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Requizen wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.

I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?

Put them on their Chariot

The best suggestion I've seen so far has been to put a number of them in a Bastion or other building. It's a nice area denial tool, basically tears apart anything that gets close enough, but that's about it.

Daemon Prince with Biomancy can drop Endurance on them for eternal warrior, feel no pain and relentless

chizal wrote:

Requizen wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.

I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?

Put them on their Chariot

The best suggestion I've seen so far has been to put a number of them in a Bastion or other building. It's a nice area denial tool, basically tears apart anything that gets close enough, but that's about it.

Daemon Prince with Biomancy can drop Endurance on them for eternal warrior, feel no pain and relentless

Sadly, basing your strategy around getting a Psychic Power and getting it to go off every turn is the best we can do in this situation. What a mess.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I would say this release is more of a reason to think chaos isn't getting a codex soon, presumably all these formations were written with the current dex in mind, and releasing a new one would invalidate all the "work" they put in to this mini update.

This. Which I'm reasonably happy about as it means they won't be likely to mess with the current codex for at least a year. Yes, some units need updating but at the moment its still very competitive and fun imo.

Based on the leaks so far, apart from maybe trying the few decent new artefacts it's looking like I'll probably be sticking with CAD lists from the current codex. Sometimes I take 3 grinder lists anyway though so if that formation proves to be decent I'll just take them in that rather than the HS slots.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.

I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?

7th edition rules state they always count as being Stationary when firing while embarked on a Chariot...

Yeah, for sure, they can be effective on a chariot. What I wanted to avoid was paying 50 more pts for a bigger footprint and hardly any more durability. Not to mention they can't be taken in a warp flame host on a chariot, which means I can't even run the host unless I pay 50 pts per dude to never get to shoot anything. And the chariots can't squadron together so forget about buffing any of them in an efficient manner if they're chariot riders.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, for sure, they can be effective on a chariot. What I wanted to avoid was paying 50 more pts for a bigger footprint and hardly any more durability. Not to mention they can't be taken in a warp flame host on a chariot, which means I can't even run the host unless I pay 50 pts per dude to never get to shoot anything. And the chariots can't squadron together so forget about buffing any of them in an efficient manner if they're chariot riders.

As a mono Tzeentch player, you're preaching to the choir mate!

At the absolute least they needed Relentless. Would've been perfect if they also could retain the ability to take up to 20pts worth of Gifts, but apparently when a Tzherald steals their ride on them, the Exalts get so mopey and depressed that they suddenly forget how to function...

GW should just give them the new special rule, "Always a Sad Panda."

I've had some hilarious results with them on their Chariot. Drop the Grimoire on it, use a Herald on Disc to hide nearby out of LoS with a Cursed Earth bubble to give it a re-rollable 2++ and bait enemies into shooting it. Because its only AV10, alot of opponents end up trying to sink Boltgun equivalent fire into, which would be otherwise shooting at your T3 troops. It makes a pretty amusing tanky unit. Then you use the AP3 Torrent flamer to cut a swathe through a unit of Troops, or the D3 Lascannon shots to threaten tougher targets.

Admittedly this in a fairly relaxed environment, and not a super-competitve one.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

skarsol wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

I am curious why you would ever take the Masque.

That might summon somebody here to defend a terrible model. You've been warned.

I'll give it a go!

Sure, she's not the best thing in the game. Not being an IC is crippling against most armies; and not counting as a Herald when HQ slots are Daemon's most precious commodity really makes her unattractive.

But in a situation with lots of decent terrain and relatively few enemy threats (eg, someone running combat deathstars) she can be amazing. Or at least, amusing.

Big bad deathstar coming for you? Dance of Caging on, now they're moving a MAXIMUM of 6" that turn. If you have decent terrain she can pop out, dance, and run 3+(D6" re-rollable) back, possibly staying out of harms way.
Dance of Caging can also be used to bring down pesky enemy FMC's to let you shoot/assault them next turn. Or Dance of Dreaming can be used to shut down a riptide squad or Stormsurge or Grav Centurion squad.

