proper thing or just something made up by one of my former managers, but the theory was that if you presented a customer with more than three choices then they would begin to become increasingly overwhelmed with choice and start to become indecisive, which would frequently lead to non committal. I think GW are in danger of breaking the spirit of this idea, if not the strict letter of it.

Agreed on all points. I think that they've essentially gone from one end of the spectrum to the other; moving from a monolithically slow release schedule that left many armies languishing in ineffective obscurity for entire editions of the rules. I've just stopped paying attention to releases; I think I'll check back next May when they're on END TIMES BOOK XIX!!!

I have to admit I feel the same. As well as having been PO'd by the high prices and shambles the rules had become, I now feel if I ever wanted to get back into the game I would have to revise my concept and collection every 20 minutes when GW release a new piece of crap.

 frozenwastes wrote:

Azreal13 wrote:
Agreed, like I said, I think it likely, but a drop in profits is no guarantee of a drop in revenue.

If their profits dropped but their revenue didn't, that means that all the exceptional expenses that were meant to restructure things and save them money in the operation of their business was for nothing. It means it saved them nothing. At this point they should really be benefiting by a lower cost of doing business after cutting so much.

A drop in revenue is at least reversible with a new sales strategy or by opening up retail locations in new areas, but if they spent millions restructuring just to have it not save them anything... that's a much, much bigger problem. It means they closed the national GW HQs, changed so many stores over to single employee operations, cut out all the middle management, centralized trade sales in the UK, outsourced staff recruitment and somehow still operate at a cost as if they didn't do any of that. That would be very, very bad.

What I think will end up being the case is that their restructuring worked and their costs will be much lower but revenue will have dropped as well and the end result will be a drop in earnings per share roughly equivalent to their drop in dividends per share (20p down to 16p).

---

Possibly. But there's also the possibility that there's been some sort of unexpected expense (they've paid the lawyers bill for the CHS case? ) and all those economies have actually prevented them from posting a loss.

With only this one piece of information (that profits are down £1m YOY) there are too many other variables in play to make any statements with any degree of certainty. I certainly think that, on the balance of probability, the most likely scenario is revenue is down again, profits are down again and the exchange rate excuse is just about plausible enough for them to cover their arses. Without several other key pieces of information though, it's purely speculation at this point.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
GW is (starting) to do a lot of the things the internet was asking for

1) speeding up releases; well it had been asked for again and again, but now they are actually doing it people are saying it's too fast, they can't keep up/understand all the new rules/meta etc

2) Move things on: The fantasy End Times stuff is making major changes to that world, this is going down pretty well, and hopefully it will stick (finding out it is all a 'dream' and 9th returns to the status quo will be a big disappointment)

3) stop the annual price increases, well they did that and people are now complaining about specific price increases...

4) reduce prices, they've actually given significant reductions in some of the recent box sets, hopefully it continues

5) balance the codexes, well this actually seems to be happening with most of the new ones, but it is upsetting existing players as their army of choice no longer works like it used to

I didn't know the colour of disingenuousness was "technicolour".

1). For the most part they've just taken a month's worth of releases and spread them across multiple weeks. So it appears faster more than it is faster. Yet there has been an acceleration of the time between each Codex release, which is nice. People are complaining though about all the DLC bull gak, with datasheets and whatnot out the wazoo. That's not the same thing as complaining that the release is faster/can't keep up with the meta. A lot of people don't give two gaks about the meta.

2). Yes. The End Times have been a resounding success. It remains to be seen whether this newfound spark of energy will last or if GW will see that there is a market for change in the narrative.

3). They stopped doing across-the-board price increases, so now just increase the prices with each release. How is that better? And why shouldn't people complain?

4). Yeah no. They've made a few metal/FineCost things into plastic kits, and that always reduced the price. They haven't been "reducing prices".

5). I don't want to comment on this, but given that GW releases two editions of 40K within 2 years of one another, and responces to Codices that seem more interested in cutting things and reducing options, I dunno if this newfound trend of "balance" (if that's really what it is) is a good thing.

 Azreal13 wrote:


Possibly. But there's also the possibility that there's been some sort of unexpected expense (they've paid the lawyers bill for the CHS case? ) and all those economies have actually prevented them from posting a loss.

With only this one piece of information (that profits are down £1m YOY) there are too many other variables in play to make any statements with any degree of certainty. I certainly think that, on the balance of probability, the most likely scenario is revenue is down again, profits are down again and the exchange rate excuse is just about plausible enough for them to cover their arses. Without several other key pieces of information though, it's purely speculation at this point.

It depends if the attorney's fees are an extraordinary (rare) expense or not; if it's extraordinary, it'll be taken out after calculating operating profits.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


I didn't know the colour of disingenuousness was "technicolour".

