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 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
From playing Dropzone Commander I felt those stands could really use beefening up....

In what way? Mine are perfectly sturdy, I glued the wee plug in directly to my models and the actual base has been 'based'. They seem well balanced and nothing has fallen over so far.

Well, for instance most wargaming bases are hollow in the middle, rather than with a completely flat bottom, and thus they stay sturdy. Did you see the video above with the ship wobbling? Even if you glue it (and most people don't so they can remove them for transport) it's still quite spindly... I'd like to see a thicker stem at least.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Scourge-ships are still WiP and not final. So there WILL be some design-upgrades.

DZC-bases are quite heavy, even the plastic ones, if one tips over there has to be quite some force. You also better use two widgets per base... makes it easier to assamble and a bit sturdier.

The fleets not looking like ground units in space was exactly the point for Dave. There are some basic design choices, but also space dictates how the design pattern is altered.

KS... the plastic starter boxes are quiet expensive to produce.... we are talking 200K. Adding the fact that the ships are planned to be quite modular and designed to hold magnets for quick exchange of moduls from the beginning on I can understand why he uses KS for the start. Especially since this game is produced in addition to DZC. Only the core ships will be plastic btw, the more specialized ships will be resin as usual.

That's some great info, and a good idea about using two widgets (one above and one below the stem) per base to make it sturdier! Maybe they should supply that as the stock configuration, since you'd have to buy extra widgets otherwise?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Dropfleet sounds intriguing, but I've personally found the ground game rules to be a little... I don't know, repetitive?

Actually no, but judging from videos and experiences quite some american players seem to favor a different Meta than Europeans. Over here we prefer a more dropship-focused battle with much more non-conventional ways of attacking. It takes some time to adapt to the different way of fighting but once you get it it really is not your usual standard-battle.

While I grant it could be different elsewhere (and usually is for any game when talking about different continents) in my local gaming group is the Gencon 2013 champion and 2014 runner up for DzC (he actually won the Star Wars Armada tourney at GenCon this year when not working at the Hawk Wargames booth - what a beast!). So, this isn't just like a tiny meta I'm talking about here... I really think that a different board layout could help, but straight streets with little or no cover between tall buildings is kind of a recipe for repetition.

Objectives help with this, but even those are not that varied in style. I definitely think it's an area with room for improvement (this was the take away from much of our gaming group after my friend and I really tried to get DzC adopted) and I hope they consider ways to do so (perhaps with a different type of card terrain, maybe lots of very low 1-story buildings for example). I've always wanted to do a desert themed board with much smaller structures, but it's a bit pricey to do with the terrain I've found available for that look.

So, a San Fanceisco style board with hills and streets that curl and fold in upon themselves would help the game stay fresh?

Quite a bit actually, yes

Some of Hawk's photography shows setups like this with elevation variances, but it's just hard to get a table like that made in practice, especially at a smaller scale than a lot of wargamers have terrain in. But there are some sweet options - my DzC display board uses a Secret Weapon tile with a "creek" in it, but it looks like a little mini canyon with 10mm models on it

chaos0xomega wrote:
Shifting back to DzC for a second, it seems that theyre already looking at more rules changes and ajustments/balancing for later on this year, which makes me wonder what the point of a LE hardcover rulebook is for whats apparrently intended to be a "living" ruleset.

Hawkwargames are already aware that this could be an issue.

"Since the Limited Edition Rulebook has just been published, there will be no changes to the core rules (besides the aforementioned coming back onto the table on a 4+ after leaving with an objective) for at least 6 months. Dave said that he likes to keep the rules as a living rules set, so they will continue to make tweaks on an approximately 6 month tick-tock, but if a rule or unit's rule is in the Core Rules, it will not change until then, and maybe not even then. So keep that in mind when you're asking about a rule from the Core Rules. Nuff said." http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6980&start=40

Also, Hawk are planning to launch an electronic, living rulebook version of the rules "On a completely unrelated topic, Hawk Wargames are very close to releasing a ... (wait for it...)... App. Yes, an app for both iOS and Android (at the same time!) that will not be free (sorry, Ljevid!), but will be very reasonably priced. The main app will contain all of the core rules and unit rules, and will probably (but it hasn't been finalized yet) be in the $10-$15 price range. There will also be "the books" which are extra, but will be very reasonably priced. For reference, I think all of the Warmachine/Hordes online material costs a total of $40, and all of the current DzC stuff (core app, plus books) will be "less than that". The app and books will be actively maintained, and you will just need to buy the app once, and it will "always stay current". This is Hawk Louis' brainchild, and I met the developer, Andrew, tonight, and he will be doing demos of the app at the Hawk booth tomorrow. I am very excited about this "

Some more information on DFC "Also on the Dropfleet front, the Shaltari will not have gate-like mechanics in space, as that's not how they work, but they will, of course, have shields. However, if you remember from previous info about Dropfleet, the way you determine range to an enemy ship is a combination of your sensor capability and the enemy ship's "signature", and when a Shaltari ship decides to raise its shields, "it will light up like a Christmas tree!"

