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I think what may help out our conversation about the tau is what is another unit that is good for the points cost? not comparing versus the WK, which is the most broken, or dreadnaughts/walkers in general, which are the most broken in the other way. But what is a unit that in general is a good unit for the points?

Everyone will say msu dc for ba, but riptides are very proficient at dropping ignore cover templates all over them before they can assault. With the nova reactor, they deny fnp even.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.

The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.

Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood anfels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.

I'd never give gw that much money at this point. I'm super hesitant to get a single knight.

You can't borrow someone's spare army for a while?

Never thought about that before.

They don't even need to nova charge, just regular over charge for that.
But in particular, not units that are "supposedly good against riptides" but units in the game that are also good, at large.

Riptides are good, versus certain codecies, overwhelming, but hardly the only unit in that place.

But my purpose is not to put thunderwolf cavalry versus riptides in a 24" apart deployment 1v1.. its to compare the riptide versus other "good" units in the game and try and see if they are in the end better, worse (unlikely), about even, or specialized for 1 task.

An interesting exercise.

Dreadknight
Wraithknight
Wraith
Thunderwolf
Centurion
Imperial Knight
Daemon Prince
Flyrant
Wraithguard
Wyvern
Stormsurge
Sevrin Loth
Windriders
Darkshroud

What these all have in common is they all have a way to mitigate the amount of shooting coming at them. Whether it be through LoS blocking, good stats, psychic powers. They are reliable.

 pumaman1 wrote:
They don't even need to nova charge, just regular over charge for that.
But in particular, not units that are "supposedly good against riptides" but units in the game that are also good, at large.

Riptides are good, versus certain codecies, overwhelming, but hardly the only unit in that place.

But my purpose is not to put thunderwolf cavalry versus riptides in a 24" apart deployment 1v1.. its to compare the riptide versus other "good" units in the game and try and see if they are in the end better, worse (unlikely), about even, or specialized for 1 task.

I always get those two modes messed up.

I suppose it's very possible that the Riptide is the most durable thing for the points in the whole game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
An interesting exercise.

Dreadknight
Wraithknight
Wraith
Thunderwolf
Centurion
Imperial Knight
Daemon Prince
Flyrant
Wraithguard
Basilisk
Stormsurge
Tiggy
Sevrin Loth
Windriders
Darkshroud

Black Knights. HYMP missilesides.

Have I missed something regarding the Basilisk? Because last I looked it's nowhere near as good as the other units on that list.

The basilisk? i would pull that one as a hard no, with its large minimum range, and so easy to take out... and always scattering when used the designed way..

So in general, it appears that really killy units are more favored, from the 2 responses so far. I appreciate the dark shroud being added for its great utility.

and outside of the DarkShroud and eldar units, very very high durability units.

so what are some of the tactics you've used to beat/account for the units on this list? because everyone non-ork/DE have something there, even if i disagree with basilisk

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Have I missed something regarding the Basilisk? Because last I looked it's nowhere near as good as the other units on that list.

The Basilisk is currently a joke.
I think someone does not play IG

My apologies my local player proxies his basilisk as wyverns. I make that mistake pretty often, so if I ever say basilisk I mean wyvern.

 Quickjager wrote:
My apologies my local player proxies his basilisk as wyverns. I make that mistake pretty often, so if I ever say basilisk I mean wyvern.

Ahh, fair does then

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.

However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..

This Tau player thinks the new book is great, add the campaign books, wow. Power creep, very unbalanced compared to a few other books no doubt. The Riptide remains a beasts. Now take three of them at a time with no tax. Stupid.

 Byte wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.

However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..

This Tau player thinks the new book is great, add the campaign books, wow. Power creep, very unbalanced compared to a few other books no doubt. The Riptide remains a beasts. Now take three of them at a time with no tax. Stupid.

this thread in general agrees the riptide is good. and versus old/intentionally bad codecies (orks BA etc) overwhelming in most cases. HOWEVER it isn't unique in being overwhelming to those codecies. and to try and do a more fair comparison (not it sucks vs wraithknight, its too good versus walkers), lets try comparing it to other good units in the game, and try and see if it is comparable to other good units.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Byte wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.

However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..

This Tau player thinks the new book is great, add the campaign books, wow. Power creep, very unbalanced compared to a few other books no doubt. The Riptide remains a beasts. Now take three of them at a time with no tax. Stupid.

this thread in general agrees the riptide is good. and versus old/intentionally bad codecies (orks BA etc) overwhelming in most cases. HOWEVER it isn't unique in being overwhelming to those codecies. and to try and do a more fair comparison (not it sucks vs wraithknight, its too good versus walkers), lets try comparing it to other good units in the game, and try and see if it is comparable to other good units.

I agree that the firepower is way less than a Crusader Knight or, I don't know, unbuffed grav centurions. However, it's so much harder to kill on a per point basis than those things it's incredibly frustrating.

We've already seen that a Riptide in 4+ cover on average doesn't die to 4 Grav-centurions shooting it. Grav-centurions are tailored to murder 2+ armour save MCs and in this case costs almost 100 points less than the Gravturions, and that's not taking into account that the Gravturions only have 24" range on the cannons. Grav Skyhammer Devastators have an identical damage output to 4 Gravturions except they're much more vulnerable to getting Intercepted off the board before they even get to shoot. Grav-weapons, one of the cheesiest, most complained about (and rightly so) weapons in the game, doesn't really deal with Riptides. That's the level of silly we're talking.

