For close combat, the idea of "hiding" a giant Warrior among small Gaunts is kinda silly.

They're not really hiding though. It's the same way a dude with a gigantic fist can 'hide' in unit, or an Ork Nob can 'hide' in a unit. Considering an Ork Nob is on par with a Tyranid Warrior in terms of close combat ability, it seems reasonable enough to me.

It sounds too much like all the other armies though. Too Humanoid, not alien enough. Having a Tyranid Warrior named Sergent Termaclaw wielding his chainsword and bolt pistol barking orders to his squad of misfit gaunts makes Nids look like they're trying to emulate IG. All they need is to stay within Hive Node aoe. The ability to act in unison without commanding officers in their immediate vicinity is one thing that makes them alien.

Except that's what Tyranid Warriors are described as being: less so the hyperbolic description of being just like other leader models, and more like officers mashalling lesser Tyranids.

Ya but it just sounds so generic. "one Termagant can be upgraded to a Warrior for the additional cost of X points. That Warrior may then choose additional wargea... I mean biomorphs."

It's just nice to see armies that can function effectively in ways very different from one another. I personally like that Tyranids are the most alien/different of all the races. I hope they stay that way.

Embedded Warriors taken as 0-3 as a gaunt unit upgrade would be neat, as long as I could still take units of them.

What's so generic about it?

gorgon wrote:Those are the same Warpshadow rumors that I referenced earlier. Although I *think* the original poster (Terrorfex on that site) wasn't sure about the plastic Tyrant. I wonder if that might be a second wave item. The original rumors also didn't specifically mention Biovores, just that antitank would be increased (which could mean almost anything).

You're right... it might be a pts drop in shooty items, or they might boost the CC ability of some things (ie Warriors ) or maybe some ridiculous rules for the Trygon.

Railguns wrote:They already charge $45 for the metal Tyrant, IIRC.

It's $55 CDN, which i think (?) is $45 USD. So you've got it.

Necros wrote:Don't they usually make plastic models cheaper than metal versions when they're released?

When they switched the Carnifex from metal plastic, they BOOSTED the price. I blame their idea that all the extras they're putting in the box set (the 6 heads, all the arms & the biomorphs) meant an increase in price.
I'll bet that the Hive Tyrant will be the same, but I won't be happy about it.

I actually like the idea of warriors mixed in with gaunts as It sorta fits the fluff of the warriors using a sea of gaunts to protect itself.

Nurglitch wrote:What's so generic about it?

The fact that all other armies do it.

Except Necrons.

I'm kind of tired of MCs hiding behind a fence of gaunts though to get a 4+ cover save. Its obnoxious (although I do think my local store was playing it wrong but w/e).

MCs are huge and are supposed to be targeted, theyre giant death machines for feths sake. This said, Warriors, Fexes, and Tyrants should be able to take a fair amount of hits and keep moving. They're all immune to instant death sure, but the lascannon heavy lists still tear them apart without their cover shenanigans.

I would hope that the Warriors come with more survivability base, carnifexes are less prone to be shooty, warriors can be the shooty ones, gaunts become more popular (theyre supposed to swarm, not only be in groups of 10 to fence your Tyrants), and Biovores dont shoot killpoints.

Just because Tyranids aren't "supposed" to be a shooty army (which is a silly restriction in itself considering that they are supposed to be the most adaptable race to ever hit the galaxy) doesn't mean that their shooting has to suck. Making their guns suck even more wouldn't make them any better at close combat, even though I'm sure thats GW's reasoning. Make their shooting effective for the points you spend rather than allowing you to take 4 venom cannons and then make them all only capable of glancing. Hell, 4 venom cannons is pathetic compared to the "average" AT some armies bring. On the other hand, making Carnifexes more effective in close combat (WHY DO I HAVE TO UPGRADE IT TO SWING BEFORE POWERFISTS!?!) won't mean a thing if they spend 4+ turns waddling after tanks.

Mechhammer 40k puts Tyranids in a bad position of making our only anti-tank that we can rely on to kill what it reaches, Monstrous Creatures, have to charge the transports in front of them, wreck them, then get melta;d to death by the squad inside. I would absolutely hate to fight Mechvet guard right now.

Railguns wrote:On the other hand, making Carnifexes more effective in close combat (WHY DO I HAVE TO UPGRADE IT TO SWING BEFORE POWERFISTS!?!) won't mean a thing if they spend 4+ turns waddling after tanks.

I'm just singling out this part of your post for its delicious image of a Carnifex waddling after tanks. Waddle, waddle, waddle. Quack.

Railguns wrote:Just because Tyranids aren't "supposed" to be a shooty army (which is a silly restriction in itself considering that they are supposed to be the most adaptable race to ever hit the galaxy) doesn't mean that their shooting has to suck. Making their guns suck even more wouldn't make them any better at close combat, even though I'm sure thats GW's reasoning.

