CT GAMER wrote:

The Unending wrote:
But seriously I think GW may (notice the word may) have learned their lesson from Chaos and not take the nerf bat to the Tyranids, but I could see them doing that which will make me a very sad person.

I bet money they pull the rug out from under the Nidzilla players...

No way that I'm taking that bet.

OTOH, I imagine that gaunts will be awesome, and you'll need to buy a *LOT* of them...

But at least the 40+ Gargoyles you'll need to be competitive will be new plastic models.

Tyranids are nerfed to hell as it is. No anti-tank, expensive, weak and fragile troops. Expensive, fragile and generally useless Warrior genus creatures. Expensive, fragile Genestealers with nerfed rending. The only model we have capable of causing a penetrating hit at all against a Necron monolith is a Carnifex, and only then on a 5+ if you pay points for an upgrade, if you even manage to catch it in hth at all.

We really don't need a nerf, we need some updating and powering up to keep up with everyone else.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The Unending wrote:All in all i'm optimistic about next nid 'dex

That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

Genestealers were nerfed by 5th edition and the "new" rending. It makes me cry to watch them bounce off of boring old space marines.

Now, Feeder Tendrils will go up in price, as will Scuttlers (assuming that they don't just inherit Infiltrate).

Nidzilla is toast.

Railguns wrote:

We really don't need a nerf, we need some updating and powering up to keep up with everyone else.

What you "need" and what you will get are usually two very different things as GW has clearly demonstrated in past codex revisions...

GW will axe nidzilla and make gant spam all the rage with 4-5pt. gants, etc.

Apocalypse gives them a nice excuse to do it guilt fee: they will have Jervis in the rag telling all the crying nid players that they can still use all thos big 'nid beasties they spent gobs of cash on in their Apoc games...

See happy ending...

Nope Nids are getting a nerf. In fact I'd bet they're getting a double nerf like Lascans or Asscans.

You see people are using the Defile... errr Carnifex incorrectly by sitting back and shooting with them. So the ranged weapon costs will go up (especially the Devourer and any over S7) and come with Scything Talons.

I see the following changes:

Biovores become more useful so people will be forced to buy more metal models. Number allowed will increase.

Same with Raveners.

Feeder Tendrils will SKYROCKET in cost.

Genestealers will get an expensive upgrade that will let them strike like power weapons to fit in with the new Space Hulk rules.

Gaunts will become cheaper. Not any better, just a slight points drop.

Hormagaunts are changed only by dropping the BS stat, and becoming a couple points cheaper. No other change, because you already have to buy them with regular Gaunts.

Did I mention minimum Gaunt brood size went up to 15?

Gargoyles can some amazing ability you will really want, maybe even need (like bio-plasma acts as a melta weapon) They will NOT become plastic.

Venom cannon will stay nerfed.

A flamer template weapon will be added. It will be useful in the same way that lighting yourself on fire is useful.

Carnifexes will lose something. Maybe a Wound, maybe a point of Toughness. They will not lose any points cost.

These are my predictions as a Tyranid player.

CT GAMER wrote:GW will axe nidzilla and make gant spam all the rage with 4-5pt. gants, etc.

Apocalypse gives them a nice excuse to do it guilt fee: they will have Jervis in the rag telling all the crying nid players that they can still use all thos big 'nid beasties they spent gobs of cash on in their Apoc games...

Forget that - Nidzilla will be canned and then Jervis will wax philosophical in his Ivory Tower column how 'Nids are 'returning to their roots' as a horde army. He may even go so far as to blame the 'fringe tournament crowd' for ruining what was supposed to be a fun army with the 'Zilla Nids' (even though Zilla Nids only came about because GW had a new plastic Carnifex to sell).

And be prepared for the reign of Gaunts and Tyranid Warriors to begin. Swing that pendulum! YEEHA!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The Unending wrote:All in all i'm optimistic about next nid 'dex

That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

well i obviously wont be happy with the changes like that (and playing a genestealer heavy list, i know im definitely not going to like the changes they are likely to get) its definitely time for a change...
id like to see the book balance out a little more and have some choices actually be usable, and having the heavy hitters actually toned down a bit...



/wishlist on
and pl4stic g4rg0yles preeeez
/off

JohnHwangDD wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

The Unending wrote:
But seriously I think GW may (notice the word may) have learned their lesson from Chaos and not take the nerf bat to the Tyranids, but I could see them doing that which will make me a very sad person.

I bet money they pull the rug out from under the Nidzilla players...

No way that I'm taking that bet.

OTOH, I imagine that gaunts will be awesome, and you'll need to buy a *LOT* of them...

But at least the 40+ Gargoyles you'll need to be competitive will be new plastic models.

Not only that, but gaunts will be 8 models a box (and at $22). But at least you'll have the option of buying regular ones or hormies now!

Gargoyles will come in boxes of 5 for $45. They may not be much cheaper than the metals, but they're PLASTIC and have MORE DETAIL and CONVERTABILITY! So they're TOTALLY WORTH IT, honest!

avantgarde wrote:You see people are using the Defile... errr Carnifex incorrectly by sitting back and shooting with them. So the ranged weapon costs will go up (especially the Devourer and any over S7) and come with Scything Talons.

Um, what makes you think that Carnifexes will be allowed to take any ranged weapons at all?

How hard would it be for GW to change things so that only Warriors have access to long-ranged firepower?
____

Mattlov wrote:Did I mention minimum Gaunt brood size went up to 15?

Gargoyles can some amazing ability you will really want, maybe even need (like bio-plasma acts as a melta weapon) They will NOT become plastic.

Carnifexes will lose something.

The minimum brood size will depend entirely on model packaging.

Gargoyles will become plastic and will get awesome options. They will be the "must have" 'feces of 5th Ed in order to sell shedloads of brand new plastics.

As above, Carnifexes should probably lose all R24+" guns. They will have the S7 Ap2 Bio-Plasma Template attack option.

I don't know the exact source or if it is utter BS but Cruddance is rumored to be working on the Tyranid codex. So I wouldn't be surprised with carnifex units and 5 point gaunts that have without number and fleshooks free, or some such.

winterman wrote:... but Cruddance is rumored to be working on the Tyranid codex

Sucks to be a Tyranid player then.

Codex: Arbitrary Mk.II

Genestealers will not see an increase in cost, but Rending is now an upgrade at 6 points per model. To compensate, their armor save will be reduced to 6+.

All living ammo weapons will lose the rule. Devourers will now cost 10 points per attack the model using it has.

All Gaunt genus models have the "Unending Horde" rule. Units comprised of gaunt models take 2x no retreat wounds when they lose combat.

I'm having nightmares already.

And this, my dear friends, is why I posted this thread - for this exact reason.

Don't worry - you'll just have to wait 5 years until your Codex gets redone.

Hope you've got a backup army on hand...

You guys are starting to build cynicism that's incongruent with your other cynicism.

"GW is mean-sucky, so they're going to nerf the army I play!"
"GW wants all my money, boo!"

Guys, have you not seen very obvious, consistent Codex creep for the last 2-3 releases? Orks dominated, now IG has everyone rushing out to buy Valkyries nine-at-a-time.

Do you seriously think Nids are going to get nerfed?

When in doubt, GW is trying to make money. They're not trying to ruin your list.

So, all the cynical "they're gonna nerf what people have, and buff what nobody bought," sure, all that is possible. But the one thing you can be sure of, is that there will be at least a few totally broken units/builds, and everyone will be just getting done crying about "Wolfburn" or "Wolfrush" or whatever the current uber-list is, just in time for the new Nid powerlist.

Orks moved from being below par from neglect and silliness to properly competitive.

But Guard aren't any more powerful than they were. They're about the same - they just win in different ways.

I think that Carnifexes will get more powerful, but will lose some of the current options (no Elite, No Dakkafex, etc.). This is to keep people buying their big plastic kit.

Gaunts and Tyranid Warriors will be buffed.

Genestealers will be (further) nerfed.

And I don't see it as incongruence Phryxis - it is very much an expression of the "they're gonna nerf what people have, and buff what nobody bought" side of things.

Orks moved from being below par from neglect and silliness to properly competitive.

Arguably competitive, anyway.

When in doubt, GW is trying to make money. They're not trying to ruin your list.

Well, unless you play DA or Chaos.

I think they will give some great rules for trygon(next big kit) and plastic gargs... My biggest fear is that they dont allow carnis to be elites anymore, that would be major downgrade.

I'm just happy that I don't go overboard (aka the best thing atm, like Nidzilla) with my tyranids. That way, Gw cannot nerf my army into oblivion with every new codex.

Last time it was the gimping of the rending-gaunt. Oh, the howl of Tyranid gamers. Live and learn, don't play like GW wants you!

Greets
Schepp himself

okies sure 'stealers will be nerfed, sure tyranids will probably lose ALL of their customisation. BUT they will have some new stuff ^^ i mean anyone for a plastic trygorn?

and maybe a plastic hive tyrant omgz!

ofc if gensestealers DO get nerfed how am i supposed to kill my m8s warbuggys in 200 point games??????

Hey.. i like playing against a nid army. Lots of fun. My little guardsmen love to play hi5 with a fex :S

Hope they do great things.. but so far the new codex's of 5th editon are boring and plain. Too "Clean" with little amounts of tasty custom pictures and lore/fluff. I mean check the Tau codex from 3rd to 4th editons. They lost roughly 1/2 of their fluff for no reason!

Nids need fluff.. less it's just going to be 30 pages of NOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM?

Tau lost more than that. We even lost a character for no real reason. (Of course losing one character is no big deal compared to how bad it could have been, but he was cool and had...well, character.)

I'm sure we'll be getting all that back and then some, though...whenever they feel like it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:...And be prepared for the reign of Gaunts and Tyranid Warriors to begin. Swing that pendulum! YEEHA!

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think that Carnifexes will get more powerful, but will lose some of the current options (no Elite, No Dakkafex, etc.). This is to keep people buying their big plastic kit.

I think you're giving GW a bit too much credit. Nidzilla armies will still exist, but it will be because GW will have the new Trygon, which for a lack of originality on GW's part will have access to all of the Carnifexes options, which of course means they'll take those options away from Carnifexes. You know to make the Trygon more "super cool!"

I don't know if they will have the time/resources for a plastic Trygon after the recut 10-model Termagaunt sprue, recut 10-model Hormagaunt sprue, and recut 10-model Ripper sprue.

Its one of the few consistent rumors, that GW has already developed a plastic Trygon and that they are waiting for the codex redo to release it.

While I think a new nids codex will be fun, I'm hoping for a drastic reduction in the cost of hormaguants. I'm still praying DE are coming out after space wolves.

dumplingman wrote:I'm still praying DE are coming out after space wolves.

I guess you should bring a book It might be a while.
As much as I like Nids, I would rather see some Necrons. Since thats not all too likely in the near grimdark future, I guess a Trygon will be ok

Like I've been saying, I think the danger is that GW will treat Tyranids as a band-aid project and won't recognize how much the metagame has changed in 5th. Some of Phil Kelly's mistakes in the current book (which was a very good 4th ed. codex, don't get me wrong) were because he was too slavish to Andy C's 3rd ed. book. Hormagaunts are one example, in that the Leap rule gave them huge offensive output in early 3rd. But when CC rules changed, Leap wasn't as effective, and Hormagaunts weren't adjusted in price or in rules to compensate in the 4th ed. book.

Anyway, that's the kind of thing I'm scared of in the next book...nerfed Nidzilla and reined-in Genestealers and no boosts to Gaunts, Biovores, medium bugs and general tankbusting to compensate.

If it's next up -- and considering that Phil Kelly just did the previous book -- who would we be looking at as a designer? Maybe Mat Ward?

Arby will write the 'Nids Codex.

The Unending wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

Between that and the neutering of the Chaos 'dex and the fact that the 'dex released after Space wolves wasn't Dark Eldar or necrons I think that this plane of existence could not contain the sheer amount of nerd rage which will create a tear in the fabric of reality which will cause GW to lower their prices, realease the new Squats, and for Chuck Norris and MR.T to cause the end of all of existence.

But seriously I think GW may (notice the word may) have learned their lesson from Chaos and not take the nerf bat to the Tyranids, but I could see them doing that which will make me a very sad person.

They didn't nerf the Chaos Codex. In fact, based on tournament statistics since it's release, the 2x Lash Prince + Troops + Obliterators is the most regularly dominant list in the game.

It's very, very powerful. It's just also very, very vanilla. It's the traitors, not the old legions. It's Abaddon's army, it's competitive, and in that capacity, it's perfect. The Legion book will come...

CT GAMER wrote:

The Unending wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:


But seriously I think GW may (notice the word may) have learned their lesson from Chaos and not take the nerf bat to the Tyranids, but I could see them doing that which will make me a very sad person.

I bet money they pull the rug out from under the Nidzilla players...

No they won't. It will just be different.

Carnifex could be moved to HS only, but it may be a 1-3 option, like the Lemun Russ. Also, no more Dakka and Bomber/Boomfex options. Super heavy weapons only, or super heavy CC only. Each in the 1-3 per HS choice will likely have to have similar or the same weapons load-outs. Don't be surprised if the Bio Cannon even makes an appaearance.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Orks moved from being below par from neglect and silliness to properly competitive.

But Guard aren't any more powerful than they were. They're about the same - they just win in different ways.

Guard are easily more powerful than they were. The fact that they have consistent ways of winning is a vast improvement over the previous 'dex.

Orks are not only "properly" competitive, but they have 4 completely viable tier 1 tournament armies, and perhaps the most versatile list in all of 40k. Short of perhaps Flash Gitz, nearly every unit in that Codex is playable on the competitive level. It is steeply competitive, and one of the hardest armies to prepare for because they can come as either all Boyz, all Battlewagons, all Kanz, or a crazy mix.

GW has done an excellent job with their recent codex and army book releases. No matter what they've "nerfed", there has been an equally powerful (or greater) alternative to make the army competitive. Even if Nidzilla - in its current form - goes away, GW will obviously remedy the codex to be competitive in some other capacity. It's the same with Space Wolves. If Thunder Hammers are not available to them, they will obviously have something else to give them an uber the nutz omgz!!!!11!11 unit.

The only thing(s) that would be disappointing is if they kept the 8x + 8x gaunt packaging for $35, as that's a complete ripoff, and if Termagants became the mainstay of the army. The reason I say this is because they simply aren't fun to play. They die without save to every main battle rifle in the game, they can't kill anything, they suffer worse than any other main Troops choice because of No Retreat!, and they can't hold an objective, making them practically useless in 5th edition. They just aren't fun to play like Tactical Marines, Ork Boyz, etc. I'm not saying that Tyranids need a tougher troop, but something to make gaunts worth playing would be nice. If GW plans on converting them to a gaunt-heavy army, make Hormogaunts cheaper, and regular gaunts fun to play.

Wishlisting:

-Cheaper Hormogaunts.
-gaunts that can do more than die like an expensive Grot.
-Genestealers are fine; perhaps a better "rending" option, or a 5+ as the base save.
-Broodlord with Fleet.
-More survivable Raveners and Tyranid Warriors.
-Raveners made plastic and placed as an option in the Tyranid Warriors box. The lower torso could be an option to have legs, or exchanged for a long tail. Their weapons load-outs are the same anyway.
-Not only plastic Gargoyles, but playable Gargoyles.
-Bring back an acid spray or tangle web weapon using the flamer template, but make it only available to Gargoyles, Warriors, and Raveners.
-Hive Tyrant in plastic with all of the options actually present in-box, and/or Tyrant Guard in a $15 plastic (or 3 for $45) like the Bretonnian Pegasus Knight or something.
-Make Lictors capable of doing more than simply providing a pheremone trail for Genestealers.
-Introduce 1 new unit, as is the case for every new army release.

don't forget my two personal fav wishlists.

