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Okay, thank you.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Okay, thank you.

I think we're still looking at about $90 up here though, + an additional $16 for the cards... Still better than the outright hilariously ludicrous $190-200 or so before taxes!

While I'll definitely have to grab the cards + basic campaign book, at least I can always eventually use the SW side of things, as my Tzeentch army have had their bases all modeled up with bitz of dead Space Puppies!
Between what I bought to model up all my bases, and what I inherited from a couple friends who quickly gave-up on the SW fad shortly after their 5th ed codex release, I can probably cobble together at least 1200pts of Pups. Add to it a couple Wolfy Dreads, (call me crazy, but I do enjoy the idea o Murderfang!), and some Wulfen, and I can at least run a sweet little narrative display.

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

You have the book? Any shaky screenshots you can share with us?

No? Then wait a week we'll start getting leaks then.

Nomeny wrote:
I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Bitterness & constant disappointment are a Chaos player's best friend!

Requizen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

You have the book? Any shaky screenshots you can share with us?

No? Then wait a week we'll start getting leaks then.

Well, unless there's a Tzeentch formation that allows WC harnessing on 2's for Lore of Tzeentch powers, as well as fixes for the likes of Horrors who don't even function properly anymore... Plus a general fix for the Tzeentch lore which is currently complete junk due to 7th dumping all over an army who's damage output is tied to spamming Witchfires.
And/or a fix to the now half defunct Daemon of Tzeentch rule
Actually allowing Exalted Flamers on their own to still access Gifts.

Then no, this update will fix none of the issues that mono-Tzeentch currently has... Right now the supposedly 'best psyker' part of the Daemon army is the outright worst, except at Summoning and abusing a stupid OP gimmick.
Instead, my Tzeentch Daemons actually do more damage in the Assault phase than they can ever manage in the damned Psychic phase!

Why their Chaos so you know its gonna suck. They kept all the bad psyker powers, and they won't be changing any stat lines or point values <cause they never have>. Three of the Data cards are probably for the 3 Bloodthirster variants we already have. They won't fix or remove the Warp Table because chaos equals random and random is FUN. I'm struggling to think of a unit that was bad, that was ever made good by a formation rule. So, the appropriate response is....meh?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Still really sad overall that the Daemon half of the rules are at best just going to be a barely useful Band-Aid at best.

You have the book? Any shaky screenshots you can share with us?

No? Then wait a week we'll start getting leaks then.

Well, unless there's a Tzeentch formation that allows WC harnessing on 2's for Lore of Tzeentch powers

Not assured, but given that there are currently 3 formations out there that do it and it is Lore-accurate, I would imagine this to be true

, as well as fixes for the likes of Horrors who don't even function properly anymore...

Even if they don't function as shooters, they still are the best Troop unit in the book and don't need any changes or "fixes".

And/or a fix to the now half defunct Daemon of Tzeentch rule

Not entirely necessary as the other half is broken as gak

Then no, this update will fix none of the issues that mono-Tzeentch currently has... Right now the supposedly 'best psyker' part of the Daemon army is the outright worst, except at Summoning and abusing a stupid OP gimmick.
Instead, my Tzeentch Daemons actually do more damage in the Assault phase than they can ever manage in the damned Psychic phase!

Sure, if all you want is an army that kills things with Psychic powers, don't play Tzeentch. In fact, don't play the game, because that doesn't happen in any army in the game.

Just because the army doesn't play the way you like it to play doesn't mean it's broken or bad. Assault Tau doesn't work but you don't see all the Gundam fans out there clamoring for laser swords on Riptides.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Bitterness & constant disappointment are a Chaos player's best friend!

For you, maybe. I'm a Chaos player that's pretty happy with how my army works. If you don't enjoy the game, then take some time off. Either you'll find something better to do, or you'll come back to the game with some perspective. Either way you win.

I wouldn't call rerolling saves of 1 "broken as gak" when there's all this crazy new 7.5 stuff. I mean sure we can boost that to a 2++ rerollable, but only for a fethton of points and only on units whose damage output is pretty frigging small compared to the problem units out there.

