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 vipoid wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

A 3E reboot would be ideal. But it should start with Unbound, and retain Formations. Formations are great stuff, as are Superheavies and GCs.

I disagree - I think formations are a big part of what's wrong with the current game. Most are, at best, a way to take units you'd take anyway but get a bonus for doing so. At worst, they're a way to spam already OP units, and get yet more bonuses as a reward for doing so.

If they absolutely must be in the game, then I think they should either be a 1-per-army thing, or else add an additional cost to the units - so that the bonus is paid for.

Also, I'd much rather Apocalypse units be split off again and this time stay in apocalypse. That way the rules might actually support those units - as opposed to their "rules" just being a list of rules they ignore.

What is really bad with formations is the gargantuan power gaps between tem. Take the Imperial Guard Steel Host one for instance, you have to take a Tank Commander, three 3 Tank Leman Russ squadrons and a Hydra. If you do this then every tank within 12" of the command tank gains Fearless, Fear, Counterattack and Preffered Enemy.
Now this seems okay doesnt it? Nothing really game breakingly powerful but the buffs are nice.
And then you see the flaws
'Counterattack'. 'Fearless'. What use are these rules to tanks? Vehicles are immune to fear and so giving a tank fearless does nothing and Counterattack just gives you the benefits of charging if you are charged by the enemy. But tanks cant fight in CC anyway so it is pointless. And to tell the truth most of the benefits of fear do nothing either as tanks are always hit on a 3+ no matter what the attackers WS.
So in essence you are gaining Preffered Enemy and Fear. So it goes from being medicore to out right useless (Who lets their tanks get that close anyway?)

Now compare this to the Demi Company formation or the Skyhammer formation.
Look at the difference in power levels.
Weep.

As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.

I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.

You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.

That was built around the old 3.5E IG codex, coming out in very early 5E, and cost an additional 150pts over what all the units themselves cost.

Makumba wrote:
I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.

This would suck. Besides being incredibly tactically boring, I would hate to do this to my opponent. Stuff like this just isn't fun or dynamic. It's bad game design.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.

You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.

No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.

Ya know personally i think most formations are fine.

but perhaps balancing them with an associated points cost would be welcome.

I think id like to see IG infantry squads split completely up with the actual different types of platoons being an actual formation.

Like bog standard, Penal legion, Heavy garrison and stuff.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.

You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.

No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.

That wasnt a formation, that was some kind of thing you had to pay points for if I remember rightly.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As opposed to the old Imperial Shield formation? That was great stuff, getting cover and being able to drop Apocalyptic Barrages on your heads.

You mean the 2 Bullgryn unit one? Yeah, its a great formation. Until you realise just how overpriced the Bullgryns themselves are.
All in all the Imperial Shield is essentially just a massive and much needed patch for Bullgryns.

No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.

That wasnt a formation, that was some kind of thing you had to pay points for if I remember rightly.

It was a formation, back when Formations were Apocalypse only and had a points cost attached.

It was a formation, and any points were far less than the benefit.

Aye. Back when formations cost something. Nothing like the stupidity of todays 'bring X, Y and Z to get free stuff' formations.

You act as if 150 points was a fair cost for those assets. It was not, not even close, or I never would have taken it.

That's why that particular version of the formation was replaced with some watered down thing that apparently uses worthless Bullgryns?

Under 7E, those bonuses would be free and fair.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I'm blown away that anyone would suggest taking away units from any codex. Everyone has different opinions on units and the way they fit into the universe.
I personally love rough riders, have been using them for several editions now, and have spent a large amount of time making mine fit into the style of my Mordian Iron Guard.
I do not like Ogryns at all, yet understand that others do and so would never advocate them being removed from the codex.

Does it suck that people would lose the ability to field models they've spent time converting? Absolutely. But they just don't work outside of the Death Korps of Krieg.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not following. Why does it work for Krieg but couldn't possibly work for any other regiment? The whole idea behind the guard is that there are so many different styles in their armies that nearly anything is possible.

Why can Ogryn be changed to fit into the style but Rough Riders can't?

I really just am not following your train of thought here. I think I did a pretty damn good job of making my Rough Riders look like they belonged in my army, yet you think I shouldn't be able to have them because they don't fit?

I agree with Ignatius. It's terrible to have units Squatted, to say nothing of having your entire army Squatted. Just leave them around, even if they are less efficient.

 Las wrote:

Makumba wrote:
I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.

This would suck. Besides being incredibly tactically boring, I would hate to do this to my opponent. Stuff like this just isn't fun or dynamic. It's bad game design.