RIght, walrus. But its not the only thing in the game. So what is your counter to a dreadknight? same toughness, same armor, possibly can get better invuls, has good melee, 1 less wound. can hide in terrain too.
Or how do you deal with thunderwolves, t5 cavalry with 3++ about 1/2 the time running your way?

and it was noted earlier that it should take much more to wipe a unit off the field in 1 turn that the unit costs. it doesn't make sense to field a 300 pt unit that is easily killed by 100 pts.
Or how do you deal with a dark shroud giving those ravenwing knights shroud in the open coming at you? there are a lot of good units that you cant kill in 1 shooting phase, how do you deal with these others?

if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.

 pumaman1 wrote:
RIght, walrus. But its not the only thing in the game. So what is your counter to a dreadknight? same toughness, same armor, possibly can get better invuls, has good melee, 1 less wound. can hide in terrain too.
Or how do you deal with thunderwolves, t5 cavalry with 3++ about 1/2 the time running your way?

and it was noted earlier that it should take much more to wipe a unit off the field in 1 turn that the unit costs. it doesn't make sense to field a 300 pt unit that is easily killed by 100 pts.
Or how do you deal with a dark shroud giving those ravenwing knights shroud in the open coming at you? there are a lot of good units that you cant kill in 1 shooting phase, how do you deal with these others?

if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.

I can make the Dreadknight come out of cover. Plus, it has no access to FNP. I murder these things left and right with god damn BA. They aren't even in the same conversation as Riptides to me.

TWC are another unit I'd put up there with the Riptide, but even they only rock a 3+ save or 3++ save, maybe with FNP, but it's still much easier to dakka them down than a Riptide.

Riptides can withstand fire from multiple units that cost much, much more than them. That seems a bit crazy to me.

 pumaman1 wrote:
if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.

I've seen this repeated many times and is right up there in the contest for most rediculous thing ever said on these forums. How? How does it benefit me to have one of my units (usually one specifically designed to counter the very thing that intercepted it) destroyed or crippled before it even gets to cast/shoot? Since the drone net hands out interceptor and BS3 to drones, the riptides can easily have marker support even during my turn.

 pumaman1 wrote:
RIght, walrus. But its not the only thing in the game. So what is your counter to a dreadknight? same toughness, same armor, possibly can get better invuls, has good melee, 1 less wound. can hide in terrain too.

The Dreadknight has to get in close to deal damage, forcing it to move into the teeth of your guns. The Riptide can kill you from a table away.

Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.

The difference is, the Dreadknight has to come to you and your army, You have to go towards the Riptide and the rest of the Tau army.

Which plays into the hands of any Tau player worth their salt.

 Drasius wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
if the riptide is using interceptor, its to your advantage. because then he cannot fire in his subsequent shooting phase, where he has markerlight support. or maybe play with taller terrain to block los.

I've seen this repeated many times and is right up there in the contest for most rediculous thing ever said on these forums. How? How does it benefit me to have one of my units (usually one specifically designed to counter the very thing that intercepted it) destroyed or crippled before it even gets to cast/shoot? Since the drone net hands out interceptor and BS3 to drones, the riptides can easily have marker support even during my turn.

how is: most players in my area aren't running drone nets. maybe yours is different. 2nd, bs3, so big scary template is going scatter >50% of the time. 3rd: maybe place them around the corner from the target unit so you can't be shot? or in terrain for a cover save and risk the dangerous terrain? or more than 1 unit at a time?
what are you bringing via deepstrike that is consistently destroyed every time? because maybe terminators aren't the solution

I get four to six times the shots against the dreadknight without even having to get to mid field. Plus gk can't pie plate all my guys to death. It actually has to come put itself in danger.

Yes, it can roll biomancy, but that's a lot of if come maybe versus the riptide's guaranteed fnp. Come play against both as ba and you'll immediately see the difference.

I can't force the riptide out of cover because nothing lives to get that close.

Dreadknights aren't allowed to roll on any table whatsoever. They've got one less wound, they don!' they FNP, and they don't remove stuff from the other side of the board starting turn 1, and it's still a great unit.

Thunderwolves similarly don't kill me from across the board, they have to come to me, which means I might actually get to charge something for once. 5 Thunderwolves are just 10 Marines in toughness for a MEQ with Furious Charge.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.

The difference is, the Dreadknight has to come to you and your army, You have to go towards the Riptide and the rest of the Tau army.

Which plays into the hands of any Tau player worth their salt.

but the dreadknight can move, shunt, and still charge. it can cover most the board just that fast. and if tau sit back and shoot, and you play with terrain, you've probably won the game on objectives

No it can't charge after it shunts. It has to stand there a turn and take it in the face.

Tau usually table me making objectives moot.

Martel732 wrote:
No it can't charge after it shunts. It has to stand there a turn and take it in the face.

This. I'd also like to emphasise once again that Dreadknights absolutely do not get to roll on any table. They've got Sanctuary and Banishment default, and that's it. No Iron Arm, no Endurance, no nuthin'.

Dreadknight routinely get raped by my dc. Why? They have to close on the grav bikers. In this scenario, I get to be the tau.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Dreadknights can roll on biomancy and get FNP with eternal warrior (not that it normally matters)
and you can make riptides leave cover just run near them, and they will back away out of cover.
i am so confused that a dreadknight, which is 1 wound different (5+ invul, can get cover with good shooty weapons, can psychic a fnp (sometimes) 2+ armor, better bs, better ws) but a riptide is worse..
i am sorry, but either the person you play who has tau most often cheats, or you need to buy new dice, because you shouldn't be able to murder a dreadknight, but just flail uselessly against a riptide.
if it literally is just cover, then literally just spend the points until you have enough divination psykers to get presence and perfect timing. or telephathy and invis.

The difference is, the Dreadknight has to come to you and your army, You have to go towards the Riptide and the rest of the Tau army.

Which plays into the hands of any Tau player worth their salt.

but the dreadknight can move, shunt, and still charge. it can cover most the board just that fast. and if tau sit back and shoot, and you play with terrain, you've probably won the game on objectives

cant charge when it shunts