There's no denying that nowadays chaos is solidly behind the power curve and 626 isn't wrong for desperately wanting better support. It's alright if you like the way they play, but it isn't recent and it doesn't keep up with other books, and as he pointed out doesn't even really fit the depiction of the universe gw has given us anymore in comparison to other armies.

There's still hope this release will help us in a big way, but right now all it seems like is a bandaid to tie us over, and that's pretty disappointing. Complaining won't make gw change, but he/she has a right to do it anyway.

Chaos hasn't gotten enough love. It's natural for customers to be vocally disappointed when you don't handle their product as well as 95% of the customers want you to.

He's welcome to complain. He's not welcome to speak for me.

Nomeny wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I'm glad you managed to find a dark cloud in all that silver lining.

Bitterness & constant disappointment are a Chaos player's best friend!

For you, maybe. I'm a Chaos player that's pretty happy with how my army works. If you don't enjoy the game, then take some time off. Either you'll find something better to do, or you'll come back to the game with some perspective. Either way you win.

Well it really depends on how you play chaos, right? Experiment 626 is a Mono-Tzeentch player, so hard mode. Many CD players prefer mono-lists, while others don't want to have to play Karios and Be'lakor to be competitive.

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

It's the sculptors way of noting the duality between man and beast, the Wulfen is momentarily contemplating the life he's lost, presumably right before ripping a heretic something new for themselves as well.

A similar expression is done on the I am Slaughter book cover, how the ork face is reflected in the Imperial Fists blade, as if to highlight our choice between nobility and barbarism.



What's interesting about the Wulfen piece however is that he's going through a beastial transformation yet maintains his decision to to remain loyalist.

Somewhat thought provoking if you ask me.

Good looking minis too, dynamic and intense, and who doesn't dig sci-fi wolfmen?

Personally I think the expression on the book cover is that of the Imperial Fist contemplating the importance of fiber in one's diet.

So with the exalted flamer and 3 bloodthirster variants, that's 4 dataslates.

What about the other 2?

I suppose Belakor could be one... am I missing anything else?

Maybe the Exalted Alluress from the Seeker Chariots will get Exalted Flamer treatment for... reasons?

Requizen wrote:

Not assured, but given that there are currently 3 formations out there that do it and it is Lore-accurate, I would imagine this to be true

Considering how Chaos has been treated for the past ten years, it's better to expect the shaft again... You know what they say about 'hope' being the first step towards.

Requizen wrote:
Even if they don't function as shooters, they still are the best Troop unit in the book and don't need any changes or "fixes".

Horrors have always been defined as being the 'magical artillery/shooting' Daemons. That's Tzeentch's main focus, alongside supposedly being the best psyker of the 3 magic using Gods and his love of fire/burning things.

Unfortunately, Horrors can no longer shoot - at all! It takes far too many resources to just get their shots off, coupled with their average BS which means that Prescience is pretty much mandatory.
For the typical investment of 8-10WC's minimum, you're lucky to kill 3-4 MEQ's at best. That's about as close to a useless unit as is possible to get nowadays.

Either Flickering Fire needs to be overhauled, (which we know is almost certainly not happening, since the leaks have shown that Tzeentch's Firestorm - the game's worst psychic power btw - is 100% unchanged), AND, Horrors need a special rule to allow them always attempt to cast Flickering Fire.
Otherwise, Horrors need to go back to having a basic shooting ability.

Right now, the unit is complete garbage. WC's are cheap to spam through Tzheralds, who can also bring added utility spells, as well as simply taking the Portalglyph for 'free' Horror units. Plaguebearers squat on Objectives better due to Stealth + Shrouded and higher toughness, with the ability to gain FnP. (and a bullet sponge with a Palanquin Herald)
The only time Horrors win out is vs. Tau due to their ability to pretty much ignore half the game's rules.

Requizen wrote:
Not entirely necessary as the other half is broken as gak

Not sure if serious, or just Trolling...

