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You guys are too limited in your thinking.

If I'm doing SF bikes, I want one like this:



It's a bike! It's a walker!

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'd love to see a bike mounted IG unit. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Cavalry in a game with automatic weapons anyway for most things (daemons and stuff you can kinda give a pass on for being supernatural in the first place).

Bike mounted units have a lot of potential.

They have as much "potential" as cavalry that isn't Daemons.

Which is to say, none unless they're Astartes or Eldar.

Bikes at least get higher T, relentless shooting, Jink, and aren't slowed (but can be hurt by) terrain, and generally have higher armor saves. Far more benefits than "cavalry" get, particularly for a place in a shooty army like IG. I think they'd work a whole lot better in the context of the army than a "cavalry" type unit would. Something like a C&C Nod bike (armored crotch rocket with TOW missiles on the sides) could be very cool.

That said, in general, the "Bike" rules really are 40k's way of portraying "knight" type armored cavalry much more than actual "cavalry" units are.

When I say "potential", I'm referring not just to rules but also to the thematic element.

And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.

 Kanluwen wrote:


And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.

Armored Fist squads are still here, they're just something you make on your own by giving an infantry squad / vet squad a chimera.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.

Armored Fist squads are still here, they're just something you make on your own by giving an infantry squad / vet squad a chimera.

True--but could you imagine Armored Fist Squads actually designed for the role from the ground-up, with something like the Centaur or another open-topped vehicle allowing for the squad inside to just let loose with fire?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'd love to see a bike mounted IG unit. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Cavalry in a game with automatic weapons anyway for most things (daemons and stuff you can kinda give a pass on for being supernatural in the first place).

Bike mounted units have a lot of potential.

They have as much "potential" as cavalry that isn't Daemons.

Which is to say, none unless they're Astartes or Eldar.

Bikes at least get higher T, relentless shooting, Jink, and aren't slowed (but can be hurt by) terrain, and generally have higher armor saves. Far more benefits than "cavalry" get, particularly for a place in a shooty army like IG. I think they'd work a whole lot better in the context of the army than a "cavalry" type unit would. Something like a C&C Nod bike (armored crotch rocket with TOW missiles on the sides) could be very cool.

That said, in general, the "Bike" rules really are 40k's way of portraying "knight" type armored cavalry much more than actual "cavalry" units are.

When I say "potential", I'm referring not just to rules but also to the thematic element.

And it just doesn't fit with Guard. I would far rather see Armored Fist Squads make a comeback as a Fast Attack choice than have bikes and other crap shoehorned in.

Armored fist squads are perfectly possible now...just take a chimera with a platoon infantry squad (or, more effectively, vets in a chimera), never needed to be its own unique unit entry in the first place.

Bikes could fit in just fine, it all depends on how they're designed. Again, something like a Nod Recon Bike could have potential, and there's certainly been some good examples of other possible incarnations as well.

I mean, if you just don't like the concept of the way bikers work in 40k in the first place, on a fundamental level, essentially as "cavalry" imported from Fantasy, I can agree with you there, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a thematically appropriate IG biker unit either.

Give Tank Commaders more orders. Like one that gives out Ignores cover. Make Vendettas cheaper or give them back their old transport capacity back. It's not 5/6th edition anymore. Three TL-Lascannons just isn't that impressive. Alternatively, make the 3 Twin-linked Lascannons just 6 regular Lascannons and give the Vendetta a special rule that allows it to fire all 6. That way it'll make for an effective tank hunter again.

Introduce a unit of field engineers that can set up kinetic barriers or something that can provide invuln saves to platoons. They really do need something to boost their survivability. Or just make them really cheap.

Vanquisher cannons need some kind of mechanism to make them more accurate. .50 hit rate is just unacceptable for a dedicated tank destroyer. Make them S: 8 AP: 1 Armorbane too.

Give some kind of defense to haywire grenades to Leman Russ tanks. Like a "Shielded Electronics" piece of optional wargear that gives a 4+ save against them.

Make some kind of multi-wound dealing shell available to Vanquishers. Like a special round that causes D2+1 wounds per hit or somesuch. Gives Guard some recourse against monstrous creatures like Wraithknights.

Really, what Guard needs is a boost to their ability to deal effective wounds. Sure, Guard can pour on fire like there is no tomorrow but most armies have a laundry list of ways to mitigate that damage. Single shot, High S and Low AP firepower just doesn't cut it anymore and that is what Guard is currently geared towards firing.

