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So i'll admit i haven't bought the latest codex for Drukhari but with the way our faction has been handled it's like a death spiral of gets no new units, lose old units, becomes less popular and then that starts the cycle of GW cutting more units from the army list. Remember when we had 3 different beast types, several archon's retinue types, Urien Rakarth, Grotesques, Vect and maybe others i have forgotten (mandrakes were gone for a while but finally got a re-make)? Most of these units have been gone for years with no new releases. The only "new" character we got was Lady Malys who last i checked GW had in the 5th edition rules and during 8th edition put her and Lelith into the ynnari faction lore-wise and seemed to be attempting to phase out the actually non-ynnari drukhari by leaving them in commoragh getting sucked into the warp which was also caused by the ynnari. In fact in many ways i think our latest army list has less options than the 5th edition one (including getting no baron, no duke sliscus, no mandrake leader, etc.).

Anyway i stopped playing Drukhari and 40k. I used to hate this but i realized GW doesn't care about Drukhari a long time ago so why should i.

Question:
If you've stopped playing Drukhari, stopped playing 40k, and dont care, why bother posting about any of it?

ccs wrote:
Question:
If you've stopped playing Drukhari, stopped playing 40k, and dont care, why bother posting about any of it?

To see if anything changed, maybe?

Edit: And unfortunately, Dark Eldar are still pretty limited. They can be powerful, but they're not well-supported.

I don't think they've ever liked them, they were a Fantasy holdover that they never really knew what to do with. They probably came very close to going the way of the original squats.

I think eldar are in a weird spot as a whole, where they tried to do a reboot. But it kind of fell through.
The dark eldar need some love and effort, but I’m not sure what at this stage.
Honestly I just kind of hate the Ynnari, they could have easily done everything better without them tied to the factions like a little ball and chains.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So i'll admit i haven't bought the latest codex for Drukhari but with the way our faction has been handled it's like a death spiral of gets no new units, lose old units, becomes less popular and then that starts the cycle of GW cutting more units from the army list. Remember when we had 3 different beast types, several archon's retinue types, Urien Rakarth, Grotesques, Vect and maybe others i have forgotten (mandrakes were gone for a while but finally got a re-make)? Most of these units have been gone for years with no new releases. The only "new" character we got was Lady Malys who last i checked GW had in the 5th edition rules and during 8th edition put her and Lelith into the ynnari faction lore-wise and seemed to be attempting to phase out the actually non-ynnari drukhari by leaving them in commoragh getting sucked into the warp which was also caused by the ynnari. In fact in many ways i think our latest army list has less options than the 5th edition one (including getting no baron, no duke sliscus, no mandrake leader, etc.).

Anyway i stopped playing Drukhari and 40k. I used to hate this but i realized GW doesn't care about Drukhari a long time ago so why should i.

Yes, they care. No they don't care enough right now.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So i'll admit i haven't bought the latest codex for Drukhari but with the way our faction has been handled it's like a death spiral of gets no new units, lose old units, becomes less popular and then that starts the cycle of GW cutting more units from the army list.
...
In fact in many ways i think our latest army list has less options than the 5th edition one (including getting no baron, no duke sliscus, no mandrake leader, etc.).

I counted up the total number of units we had in 3rd edition and compared it to the number we have now not too long ago. I don't recall the exact count, but we're right at the cusp of breaking even or possibly having fewer units than before depending on how you look at it.

We could definitely use more model support, and GW should be ashamed every time they release a primaris lieutenant when they let three different drukhari units fall to Legends with the latest codex release. I'll also say that I think drukhari (and eldar in general) have kind of struggled to "fit" into the general design direction of the last couple of editions. Moving away from customizable characters (Crucible rules not withstanding) combined with not getting a lot of unit releases means that our already limited faction lost a lot of its options. 10th edition is kind of a cage match with smaller tables, magic circles that you have to stand on if you don't want to lose the game, and lots of beefy units with decent charge threat ranges running around. Speed-as-defense mechanics have become more and more limited over time too. All of which combines to kind of limit how GW can design drukhari. It kind of forces us to either be hyper-efficient enough at trading units to win a haymaker contest, or else we aren't efficient enough and just lose.


