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2020/03/11 17:30:11
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
I replied to Polonius, who dismissed Vulcan's experience and implied that he was probably bitter or a fool.
I am sorry, I do find that dismissive and condescending.
As for leaving, listen, I would like to.Not because I want a promotion, I do not, but because the incompetent people above me who are more focused on their own advancement than doing our core job properly make my life a misery. But for some of us, that is not always an option, especially not suddenly. I have a sick wife who needs me to keep things steady so she can focus on recovery as best she can. So I am gonna stick with it, do my best, argue against stupid or unethical decisions and do my core job.
Some of this self help stuff is applicable and sensible to bring up. But putting absolutely everything at the individual's door also absolves the system of responsibility, and particularly those with more power in the system.
So far as the system.... ugh, I really don't ever expect anything from it other. Maybe my POV is skewed because I'm American and not particularly well-travelled.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2020/03/11 17:39:38
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
It genuinely is helpful for some people to hear the self help style, you gotta make the change yourself kind of stuff. But I do see it as a more American approach that is much more individualistic and tends to ignore systemic problems and let the powerful off the hook.
But I am sure both yourself and Polonius are giving genuine advice from your point of view.
Ouze wrote: You guys who are never getting promotions and are blaming it on being "too technically focused" and losing out to people who can't deliver anything other than smooth talk... I think you should maybe look inward a little and reflect. I'm saying this, hand to heart, trying to be helpful and not crappy.
Either you actually have some unacknowledged problems with your soft skills - which are required to some degree just to function will with other human beings, and increasingly so as your job gets increasingly skilled - or you work at highly dysfunctional organizations, in which case you are wasting your time and should be seeking employment elsewhere (taking whatever steps necessary to make yourself more employable, as needed).
Either way, the next steps belong to you.
Unless, of course, you are happy where you are! In that case, no worries.
Soft skills are great and all, but if the people getting promotions are doing it because I'm carrying half OR MORE of their workload just so I can get MY job done on time, because they're too busy schmoozing the boss to DO their work in a timely manner...
Well, you can imagine how that might impact one's workplace attitude. Sure, they have GREAT attitudes, they're only doing half their own work! And my attitude sucks, sure, because I'm doing THREE TIMES THE WORK THEY ARE!
I have bad news for you. If you want to read it..... keep going. If you don;t want to know, just skip the rest of this post. Keep in mind, it is coming from a place of love.
No one cares about the worker bees that put their head down and get things done. That is the BASELINE for getting promoted. It is all the stuff beyond the core work that matters. No one wants to interview a prospect and hear about "This one time I did what I was supposed to do." They want to hear about all the times you went above and beyond your core role in a way that made life better for the customer, the business, and for your team.
As an executive, my job is to move work down the chain, so I can free up my time to work up the chain. Why are you doing their workload? If you are the one that the work is moving down to.... you need to think about how you do your work so that you can start spending time working up the chain too. It is not about working hard.... it is about working in a way that makes you visible.
If you are not doing the job of the person above you before the position is even available, you aren't going to be moving into that job. As you do more of the person above you's job, that frees up their time to do the job of the person above them. Then, when they move guess who the natural successor is. You. You need to position yourself as the person to do the job before the job is even available.
I find getting a mentor to take me under their wing at least two steps above my current role is very helpful in understanding the promotion process and track within your company. However, to get a mentor you need to take initiative and find one.
Just how it has worked for me. Your mileage may vary.
If I wait for them to do their own job, my job never gets done. I HAVE TO do their job for them, because I need their job done FIRST before I start MINE. Otherwise they wait until the last minute to do theirs, leaving me NO time to do my job and I am the one who gets in trouble, not them.
Why? Because the boss likes them because they spend half the day chatting about nothing.
Mr. Executive, does this sound like you're creating the most productive and engaged workforce? From here it looks like you're paying someone to NOT work (inefficient), and actively DISenganging another (also inefficient). Perhaps you should come down to the level of the workerbee a bit more often and see what's actually going on. You'd probably save a bundle by NOT employing the ones who DON'T WORK, making more profit and increasing your own bonus.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2020/03/11 19:23:39
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Da Boss wrote: I replied to Polonius, who dismissed Vulcan's experience and implied that he was probably bitter or a fool.