I don't think there's any question that Andy C. (for all the cool ideas he had re: Tyranids) intentionally overpriced a lot of the guns in the 3rd edition codex. And as I've said before, a number of the problems in the 4th edition book occurred when Phil K. left things more or less as is from the previous edition. He probably didn't want to undo the old master's work, but there were eggs in there that needed to be broken. Such as the "double taxation" of many of the Tyranid guns.

Anyway, back on topic. Like I said before, they should make Tyranid antitank shooting effective, but structure it so it can't be spammed to a ridiculous degree.

Y'know, they'd have a lot fewer design problems across the board if they could just stick to that. Make everything effective, but limit the over-the-top spamming.

Nurglitch wrote:Except Necrons.

Tau.

Tau.

They pretty much follow the model. Most squads have a model that can be upgraded to be the "boss." Fire Warriors, Kroot, all the Suits, etc.

The Tyrant's model is $49.50. If GW seriously believes they can raise that price they're crazy.

Nurglitch wrote:So has anyone explored the idea of mixed swarms? Like being able to include Tyranid Warriors in Termagant swarms, or having something like the Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon rule where certain broods could mob up into a swarm?

Yeah. First version of a homebrew Codex had a unit called "The Swarm".

It started as 3 Termagants, and then for every 3 Termagants you could take 1 Hormagaunt. And for every 3 Hormagaunts you could take one Genestealer. And then for every 3 Genestealers you could take 1 Warrior, and there was no maximum size for the unit.

Never did get a chance to try it out.

Nurglitch wrote:Except Necrons.

And Demons... I think? (If anyone deigns to stoop to acknowledging them.)

I'm not saying that Tyranid Warriors leading squads is a game breaker, I'm just saying that I like how they lead squads by being in proximity. I personally believe that boosting gaunt HtH ability shouldn't rest on giving them a squad leader. But maybe give them a melee bonus of some sort for being under Hive Mind influence...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:So has anyone explored the idea of mixed swarms? Like being able to include Tyranid Warriors in Termagant swarms, or having something like the Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon rule where certain broods could mob up into a swarm?

Yeah. First version of a homebrew Codex had a unit called "The Swarm".

It started as 3 Termagants, and then for every 3 Termagants you could take 1 Hormagaunt. And for every 3 Hormagaunts you could take one Genestealer. And then for every 3 Genestealers you could take 1 Warrior, and there was no maximum size for the unit.

Never did get a chance to try it out.

Sounds like something that would be GREAT for Apocalypse games. 5 Warriors would mean you've got 180 Gaunts in front...
I'm really kind of hoping that they bring that back.... or make a datasheet or something for it for Apocalypse.

I think warriors available as a troop option would be nice. Like for every 2 units of gaunts, you can take one unit of warriors as troops that is outside of the FOC. Sorta like a platon command squad. Would also give tyranids a much needed effective scoring unit that isn't neccesarily close combat oriented.

Just giving Warriors a 4+ save as standard would go a long way to ensuring they live past the first couple of turns. I know you can do it now for only 4pts, but you've still got to model the damn biomorph and you only get 2 poxy "shoulder pads" per box... and they are of a different design to each other

winterman wrote:I think warriors available as a troop option would be nice. Like for every 2 units of gaunts, you can take one unit of warriors as troops that is outside of the FOC.

Warriors are a natural Elite unit that serve an expanded HQ-type role via Synapse, so I can't see them as Troops.

Also, the conditional bit of tying to other units isn't a 5E type construct. In 5E, there are no 0-1 restrictions aside from Special Characters, and there aren't external unit links. 5E takes a KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) approach to army lists.

Having a base Sv4+ on Warriors would make sense, and I agree with that.

^^ Swarm sounds like a cool rule. No one cares about Warriors, anyway.

I love Warriors. It's a great kit, as long as you can get around the fact that it doesn't give you enough rending claws or biomorph options.

It'd be nice if you could get more Warriors per box though.

Still, I like the models. A little more variety wouldn't go amiss either. They're easy enough to modify. Mind you, I've modified mine to have the guns on their upper set of limbs, and scything claws in the middle set of limbs, no crests, and a horizontal posture to match my Termagants, Carnifexes, and Tyrant. Plus stuff with their tails to break up the same-ness. So I'm not exactly your standard Tyranid fan, YMMV.

I'm now more worried about the concept of 4 new species. We don't need new species - we need the current species to stop sucking. Give us a Biovore model that doesn't look like ass. Give us a plastic Gargoyle kit.

Don't give us new species.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm now more worried about the concept of 4 new species. We don't need new species - we need the current species to stop sucking. Give us a Biovore model that doesn't look like ass. Give us a plastic Gargoyle kit.

Don't give us new species.

I don't see why they can't do both. To be honest a new anti-tank species would be a great help to the Tyranids right now.

To be honest a new anti-tank species would be a great help to the Tyranids right now.

This is where they will make the monies...

I really didn't want to have to buy new models for my nids, I just got done with a competitive 2.5k army, and now I'll have to shell out more bucks to keep it that way. Gooooooooo Economics!!!

