Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Why is almost everyone obssesed with "diversity"... Does it really matter?

Yes.

First of all, you can paint them how you want, second, the majority of 40k players are white, also, imagine black cadians for a second. Not only that, don't mean to be racist, I imagine that white people probably went to space with the emperor first, so that most of the planets humans would be white. I imagine that there a black people on terra(because they may have stayed in the age of strife) and catachan because of he climates. Now, time to hide from all the people who want diversity and claim all those that have second thoughts racists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am gonna have a small rant here about racist and sexist topics in 40k

First, No black people? There is black people as well, I know I posted about there not many branching out of terra for white people going to the stars and repopulating planets, but you can just paint them black. Catachans and Tallarn may be black for harsh climate. Cadians are supposed to be white, for the climate of there planet is much like america,EU and England. White scars are mongolian and the salamanders have dark skin supposing they may be african.

Second, sexism. People complaining about there being no big boobed soldiers in the imperial guard. Seriously

 orkdwarf wrote:
Not only that, don't mean to be racist, I imagine that white people probably went to space with the emperor first, so that most of the planets humans would be white.

For this sentence to make [i]any[i] sense you really, really need to explain two things.

1. Why would only white people go off on the great crusade with the Emperor?

2. What about the countless billions that had already colonized the galaxy during the age of technology?

The problem is not any in-universe explanation. If GW said (and I personally very sceptical that it has ever been stated in the terms you describe) that "white people" left Earth in greater numbers or whatever then that is what they said. The question is why they would make such a design decision? What could it possibly add to the universe by excluding entire groups of people? It may be an artistic vision to imagine a future without PoC but that does not mean it is one that cannot be problematic.

How can it not break immersion if the supposed very best and brightest of humanity are consistently depicted as hailing from a single ethnic group? Why should the exceptions be cordoned off into seperate chapters or organisations? The whole in-universe justification for the Sisters of Battle is a loophole! Why does it require a loophole, an administrative mistake, to include women? This is the problem. GW are gods of their fluff and thus we really should be talking about the decisions being made behind the fluff and not the fiction itself

 orkdwarf wrote:
also, imagine black cadians for a second.

Okay. I did. Nothing happened. What was supposed to happen, exactly?

 orkdwarf wrote:
Not only that, don't mean to be racist, I imagine that white people probably went to space with the emperor first, so that most of the planets humans would be white.

First, most people went to space before the Dark Age of Technology, so long before the Emperor revealed himself. Second, why? Why would the first settlers be mostly white? I can see no reason. Based on current economics, most of them being Asian would make more sense .

 orkdwarf wrote:
I imagine that there a black people on terra(because they may have stayed in the age of strife) and catachan because of he climates.

And what about the climate on Cadia? Would it not make black people? Keep in mind we are talking about a whole planet here. What about all the millions of other planet?

Gasmasked Mook wrote:
The problem is not any in-universe explanation. If GW said (and I personally very sceptical that it has ever been stated in the terms you describe) that "white people" left Earth in greater numbers or whatever then that is what they said. The question is why they would make such a design decision? What could it possibly add to the universe by excluding entire groups of people? It may be an artistic vision to imagine a future without PoC but that does not mean it is one that cannot be problematic.

How can it not break immersion if the supposed very best and brightest of humanity are consistently depicted as hailing from a single ethnic group? Why should the exceptions be cordoned off into seperate chapters or organisations? The whole in-universe justification for the Sisters of Battle is a loophole! Why does it require a loophole, an administrative mistake, to include women? This is the problem. GW are gods of their fluff and thus we really should be talking about the decisions being made behind the fluff and not the fiction itself

Exactly. This comes to mind whenever someone argues against female space marines by saying "but the geneseed is incompatible with women blahblahblah." This isn't some sad immutable fact that we have to accept in our lives. GW made the decision to include that piece of fluff. 40k is a constructed world made by people with their own biases. And those can be challenged.

 General Kroll wrote:

 orkdwarf wrote:
Not only that, don't mean to be racist, I imagine that white people probably went to space with the emperor first, so that most of the planets humans would be white.

For this sentence to make [i]any[i] sense you really, really need to explain two things.

1. Why would only white people go off on the great crusade with the Emperor?

2. What about the countless billions that had already colonized the galaxy during the age of technology?

Basing on current countries with not enough money to go to space, africa. Most of the continent. There. So I think I cleared up an entire issue.

 orkdwarf wrote:

Basing on current countries with not enough money to go to space, africa. Most of the continent. There. So I think I cleared up an entire issue.

You're using the current political/economical climate to justify something that happens some 10k-40k years in the future?