BUT! All that said, I don't think any of this is a lack of interest on GW's part. We *did* finally just get Malys as well as a new archon. Our current rules are pretty decent despite the limitations of 10th. In 9th edition, we were considered a menace for a lot of the edition. We got Queen of Knives not too long ago, and we get some decent rep in the Void Scarred and Da Big Dakka novels. So we've been powerful. We've had novels. We're just criminally undersupported in terms of models.

(mandrakes were gone for a while but finally got a re-make)?

Mandrakes were never gone. They went from pewter to finecast to the new kill team plastic models, but their rules have always been in the codex.

The only "new" character we got was Lady Malys who last i checked GW had in the 5th edition rules and during 8th edition put her and Lelith into the ynnari faction lore-wise and seemed to be attempting to phase out the actually non-ynnari drukhari by leaving them in commoragh getting sucked into the warp which was also caused by the ynnari.

Malys isn't really Ynnari. At least not directly. She's just anti-Vect, and Vect is anti-Ynnari. Lelith was pro-Ynnari for a while but has recently kind of distanced herself from them both physically and politically (as have most of the named aeldari characters.)

Most of the characters we lost were presumably the result of the whole Chapter House lawsuit and the resulting no-model-no-rules policy. GW opting to cut them instead of supporting them with models is very frustrating, and giving Malys back to us is definitely a two steps forward one step back situation. (And I say that as a Poisoned Tongue player who adores Malys.)

Anyway i stopped playing Drukhari and 40k. I used to hate this but i realized GW doesn't care about Drukhari a long time ago so why should i.

Meh. Like I said. We're in a weird spot. We've lost wargear options and units for either avoidable reasons or no seemingly no reason at all. Frankly, a lot of the charm that made me love drukhari back in the day simply isn't present in their current rules. But it's hard to say that GW doesn't care about us given that our current rules are pretty playable and our 9th edition rules considered very strong.

To me, it does feel like our faction suffers from being deprioritized compared to other factions (mainly marines), but it doesn't feel like we're being intentionally neglected. I think we're just better suited to a version of 40k that is very different from the magic circles and no-customizability version we have right now.

Craftworld Eldar have had major updates in 9th and 10th Edition.

Dark Eldar? Sure it been 15 years since their much needed overhaul, but their current plastic range is still modern looking. Sure there are units they once had (Trueborn, Fancy Wyches, Beastmaster and Co, Court of the Archon, Vect and a bunch of character options) which aren’t part of it right now.

Which isn’t a huge amount. Granted, so not a huge amount it’s probably highly frustrating to DE players that those remain outstanding.

I’m not sure what else could be added to the Dark Eldar though. Mostly because I’m not familiar with them, let alone modern 40K.

But for reimagining?

Trueborn and Elite Fancy Wyches need more than just more fancy weapons. They need weapons which feel fancy. Now, Trueborn used to have access to Shard Carbines, and of course had (or could upgrade to?) a 4+ save. Which made them feel a cut above.

But if we elevate both units to be Minor Nobles Of Some Personal Wealth? Then you’ve a background source for them having really quite dirty combos. Like how Vanguard Veterans could (still can?) really load for bear if you wanted.

I’m not sure what else could be added to the Dark Eldar though. Mostly because I’m not familiar with them, let alone modern 40K.

Honestly, we'd be in okay shape if GW had just updated/supported the various options they've taken away from us over the years. Even setting aside trueborn and blood brides...

* Grotesques. I was really surprised they let these guys go to legends because they're like a quarter of the Coven untis in the army, and because making these guys into interesting 3-model kits similar to Flawless Blades, various 3-man primaris squads, etc. would be really easy. The whole point of these guys is that they're customizable lab experiments so just make a kit that builds a brutal melee monster version and a zany weird esoteric weapon version (double liquifier flamer squad that bleeds acid on you when you hurt them?)

* Beast Packs: Rather than consolidating these guys down, expand them out. Give each type of beast its own job (clawed fiends are hammer units that you have to hide on approach, razorwings are multi-wound distracts with fly that prevent enemeis from shooting distant foes while they're near, khymarae have invulns and respawn models whne enemies fall back or fail battleshock). Beast masters either unlock improved versions of the beasts powers or just generically make them more mobile or lethal. (CP discounts or charge rerolls.)

