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A collection of strange oddities in the rules that make you say "what?," especially if you were to see them happen in a realistic portrayal.

-If a unit loses the guys in the middle, knocking the unit out of coherency, the remaining members will run to each other where the rest of the unit just got shot to pieces...

-Tau still need just the typical 4+ to hit most opponents, making their low WS sort of pointless.

-1 out of 6 gretchin out in the open will survive literally anything, including battle cannons, orbital bombardments, or apocalyptic mega blasts at destroyer strength.

-a biker could "walk" his bike 1" past a small bush, and he still has the same chance of dying to dangerous terrain as if he were going full speed.

-Jump infantry that deep strike group hug to do so, when really they should be able to just land in some coherent formation.

-Somehow you reload your weapon and get shots off quicker when an enemy is running at you. You're still able to keep reloading and shooting normally immediately after, which begs the question: "why don't they just randomly spray some overwatch every turn?"

-As soon as a unit steps one toe off a table edge when falling back, they vanish instantly, even if regrouping was exceptionally likely or automatic.

-The fact that the enemies are looking through ruins, a window, a forest, over the head of one of their guys, and between the legs of one of yours, and can only see your foot, makes you NO harder to hit than if you were standing right in front of them. If your armor is decent, then all the cover has no mechanical use whatsoever.

-If you're standing in the line of fire between two units, you are perfectly safe.

-Your men/bugs/robots would rather die than shoot anywhere close to where joe is locked in combat with 99 orks. They seem to be of the belief that he's going to make it out of that somehow. Also applies when a tiny gretchin is in combat with a reaver Titan. Can't risk hitting that poor gretchin now can we?

-twin linked weapons: no matter what, you can't get more hits than you would with a normal version of the gun.

-Just because something towers over the battlefield, is right by you, and isn't moving doesn't make it any easier to hit. In fact, even good shooting armies will still miss the ground 33% of the time.

-You have omniscient knowledge of which marines are inside that land raider, and what they're armed with, even if you haven't seen them get out.

-One psyker in the army can hog all the casting dice. Somehow the others just can't do anything.

-Most units can't run and charge. Isn't that what you're doing when you charge anyway?

-a giant chainsaw sword has no statistical distinction from a pistol whip or a punch from the same guy. Why even carry the sword?

-A strength 4 and strength 10 shot both have the same chance of killing a ratling. And it isn't 100%. Just a flesh wound indeed.

-A knight Titan can stomp a riptide and wraithknight, models that are as big or bigger than itself, but not a tiny transcendent c'tan.

-You can end up stomping on something more than a foot away on the board, without moving from the combat you're stuck in.

-The greatest shooters in the galaxy are no better than orks when it comes to hitting a flyer. You would think some of them would know how to lead shots or something.

-You can fire a blast onto the back edge of a unit, but unless it was a barrage, you'll still only kill the guys in front.

-Even fearless and non-thinking soldiers can be intimidated out of combat by a challenge.

-You can plan to run into some woods, and not even make it to them thanks to the difficult terrain roll.

-A stealthy unit isn't any harder to see at night.

-Even very light armor can save you from a hammer of wrath attack from a Titan.

-Your men will refuse to assault the enemy they're standing 1" away from just because the vehicle they were in had a roof and no assault ramp.

-No one is watching the flanks or rear of your army. Enemies with outflank are free to meander on from wherever they please.

-Your troops also refuse to assault any enemy when they show up on the board. They don't mind shooting though.

-Your troops will refuse to assault if bob, the guy in back with the missile launcher, fired his weapon at all.

-You could shoot at one unit, and then assault both it and a unit right next to it, but if you kill the first unit with your shooting, your men will outright refuse to assault the other unit.

-A sabotaged objective is still important. And then there's the issue of how it blows up more than once.

-Your high command is incompetent. They may want you to destroy the tyranids' vehicles and buildings, destroy the local necron psyker, cast a psychic power with your black Templar marines, or kill orks in close combat with your tau.

-A monstrous creature could be turned into Swiss cheese by bullets, but as long as it has 1 wound left, it fights like it's in perfect health.

