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You can't buy one combat patrol box and play a game of warhammer 40k with it, you'd have no opposing army. They're an awful way for a new player to get started. Honestly I don't really know who they're *for*, at best they're for existing players to tempt them into branching out into additional armies (and they're generally a naff way to do that, with sub-optimal combinations of units and anemic savings).

Right. OK. Crap point. Twelve points to Gryffindor.

Because you can say the exact same about buying a Big Core Box. It might well come with two sides, but if you’ve no-one to play against? That’s GW’s Fault because…….(answers only accepted on the back of a £10 note)

I think the Combat patrols etc also suffer a lot when they add character miniatures, which are the most overpriced of kits.
But overall, getting into GW main games is expensive.

A potential solution to all this is making the games with just half of the required minis that they do need now. Massive armies with repeated units at high prices is a hard thing to sell to anyone.
For example Leviathan box forces would be a full army for both factions.

This price increase though is just one of the many signs that GW is happy to churn and burn the same agenda, for as long as it possibly can.

For me it's as simple as:
Start Collecting, good value, in the range of "oh, I can afford this!" so I spent loads on them (I got Tau, Genestealer Cults, Dark Eldar, Chaos Warriors, Stormcast, Orcs and Necrons and I'd have gotten more if they hadn't gone out of print!).
Combat Patrol, okay value, price is in the "huh, that's a big expenditure, is it REALLY worth it?" that gets me to stop and think a bit more and generally conclude "Nah, I'll skip this one".
Only got the Adeptus Mechanicus one and kinda regretted it afterwards.

 Da Boss wrote:
For me it's as simple as:
Start Collecting, good value, in the range of "oh, I can afford this!" so I spent loads on them (I got Tau, Genestealer Cults, Dark Eldar, Chaos Warriors, Stormcast, Orcs and Necrons and I'd have gotten more if they hadn't gone out of print!).
Combat Patrol, okay value, price is in the "huh, that's a big expenditure, is it REALLY worth it?" that gets me to stop and think a bit more and generally conclude "Nah, I'll skip this one".
Only got the Adeptus Mechanicus one and kinda regretted it afterwards.

Yeah, me personally I would have loved it if they kept the Start Collecting boxes and then had Combat Patrol/Vanguard as a sort of 'second step' purchase thing instead of just discontinuing the Start Collecting boxes. Some of the newer boxes are a good deal, though honestly the Sigmar ones are for the most part better deals (I'll admit to having purchased a few to use in Old World, and had *planned* on grabbing 1 or 2 more later in the year to expand on them).

By the way, do we know yet if Combat Patrol/Vanguard are getting price hikes yet? I know some years they have avoided it while others they got 10$ jumps.

 Da Boss wrote:
For me it's as simple as:
Start Collecting, good value, in the range of "oh, I can afford this!" so I spent loads on them (I got Tau, Genestealer Cults, Dark Eldar, Chaos Warriors, Stormcast, Orcs and Necrons and I'd have gotten more if they hadn't gone out of print!).
Combat Patrol, okay value, price is in the "huh, that's a big expenditure, is it REALLY worth it?" that gets me to stop and think a bit more and generally conclude "Nah, I'll skip this one".
Only got the Adeptus Mechanicus one and kinda regretted it afterwards.

I believe the term is "Barrier to entry". With Combat Patrols, at least when they launched you were getting an overall higher % of saving over the Start Collecting boxes, and tended to be a more initially field-able force. However, they are a bigger expenditure up front. the difference between an average of 90USD and 160USD (closer to 180 these days) is significant and makes people much more hesitant about just "picking one up".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The focus has fundamentally changed.

It's what happens when you want to make absolutely sure people don't buy multiples of the "cheap" boxes, yes

What were once battalion boxes are now Combat Patrols, and whatever the AoS term for them is.

And those have very specific meanings. You buy one? And play the variant of the game named after it? You have at least a complete initial starting force, at least directly balanced against one another, including variant unit rules and abilities to make up the difference.