* The Court is full of interesting types that could be broken out into their own units. Give us lhameans as a squad with different cool bits of wargear and weaponry to flesh out that unexplored subfaction a bit. Same thing with Sslyth; give us a peek into their culture with a whole squad of snakes. Medusae could be interesting characters that you spread through your army so they can "record footage" of interesting moments and help expand the weapon options of your other units. Ur-ghuls are the odd duck and maybe make more sense as beast pack units in my opinion.

* A drukhari reaper that leans into haywire as a way of temporarily disabling a target rather than killing it outright would lean into the "playing with your food" vibe drukhari used to have and would create an interesting play option of kicking threats down the road instead of just wiping them out immediately.

* Characters with bike/wing/skyboard options to lead our more mobile units could change the ways you use those units.

* Dracons, Haemonculi Ancients, and Syrens/Dracites could open up additional rules that modify how you play with other existing units. So could the various named characters we've lost over the years for that matter.

Drukhari are in this weird position where GW has taken away about as many options over the years as its given. My harlequins feel like they've been neglected because GW just didn't feel like giving them new toys. But my drukhari feel like GW has actively been taking their toys away over the years because they couldn't be bothered to support the stuff they'd already given us.

Given Titus and Huron both just got best friend units, I'd wager the Court coming back isn't a hard sell anymore.

I'd expect a big DE wave in 11th edition.

There's a danger of this being wishful thinking - but there really isn't all that much left to refresh across wider 40k.

People struggle to imagine new stuff because it obviously steps on toes - but this hasn't been a problem for any other faction (Marines most obviously, but also Necrons and Tyranids in recent editions), so not really sure why its a limiting feature for Dark Eldar. There's no reason a faction that's been in the game since 3rd edition should be limited to about the same number of units as the Votann.

Tyel wrote:
I'd expect a big DE wave in 11th edition.

There's a danger of this being wishful thinking - but there really isn't all that much left to refresh across wider 40k.

People struggle to imagine new stuff because it obviously steps on toes - but this hasn't been a problem for any other faction (Marines most obviously, but also Necrons and Tyranids in recent editions), so not really sure why its a limiting feature for Dark Eldar. There's no reason a faction that's been in the game since 3rd edition should be limited to about the same number of units as the Votann.

Oldest standing ranges are:
Dark eldar
Grey knights
Daemons

All who have mostly 5th edition sculpts.

Dudeface wrote:
Oldest standing ranges are:
Dark eldar
Grey knights
Daemons

All who have mostly 5th edition sculpts.

Yeah.
Grey Knights are odd - because a 1:1 swap requires essentially two kits, maybe 3 if you think including the options for all the regular power armour units is a bit much.
This admittedly isn't very imaginative, and they may want to take the faction in a different direction. Which might be harder to think up.

Daemons is more of a mess. I don't think they are destined to be squatted (which now means what... you disappear from the game for 30~ years then come back again?)
But I think GW is unsure whether they are meant to be an aggregate thing or mono-god. If monogod then bulking out the respective Chaos Space Marine Chapter book makes a bit of sense even if thats bad for existing Daemons players.

But while this is logical and works for AoS, I'm not sure they are going to go that way. Belakor is a great model and almost justifies a daemons army on his own.
Which would suggest you could maybe re-imagine the roster with less emphasis on Fantasy equivalents (so long chariots etc) - and more undivided elements that form a unified army. The classic unit types survive, but get joined by more stuff in the middle.

Same sort of problem as DE though. "We want more Kabal units. Okay just have melee Kabalites. What, like Wyches and Wracks? Okay make some shooty Wracks. What, like Kabalites?"
But I think with a proper range refresh this is potentially less of a burden. Even if the yawning mouth of Legends opens wide.

They explicitely put Dark Eldar weapons on the new Corsair Viper, so it's not that GW totally forgot about them existing.
I think Ynnari are the one faction post-Kirby one could say noone at GW cares about.
I'm sure DE will return in 11th. They had to solve 2nd and 3rd edition craftworlds first, and now it's time for 5th Edition DE. Granted, putting in Corsairs in between looks strange, but for all we know GW still works partly from what their Designers just want to do, even if it's nichés that seem less important than other existing factions.

Given how few units Dark Eldar “need”*, I sometimes wonder if it feels like the players are in McDonalds. Watching their burger rapidly cool whilst they await their fries, as some morbidly obese** bloke’s tray is loaded up with serving after serving after serving of fries.