I am sorry, I do find that dismissive and condescending.
As for leaving, listen, I would like to.Not because I want a promotion, I do not, but because the incompetent people above me who are more focused on their own advancement than doing our core job properly make my life a misery. But for some of us, that is not always an option, especially not suddenly. I have a sick wife who needs me to keep things steady so she can focus on recovery as best she can. So I am gonna stick with it, do my best, argue against stupid or unethical decisions and do my core job.
Some of this self help stuff is applicable and sensible to bring up. But putting absolutely everything at the individual's door also absolves the system of responsibility, and particularly those with more power in the system.
This. Altbough in my case it's a wife with two little kids who's having to adjust to a different culture while still learning the language
2020/03/11 19:32:47
Subject: Re:Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Ouze wrote: You guys who are never getting promotions and are blaming it on being "too technically focused" and losing out to people who can't deliver anything other than smooth talk... I think you should maybe look inward a little and reflect. I'm saying this, hand to heart, trying to be helpful and not crappy.
Either you actually have some unacknowledged problems with your soft skills - which are required to some degree just to function will with other human beings, and increasingly so as your job gets increasingly skilled - or you work at highly dysfunctional organizations, in which case you are wasting your time and should be seeking employment elsewhere (taking whatever steps necessary to make yourself more employable, as needed).
Either way, the next steps belong to you.
Unless, of course, you are happy where you are! In that case, no worries.
Soft skills are great and all, but if the people getting promotions are doing it because I'm carrying half OR MORE of their workload just so I can get MY job done on time, because they're too busy schmoozing the boss to DO their work in a timely manner...
Well, you can imagine how that might impact one's workplace attitude. Sure, they have GREAT attitudes, they're only doing half their own work! And my attitude sucks, sure, because I'm doing THREE TIMES THE WORK THEY ARE!
I have bad news for you. If you want to read it..... keep going. If you don;t want to know, just skip the rest of this post. Keep in mind, it is coming from a place of love.
No one cares about the worker bees that put their head down and get things done. That is the BASELINE for getting promoted. It is all the stuff beyond the core work that matters. No one wants to interview a prospect and hear about "This one time I did what I was supposed to do." They want to hear about all the times you went above and beyond your core role in a way that made life better for the customer, the business, and for your team.
As an executive, my job is to move work down the chain, so I can free up my time to work up the chain. Why are you doing their workload? If you are the one that the work is moving down to.... you need to think about how you do your work so that you can start spending time working up the chain too. It is not about working hard.... it is about working in a way that makes you visible.
If you are not doing the job of the person above you before the position is even available, you aren't going to be moving into that job. As you do more of the person above you's job, that frees up their time to do the job of the person above them. Then, when they move guess who the natural successor is. You. You need to position yourself as the person to do the job before the job is even available.
I find getting a mentor to take me under their wing at least two steps above my current role is very helpful in understanding the promotion process and track within your company. However, to get a mentor you need to take initiative and find one.
Just how it has worked for me. Your mileage may vary.
If I wait for them to do their own job, my job never gets done. I HAVE TO do their job for them, because I need their job done FIRST before I start MINE. Otherwise they wait until the last minute to do theirs, leaving me NO time to do my job and I am the one who gets in trouble, not them.
Why? Because the boss likes them because they spend half the day chatting about nothing.
Mr. Executive, does this sound like you're creating the most productive and engaged workforce? From here it looks like you're paying someone to NOT work (inefficient), and actively DISenganging another (also inefficient). Perhaps you should come down to the level of the workerbee a bit more often and see what's actually going on. You'd probably save a bundle by NOT employing the ones who DON'T WORK, making more profit and increasing your own bonus.
Yes, you are right. Too many executives and managers do NOT go down and follow the workflow and never walk the processes they are in charge of overseeing. They do not get the input and information from the people who actually do the work. I see it far too often, and it is a scourge in the modern workplace.