And so, they absolutely remain an entry level product. A one and done if needs must for a given customer.

But for those who get properly hooked, as we all did? A jumping off point. But one you can always retreat to and have a fieldable force, albeit in very specific games.

Which to be completely honest, is more than previous Battalions could say for sure.

That's kind of true, but kind of not, too. It's not an entry level product, because it doesn't include everything you need to play: no rules, no dice, no nothing but minis, as far as I understand. Meaning you will be needing to buy some other stuff, and/or to enter some obscure (for them) webpage to actually be able to... you know... play the game you are supposed to be buying this box for.

And yeah, at the end of the day... what most people check is "how much bang for how many bucks", and on that, well...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. OK. Crap point. Twelve points to Gryffindor.

Because you can say the exact same about buying a Big Core Box. It might well come with two sides, but if you’ve no-one to play against? That’s GW’s Fault because…….(answers only accepted on the back of a £10 note)

You have mates who you can play with, or family, or even just play both sides, if you're providing all the stuff. That's how starter sets work and have worked for decades. A combat patrol is only a way to start playing 40k if you already have an opponent who also has an army, which is fundamentally a higher barrier for entry. I.e., it's a horrible way to start playing 40k. That's aside from all the other reasons why it's a horrible way to start playing 40k (no rulebook, often nonsensical group of miniatures, high price).

You're coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who's already in the hobby, which isn't who starter sets are for. They're for netting kids and their friends, or board gamers, or other non-hobbyists, or people who play other miniature games.

Also, if you're reading something and your response is "crap point", while I think that's pretty rude my advice is seek first to understand.

Billicus wrote:
The fact that existing customers also buy the loss leader doesn't mean the loss leader has failed as a recruitment tool. The problem is GW don't like doing loss leaders at all anymore - even the actual *starter* sets are crap value.

A 65€ start collecting that cost them 2€ in materials also isn't exactly a loss leader, certainly not in the same ballpark as a 65€ Kindle.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Billicus wrote:
The fact that existing customers also buy the loss leader doesn't mean the loss leader has failed as a recruitment tool. The problem is GW don't like doing loss leaders at all anymore - even the actual *starter* sets are crap value.

A 65€ start collecting that cost them 2€ in materials also isn't exactly a loss leader, certainly not in the same ballpark as a 65€ Kindle.

It's only comparable margines to what companies like WGA operate with successfully.... just GW doesn't like that

Starter sets are supposed to be good entry points into the hobby, and I think it’s crazy GE is shutting them down because too many regular customers are buying them in addition to the fresh meat.

My first game? BFG starter played with my brother and our friends. We ended up getting lots of BFG minis. My first 40k game? Battle for Macragge starter with my wife. I even played a game of AOS with the starter and a friend.

It’s much more comfortable to start a new game with people I know and trust even if they aren’t familiar with the game than it is to go to the FLGS that I presumably just discovered and try to figure out which weirdo hanging out there isn’t going to be a jerk.

2 player sets are entry points

Army Sets, were never a good entry point with GW. They were cheaper than buying everything on its own, but hardly ever needed everything in the box or had units inside no one would ever use

those boxes are there to create the "value" and the illusion of saving.
(eg Box of 5 Marines for 50€, here you have a bundle of 11 Marines for 80€, so much value in the box and so much saving, a must buy)

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Starter sets are supposed to be good entry points into the hobby, and I think it’s crazy GE is shutting them down because too many regular customers are buying them in addition to the fresh meat.

They're not though? They have three different starters for both of their flagships, which probably won't change when AoS4 drops. They're all pretty good deals too, especially for whoever gets the nid half.

I thought someone had said they stopped selling starters as loss leaders. Are they still being sold at reasonable prices, such as $100-$150?

I'm pretty sure that GW has never sold a loss leader

 kurhanik wrote:


By the way, do we know yet if Combat Patrol/Vanguard are getting price hikes yet? I know some years they have avoided it while others they got 10$ jumps.

We do not.
This whole discussion on them started because I asked that very same question