-Your entire assaulting unit of elite superhumans may trip over each other, failing hilariously short charges in open terrain, with or without overwatch, and even if the unit being assaulted wants you to make it.

-A flyer can wreck simply because there are men standing on the ground where it wants to fly over.

-Many anti-daemon factions can summon daemons. They're not only helpful, but everyone else on your side is A-okay with this, even if you have grey knight and inquisition allies.

-The fact that you destroyed some cheap ork trukk on the first turn is just as valuable as killing their warlord or breaking through to their deployment zone.

-The unit medic doesn't have to do anything extra. You'll survive better just knowing he's there.

-Your men refuse to pick up weapons off the ground, whether they were yours or not. I guess they got dirty?

-A group of superhumans can't synchronize a grenade toss. They can all stick them on a vehicle though.

-it's possible to accidentally toss a grenade over 200% of it's intended range, or throw it its full range the opposite direction from where you were aiming.

-The game arbitrarily ends at a certain point. You literally can't take another step to claim an objective at that point. Your army also doesn't know when the battle will end.

-battles either start right before dawn or during daytime. By universal agreement it seems, armies will not fight each other from 6pm to about 5am.

-Redundant protection does nothing. A terminator wielding a storm shield and an iron halo, protected by a shrouding power and a protection power, has the same chance of living as he did when he put on the storm shield.

-Standing next to a ridiculously tough guy makes you ridiculously tough. If you and a friend stand next to him, he becomes as weak as you, though.

-Your men in reserve can apparently get lost while trying to get to the battle.

I originally wanted to comment on many points, but it's just too much. Many things are just rule abstraction to keep the game playable. I do not want to roll for every model if he has to go to the toilet in this turn.

For other things you just need a bit more imagination. And others you got totally wrong. If you dabble a bit in real life strategy you will see that getting your troops to appear on the battlefield where you want it is indeed a major logistic act, so yes, they can get lost (or their transport breaks down, is not available in time etc.).

Trying to compare 40k rules to real life is like saying you'd be a great sniper because you have 20-2 KD ratio in Call of Duty.

 Murenius wrote:
I originally wanted to comment on many points, but it's just too much. Many things are just rule abstraction to keep the game playable. I do not want to roll for every model if he has to go to the toilet in this turn.

For other things you just need a bit more imagination. And others you got totally wrong. If you dabble a bit in real life strategy you will see that getting your troops to appear on the battlefield where you want it is indeed a major logistic act, so yes, they can get lost (or their transport breaks down, is not available in time etc.).

I think you missed the point...I'm well aware that some are caused by being abstract. That doesn't stop them from being entertaining to point out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Trying to compare 40k rules to real life is like saying you'd be a great sniper because you have 20-2 KD ratio in Call of Duty.

I think you also missed the point. Is it that hard to get that it's just supposed to be an entertainment thread?

Honestly, the original impression was that this is a whine at abstractions being abstracted.

I understood it to be a fun/goofy thread.

Imperial Guard Commanders can cause Guardsmen to shoot magical lasers that vector around cover by yelling at them.

Imperial Guard Orders in general (why can't an SM Captain yell at Marines to shoot better, or an Autrach rally his troops?).

The Monolith is only as structurally sound as a Ghost Ark (HP).

Land Raiders are only as structurally sound as a Ghost Ark (HP).

Poison is described to effect non-living things via stuff like acid and what not, but this "acid and stuff" doesn't work on vehicles made of worse or similar materials.

You can shoot pistols at flyers but jump infantry can't reach them to melee them.

Edit: 40k is srsbsns.

Armies will often set up fortifications and defensive lines within easy shooting distance of their enemies' defences, facing them, but the enemy will graciously not shoot at them until they're completely built and occupied.

Either that, or one army will build their fortifications and defensive lines facing from two different sides, onto a narrow, unoccupied strip of terrain between the two.

Vehicles with weapons that have ranges 3 to 10 times the length of the actual battlefield will never shoot at the enemy army before they're on the same table.

niv-mizzet wrote:

-Your troops will refuse to assault if bob, the guy in back with the missile launcher, fired his weapon at all.