1. Lictors not taking dt tests when they come into play.
2. DS upgrade for carnifex, including a large blast impact crater at the spot where he lands!

brassangel wrote:The only thing(s) that would be disappointing is if they kept the 8x + 8x gaunt packaging for $35, as that's a complete ripoff, and if Termagants became the mainstay of the army. The reason I say this is because they simply aren't fun to play. They die without save to every main battle rifle in the game, they can't kill anything, they suffer worse than any other main Troops choice because of No Retreat!, and they can't hold an objective, making them practically useless in 5th edition. They just aren't fun to play like Tactical Marines, Ork Boyz, etc. I'm not saying that Tyranids need a tougher troop, but something to make gaunts worth playing would be nice. If GW plans on converting them to a gaunt-heavy army, make Hormogaunts cheaper, and regular gaunts fun to play.

Gaunts get more interesting with a few minor changes.

1) WS4
2) Spinefists count as dual CCWs
3) Synapse grants "player may choose to pass or fail" rather than Fearless

WS boost means they take fewer casualties vs. WS4 units, dual CCW gives them a CC boost, and revised synapse mean they can tarpit effectively again. Pair this with better/cheaper Warriors for more reliable synapse coverage, and I think they'd have something to build on.

Sidstyler wrote:

Orks moved from being below par from neglect and silliness to properly competitive.

Arguably competitive, anyway.

When in doubt, GW is trying to make money. They're not trying to ruin your list.

Well, unless you play DA or Chaos.

Or LATD or Genestealer cult, or...

what about dark eldar!

acreedon wrote:what about dark eldar!

To be nerfed, we'd need a new codex first!

winterman wrote:... but Cruddance is rumored to be working on the Tyranid codex

Well think of it this way. Tyranids will probably be the most numerous Horde army in the game because they'll get an option like IG platoons that allow to have a ridiculous amount of gaunts on the table for cheap.

I don't see any reason why GW would get rid of the "carnifex as elite" option. What is more likely to happen is that you will need a character to unlock it, and Carnifexes will be toned down a little.

Here are the changes that should be made:

1. Gaunts get a points reduction to one of the cheapest troops in the game.
2. Spniefists are more expensive then Devourers.
3. Hormagaunts are 6 points each.
4. Warriors are toughness 5, 4+ save base.
5. Remove no Instant Death within synapse rules.
6. Trim the fat on the options on the units.
7. Remove synapse as a detriment to the army. Rather turn synapse into a system similar to Guard Orders or Faith Points, where synapse creatures simply command units with bonuses. It would be cool for a Hive Tyrant to use synapse to cause a Gaunt brood to ignore leadership modifiers for a turn, or if a Hive Tyrand can order a Carnifex to gain +1 attack.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of synapse creatures as a detriment. I only imagine if GW moved in that direction we'll see all the non-synapse creatures reduced in effectiveness, with the "benefical only" synapse creature brining them upto par.

Right now it's pretty much nothing but a detriment unless you take Warriors and people are unusually inclined to fire missile launchers at them. I wouldn't minds Acts of the Hive Mind or Telepathic Orders or something. Vampire Counts got some sort of magic helm that donates a Vampires high weapon skill to a friendly unit, so why can't we get synapse auras that boost a stat or something? Say a Zoanthrope can choose not to fire but donate it's brainpower to a nearby unit of gaunts to boost their accuracy.

brassangel wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But Guard aren't any more powerful than they were. They're about the same - they just win in different ways.

Guard are easily more powerful than they were. The fact that they have consistent ways of winning is a vast improvement over the previous 'dex.

No way. Drop Guard with 10-pt Plasma are categorically better than what we have today.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

brassangel wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But Guard aren't any more powerful than they were. They're about the same - they just win in different ways.

Guard are easily more powerful than they were. The fact that they have consistent ways of winning is a vast improvement over the previous 'dex.

No way. Drop Guard with 10-pt Plasma are categorically better than what we have today.

...except in KP missions.

I usually don't play VPs or KPs - I play Apoc / Objectives, and Drop Guard is much better.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I usually don't play VPs or KPs - I play Apoc / Objectives, and Drop Guard is much better.

Then you don't play a third of the game.

Guard are much more competitive now with much greater options. Drop Guard suffered from dropping next to the merry go round of tanks most armies can field to limit their effectiveness, or armies that would simple hold things in reserve and counter attack.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of synapse creatures as a detriment. I only imagine if GW moved in that direction we'll see all the non-synapse creatures reduced in effectiveness, with the "benefical only" synapse creature brining them upto par.

The problem with synapse today is that most of the units Tyranids field either don't care about synapse or are a synapse creatures to begin with. The only Tyranid player in the semi-finals of the hard boyz just spammed Carnifexes and Genestealers (like 60 of them).

Synapse has only made poor units poorer. If you transition to Synapse being a benefit, you have a possibility to make units that are "on the bubble" much more useful.

It's similar to Heavy Weapon Teams in the IG book, Orders allow you to get much better use out of them.

I agree. Old guard codex was hands down better then the new one.

Sure we got all kinds of new tanks, most of which will never EVER be used so wtf is the point?

Sure we got new special characters and lost two good ones for no reason other then Oh Guard can actually win with this guy! We cant have that now can we? Most of them will never EVER be used so wtf is the point?

Sure we got new/old art back. However most of which will NEVER ever be used so wtf is the point?

Lets not forget the uncalled for points increase on tanks and their upgrades, the uncalled for points increase on Storm Troopers and Ogryn, the 11 pt T2 ratlings...

Do you see a trend?

Ive played guard since 2nd ED and im getting sick and tired of constantly haveing a frigging shelf FULL of models that im never going to use again.

I had very high hopes for this new edition, espically when I thought id be bringing my old tanks/arty back to the field of battle.

Nope.

If I want to be Tourny capable I have to go out and spend yet more money on new shiny models.

Guard Meet Shelf. On that shelf meet my LATD, IG AC, and Pure Harley Army.

Think ill go back to playing All things Zombie and Nuts! Until GW pulls its head out of its ass.

I'm looking forward to getting some new nids. I hope I can get all my new guard stuff done by then

I predict/wishlist the new models we will get will be the trygon for apocalypse, a plastic hive tyrant, new plastic warriors with tons of extra bitz so they can also be assembled as lictors or tyrant guard with an optional direct only upgrade sprue with snakey tails to make raveners. They'll split the guants into separate boxes of hormagaunts and termagants and sell em as 12 in a box for $25.

The next 40K codex after wolves wont come out untill april.(wolves hit in october then a fantasy will hit in january then 40k in april, new codex every 3 months) Why would it be nids anyway? You could fix their codex with a proper errata. The necrons need one the most, or Dark Eldar would be cool even though they dont need it. In all honesty I would like to see all the inquisitional armies put into one big book, even though I hate them.(fluff wise) Nids are still a competitive army.

An IG player complaining about his codex? What's next? A vanilla space marine player complaining about their codex? Sometimes it seems like no one is happy on this board.

I'll start a positive wave. I like my Ork codex. Lost some options, but I feel like I gained alot more than I lost.

I think the nids are really first in line for needing a codex update. There just seems like there is alot of 5th edition lists that they will struggle with currently. If I was a 'nid player I would be praying for a new release. I'm a Tau player and I'm hoping that we get a new codex to rebalance us, and get some new models into the line. Though I get excited about modeling updates to my armies. It seems like some people are less enthusiastic about the subject though.

Though Necrons really need a plastic immortals box. If you aren't converting some warriors to immortals, you are gonna be paying big time for that squad. What is it right now like 14 bucks per immortal. You wanna field 10 of those suckers, well you better start saving.

Hate to break this to you newbie, but Guard players have complained about their army for a very long time.. longer then im sure you have even known about 40k. Ask anyone here who has played guard for longer then the last codex update and can remember this codex:

And they will tell you the same thing I am telling you.

Lets look at this in another light....
Guard have long been considered a weak army. This last codex gave us a shift in power yes, not a vertical shift like we were hopeing for but a horizontal shift.

So if nothing has really changed then guess what? Its still a weak army.

Then continue to be unhappy. Also insult me a bit more before you leave.

I think the new Guard book is great although admittedly I have not played it much. Strong shooting and some nice close combat staying power. Sort of the opposite of the Ork book.

Tacobake wrote:I think the new Guard book is great although admittedly I have not played it much. Strong shooting and some nice close combat staying power. Sort of the opposite of the Ork book.

Which is good because Orks and IG are played up as being archenemies much like CSM and SM are (though in a different way)

The Fluff talks about the Orks Facing the IG more than any other Faction.

jp400 wrote:Hate to break this to you newbie, but Guard players have complained about their army for a very long time.. longer then im sure you have even known about 40k. Ask anyone here who has played guard for longer then the last codex update and can remember this codex:

And they will tell you the same thing I am telling you.

Lets look at this in another light....
Guard have long been considered a weak army. This last codex gave us a shift in power yes, not a vertical shift like we were hopeing for but a horizontal shift.

So if nothing has really changed then guess what? Its still a weak army.

And that is just one more reason to play IG. If they really were/are a weak army, then the challenge is to figure out how to win with them.

I agree that they are not now, nor have they ever been (even WAYYYY back when they could have predators, land raiders and speeders) an uber army. They are still, when played correctly & with a bit of luck, an army that you CAN win with.

As far as a new 'nids codex goes, I'm 100% positive that something I really like will get the ax and that something new will pop up to replace it. That is just the way it goes..

This thread makes me chuckle. If you look at the different codex updates, you realize that what happens to armies changes a lot. Look at marines. They went from a very flexible, trait-system army to a now, "I'm a wuss. I'll stand and shoot even though I'm the greatest in hth as well."

No, MARK MY WORDS AND QUOTE ME ON THIS, Nids won't even have the features they do now. All of you loving feeder tendrils. They're GONE, replaced! Like I said, things change in every codex, it has to be taken into account. I doubt you'll like what you'll see at first, but you'll learn to enjoy it and play them, or switch armies. Either option will keep you playing and GW will make money.

@Taco:
Strong shooting is great! If you can shoot for longer then Turn 1.

I remember when even a fast army would take a FULL 2-3 turns before they were in your lines. Now, your opponent can be in your line before the end of HIS turn 1 phase With some armies.

Shooting has always been the one thing that guard have had going for them. They are supposed to be THE tank army of the game, but even in the new codex that isnt the case. (espically when in 5th Melta spam is King)

Even with every little dirty trick in the new guard codex, Guard h2h is still a joke when compared to other armies dedicated h2h and thats the way its supposed to be. Guard shouldnt be winning h2h contests, its not what our army is supposed to do.

@ Phill: Leave? Been here for a few years, and am not going anywhere soon. Sorry you dont like me calling a spade a spade, but you come across as someone that hasnt played for very long.

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:(wolves hit in october then a fantasy will hit in january then 40k in april, new codex every 3 months)

Your math is off. October + 3 Months = February, not April. Fantasy doesn't figure into the "Codex every 3 months" equation. The next Fantasy book should actually be due in November just like last year.

Wow, I've never felt so unwelcome. Maybe I should leave. It's like I took a crap on your couch or something.

@ J'santai Khan:
I agree, The challenge is fun and thats why ive stuck with them for as long as I have. However, that train of though can only carry one so far before you go enough is enough.

I still miss my Company Medic Mounted on a bike.

I think orks also fight SM just as much as guard.
Anyway back on topic I really hope that they don't screw
over synapse or any other hard hitters, what I want to see is a way to destroy heavy tanks(armor 14) without carnifexes, so swarm armies can fight and win. I think gaunts should be able to crush vehicles under their combined weight or something like they did to titains on
macragge that would be badass

Now that is something ive love to see in CGI

Back to 'Nids....

As has been said before, 'Nids are in serious need of some anti-tank firepower outside of VC/BS on 'Fexes.

Plastic Gargoyles would be nice, but only if they make them worthwhile to take.

Biovore/Sporemine KP rules need to be fixed, even if it is a unit that didn't see much play before the KP snafu.

Units overall need to have point costs lowered. It is a shame when the 'Nid horde can be outnumbered by Imperial Guard and/or Orks.

Gavvin Quinn wrote:Back to 'Nids....

As has been said before, 'Nids are in serious need of some anti-tank firepower outside of VC/BS on 'Fexes.

Plastic Gargoyles would be nice, but only if they make them worthwhile to take.

Biovore/Sporemine KP rules need to be fixed, even if it is a unit that didn't see much play before the KP snafu.

Units overall need to have point costs lowered. It is a shame when the 'Nid horde can be outnumbered by Imperial Guard and/or Orks.

In regards to the anti-tank I could see some sort of acid weapon that acts like a melta or an increase in the variety of MC in the army (as in we'll get some different MC that can hunt vehicles better than a carnifex If the hive mind adapts to different situations shouldn't it create something specifically designed to kill mech)

And as far as nid horde goes someone said the same guy that wrote the IG codex is writing the 'nid 'dex so I could see something similar to platoons (Swarms ) which would solve the outnumbering problem.

Platoons are an IG-specific thing. I don't see GW implementing it in any other Codex. What I COULD see happening is allowing multiple Carnifexes in a single HS slot, especially if they kill off Elite 'Fexes. No, I think simply lowering the cost of most of the Troops/FA choices will solve the numbers issue.

A melta-type weapon would be most welcome. Right now, 'Nids really have no reliable answer to AV 14. Sure, CC 'Fexes can run, but you can't roll a 6 every turn. Also, CC 'Fexes detract from your only sorce of high-strength firepower.

Platuan4th wrote:

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:(wolves hit in october then a fantasy will hit in january then 40k in april, new codex every 3 months)

Your math is off. October + 3 Months = February, not April. Fantasy doesn't figure into the "Codex every 3 months" equation. The next Fantasy book should actually be due in November just like last year.

My local shop owner explained that they come out with a new 40k/fantasy codex every 3 months so there is a new 40K codex every six months I dont know if he is correct or not. (most of the time not) but if he is right a new 40K codex should come out in may... I think. Guard came out in may of this year correct? If so we should have a new codex then in may of 2010

Hopefully the next Nid codex will be very CC-oriented.

- Bring back rending Hormies (even if they are expensive).
- Feeder tendrils as an option for most CC units (even HT).
- Trygon kits with no ranged weapons.
- Make GunFexes more expensive.
- Make Tyranid Fleet faster/better.

GW will obviously change a lot in the rules, both to make Nids more playable (nerfing units that are to good and boosting sucky ones) - but also to sell more stuff.
I.e. a shift to a more CC-oriented army is almost a given.

Hopefully they will not remove combinations (as with rending hormies) - they can always just make these combos more expensive, point wise.

(BTW. Jervis is my hero. The hobby needs more of the likes of him - and less "beardy Tournament players")

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:
My local shop owner explained that they come out with a new 40k/fantasy codex every 3 months so there is a new 40K codex every six months I dont know if he is correct or not. (most of the time not) but if he is right a new 40K codex should come out in may... I think. Guard came out in may of this year correct? If so we should have a new codex then in may of 2010

He's very, very wrong. Last year in this exact time frame was Marines in October followed by Fantasy Chaos Warriors in November. It's 3 months within each system, not all around.