To be honest if she didn't take up an entire HQ slot on her own, just doing that ONCE to an enemy per game (maybe even per tournament!) would be worth her relatively cheap cost. If she survives to do it again, you're laughing.
But yeah, taking up a HQ slot is crippling :(.

Requizen wrote:

chizal wrote:

Requizen wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I've spent most of the day trying to think of a way to use exalted flamers effectively.

I have none. They seem useless. Is there any way at all to give them relentless?

Put them on their Chariot

The best suggestion I've seen so far has been to put a number of them in a Bastion or other building. It's a nice area denial tool, basically tears apart anything that gets close enough, but that's about it.

Daemon Prince with Biomancy can drop Endurance on them for eternal warrior, feel no pain and relentless

Sadly, basing your strategy around getting a Psychic Power and getting it to go off every turn is the best we can do in this situation. What a mess.

Well i have thought of a way to maybe make them work in a warpflame host, as i love that they get D3 S10 shots or a baleflamer . What i'm thinking right now is taking a herald on a disc that allows you to bring units from reserve, another one with a grimoire (or the same one if allowed and grimoire is still there to be taken), a squad of pink horrors and 3-4 exalted flamers (maybe more). Put them in reserve, bring them in turn 1 (if that relic allows to bring reserves turn 1), deepstrike near a middle of the board and prefferably onto an objective and wait a turn with grimoire put onto them. I will basically give you an area your opponent to go into and 18" radius is quite a nice field to have.

It is the best i came up with so far... Other thing could be to use them as turrets (like tarantulas in sentry mode, deep striking them onto an objective to be scary and securing points. I'll have to playtest it, but i really want to make them work, as i play a mono-tzeentch army, so having two formations that require 9 units each + herald isn't really helping...

Thinking of it, they could just be used as a deterrant used to get some pressure off horrors, while they summon other stuff literally start with a warpflame host and then grow your army from there approach lol

Trasvi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

skarsol wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

I am curious why you would ever take the Masque.

That might summon somebody here to defend a terrible model. You've been warned.

I'll give it a go!

Sure, she's not the best thing in the game. Not being an IC is crippling against most armies; and not counting as a Herald when HQ slots are Daemon's most precious commodity really makes her unattractive.

But in a situation with lots of decent terrain and relatively few enemy threats (eg, someone running combat deathstars) she can be amazing. Or at least, amusing.

Big bad deathstar coming for you? Dance of Caging on, now they're moving a MAXIMUM of 6" that turn. If you have decent terrain she can pop out, dance, and run 3+(D6" re-rollable) back, possibly staying out of harms way.
Dance of Caging can also be used to bring down pesky enemy FMC's to let you shoot/assault them next turn. Or Dance of Dreaming can be used to shut down a riptide squad or Stormsurge or Grav Centurion squad.

To be honest if she didn't take up an entire HQ slot on her own, just doing that ONCE to an enemy per game (maybe even per tournament!) would be worth her relatively cheap cost. If she survives to do it again, you're laughing.
But yeah, taking up a HQ slot is crippling :(.

They really should have put her, all the heralds, and all the other special characters in the command formation. Or given her IC while in the formation. Now obviously if she was a IC she be an always take.

Which would you rather have? Objective Secured, or overwatch immunity? I guess I'd make that trade against Tau.

Just a quick thought. For the Warpflame Host, if you take an independent Herald with another exalted locus and join it to one of the Horror units in the formation, is it possible to get an S8 Flickering Fire? The formation rules say you can benefit from two loci so would they be cumulative?

As far as I can see you could get +1 from the independent Herald in the unit, +1 from the formation Herald with an exalted locus and +1 from the Formation bonus.

I'm struggling to find a way for the formation to be effective and playing with the idea of a central Horror unit with the Formation Herald and exalted locus, surrounded by 4 more Horror formation units, each with an independent Herald and another exalted locus. It's expensive and squishy but there could be a lot of potential S8 firepower and the warp charges to back it up.

I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

Trasvi wrote:
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.

I agree the wording isn't clear. Though only the horror squad will get the bonus not the independent herald. Because only formation units benefit.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.[/quote


Reading literally the formation its possible accumulate the same focus all the time that you want.

But your idea is very static, and in the edition of the fast movement i think it isnt a good idea.