I recommend looking at it as a process that is broken, it is not about any individual, but the process itself. If we swapped in different people at various places in the process, could the same thing happen? If the answer is yes, the process is broken. As a downstream person, you will ALWAYS be subject to upstream delays. Therefore, the process needs a tweak to avoid this issues around the "Waste of Waiting/Motion/Transportation".
So, what have you done to document the process and create trackable workflows to help you tell the story without being perceived as the "problem"? Have you created a workflow that demonstrates the impact of each step and how they are interrelated in the process? The expected vs. current time at each step (including your own) and bulleted out common pain points? Have you documented any of the work steps you completed and how often? Have you reached out for support from your peers and documented their response with the boss on CC? If the boss is not responding, what is your relationship with their boss? Who else is impacted below you in the process? What is happening to their work stream?
I ask, because there is a good likelihood that the boss doesn't know any of this, because they are not properly walking the process flow. If the Boss doesn't know, they can not help you. Right now, the Boss is only hearing the point of view of the people that talk to him. This of course is excluding your own voice.
Boring Storytime:
I recall the big turning point in my career. I was telling my leader about a broken process and looked expectantly at them to fix it.
They said, "What are you going to do about it?"
I blinked twice, momentarily stunned and said, "I did do something. I told you."
"That's not doing something about it. That is complaining about it. How are you going to fix it?"
"I can fix it?"
"Yes, tell me what you think it should look like, and what you will need to build to make it look like that; then get back to me."
So, I did. My life became easier, my boss looked good, and I was suddenly on the radar for advancement. I had differentiated myself from my colleagues as not only could I find problems, but I figured out ways to fix them.
After that, I have never been the victim of a broken process or my work colleagues again. I was always making choices and putting together ways to make my own life easier. These methods typically helped my peers, my reports, the customer, and ultimately the company. I have been climbing ever since, and all I ever have to do is to try and be as lazy as possible. I have picked up better tools and ways to share my ideas in a way that my bosses can grasp or care about along the way; and some of those were technical certifications even. However, it was always in service of learning to speak the language of the people I needed to influence so I could be lazy.
Who would have thought that ruthless laziness was the key to corporate ladder climbing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 19:33:35
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2020/03/11 20:04:17
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Da Boss wrote: I replied to Polonius, who dismissed Vulcan's experience and implied that he was probably bitter or a fool.
I am sorry, I do find that dismissive and condescending.
You're right, I could have been more diplomatic.
There are people genuinely stuck in a position, due to family issues or other factors, who really can't afford to rock the boat or leave. And sure, that's a crappy position to be in. Not for nothing, but if you ever see a decent middle manager, they are probably in that very situation themselves. At the end of the day, ladders don't all go that high, and most of us end up in dead end jobs of some comfort level or another.
But yes, workplaces will absolutely allow people who work hard to do far more than their share. At the end of the day, hard working people tend to work hard because they are wired to work hard. It sounds callous, but it's also true. Also, most places have more people able to work hard than are good at communicating or leading. the tragedy is that a lot of really hard working people are more afraid of looking lazy than they are bothered by doing more than their share, so they take on work they don't need to do.
As Easy E made clearer in his very fine reply, if you're doing work to cover for another person, that's something you should probably share with your boss. If they simply shrug their shoulders, than you have a terrible boss and probably want to move on. If not, then just, you know, stop covering. Document why you can't do something. But you know, "managing up" is also one of those dreaded soft skills.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Easy E wrote: After that, I have never been the victim of a broken process or my work colleagues again. I was always making choices and putting together ways to make my own life easier. These methods typically helped my peers, my reports, the customer, and ultimately the company. I have been climbing ever since, and all I ever have to do is to try and be as lazy as possible. I have picked up better tools and ways to share my ideas in a way that my bosses can grasp or care about along the way; and some of those were technical certifications even. However, it was always in service of learning to speak the language of the people I needed to influence so I could be lazy.
Who would have thought that ruthless laziness was the key to corporate ladder climbing?