Because having whole army pined and blown on your opponent turn is less boring and more fun. In 6th both players could have fun playing w40k. Maybe not always, maybe not for all factions. In 7th only one person can have fun most of the time, and in the case of IG it is almost always not the IG players. Unless it is something like tailored IG with 9+ wyverns vs orc tide list.

master of ordinance wrote:Take the Imperial Guard Steel Host one for instance, you have to take a Tank Commander, three 3 Tank Leman Russ squadrons and a Hydra. If you do this then every tank within 12" of the command tank gains Fearless, Fear, Counterattack and Preffered Enemy.

It only gives preferred enemy, none of the other things.

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, the one that gave On my coordinates, scheduled bombardment and defence lines for taking 3 Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.

On my Coordinates is my favourite ever rule. I used to use platoons to bait the enemy and then blast the 3 of my guys who were left and wipe out so many marines. I would love to have a similar rule in a new Codex, maybe one that allows your basilisks to target your own conscripts. That would definitely get people playing basilisks again.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why scrap the vendetta?!

Because it's lazy and stupid. It doesn't need to be its own item, and what's more it's lazy and stupid.

People whine about the Taurox? The Vendetta is about a hundred times worse.

If anything I'm ok with the points increase, but let them carry 12 models again...

Hahahaha, NOPE. It had no business being able to carry anyone to begin with, much less a full capacity.

You want a "gunship"?
Then get a gunship.

Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.

I couldn't disagree with you more. But while we are on it, let's get rid of transport capacity in storm Ravens too

Better yet - lets get rid of Storm Ravens, Centurions, Dredd Knights, Logans Sleigh and other abombinations

They wont because they dont want to retool all the different cooler regiments since there are many 3rd party producer of better IG stuff.

Yeah I agree re the regimentsa and GW BUT having them would make the Codex better IMO

So you want 4th edition guard codex then? And everyone else to lose their cool new toys, too?m

Lawl.

JohnHwangDD wrote:You act as if 150 points was a fair cost for those assets. It was not, not even close, or I never would have taken it.

That's why that particular version of the formation was replaced with some watered down thing that apparently uses worthless Bullgryns?

Under 7E, those bonuses would be free and fair.

Undercosted or not at least it costed SOMETHING. It was also Apocalypse only if I remember (all formations where back then IIR)

Trickstick wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:Take the Imperial Guard Steel Host one for instance, you have to take a Tank Commander, three 3 Tank Leman Russ squadrons and a Hydra. If you do this then every tank within 12" of the command tank gains Fearless, Fear, Counterattack and Preffered Enemy.

It only gives preferred enemy, none of the other things.

Allow me to correct myself: It gives one semi useful at best rule. For a minimal (and this is bare bones without the upgrades and using the cheapest vehicles bare bones) 700 points.

Given what the other favoured armies are getting I would want a little more than that.

NO ROUGHRIDERS!!!

Sam I am I will not play cowboys in space,
I will not fight them at your place,
I will not battle them in any space,
Sam I am get'em outta my face,
and pack'em back in your case

Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.

Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.

Also Astra Millitarium is awful. IG forever.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I've also yet to see a formation taken because "well it's fluffy!". It's always "I can spam more of X" or "I get this *insane* ability for using Y formation" or "I don't have to pay for upgrades with Z formation".

If they at least had some hefty points costs attached to them, one could accept them. But the whole free abilities and/or wargear for zero points is absolutely absurd and inherently massively unbalanced.

No kidding. I ran the assassins execution force formation just for funsies in an apoc game. It's not one of the more powerful formations, but it is hilariously unfluffy. Nothing more fluffy than the Officio Assassinorum throwing up their hands and saying "whelp, this guy's gotta go. We could put together a carefully thought out plan, or we could just send a bunch of random assassins after him and see what happens. Because nothing says meticulous specialization and discretion like throwing the kitchen sink at a problem."

 TheSilo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I've also yet to see a formation taken because "well it's fluffy!". It's always "I can spam more of X" or "I get this *insane* ability for using Y formation" or "I don't have to pay for upgrades with Z formation".

If they at least had some hefty points costs attached to them, one could accept them. But the whole free abilities and/or wargear for zero points is absolutely absurd and inherently massively unbalanced.

No kidding. I ran the assassins execution force formation just for funsies in an apoc game. It's not one of the more powerful formations, but it is hilariously unfluffy. Nothing more fluffy than the Officio Assassinorum throwing up their hands and saying "whelp, this guy's gotta go. We could put together a carefully thought out plan, or we could just send a bunch of random assassins after him and see what happens. Because nothing says meticulous specialization and discretion like throwing the kitchen sink at a problem."