And you're serious?

I don't think I've read something that starts with 'I don't mean to be racist', and then end up being not racist.

Unless as some sort of joke, like 'I'm not racist, but apples are fething delicious'.

@orkdwarf

So based on economic datas of countries on a planet were interplanetary space travel is complete science fiction, we should assume the follwing:

1) there will be no major migration of human beings in the next 20 000 years

2) geo-economical maps will remain largely the same during those 20 000 years

3) proportion of the varius ethinic group will remain similar.

4) billions of people will be left behind.

5) skin pigmentation of human being won't change in 30 000 years to match new environments (AKA white people turning darker and darker of skin over multiple generations)

Here is some reality check for you. Caucasian people represent around 25% of the world population. In the next 100 years, this should go down to around 17%. 60% of the world population right now is of asian complexion. Black people are the group with the greatest growth of population by a landslide.

I don't want to sound to patronising, but you seem to suffer a lot from an ethnocentric point of view which leeds you into murkier waters in certain context and discussion.

epronovost wrote:
@orkdwarf
Here is some reality check for you. Caucasian people represent around 25% of the world population. In the next 100 years, this should go down to around 17%. 60% of the world population right now is of asian complexion. Black people are the group with the greatest growth of population by a landslide..

Out of interest, how did you come to the Caucasian proportional decrease? Did you draw that conclusion based upon other ethnicities having more children that Caucasians? Or something like mixed race etc becoming more prevalent? Just genuinely intrigued by that comment

nudibranch wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think if GW re-released Cadians tomorrow with half female and half male it'd appear pretty forced and I could see how some people would feel it's artificial pandering to the PC crowd.

You think what they're already doing isn't pandering? It is.

It's just pandering to you.

let's not kid ourselves here, we all know that GW pander to 12 year old boys, not any of us here on the forums.

 orkdwarf wrote:


Basing on current countries with not enough money to go to space, africa. Most of the continent. There. So I think I cleared up an entire issue.

No, you just brought up an issue which had already been brought up and dismissed in this thread. IIRC multiple times.

 orkdwarf wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 orkdwarf wrote:
Not only that, don't mean to be racist, I imagine that white people probably went to space with the emperor first, so that most of the planets humans would be white.

For this sentence to make [i]any[i] sense you really, really need to explain two things.

1. Why would only white people go off on the great crusade with the Emperor?

2. What about the countless billions that had already colonized the galaxy during the age of technology?

Basing on current countries with not enough money to go to space, africa. Most of the continent. There. So I think I cleared up an entire issue.

That's utter hogwash.

@statu

Actually both. Most Western country have negative birth rates which means their population naturaly decrease. For exemple Germany has a birth rate of around 1.50 while Kenya has child birth rate of 6.5.

 orkdwarf wrote:
Basing on current countries with not enough money to go to space

Current biggest economy in the world: the USA. Has a black president and a big black population.
Soon to be biggest economy? China. Barely any “white” “caucasian” in it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It's not that I don't appreciate wanting diversity, I just think the place to start is getting people who want to make such models in to the design studios rather than complaining about the people who are already there not pandering to your desires.

What is the problem with complaining about it? It that not called feedback, and something that companies like to get so they can make more attractive products?

Sorry I misspoke. Sure, complain about it, I just don't see why it has to be taken any further than any other aesthetic complaint.

That is, don't assume everyone wants the same thing or that it would be inherently "better" if they did change it to the way you want it... accept that in the end it's probably just because that's the way the designer wants it to be... don't assume there's racism/sexism just because the designer doesn't want to make non-white/non-male models... don't assume people who don't want diversity in race/sex in their models are themselves wrong/sexist/racist.

Of course if we did all those things, threads like this would only last a couple of pages instead of lasting 20 pages before ending up locked because people can't get along

Personally I'd like to see more non-whites and non-males in design studios more than I actually care about the models. I tend to think it will occur naturally if/when a more diverse audience gets interested in wargaming and start finding their way in to design studios. If it never happens I think it says more about society as a whole than whether the models themselves were male/female.

GW doesn't feel like making black miniatures.

You can paint as many black people as you want, though. Nobody will care if you have an army of black Guardsmen/Marines/whatever.

There's your answer and solution.

 Blacksails wrote:

 orkdwarf wrote:

Basing on current countries with not enough money to go to space, africa. Most of the continent. There. So I think I cleared up an entire issue.

You're using the current political/economical climate to justify something that happens some 10k-40k years in the future?

And you're serious?

I don't think I've read something that starts with 'I don't mean to be racist', and then end up being not racist.