Hey, it's not my fault that my fellow soldiers refuse to get stuck in without me. They're loyal like that I guess. Also, I'm the only one of them with plot armor!

Damn, this is a funny list! Thanks, was fun to read!

 God In Action wrote:
Honestly, the original impression was that this is a whine at abstractions being abstracted.

I think maybe you've been jaded by typical forum negativity, that you immediately assume any given post is more whining. Nope, this is a humor thread.

Damn, this is a funny list! Thanks, was fun to read!

Thanks!

Vehicles with weapons that have ranges 3 to 10 times the length of the actual battlefield will never shoot at the enemy army before they're on the same table.

Oooh that's a good one.

I think one of the most ridicules things you point out is redundant protections. I really think this ought to be addressed. It's been an issue for a long time and it almost makes your armor save useless. Grabbing cover in this game is exceptionally easy and they make it easier and easier as every edition of rules comes out.

Main example where the system fails.
units in cover gain no advantage against weapons that don't deny their armor save. (this is absolutely idiotic)
Invulnerable saves as well...they aren't taken in addition to armor saves...as they should be - it's additional protection - often from a mythical or magical force. yet feel no pain is and it's handed out to squads like candy in many armies.

My solution ofc would be making cover reduce your roll to hit. Which is in effect what cover actually does...it prevents you from being hit

I'd also make invulnerable saves always able to be taken on top of your armor save roll with feel no pain function as an interior form of an invulnerable save that only gets it conditional as it does now.

Jain Zar, Phoenix lord of swordplay, probably older than the IoM itself, with the added experience of every Eldar ever fed to her, is less skilled at swordplay than some random Vindicare Assassin, Sniper Extrodinaire.

Cypher, an extremely skilled and (literally) impossibly old human (not even a Marine) is faster than Baharoth. The fasted Phoenix Lord ever.

A Guardsman general who has been waging war for a few paltry decades is better tactitian than an Autarch who has been fine-tooning the art of warfare for centuries or millenia.

A Landspeeder is just as maneuverable and fast as a Vyper jetbike. Heck, a Marine on a future Hog is just as fast as a Vyper.

I would of liked the fantasy system of cover reducing bs n stuff + ward saves to make terminators actually worth a damn.

i also prefer the strength and armor pen system from that. though etherway

I like how Apothecary only ever hang out in command squads like the veterans or the chapter master in that bike squad is less important. (not counting DA,BA,GK)

Immobile vehicles being able to jink. And the passengers being able to shoot at full BS despite ostensibly being flung about violently.

There's so much wrong with the way the current jink mechanics work it's absurd

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's so much wrong with the way the current jink mechanics work it's absurd

Same with Large models and cover.

Hi him a Wraithknight and i have my foot in a ruin so i get a 4+ cover save

Oh hi im a rhino about 3 times smaller then him and i dont get a cover because the wall only covers 20% of me. golly jeee

Demon princes with wings can somehow use their wings to zip and dodge shots while not moving on the ground.

 Orock wrote:
Demon princes with wings can somehow use their wings to zip and dodge shots while not moving on the ground.

Hey man break dancing daemon princes have some street cred

Why do ork tank tred(ie Traxx) work better than human tank tracks?

 Orock wrote:
Demon princes with wings can somehow use their wings to zip and dodge shots while not moving on the ground.

People find it perfectly fine.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/622590.page

Btw, i've borrowed the breakdancing dp © phrase from Desubot.

to Desubot
Thank you very much. I love the imagenry.

Im surprised you didnt point out the plague of dementia that has spread among the galaxy. Commanders no longer remember their skills, psykers forget theirs and remember random ones etc.

The vox casting system.

Sniping artillery.

I wouldnt even call these rules abstractions. Because most of them actually waste points you have spent and also ruin the importance of good units etc.

We just call them stupid rules. The other night some guy was playing 40k and he lost 3 flyers because the demons are spread out thinly and stopped them from making as legal movement. All crashed and burned. Because of a stupid rule not an abstraction.

Of course some arent as bad as others, but abstractions are there to make odd things make sense. Not to make sensible things stupid. Like many of these.