For tzeentch i think the best idea is try to do a CAD with 2 heralds on disk (maybe with 2 locus, grimoire, and some reliqs), some screamers and 2 of horrors. and try to make a decurion with kairos, warpflame formation (adjusting exalted flamers to the points because are cheapers than horrors, other herald in disk with reliq of know all thezeentch spells and locus (+4 strength :O) and the soulgrinder formation (nude). But i think im dreaming, because these a lot of points...

If someone can calculate it and post..

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.

I agree the wording isn't clear. Though only the horror squad will get the bonus not the independent herald. Because only formation units benefit.

That's fine though as you can just use the horrors to cast the S8 Flickering Fire. I've done a rough 1850 list including 5 units of horrors plus herald for 25WC base and also including a VSG for protection. If you gave each unit 5 psychic dice, best case you could try for a WC2 Flickering Fire from each for up to 15D6 S8 shots, plus something from the flamer/exalted flamer units.

Having said all that in reality it would probably go very differently and I agree that sort of list is probably not actually competitive. I'm just playing around with ideas here for the formation though.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.

Well according to the codex. You can have more than one loci in a unit, but only one is ever active. Normally the high tier one is in effect ie if its a lesser and greater loci; then only the greater is active. If they're the same level say exalted and exalted then you choose which one is active. The formation say you can be effected by the bubble effect of more than one loci. So that that's pretty clear they both work. I'd still argue that they don't intend duplicates. Look at the other loci. You can't re-roll to hit twice, or strike at I15, or get double FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.

I agree the wording isn't clear. Though only the horror squad will get the bonus not the independent herald. Because only formation units benefit.

Is that true though the Herald is an IC if it joins the unit it counts as part of the unit for all intents and purposes, right?

Khorne then is the most appropriate. Hatred to all via formation herald. Rage for the rest. Khorne bubble for +1A. Profit. If properly placed you can have +2 A to most units plus rage to almost all plus hatred. Amazing. Maybe the basic for khorne can be playable. Still no news for forgehost?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to get things straight, khartoth. Khornes Relic says that wounds cause remove from game. So if you hit a gargantuan and score let's say 3 unsaved wounds, you don't remove it from game but it takes 3 x D3 wounds right?

 Sersi wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I'd say 99% that multiples of the same locus don't stack. IDK whether that's explicitly in the rules for these formations, but pretty sure thats the way people would play/rule it.

You're 99% sure based on what though? The formation rules clearly say that the locus on the herald in the formation affects other units within 12", and if those units are affected by another locus (not explicity a different kind of locus) then they receive both benefits.

Well according to the codex. You can have more than one loci in a unit, but only one is ever active. Normally the high tier one is in effect ie if its a lesser and greater loci; then only the greater is active. If they're the same level say exalted and exalted then you choose which one is active. The formation say you can be effected by the bubble effect of more than one loci. So that that's pretty clear they both work. I'd still argue that they don't intend duplicates. Look at the other loci. You can't re-roll to hit twice, or strike at I15, or get double FNP.

It's true that duplicates of most of the other loci would have no effect. Some of these are down to restrictions of the core rules though e.g. you can't reroll a dice twice and stats are capped at 10 etc. There's no logical basis for concluding that two loci giving a +1 modifier wouldn't be cumulative just because duplicates of some other loci would have no practual benefit though.

In any case I'm going off the idea of trying to spam heralds and loci to gain lots of S8 FF; I think it's probably way too inefficient given the limitations of manifesting powers. I think it's possible to stick with S7 FF from the Warpflame Host and take an 1850 list with that and the Forgehost formation as part of the overall Daemonic Incursion formation, plus a tallyhost on the side.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
There's no logical basis for concluding that two loci giving a +1 modifier wouldn't be cumulative just because duplicates of some other loci would have no practual benefit though.

From the CD Codex:

If there are two loci of the same tier, you choose which applies.

That pretty clearly lays out that multiple loci of the same type don't stack. I would say there might be a gray area to allow the formation Herald's locus to stack with one in another unit, but not two in the same unit, but I'd want a clear ruling in a FAQ before I tried using it in a tournament or something.

 undertow wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
There's no logical basis for concluding that two loci giving a +1 modifier wouldn't be cumulative just because duplicates of some other loci would have no practual benefit though.