PHR and Shaltari DfC ships are just in Dave's head, but PHR will be very much in favor of broadsides, and will from an aesthetics point of view have a combination of "curvy bits and straight, hard edges; think of a PHR rail gun like the Ares or Odin carry". "

These snippets are courtesy of JD Welch on the official Hawkforums. Big props to him for getting the information from Dave, the guy behind Hawk.

There is also a free and standalone army builder which has all you need to build lists.

I know it's impossible for the core units due to the steel molds being made already, but I hope that the scourge ground units from here on forward use these ships as a base, as opposed to the more 80s style designs.

If they did that, and updated everything else to these newer aesthetics, I would buy back into DZC and DFC in a heartbeat.

 RiTides wrote:
Quite a bit actually, yes

Some of Hawk's photography shows setups like this with elevation variances, but it's just hard to get a table like that made in practice, especially at a smaller scale than a lot of wargamers have terrain in. But there are some sweet options - my DzC display board uses a Secret Weapon tile with a "creek" in it, but it looks like a little mini canyon with 10mm models on it

I wonder if it might be worth it to buy some of those My Busy Books with the little maps for hot wheels cars or the Island of Sodor, and then just cover everything but the roads and rivers with DZC buildings or Proxie Models terrain? Some of those maps have quite a lot of variety.

Or could you use Heroscape tiles and fish tank deco to make a Shaltari planet?

I can see a pattern here. With Infinity and with DZC I often found it interesting that our tables look so different from the American ones. Over here we use way more scenery and rearrange them very often. So there is seldom a repetetive game since every time we play we have a different table and even with the mission layouts we use them just as a list what has to be absolutly on the table but still add extra stuff. On The other hand, we do have companies like Warmill, 4Ground and Blotz etc. over here which makes getting a lot of good-looking terrain easier.

I know it's impossible for the core units due to the steel molds being made already, but I hope that the scourge ground units from here on forward use these ships as a base, as opposed to the more 80s style designs.

Absolutly noch chance. The design ist not so much 80s but very technically sound. Dave makes a point of it that he approves only designs that do not work with handwavium. Also ground units will look different from space units but keep the basic aesthetics. As with modern planes that look different from modern tanks etc. this will be the standard for both games.

Our local scene is very Infinity heavy and definitely uses tons of terrain in as many different configurations as possible, as you describe your local scene . Approaching DzC in a similar manner is smart, but just makes the buy-in a lot higher since the terrain is smaller in scale. That's why most people use the paper buildings DzC provides, but then you have the repetitive issue.

Having Hawk promote alternate table types would be a really good idea for growing the game - all the "official" games and tournaments I've seen from Hawk have been on their cityscape terrain only, including all the tournies the Hawk team has come over to run in the US (at AdeptiCon, GenCon, and in the past TempleCon). Can anyone in the UK speak to if they use other terrain in their home events?

I think an Infinity approach could really make the game much more viable, but unlike Corvus Belli I haven't seen this pushed at all. I'd really like to see some pics of your table setups if you have them, Duncan!

While it's still subject to change, I feel like I'll point out that Dave has repeatedly mentioned that the DFC Kickstarter will only be used to product the plastic starter sets (which allows most of the ships to be built), and nothing more. They don't want to exclude retailers and the standard supply chain by doing one of the huge Kickstarters where everyone buys everything there, and then retailers are left in the dust. Which I think is a great plan, myself.

I know some folks love their huge giant Kickstarters where you get hundreds of models and loaded with exclusives, but at this point, that doesn't appear to be Hawk's plan, and I'm happy for that.

piperider361 wrote:
While it's still subject to change, I feel like I'll point out that Dave has repeatedly mentioned that the DFC Kickstarter will only be used to product the plastic starter sets (which allows most of the ships to be built), and nothing more. They don't want to exclude retailers and the standard supply chain by doing one of the huge Kickstarters where everyone buys everything there, and then retailers are left in the dust. Which I think is a great plan, myself.

