Riptide status

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**Martel732**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Ah you mean prices in real life?

I feel that brother. That's why I prefer theorycrafting

I mean both, really.

**Jancoran**

Never attempt to JUSTIFY a hobby and it's price. it cannot be done. Accept that it will be an expensive brand of fun and key in on the the word fun.

I know Martel is doing some kind of GW strike and not buying anything from them but there's EBay which is your friend and other sources.

But there will never be a justification for what I have done to my garage. It is senseless to even try to explain that to anyone else.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Ah you mean prices in real life?

I feel that brother. That's why I prefer theorycrafting

The RL price is...kinda up there. Points-wise it IS too expensive. You talked about its near immunity to Scatterbikes, but do Scatterbikes actually need to target it? After all, they don't carry a lot of firepower for the points, and as transports they aren't great, seeing that anything potentially assaulting Scatterbikes won't do it until around T3.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jancoran wrote:
Never attempt to JUSTIFY a hobby and it's price. it cannot be done. Accept that it will be an expensive brand of fun and key in on the the word fun.

I know Martel is doing some kind of GW strike and not buying anything from them but there's EBay which is your friend and other sources.

But there will never be a justification for what I have done to my garage. It is senseless to even try to explain that to anyone else.

This is one of the only things you've said that was correct.

**Martel732**

I ignore GK SRs for entire games, so I'm sure Eldar can do the same to BA SRs. SRs just can't do enough damage.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
I ignore GK SRs for entire games, so I'm sure Eldar can do the same to BA SRs. SRs just can't do enough damage.

Well I guess you'll find out, won't you?

**Yoyoyo**

SR are not there for shooting output. They are for :

1) null deployment potential (the formation enters on T1)
2) transporting Teleport Homers into position for zero scatter, charge from Deepstrike (Augur Triangulation)
3) force protection (the Obsec Tacs inside cannot be targeted)
4) as assault vehicles (10x Tacs with attached ICs as necessary).

The idea is nothing will be targeted effectively. That means you get into CC without suffering from the kind of massive attrition that Martel complains about. SR shooting is poor, but that's not why I'm exploring them. You don't have to win every game by shooting, and in the case of Riptides, it's the least effective solution to pursue.

**Jancoran**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

This is one of the only things you've said that was correct.

Sure, man. Sure.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
SR are not there for shooting output. They are for :

1) null deployment potential (the formation enters on T1)
2) transporting Teleport Homers into position for zero scatter, charge from Deepstrike (Augur Triangulation)
3) force protection (the Obsec Tacs inside cannot be targeted)
4) as assault vehicles (10x Tacs with attached ICs as necessary).

The idea is nothing will be targeted effectively. That means you get into CC without suffering from the kind of massive attrition that Martel complains about. SR shooting is poor, but that's not why I'm exploring them. You don't have to win every game by shooting, and in the case of Riptides, it's the least effective solution to pursue.

Quoted for truth

**Yoyoyo**

There's other options. Smoke Launcher and Lucius Drop Pod can give an AV13/12/12 Furioso a 3+ cover save. Not cool for Tau.

Think about survivability and deployment, not just how many plasma or Grav guns you can cram into a list.

**Martel732**

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's other options. Smoke Launcher and Lucius Drop Pod can give an AV13/12/12 Furioso a 3+ cover save. Not cool for Tau.

Think about survivability and deployment, not just how many plasma or Grav guns you can cram into a list.

Not cool for Tau until they remove the cover. I guess it contributes to marker light depletion. That never seems to work, though. There's always another marker light for these guys.

**Jancoran**

Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.

You can't saturate Tau in my experience. At least, not with BA. Too many overcosted units. They have the firepower to remove 1200 pts of BA in a single turn of shooting, leaving 600 pts left to take on everything.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.

You can't saturate Tau in my experience.

Ironically i showed you how to saturate with them. So they really can, Martel. They really can. If my Night Lords can, you certainly can.

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Not always. and not always that can target as many units as it would like. Saturation is a thing.

You can't saturate Tau in my experience.

Ironically i showed you how to saturate with them. So they really can, Martel. They really can. If my Night Lords can, you certainly can.

No, I really don't think so. BA have nothing as efficient as chaos spawn or mutilators to do your particular scheme. Furiosos really can't do what you think they can in 7th ed. HPs have ruined them. And that list you suggested was way over on points, so it wouldn't even have the models you listed.

**Jancoran**

OK. I think this thread is good to go now.

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
OK. I think this thread is good to go now.

Is your ego so huge that you can't handle it when someone questions a list you post for an army you don't even play?

**Arson Fire**

I wouldn't write off storm ravens.
I regularly face a BA player who commonly brings 3 of them. They are pretty damn terrifying to deal with, particularly for my tyranids. Possibly just because we lack any reliable means of dealing with them.