*for a given value of that word.

**referring to the size of the Space Marine range, not its players.

It seems pretty clear that GW planned to unify the Eldar in 8th along with the rest of the faction streamlining and it just didn't take. It does seem like they decided to support them properly but I suspect that got added to the queue behind everything else and something that just now is finally looking like it might get addressed.

I don't think they were going to unify them fully, 8th was the tail end of Kirby marketing where GW was die hard trying to maximise on investment.

It's why instead of replacing Marines with new sculpts they put them in the same army - bloating marines by doubling the range count.

It's why the tried to do a new faction that was just 3 models and then "whatever eldar/darkeldar you want" just smushed together.


Dark Eldar are just behind other factions; don't forget they were ahead of Craftworld for a long time and Craftworld were even less loved - running around with a lot of really old finecast and early Aspect Warriors. They've only just caught up in a big way and that's without being a "new edition box" faction or such.

Dark Eldar are just behind the Craftword, Necrons and Tyranids in these big updates.

Eldar are getting close to the end of updates/additions so the rate of new things will ease off for them. There's thus a ripe gap where Dark Eldar can step in for a range update either bit by bit or as a new main antagonist faction in a new edition etc.

I don’t agree Eldar lagged behind.

Did they get what people wanted (Plastic Aspect Warriors)? Nope.

But every edition they got something new. The jets, the Wraithknight and Wraithblades, the Doom Weaver, the Autarch.

They’ve also done….kinda alright for redos since 3rd Ed. At least compared to Dark Eldar.

Again, imperfect knowledge of the faction, but in terms of new? Dark Eldar have their jets, the Not-Talos, Grotesques being Embiggened and Wracks filling the old Grotesque role. Beastmaster got some new pets.

And so, they’ve barely expanded since their 3rd Ed debut. The massive redo was a cracker, I don’t think anyone can dispute that. And of those? Only three are still available.

Further comparison? For 3rd Ed, Dark Eldar had….

1. Archon. 2. Succubus. 3. Haemonculus. 4. Dark Eldar Warriors. 5. Wyches. 6. Beastmaster & Warp Beasts. 7. Jetbikes. 8. Scourges. 9. Hellions. 10. Scourges. 11. Raiders. 12. Ravagers. 13. Mandrakes. 14. Talos. 15. Incubi.

3rd Ed Craftworld Eldar had…

1. Avatar. 2. Farseer. 3. Striking Scorpions. 4. Howling Banshees. 5. Fire Dragons. 6. Swooping Hawks. 7. Warp Spiders. 8. Dark Reapers. 9. Dire Avengers. 10. Guardian Defenders. 11. Storm Guardians. 12. Wave Serpenet. 13. Falcon. 14. Fire Prism. 15. Wind Rider Jetbikes. 16. Vyper Jetbikes. 17. Shining Spears. 18. Warlocks. 19. Support Weapons. 20. Wraithguard. 21. Wraithlord. 22. Scouts/Rangers. 23. War Walkers.

Don’t think I’ve missed anything, except special characters. If we added those in, Eldar do even better. I’ve not added them as I can’t remember, and don’t have the book to check, which were included in Codex Eldar. But straight off the bat you’ve 6 Phoenix Lords and Asurmen, compared to….4 with models for Dark Eldar (Vect, Kruella, Incubi Dude, Lelith). Wait, 5. Haemonculus Big Boss.

Now of course, credit where it’s due Dark Eldar were a brand new range. And to be honest? Despite Bloody Awful Rules, 15 units for launch is a respectable number. Spesh compared to today (laughs at Chaos Legion armies).

But that they’ve added and retained all of three units since then? That’s pathetic.

I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.

I did enjoy the original (3e) designs for raiders, ravagers, and the reaver jetbikes, the new reaver jetbikes are still good, the raiders look strange with their sails, so I think it was a downgrade.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given how few units Dark Eldar “need”*, I sometimes wonder if it feels like the players are in McDonalds. Watching their burger rapidly cool whilst they await their fries, as some morbidly obese** bloke’s tray is loaded up with serving after serving after serving of fries.

*for a given value of that word.