I know some folks love their huge giant Kickstarters where you get hundreds of models and loaded with exclusives, but at this point, that doesn't appear to be Hawk's plan, and I'm happy for that.

Plans are all well and good, but sometimes change. I can see a LOT of money pouring into that KS, and hopefully Hawk has a plan for that if it happens.

Yeah I love DZC, but at this point in my LGS we're pretty much limited to the cardboard DZC terrain (and occasional re-purposed FoW terrain). It's mainly due to there not being many of us plus the cost of terrain.

I'm envious every time I see pictures of some of the terrain on tables in stores in Europe.

If the KS gets extra money, it should just go towards more future sprues that allow for even more variants. Plastics are ridiculously expensive to produce. I'm pretty sure Hawk is still paying off the bank for the DZC plastic starters, which is why they want to do KS for these ships.

Has DZC gone retail? I still can't find it in my FLGS.

So, weird question, and I know this isn't quite the place, but it IS one of the only high-traffic discussions on DFC/DZC on DakkaDakka...

I plan on getting into DFC, and want to play DZC, but my one brief demo proved difficult, because as a gamer with a disability, I sit rather low versus most gaming tables. It never mattered much for 40k, etc... but DZC's paper-craft buildings, and densely packed tables actually made seeing and having a sense for the full battle-field, quite tough.

Can anyone speak to how the game does with still numerous, but "shorter" terrain pieces?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, weird question, and I know this isn't quite the place, but it IS one of the only high-traffic discussions on DFC/DZC on DakkaDakka...

I plan on getting into DFC, and want to play DZC, but my one brief demo proved difficult, because as a gamer with a disability, I sit rather low versus most gaming tables. It never mattered much for 40k, etc... but DZC's paper-craft buildings, and densely packed tables actually made seeing and having a sense for the full battle-field, quite tough.

Can anyone speak to how the game does with still numerous, but "shorter" terrain pieces?

4Ground do some 10mm scale buildings meant for DZC that are shorter but also allow you to remove the upper floors to allow east access: http://www.4ground.co.uk/urban-zone

Worth a look. Also, the missions in the book don't all require an urban battlefield to play.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Has DZC gone retail? I still can't find it in my FLGS.

Ages ago....

DFC is supposedly out around the end of the year.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Has DZC gone retail? I still can't find it in my FLGS.

Ages ago....

DFC is supposedly out around the end of the year.

I guess it hasn't arrived in France yet then

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Has DZC gone retail? I still can't find it in my FLGS.

Ages ago....

DFC is supposedly out around the end of the year.

I guess it hasn't arrived in France yet then

Judging from the tournaments I've come across, it certainly seems to be. Your LGS may not carry it normally due to demand.

Mine (U.S.) doesn't, but they can order the models from one of their suppliers.

DFC will be more like early 2016.

And we do have quite a lot scenery companies for 10mm over here. 4Ground, Blotz, Warmage, etc.

Release in 2016 but Kickstarter in October, right?

True shame no one in my area is playing this, otherwise I'd be buying PHR immediately. :(

 RiTides wrote:
Release in 2016 but Kickstarter in October, right?

Right

I recently got into this game and I'm having a blast.

I'm hoping to build up a player base in the Cleveland area over the next 6 months. Perfect for when Drop Fleet hits

Rules for the Screamer and Raider

The Abhorrent rules sounds quite useful but the complete lack of a ranged weapon is a hefty limiting factor IMO, at least the Screamer is cheap.

Wow, a +1 modifier when searching for objectives! I think they should FAQ if that stacks or not, seems like you could make it basically impossible to discover an objective by hiding a bunch of screamers by the building

I would seriously consider fielding a few just to run up the board (rather than fly) with that rule, and Movement 6 (so 8" on a road)!

Ya the screamer is going to be great to just slow down some points gathering. Also would be annoying for people to hunt down instead of something of more value. I like it.

More rules:

Pungari

Flak teams

Valkyries

Medusa and Triton X

The Medusa is terrifying.

 Silent Puffin wrote:

The Medusa is terrifying.

No kidding. I find myself suddenly re-thinking my approach to flame weapons, not going to lie. Might be time to invest in some Fire Wagons.

Only thing I don´t like is the taming of Shaltaris. They are beatable as they are it just takes some more brains than usual. No real reason to nerf them.