1). For the most part they've just taken a month's worth of releases and spread them across multiple weeks. So it appears faster more than it is faster. Yet there has been an acceleration of the time between each Codex release, which is nice. People are complaining though about all the DLC bull gak, with datasheets and whatnot out the wazoo. That's not the same thing as complaining that the release is faster/can't keep up with the meta. A lot of people don't give two gaks about the meta.

2). Yes. The End Times have been a resounding success. It remains to be seen whether this newfound spark of energy will last or if GW will see that there is a market for change in the narrative.

3). They stopped doing across-the-board price increases, so now just increase the prices with each release. How is that better? And why shouldn't people complain?

4). Yeah no. They've made a few metal/FineCost things into plastic kits, and that always reduced the price. They haven't been "reducing prices".

5). I don't want to comment on this, but given that GW releases two editions of 40K within 2 years of one another, and responces to Codices that seem more interested in cutting things and reducing options, I dunno if this newfound trend of "balance" (if that's really what it is) is a good thing.

I guess sometimes a quip is too juicy to use even if it doesn't make any sense at all.

1) Prior to this edition Tyranids wouldn't have received any new models until their new book came out. That's a big change and could reasonably fall in the acceleration of releases category.
You seem to begrudgingly agree that books are (obviously) coming out quicker. Most people want to have up to date rules for their army.

4) Multiple box sets have been significant discounts over retail for the individual minis. That counts even if it isn't the across the board decrease that you want.

5) I'm enjoying the Ork, Nid, and AM (sigh) books a lot.. I can safely say that this edition has brought me back to 40k, and I'm excited to work on multiple new armies for the first time in 6-8 years.

Sometimes people genuinely disagree with you without white knighting or trolling. Maybe you've been spinning for too long.

3. I think no across the board, yearly, significantly above inflation price rises is a great thing,

I'd much rather new kits cost more (to reflect the fact they cost money to design & make) and everything else stay about the same price

4. Baby steps,

even limited the new box sets gave a genuinely good discount to those that could get them (and those that couldn't may still benefit as some of the stuff leaks onto ebay where they will reduce, even if only temporarily, the price of those individual minis).

I'd love to see more and I'd love to see permanently available bundles (even if only the older stuff that isn't selling well any more) but I'll take what I can get

I'm not pretending that GW is all sunshine and flowers, but I'll celebrate the hints that they might (and it's only might) be starting to reign in some of their idiocy on price rises, power creep and so on. I may well end up disappointed, but it's slightly more fun to be hopeful

Plastictrees - Yes, but the problem is, a lot of these things had bad that was in close-to-equal measure with the good!

- End Times is awesome, but they only offered hardback editions which sold out nearly immediately! Meaning that people had cooled on them by the time they were available to actually buy. Also, it's Very expensive to buy all these books, particularly in hardback!

- The tyranids release is awesome, but undercut by their still being so secretive about releases. Also, while army updates are a good thing, with a new edition out less than 2 years from the last, armies are being invalidated faster than ever.

I agree that GW has made a few positive adjustments, but unfortunately (to me) they've come with drawbacks in nearly equal measure. 7th edition made my Tyranid build obsolete, and a new set of models to make them relevant again is great... if I hadn't already made a whole army less than 2 years into 6th edition only to have it made nearly useless right away (specifically with anything being able to claim an objective, making the utility of a gaunt swarm even less than it already was).

I certainly appreciate that I get to avoid a lot of the negatives by coming in fresh as I sold my last 40k army about 6 years ago.

The secrecy is definitely an issue. How often should we expect a new edition now? Should we expect army updates in the vein of the recent Tyranid release to be the norm?
I'm choosing to be recklessly positive about directions I like without knowing if they are long term trends or not.

GW profits are down? Hmm, maybe they should try raising prices to compensate.............

If only they could just sell more $30US plastic apothecaries.

I'm buying 10 instead of making my usual end of year charity donations.
We're here for you GW!!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yep, can't argue with that. I would also add that such a rapid release schedule, coupled with the fragmented rules + supplements + dataslates, whiles stocks last and limited edition bullcrap is fatiguing their customer base. When I sold cellphones we had an informal "rule of three," I've no idea whether it's a proper thing or just something made up by one of my former managers, but the theory was that if you presented a customer with more than three choices then they would begin to become increasingly overwhelmed with choice and start to become indecisive, which would frequently lead to non committal. I think GW are in danger of breaking the spirit of this idea, if not the strict letter of it.

Yep, that's an actual thing. Here is a TED talk by Malcolm Gladwell on the topic, and here is a book on it.