I had a boss who used to say "if I did my job perfectly, all I would need to do is sign the documents only I can sign, and everybody else would do everything." That's not laziness, it's delegation and good management. Only bad managers want people to work harder, faster, or longer. Good managers want to get more work done, which often means working less, not more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 20:06:08
2020/03/11 20:14:40
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
It takes cajones, but HR aren’t just there to sack the little people.
I once ‘ratted’ on a couple of colleagues who were accessing documents they really shouldn’t have been. Was even password protected, and contained lots of personal details. I was pooping myself throughout, but they wound up sacked, and I garnered further respect.
If you feel a manager is letting someone away with clear underperformance, and may have an inadvisably close relationship (not even that far, I know what you were thinking!) document it. Make a log of each time you had to cover for the slacker. Document what your manager says when you challenge them etc. Keep it written down.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
In a caring profession, you are often not covering for a colleague, but making sure the people who depend on you are not left short.
I mean the advice you are giving is also good advice. You should do those things. Recently I sent my employer a detailed explanation of my hours and the workload I was dealing with, and why it was unsustainable. They acknowledged it was crazy and wrong but also said they saw no alternative in the short term as there was no one else with my skillset to do this work in the organisatiion (due to the fact that they asked me last year if they needed to hire another person with my skillset and I said "Yes, absolutely" and they chose not to advertise the position even. I dunno why.)
Anyway, while explaining this stuff it became apparent that my managers THOUGHT they knew what my job was, but actually had no idea about pretty core parts of the job, and therefore no idea how much time was required. This meant they thought staff had loads of free time to do all their little pet initiatives when they actually do not. (In my example, they did not realise that each piece of coursework I submit has to be thoroughly annotated, a process that takes 1-2 hours per piece of coursework if you do it properly and which if you do it poorly can negatively impact student attainment).
I was shocked. I had considered the main role of a manager to be to understand the workload and workflow of their staff and then assign work packages as best as possible to meet the goal of the organisation. I think they see it more as a way to pursue pet projects and gain status and power.
Anyway. I readily admit that my workplace is dysfunctional, but I reckon that is honestly more common than not. Like I said, good managers are like gold dust, and good middle managers are possibly some of the most critical people in any organisations. I do not hate managers, they are doing a difficult job that I have literally turned down because I percieve it as too difficult for me to do properly. But I definitely think there are basic things every manager needs to have their eye on.
As to colleague under performance, I will give people a break for a good long while, maybe up to 6 months, as I don't know what they might be going through. After that I will stop helping them. If they do something unethical, I will report them. (Not like you have a choice with that, in my line of work).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 20:16:24
Vulcan wrote: If I wait for them to do their own job, my job never gets done. I HAVE TO do their job for them, because I need their job done FIRST before I start MINE. Otherwise they wait until the last minute to do theirs, leaving me NO time to do my job and I am the one who gets in trouble, not them.
Why? Because the boss likes them because they spend half the day chatting about nothing.
Mr. Executive, does this sound like you're creating the most productive and engaged workforce? From here it looks like you're paying someone to NOT work (inefficient), and actively DISenganging another (also inefficient). Perhaps you should come down to the level of the workerbee a bit more often and see what's actually going on. You'd probably save a bundle by NOT employing the ones who DON'T WORK, making more profit and increasing your own bonus.
You can get mad at getting advice you don't like, but at least try to listen when you rebut it.
Executives are usually at least three levels away from real work. You have pure workers, front line supervisors (with authority varying widely, but tend to focus on carrying out plans), middle managers (who tend to focus on creating plans of action based on goals and strategies) and executives (who create the goals and strategies). Usually middle managers are the highest people to actually know individual workers, and the lowest people who regularly affect an organizations big picture.
So no, the only way an executive would know that Joe Schmo on the line is holding up work due to screwing around with a supervisor would be if somebody told him, and that means probably a middle manager. You need to message this stuff up the chain if you want anybody to fix it.
2020/03/11 21:03:54
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
The only problem I see with that scenario is that 9 times out of 10, it's those middle managers who are the problem.
I know they are in the company I work for. What's worse is the few who are good at their job are swamped trying to keep things running...