**referring to the size of the Space Marine range, not its players.

I think its that the Dark Eldar are already (and only) halfway fluffed. The Imperium is led by their God Emperor. Everything they do is for/because of him. The Heretic Astartes are devoted to the Ruinous Powers. The Eldar have their own God, AND created one of the Ruinous Powers. The Dark Eldar act like they're devoted to the Ruinous Powers but... aren't? Or not Really? Not Very? All of them but Slaanesh who still hates Dark Eldar? Or doesn't? But they're still not devoted to Slaanesh in some sort of Benny from the Mumm (better to be in the right hand of the Devil than in his path)

They need someone who wants to add the second half there. Hopefully someone more creative than "Just Make them Mirrors like the space Marines". The Dark Eldar should have some sort of god/supernatural. I suppose what I would do - with what little I know of them so far - is to take one of the ones who are supposedly fallen from the pantheon, and put them on death's door, and all the slaves, carnage, pain and whatever is what's feeding them to stay alive.

Breton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given how few units Dark Eldar “need”*, I sometimes wonder if it feels like the players are in McDonalds. Watching their burger rapidly cool whilst they await their fries, as some morbidly obese** bloke’s tray is loaded up with serving after serving after serving of fries.

*for a given value of that word.

**referring to the size of the Space Marine range, not its players.

I think its that the Dark Eldar are already (and only) halfway fluffed. The Imperium is led by their God Emperor. Everything they do is for/because of him. The Heretic Astartes are devoted to the Ruinous Powers. The Eldar have their own God, AND created one of the Ruinous Powers. The Dark Eldar act like they're devoted to the Ruinous Powers but... aren't? Or not Really? Not Very? All of them but Slaanesh who still hates Dark Eldar? Or doesn't? But they're still not devoted to Slaanesh in some sort of Benny from the Mumm (better to be in the right hand of the Devil than in his path)

They need someone who wants to add the second half there. Hopefully someone more creative than "Just Make them Mirrors like the space Marines". The Dark Eldar should have some sort of god/supernatural. I suppose what I would do - with what little I know of them so far - is to take one of the ones who are supposedly fallen from the pantheon, and put them on death's door, and all the slaves, carnage, pain and whatever is what's feeding them to stay alive.

Dark Eldar don't need gods.
They need more model and rule support.

Breton wrote:


They need more inspiration for the models and rules.

To add to that, they have pretty much the one base. The Rogue/Assassin using poison to make people suffer long agonizing deaths. There are no warriors, priests, or wizards to speak of. Look at the space marine chapters. They have the same basic fluff - God Emperor, (a) Primarch (who will also sort of show up on the second list), gene seed, and on and on. But they also generally have at least two variations. Terminators. Librarians, Chaplain, Bikes. Transports. Weapon types (Melta/Flames/Thunderhammers), Scouts, Dreads, Bionics, and on and on. Those are usually/often tied to their Primarch's personality. I'm not saying Dark Eldar should get Chapter Tactics, I'm saying they don't have a second thing let alone several second things that let you mix and match. Even the Black Templars - where they took away the wizard they added the Emperor's Champion so you still had another thematic element to build around. Ynnead is the bridge between Eldar and Dark Eldar. Ynnead was allied with Dromlach. Who represents Death often. And supposedly exists in the warp and the physical plane simultenously (which would give Dark Eldar an "out" for having psykers.

Dark Eldar have been fairly neglected as it goes since they arrived in 40K. They had to use their 3e codex and miniatures until well into 5th edition, and once that 5th edition update (which was great) came around they didn't get anything else except a couple of flyers and a forgeworld unit for the next what, 5 editions? A killteam of mandrakes and an upgrade sprue, I'm not missing anything, right?

So it's clear that no one at GW is that excited by or interested in DE. Which is a shame, because I think they're a lot cooler than CE and have much cooler models. But as BanjoJohn says, I was happy that they were still the old 5e models when I went and bought an armies worth, because it meant they were cheaper than many other armies and still mapped onto what I liked from the earlier editions.

But I can well remember the feeling of neglect that comes from being invested in the current game and wanting releases for your faction that you love. So I empathise with Dark Eldar fans who feel frustrated. And I think it really wouldn't be so hard to at least stem the bleeding of units from Dark Eldar. But when nobody in the Studio is excited about your army this is what happens.