Unless as some sort of joke, like 'I'm not racist, but apples are fething delicious'.

Fair point. Shoulda put it on the Imagine black cadians for a second bit.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I just don't see why it has to be taken any further than any other aesthetic complaint.

Not sure what you mean by “further”.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
accept that in the end it's probably just because that's the way the designer wants it to be...

But I do not think it is that way because the designer made a conscious choice about it, that is one of the points! I really do not think that the painter/illustrator/… took a second to ask himself or herself “Which skin color am I going to give to this character. Oh, I know, white will be perfect”, I think he or she just skipped the asking yourself part.

Return of a Bigot, I was sent to enjoy a little ban heh. I have yet to read into what was posted to me but would like to answer this first.

 Peregrine wrote:
The main reason this one gets more attention than the others is that there are a lot more people willing to stubbornly defend the absurd lack of female models than things like the Taurox or Wolfy Claus and his sleigh.

I didnt think it will come to this (me quoting Dark Heresy) but there you go

"The wartorn 41st millenium is not always an encouraging place to be for a female. Few get the opportunities of their male counterparts, but by the same token they do not get exposed to the danger out there in the wilder parts of the galaxy. Certain Imperial Guard regiments recruit females to fight alongside men; the Eclessiarchy and the Inquisition likewise employ females at all ranks, but again their number is not in proportion to men"

There was also a quote from some book that women are below 10% in regiments that do employ them.

The really funny bottom line to this is the answer to this fluff bit on the forum I typed it from, posted by a "pro women 40k equality" person:

"Thankfuly licensed sources are not canon"

so it seems to go both ways heh. I agree though, just because canon is allowed by GW to contradict itself in various sources which is the attitude I applaud btw.

Anyway please stop claiming it's absurd when it has a basis in sources you yourself seem to consider valid. Im not about your quote in particular but your general stance on how it's obvious that women would be send to fight just as men, you can find a lot of valid reasons for women to not be included in IG ranks on massive scale, I understand your line of thinking but it's not the utimate logical assumption you think it is.

Btw reading of your other quotes, one could read it a bit like a suggestion that I "like" sexism. I don't, I actualy hate it in real life and happened to act accordingly too, despite being a child of a "traditional culture" that is so often singled out as a source of all the wrong women suffer. It's deep in my head that women are equal just because we all have brains capable of understanding beyond such simple differencies.

I like the extremeness of 40k though and I dont want that part to be restrained by anything, pg ratings, target audience political bias etc. That's all there is to it.

Your post made made understand something ; each "side" can find what it wants in the fluff to prove his opinion. The lore is not a solid matter and can be used to justify pretty much anything.

Thus, any argument based on "I read it here and there" is doomed to end up in a stalemate.

The only true thing is : some plastic sets could have more girls (and I don't speak about Space Marines, they are men and that's fine), especially in the IG, but they don't. This can certainly be explained by a mix of GW designers' background, audience targeting or simple laziness. I don't know and I don't really care.

Whether you like it or not, the presence of female troopers is likely in the ranks of the IG but GW does not give us the opportunity to make it happen.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

In the end, the artwork goes to crap anyway, it got much worse in 7th edition with some of the new pictures looking cheap, low quality and less 40k ish than ever imo. Not all dexes though skitarii was really ok and at least model wise they seem to dodge stormraven tauroxes like debacles. Anyway women or not it might die in my eyes anyway.

I agree to say artworks in codex are not what they were anymore but it is not the point we're making here. We're talking women in the IG, and I will be glad to discuss why you'll be so pissed to see women in plastic kits.

Women in IG would not be the end of the world (forced diverity everywhere would though imo) tbh but it's just better now.

The thing you said there, and it is as clear as water, is that adding women would get the kit worse. I had difficulties to identify what you were arguing for since the beginning of this thread but now it seems pretty clear to me.

Actualy a few heads in the actual kit for people who want to use women would not be a problem. Problem for me would be those women making it to the art in high numbers especialy in the context of adding more diversity in general. I dont want pics of Hispanic, Asian, Indian, black and white boys and gals together led by black comissair with his retinue of grenadier girls.

Btw my current campaign in xcom enemy within I have more girls than guys and a hefty number of black people among the ranks. I dismiss and hire new operatives until I find the right one (or I was until I discovered that you can custom race etc heh) so it's not because of random draw, I actualy prefer female operatives for some reason. So, it's not that Im opposed to the idea of girls as soldiers in general or sth.