Haywire is an issue in general. It's being applied willy nilly with some of the newer books, and was never really adjusted after they introduced HP's.

It's one thing to glance a tank on a 2+ when it might shake the crew, destroy a weapon, or immobilize it. It's another when tanks all of a sudden have "wounds", and Haywire "wounds" on a 2+, and vehicles only typically have 2-3 "wounds" and no inherent saves, particularly non-skimmer vehicles.

Basically GW is liberally applying a mechanic unchanged from 3E to the 7E paradigm without having adjusted it for how vehicles have changed in the interim.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, if you just don't like the concept of the way bikers work in 40k in the first place, on a fundamental level, essentially as "cavalry" imported from Fantasy, I can agree with you there, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a thematically appropriate IG biker unit either.

I don't like Bikes / Cavalry at all - but we have them, so it is what it is. However, as there are Tallarn RR models, I "need" a squad for completeness.

Firstly, I’d trade out the CCS for the method followed by the HH Solar Auxilia. The commander is an independent unit, while the Command Squad is filled with buffer units and/or vets. Then create a box similar to the Space Marine Commander box, so you can truly customize the look of your Company Commander.

Give Vanquishers the Beast Hunter round from the Armored Battle Group, as well as co-axial Heavy Stubbers/Autocannons.

Give tanks the ability to take Autocannon Sponsons for 35 points.

Have Grenade Launchers be able to fire Haywire grenades, like the Solar Auxilia.

Have Commissars and Medics come is units of 1-5 that can be split between other units, as an Elite choice.

Have Tempestus Veteran Command Squads become an HQ choice, with Tempestor Primes being Senior Officers.

Have Veteran Sergeants and regular Sergeants become Non-Commissioned Officers that may issue one order a turn to their own unit. If a Junior or Senior officer is in the same unit as a Non-Commissioned Officer, the NCO may not issue orders.

Make Tauri Fast Vehicles, and give them Smoke Launchers, while lowering their cost by 15 pts. Instead of making the Taurox Prime a Scion exclusive, make it an upgrade option to the regular Taurox for 30 points.

Give Tempestus S4/AP3 Assault 2 guns. Give them the option of specializations, similar to Veterans. Those can include a drop trooper specialization that lowers scatter on Deep Striking, one that gives a boost in CC (maybe Furious Charge/WS boost), and one that give them the ability to take Breacher Charges and EOD armor (3+ save, but cannot run/reduces cover save of the unit).

Give Tempestus Squads the ability to take Chimeras.

Make the Vendetta an upgrade for the Valkyrie, and include the Vulture in the main codex.

Create an Armored Fist unit in a Fast Chimera that comes with a Carapace armor and Shotguns that have Shred. Allow them to take 2 Flamers/Melta-Guns per unit.

Give Chimeras the Autocannon turret upgrade in the main codex.

Alternatively, recreate the Storm Chimera unit from the Krieg Assault list and give it fast, then give it to the Armored Fist unit.

Create a spotter unit to aid artillery. A 3-man squad with Deep Strike (or Infiltrate) and Shroud (as long as there is no character attached to the squad) that can target a unit within x" and give tanks that fire on that target reduced scatter or a re-roll to scatter.

Make Hydras be able to change "modes" between skyfire and non-Skyfire. Give it a one turn delay between being able to switch back to the previous mode. Return it’s ability to ignore jink saves, and make it an Elite choice.

Wyverns should get a points increase for balancing, as well as make them an Elite choice.

Give Enginseers the Bolster Defences special rule from Techmarines.

Add Rapier Laser Destroyers to the main codex.

Add Thunderer tanks to the main codex.

Make Assault Cannons a HWS choice.

Make Bullgryns an upgrade to Ogryns, similar to the option changes that Marine characters get from switching to Terminator armor.

General price drops are needed compared to other codices, especially with artillery and Baneblades. Baneblades are so much less survivable than Knights and Wraithlords, while having less damage output.

And finally, either remove the One-Use-Only from their Hunting Lances while giving the Death Rider stats or let Rough Riders die with what little dignity they have left.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, if you just don't like the concept of the way bikers work in 40k in the first place, on a fundamental level, essentially as "cavalry" imported from Fantasy, I can agree with you there, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a thematically appropriate IG biker unit either.

I don't like Bikes / Cavalry at all - but we have them, so it is what it is. However, as there are Tallarn RR models, I "need" a squad for completeness.

We have them NOW, who's to say what we will have with a new book?