The DE are the only real sentient faction they've not tried to give any humanising to.

They have been riding the HH apologising and trying to make traitor primarchs and marines somehow only misguided, rather than selling their souls for temporal power.

Ahriman is sympathetic despite being in the 'worships tzeentch marines' codex. They push these elements on traitor marines I suppose so people don't feel so bad playing them. They want to be able to picture themselves the hero even if its a rebel hero.

The DE are still in the moustache twirling evil for the lols camp. They've gotten no redeeming qualities.

so in the current paradigm of gw selling factions to kids, they are a harder sell than marines that don't want to be shackled to blind obedience.


IMO the only way GW are going to care about this if they can develop their background with some sympathetic undertones - perhaps an archon that doesn't torture to invigorate, or only attacks 'bad' factions to do it. A dexter type. someone that has some kind of redeeming quality.

The necrons got their sympathetic revamp, orks are always relatively innocent and fun while every other faction has aspects people can latch on to.

But the pure distilling of humans into slannesh repellant aspect of DE makes them really hard to sell to the same people that like the other factions.

Maybe people that like the daemon armies, but they're disappearing into marine codexes, marines that have whole novel series humanising them for the reader.

 Hellebore wrote:
The DE are the only real sentient faction they've not tried to give any humanising to.

They have been riding the HH apologising and trying to make traitor primarchs and marines somehow only misguided, rather than selling their souls for temporal power.

Ahriman is sympathetic despite being in the 'worships tzeentch marines' codex. They push these elements on traitor marines I suppose so people don't feel so bad playing them. They want to be able to picture themselves the hero even if its a rebel hero.

The DE are still in the moustache twirling evil for the lols camp. They've gotten no redeeming qualities.

so in the current paradigm of gw selling factions to kids, they are a harder sell than marines that don't want to be shackled to blind obedience.


IMO the only way GW are going to care about this if they can develop their background with some sympathetic undertones - perhaps an archon that doesn't torture to invigorate, or only attacks 'bad' factions to do it. A dexter type. someone that has some kind of redeeming quality.

The necrons got their sympathetic revamp, orks are always relatively innocent and fun while every other faction has aspects people can latch on to.

But the pure distilling of humans into slannesh repellant aspect of DE makes them really hard to sell to the same people that like the other factions.

Maybe people that like the daemon armies, but they're disappearing into marine codexes, marines that have whole novel series humanising them for the reader.

Well yes and no. The novels recently seem to be pushing the ‘cycle of abuse’ and ‘trapped by their society’ angles.

Essentially they’re how they are because they’re all abused as children on a societal level and anyone who doesn’t act like DE are supposed to act is brutally killed by the system.

You see that in the Lelith novel and the Voidscarred novel rams it home with the former Wych who is a Corsair for the freedom to act how she wants, especially the ability to *not* be as nasty and brutal as DE need to be.

IMO it threads a good line where the DE are pretty openly vicious and sadistic, but to some extent it’s bravado with the sympathetic angle being they’re just as trapped on their paths as the Craftworlders by the society they live in. They can’t choose *not* to be vicious and sadistic unless someone provides and exit for them.

 Hellebore wrote:
The DE are the only real sentient faction they've not tried to give any humanising to.

They have been riding the HH apologising and trying to make traitor primarchs and marines somehow only misguided, rather than selling their souls for temporal power.

Ahriman is sympathetic despite being in the 'worships tzeentch marines' codex. They push these elements on traitor marines I suppose so people don't feel so bad playing them. They want to be able to picture themselves the hero even if its a rebel hero.

I didn't get they were trying to give them redeeming qualities so much as they were borrowing Obi-Wan's "Certain point of view" treatment. What little "humanizing" they got was for the Primarchs not their followers. Horus having to pick between falling and dying. Magnus was trying to do the "wrong thing" (warning the Emperor through a psychic visitation) for the right reasons and got spanked by the Emperor (and Russ) for doing it. Typhus manipulated Morty into falling. The Primarchs are very much playing with Nature vs Nurture without actually moving the needle either direction.

The DE are still in the moustache twirling evil for the lols camp. They've gotten no redeeming qualities.

so in the current paradigm of gw selling factions to kids, they are a harder sell than marines that don't want to be shackled to blind obedience.