The Unending wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm now more worried about the concept of 4 new species. We don't need new species - we need the current species to stop sucking. Give us a Biovore model that doesn't look like ass. Give us a plastic Gargoyle kit.

Don't give us new species.

I don't see why they can't do both. To be honest a new anti-tank species would be a great help to the Tyranids right now.

My worry with new species is that they're going to make Tyranids more generic. As GW has redone these races they've been giving every race what they're lacking, but what they lack has to do with the character and play style of the army. While Tyranids might want more anti-tank components, do "tyranids" as a fictional entity need them or are hurt by it. If you give them anti-tank units this time, the next time around will they they get some 3+ save troops carrying S4 AP5 rapid fire weapons? Cause in GW eye everyone need those.

New codex = new units. That's how it goes!
I'm really interested to see how they'll handle the nids.

The Unending wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm now more worried about the concept of 4 new species. We don't need new species - we need the current species to stop sucking. Give us a Biovore model that doesn't look like ass. Give us a plastic Gargoyle kit.

Don't give us new species.

I don't see why they can't do both. To be honest a new anti-tank species would be a great help to the Tyranids right now.

How about just new anti-tank weaponry for the species that we have? They better not skirt around the crappy units by inventing new creatures...

I think it's pretty cool that we're getting new units. Besides the Ravener and Tyrant Guard, we haven't gotten anything new in 13 years and nothing new at all since the 3rd ed codex. I welcome the change. Even if they're just new unit choices and don't really fill in any voids, it'll still be cool to have more options. I'm hoping and praying for a versatile list like IG got. I desperately want to have lots of viable ways to configure my army. That would make me a very happy man.

MilkmanAl wrote:I think it's pretty cool that we're getting new units. Besides the Ravener and Tyrant Guard, we haven't gotten anything new in 13 years and nothing new at all since the 3rd ed codex.

Remember, Robin Crudace is writing the Nid Codex, so when GW says Nids will have 4 new entries, I suspect they mean something like this:
- Spinegaunts (replacing Termagant option)
- Dakkafex (replacing Carnifex option, like Armored Sentinel)
- Screamer-Killer (replacing Carnifex option)
- Trygon (NEW!!!)

Enjoy!

To be fair, the Imperial Guard Codex got PBS, Penal Legion, Vendettas, 2 new Hellhound Varients, Armored Sentinels, and 2 new Russ variants. That is a long list of things that has not existed before that the guard got.

Why all the hate on Robin Crudace, I am not a fantasy guy, but his last 40k codex was pretty good. For a GW army book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:I think it's pretty cool that we're getting new units. Besides the Ravener and Tyrant Guard, we haven't gotten anything new in 13 years and nothing new at all since the 3rd ed codex.

Remember, Robin Crudace is writing the Nid Codex, so when GW says Nids will have 4 new entries, I suspect they mean something like this:
- Spinegaunts (replacing Termagant option)
- Dakkafex (replacing Carnifex option, like Armored Sentinel)
- Screamer-Killer (replacing Carnifex option)
- Trygon (NEW!!!)

Enjoy!

So true. IG did get a load of genuinely new stuff, though. I'm hoping that's how it goes for us! If not, I'd be happy with a 14/14/14, T10, 4 wound (yes, toughness AND armor), carries up to 48 models of any size and any number of units, Deep Strike on the first turn, assault off Deep Strike Trygon for around 200 points. Given how the Valk/Vendetta models turned out, that doesn't seem to be asking too much, right?

So IOW, you want a permission-only Apocalypse Datasheet that only only faces off against S-D weaponry? Sure, go for it. Just don't expect it in a normal Codex.

Archonate wrote:How about just new anti-tank weaponry for the species that we have? They better not skirt around the crappy units by inventing new creatures...

You don't even need that. You just remove "Can only Glance" from the VC, and your problems are solved.

Of course, 'Fexes will be BS2 in the new Codex, lose a wound, and have no options for Initiative upgrades.

I think that the 'nids codex does need a revamp to remain competitive and add variety. But codex creep aside, GW has shown that their idea of a good anti-tank unit is screamers of tzeentch... basicly expensive models with no special abilities other than meltabombs.

I see a similiar 'garbage' unit being added to the 'nids in the near future.

As for making 'nids unique, there are lots of things. For example, one fan idea I came across was that extended carapace lets you take your armor save versus any attacks with an AP up to 1 better than your armor. Thus, a genestealer with extended carapace can take his 5+ save versus an ap4 heavy bolter, but not an ap3 vengance round, and a hive tyrant could take their 3+ save versus an ap2 las cannon but not an ap1 meltagun.

Its a different mechanic, very alien to the way regular armor works, and represents the difficulty of cutting through so much of the bulky plates the tyranids are constantly growing and sheading. On the other hand, a 5+ save versus a heavy bolter is in no way game breaking, and a 3+ save versus a las cannon is in line with the 2+ 3++ THSS termie power level, plus it makes up for the pretty much complete loss of cover saves that 'nid MCs get.