Platuan4th wrote:

Da Big WAAAGH! wrote:
My local shop owner explained that they come out with a new 40k/fantasy codex every 3 months so there is a new 40K codex every six months I dont know if he is correct or not. (most of the time not) but if he is right a new 40K codex should come out in may... I think. Guard came out in may of this year correct? If so we should have a new codex then in may of 2010

He's very, very wrong. Last year in this exact time frame was Marines in October followed by Fantasy Chaos Warriors in November. It's 3 months within each system, not all around.

OK, I always though he was wrong, just never sat down and though about it... *sigh* The simple life is nice
But if it's three months between each system shouldnt we be due a 40K codex?
How much time is actually pasted between each 40K codex?

Mahu wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I usually don't play VPs or KPs - I play Apoc / Objectives, and Drop Guard is much better.

Then you don't play a third of the game.

Guard are much more competitive now with much greater options. Drop Guard suffered from dropping next to the merry go round of tanks most armies can field to limit their effectiveness, or armies that would simple hold things in reserve and counter attack.

And I'm a better person for it. VP/KP are an artifact of obsolete gaming concepts, like "guess". Apoc / Scenario gaming is simply fun, getting back to the purity of playing toy soldiers, and that's why I'm still in "the hobby" at all.

Don't be silly. Guard are far less competitive than before when you look at Apoc play. Drop Guard don't pay points for Chimeras or Valkyries which give up KPs just as easily as extra units of Guardsmen. Drop Guard simply have more warm, Scoring bodies with mean, nasty guns to kill stuff with. If they want to field tanks, great. I've got Demolishers and Russes & Bassies, and in Apoc, I field all of them at once. If the enemy is in Reserves, so much the better for me.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mahu wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I usually don't play VPs or KPs - I play Apoc / Objectives, and Drop Guard is much better.

Then you don't play a third of the game.

Guard are much more competitive now with much greater options. Drop Guard suffered from dropping next to the merry go round of tanks most armies can field to limit their effectiveness, or armies that would simple hold things in reserve and counter attack.

And I'm a better person for it. VP/KP are an artifact of obsolete gaming concepts, like "guess". Apoc / Scenario gaming is simply fun, getting back to the purity of playing toy soldiers, and that's why I'm still in "the hobby" at all.

Don't be silly. Guard are far less competitive than before when you look at Apoc play. Drop Guard don't pay points for Chimeras or Valkyries which give up KPs just as easily as extra units of Guardsmen. Drop Guard simply have more warm, Scoring bodies with mean, nasty guns to kill stuff with. If they want to field tanks, great. I've got Demolishers and Russes & Bassies, and in Apoc, I field all of them at once. If the enemy is in Reserves, so much the better for me.

First, "competitive" and "Apocolypse" don't go together. It's no good saying that the new rules let you be more competitive, when you are only playing a system that lets you ignore whatever rules interfere with your narrative. For your sake, and for those like you, I'm glad Apoc makes you happy. But it's meaningless to bring it up when discussing competitive 40k; it's just about as useful as the suggestions to treat Necrons as stubborn to fix their woes, when the topic is a tournament-ready Necron build. It's a solution, but not a solution to the problem at hand.

For those of us still stuck in the mundane and drab world of "normal" 40k, we have to consider things like kill points.

Second, the change to the IG "independent" characters alone made KPs better. Everything else is just gravy.

OK, substitute the word "effective" or "useful" in the Apocalypse context - I used "competitive", as that seems to be better understood on Dakka. And, while Apoc doesn't require specific FOCs or such, we still play with points limits and self-impose restrictions on themed forces or so forth.

Besides, it's not like what's "good" in Apoc doesn't overlap what's "good" for ordinary 40k... Or are you going to argue that Apoc sucktastic Stormtroopers, Ratlings, and Ogryns are somehow "good" in ordinary 40k???

Ratlings are good because their midgets. What's not to love?

Everything about them stat wise... When a normal guardsmen is 5 pts and have better stats in damn near everything while these guys cost 11 pts per model...... yeah....

Fail.

jp400 wrote:Everything about them stat wise... When a normal guardsmen is 5 pts and have better stats in damn near everything while these guys cost 11 pts per model...... yeah....

Fail.

There is much wrongness in this sentence.
And much having nothing to do with tyranid codex releases.

February sounds quite right. Hopefully, Space hulk will be out around Christmas, that would be a present under the Christmas tree. Yay.

Greets
Schepp himself

I think there should be a new rule, you can only complain about a codex you don't play and only if it is about how it is underpowered.

On ratlings, they have a slew of special rules guardsmen don't.

Tyranids are likely being done because they are perceived as a quick fix.

GW is spending a lot more time on non-codex related material, that time demand has probably been forcing designer to take paths of least resistance in finishing projects. so anything that requires minimal work is getting finished first.

If Robin Cruddance is writing nids, then I'm even MORE on board!!!

Look at the last two books put out, and count the competitive lists in each. These are lists that can be tweaked to personal taste, but function almost with separate personalities.

SM
drop pod alpha strike
mechanized multi-melta rush
laserback or assback combat squad hybrid gunline
land raider rush with assault terminators

IG
valkyrie alpha strike
mech vet/devildog rush
vendetta/artillery/platoon hybrid gunline
creed or straken powered guyspam

The books have been good before these last two, but their focus was more simple, with one or two ways to write a list competitively. But these new books have these different archetypical list types, that can share units and hybridize even further.

Here are some things Robin got right that can be applied to tyranids.

Look at guardsman marbo. He is suicidal, sneaky, worth his points, potentially devastating, but not broken. Wouldn't lictors be awesome if they behaved similarly to marbo?

guardsmen. 4.5 points is about pot on for what they deliver. You can customize them with heavy weapons, special weapons, both or none. There are a great many ways to boost their effectiveness with unique army rules. Orders/commissars/special character bubbles/priests. All of them optional, none of them undesirable in all cases.

Good fast attack choices. IG getting good, fast, fast attack choices? When has that happened? It still didn't manage to make them 'feel' less guard-like.

He confidently took vehicle squadrons and made that a feature of codex building. Not just one or two units, but just about anything. I'd bet that we may lose elite carnifexes, only to gain a unit of monstrous creatures. 1-2 carnifexes per heavy slot. I don't think robin wold be afraid to try 1-3 fexes per unit and can get that to work. This will open up elite slots for things we'll want.


Here is what i expect will happen in broad strokes...

Hive tyrants will be fantastic, with a new plastic kit, and a reworked synapse ruleset that supplies more than just fearless to units. Each synapse type could give something special to units, and different synapse upgrades could apply.

Broodlord, if it stays will probably miss the competitive mark, it will probably move genestealers back to troops (which i'll predict they won't be anymore)

Warriors will hit. I bet they'll be looking at them very closely, and making them work out well will be priority. I wouldn't guess cheaper. I'd guess more survivable somehow, with synapse upgrade options and either excellent shooting or excellent close combat. Like nobs on foot grade close combat.

lictors. Will likely be a optional, useful mid power unit. a marbo or single buzzsaw/rokkit deffkopta type power level.

genestealers. Infiltrate, scout, fleet, rending. They'll probably be all kinds of scary to infantry, will fall short of killing tanks, will lose scoring unless accompanied by a broodlord, non nid players will complain about how good they'll look for the points, but nid players will see that the loss of scoring and their inability to open armor will make them nerfed.

gaunts. I'm thinking were gonna see 3 point gaunts. Possibly WoN standard. I have a hunch GW is going to be pushing both kinds of gaunts on us. I'm up for a modernized horde, to put an emphasis on guns that don't start with an 'm' and end with 'elta'

hormagaunts. strength 4 standard troop staple. Most likely. Will get a marked cost reduction, and gain some serious respect.

ripper swarm. Non-scoring, non-offensive, speed bump isn't working for any of the armies that have them. i say they'll miss.

gargoyles. Even if they got a new plastic kit I'd wager these will miss the mark. Nobody at GW has really figured out jump infantry, fragile, not too aggressive, non-scoring jump infantry isn't going to get solved by this book.

raveners. This might be another miss, but has the potential to be a vehicle wrecking assault unit. Think fiends of slaanesh. Lots of high strength rending attacks with beast status could earn them a spot in a competitive nid list. Possibly interacting with some sort of synapse power-up.

zoanthropes. probably become a unit. Might be providers/amplifiers of whatever synapse fun they come up with.

carnifex. My guess is that this guy will stay the backbone of the army. Nids need ranged transport kill. I don't think they need ranged land raider piece of cake destruction. But reliable, cheap chimera/rhino obliteration. They can worry about land raiders with expensive rare shooting answers or just by earning it in CC. Carnifex venom cannons will be turned into some kind of light vehicle can opener.

biovores. i'd look for them to be buffed, and end up good, but be underpowered considering the metagame. I'm thinking along the lines of the thunderfire cannon. Quite good, if people weren't toally meched up.


When you are looking to see what they are going to do with your favorite units, just take a look at the sprue if its a full plastic kit. The rules are written around the planning stages of model production. The carnifex kit comes with two pretty huge guns, expect two pretty big gun options for them. Same with warriors, they have some guns in their kit, along with CC upgrades. For things like the hive tyrant, which will likely get its own plastic box set. its harder to predict.

I would also assume that everything that had wing options will keep them, and they won't get moved to a new slot. but its safe to assume that wing biomorphs will take up 'arm' hardpoints, like they do on the forgeworld products.

I'm really looking forward to a fresh new modern 5th ed. army that has neither meltaguns nor transports. With great transport kill, but not so fantastic ranged heavy tank kill, and melta immunity. That will really stress list builders to bring more than just a few multi-meltas to a list. And no that won't 'just make transports better' I don't use melta on transports with my gunline armies, I use vendetta lascannons. (they also have 2 heavy bolters) meltas are there for land raiders. AS long as a shooty fex can shoot like a vendetta, and you can take as many shooty fexes as you want, then i think we will see some serious meta-game shifting and hustling to include the right kind of guns.


And as to the rumor of nids being early 2010. I think its beyond obvious that its the case. There was an early playtest leak a few months ago, we've heard rumblings of nids being soon since then, over and over. And the shot in the arm that a fresh nid codex would give boxhammer 40k would be a real boon to the game.

Shep wrote:There was an early playtest leak a few months ago...

It was a fake. The author even came onto Dakka to explain the choices he made.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shep wrote:There was an early playtest leak a few months ago...

It was a fake. The author even came onto Dakka to explain the choices he made.

That's unfortunate. Any chance that BOLS "source" was the appearance of that fake playtest leak? If so, its possible that we'll see necrons early 2010?

BOLS wouldn't claim to have an inside source without actually having one... would they?

BOLS reports anything and everything, even things that are false, usually a week after they've been proven false. Their QA when it comes to rumours is lacking.

They take more of a scattergun approach to reporting rumours - report everything and see what sticks.

As far as inside sources go, we've had Taco Bell claim that inside sources have confirmed Space Hulk, yet we've had just as many sources claiming it isn't Space Hulk - so who knows what to believe.

BOLS is what it is, nobody is claiming they are MSNBC or Fox News. Wait, those analogies might be apt.

Games Workshop is the only "credible" news source, everything else is fans posting rumors. BOLS wins because of their convience factor.

I agree with Shep though, I may be interested in the Nids if they get a proper 5th edition codex.

One thing they have to do is make Spore Mines large blasts.

Look the guys at BoLS are doing the best they can. In fact if it wasn't for them we wouldn't be talking about half the stuff we are.

As far as the Tyranids go it seems that Everything from here on out is just wishlisting (though alot of it is interesting if unfounded and I've even contributed some).

The Unending wrote:In fact if it wasn't for them we wouldn't be talking about half the stuff we are.

Yes we would. We'd just be copypasta-ing threads from USE TACTICS Land rather than BoLS.

I have no beef with BoLS - I go there once virtually every day and have even started lurking in their Lounge - but their rumours need a little more QA. There was one a while ago that was a direct copypasta from a thread here, and on the second page of that thread the rumour as disproven. BoLS posted it a week after the thread was started, and didn't bother to read anything beyond the first page. That's sloppy, and it's not the only example.

Nobody is perfect and things can slip through. I am sure the would be more careful if they made a living wage off that site rather then the minor amount of internet monies that they do.

I still haven't found a better overall gaming blog, so that is something.

Shep, will you go to Games Workshop and write the new Tyranids book for us? That was exactly what I want to see.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shep wrote:There was an early playtest leak a few months ago...

It was a fake. The author even came onto Dakka to explain the choices he made.

Would you happen to have a link to that thread? I'm curious what his reasons were.

Oooh... it was a while ago. Try a search for Tyranids in the Proposed Rules forum - that's where the thread was posted.

I think the Nids should get some acid maw anti-tank stuff... heck, use the rules from the Tzeenchian Screamers from the Daemon army. Just give 'em legs instead of flying..

I always thought those things were more Niddy than Demonic..

-P

To fix the anti tank thing, they could just have maybe fexes with toxin sacs count as doing penetrating hits instead of glancing. since adding +1 str to a fex is kind of moot most of the time...

I haven't played my nids in a while but I always took warp blast as my anti tank weapon and it always seemed to work good for me, maybe I was just lucky.

Or just let the Venom Cannon penetrate. There's no reason for it not to.

Is someone really complaining about IG in this thread? Didn't the new dex basically make them the top army atm? (as long as you are playing a power list ofc)


Anyways, I wouldn't be suprised if nids lost a lot of their guns and the entire army is given fleet.

Also I am with you guys on betting gargoyles become amazing. Maybe some sick shooting attack or something. (like str 6 ap 1, melta 12" or 18" range)

i hope they bring back the MASSIVE MUTIBILITY of 3rd ed nids. this would be epic win.

and make it so you can have gargoyles with scything talons....

Necros wrote:
I haven't played my nids in a while but I always took warp blast as my anti tank weapon and it always seemed to work good for me, maybe I was just lucky.

Yes, you are lucky.

Personally, I am very good at failing the Psychic test, and even if I pass it, the BS of 3 with a single shot is not the best of odds.

Timmah wrote:Is someone really complaining about IG in this thread? Didn't the new dex basically make them the top army atm? (as long as you are playing a power list ofc)

Anyways, I wouldn't be suprised if nids lost a lot of their guns and the entire army is given fleet.

Also I am with you guys on betting gargoyles become amazing. Maybe some sick shooting attack or something. (like str 6 ap 1, melta 12" or 18" range)

I don't we IG players have as much to complain about as before. People who exclusively play power lists have no souls and don't count towarsds army comparissons.

I think your right, on the nids. Especially since GW will want to update their minis.

Mahu wrote:Nobody is perfect and things can slip through. I am sure the would be more careful if they made a living wage off that site rather then the minor amount of internet monies that they do.

The whole "nobody is perfect" thing works if its only everyonce and a while, but with the Taco Bell of Lost Souls, its pretty consistent. Any rumor not proven wrong in the first page of a thread, they will assume is correct even if proven wrong at the top of the next page.

Its like watching the nightly news for word on your townhall meeting, instead of going to it. Each degree of separation increases interpretation with diminishing quality and reliability as to the original rumor or fact. Even before it gets online you have atleast one degree of separation. The taco bell rehash makes it two and when the guy who never pays attention reposts it here a week later its another. Each time less worthwhile and less reliable.

Just cause you get a shiny new dex doesnt automatically make you a top tier army.

OT:
With the current GW trend, I dont think mutability is comming back this update. It would be nice though.

Actually, given how they approached Leman Russ/Hellhound variants for the IG, I'd expect they will name 5 or 6 different Carnifexes, 2 or 3 different Hive tyrants, and remove most of the "build your own" options entirely.