The Orkanauts not having effigy (it says they are built to epitomize the ork gods after all just like a stompa ).

The Deep Strike mishap table. You mean to tell me a Trygon - Mawloc trying to burrow up under one guard squad or a chimmera mishaps and can be destroyed if it rolls a 1 (never mind the fact the trygon is small bio-titan.)

Stomp attacks I can see in the case of Imperial or Eldar walkers. Maybe its a Leonidas style kick or something. But how a Stompa (it even has stomp in the name) can stomp anything as heavy.

Also, Buzzgob is a special character (can take challenges). But you can upgrade him to include his BigMek Stompa which I think can still accept challenges. Id like to see any other character (not counting the apoc daemon lords) survive a round of combat with that. Also there is the added confusion of how this would work with Lukas the Tricksters endgame surprise.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

-Your troops will refuse to assault if bob, the guy in back with the missile launcher, fired his weapon at all.

Hey, it's not my fault that my fellow soldiers refuse to get stuck in without me. They're loyal like that I guess. Also, I'm the only one of them with plot armor!

niv-mizzet wrote:

 God In Action wrote:
Honestly, the original impression was that this is a whine at abstractions being abstracted.

I think maybe you've been jaded by typical forum negativity, that you immediately assume any given post is more whining. Nope, this is a humor thread.

I think might be true unfortunately :( I re-read in a different tone, and it became funny.

Another absurdity, with vehicle squadrons, it's possible for a tank to be destroyed through hits on its rear armor by a model striking that's up to 21" away from its front and 25/26" away from its rear armor.

 koooaei wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Demon princes with wings can somehow use their wings to zip and dodge shots while not moving on the ground.

People find it perfectly fine.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/622590.page

Btw, i've borrowed the breakdancing dp © phrase from Desubot.

to Desubot
Thank you very much. I love the imagenry.

No problems

i will keep saying it till it sticks.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Stomp attacks I can see in the case of Imperial or Eldar walkers. Maybe its a Leonidas style kick or something. But how a Stompa (it even has stomp in the name) can stomp anything as heavy.

It body slams whatever it's meant to stomp then flops around using hydraulics until it's back up right.

Bharring wrote:
Jain Zar, Phoenix lord of swordplay, probably older than the IoM itself, with the added experience of every Eldar ever fed to her, is less skilled at swordplay than some random Vindicare Assassin, Sniper Extrodinaire.

Cypher, an extremely skilled and (literally) impossibly old human (not even a Marine) is faster than Baharoth. The fasted Phoenix Lord ever.

A Guardsman general who has been waging war for a few paltry decades is better tactitian than an Autarch who has been fine-tooning the art of warfare for centuries or millenia.

A Landspeeder is just as maneuverable and fast as a Vyper jetbike. Heck, a Marine on a future Hog is just as fast as a Vyper.

Actually one has to remember for Jain Zar is that she is still in the body of a normal Banshee, while slightly enhanced. The Vindicare is also drugged up to the gills in cybernetics, age old drugs created before the Horus Heresy, and imprinted memories to the point where he's less a human and more a being created specifically just to murder.

Cypher is a marine?

Yeah the IG thing is a bit conspicuous.

That reads like a list of "why the WMH rules are 1000x better than anything that GW has ever done". Most of the problems in that list are fixed in WMH. Especially the part about a MC down to 1 wound being just as powerful. In WMH your jacks take damage in rows. The bottom of each column has letters symbolizing left arm, right arm, cortex and movement. Once the left arm is damaged, attacks with that weapon are less powerful. Also, they use modifiers when something has cover. It's just a much better system overall and I didn't truly realize how many stupid rules interactions 40k had until I learned WMH. To fix 40k they would need to scrap everything and remake it from the ground up. I don't expect it to be 100% realistic but the core mechanics of the game shouldn't be so obviously flawed.

Toofast wrote:
That reads like a list of "why the WMH rules are 1000x better than anything that GW has ever done". Most of the problems in that list are fixed in WMH. Especially the part about a MC down to 1 wound being just as powerful. In WMH your jacks take damage in rows. The bottom of each column has letters symbolizing left arm, right arm, cortex and movement.

Been there, done that.