IMO the only way GW are going to care about this if they can develop their background with some sympathetic undertones - perhaps an archon that doesn't torture to invigorate, or only attacks 'bad' factions to do it. A dexter type. someone that has some kind of redeeming quality.

The necrons got their sympathetic revamp, orks are always relatively innocent and fun while every other faction has aspects people can latch on to.

But the pure distilling of humans into slannesh repellant aspect of DE makes them really hard to sell to the same people that like the other factions.

Maybe people that like the daemon armies, but they're disappearing into marine codexes, marines that have whole novel series humanising them for the reader.

You are correct in that they need more fluff than they have. And fluff that works better. They need more reason for why they do what they do, and more archetypes for how they do it.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Well yes and no. The novels recently seem to be pushing the ‘cycle of abuse’ and ‘trapped by their society’ angles.

Essentially they’re how they are because they’re all abused as children on a societal level and anyone who doesn’t act like DE are supposed to act is brutally killed by the system.

You see that in the Lelith novel and the Voidscarred novel rams it home with the former Wych who is a Corsair for the freedom to act how she wants, especially the ability to *not* be as nasty and brutal as DE need to be.

IMO it threads a good line where the DE are pretty openly vicious and sadistic, but to some extent it’s bravado with the sympathetic angle being they’re just as trapped on their paths as the Craftworlders by the society they live in. They can’t choose *not* to be vicious and sadistic unless someone provides and exit for them.

Good summary. But to Hellebore's point, they never really risk coming across as softening the drukhari in a way that makes you think they aren't absolute monsters. So they feel vaguely tragic and like they have a reason for being sadistic monsters, but ultimately they are sadistic monsters.

Compare to Ahriman who is sometimes one of the less moustache-twirly characters in his books, so one could easily fall prey to making the mistake of thinking he's "not so bad" just because they made him relatively sympathetic in some ways.


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BanjoJohn wrote:I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up,

There is a certain amount of truth to this. I really like the 5th edition warrior and wych kits, and I'm not particularly looking forward to the eventual update we'll presumably get at some point. Long live the interchangeable non-monopose kits! Like I said earlier, I think the problem with drukhari is as much GW taking things away as it is failing to give us new stuff. With index drukhari, my nitpicking was that I wanted options or different rules for existing units; not necessarily that I wanted a bunch of new units in general.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think Ynnari are the one faction post-Kirby one could say noone at GW cares about.

I'm not sure they're apathetic towards Ynnari; I think they're actively irritated by them. As Overread says, it seems like GW was planning to combine the elves grand alliance style circa late 7th/early 8th, but then AoS was a real stinker upon initial release, so they backed off. Since then, Ynnari have gone from having a lot of momentum and being framed as the central focus of all things aeldari to just being some fringe subfaction that all the named characters have started distancing themselves from. This coming along with several editions of rules where it becomes harder and harder to put a ynnari army on the table that matches the fluff from the campaign books and novels that they appear in.

It seems like GW was poised to make some big choices with the ynnari, then abandoned all those big choices and are left trying to backpedal. It's quite frustrating.




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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Again, imperfect knowledge of the faction, but in terms of new? Dark Eldar have their jets, the Not-Talos, Grotesques being Embiggened and Wracks filling the old Grotesque role. Beastmaster got some new pets.

"Not-Talos is the Cronos, and it's actually been around since 5th edition in the same kit as the current Talos. They just spend a lot of time not being very popular competitively. One of those units that the designers seem to have a lot of trouble getting right. I always liked their 5th edition rules. They weren't great at killing marines (which was their main problem), but it *felt* good to take out an enemy model and hand out pain tokens. Nice and visceral. Really sold the fluff the rules were trying to represent.

Further comparison? For 3rd Ed, Dark Eldar had….

1. Archon. 2. Succubus. 3. Haemonculus. 4. Dark Eldar Warriors. 5. Wyches. 6. Beastmaster & Warp Beasts. 7. Jetbikes. 8. Scourges. 9. Hellions. 10. Scourges. 11. Raiders. 12. Ravagers. 13. Mandrakes. 14. Talos. 15. Incubi.

Also Dracons/Dracites. You could maybe count the mounted versions of each of those too depending on how much of the 10th edition paradigm you want to inject. But agreed, the variety in their lineup was pretty decent upon release.