Janthkin wrote:Actually, given how they approached Leman Russ/Hellhound variants for the IG, I'd expect they will name 5 or 6 different Carnifexes, 2 or 3 different Hive tyrants, and remove most of the "build your own" options entirely.

Agree 100%.

Despite the ideas in previous 'nid codexes of the vast mutability and diversity of Tyranids the idea of a high cutomization just doesnt fit the current 5th edition mantra and I also suspect you will see set variants of various tyranid beasties with some of the more extreme builds available at present( extreme dakka fex, etc.) toned down...

I would expect a return to tyranids being presented as the ultimate swarm army: Gaunts/gants will get silly cheap and perhaps you buy multiple units (1-5) as a single force org slot.

I expect to see some form of "without number" mechanic as standard or as an upgrade which moves to them to some other force org slots (elites, etc.).

Just my hunch. I could be wrong...

I want Without Number Carnifexes...

I think the vast options will remain. Every other army has significant options for a squad, why can't the "Ever Evolving Devourer?"

I can see it going more in line with other armies like this:

Genestealer Brood:
5-10 Genestealers per brood
All Are equipped with Rending Claws. For X points they may add Scything Talons.
One Genestealer may upgrade to Feeder Tendrils for X points.

I don't expect to see things quite as codified as 5-6 Carnifex types. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see elite Carnifexes stay, but only as a separate Elites entry in an old-school "Screamer-Killer" build. So if you want a shooty Carnifex, you'd have to buy them out of HS. I'm pretty sure I'll be patting myself on the back for magnetizing all my Carnifex arms.

I think scuttlers/outflanking has a chance to become more of a central army concept, too. If I was the designer, I'd at least explore that.

I don't think we'll see mycetic spores return to allow drop armies, but I think it'd be an interesting variant and not as difficult to implement than it would appear at first blush.

I wouldn't be surprised to see elite Carnifexes stay, but only as a separate Elites entry in an old-school "Screamer-Killer" build. So if you want a shooty Carnifex, you'd have to buy them out of HS.

"Old school" Carnifexes actually had a pretty hardcore long-range shooting attack. They were beasts at range and in HtH. Then again, this was back in the day when a single Genestealer could give today's special characters a run for their money.

I don't expect to see the mutability leave since that has always been a big part of what makes Tyranids unique. I do, however, expect a pretty radical shake-up of what everything can be given.

I'd be absolutely thrilled if the 'Nids get to fool around with deployment and reserves via everything outflanking and/or coming back after it dies. That sounds hilarious. It may be a *little* broken if they expand it past gaunts and their variants but hilarious. I really do think they should include that somehow. It's not like outflanking gaunts would really cause anyone that much of a problem. Now, if they institute the much-needed price drops on Hormagaunts and Gargoyles, I can see how that'd be an issue. Yes, you have to stay at least 19" from both sides of the board or get assaulted. Enjoy!

CT GAMER wrote:
I would expect a return to tyranids being presented as the ultimate swarm army: Gaunts/gants will get silly cheap and perhaps you buy multiple units (1-5) as a single force org slot.

I get an image of Gaunts crushing most dedicated assault troops under their sheer weight of numbers alone.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

But all that dissapointment wil go away when they reveal the new Ultracarnirant! It's got a Demolisher Cannon that can use Lash of Submission 4 times and fires Nob Bikerz! And due to fuzzy wording, it also fires on the opponent's turn twice.

I want em to bring back "Jones is acting strangely"

I could imagine GW fixing the Dakkafex problem like this:
- BS4 Warriors as Elites
- BS2 Carnifexes as Heavy
This allows Carnifexes to still hit hard, but the problem is actually hitting. Warriors wouldn't hit quite as hard, but they'd usually hit.

Plus, GW can move the "Heavy" guns from Tyrant and Carnifex to the Warriors, while mandating a set of CC arms on each Carnifex.

Wow! All this talk of solidifying* what weapons Tyranids can have and adding in more robust unit descriptions** - it just sounds like so much fun***!!!!!!!!!




*NB: If by "solidifying" you mean "limiting".
**NB: If by "descriptions" you mean "restrictions".
***NB: Does not actually sound like fun.

The Unending wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
I would expect a return to tyranids being presented as the ultimate swarm army: Gaunts/gants will get silly cheap and perhaps you buy multiple units (1-5) as a single force org slot.

I get an image of Gaunts crushing most dedicated assault troops under their sheer weight of numbers alone.

Yeah. I agree.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Wow! All this talk of solidifying* what weapons Tyranids can have and adding in more robust unit descriptions** - it just sounds like so much fun***!!!!!!!!!




*NB: If by "solidifying" you mean "limiting".
**NB: If by "descriptions" you mean "restrictions".
***NB: Does not actually sound like fun.

It's coming, like it or not. Get the lube ready and smile...

I recently traded off my nids in anticipation. My spider sense was tingling...

jp400 wrote:lots of stupid stuff

You, be nice to new members and stop with your bs. IG are better than they have EVER been. Yeah before they had one competitive build, drop IG spam. Now they have several and can even compete in KP missions.

Shep wrote:Lots of really good stuff

Thank god Shep is here to bring some reason and good analysis to the knee-jerkers.

Oh give it a rest Ozy. Knee-jerking may be part of this, but come-the-feth-on - we have precidents to work with. We know the pendulum is going to be swung hard with this book, so why shouldn't players lament the loss of their lists?

Ozymandias wrote:

Thank god Shep is here to bring some reason and good analysis

I guess he is picking up your slack as well?

I'm not saying not to lament the loss of this list but jp400 is saying that IG has always been weak and this last codex was a horizontal shift which is just completely false. And he was a dick to boot to a new member for no reason.

And look at the last few books. IG got MORE options net, SM got MORE options net, and Orks got MORE options net. So going by precedents, a few carnifex's arms may have to be broken off but to think that the Nid codex is going to be nuked wholesale is NOT based on 5th ed precedent.

Wow, Emo nids. Who would have thought that Emo's would be the saving grace of humanity?

Who could have even dreamed that if you feed Tyranids enough Emo IG players that at some point they would turn their scything talons upon themselves?

Everyone celebrate, GW figured out how to save the Galaxy from the Great Devourer. (Claps hands)YAAAYYY!!


In reality,
I'm looking forward to this next 'Nids dex now. Unless GW takes away their scything talons so they can't cut themselves.

Seriously, Looking forward to the New 'Nids 'Dex when ever it gets here. GW will do a good job on making 5th ed current.

6th ed will be another matter. Don't know if they will be built to last as it were.

List of things to look for, IMO

Hive mind powers getting softened a bit to reflect the new fluff in the 5th ed BRB.

Venom Cannon looses open-topped only Nerf and instead becomes a BS based Assaut 3

Expect the assault X or 2X type profiles to go away. People that play, don't do math according to GW.

Scything Talon rules will get reworked under the heading of rules clarity. May go away as wargear and become built into specific units.

GW will try to help the continued resurgence of the warriors. How this turns out will be anybody's guess.

Spore mine rule will be reworked in the name of clarity and will become even more problematic due to an obvious sentence being left out.

Look for the mandatory "New" Unit release.

Expect the "New" Unit to be nothing more than 12 prepackaged Carnifex's which will all be pre-written and listed in the codex with only a few options.

Look for 'Nids to get FNP, Rage, and a bunch of other stuff in a "prewritten" and already included in unit profile kind of way.





Off-topic: @ Shep- How you doin? Were you able to make anything of that Ninja build?


@Any guard player who thinks the last codex was better-Play the old books best list against the new ones in a series of games and let me know how it turns out. Seriously, am interested in how it turns out. But, only in an IG thread.

CT GAMER wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

Thank god Shep is here to bring some reason and good analysis

I guess he is picking up your slack as well?

When exactly was I knee-jerking? Or for that matter making any analysis?

But yes, Shep did a better job explaining the potential of the upcoming Nid dex than I would have.

Ozymandias wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

Thank god Shep is here to bring some reason and good analysis

I guess he is picking up your slack as well?

When exactly was I knee-jerking? Or for that matter making any analysis?

But yes, Shep did a better job explaining the potential of the upcoming Nid dex than I would have.

I was referring to your bad analysis of this thread and the lack of reason in said analysis...

Notice I didn't quote the knee jerk statement so I thus made no claim of you knee-jerking.

Well I'll give you an A- for effort but only a C- for the insult.

Ozymandias wrote:Well I'll give you an A- for effort but only a C- for the insult.

I guess its a wash, I gave your trolling C for content but the effort was a little weak at a B+

Ozymandias wrote:I'm not saying not to lament the loss of this list but jp400 is saying that IG has always been weak and this last codex was a horizontal shift which is just completely false. And he was a dick to boot to a new member for no reason..

What are you smokeing? Guard has always been a sub par army end of story! The only reason why they do as well as they do is cause in the past the people that have stuck with them tend to be a better player then most. You had to be to win with them. Funny how quickly people forget these things. Also I was far from being a dick buddy boy. If you really want me to be a dick I can be.

Ozymandias wrote:And look at the last few books. IG got MORE options net, SM got MORE options net, and Orks got MORE options net. So going by precedents, a few carnifex's arms may have to be broken off but to think that the Nid codex is going to be nuked wholesale is NOT based on 5th ed precedent.

More options dont mean squat if 1/2 of them will never EVER be fielded outside "fun" play due to restrictions/limitations, Overcost base cost or upgrades, made obsolete by other codex choices ect ect ect. Once Again guard are a perfect example of this. Why Field Ratlings when you can field SOBS for the same cost? Why field Stormtroopers when you can take space marines for the same cost? Why field Ogryn when you can field GKT for near the same cost? Why field a tank that costs more then a land raider when you can field a land raider? Why Field Roughriders.......I could go on but you get the idea.

If Guard are so high and mighty, how come you dont see more IG armies placeing top 10 in any GW event? Oh thats right, cause they are a MID TIER army at best. Everyone once in a while a good player gets lucky and he comes out on top.

Well this thread was fun while it lasted...

I demand an Ork Emoticon eating popcorn.

Sorry HBMC..
Moveing on.

OT:
I actually dont mind Nidzilla builds. I feel that really all that needs to be changed with the current dex is that points needs to be reduced in some areas, and options made so that people will actually play with em... (Garg/)

As it happens I'd prefer a return to more swarm-like 'Nids. I think that's the way 'Nids should be. What I don't want is a return to Swarm 'Nids simply because they want to start selling Gaunts and Warriors again as opposed to 'Fexes.

We all know that DE are coming out in Feb.

















































Of aught-never.

Agreed. 'Nids shouldn't be a small elite force outside of Nidzilla builds. Isn't the typical image of the Tyranids supposed to be an endless horde of Gaunts sweeping across the landscape?

jp400 wrote:

What are you smokeing? Guard has always been a sub par army end of story! The only reason why they do as well as they do is cause in the past the people that have stuck with them tend to be a better player then most. You had to be to win with them. Funny how quickly people forget these things. Also I was far from being a dick buddy boy. If you really want me to be a dick I can be.

How about a nice "No."?

Stay on topic.

STOP the personal attacks.

OK?

Tyranids will use small elite forces, subterfuge and assassination teams when it's necessary. Infiltration of genestealer broods is a common" tactic. I'd love to see Swarm-Nids that work, but cutting the list down to just swarm Nids would be a disservice to the army, and cut out many players who would rather re-create Alien or Godzilla rather than Starship Troopers.

MilkmanAl wrote:"Old school" Carnifexes actually had a pretty hardcore long-range shooting attack. They were beasts at range and in HtH. Then again, this was back in the day when a single Genestealer could give today's special characters a run for their money.

It was a pretty good "gun"...roughly equivalent to a battlecannon, IIRC. The thing was that you tended not to fire it much (unless you have the right biomorph, and even then only once, IIRC) because the Carnifex was *fantastic* as a moving screen. Second ed. Carnifexes -- biomorphed properly -- were one of the toughest units that's existed in any edition of the game.

The Unending wrote:I get an image of Gaunts crushing most dedicated assault troops under their sheer weight of numbers alone.

That doesn't work so well in 5th ed., however. Gaunts either need better CC effectiveness, a morale solution (synapse allowing choice of autopass/fail was what I previously mentioned) or both to grind down the uberunits of 5th.

When in doubt, GW is trying to make money. They're not trying to ruin your list.

Sidstyler wrote:Well, unless you play DA or Chaos.

Or Necrons.....hell, they didn't even need a new codex to do that.

Second ed. Carnifexes -- biomorphed properly -- were one of the toughest units that's existed in any edition of the game.

9 Toughness, 2 Terminator saves, and a 4+ invulnerable, if I recall. It was something like that. Man, I hope they bring that back. Then again, I'm not sure I want to be paying 700 points per Carnifex...

I'm another proponent of a return to horde lists. I really enjoy fielding tons of little crap shock troops that actually do something when they slam into the opposing forces and backing them up with the big nasties. No Retreat absolutely has to get changed or worked around for Gaunts to be of any use. I'm really hoping GW realizes thatand does something about it. I hate having Gaunts be nothing but overpriced Gretchin.

Zathras wrote:

When in doubt, GW is trying to make money. They're not trying to ruin your list.

Sidstyler wrote:Well, unless you play DA or Chaos.

Or Necrons.....hell, they didn't even need a new codex to do that.

Perhaps. But Necrons sure need a new Codex so everybody else knows what the hell they're playing against, and so that the Necron players themselves know how their own army works...

Quick, how many times has everyone had to remind a Necron player that Gauss weapons don't have rending. "Wait, they don't?" is not an acceptable answer.

So true. Or that the monolith can't fire all of it's weapons in the same turn it uses it's portal.

Or that WBB needs a similar model nearby...

Pft, I have to keep reminding people that Necrons don't lose WWB to AP 1 & 2 weapons.

Some new 'news' (nothing too new really).

Heard from a friend, from a friend that works at GW, from a friend that works at GW cooperate etc....

Anyway, this GW exec has physically seen the molds for the Trygon so production is in the works and they expect to have it ready to be released by Christmas. In addition to the release of the Trygon they expect to have a codex accompanying it. So if everything goes according to plan then we will see nids in december.

...IF everything goes according to plan.....

From April, to February, to now December eh? What do you expect us to believe? You realize this isn't that 'other' 40k site, right?

Axyl wrote:So if everything goes according to plan then we will see nids in december.

Not a chance. Games Workshop chooses not to do releases in December. After Space Wolves, the next 40K Codex is in January or February, at the earliest, and I would suggest it highly improbable that they would release a Trygon with the Codex. Like with the Stompa, it would be something that would be done as a separate, Apocalypse release.

The Trygon looks to be complete, as far as anyone can tell from the pictures circulating a few months back. GW doesn't do December releases but I'd expect the Trygon to come out when the Codex does to drive sales.

Elric of Grans wrote:

Axyl wrote:So if everything goes according to plan then we will see nids in december.

Not a chance. Games Workshop chooses not to do releases in December. After Space Wolves, the next 40K Codex is in January or February, at the earliest, and I would suggest it highly improbable that they would release a Trygon with the Codex. Like with the Stompa, it would be something that would be done as a separate, Apocalypse release.

You're assuming the Trygon remains an Apocabeastie.

I wouldn't be surprised if, like the Valk, he gets some normal 40k rules; something in the Land Raider price range, but still with his tunnelling rules (providing the closest thing 'nids will ever get to a transport).

I'd buy that for a dollar!

Necros wrote:I'd buy that for a dollar!