I wouldn't call the need to invest 800 odd points just to make as pointed out, a single unit that is easily tarpitted in assaults nearly unkillable.

Besides, I'd happily give up the entire re-roll 1's gimmick if it would mean getting a more characterful rule that actively boosts what Tzeentch is supposed to be all about - namely, Psychic phase dominance.

Requizen wrote:
Sure, if all you want is an army that kills things with Psychic powers, don't play Tzeentch. In fact, don't play the game, because that doesn't happen in any army in the game.

Just because the army doesn't play the way you like it to play doesn't mean it's broken or bad. Assault Tau doesn't work but you don't see all the Gundam fans out there clamoring for laser swords on Riptides.

Excuse me, but I play Tzeentch because I enjoy the psychic/magical shenanigans & burning everything in sight that's always defined his daemons

Right now, Tzeentch's ranged damage out put is garbage, as the Psychic tricks are pretty much impossible to utilise, due to how 7th has nuked Witchfires in general. Meanwhile, what little actual shooting Tzeentch has is still hamstrung by the fact it's almost all Warpflame based, and is limited in it's availability & utility...
- Flamers are only S4, and their damage potential is tied directly proportional to how many models are in the unit they target. Against basic 10+ strong squads of T3/4, they're solid. But they can't really scratch anything T5, and/or multi-wound, and/or small elite units of 5 or fewer, as they simply can't generate the weight of fire to negate handing out FnP like candy.
- Burning Chariots are sharing the same slot as Grinders & DP's, and are a high priority target on a fairly flimsy platform.
- Exalted Flamers eat into the number of Tzheralds that are available.
- Screamers while not having to deal with Warpflame, are S4 and again have trouble generating volume of wounds.

Basically, Tzeentch no longer really functions as he should. Warpflame is now a PITA to deal with due to it going off twice per turn now, (Psychic + Shooting phases), and our high strength shooting is hugely limited due to no longer being able to viable throw out plentiful S6 Flickering Fire from Horror w/ Tzherald batteries.

Instead, Tzeentch is better off playing more like a damned Khornate army that runs forwards and hits stuff in combat!

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
So with the exalted flamer and 3 bloodthirster variants, that's 4 dataslates.

What about the other 2?

I suppose Belakor could be one... am I missing anything else?

If I were inclined toward (extremely) wishful thinking, I'd say 2 new LoC variants, to go with the new plastic model that has been on the way for... um... a while?

It'll probably be something for Khorne though.

A bit more info about the book - via Scanner on the Spikeybits forum

And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring! Well I guess you could hope for buffed stats but its probably just re-printed rules.

So:

Data Slates: reprints of already existing units.
New Psychic Lores: 21 powers of which only 9 are actually new.

But there's still a chance the following are good.

New Formations:
New Warlord Traits:
New Relics:

 Sersi wrote:
And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring!

Is this confirmed? Cause if it's not, we don't have to bring the end of the world. Although I think GW left chaos doomed for quite a time, I think it's payback time. I believe skarbrand will be in as a LoW. Probably Gargantuan.

The six data-slates line up with what we all presumed given that there's been no word on any actual new Daemon models (or did I miss that) with this release. The three Bloodthirster variants don't have printed rules for the Chaos Daemon book so putting them in makes sense, ditto with the Exalted Flamer. Be'lakor isn't much of a surprise as he is currently available only on digital platforms.

The interesting one is Skarbrand seeing as he already has rules in the codex, my best guess is that he will get a new profile to reflect the model and be brought in line with the two stronger Bloodthirster variants. I can't see any other reason to specifically give him a data-slate, unless it's purely to have a proper data-slate for a newer model.

I'm curious to see whether this will be an Astra Militarum style codex update in the form of a campaign book as it makes me wonder when the next fully fledged codex for any army will arrive.

Didn't they already release updated 40k rules for Skarbrand in the WD he was released alongside? Pretty sure there were next to no changes at all.