They've got the firepower to deal with multiple flying hive tyrants on the turn they arrive. Surviving tyrants struggle to damage them back (and tyrants are about the only way nids can damage them anyway). Any ground based monstrous creature gets curbstomped by a librarian dreadnaught with force weapons charging out of a stormraven next turn.

Commonly combined with dropping lucius pods full of fragnaughts in front of any ground-based threat. The dreadnaughts sit inside the pods for an extra 3 hullpoints while firing out, then can assault out of the pods next turn.

Most tyranid monstrous creatures really don't want to be in close combat with a dreadnaught. Riptides are the same.

**Martel732**

Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
OK. I think this thread is good to go now.

Is your ego so huge that you can't handle it when someone questions a list you post for an army you don't even play?

Newp.

**Yoyoyo**

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.

Lib Dreadnought has Instant Death at S10 AP2 through Force and can buff initiative with Quickening, that's not exactly trivial.

**Arson Fire**

Martel732 wrote:
Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.

S6 attacks mean nothing to an AV13 dreadnaught. So you're forced to smash. Giving you a single attack (50% chance to miss!) on something with 3 hullpoints. Meanwhile it's hitting you back with multiple attacks, hitting you on 3+ and wounding on 2's.
Trust me. No tyranid MC wants to be anywhere near them.

The stormravens can't be ignored. They have enough firepower between them to focus down pretty much any unit, and be just about anywhere they want offloading units.

**Martel732**

Arson Fire wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.

S6 attacks mean nothing to an AV13 dreadnaught. So you're forced to smash. Giving you a single attack (50% chance to miss!) on something with 3 hullpoints. Meanwhile it's hitting you back with multiple attacks, hitting you on 3+ and wounding on 2's.
Trust me. No tyranid MC wants to be anywhere near them.

MCs get two penetration dice. MC USR ftw. Dreads don't want to be anywhere near MCs. Any MC. Trust me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arson Fire wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ignore them, then. The BA player just wasted 600 pts minimum on units that can't really hurt you, and don't usually score objectives.

Tyranid MCs should be stomping dreadnoughts. 2D6 on armor pen makes it easy to HP them out. That's on top of penetration results.

S6 attacks mean nothing to an AV13 dreadnaught. So you're forced to smash. Giving you a single attack (50% chance to miss!) on something with 3 hullpoints. Meanwhile it's hitting you back with multiple attacks, hitting you on 3+ and wounding on 2's.
Trust me. No tyranid MC wants to be anywhere near them.

The stormravens can't be ignored. They have enough firepower between them to focus down pretty much any unit, and be just about anywhere they want offloading units.

Yeah, they can. I do it all the time. They are overcosted flyers. My record against GK lists is proportional with how many points they waste on SRs.

**Arson Fire**

Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.

**Yoyoyo**

Armies are not simply the sum of their parts... that's the problem with just talking about units in a vacuum.

**Martel732**

Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.

My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.

**Kanluwen**

Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.

Warhammer 40,000: The Rules p171 wrote:
SMASH
All of the close combat attacks, except Hammer of Wrath attacks, of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP2 (unless it's attacking with an AP1 weapon). Additionally, when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose instead to make a single Smash Attack. If it does so, roll To Hit as normal, but resolve the attack at double the model's Strength (to a maximum of 10). Furthermore, a model making a Smash Attack can re-roll its armour penetration rolls, but must abide by the second result.

Just so we have the whole rule in play. MCs/GMCs are ALWAYS AP2 in close combat, unless they have an AP1 weapon or are making a HoW attack.

Martel, you might not have been cheated but rather been fighting one of the FW variant Carnifexes. I believe that one of them has the Armourbane special rule for its CCW.

**Arson Fire**

Martel732 wrote:
My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.

That's all good.
I don't think MCs have had native 2d6 armour pen since 5th edition.
However in 6th smash was quite a lot stronger. You just halved your attacks (rounding up, and still getting charge bonuses on top), giving MCs enough S10 attacks to wreck most things.
It's only in 7th with the nerf to smash that they've started having a much harder time with vehicles.

Kanluwen wrote:

Martel, you might not have been cheated but rather been fighting one of the FW variant Carnifexes. I believe that one of them has the Armourbane special rule for its CCW.

Tyranids don't need to go to forgeworld to get armourbane.
But you can only put it on tervigons (where it mainly just discourages dreads from charging the gaunt-pooper), or carnifexes (which are the one thing that doesn't really need it).

Haruspexes also come with it, but those are kinda terrible and no one ever takes them.

**Byte**

BoomWolf wrote:
Byte wrote:
Byte wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?

Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.

(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)

I was simply answering a question. I could have easily just as said FSC with velocity tracking HYMP Missilesides. I don't usually bother to much with marker lights. TL'd volume of fire works just fine.