You'll probably be buying it for a lot more than a dollar, Necros.

Railguns wrote:Tyranids will use small elite forces, subterfuge and assassination teams when it's necessary. Infiltration of genestealer broods is a common" tactic. I'd love to see Swarm-Nids that work, but cutting the list down to just swarm Nids would be a disservice to the army, and cut out many players who would rather re-create Alien or Godzilla rather than Starship Troopers.

As a 'Nid player, I'm a big fan of the swarm approach. To me, nothing's more fun than having a Space Marine player sweat out the prospect of taking out the Warriors and Carnifex that are going to be on his doorstep in two turns, or the Hormies who are going to land on him in one. Having been on both sides of that prospect, I say that swarm armies are a lot more fun to play with/against... it just has a better feel to it.

To me, nothing says 'Nids like a hundred angry gribblies racing forward in reckless abandon.

Janthkin wrote:

Elric of Grans wrote:I would suggest it highly improbable that they would release a Trygon with the Codex. Like with the Stompa, it would be something that would be done as a separate, Apocalypse release.

You're assuming the Trygon remains an Apocabeastie.

I wouldn't be surprised if, like the Valk, he gets some normal 40k rules; something in the Land Raider price range, but still with his tunnelling rules (providing the closest thing 'nids will ever get to a transport).

The Trygon is on the small side for a Gargantuan MC. I like the idea of it as a Land Raider-class uber-MC in regular 40k.

But as I'm more of an Apoc player, I'd rather we get Apoc 2 with rules cleanup for scoring and more cool stuff.

SargesSquad wrote:

Railguns wrote:Tyranids will use small elite forces, subterfuge and assassination teams when it's necessary. Infiltration of genestealer broods is a common" tactic. I'd love to see Swarm-Nids that work, but cutting the list down to just swarm Nids would be a disservice to the army, and cut out many players who would rather re-create Alien or Godzilla rather than Starship Troopers.

As a 'Nid player, I'm a big fan of the swarm approach. To me, nothing's more fun than having a Space Marine player sweat out the prospect of taking out the Warriors and Carnifex that are going to be on his doorstep in two turns, or the Hormies who are going to land on him in one. Having been on both sides of that prospect, I say that swarm armies are a lot more fun to play with/against... it just has a better feel to it.

To me, nothing says 'Nids like a hundred angry gribblies racing forward in reckless abandon.

I'm a fan too, really. It's just that there wouldn't be much of a reason for that to be the only approach. The other recent codexes support multiple play styles so I don't see why they would arbitrarily...oh wait, thats right Arby's writing the codex, and it is a GW product. Well, the IG codex still manages to support a couple of approaches beyond the manhorde.

The Codex will support multiple playstyles.

It will however only support one effective playstyle.

Within a week the new 'Nid Power Build will be found, and it can take its place next to Lash/Oblits, MechVet/ValkVet, Fateweaver/PB/Bloodcrusher, Biker Nobz and Vulcan Marines.

And as Arby's writing it it will be full of lots of really strange restrictions that all exist for no apparent reason. How strange? Well you know how you can only have one Winged Tyrant at the moment because... well... just because? Yeah? Things like that. Only one Carnifex can have a Venom Cannon because of... just because. Only one squad of Genestealers can get Outflank because... umm... yeah just because.

Should be AWESOME!

Janthkin wrote:You're assuming the Trygon remains an Apocabeastie.

I wouldn't be surprised if, like the Valk, he gets some normal 40k rules; something in the Land Raider price range, but still with his tunnelling rules (providing the closest thing 'nids will ever get to a transport).

You are right, I did make that assumption --- intentionally, as I prefer to avoid too much speculation. If they were to turn the Trygon as the Tyranid answer to a mech army, I would be all for it. If they do not, I will still buy one purely because the model looks great.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Codex will support multiple playstyles.

It will however only support one effective playstyle.

Within a week the new 'Nid Power Build will be found, and it can take its place next to Lash/Oblits, MechVet/ValkVet, Fateweaver/PB/Bloodcrusher, Biker Nobz and Vulcan Marines.

And as Arby's writing it it will be full of lots of really strange restrictions that all exist for no apparent reason. How strange? Well you know how you can only have one Winged Tyrant at the moment because... well... just because? Yeah? Things like that. Only one Carnifex can have a Venom Cannon because of... just because. Only one squad of Genestealers can get Outflank because... umm... yeah just because.

Should be AWESOME!

Yup. I know. I just want the sinking feeling to go away.

gorgon wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:"Old school" Carnifexes actually had a pretty hardcore long-range shooting attack. They were beasts at range and in HtH. Then again, this was back in the day when a single Genestealer could give today's special characters a run for their money.

It was a pretty good "gun"...roughly equivalent to a battlecannon, IIRC. The thing was that you tended not to fire it much (unless you have the right biomorph, and even then only once, IIRC) because the Carnifex was *fantastic* as a moving screen. Second ed. Carnifexes -- biomorphed properly -- were one of the toughest units that's existed in any edition of the game.

You had to love the regeneration, 4+ save for every wound at the begining of every round. I once saw a carnifex with 28 (that's -18) wounds stand back up. That would make him 299 pts, so your opponent only got 1 pt for wounding him and had to kill him for the other 2. You could also put a warp field on him for 40 pts for a 2d6 save over str of attack to ignore hits, even vortex gernades and wraithcannons that counted as str 6. Good times.

If there is a Tyranid book coming in February, how do you think GW will advance the background via the stories and time lines and misc codex fluff? I figure at least one new named hive fleet, and I'm obviously hoping for at least a skirmish with the Tau in fluff. Mostly because I want to see how the Shadow in the Warp would affect a non-Warp sensitive race.

Wh , yes, I AM a fluff gamer, how could you tell?

chaplaingrabthar wrote:...do you think GW will advance the background...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:...do you think GW will advance the background...

in the grim darkness of the 40k fluff, there is no advancement

I think nids will come in August ...






...of 2010

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The Unending wrote:All in all i'm optimistic about next nid 'dex

That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

A little late on that one.

Flyrants were cut down to 1 only in 4rth. With no CC consolidation and their inability to hide, 5th Edition has cut thier effectiveness. Nidzilla as it currently stands is lacks "IT" factor it once enjoyed. Genestealers with the combined nerfs of weaker rending against vehicles, wound allocation, no hiding, no consolidating into CC, and no auto pinning troops in transports, has resulted in them becoming more or less bolter fodder. Fear genestealers, then buy a meer 35 pt rhino, move 7" a turn, fire weapons out the top hatch, and when/if they blow up your tank in CC, pass your easy leadership test and shoot them to hell. 5th edition practically rewards you for getting your transport blown up in CC. As a tyranid player since 3rd edition, I won't cry too hard when they make thier next codex. They might even make Zoes usefull for a change...but I won't hold my breath. Still, I would prefer to see the remaining 3rd edition codex's reworked before they take the Obama hammer to Nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

General Grogg wrote:That would be interesting to see all the weeping and gnashing over that.GG

The Unending wrote:But seriously I think GW may (notice the word may) have learned their lesson from Chaos and not take the nerf bat to the Tyranids, but I could see them doing that which will make me a very sad person.

CT GAMER wrote:I bet money they pull the rug out from under the Nidzilla players...

Where have you guys been? Didn't you get the 5th Edition memo from GW? The one that said "feth You Nidzilla" in large bold lettering at the top?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gavvin Quinn wrote:Back to 'Nids....

As has been said before, 'Nids are in serious need of some anti-tank firepower outside of VC/BS on 'Fexes.

Plastic Gargoyles would be nice, but only if they make them worthwhile to take.

Biovore/Sporemine KP rules need to be fixed, even if it is a unit that didn't see much play before the KP snafu.

Units overall need to have point costs lowered. It is a shame when the 'Nid horde can be outnumbered by Imperial Guard and/or Orks.

Biovores were awesome in 3rd edition, then GW took them out back of the wood shed. Now they are the slowed whipping boys of GW.

wyomingfox wrote:Where have you guys been? Didn't you get the 5th Edition memo from GW? The one that said "feth You Nidzilla" in large bold lettering at the top?

That's even worse then, because GW doesn't know this. GW will still be thinking that everyone does 'Zilla lists, so will write the new Codex to balance (ie. invalidate) 'Zilla lists, something that's already been busted by 5th Ed. Net result is even weaker MC's for Tyranids and less of them to use as GW tries to balance (ie. overbalances) something that is no longer a problem.

Hmmm...might have been a unconscious subliminal message on their part...kinda like when I burned the BRB and a ghostly Jervis sprung out screaming "Spend More Money".

I mean, everyone who's trying to be competitive does a Nidzilla list because it's the strongest we have at the moment. That doesn't mean it's unbalanced, though. It's just the only way we have a chance of out-muscling other armies. Any IG list, TH/SS Terminators, Vulcan shooting, Ork Nobz, and any number of other things still bash the hell out of Nidzilla without much of a problem.

I guess all I can do is pray that GW gets this codex right, to some extent. I know that's aking a lot, but they've certainly beefed up IG and SM to a pretty absurd level. Maybe we'll be lucky enough to get at least half that boost.

I would add that the main reason you still see Nidzilla is not because it is competitive but due to a lack of choices:

For elites you have Carnifexes (strangle and dakka) and Death Spitter Warriors ...or CC Warriors and Lictors

For HQ you have Dakka Tyrants with Guard and Death Spitter Warriors ...or CC Warriors and the Brood Lord who for some reason, the HM forgott to give fleet to

For Troops you have genestealers ...or you can handicapp yourself with Hormies and Guants

For Heavies you have Carnifexes...and carnifexes...Sorry, Zoes and Biovores forgott to get off the short bus

For Fast Attack...you don't have Fast Attack

The best part is they are all great at killing infantry...yep infantry is toast...so long as your opponent is gracious enough to stay out of those cheap transports. Want to kill tanks? Then you are pretty much forced to "run" ninja fexes and ninja tyrants at the enemies mobile pill boxes...which still blows, especially in DoW. Killed the tanks in CC...good for you...now assume the position and prepare for your "reward".

So you either go Nidzilla and hope for a hard fought draw against tournement grade mech or you stay home and paint. Maybe once word eventually reachs the Hive Fleet that its once feared armies are getting raped by a collective of smurfs, carebears and my little ponies, it will have the common sense to give its MC fleet or tank busting guns.

I would add that the main reason you still see Nidzilla is not because it is competitive but due to a lack of choices

Agreed 100%. I posted something very similar in another thread, I believe. Far too many Tyranid units just plain suck for one reason or another. The big boys and Genestealers are really the only choices that make sense.

I've been saying this for a while, but it's hardly new. Gaunts are essentially worthless as combat units. They give cover saves to genestealers and hold objectives ONLY if you were kind enough to keep a synapse creature with them and out of the fight contributing to the battle. You're practically punished for using them in combat because unless you spend 15 points per Hormagaunt in a 480 pt squad of t3, AS6+ models they will never, ever kill anything, lose combat, and suffer from fearless wounds, while causing any other creatures to either hope against hope that they can pick up the slack or suffer fearless wounds as well. It totally goes against the "drown your enemies in bodies" approach that Tyranids are supposed to espouse. I liked playing horde nids but it's just torture these days.

Edit: I just thought of Necrons, Monoliths, teleporting out of combat, and misdirecting Decievers. I HATE fighting Necrons with Nids. Unless you can fight and wipe out more units than he has Monoliths you may as well just give up and start over.

I know I'm probably making a mistake but I think GW won't completely screw over the Nids, I mean they've done good with Orks, SM, and IG.

I figure that in typical GW pendulum style, gaunts and Lictors will get a boost, while everything else will receive a slight kick in the carapace

Zoanthrope needs a boost , sort of like IG tank squadrons.
1-3 zoan per heavy slot please! (hmm maybe same for biovores as well )

Don't forget Warriors! It's time for Warriors to shine*, so they'll get new rules to make them better**.


*sell more kits than they have been.
**to sell more!

1-3 zoan per heavy slot please! (hmm maybe same for biovores as well )

That's already how it works...

Don't forget Warriors! It's time for Warriors to shine*, so they'll get new rules to make them better**.


*sell more kits than they have been.
**to sell more!

Fine with me! Whatever the motivation, it's about time Warriors got cool again.

Even if Zoeys weren't 1-3, the real issue is that Zoeys aren't truly competitive with Carnifexes. Nor are Biovores.

Re: Warriors, we'll see. They've flirted with being good at times (early 4th edition, when they were classified as Beasts being one of them), but they've never had rules on par with the models. And I've just about given up on GW ever getting Lictors right. They haven't done what they're supposed to do since 2nd edition.

By the way, according to posters on Warpshadow, Phil K. (who isn't the author, as we guessed) confirmed at the German GD that there will be four new units, and one of them will dwarf the Carnifex. The last one seems like an obvious nod to the Trygon. But I'm scratching my head on the others. Four new boxed sets seems like too many...so are they new blisters? Or do they represent parsing of existing units (say separate list entries for CC Carnifexes and HS Gunfexes) ?

...I think the problem with Carnifex vs. Biovore is that by making the Carnifex have shooty options they overshadowed the Biovores main advantage over the other it. I guess if GW wanted to fix the issue, Carnifexes should be the "battle tanks", with biovores the "artillery" at least in making their roles better defined. The Biovore's weapon should be made less like a Griffon mortar and more like a Bassilisk but not to the same extreme.

gorgon wrote:
By the way, according to posters on Warpshadow, Phil K. (who isn't the author, as we guessed) confirmed at the German GD that there will be four new units, and one of them will dwarf the Carnifex. The last one seems like an obvious nod to the Trygon. But I'm scratching my head on the others. Four new boxed sets seems like too many...so are they new blisters? Or do they represent parsing of existing units (say separate list entries for CC Carnifexes and HS Gunfexes) ?

I think the trygon has been pointed at so much that any attempt by GW to say it isn't will be met with the same ire as the Space Hulk debacle.

Four boxed set doesn't necessarily mean new units. I'm guessing Trygon, Gargoyles, with either Ravenors and/or Lictor. Kinda one big "tank" kit, one squad sized kit, one larger model squad kit, one IC kit.

@aka: I agree. Right now, the Carnfiex does everything and too well. I think it'd be nice if GW spread the roles around a bit:
- Warrior = BS4 Heavy ranged fire support
- Carnifex = HtH wrecker
- Biovore = Griffon (large, indirect) barrage
- Zoey = Plasma Cannon / Multi-melta "sniper"

Carnifex should be the dreadnought of the army - give them limited shooting weapons eg no BS or VC.

I don't think carnifex's will be nerfed simple because they cost 45 dollars each and GW is making a ton of money having them be both elites and heavy support.

as for the new units i hope its a primach that would be epic, and they bring back the genestealer hybrids.

i think ravenors are going to be a lot better because of the trygon

Or that. I just mean GW let the carnifex do everything, so everyone only needed to buy carnifexes. I think its fine that it has ranged combat options they just can't be so much a "no brainer". It will be hard for GW to push the Carnifex back in the direction of HtH with the Trygon coming out. I think the carnifex will be the big nerfed unit that people complain about when GW redoes the codex, like stormtroopers were for IG. They will be nerfed indirectly, they won't be nerfed because GW wants them weaker or sell less. They'll be nerfed by virtue of GW giving tyranid players the trygon in such a way that it is overly good for it price.

I think just the introduction of the Trygon will push the list in a more HTH direction. It will be beefier than a carnifex and will likely be a Heavy Support choice. So Nidzilla will become close combat elites and close combat heavy supports. My worry is that in an attempt to make it more appealing they try to make the trygon do more. A shooty trygon would just break things.