If it's a reprint of that prepare to be disappointed.

That's what I mean, he didn't get any new rules last time so it would be strange for them to be specifying he has a data-sheet now unless it literally is just to have printed rules in a book. If he does get new rules though, that would be awesome.

 Sersi wrote:
And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring! Well I guess you could hope for buffed stats but its probably just re-printed rules.

Be'lakor nerf incoming? Perhaps...?

 Sersi wrote:
But there's still a chance the following are good.

New Formations:
New Warlord Traits:
New Relics:

... and Grimoire nerf. Together that would do a lot to fix some of the more broken combos. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Be'lakor is now able to roll on one of the 3 god tables instead of choosing powers from Telepathy.

And by instead I mean it replaces the ability entirely! FUN.

Grimoire now works on a 6 only. On a 1-4 the unit is so humiliated that they must take a Daemonic Instability test that if failed automatically applies the 'remove entire unit' effect. On a 5 the unit loses all saves it would get, including cover and Feel No Pain (even though Feel No Pain isn't a save). FUN.

Also a new Relic! For 100 points you can choose to treat 2 result on the Warp Storm table as anything else... except you can't actually as it's written in a way that makes everything except a 2 count as a 2 and also mandatory. FUN rules expertly written by Crudace after Kelly left him in charge while he went out to play some Craftworld Eldar to come up with a new OP unit for their next campaign.

The above are not rumors, but are almost certainly 99.995% true considering GW's track record with Chaos.

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
And...there's the 6 data slates: 3 Bloodthirster variants, Skarbrand, Bel'kor, and the Exalted Flamer. So, nothing new...boring!

Is this confirmed? Cause if it's not, we don't have to bring the end of the world. Although I think GW left chaos doomed for quite a time, I think it's payback time. I believe skarbrand will be in as a LoW. Probably Gargantuan.

I don't recall saying confirmed....but seriously its all right there in purple crayon...I mean in the caption. Accept it.

Sorry, new pics or not, the Wulfen look bloody awful.

I don't know where everyone got the new relics from: the scans don't mention it.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:



Be'lakor nerf incoming? Perhaps...?

Oh you know it! I'm sure they've sold enough of him by now, and the game needs more balance something...something. Or you know a point increase.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:


... and Grimoire nerf. Together that would do a lot to fix some of the more broken combos. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

No...no..."rules clarification". Hey gotta clean up those 2++ saves. Unbalancing you know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:
I don't know where everyone got the new relics from: the scans don't mention it.

For some reason there is no English language scan of the page with the two Khorne formations. But that page mentions the "10 formation, relics, warlord traits, and psychic lores."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


Also a new Relic! For 100 points you can choose to treat 2 result on the Warp Storm table as anything else... except you can't actually as it's written in a way that makes everything except a 2 count as a 2 and also mandatory.

Nah....re-roll the warp storm result once per game....50 pts. Bargain!

Caederes wrote:
The six data-slates line up with what we all presumed given that there's been no word on any actual new Daemon models (or did I miss that) with this release. The three Bloodthirster variants don't have printed rules for the Chaos Daemon book so putting them in makes sense, ditto with the Exalted Flamer. Be'lakor isn't much of a surprise as he is currently available only on digital platforms.

The interesting one is Skarbrand seeing as he already has rules in the codex, my best guess is that he will get a new profile to reflect the model and be brought in line with the two stronger Bloodthirster variants. I can't see any other reason to specifically give him a data-slate, unless it's purely to have a proper data-slate for a newer model.

I'm curious to see whether this will be an Astra Militarum style codex update in the form of a campaign book as it makes me wonder when the next fully fledged codex for any army will arrive.

So what are the odds that GW will fix the Exalt Flamer dataslate and allow him to take 20pts worth of Gifts? (currently I figure the odds are sitting around -1000% or so!)

And yes, this is absolutely an Astra Militarum style Band-Aid, meaning we're still going to be just as shoehorned as before, and Tzeentch will still be complete arse at the psychic phase.