As for shooting, the VC could be changed to -1 to the damage chart instead of only glancing for a -2--like it was an ap-- weapon. This also makes venom cannons work like ap-- weapons, which is what they did in 4th and 3rd ed. Thus, a glance with a VC or an ap-- weapon makes you roll with a -3, while a pen with either weapon lets you roll with a -1. Simple and still fluffy.

My (pipe) dreaming aside, I fully expect that whatever the new codex brings, I am gonna be buying more models in order to be competitive--trygons for one. This is not a bad thing, though, as my current nids have been shelved for a year already due to lack of interest thanks to 5th ed.

Why even give it some fancy rule? Just make it a regular gun. It fires shardes of corrosive poison at the speed of sound - in 2nd Ed it was a barrage weapon that slaughtered just about anything, and in the original 3rd Ed Codex it's fluff even said that it was good at penetrating vehicles - yet the rules contradicted that in the very next paragraph.

You only need to remove 'Glancing Only' from the VC, and all its problems go away. No need for more rules or arbitrary restrictions on what it can roll.

I'd like to see different HQ choices affect what sort of swarm you are fielding, to unify lists a bit more.

For example, you take a Flyrant, and you can take a unit or two of (hopefully plastic) Gargoyles as troops?

And yeah, just drop the Only Glance from the Venom Cannon.

Hey, forgive my ignorance. I have read the first page of this thread but not the next 12! I just want to add my 2c.
I have a massive Tyranid Army. About 4000 points & just recently I have become rather bored of them. I can still win with them but I just feel other Army's such as SM have such a massive advantage over them. I do love Tyranids. They were my first Army & I love the idea of mindless Aliens charging into battle. My standard list these days generally consists of loads of MC's & loads of GS, just because they kick ass I think. I don't want GS to get nurfed, as I think they got weaker with the new rending rules, but if Gaunts were made slightly more competative, (ie - WoN was part of the wargear) I would probably run them more often.
Overall I would LOVE a new Tyranid codex that was as thick as the SM one. Possibly with Biovores that were worth fielding & this Trygon I keep hearing about that GW are apparently releasing when the new Codex comes out.
If they nurf Dakka Fex's & Flyrants I will sell my entire Army...... That would SUCK!
Cheers.

Klueless wrote:I don't want GS to get nurfed, as I think they got weaker with the new rending rules

There's the problem. GW doesn't know this. They design rules in a vacuum, so no consideration was given to Genestealers when they redid the rending rules. To them, Genestealers are still this ultra-powerful unit from 4th Ed that needs to be balanced. They either don't realise or don't care that global change to Rending made Genestealers worse - they just see a unit that was 'over powered' in 4th, and will attempt to 'balance' them in the new Codex by reducing their abilities and/or raising their cost and/or making them Elites.

Oh god! ELITES! NOOOOOOOOOO!
GS are the age old troop choice for Tyranids surely?
Even back when i bought my first Space Hulk GS were in the box. No mention of Gaunts.....
I guess they are feared on the Battlefield but they aren't any better than the latest additions to the SM Assault Terminators. God they are hard to beat these days.
Talk about balance?
They are one sided to the MAXIMUM!

There is hope - the existence of the new Space Hulk might mean they keep GS as they are or even make them better, just to encourage a little bit of cross-lined synergy.

That would of course imply that GW has a modicum of business sense.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd like to see different HQ choices affect what sort of swarm you are fielding, to unify lists a bit more.

For example, you take a Flyrant, and you can take a unit or two of (hopefully plastic) Gargoyles as troops?

And yeah, just drop the Only Glance from the Venom Cannon.

Oh, have no fear that the new Nid HQ choices will affect the army. For example, Genestealers will probably become non-Scoring Elites. (*and* cost more, because GS are good Troops right now, and GW never swings the nerf bat lightly). But if you take a Broodlord, then you will be able to take them as Scoring Troops, as they are today.

Similarly, if you take the Red Terror Special Monster, Ravenors will be available as both Elites and Troops.

That sort of thing.

Man, does anyone else have the opinion that this HQ-choice-makes-the-army kick that GW has been on just makes for cookie cutter lists? I mean, sure, you can take stuff outside of the "design", but it's like they habd you a template and you are penalized if you wander outside of it.

grizgrin wrote:Man, does anyone else have the opinion that this HQ-choice-makes-the-army kick that GW has been on just makes for cookie cutter lists? I mean, sure, you can take stuff outside of the "design", but it's like they habd you a template and you are penalized if you wander outside of it.

*looks at Vulkan lists*

Ya think?

It could be worse though. Having to take characters to alter your army is a lesser evil. What's the greater evil? The Chaos Codex. No options, no changes when you take any sort of HQ - just wall-to-wall bland.