I think GW is going to try to inject some rule to promote the use of basic infantry units. Playing around with synapse creatures and making it a bit of a orders system seems very likely.

aka_mythos wrote:I think GW is going to try to inject some rule to promote the use of basic infantry units. Playing around with synapse creatures and making it a bit of a orders system seems very likely.

Orders don't make sense, but Idomitable Will, to automatically pass or fail a Ld test wthin Synapse range would work pretty well...

I just meant order like, in the way that it can help, it doesn't really hurt, but that it isn't this drastic uber rule, but at the same time isn't automatic.

I think the only way GW would have some sort of rule like what you're talking about JohnhwangDD is if their is a noticable downside.

Well, auto-pass means that they'll take No Retreat wounds, while auto-fail means they could get run down. That's penalty enough.

I just meant more like a big LD hit when they are without the synapse creature.

aka_mythos wrote:...I think the problem with Carnifex vs. Biovore is that by making the Carnifex have shooty options they overshadowed the Biovores main advantage over the other it.

If we are talking about Gun Fexes (which were your typical heavies back in 4rth), then not really. 3rd edition carnifexs were actually more shooty in that their Big guns were not Twin Linked. Remember when Carnifexes got 4 venom cannon shots, Peperidge Farms remembers. 4th just made Carnifex's more survivable with the extra cheap wound. Dakkafexes were allocated to the elite slot and didn't even compete with Biovores.

IMO, you saw Heavies being filled only by Carnifexes because they were the only competitive option available. Biovores just got beaten with the stupid bat back in 4rth:

Biovores: Heah, I had 3 independant shots and would hit at least once
Stupid Bat: Now you either hit or miss entirely and even if you do hit at least one barage template is going to displaced
Biovores: Heah, I had large blast templates
Stupid Bat: Now you have small blast templates
Biovores: Heah, I deployed independantly
Stupid Bat: Now your together, the better to get shot at and forced off the table
Biovores: Heah, I had leadership 10
Stupid Bat: Now you have 5 and can't lurk...see that numbnuts, I just denied you the only benefit of your new codex
Stupid Bat: Oh and in 5th I took away hiding and made your mines bleed KP...eat gak and die mofo
Biovores: Nobody loves me anymore

Back in 3rd, Biovores were good and did compete with gunfexes. in 4rth and so far in 5th, Biovores aren't competitive because they suck and make IG mortors look good. They are practically useless and are easily outshined by similar units in other armies

Big LD hit? Non-fearless/synapse 'nids are already the lowest leadership units in the game, tied with Ork Gretchin and IG Conscripts. If you want that to be lower, you might as well make them autofail everything out of synapse... :p

ravenors and trygon is going to be the new cool thing backed up with carnifexs.

I didn't necessarily mean LD getting knocked down, just maybe something like servitors mindlock or the painfully random workings of chaos dreadnoughts after some LD test.

Unless guants get some method of achieving a higher leadership coupled with Stubborn, I just don't see the possibility of a swarm army. As is they just die to fast in CC due to fearless wounds.

You mean...like Instictive Behaviour?

Redemption wrote:You mean...like Instictive Behaviour?

YES!!!

That was *great*.

IB doesn't give "stubborn" or increases to leadership, it gives "fearless". "Fearless" was a boon in CC back in 3rd and 4rth. Now "Fearless" carries a hefty liability, which results in guants imploding in on themselves.

He means something that allows them to take a leadership test when failing CC instead of just automatically taking a bunch of saves and losing even more gaunts. Taking a LD test would allow the gaunts to stay in the fight without losing any more models.

Ah, that was to Mythos' leadership thingy, not the swarmy army stubborness you suggested.

But I think a 'nid swarm army should still have some synapse creatures for control (albeit the smaller ones, like warriors, broodlords & zoanthropes), that's just how 'nids roll.

It would probably work better if they just replaced Fearless with LD 10 stubborn for being in synapse similar to what Wyomingfox suggested.

Thats kinda what I meant but I think it could be better.

gorgon wrote:Even if Zoeys weren't 1-3, the real issue is that Zoeys aren't truly competitive with Carnifexes. Nor are Biovores.

Re: Warriors, we'll see. They've flirted with being good at times (early 4th edition, when they were classified as Beasts being one of them), but they've never had rules on par with the models. And I've just about given up on GW ever getting Lictors right. They haven't done what they're supposed to do since 2nd edition.

By the way, according to posters on Warpshadow, Phil K. (who isn't the author, as we guessed) confirmed at the German GD that there will be four new units, and one of them will dwarf the Carnifex. The last one seems like an obvious nod to the Trygon. But I'm scratching my head on the others. Four new boxed sets seems like too many...so are they new blisters? Or do they represent parsing of existing units (say separate list entries for CC Carnifexes and HS Gunfexes) ?

Perhaps one of them might be an HQ unit similar to the Broodlord.... something that fits into a unit and gives a bonus... maybe something for Hormagaunts/Termagaunts.... something comparable to a Veteran Sergeant in SM, where it would have some sort of Synapse, or just drop the chance of failing a Ld test...

If it is the Trygon (I think we can play the odds), then maybe it'll mark the return of Fast Attack units in a 'Nid players army. I don't remember the last time that I saw gargoyles in a list. Raveners, yes... but next to never for gargoyles.

Its a 50/50 split between Gargoyles and Raveners both will get new models (probably) but only one will get well written rules.

Gargoyles will get new models - they're horrible metal models on flight stands that you will likely need bunches of. Like the Giant Eagles and Terradons and Pegasus Knights, they'll go to plastic.

Yeah, that's the thing. If Gargs get a plastic kit (and I think that's very possible), that's a plastic kit slot not allocated to the four.

Oh, the poster on Warpshadow also said we'll see the return of special characters (OOE, etc.), although it doesn't sound like Phil K. was clear if they are among the four. The post kinda made it sound like they aren't, but I guess we'll have to wait for some more concrete info.

All this talk of the four is getting a little BSG.

At this point, there are only so many kits that GW can convert to plastic:

- Hive Tyrant -- this is a no-brainer, as GW wants all core HQ & Troops as plastic.

- Gargoyles -- this is the other no-brainer, as they are swarmy and numbers.

- Trygon -- this is an awesome new kit with a lot of possilbity, but it's hard to say where it appears in the FOC. Due to size, it's probably best as a Heavy, but heavy is overloaded already, unless the Carnifex moves from Heavy to Elite... The Tunneler DS points towards Fast, but new Gargoyles take the Fast spot. As a spearhead unit, it makes a great Elite. The out-of-the-box possibility would be as "Dedicated Transport" attached to any infantry Brood, forcing the Brood into Reserves, but arriving with the Trygon...


The last choice is among Zoanthrope, Biovore, Ravenors, and Lictor.

Of these, the Zoanthrope has the worst physical balance issues, due to the "tower" design so is a better choice for a plastic model from a playability standpoint. Or just a bigger base...

Lictor looks great as-is, but would be far easier to convert into sneaky if plastic. This could be the "meh, why did they bother?" pick, like the new Daemonettes.

Biovore is a funny-looking model and could use some decent rules, but probably won't get them. It could be the Possessed / Chaos Spawn, with a nice new model, but unimpressive rules.

Ravenors compete with Gargoyles, so are a dark horse pick. They could be a bit bigger, like Warriors, and reared-up like the Red Terror. That'd be neat.

I wonder if they will make HQs have some sort of "brood" benefit, in the same way SM change out Combat Tactics to vary up mundane choices. The increased focus on Special Characters altering the way armies are structured would lend itself to that.

Man, it would be great if they had a Genestealer Magus that let you take IG platoons or Conscripts as Troops.

I think GW should make the Biovore bigger. Its size is a bit of a stay over from when they had to do it in metal. Do it plastic. Make it less large infantry more small vehicle in size. Include piles of spore mines. It'd even be relatively easy for GW to create a variant of some sort and include bits for that. I doubt it would happen, I just think it'd be cool.

Oh yeah I forgot about that tunelling thing of the Trygon. That really pushes it into the Land Raider type role for the army.

IF they do a Trygon, I wonder if it will have the same benefit in DS as does a monlith...doesn't roll on the mishapp table but intead pushes other models out of the way. Kinda like it has now in Apocalypse...unless it hits another guargantuan or war machine.

If its in the standard game its likely to lose gargantuan as it currently appears in Apocalypse, just to keep it simple and requiring only the core rule book.

Simple? Like the change of Valyrie from apoc to 40k?

*shrug* Yep

New plastic boxes will be Trygon, Gargoyles, and 2 different types of gaunt (just a recut of the existing sprues), I reckon. Maybe also a recut of the warriors, especially if they get any new options (I too agree they'll become a hot unit this codex).

Hive Tyrant? - I sure hope so, but even if it came with wings and all gribbly options, would GW sell enough of them? Still, if they can tempt every nid player to buy 1 or 2, I guess that adds up...

Clang wrote:Hive Tyrant? - I sure hope so, but even if it came with wings and all gribbly options, would GW sell enough of them? Still, if they can tempt every nid player to buy 1 or 2, I guess that adds up...

Plastic Hive Tyrant with full options is something that one sculptor (can't remember his name) talked about wanting to do. Considering that Tyrants are the most popular HQ choice for Nid armies and pretty imposing, visually, it doesn't seem so far fetched.

If they change tyranid to be a fast assualting army that can tunnel and attack the same turn that would be awesome.

Vhalyar wrote:

Clang wrote:Hive Tyrant? - I sure hope so, but even if it came with wings and all gribbly options, would GW sell enough of them? Still, if they can tempt every nid player to buy 1 or 2, I guess that adds up...

Plastic Hive Tyrant with full options is something that one sculptor (can't remember his name) talked about wanting to do. Considering that Tyrants are the most popular HQ choice for Nid armies and pretty imposing, visually, it doesn't seem so far fetched.

Juan Diaz.

I think it's important to clarify/reiterate that the Warpshadow poster said there would be four new species that have never appeared in a codex before.

I agree that Gargs, Tyrants, etc. would seem to be likely candidates for plastic kits. But the number of new plastic kits for a given release is always limited to what, around 4-5 or so? So if the Trygon gets a plastic kit, does that mean the other three new units are metal? If so, they'd likely be something you wouldn't field in large numbers.

I wonder if the Malanthrope and/or large Spore Sacks might have made the jump from FW?

Clang wrote:New plastic boxes will be Trygon, Gargoyles, and 2 different types of gaunt (just a recut of the existing sprues), I reckon. Maybe also a recut of the warriors, especially if they get any new options (I too agree they'll become a hot unit this codex).

Hive Tyrant? - I sure hope so, but even if it came with wings and all gribbly options, would GW sell enough of them? Still, if they can tempt every nid player to buy 1 or 2, I guess that adds up...

That'd be nice.... even if it WAS my 4th Tyrant... My metal ones seem to be too damn top-heavy (see 4th edition Tyrant before the rebuild), and I seem to be spending more and more time trying to repair them after they take a header.
It'd be nice if GW would release wing sets for 'Nids that weren't from FW... maybe in like a Bitz pack or something... having half your Warriors with wings without dropping the cost of the models all over again for wings would be pretty cool.

gorgon wrote:I think it's important to clarify/reiterate that the Warpshadow poster said there would be four new species that have never appeared in a codex before.

I agree that Gargs, Tyrants, etc. would seem to be likely candidates for plastic kits. But the number of new plastic kits for a given release is always limited to what, around 4-5 or so? So if the Trygon gets a plastic kit, does that mean the other three new units are metal? If so, they'd likely be something you wouldn't field in large numbers.

We are probably looking at a minimum of two waves here. Using IG as an example we had a wave one with...

WAVE 1

2 repackaged troops kits
2 all new (2 sprue) HQ kits
1 all new small vehicle kit
1 all new large vehicle kit
1 new metal blister (elite unit)
1 new metal blister (character)
1 new metal blister (character)
1 new metal blister (advisors)

WAVE 2

1 all new regular sized vehicle
1 all new regular sized vehicle
1 new metal blister (character)
1 new metal blister (character)

So thats 2 repackaged infantry, 6 metal blisters, 2 new infantry boxes, and 4 vehicle kits (2 regular sized one large and one small)

gaunts and hormagaunts (2 repackaged)
biovore unit (new infantry box)
trygon (large vehicle kit)
gargoyles (new infantry box)
raveners (vehicle sized kit)
hive tyrant (vehicle sized kit)

This leaves a vehicle sized kit and 6 metal blisters for special characters, new units, or resculpts of things like lictors and zoanthropes.

If they broke the waves similar to IG, then they'd lead off with their big offering... the trygon, bring out the infantry repackaging, and probably hit us with the hive tyrant as well. They'd have room in the release for one more plastic kit, and about half of any SC blisters or new unit blisters. Then in 3-6 months they could hit us with the rest. Just a couple more plastic kits and a smattering of metal.

Do you think they'd redo the Tyrant, Biovore, Raveners and Lictor?

Keep in mind that these guys have been redesigned for each and every Codex release - there have been three Tyranid Codices, and there are three Tyrant models, three Biovore models, two Ravener (didn't exist in 2nd Ed) and 3 Lictor models. Ditto for 'Fexes actually.

The most recent redesigns were Jes unifying the range again and fixing the mistakes of the previous range, like the smiling Carnifex, the big-jawed Raveners, the atrocious Lictor, the Gorilla Biovore and the Alien Queen Hive Tyrant.

I just can't see them redoing any of those.

Recut Gaunts (new staple of 'Nid armies)
Recut Warriors (awesome new rules)
Plastic Gargoyles (bad rules - every Codex has one)
Trygon (the 'new' Carnifex - can probably take it in every FoC slot)

And then I don't know. Special Characters... yay. Jervishammer strikes again, so even 'Nids get named characters.

I don't see the Carnifex or Tyrant being redone, unless the Tyrant is switched over to plastic...

I think H.B's got it right, with Gaunts being a big ingredient in the new armies. I don't know if the Warriors are going to be recut, 'cause I think they look decent at this point in time. I don't know if you'll be able to put the Trygon anywhere - it'll just be fighting with the Carnifex for FOC spots - but maybe having the option of Fast Attack or Elites...

I hate Special Characters for 'Nids. The idea is that it's a horde of creatures... not a couple with extra fluff.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

And then I don't know. Special Characters... yay. Jervishammer strikes again, so even 'Nids get named characters.

Yeah, they've never had those before!!*

Blame Jervis!! Raaaaargh!!




*(except in 3rd ed...)

Special Characters on Nids not even maybe. Its supposed to be a horde of unthinking animalistic creatures not anthropomorphic bugs.

Hmm so trygon may be in the codex. It sorta fits with what went on with the IG codex. The downgrading of apocalypse units to codex units may be becoming a common theme.

Ole red eye was a special character for Bugs in the past wasnt it?

Indeed it was, as was The Red Terror!

Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, they've never had those before!!*

Blame Jervis!! Raaaaargh!!

I know they existed. Don't be obtuse.

Special Characters for 'Nids was a dumb idea in 3rd, and it's a dumb idea now.

I agree. I know it's easy to blame Jervis for everything but c'mon, this is something that Nids had 10 years ago.