2020/03/11 21:05:23
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Da Boss wrote: I was shocked. I had considered the main role of a manager to be to understand the workload and workflow of their staff and then assign work packages as best as possible to meet the goal of the organisation. I think they see it more as a way to pursue pet projects and gain status and power.
You're conflating three different topics here. The role of a manager is broadly to accomplish organizational objectives through other people. The tools and skills of management includes understating workload and workflow, as well as understanding team member strengths and weakness, and many, many other things. and finally, people seek out or stay in management for many reasons, and status/power is usually the main one.
I'd agree that a good manager should understand what their people do, how they spend their time, etc. I think it's pretty obvious based on this thread that many managers are bad at their jobs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bran Dawri wrote: The only problem I see with that scenario is that 9 times out of 10, it's those middle managers who are the problem.
I know they are in the company I work for. What's worse is the few who are good at their job are swamped trying to keep things running...
I was specifically addressing the accusation of what an executive should do.
Middle management is the classic dumping ground for the peter principle. It's frankly the rung of the ladder that can go the longest being incompetent, but eventually poor middle management catches up with an organization, usually because front line supervisors are acting inconsistently and often improperly
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 21:09:01
2020/03/11 21:42:16
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
I'm a middle school language arts teacher, for 11-14 year olds (middle school here). I do very much enjoy my job. After 14 years in, the pay finally clicked over to where I think I'm well compensated for my efforts, and next year I'll be 15 years out from retirement- my break even year. After I learned to stop worrying about evaluations, and concentrate on how best to teach my students, I became a much better teacher, and the job got much easier. Because teaching is a non-competitive profession, you start at the top. There's nowhere to go. So you hone your lessons, sharpen your skills, and always try your best to help new teachers stay in the field- because it chews them up fast. But the more experience the teachers around you have the easier the job gets.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
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Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
2020/03/11 21:47:48
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
I’d like to back up Polonious’ earlier point, but purely from my own experience.
See, up until I was 30, I was a bit of a male chicken. Full of myself, and always believed I knew best.
Then? I got honest feedback. Funnily enough from GW. I’d gone for a full time position, and fluffed the interview. And that feedback changed my life. It was the first time I’d had to acknowledge that I was the problem. And indeed the first time I’d ever been told why I’d failed the interview.
Now, remember, this is me talking about me (for a change ) and is only referring to myself.
After that? How do the Space Wolves put it in the Heresy novels? Probably not quite right, but “I recognise my failing , and will be sure to correct it”. (Googled it in the end! Bloody good quote!)
Man that seriously changed my life. I started listening to feedback, and acting on it. Even when I felt it was overly harsh, I still acknowledged I am not the best judge of my own actions. None of us are.
I learned to take that metaphorical step back, and start seeing the forest for the trees.
Now, 10 years later? I’m doing so, so well. That slapdown left a mark, and it’s a mark I cherish.
Final time, this is only me talking about me. I seriously hope none of you were the butthole I was at the time. But I also hope you’ll read this, and maybe take a minute or two to also step back, take a bit of a breather, and try to see yourself as others might do.
It’s a harsh lesson, but one definitely worth taking on board
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/11 21:51:02
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Then? I got honest feedback. Funnily enough from GW. I’d gone for a full time position, and fluffed the interview. And that feedback changed my life. It was the first time I’d had to acknowledge that I was the problem. And indeed the first time I’d ever been told why I’d failed the interview.
That's a tough moment, so good on you for taking advantage.
The thing is... our minds are really good at creating ego defenses. We chalk up losing out on things to politics, or favoritism, or some conspiracy... when sometimes you really aren't as ready for the next step as you think.
I spent about three years interviewing for jobs at my current level, and my skills and abilities between when I first started interviewing and when I was selected are vastly different.
2020/03/11 22:00:09
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I
Now, 10 years later? I’m doing so, so well. That slapdown left a mark, and it’s a mark I cherish.
You can do two things with failure. You can double down and ignore it or learn from it. The biggest failings in my life left the biggest formative teaching experiences. Nothing teaches complacency like success.