Also as said multiple times, noone can stop you from painting your Cadians black or to get third party women bits or minis. Victoria Miniatures girls posted here dont really click with me in the context of 40k but I wont have a bad game or refuse playing against them or sth. I dont like Star Wars either and would cry if space marines went in the direction of stormtroopers design wise (well sm being multiples of beefy vader is great actualy though helmet is actualy the only great think about vader imo) but have nothing but appreciation for the work and enthusiasm of someone with a star wars themed army.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

I like the extremeness of 40k though and I dont want that part to be restrained by anything, pg ratings, target audience political bias etc. That's all there is to it.

Wouldn't restricting 40K characters to mainly a certain demographic, or restraining a given demographic within 40K to a role be restraining it? Honestly that would make the 40K universe seem smaller to me. At least for me part of the appeal of the 40K universe is the absurd scale.

Is there not the issue of generally, from what I've seen in store, there are not many women/other ethnicities, entering the stores? In the 7 or so years I've been playing, I can probably count on one hand the number of women and non-White people I've seen in store. Is the vast majority of people even just looking at the product are white males, what push is there for GW to change? I don't know if there's maybe a cultural taboo or something that seems to restrict the people looking at the products in this way, but I rarely even see women or someone from another ethnicity even looking at the display models. My old store was in the food court of a shopping centre, with the display tables at the entrance, where there were no walls on that side, and 99% or so of those I observed looking at these tables were white males

I'm pretty sure that most people who play 40k are not 7ft tall superhumans, giant part fungi green warriors, robots, anime fish people, or any of the other races of the far future... yet people seem to have no issues playing a game including them.

But seemingly women and non-whites makes things too unrealistic and breaks the immersion?

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most people who play 40k are not 7ft tall superhumans, giant part fungi green warriors, robots, anime fish people, or any of the other races of the far future... yet people seem to have no issues playing a game including them.

But seemingly women and non-whites makes things too unrealistic and breaks the immersion?

Actually, most 40K players are 7ft tall anime robot fungus.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most people who play 40k are not 7ft tall superhumans, giant part fungi green warriors, robots, anime fish people, or any of the other races of the far future... yet people seem to have no issues playing a game including them.

But seemingly women and non-whites makes things too unrealistic and breaks the immersion?

Apparently.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most people who play 40k are not 7ft tall superhumans, giant part fungi green warriors, robots, anime fish people, or any of the other races of the far future... yet people seem to have no issues playing a game including them.

But seemingly women and non-whites makes things too unrealistic and breaks the immersion?

I don't think it has anything to do with being unrealitic or breaking immersion, and more to do with a) people resisting change, and b) for most people the image they hold of a soldier would be of a man in that role. Similarly for a nurse they would imagine a woman. Now if you take a group of white men, and put them in charge of making toy soldiers, the humans are going to be male, and white, especially if your player base is almost exclusively white males, or at least from what you see of them.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most people who play 40k are not 7ft tall superhumans, giant part fungi green warriors, robots, anime fish people, or any of the other races of the far future... yet people seem to have no issues playing a game including them.

But seemingly women and non-whites makes things too unrealistic and breaks the immersion?

Things you mention have some rules, archetypes as well just they are not releated to gender or skin colour.

Remove teeth from an ork, soften the face expression and it will look less 40k but closer gummi bears Toudi.

Add decoration and pipes to anime robot and it will resembe an Imperial vehicle more and more.

Add racial diversity and gender balance to opressive and backwards empire and it will start resembling a modern social sensitive democratic society.


Please note that I mainly speak about visual connotations.


Eldar have women, do I for example say a word against? No, they fit 100%. Now, black skinned Eldar, Im not really sure. Saw them in Thor dark world (space black skinned elves) and they looked kinda ridiculous imo. I dont think it was necessary especialy that Marvel Universe is full of black people already as it's alternate version of current times.

Still would prefer black skinned Eldar over diverse Imperium.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Add racial diversity and gender balance to opressive and backwards empire and it will start resembling a modern social sensitive democratic society.

No it won't, because the Imperium is still an oppressive and backwards empire, just in different ways. Non-humans are to be slaughtered without mercy so that their resources can be used by humanity, which is a pretty good example of the attitudes that motivate real-world racism. There is no reason that, after 40,000 years, we should expect oppressive and backwards empires to be oppressive and backwards in the same way that they are in 2015. A black person is still a human, and that's far more important than whose distant and forgotten ancestors did what to each other 40,000 years ago.

And yet most people will associate it with a cosy minority caring society, while screaming white bald fanatics will be associated with a facist and racist one.

You used similar arguments for women equality in 40k but somehow FFG seems to have a different idea.