ShadowRocket wrote:I'm kind of tired of MCs hiding behind a fence of gaunts though to get a 4+ cover save. Its obnoxious (although I do think my local store was playing it wrong but w/e).

MCs are huge and are supposed to be targeted, theyre giant death machines for feths sake. This said, Warriors, Fexes, and Tyrants should be able to take a fair amount of hits and keep moving. They're all immune to instant death sure, but the lascannon heavy lists still tear them apart without their cover shenanigans.

You are correct, they are playing it wrong. re-read the cover rules for Monstrous Creatures. An MC only gets cover if at least 50% of the model is obscured. NONE of the other cover rules apply (not shooting through more than 2" of cover, not shooting through another unit unless that unit hides more than 50% of the model) About the only units that can effectively hide a carnifex are other MCs and occasionally warriors / zonethropes if you do it just right. Gaunts definitely do NOT give you a cover save.

Its just showing that something "that" big can't really hide that well.
http://images.clipartof.com/small/14241-Big-Green-Dinosaur-Hugging-And-Hiding-Behind-A-Tree-In-Fear-Clipart-Illustration.jpg

Bring back the Exocrine!

The Tyranid tank should return!

king88mob wrote:

You are correct, they are playing it wrong. re-read the cover rules for Monstrous Creatures. An MC only gets cover if at least 50% of the model is obscured. NONE of the other cover rules apply (not shooting through more than 2" of cover, not shooting through another unit unless that unit hides more than 50% of the model)

Or if half the unit it is with has cover (See also Tyrant with Tyrant Guard)

H.B.M.C. wrote:just wall-to-wall bland.

Agreed.

If you want to get creative with your list, you are in exactly the same position as you were before - you work with the basic list and come up with something cool.

I'd like to see one HQ for each of the major hive-fleets that will probably determine, amongst other things, which biomorphs you will be able to take on which class of units. This would give each fleet a nice distinct feeling, based upon what races it's encountered.

Off the top of my head I don't know if the Tau have encountered the 'Nids yet, but it would not surprise me to see a few Tau-genes in the new book.

I'd wonder what happend when the Tyranids start melding genes with the already genetically flexible kroot? The Vespid could also be up for Tyranid infesting.

aka_mythos wrote:I'd wonder what happend when the Tyranids start melding genes with the already genetically flexible kroot? The Vespid could also be up for Tyranid infesting.

This makes me think of Starcraft when the Zerg attack the Protoss homeworld of Aiur.

"And we have consumed them, we shall then be....

Perfect."

Do that with either Eldar or Tau and its the same principle.

But if the Tau are the "Hope for a dying universe" then do they have something to stop the Nids?

And I think they've fought nids as there is art of them doing so in a book I've seen. May have been the battle for macragge starter intro book....

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Oh, have no fear that the new Nid HQ choices will affect the army. For example, Genestealers will probably become non-Scoring Elites. (*and* cost more, because GS are good Troops right now, and GW never swings the nerf bat lightly). But if you take a Broodlord, then you will be able to take them as Scoring Troops, as they are today.

Similarly, if you take the Red Terror Special Monster, Ravenors will be available as both Elites and Troops.

That sort of thing.

I can totally see the Broodlord = 1 GS choice as Troops, but I was thinking they'll probably do something like make GS Elites, but with the 4+ save, but also give you the option of taking the 5+ save GS with Scout as a Fast Attack choice. Like Scout and Armored Sentinels.

That would be cool man... (the above)
GS all over the table....

GS all over the table that would not be able to hold objectives....

Klueless wrote:Oh god! ELITES! NOOOOOOOOOO!
GS are the age old troop choice for Tyranids surely?
Even back when i bought my first Space Hulk GS were in the box. No mention of Gaunts.....
I guess they are feared on the Battlefield but they aren't any better than the latest additions to the SM Assault Terminators. God they are hard to beat these days.
Talk about balance?
They are one sided to the MAXIMUM!

Weren't Genestealers unreleated to Tyranids in their earliest (Space Hulk, presumably) appearances?

The Genestealers always seem to be an odd off-shoot of the Tyranids. The name doesn't even fit, really, but the idea of the Genestealer cults as another insidious crack in the Imperium is a very tempting idea.

With any luck there will be a studio shake-up and the next Tyranid Codex won't be written in the current style.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Give us a Biovore model that doesn't look like %^%.

Don't give us new species.

If you look closely at the biovore he's smiling at you.

GG

Balance wrote:

Klueless wrote:Oh god! ELITES! NOOOOOOOOOO!
GS are the age old troop choice for Tyranids surely?
Even back when i bought my first Space Hulk GS were in the box. No mention of Gaunts.....
I guess they are feared on the Battlefield but they aren't any better than the latest additions to the SM Assault Terminators. God they are hard to beat these days.
Talk about balance?
They are one sided to the MAXIMUM!

Weren't Genestealers unreleated to Tyranids in their earliest (Space Hulk, presumably) appearances?