From the CD Codex:

If there are two loci of the same tier, you choose which applies.

That pretty clearly lays out that multiple loci of the same type don't stack. I would say there might be a gray area to allow the formation Herald's locus to stack with one in another unit, but not two in the same unit, but I'd want a clear ruling in a FAQ before I tried using it in a tournament or something.

Yeah that is a fair point. Certainly that is normally the case. I suppose it's a question of whether the formation rules allow the restriction of only one locus of equal tier being active at once to be overridden. Note that the formation rule refers to receiving the benefit of "another" locus rather than a different or lesser one, but if the unit can't be affected by that equal locus in the first place then the point is moot.

It's probably safest to assume they still can't benefit from cumulative loci effects but I'd already kind of abandoned the idea of trying to stack them from a competitive list building point of view.

Fun note: Invocation says that when you summon the Herald, you get 30 points worth of upgrades. Unless there is some sort of restriction, that means that you can get these new Relics on any Herald you Summon via that power.

-Tzeentch: you can afford Paradox or the 3++. You should probably already have Paradox, but the 3++ is pretty decent if you need staying power. He can sit on an objective, save on 3++ rerolling 1s until he gets joined on the following turn by Horrors or something. Disc is still better for mobility, though.

-Nurgle: best options here are either Bell of the end of the World (-1 LD to all enemies global) or Death Head (one time use AP4 Poison 2+ Large Blast). Summoning a dude and suddenly reducing all Leaderships by -1 is great, and can help you Psychic Shriek things further in the Psychic Phase.

-Slaanesh: You almost never summon these guys anyway, which is good because everything here is a weapon as far as I can tell. Hard pass, since summoning a single, solo T3 model and hoping it gets into Assault is laughable.

-Khorne: Much of the same. You can summon one with the 3+ armor with Adamantium Will and hope it survives a bit longer, but you will rarely do this.


So these are pretty decent if you summon Nurgle or Tzeentch Heralds. Pop a HoNurgle into cover, global -1L. Or summon him right in front of a unit of dudes and Poison them on 2+.

Drop a HoTzeentch onto an objective that you're not holding, give him 3++, watch the opponent's frustration. Bonus if you get him Cursed Earth as well.

So do we still not know what the soul grinder formation does? It's pretty obvious it's 3 or possibly more grinders.

 son_of_osiris wrote:
So do we still not know what the soul grinder formation does? It's pretty obvious it's 3 or possibly more grinders.

No. Unfortunately the poster who had the early copy hasn't been back since

 CrownAxe wrote:

 son_of_osiris wrote:
So do we still not know what the soul grinder formation does? It's pretty obvious it's 3 or possibly more grinders.

No. Unfortunately the poster who had the early copy hasn't been back since

Yup very unfortunate. Probably abducted by the Inquisition for spreading heresy and knowledge of Chaos.

Requizen wrote:
Fun note: Invocation says that when you summon the Herald, you get 30 points worth of upgrades. Unless there is some sort of restriction, that means that you can get these new Relics on any Herald you Summon via that power.

-Slaanesh: You almost never summon these guys anyway, which is good because everything here is a weapon as far as I can tell. Hard pass, since summoning a single, solo T3 model and hoping it gets into Assault is laughable.

I do just take the chariot if nothing else it'll draw fire. If not use her to grant a cover save to you Seekers or other squishies.


Actually, I'm starting to like the formations:

If I had to guess I think the Forgehost will be very similar to the Infernal Tetrad. The image shows three grinders, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle. So you'll probably have to take three grinders, all aligned with a different god. Then like the Tetrad there might be "accumulative benefits depending on how many models remain on the battlefield". The fluff description mentions the grinders competing with each other and fighting all the harder so I'm thinking the benefits might include things like +1 Attack, re-roll 1s to hit, Rage, or even +1 Initiative.

All pure speculation but it's fun to do so.

I'm assuming that we can't take those sweet sweet relics in a normal CAD without taking 17 units of pink horrors or such, right?

Relics are army wide available no matter if you take CAD or formation or decurion.