2020/03/11 22:12:45
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
All depends on feedback. If there’s none forthcoming, there’s nothing to really learn from.
When I went for my current position (four or so years ago. Maybe a smidge longer) I again received honest feedback.
Not a ‘no’ in Nice Terms. But not brutally honest. For me, just the right mix. That meant I could focus on where they didn’t feel I was up to snuff, and work on them.
It’s not been a smooth road (fun with mental elf!), but my managers have always commented and remarked on my ability to take feedback square on the chin.
Is that a soft skill? Possibly, possibly not. I’ve only ever been me, so cannot comment for anyone else, and certainly won’t paint things in broad strokes.
But that learning has genuinely served me well. Even now, I’m tempted, now and again, to Just Go For It with promotion. Not recklessly so, just the ‘reckon I squeak this’ type of confidence. Feeling 51% ready if you will. Because I can trust my employee to give similar feedback, and from there know exactly where I stand, and work from there.
I know that besides the pay and manifold benefits, that I’m incredibly, incredibly lucky to have that sort of employer.
But equally.....do you know what I never did beforehand? Actually al for feedback.
Granted if it’s an entirely new employer you’re whistling in the wind on that one. But if it’s your current employer? Just ask. Constructively.
What do I mean by constructively? Don’t be confrontational. That’s not gonna get anyone anywhere, ever. Instead, couch in terms akin to “did they say what or where I wasn’t quite right for the role” type stuff. Open question. Don’t be defensive, don’t be disgruntled (not with the question). Open a dialogue. Ask your current boss or your boss’ boss to help come up with an action plan type thing. Not a mere tick box exercise.
Where I am professionally, that also helps show you’re taking it seriously and not just climbing for the sake of climbing the ladder.
No, it’s not easy. But I have to date found it immensely rewarding.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I
Now, 10 years later? I’m doing so, so well. That slapdown left a mark, and it’s a mark I cherish.
You can do two things with failure. You can double down and ignore it or learn from it. The biggest failings in my life left the biggest formative teaching experiences. Nothing teaches complacency like success.
Bang on, in my experience.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 22:13:13
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Easy E wrote: No one cares about the worker bees that put their head down and get things done. That is the BASELINE for getting promoted. It is all the stuff beyond the core work that matters.
So much this. I don't know how many appraisals I've given over the years, but the core of the interview has remained the same for a while. It usually goes something like...
Young guy: I'm really good at my job but I keep getting passed for promotion.
Me: When it comes to promotion, nobody gives a if you are good at your current job. You are supposed to be good at it as a minimum but that doesn't entitle you to be promoted.
Young guy: But that's not fair and the system is broken if people who are good at their job don't get promoted.
Me: No, that's exactly how the system is supposed to work.
Young guy: WT!
I then have to follow this up with a lengthy chat but the essence remains the same. Most people just don't understand how promotion works and therefor think it is unfair and their managers are crap. Those who take the time to reflect and learn undoubtedly very quickly become suitable for promotion
(christ - I've been doing this so long the words spill out like second nature)
2020/03/11 23:52:58
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Tbf there is a difference between this scenario and actual workflow and organisational issues and politicking within companies or any hierarchy.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/03/12 09:30:13
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Bran Dawri wrote: The only problem I see with that scenario is that 9 times out of 10, it's those middle managers who are the problem.
I know they are in the company I work for. What's worse is the few who are good at their job are swamped trying to keep things running...
I was specifically addressing the accusation of what an executive should do.
Middle management is the classic dumping ground for the peter principle. It's frankly the rung of the ladder that can go the longest being incompetent, but eventually poor middle management catches up with an organization, usually because front line supervisors are acting inconsistently and often improperly
I got that.
I was pointing out an obvious flaw in that system - that the executive hears (if at all) about the problem from the people who are the problem and will more likely than not be at the very least trying to deflect blame if not outright trying to deny the problem.
And those front line supervisors are just trying to keep things running with no support or guidance from the people who are supposed to provide just that - they're not the problem, but they do get blamed. At best, they, or their conduct, are a symptom.