I think part of the frustration with our model support is that, in addition to our overall list of options not really increasing over time, a lot of the options we have been given have been dropped over time. So if you got attached to any of the really cool named characters from 5th edition, or if you built true born and blood bride squads from 5th onward, or if you built haemocytes in 9th, or if you liked warp beasts or grotesques ever, you've had those options taken away seemingly because GW just doesn't prioritize your faction enough to make a kit for the relatively small roster of units that have been around for decades. And meanwhile, they're cranking out primaris lieutenants every five minutes.

When we were waiting on phoenix lords to get updated (setting aside Karandras for now), every lieutenant made me say, "This could have been a phoenix lord." After losing the court, the beasts, and the grotesques this edition, every plastic kit another faction gets makes me go, "This could have been a classic drukhari unit."



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Tyel wrote:
I'd expect a big DE wave in 11th edition.

I suspect you're right. Something like the beast pack feels like a unit GW might release as a Kill Team. The grotesques really should have been updated with the codex, but they're easy enough to reintroduce whenever. The court would also make a good Kill Team or could stand to be overhauled in a new book. Dropping them in the meantime is crummy, but it's easily reversible.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I suspect you're right. Something like the beast pack feels like a unit GW might release as a Kill Team. The grotesques really should have been updated with the codex, but they're easy enough to reintroduce whenever. The court would also make a good Kill Team or could stand to be overhauled in a new book. Dropping them in the meantime is crummy, but it's easily reversible.

My concern is that this is all we get.

I.E. instead of bringing the court back, why not a whole unit of Slyth, Lhamians, or the ghuls or whatever the other thing was. Or something weird and new they've just made up.
Release some new version of Incubi who have ditched the Klaives for solid mid-tier guns. (S5 AP-2 2 damage).
Obviously plastic Grots.
Have Mandrakes mounted on flaming Velicoraptors. Not quite sure how you visualise it, but a monster which is effective creeping shadow that eats things.
Vect (boo hiss) on the Dias of Destruction. Maybe as a multi-part kit that allows you to build a regular Tantalus.
Urien can be on some throne of flesh that walks across the battlefield.
Those evil Wraith Guard from the Path books.
A new unit of Wyches that throw tridents and nets at people (idk kind of reaching here). Some mounted Wych unit where each model is two jetbikes or Hellions (or other vehicle) linked by monofilament wire that mows people down.
Some sort of unit relating to the Dark Muses. Can provide "i can't believe its not a psyker" buffs. Probably need to expand on what the Dark Muses are, but you can't keep saying "Vect is a living muse" and pretending we are meant to care if you don't.

In my view DE need a proper release that people can sink their teeth into. Not "oh yeah, here's the 3 kits we could have upgraded from Finecast and released at any time in the last decade".

BanjoJohn wrote:
I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.

That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.

I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.

Tyel wrote:

Release some new version of Incubi who have ditched the Klaives for solid mid-tier guns. (S5 AP-2 2 damage).

That would be in the interesting position of being both lore-inaccurate but also a throwback to the incubi rules/models of 3rd edition. Incubi used to be able to swap klaives for shredders or blasters, but also incubi-as-dark-aspect-warriors has been doubled and tripled down on over the years. And part of being an aspect warrior is the highly uniform kit. Maybe klaivex with guns could be a sort of dark exarch parallel...

Have Mandrakes mounted on flaming Velicoraptors. Not quite sure how you visualise it, but a monster which is effective creeping shadow that eats things.

Rad. Make it giant shadow bats.

Some sort of unit relating to the Dark Muses. Can provide "i can't believe its not a psyker" buffs. Probably need to expand on what the Dark Muses are, but you can't keep saying "Vect is a living muse" and pretending we are meant to care if you don't.

Dark Muses are specifcally not gods. They seem to essentially just be like, folk heroes/paragons of certain arts and virtues. But this gets a little messy in that Shaimesh is the name of both a dark muse and the brother of the world serpent (the mythical snake that Saim-Hann's symbol references). So it's unclear whether these are two different guys or if dark muses can potentially be supernatural entities so long as they aren't "gods" per se.

It's sort of like saying you revere impressive mortals rather than gods, but then one of the creatures you revere is like, Cerberus. Technically not a "god" but similar enough in enough ways to make things confusing.