The Genestealers always seem to be an odd off-shoot of the Tyranids. The name doesn't even fit, really, but the idea of the Genestealer cults as another insidious crack in the Imperium is a very tempting idea.

With any luck there will be a studio shake-up and the next Tyranid Codex won't be written in the current style.

Genestealers were part of the first codex... i think genestealers are an off-shoot of tyranids. They are important for planting the seed! I think it would be cool to bring back the hybrids and what not... but i know that wont happen

Taking genestealers as anything other than troops takes all of the bite out of our troops choices and forces us to decide whether we want units to keep our crap gaunts in line, or units to kill the enemy with. I'd rather keep them as troops. Save elites for Warrior genus creatures and fast attack for Raveners, Gargoyles, and other "fast" things. Trygons will probably become heavy support to prevent Nidzilla from fielding even more big critters, but it SHOULD be Fast Attack. Nobody takes biovores as it is, and Zoanthropes only exist for Psychic Scream and synapse support. Warp blast needs serious work.

acreedon wrote:Genestealers were part of the first codex... i think genestealers are an off-shoot of tyranids. They are important for planting the seed! I think it would be cool to bring back the hybrids and what not... but i know that wont happen

Whilst they were part of the first Tyranid Codex, they were originally aliens from Ymgarl - they were retconned into the army list later on.

They should make Trygons a dedicated transport

Railguns wrote:Taking genestealers as anything other than troops takes all of the bite out of our troops choices and forces us to decide whether we want units to keep our crap gaunts in line, or units to kill the enemy with.

Sounds like all the more reason for GS to move to Elites, unless you buy an overpriced Broodlord HQ to make them Troops. Then GW (and by "GW", I mean their green eyeshade bean counter staff) wins (and by "wins", I mean makes Nid players spend more money on an overpriced metal model just to maintain the status quo).

But don't worry, Crudace will make your Gaunts as cheap as they'll be crappy. But if you buy the right combination of stuff that they want you to (Special Monster HQ, Warriors and expensive new Trygons), then you'll have a good army. Just like every other Nid player.

Part of the design philosophy for Tyranids has always been, supposedly, that the bullet catchers are there to make sure that the killy stuff lives to do its job. I don't think they've found the right balance between cheap fodder, junk to keep the fodder in line, and stuff that kills the enemy yet. Keeping Genestealers in troops is a convenient fix right now because they won't compete with Warriors, who aren't anywhere in the same league in regards to lethality, but still allows you plenty of Gaunts because of the 6 troop choices availabe. Genestealers are effective, but not the game ruling ubertroops they seem to be treated as. It would be a catch 22, to on one hand need the Warriors to keep our line turkeys doing what they need to do (dying so our killy stuff lives) but on the other need the killy stuff for our gaunts to protect in the first place.
Genestealers suddenly not being able to hold objectives would be a silly arbitrary choice. Which is why Arby Cruddacce wiill probably do it.

Mattlov wrote:Bring back the Exocrine!

The Tyranid tank should return!

+1

This is what I tell Forgeworld every time I order anything from them.

Necros wrote:They should make Trygons a dedicated transport

agree, a underground transport

Frankly, I'd like to see Rippers move front and center into the dedicated bullet catcher role and have Gaunts settle somewhere between bullet-catcher and "able-to-do-something-besides-lurk-on-objectives." As I think I alluded to before, too much of the army has evolved to become fodder/tarpits. Among other things, that doesn't lend itself to a particularly fun playstyle.

The more I think about it, the more I think the new units will include the Malanthrope, Meiotic Spore Sacks, or other existing FW models. According the rumors, they won't have models for some units available immediately. So that's where FW comes in, much like what happened with IG and some of their tanks.

I could see the Meiotic Spore Sacs replacing the the current spore mine fast attack choice. And would even welcome it if it continues to counts as a strength 5 large blast bio-spore:

No cover

Allways str +2d6 (no down grading due to living metal/ or hole not being over the vehicle/ect.)

then i could see this as being a beefy anti-mech tool. But I agree with HBMC, all they need to do is remove the outdated "VC always glance" rule. Instead of making new units, they just need to make the 75% of the current existing range not suck.

gorgon wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think the new units will include the Malanthrope, Meiotic Spore Sacks, or other existing FW models. According the rumors, they won't have models for some units available immediately. So that's where FW comes in, much like what happened with IG and some of their tanks.

Except, Crudace didn't do the simple and obvious thing of making all FW stuff playable. Despite NONE of it being broken. Instead, Crudace took half of the stuff, and pulled an equal amount of stuff out of his butt.

You'll get the Trygon, and possibly the Malanthrope (because it's smaller than a Trygon), but I wouldn't get wound up for anything past that. Then, you'll get whatever Crudace pulls out his butt.
____

wyomingfox wrote:all they need to do is remove the outdated "VC always glance" rule. Instead of making new units, they just need to make the 75% of the current existing range not suck.