2020/03/12 09:35:10
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
AFAIK the majority of managers try to arrange things so they have the time to play those sorts of political games and present themselves in the best light which is likely why so many have no idea about core things in their area of responsibility.
Good managers are amazing but there are a lot of built in incentives to behave poorly unfortunately.
Easy E wrote: No one cares about the worker bees that put their head down and get things done. That is the BASELINE for getting promoted. It is all the stuff beyond the core work that matters.
So much this. I don't know how many appraisals I've given over the years, but the core of the interview has remained the same for a while. It usually goes something like...
Young guy: I'm really good at my job but I keep getting passed for promotion.
Me: When it comes to promotion, nobody gives a if you are good at your current job. You are supposed to be good at it as a minimum but that doesn't entitle you to be promoted.
Young guy: But that's not fair and the system is broken if people who are good at their job don't get promoted.
Me: No, that's exactly how the system is supposed to work.
Young guy: WT!
I then have to follow this up with a lengthy chat but the essence remains the same. Most people just don't understand how promotion works and therefor think it is unfair and their managers are crap. Those who take the time to reflect and learn undoubtedly very quickly become suitable for promotion
(christ - I've been doing this so long the words spill out like second nature)
I think the usual misapprehension is that promotion is akin to levelling up a character in D&D, when in fact it's more like multi-classing. My manager does not do 'the same thing as me but slightly better'. if anything, I'm better at my job than he would be - because I do my job day in, day out. He does other, more managerial stuff - and is probably better at that than I am - but his technical skills are falling by the wayside.
If you're looking for promotion, yes, you need to be doing well at your job as a baseline. Proving you're a good employee and so on. But you really want to be aiming for showing that you're going to be good at the new job you're aiming for.
There should also be more opportunities for recognition in the system for exceptional performance in one's current role outside of promotion though. Which seems a strange way to recognise good performance if you ask me. "You're doing really well at this thing. We're going to stop you doing it and make you do something else instead."
2020/03/12 10:52:45
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
It’s also understanding the role, and why you do what you do, and why, even, especially, when you disagree with management, it’s done a certain way.
That’s a conversation you can have with your manager. Trick there I’d say isn’t to come across as questioning, so much as curious. Have your suggestion ready to go of course, as if your manager has been off the ‘front line’ for a while, it’s entirely possible they’ve missed opportunities to increase efficiency and accuracy etc.
Interact. Show that you want to progress for the right reasons. Going back to my OP? I’d say the butthole manager was a manager for all the wrong reasons. Never did our role, never understood our work. He just liked lording it over people, micro managing everything, and changing rules (even those set by The Powers That Be) on a whim. My good managers ( and there have been a great many of those) supported us. They found out what we needed in terms of support, and spoke up for us. They’re in the right place for the right reason!
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
The only job of mine I’ve ever enjoyed was the summer I spent working at the zoo. Sad to see it’s facing closure now. Haemorrhaging money.
Wait, I tell I lie. I also enjoyed the time spent working as a researcher for my alma mater before budget cuts closed that whole department down....I’m sensing a pattern here....
2020/03/12 15:25:27
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
Future War Cultist wrote: The only job of mine I’ve ever enjoyed was the summer I spent working at the zoo. Sad to see it’s facing closure now. Haemorrhaging money.
Wait, I tell I lie. I also enjoyed the time spent working as a researcher for my alma mater before budget cuts closed that whole department down....I’m sensing a pattern here....
I know someone who moved from Blockbuster to Woolworths to BHS. They work for Debenhams now.
2020/03/12 15:35:47
Subject: Re:Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
So, what have you done to document the process and create trackable workflows to help you tell the story without being perceived as the "problem"? Have you created a workflow that demonstrates the impact of each step and how they are interrelated in the process? The expected vs. current time at each step (including your own) and bulleted out common pain points? Have you documented any of the work steps you completed and how often? Have you reached out for support from your peers and documented their response with the boss on CC? If the boss is not responding, what is your relationship with their boss? Who else is impacted below you in the process? What is happening to their work stream?