I can't send enough letters to Santa to get rid of stupid Rough Riders and Ratlings both. Guh. Awful, awful units thematically and visually.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Give some kind of defense to haywire grenades to Leman Russ tanks. Like a "Shielded Electronics" piece of optional wargear that gives a 4+ save against them.

That seems overly harsh against DE - who had their only other anti-tank weapon nerfed to hell in 6th/7th.

 vipoid wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Give some kind of defense to haywire grenades to Leman Russ tanks. Like a "Shielded Electronics" piece of optional wargear that gives a 4+ save against them.

That seems overly harsh against DE - who had their only other anti-tank weapon nerfed to hell in 6th/7th.

To be fair, with how wonky IG vs DE games typically are, I don't think it'd make much difference either way there...

If I were to guess, in a possible 8E, it would not be unsurprising to see Haywire suffer the same fate as 4E Rending (changing Rending form auto-wounding on a 6 to-hit with no armor, to ignoring saves on a to-wound roll of 6), where it's just gotten so widespread outside of what it was initially intended for, and its newer applications are just so powerful, that it necessitates a nerf.

Haywire was one thing when it was restricted to grenades on relatively few units, usually one model per unit, but it's become another when its available on a special weapon able to be taken in 3's and Rapid-Fire'd with BS7 and 36" range 2 shot heavy weapons

I know what you mean, it's just annoying to see an already-suffering army suffer even more because GW has given all its good toys to much stronger armies - but better versions of said toys and fewer (if any) slot restrictions..

As everything was suppose to have been in ye old days of RT. I demend the return of combilas vortex grenaded launchers on every IG model. This would not only make it more fun for me to play with, but also would enrich the game with more fluff.

Makumba wrote:
As everything was suppose to have been in ye old days of RT. I demend the return of combilas vortex grenaded launchers on every IG model. This would not only make it more fun for me to play with, but also would enrich the game with more fluff.

Haha, if they did that all the people who glued Grenade Launchers onto their Guardsman would all shout, "Who's laughing now?!".

 vipoid wrote:
I know what you mean, it's just annoying to see an already-suffering army suffer even more because GW has given all its good toys to much stronger armies - but better versions of said toys and fewer (if any) slot restrictions..

Absolutely. Unfortunately that's the way GW likes to do things for some reason. Rending, Haywire, Tank squadrons, etc

Makumba wrote:
As everything was suppose to have been in ye old days of RT. I demend the return of combilas vortex grenaded launchers on every IG model. This would not only make it more fun for me to play with, but also would enrich the game with more fluff.

Well that would certainly be a...thing. With the way the game's going and how formations work, and some people's unfathomably positive attitudes towards them, I would only be mildly surprised to see this.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Absolutely. Unfortunately that's the way GW likes to do things for some reason. Rending, Haywire, Tank squadrons, etc

Incidentally, I miss CADs...

 vipoid wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Absolutely. Unfortunately that's the way GW likes to do things for some reason. Rending, Haywire, Tank squadrons, etc

Incidentally, I miss CADs...

Indeed. I'd absolutely love to return to single CAD, no formation days.

I wouldn't be surprised if GW did away with formations in 8th/9th edition after they milk the market dry with them.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if GW did away with formations in 8th/9th edition after they milk the market dry with them.

At this point I think a 3E style reboot is an increasingly likely probability

The game is running into, and running off with, many of the same issues that plagued 2E, necessitating a reboot.

If GW were smart they would pull a Peter Molyneaux and state that 7th edition was badly handled and that 8th edition will be so much better even if it really isn't. But no GW is the Porsche of miniature wargaming and everything they make and do is perfect.

Back on topic, I would also like to see Hydras being able to engage ground targets effectively. In real life, ground based AA guns/platforms also happened to be good against non-flying targets as well. The M17 GMC and the Flak 88 are examples of this.

I'm blown away that anyone would suggest taking away units from any codex. Everyone has different opinions on units and the way they fit into the universe.

I personally love rough riders, have been using them for several editions now, and have spent a large amount of time making mine fit into the style of my Mordian Iron Guard.

I do not like Ogryns at all, yet understand that others do and so would never advocate them being removed from the codex.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If GW were smart they would pull a Peter Molyneaux and state that 7th edition was badly handled and that 8th edition will be so much better even if it really isn't. But no GW is the Porsche of miniature wargaming and everything they make and do is perfect.