There were a lot of 3rd ed models that I actually preferred to what nids have now.
3rd ed Raveners looked more vicious despite the oversized jaw. Their claws may have been a bit large, but now Raveners look squishy, with stubby little claws. 'Nids for kids' is what they make me think of.
I liked the alien queen Hive Tyrant because it looked very much like the rest of the army. 3rd ed did a great job giving nids a uniform appearance. Which is the way such an army should appear imho.
I also preferred the 3rd ed lictor because it's big mantis claws were actually claws! Not those harmless looking antenna-things they have now...

I hope Nids get the right tweaks, but GW never seems to quite get it right...

With any luck they will do away with nidzilla
Just too boring


things i hope for if they get a change:

Spikerifles and strangler webs added back into the dex
Re-do the bonesword, its rules are gak.
Give the biovores back some hitting power.
Drop fex limit, 6 is just annoying.
Add a new HQ unit along the lines of a broodlord.
Make gaunts the mainstay units in the army (lets face it, they need to be)
Make gargoyles somewhat more interesting, they are too plain.
Warriors need to be made better, for a stand-in HQ unit they are terrible at the moment.



Now, on the lines of decent models:

I want the old old tyrant back
Same edition lictor back would also be nice.

Fex wise - current one seems fine, allthough i do like mr chuckles, the previous fex model.


Special characters:

Red terror - Just make him a new breed of ravenor, just with higher stats, points and a 1 per army cap limit.

Old one eye - somewhat pointless? we can make him using current rules, only better.

Ozymandias wrote:I agree. I know it's easy to blame Jervis for everything but c'mon, this is something that Nids had 10 years ago.

Back when Jervis was active in 3rd Ed. He was around during those days, and only dropped off during the second round of 3rd Ed Codices and then most of 4th Ed.

He returns and BANG, Dark Angel Codex, mandatory non-special Special Characters. Then Orks, filled with new Special Characters. Then Daemons with more Special Characters. Marines with Vulkan, then Guard with Creed and Sly and so on.

He's the driving force behind this, so if 'Nids get mandatory FoC altering non-special Special Characters, it will because of his design ethos rubbing off on the rest of the team. I hate that so many power builds rely on Special Characters. We made fun of the fact that Eldrad shows up everywhere, but it's true.

I liked to Tyranid special characters to a degree. They illustrated how a wayward Tyranid creature left behind on some long lost world or separated from its fleet can become a beast of legend to the cultures that encounter it who don't know any better. I know that wasn't entirely the case with Old One Eye and the Red Terror, but it opened up the possibility that separated creatures were still Tyranids, and still hyper evolved like Tyranids, so that were they ever reclaimed the super nid that had to become so powerful to survive alone benefitted the race as a whole.

I like the idea of what you guys are calling Special Characters being in the 'nids book. I don't believe they will be Special Characters per se but rather Hive fleet signatures.

Something to help differentiate between the fleets(And to help sell more models).Each Hive fleet will have its own bio-morph specialty due to the enemies they have faced. Think of this as a tyranid version of craftworlds, only the special character model just represents a non-standard force organizations from different evolutionary strains.

I know that I'm in the minority with this so I'll just sit back and listen now.

I think there should be a 'Tyranid Monstrosity' section that is essentially there to represent the ultra-specific mutations and genuses that the Hive Mind has created for very specific purposes. In other words, they are not unique creatures, but instead very rare creatures that only show up when the Hive Mind needs them.

The Red Terror is a good example of that - it was somethign the Hive Mind evolved out of necessity. So the Red Terror chould show up anywhere as it's genetic 'blueprint' (so to speak) has been 'saved' by the Hive Mind, and should it encounter any more similar situations, it can always 'load it up' and make a few more.

During the Revisited Project I started writing such a section, including creatures such as the Icharian Spectre (hyper-evolved Lictor used to stalk the Hives of Ichar IV at the start of Kraken's invasion) and the Thandros Slayer (stupidly-powerful psychic construct made to compat the power of the Telepathica Matrix in Thandros during Hive Fleet Behemoth).

I just wish that gaunts can be played like the fluff uses them..fodder. They should be worth no Kill points, have WON built in, and only genestealers and Synapse creatures should be able to hold objectives...

Of course, that would be hard army to balance, but it would play very differently than any other army. Ahh, to dream..

AdeptSister wrote:I just wish that gaunts can be played like the fluff uses them..fodder. They should be worth no Kill points, have WON built in, and only genestealers and Synapse creatures should be able to hold objectives...

That's actually a pretty cool idea. I really like that.

*appropriates*

Hang on, is the Death Leaper gone and done with? I know GW made a big fuss of this one during Medusa 5, but is Lictor variant still around or is it just a fancy model with nothing extra now?

Fancy model

BrookM wrote:Hang on, is the Death Leaper gone and done with? I know GW made a big fuss of this one during Medusa 5, but is Lictor variant still around or is it just a fancy model with nothing extra now?

it is just a fancy model now.

I'm hoping we can get some scoring S5 I5 rending rippers for 5 points per base.......

focusedfire wrote:I like the idea of what you guys are calling Special Characters being in the 'nids book. I don't believe they will be Special Characters per se but rather Hive fleet signatures.

Something to help differentiate between the fleets(And to help sell more models).Each Hive fleet will have its own bio-morph specialty due to the enemies they have faced. Think of this as a tyranid version of craftworlds, only the special character model just represents a non-standard force organizations from different evolutionary strains.

I know that I'm in the minority with this so I'll just sit back and listen now.

Actually a good idea... assuming that you'd be able to make the different Hive Fleets out of the same box set... I doubt that making four (is it five now?) different Hive Fleet boxes would sell well, but if you could just add in the req'd biomorphs, I'm sure people would be pounding back boxes of Gaunts.

I thought it was 3; Kraken, Behemoth and Leviathan. The new one is rumoured to be Hydra, like in planetstrike(the one that invaded Cadia in WD)

AdeptSister wrote:I just wish that gaunts can be played like the fluff uses them..fodder. They should be worth no Kill points, have WON built in, and only genestealers and Synapse creatures should be able to hold objectives...

Of course, that would be hard army to balance, but it would play very differently than any other army. Ahh, to dream..

Absolutely. I really, really hope they make this idea happen. If they want to encourage people to use Warriors, this would certainly be a great way to do so.

Bloodthirster wrote:I thought it was 3; Kraken, Behemoth and Leviathan. The new one is rumoured to be Hydra, like in planetstrike(the one that invaded Cadia in WD)

Those are the most popular/largest hive fleets written about. If you read the codex and maybe the rule book it talks about other hive fleets have not been document or that just small. Tiamet - Ouroboris - Colossus

I wouldn't want anything other than Gaunts to be thought of cannon fodder. I'm possibly the only one who feels this way, but I feel like Tyranids lost something in their 3rd edition reimagining, when they became a grinding, steamroller army instead of one that hits fast and hard.

Way back in the early '90s, I got a sneak preview of the unreleased Codex: Tyranids while attending Games Day Baltimore (this is the kind of thing the studio staff used to do if you asked nicely). Anyway, I remember paging through the draft and being blown away at the scary h2h potential of the army. Lictors and Hive Tyrants...off the charts. Genestealers...individually a match for most mid-level characters. Even Hormagaunts were pound-for-pound better than SM. Then you had high-flying Gargoyles dropping down and delivering flame template death, nigh unkillable Carnifexes serving as moving walls, etc.

The 2nd edition army was flawed for other reasons. But somehow a lot of that "oomph" and scare factor has been lost. I'd welcome big, grinding Tyranid hordes becoming viable again, but I feel like there should be room for more medium-sized armies built around harder, faster hitters. I suppose part of the reason we haven't seen viable builds is because they really haven't gotten medium bugs right, which is what said medium-sized armies would likely be based around.

So this old-timer's really hoping for a codex that allows not just megahorde and Nidzilla, but something in between also.

Alright, rant off. For what it's worth, someone in the aforementioned Warpshadow thread stated that Phil K. said Tyranids would be evolving to have more viable antitank in the new codex. Which has me optimistic.

Which got me thinking. For those of you nervous about Robin Cruddace being the author, perhaps you can take solace in this. Wouldn't the author of the IG codex -- and all its tanks and mech builds -- know better than anyone the importance of proper antitank in the current edition?

I really liked the way the new IG codex came out, so I'm more than happy the same guy is doing tyranids. I just hope I can get all my new guard stuff done in time to jump back to nids in February

gorgon wrote:So this old-timer's really hoping for a codex that allows not just megahorde and Nidzilla, but something in between also.

I think you'll get that, for semi-competitive play. But for competitive play, only horde will be viable.

Following my philosofy of "Images say more then a thousand words"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/Moonsinger/WOLF.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/Moonsinger/Untitled-1copy-2.jpg

Now to the regular whine of "Dark Eldar... allmost 11 years now man". And "GW is favourising Space Marines!!!". But I digress, I guess we'll see a streamlined version of the nid codex and fixing it, but I would rather see DE first, hell I would like to see them before anything =/ but it feels like that not gonna happen, *looks at his 3k old DE army* they need some new souls(RULES) to harvest.
I wouldn't mind Nids though, if they bring something new would be pretty nice, even though the army got lots of diferent build to try out, I somehow think they should have waited. But profit is profit and Nids propobly sell more then Dark Eldar. More effective anti-tank is always good for Nids.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

gorgon wrote:So this old-timer's really hoping for a codex that allows not just megahorde and Nidzilla, but something in between also.

I think you'll get that, for semi-competitive play. But for competitive play, only horde will be viable.

Prolly right. Kinda like IG and their builds.

Ah well...whatever we get, I'm gonna MAKE it work. Tyranids have been through plenty of evolutions before. Second edition armies looked different than 3rd ed. rulebook armies, which looked different from 3rd edition codex armies, which looked different than 3rd edition armies under 4th edition rules, which looked different than 4th edition codex armies. At some times they were the ultimate screening army, at other times they were the only army that couldn't screen, etc.

Us old-timers adapt, appropriately enough.

I miss the days when I could stack up Gaunts in front of Stealers in front of Warriors in front of the MC's so that the Gaunts were the only available targets. That was some seriously broken stuff, and I loved it.

I really am missing the super-fast horde of 2nd edition and 3rd edition code time, though. Those were the days. I have very high hopes for this codex.

The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

P.S. @Thorheim. I'd love to see DE before Nids too, but I've heard nothing of DE news from GD Germany. I can't believe the subject wasn't raised. There had to be some word on their status...

they will never, ever design a codex for competitive play. They don't even think about this build or that build when they design it. Codexes are designed to sell whatever new models are made. Which is why Nidzilla happened at all, they wanted to sell more of the new plastic fexes so they made them elite choices and let you take 6 in a list and they made them the best unit in the book.

If they make new guants and warriors, that will become the new and best army you can have. If they make plastic biovores you will see them suddenly shooting only 1 kind of spore mine and it will be a str5 ap2 large blast that ignores cover so everyone will buy them. A new plastic hive tyrant will have a special power where you roll a d6 every turn and if you roll a 6 you automatically win the game and get to keep one of your opponent's minis.

If your only interest is in competitive playing, then just buy 2-3 boxes of whatever is new, and your army will crush everything This goes for every army, not just nids

Archonate wrote:The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

This is always an annoying position. The fluff supports the hive fleet evolving whatever the hell it needs to get it done, and in an environment overloaded with Land Raiders, the hive fleet's resources are better spend on Carnifexes than 'gaunts.

Please don't try and shackle other players with your understanding of what is in the spirit of the army, most especially for tyranids - there are literally no limitations on a hive fleet, as opposed to (say) Space Marines, who only have so many Land Raiders in the entire chapter all of which tend to show up in a single encounter, led personally by the Chapter Master.

Since the IG codex allows players to field more compact veteran/mech armies without painting up 220 infantry models, I expect Nidzilla to stick around as a similar option. Nidzilla was and can still be very good to GW's bottom line.

However, I expect Nidzilla in its current form will become less optimal. They sold a crapload of Carnifexes, etc. to Tyranid newcomers because of the strength of the Nidzilla build. Now they'll want to start pushing more Gaunt and Warrior boxes on those same players. Just seems like the obvious business move.

Janthkin wrote:

Archonate wrote:The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

This is always an annoying position. The fluff supports the hive fleet evolving whatever the hell it needs to get it done, and in an environment overloaded with Land Raiders, the hive fleet's resources are better spend on Carnifexes than 'gaunts.

Please don't try and shackle other players with your understanding of what is in the spirit of the army, most especially for tyranids - there are literally no limitations on a hive fleet, as opposed to (say) Space Marines, who only have so many Land Raiders in the entire chapter all of which tend to show up in a single encounter, led personally by the Chapter Master.

That argument doesn't really hold considering Tyranids evolve to attack entire planets. They don't evolve specifically to fight a little 50-man group of mechanized Space Marines. Otherwise Nid players would be allowed to make each army list after having seen their opponent's army list... Ridiculous.
You can, however, say that the hive mind is sending a large group of monstrous Tyranids to go deal with a tank squadron though.
I never said that Nidzilla is unjustifiable. I'm saying that having only one competitive build is slowed...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

gorgon wrote:So this old-timer's really hoping for a codex that allows not just megahorde and Nidzilla, but something in between also.

I think you'll get that, for semi-competitive play. But for competitive play, only horde will be viable.

Although if the Trygon is added to the codex horde may not be what they're focusing on in the new codex. Instead there may be a nid list that sort of acts like a Marine drop pod list. That is IF the Trygon makes it into the codex and if it has the rules that would support this style of play.

Carnifexes will be more powerful, but less numerous. This will ensure that new players keep buying them, but also means GW can pimp something else (re-cut Gaunts & Warriors) as the 'new hotness'.

And the power builds that are found in the Codices are just accidents. GW never intended Nob Bikers or Vulkan Marines or MechVet/ValkVets to be 'power builds' - they intended to sell models, hence Nidzilla (but never factored in the number crunching that people like Yak did to find the Dakkafex, Gunfex etc.) - so you can expect that all types of play - Zilla, mid-sized (Warriors/Raveners/Genestealers), and swarm will all be playable in the new Codex, just as they are now. But only one of them will be the 'power build', and it will become the default NetDeck for 'Nids with minor variations here and there.

I hope that it won't be full of pointless, stupid errors. Like how a Barbed Strangler costs more on a Carnifex if that Carnifex also has Toxin Sacs, but the profile of the shot fired doesn't change. You pay points for nothing. That, and other silly things that aren't necessarily mistakes but are obviously not well thought out. Twin linking a Venom Cannon on an MC costs you twice as many points as one weapon, AND the other weapon slot. On 35 point Venom Cannons, this is just silly.

Railguns wrote:I hope that it won't be full of pointless, stupid errors.

What's life like being such a huge optimist?

Look on the bright side everyone - it won't be Warwick 'Copypasta-Desasta' Kincaid writing it, so we can rest assured that the Codex will be different, and not just the previous one copied and pasted into that current nonsensical 40K Codex format.

I think he's just playing the odds. After this many codex GW's bound to get lucky.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Recut Gaunts (new staple of 'Nid armies)
Recut Warriors (awesome new rules)
Plastic Gargoyles (bad rules - every Codex has one)
Trygon (the 'new' Carnifex - can probably take it in every FoC slot)

And then I don't know. Special Characters... yay. Jervishammer strikes again, so even 'Nids get named characters.

I think gaunts will be a huge improvement in the new codex. The trend from the ork and IG codex has been to make basic units much cheaper and more effective at their purpose. Now, this could be to make the armies better, or to give people more incentive to buy more models....you can be the judge of that! Considering the sudden shift to vehicles from 4th edition, the gradual increase of models per army over the last few years...seems like a given.