I ask, because there is a good likelihood that the boss doesn't know any of this, because they are not properly walking the process flow. If the Boss doesn't know, they can not help you. Right now, the Boss is only hearing the point of view of the people that talk to him. This of course is excluding your own voice.
Boring Storytime:
I recall the big turning point in my career. I was telling my leader about a broken process and looked expectantly at them to fix it.
They said, "What are you going to do about it?"
I blinked twice, momentarily stunned and said, "I did do something. I told you."
"That's not doing something about it. That is complaining about it. How are you going to fix it?"
"I can fix it?"
"Yes, tell me what you think it should look like, and what you will need to build to make it look like that; then get back to me."
So, I did. My life became easier, my boss looked good, and I was suddenly on the radar for advancement. I had differentiated myself from my colleagues as not only could I find problems, but I figured out ways to fix them.
After that, I have never been the victim of a broken process or my work colleagues again. I was always making choices and putting together ways to make my own life easier. These methods typically helped my peers, my reports, the customer, and ultimately the company. I have been climbing ever since, and all I ever have to do is to try and be as lazy as possible. I have picked up better tools and ways to share my ideas in a way that my bosses can grasp or care about along the way; and some of those were technical certifications even. However, it was always in service of learning to speak the language of the people I needed to influence so I could be lazy.
Who would have thought that ruthless laziness was the key to corporate ladder climbing?
Yes, it's been mentioned to the bosses. Yes, it's been documented and presented. Their response? I'm obviously just trying to steal credit for Mr. Brownnoser's hard work.... which I just showed you HE NEVER DID.
This is not unique to my current workplace. It's endemic everywhere I've been. This is the system as it exists. Sure, maybe Mr. Brownnoser will be the greatest manager ever once promoted. But how can you promote someone who DOES NOT MEET MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR THEIR CURRENT JOB?
I had a boss who used to say "if I did my job perfectly, all I would need to do is sign the documents only I can sign, and everybody else would do everything." That's not laziness, it's delegation and good management. Only bad managers want people to work harder, faster, or longer. Good managers want to get more work done, which often means working less, not more.
Now this I agree with, and when I'm in a leadership position this is what I strive for - and what I want MY bosses to strive for. I want my team to be able to do their job with absolute minimum input from me (be it anything from collecting, collating, and analyzing data to unloading a truck and getting everything onto the shelf for sale), so I can then jump in and help pull the load and make proper use of my prior experience as a workerbee. And it might surprise you to learn that when I'm ALLOWED to do this, my teams are among the most efficient in whatever location I'm in.
Sadly, most bosses WANT to stick their noses in and rearrange things to their satisfaction... usually in INefficient ways, because they never bothered to learn how to do things EFFICIENTLY (they were too busy schmoozing their boss to learn). Thus do they 'show' their bosses that they are 'in control' of things which somehow 'makes them look good'. I never figured out how making things less efficient makes one look good, but that's the 'communication synergy' modern businesses in America seem to demand.
EDIT: Reading several other posts, I'm starting to wonder if this last bit is the whole problem. By proving myself a more efficient manager of a small team than current management is, I become a threat to their positions. And why am I more efficient a manager? Because instead of politiciing and blowing my own horn I buckle down and WORK hoping the results will speak for themselves.
Bloody politics, always interfering with ACTUALLY accomplishing something efficiently...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/12 17:55:30
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2020/03/12 18:21:13
Subject: Do you enjoy your job/career/current version of it?
I'm starting to think my problem is my upbringing. "Working hard is the first step to success." "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right." "Do it right the first time so you won't have to do it over."
While modern business seems to operate on 'It doesn't matter what you do IF ANYTHING, all that matters is blowing your own horn and stomping down anyone who might threaten your position and/or advancement.' My parents, teachers, and other role-models seem to have missed telling me about that part...
Also makes me wonder if succeeding at anything DOING something is actually worth bothering with anymore. If business thrives on backstabbing and boasting instead of actual accomplishment... well, that explains quite a bit about America and it's governmental and corporate culture.
) and is only referring to myself.
if you are good at your current job. You are supposed to be good at it as a minimum but that doesn't entitle you to be promoted.