Back on topic, I would also like to see Hydras being able to engage ground targets effectively. In real life, ground based AA guns/platforms also happened to be good against non-flying targets as well. The M17 GMC and the Flak 88 are examples of this.

Absolutely, AA weapons have historically been put to use with great effect against ground targets, often better than against air targets. That restriction on "Skyfire" weapons in general is rather absurd. As is the idea that blasts can't hit flyers, as Flak is fundamentally a blast/shrapnel weapon.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Much win and truth, pretty much a fix to everything that is wrong with the codex

Vakathi, I am at the point of starting a Kickstarter to get you promoted to head codex writer at GW!

If we need something it is a general dropping of the prices across the board coupled with the upgrading of a lot of our stuff. Perhaps a special rule which gives the Vanquisher a +4 on the damage chart too.

To those that asked why IG players hate to see SH's in standard ill tell you why: We are realists. We, as a player segment, are also amongst the most practical too. We know what this game should be like and after having gone from nerf to nerf (I am still not happy about seeing our Evisecrator being taken and handed to the SM player. Its not like they even needed it anyway) and have seen our once balanced army crumble around us.
But we remember. We remember when the SH vehicles where rare and limited to Apocalypse games. We remember when even then it was rare to see more than one Baneblade or Shadowsword. We remember when Apocalypse games where not merely standard 40K games on a slightly larger scale but something else, something better, something more.

We remember what this game used to be like. And we can only look upon it and weep.

 Ignatius wrote:
I'm blown away that anyone would suggest taking away units from any codex. Everyone has different opinions on units and the way they fit into the universe.
I personally love rough riders, have been using them for several editions now, and have spent a large amount of time making mine fit into the style of my Mordian Iron Guard.
I do not like Ogryns at all, yet understand that others do and so would never advocate them being removed from the codex.

The difference is that Ogryn(and Bullgryn) have now been made to fit in a lot better with the Guard and its aesthetic.

Rough Riders are holdovers from a much different time.

Does it suck that people would lose the ability to field models they've spent time converting? Absolutely. But they just don't work outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.

Well what I would love to see is a Detachment like the new Marine one centered on the old 1 HQ and 1 Infantry Platoon.
I love running a Single Platoon, but with the CAD I now have to a Vet Squad and it wrecks my whole theme.

I'd like to see ogryns get FNP.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if GW did away with formations in 8th/9th edition after they milk the market dry with them.

At this point I think a 3E style reboot is an increasingly likely probability

The game is running into, and running off with, many of the same issues that plagued 2E, necessitating a reboot.

40k 7E is worse than 2E. 2E had fewer factions, each of which was smaller with fewer kinds of things. Now, everything has chromey rules that individually nearly as bad as the 2E stuff. 40k is bloated and slow. The only good thing is that we don't have to buy a separate Apoc supplement to get all of the common rules.

A 3E reboot would be ideal. But it should start with Unbound, and retain Formations. Formations are great stuff, as are Superheavies and GCs. Too bad GW missed the boat with 6E, and we've all been paying for it since then.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

A 3E reboot would be ideal. But it should start with Unbound, and retain Formations. Formations are great stuff, as are Superheavies and GCs.

I disagree - I think formations are a big part of what's wrong with the current game. Most are, at best, a way to take units you'd take anyway but get a bonus for doing so. At worst, they're a way to spam already OP units, and get yet more bonuses as a reward for doing so.

If they absolutely must be in the game, then I think they should either be a 1-per-army thing, or else add an additional cost to the units - so that the bonus is paid for.

Also, I'd much rather Apocalypse units be split off again and this time stay in apocalypse. That way the rules might actually support those units - as opposed to their "rules" just being a list of rules they ignore.

master of ordinance wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Much win and truth, pretty much a fix to everything that is wrong with the codex

Vakathi, I am at the point of starting a Kickstarter to get you promoted to head codex writer at GW!

vipoid wrote:

I disagree - I think formations are a bog part of what's wrong with the current game. Most are, at best, a way to take units you'd take anyway but get a bonus for doing so. At worst, they're a way to spam already OP units, and get yet more bonuses as a reward for doing so.

I agree completely. Formations are one of the biggest balance problems the game faces.

I've also yet to see a formation taken because "well it's fluffy!". It's always "I can spam more of X" or "I get this *insane* ability for using Y formation" or "I don't have to pay for upgrades with Z formation".

If they at least had some hefty points costs attached to them, one could accept them. But the whole free abilities and/or wargear for zero points is absolutely absurd and inherently massively unbalanced.