This is GW. One can pretty much guarantee that they won't do the obviously sensible thing. Please try again.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:all they need to do is remove the outdated "VC always glance" rule. Instead of making new units, they just need to make the 75% of the current existing range not suck.

This is GW. One can pretty much guarantee that they won't do the obviously sensible thing. Please try again.

Oooh, I've got one. Rending spinefists. Suddenly, all of your 'gaunts are a threat to rhinos!!!one!!1!

I wouldn't mind a Trygon/Malanthrope set

Rending spinefists, good one Jan. That's right up there with armour piercing BB's.

oh and I wanna see spike rifles and stranglewebs come back so I can use my old-old gaunts

Nid transports (in the sense of a biological rhino/chimera equivalent) don't seem right to me fluffwise - unless they're a drop-pod equivalent (possibly even a drilling-up-from-underground version).

But simpler would be to allow some sort of infestation markers which then allow special deployment, perhaps non-deviating Deep Striking, or reserves, or even WithOutNumber reinforcements - fluffwise these are tunnels previously built by the nids.

Or just let the whole army Infiltrate/Scout!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

gorgon wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think the new units will include the Malanthrope, Meiotic Spore Sacks, or other existing FW models. According the rumors, they won't have models for some units available immediately. So that's where FW comes in, much like what happened with IG and some of their tanks.

Except, Crudace didn't do the simple and obvious thing of making all FW stuff playable. Despite NONE of it being broken. Instead, Crudace took half of the stuff, and pulled an equal amount of stuff out of his butt.

You'll get the Trygon, and possibly the Malanthrope (because it's smaller than a Trygon), but I wouldn't get wound up for anything past that. Then, you'll get whatever Crudace pulls out his butt.

I don't think alot of the FW IG stuff really would have brought anything worthwhile. I think while FW has good ideas, I think it becomes a failure on their part if they resort to only taking whats been done by FW and utilizing that. Its lazy.

Crudace isn't that bad and hyperbole should only be taken so far. While people might disagree with the direction GW is taking 40k codecies and the IG by association it has been done with a particular consistency amongst all the codecies. So while you disagree with it laying the blame on the author is a bit much. I seriously believe much of whats complained about the IG is a result of instructions given to the author and not necessarily his choice. That said you must consider that he is accountable to other people and his creativy judged by supervisors and editors so just copying what has been done would never happen no matter how straight forward or desired by players it might be. Its unrealistic.

Hyperbole, overreacting and shifting the blame are the staples of rumour discussion here.

NEVER!

@aka: in that case, the author of C: IG should be Alan Smithee.

BrookM wrote:Hyperbole, overreacting and shifting the blame are the staples of rumour discussion here.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with those things. I'm just saying the extent to which it was taken in that particular instance is a bit far.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@aka: in that case, the author of C: IG should be Alan Smithee.

Accountablility on trivial things should only be taken so far. I think it ultimately belongs to the more senior people who instruct him than to Crudace. He's written one codex and he was probably heaviy instructed by his seniors on this. While its nice to hold people to a high standard would you expect a man to lose his job for saying no to paramtere of the task his supervisors give him?

I'm not a Nid Player personally but a new dex might sway me. Here's what I'm hoping for;

Trygon-Allows units to follow through tunnels. It can also burrow back down through the ground back into reserve.

A salamander type creature that breathes fire.

New biomorphs and weapons.

And model wise I think we'll see this.

Wave1
Plastic Trygon
Recut Hormaguants
Recut Termaguants
Plastic HT
Pewter BL with Feeder Tendrils
One of the new species in Metal

Wave 2
Plastic Warriors/Raveners..maybe Lictors to
Recut Genestealers(New biomorphs have been sighted in space hulk)
New Biovores
New Plastic/Metal kits of the 2 other new races.

If it's his name on the cover, and he gets the credit, then he gets the blame.

That's the whole point of signing one's name to something.

aka_mythos wrote:Crudace isn't that bad and hyperbole should only be taken so far. While people might disagree with the direction GW is taking 40k codecies and the IG by association it has been done with a particular consistency amongst all the codecies. So while you disagree with it laying the blame on the author is a bit much. I seriously believe much of whats complained about the IG is a result of instructions given to the author and not necessarily his choice. That said you must consider that he is accountable to other people and his creativy judged by supervisors and editors so just copying what has been done would never happen no matter how straight forward or desired by players it might be. Its unrealistic.

That's the thing it'd be interesting to know. I'm sure he gets a creative brief. But not all creative briefs are made equal. Some drill down fairly deeply, others are sketchy and give you lots of room to develop the concept. Briefs could be quite different from project to project, and without a true inside scoop, we'd never know how much latitude or how many constraints the author had to work with on a given codex/army book.

Re: transports, I'm kind of "meh" on the idea. Why not just make them faster and nastier?