About the Missilehead, BS4, 4 TL'd str 7 that can choose to shoot ground and air targets at full BS. How is AV12 safe?

Because S7, even with great accuracy, does not get passed AV12 all that often. a missilehead shooting at AV12 flyer will average out 0.59 glances and 0.59 pens. that's not enough to down your average plane. and given the lack of interceptor, the plane has a chance to shoot first, and many planes carry anti-tank guns that will force the hammer to jink, greatly reducing his threat.
Naturally the 3 hammers WILL take down a raven if it won't jink, but 3 hammers also cost far more than a single raven they cost almost like two. and he will have the first shot, and between its multimelta, missiles and lascannon, it will force a jink, and perhaps take one down anyway. so they are having a decent standoff where either may win. by unlike the hammer, the raven is not a dedicated shooter, but a transport with guns.
It not useless by all means, but its not exactly a hard counter.

The FSC with VT on its suits is all around is far more threatening, but has its own issues (less mobile so getting clear off it's range is easier, and the broadsides are FAR easier to remove, especially by aircraft)
For pure AA usage, I'd also consider the new Air Superiority Cadre. its surprisingly good given how lackluster razorsharks are. you will almost always catch rear shots with it when relevant, and skywatch almost assures you will have the drop on him in perfect timing.

Byte wrote:
I use all variants of Hammerheads. I fav is the 2 long barreled burst cannon BS4, Str5, ap5, hvy12 36". I usually take those in 3s with the skyray.

Heres a 1850 list I use when I'm feeling grumpy.

AIC- LBBCheadsx3, skyray VT
FSC- H burst cannon-tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
FSC- H burst cannon tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
Riptidewing- Ion-tidesx3, EWO, VT

That's a 1850 list comes in at 1810.
For 2000, I reduce some VT and add a Drone net. (scoring and marking)

I only use this when I play good sports. I would never play a pick up game with this and my local events don't usually allow multiple detachments.

Heh. cute list.
More than enough AA, a lot of anti-interceptor, good shot count for hordes between dakkaheads, dakkatides and broadsides, and you army consists of mostly hard targets.
Dakkaheads are amusing. I keep trying to find chances to use them just for the "HUH?!" effect, especially with the overwatch upgrade.

Well, tearing this list apart....
No real marker support, so any cover save (ab)user is going to work well, and your dakkatides cant aim well.
Little in terms of heavy duty anti-tank means high AV is also a big concern.
No stims on riptides means every NOVA you make is a risk, and the HBCtides won't be nearly as threatening (BS3, no

Depending on my list, the "soft spots" for me to attack will be either:
The FSCs-broadsides are not that hard to kill, HBCtide too dependant on his NOVA to deal damage, so they will hurt themselves a bit.
The AIC-some anti tank guns should fix these, or at least force jink saves-and while jinked, the threat is reduced. can't trust on deepstrikers though, so my long guns/fast assault will have to do. (depending what army I'm playing)

The ripwing, I'll probably choose to just avoid and take cover until I take down the rest. they don't do too much damage without marker support.

Also, if I have any AV14-you are in trouble. your only real answer is the dakkatides, and they are not exactly the go-to solution here. even hen NOVA is active and tank hunter, without marks you are looking at 1 damage result, MAYBE 2.

This list might do fine in a competitive scene, but I suspect the lack of markerlights will hold it back.
I'd be glad to face it. will probably lose my first attempt as I am heavy into deepstrike with my tau-but I believe my "dream renegades" list will win with relative ease, had I had the models.

Cute list? Smug much? Seems you have a very high opinion of your game. Good for you I guess. You got it all figured out.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I know Blood Angels are in a gak spot, but I didn't realize Martel was being cheated against either.

**Martel732**

It's actually been a while since I closely paid attention to the dice that MCs were throwing against vehicles/walkers. It's not like the Eldar ever have to assault a furioso. It's partially my fault for assuming MCs murder everything they touch without trying hard.

**BoomWolf**

Byte wrote:
-snip-
Cute list? Smug much? Seems you have a very high opinion of your game. Good for you I guess. You got it all figured out.

"Cute list" is a praise, not an insult-at least from the way of speaking in my area. maybe it sounds differently when written over the internet.
What I was practically saying (and wrote clearly in the end of the post), is that its a pretty darn solid list. it has a few weaknesses I pointed out-but its strong.

Martel732 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.

My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.

Now I have having a dreaded suspicion.
Martel, this MC rules are not around from the days of 5th. MC smashing also reduces to 1 attack in 7th. (and 7th is around for quite a while)

What are the odds that many of the things that we suggested and you outright called to not work, were because you are using a mash of old and new rules that greatly reduce their effectiveness?