JD21290 wrote:With any luck they will do away with nidzilla
Just too boring

things i hope for if they get a change:

Drop fex limit, 6 is just annoying.

I found this amusing.

Archonate wrote:The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

P.S. @Thorheim. I'd love to see DE before Nids too, but I've heard nothing of DE news from GD Germany. I can't believe the subject wasn't raised. There had to be some word on their status...

I'll just copy/paste what I posted at Warseer on this subject.

How a Tyranid invasion generally goes:
(Step 0: Genestealer Cult/Shock.)
Step 1: Sea of gaunts to exhaust the defenders.
Step 2: Hordes of Carnifexes to tear and destroy everything.
Step 3: Rippers to digest the biomass.

Nidzilla is very much in the spirit of the Tyranids and just as "fluffly" as a mass of gaunts.

I'm looking forward to Tyranids having some all-around CC punch once again, though the option of focusing on ranged attacks shouldn't be killed like some people seem to be wishing.

That may be the case as far as the fluff goes, but the only reason we have Nidzilla is because of the plastic Carnifex. They wanted to sell models, so they increased the amount of that model that you could take.

Like when someone says that the current trend is better basic infantry - well, yes, because you need more of them and you can sell more models. Will anyone be surprised when the most numerous model type in a 'typical' 'Nid army - the Gaunt - becomes indispensable in the next Codex?

I wouldn't be surprised - you really need 2 or 3 boxes of Gaunts to make a sizeable enough unit. At 30-odd bucks a box, making Gaunts more valuable in a 'Nid army would equal big bucks for GW.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That may be the case as far as the fluff goes, but the only reason we have Nidzilla is because of the plastic Carnifex. They wanted to sell models, so they increased the amount of that model that you could take.

Like when someone says that the current trend is better basic infantry - well, yes, because you need more of them and you can sell more models. Will anyone be surprised when the most numerous model type in a 'typical' 'Nid army - the Gaunt - becomes indispensable in the next Codex?

Very true, but in this case I was addressing the fact that a large number of MC is part of the Tyranid fluff.
It's obvious that when GW made the new Carnifex with all those extra little bits, they tooled the rules to accommodate them.
But calling the strategy unfluffly is wrong

Vhalyar wrote:But calling the strategy unfluffly is wrong

Oh I agree - Nidzilla certainly has its place in the fluff - but I think what irked people so much was the fact that it became the only way to play 'Nids. Swarms vanished becase Nidzilla was the only viable way to have a competative force. 'Stealer Shock appeared later, but it's still not your 'classical' swarm army either.

Sadly I don't see this trend going away. The next 'Nid 'Dex will bring Swarms back, but that'll be the only viable list. Nidzilla, assuming its even possible, won't work.

I think that there's nothing wrong with Nidzilla becoming a sub-par list, but I don't want Carnifexes to become weaksauce. I also seriously doubt that swarms will actually be viable, considering there are scary things like Leman Russ Eradicators/Executioners/Battle Tanks and artillery that can blast a swarm to bits before it gets into range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And bring back Commissar Calgar, H'. I can't take you seriously without him.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Railguns wrote:I hope that it won't be full of pointless, stupid errors.

What's life like being such a huge optimist?

Look on the bright side everyone - it won't be Warwick 'Copypasta-Desasta' Kincaid writing it, so we can rest assured that the Codex will be different, and not just the previous one copied and pasted into that current nonsensical 40K Codex format.

Yeah, I know HBMC. I've just gotten to the point where the pessimism is an understood constant and I don't have to state it. I guess that comes off as optimistic sometimes.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that there's nothing wrong with Nidzilla becoming a sub-par list, but I don't want Carnifexes to become weaksauce. I also seriously doubt that swarms will actually be viable, considering there are scary things like Leman Russ Eradicators/Executioners/Battle Tanks and artillery that can blast a swarm to bits before it gets into range.

If swarms can shoot back effectively, close in faster and hit harder once they get there, they definitely have a chance to work.

Although their deployment and army strategies are completely different, Daemons would appear to have the same issues at first glance. Yet they have just enough tools in their arsenal to make it work.

IMO, the solutions are already there if they pay attention. For one, Lictors that can actually kick a$$ in your opponent's backfield would be a big help to the elements making a frontal assault.

gorgon wrote:
If swarms can shoot back effectively, close in faster and hit harder once they get there, they definitely have a chance to work.

I think 2 out of 3 would be enough to make them worth while. Getting all three would just make it too fun.

The Trygons tunnelling ability would be a means to help them close in faster and safetly. Great for the assault oriented force, not much help for one that wants to shoot more.

If swarms can shoot back effectively, close in faster and hit harder once they get there, they definitely have a chance to work.

Agreed. I'm not sure how they'd go about making Gaunts faster, but they're definitely not all that fast now that everything can run. Their shooting is already pretty decent, and their stat line isn't horrible. What they really need is a points reduction (3 points base, probably, assuming they keep all the upgrades the same prices) and a modification to the Fearless rules. That would instantly fix them. The Trygon shuttling them in would be a super sweet bonus.

IMO, the solutions are already there if they pay attention. For one, Lictors that can actually kick a$$ in your opponent's backfield would be a big help to the elements making a frontal assault.

Agreed again. At the very least, Lictors need an extra toughness and no difficult terrain tests on entering play. For their cost, they also probably deserve another wound. In the Tyranid codex ideas thread, someone mentioned allowing Lictors to have a surprise attack kind of thing that basically amounts to a return to 3rd edition CC rules for them only. That is, you can run in, hack apart a guy or two , take attacks form the guys within 2 inches of you, then use Hit and Run to GTFO and do it again next turn. It totally fits the stealth thing they're supposed to have going on, and without a power weapon, it's far from broken.

They need to make the midsize bugs a viable option. Warriors, Raveners, Lictors, Biovores, Zoanthropes.

But I don't know if they can.

If they recut the Gaunts, I hope to God that they redo the heads to make them one piece! That is the nightmare of buidling the little guys.

And would it be a bad thing to put Genestealers on a 40mm base? all those arms flailing around, thye might as well so you don't tangle with the other player's nicely painted models.
It might hurt base to base contact, but considering the size of GS broods, it shouldn't affect the numbers in 2" too much

MilkmanAl wrote:Agreed again. At the very least, Lictors need an extra toughness and no difficult terrain tests on entering play. For their cost, they also probably deserve another wound. In the Tyranid codex ideas thread, someone mentioned allowing Lictors to have a surprise attack kind of thing that basically amounts to a return to 3rd edition CC rules for them only. That is, you can run in, hack apart a guy or two , take attacks form the guys within 2 inches of you, then use Hit and Run to GTFO and do it again next turn. It totally fits the stealth thing they're supposed to have going on, and without a power weapon, it's far from broken.

I was never a fan of the DS into terrain. The fact that you had to DS within 6" to assault the enemy and thus incurr a good chance of misshaps because said enemy was hogging terrain, made them even more fragile. Now in 5th, they might even take a wound by DS. In my oppinion, lictors should have either gotten the ability similar to a Calidus Assassin, place it anywhere on the board and act normally. Or ignored the penalty for deepstriking within 1" of the enemy. Plus even when you were lucky and got off an assault, they usually didn't do a whole lot.

I'd like to see 2 worthwhile lists come out of the new book. first being a genestealer-heavy list, like a genestealer cult without people.

2nd would be a gaunt swarm list. Gaunts come with outnumber, but are still a couple pts cheaper than now. If the trygon ends up being added it would be nice if after it bursts out of the ground it leaves a crater (and comes with a cool crater bit to represent it), and gaunts with without number can use said crater to enter the board from instead of it being the table edge.

synapse creatures should also be able to sacrifice d3 or d6 gaunts in synapse range to kill them off, so that if someone decides to be "smart" and leave just 1 gaunt standing and avoid it so the unit can't come back, you can kill it off yourself.

And gaunts should come with special movement trays so that your movement phase doesn't take 12 hours.

wyomingfox wrote:I was never a fan of the DS into terrain. The fact that you had to DS within 6" to assault the enemy and thus incurr a good chance of misshaps because said enemy was hogging terrain, made them even more fragile. Now in 5th, they might even take a wound by DS. In my oppinion, lictors should have either gotten the ability similar to a Calidus Assassin, place it anywhere on the board and act normally. Or ignored the penalty for deepstriking within 1" of the enemy. Plus even when you were lucky and got off an assault, they usually didn't do a whole lot.

Actually I think Lictors should get the same deployment rules as the Dark Eldar Special Character, The Decapitator. Extremely fitting for a unit like the Lictor:

"Decapitator is a supreme master at infiltrating an enemy army. Do not deploy him using the normal rules, even in scenarios that don't normally allow infiltration to be used. Instead write down where on the table Decapitator is hiding (this must be outside both sides' deployment zones). You may reveal his location at any time by simply showing your opponent Decapitator's hidden set-up instructions. You must, however, reveal his location on your third turn if you have not done so already."

I think its time to get some real updates from some red shirts. all the speculation is getting me very excited.

Necros wrote:
If your only interest is in competitive playing, then just buy 2-3 boxes of whatever is new, and your army will crush everything This goes for every army, not just nids

I think Chaos Possessed and Spawn would like to have a word with you.

...Sometimes it skips a generation.

With cruddance at the helm, I expect they will reduce the cost of gaunts and warriors and bundle some nifty ability to make swarm more viable. They won't really fix the real issues with gaunt viability though, so peoiple will ignore or take min gaunts as now. (aka much like CSS and vets are great but infantry platoons are kinda meh even with the boosts and point decreases).

And carnifexes will likely still be good, but will compete with the trygon for slot (which will be amazing) and biovores (which will also be goodlike IG artillery) so will not be taken as much. I suspect carnifexes will get a boost in some way, but will become more expensive in the process to balance them (eg like most of the non-grunts in the IG codex). They may even give a multi carni per slot option but if they do so the cheapest viable carni will weigh in at 160-180 points.

In the end I think they will attempt to make gaunts and swams viable but in the process will screw it up and just change what is spammed instead of gaunts. I hope I am wrong though.

Actually I think Lictors should get the same deployment rules as the Dark Eldar Special Character, The Decapitator. Extremely fitting for a unit like the Lictor:

Wasn't that pretty much the 3ed lictor rules? I really dislike those kinds of rules to be honest. Lictors should be able to stalk their prey, so when they appear it should be near prey.

Personally if Rambo can pop up anywhere then lictors should be able to also. Then add some sort of test perhaps that would let lictors assault that turn (eg an I test for the lictor or I test or ld test for the unit the lictor wants to assault). Or just allow em to assault as long as they show up in area terrain -- that may justify their current point cost.

I imagine the Biovore to end up more like the Marine Thunderflare, both in general size and flexible modes of fire, with the same sort of use.

The lictor should generally be able to do that, its just important to realize marbo dies easily, a lictor doesn't you give that sort of ability to something that can actually survive and it could quickly become broken.
(I'm imagining those pictures of a small fish about to be eaten by a larger fish and the larger fish about to be eaten by an even larger fish, but with marbo attacking stealers and a lictor popping up behind him.)

winterman wrote:With cruddance at the helm, I expect they will reduce the cost of gaunts and warriors and bundle some nifty ability to make swarm more viable.

And carnifexes will likely still be good, but will compete with the trygon for slot (which will be amazing) and biovores (which will also be goodlike IG artillery) so will not be taken as much.

Ork Boyz dropped to 6 points, and Guardsmen also dropped, so Gaunts will definitely cost fewer points. And they're Troops. So GW will be sure to make money selling Gaunt boxes. That's a given.

Warriors can have the nifty ability of BS4, along with Eternal Warrior. With W2 and the ability to take varied weapons/biomorphs, they'll be awesome Elites, and not need a points cut.

Carnfexes will be "good" like a Wraithlord is "good". Enjoy.

Biovores won't be godlike IG artillery, because IG are an artillery army, whereas Nids are a swarm army.

I actually think a Gaunt points cut isn't a slam dunk. For one thing, I don't think points cost has anything to do with their effectiveness. The morale issue is really the thing, with CC effectiveness being a secondary issue.

What made the best 3rd edition codex armies go was really Scythegaunts with hive nodes supported by synapse fearlessness without a No Retreat rule. There were obviously other factors that we commonplace, like rending mutants, etc. But Scythegaunts really represented your best bang for your buck.

Hive nodes are probably gone for good, and that's fine. But if you give Gaunts a CC boost (again, base WS4 and counting spinefists as 2 CCWs would be an easy, elegant solution) and address morale (again, treating synapse similar to God of War is also an easy solution), I think they'll operate pretty well. They'll grind and tarpit just fine, at least. A points drop would give them a boost if they fixed morale too. But the morale is the thing. And a lower-point Gaunt that's no more effective than before isn't going to push Gaunt boxes.

Of course, it's hard to grind down or tarpit anything if you can't get them out of their transports. But that's a different issue, albeit maybe the overarching issue for the army.

@John: However, Tyranids have been more and less of a swarm army at various times in their history. They've been re-envisioned more than once, and it's not impossible that the new codex will see some important differences from the Chambers and Kelly books.

I also think Biovores could easily get a major boost. It's just that you might not be able to spam them like IG can spam ordnance. Personally, I think that's the kind of design work that's gotten them in trouble in the past. "We'll give them guns but make them ineffective and expensive because we don't think Tyranids should be all about guns," etc. I think/hope they've moved beyond that kind of reasoning. You don't intentionally hamstring units if you want to limit them...you make them a viable option but restrict their use.

It's also possible that we'll see other, less conventional approaches to anti-vehicle, such as weapons/organisms that operate like Bomb Squigs or something. Just kinda seems like that's an approach they might take rather than the straightforward guns and ordnance approach. Anti-vehicle rippers?

I'd forgotten about Genestealer Cult - now that I'd love to see returning, it was so characterful. Wouldn't have to be fancy, just an option where a particular HQ choice (presumably some sort of Magus) would allow Cultists (similar to IG) as a troops choice. But rules for Limousine transports and other Culty units would be cool too, although most could be done with 'counts as', I suppose...

Necros wrote:synapse creatures should also be able to sacrifice d3 or d6 gaunts in synapse range to kill them off, so that if someone decides to be "smart" and leave just 1 gaunt standing and avoid it so the unit can't come back, you can kill it off yourself.

It sounds like a good idea, but I think it would have to come with some restrictions, ie being unable to do it while they're in your opponent's close combat... if you're losing the combat, but pass the Ld check, you could just kill them off and have your shooty gaunts sitting 7" away and just onload - a little unfair. Maybe making it something like only on your turn, not in CC, etc. would make it more viable. I do like the idea though.

Necros wrote:And gaunts should come with special movement trays so that your movement phase doesn't take 12 hours.

Try playing Apocalypse with Tyranids. I don't think I've ever been the first to set up successfully (excluding just putting them all in a heap on the table).

Gaunts need a point reduction, its the easy fix. Likewise Termagants need a point reduction, and need to be toned down alot. I play cc-only nids, the way they SHOULD be played if you ask me. I want cc gaunts for troops, but I don't want to pay that many points per model for rules like leaping etc. All I want is a simple gaunt with scything talons (or maybe even rending claws for a bit more), and the option to upgrade them with leaping, etc. if I so choose.

I played gautns in apocalypse once and only once and never again ever since I've done nidzilla. 7 deep striking fexes will make any marine poo themselves instantly.

gorgon wrote:Gaunt(s) ...The morale issue is really the thing...Of course, it's hard to grind down or tarpit anything if you can't get them out of their transports...the overarching issue for the army.

Way to get to the point