One of the CSM codices(I want to say 3rd?) actually had something just like that occuring; an Execution Force going after Abaddon's Chosen.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Just make things work properly.

1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules.
2. Hydras need Interceptor.
3. #lolroughriders
4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88?
5. #derpratlings
6. Price drop on Scions.

On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!

I'm so happy that someone mentioned the Basilisk.... I love that big gun and I would love it so much more if it was good...

Something really needs to be done about Sentinels. I love the little things both model wise and conceptually. AT-STs in my Guard army? Yes please! Only problem is that they suck. I think what Sentinels need is some way to buff their firepower or their durability. Maybe give them some sort of reroll to hit system for their guns or something?

I'd love for sentinels to be incorporated as troops or intergrated into platoons.

And made cheaper.

And have a veteran upgrade.

And take a multi-melta.

But mostly the first thing.

 Red Marine wrote:

Cavalry as a strong fighting force died in the early 16th century. Aristocratic attempts to keep it viable through the 19th century usually ended in humiliating trajedy. Mounted combat was deliverd a merciless death blow in WW1. See Gallipoli. Rifled weapons utterly & completely removed cavalry from the modern battlefield. There best use today(2015) and 100 years ago was as a rural scouting force. If you want them on the table top I'd agree to see them as tiny scouting partys that help with Scout or Infiltrate.

Roughriders take the sci-fi element right outta the game for me. I dont care if thier cyber horcies, velocoraptor cav or potato dragoons. The wackier steeds just make it look more like fantasy battle. No more cowboys & aliens.

I know what you mean, but then I think the same about bikes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but bikes were typically used for messengers and such - they weren't just sent to the front line to do the equivalent of a cavalry-charge.

What's worse is GW's rules for bikes. Apparently, riding a bike makes you:
- Tougher (those WWII bilkers were infamous for there ability to just shrug off direct missile strikes)
- Able to aim at targets in any direction with a front-mounted weapon
- Able to ride and fire heavy weapons much easier than on foot because... reasons. Also, there's no penalty for trying to aim such weapons whilst riding a bike - that's easy. And yet, apparently shooting a moving flier is impossible even for the most skilled soldier.

 TheSilo wrote:
Because nothing says meticulous specialization and discretion like throwing the kitchen sink at a problem."

It's the Imperium. Even Assassins use the "kitchen sink" method sometimes.

 stormcrow59 wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Just make things work properly.

1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules.
2. Hydras need Interceptor.
3. #lolroughriders
4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88?
5. #derpratlings
6. Price drop on Scions.

On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!

I'm so happy that someone mentioned the Basilisk.... I love that big gun and I would love it so much more if it was good...

Going by the Vindicator formation.

I have a feeling its gona be like take 3 get ignore cover FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

or something like that. (Edit: For the basil)

Makumba wrote:

 Las wrote:

Makumba wrote:
I remember reading an old imperial guard codex. Don't know if it was 2ed or 3ed, but it gave pre game indirect fire blast of high strenght for every vehicle the IG army took. If we got a formation like that I would be happy. My army would have seven or eight pre game shots.

This would suck. Besides being incredibly tactically boring, I would hate to do this to my opponent. Stuff like this just isn't fun or dynamic. It's bad game design.

Because having whole army pined and blown on your opponent turn is less boring and more fun. In 6th both players could have fun playing w40k. Maybe not always, maybe not for all factions. In 7th only one person can have fun most of the time, and in the case of IG it is almost always not the IG players. Unless it is something like tailored IG with 9+ wyverns vs orc tide list.

Well, that's hyperbolic as feth but I'll say yea, it is more fun. Because it's during the freakin game.

 Desubot wrote:

 stormcrow59 wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Just make things work properly.

1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules.
2. Hydras need Interceptor.
3. #lolroughriders
4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88?
5. #derpratlings
6. Price drop on Scions.

On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!

I'm so happy that someone mentioned the Basilisk.... I love that big gun and I would love it so much more if it was good...

Going by the Vindicator formation.

I have a feeling its gona be like take 3 get ignore cover FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

or something like that. (Edit: For the basil)

Basilisk should be ignoring cover anyways.

Keep the minimum range and Indirect Fire; make direct fire ability an upgrade that requires a separate shell and uses a smaller blast template.

Units of 3 Basilisks use the Apocalypse 'Four Leaf Clover' template.