I don't know if we particularly NEED it, per se, but if GW is going in the direction of scale consistency with the Fantasy Battle range than perhaps downsizing the gaunt models would be a good idea. I don't think they are bad models, besides having to assemble their heads from 2 halves, but they are too big for something that's supposed to be a relatively small fodder creature. If guardsmen are too big compared to Marines, then further comparison shows that Gaunts are each the size of a full grown Bengal tiger (or larger) by scale.

Edit:Oh, and Hormagaunts cannot be made without weighing down the base. It's impossible to make Hormagaunts that don't tip over when they hit the table.

The Gaunt box is going down to 10 models for sure. All that remains to be seen is if it's going to be like the box now with gaunts and hormagaunts or they are going to separate them. This also points to swarm nids being the hot build in the new dex. It will be especially painful to purchase 200 gaunts. Luckily I still have an unassembled Endless swarm apoc formation. I also have a few crusher broods just in case we get carnifex squadrons

A plastic HT kit would be nice but I feel it's unlikely. One of the sculptors said he would love to do a plastic version of the Tyrant however he felt like it wouldn't sell enough units to warrant it's production. Even if one is released it's going to be at the 58 dollar price point. I would personally purchase a ForgeWorld Tyrant over a plastic one at that point. For a few bucks more you can have an amazing resin model.

A new metal BL is again unlikely in my opinion. I guess this is a weird variable with the Space Hulk minis. It's hard for me to believe that they spent the money on the Space Hulk molds only to release it on a limited basis. They will either reuse these models in a new Blood Angles and Tyranid Codex, or they will continue production of SH.

Plastic Lictor will never happen. Well I won't say never because as soon as I do the Nid dex will get squadrons of Lictors or something crazy.

A biovore would be nice, but I would rather see it done as an add-on sprue to the existing carnifex kit.

Plastic Raveners are almost a given if a plastic Trygon makes this release.

Plastic Gargoyles are pretty much confirmed.

I think GW's craetive briefs go like this...

"We are making new models for W, X, Y and Z. Make them have the best rules ever so people will buy them. Do what you want with the rest."

Aside from the Possessed, Spawn, War Walker, and Wraithlord, sure...

No John, Necros is right. The difference is GW are also quite bad at writing rules, so while they may intend to give Shiny New Model Kit #1 killer new rules - and indeed, in their own minds they have given it killer new rules - in reality they get it wrong quite often, leaving us with Possessed/Spawn levels of idiocy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Aside from the Possessed, Spawn, War Walker, and Wraithlord, sure...

War Walkers have their place. 180 pts gets you 24 S6 36" shots a turn, which is actually kind of crazy.

Necros did leave off the "And people already have a lot of A & B units from the last codex, so make those less useful."

And the Wraithlords also a bad example. It wasn't meant to get killer rules because of a new kit, it was only meant to get different rules.

Same deal with Stealth Suits - a bunch of new options (Fusion Guns for Stealth Suits, extra HW/Wraithsword for Wraith Lords) - but they're only available on a shiny new kit that doesn't look like the old kit. So if you want your shiny new options, you have to buy a shiny new kit (or stratch-build your own).

Don't need better rules when you can just make new rules. I can actually picture this happening to the Tyrant - doesn't get any better, just becomes different.

Am I the only person that really likes the new IG book? I have a lot more fun playing now, I'm building new units, and while the uselessness of platoons is a bummer to me, I'm not sure how Arby was supposed to make static shooty units good.

It's OK, but I wanted Light Infantry Platoons of some sort.

That said, I'm planning to knock together a couple PBS squads, just because.

I mean, I can name a half dozen things I don't like about the book (overpriced heavy weapon squads, overpriced Ogryn, underpriced vendettas, stupidly overpriced stormtroopers, wacky wargear prices, and a lack of decent priests), but on the whole it's pretty good. IG feels more like a normal army now, and less completely different.

Polonius wrote:Am I the only person that really likes the new IG book? I have a lot more fun playing now, I'm building new units, and while the uselessness of platoons is a bummer to me, I'm not sure how Arby was supposed to make static shooty units good.

Nope, imo its one of GW's best and easily IG's best rules...ever. Never before has there been a more fun and competitive list available and the "uselessness" of platoons is a pretty bold statement since they're far from that especially with orders and a Commissar. A lot more tactics and flexibility was added to IG that they simply did not have before.

Long before the IG book came out, I expected Platoons & Pie, and as far as the them went, I was right. I just missed out on the supporting stuff.

But I don't do Proposed Rules anymore, either, as it's clear that GW doesn't pay attention to these sorts of things, so might as well just see what pops out.

Cane wrote:

Polonius wrote:Am I the only person that really likes the new IG book? I have a lot more fun playing now, I'm building new units, and while the uselessness of platoons is a bummer to me, I'm not sure how Arby was supposed to make static shooty units good.

Nope, imo its one of GW's best and easily IG's best rules...ever. Never before has there been a more fun and competitive list available and the "uselessness" of platoons is a pretty bold statement since they're far from that especially with orders and a Commissar. A lot more tactics and flexibility was added to IG that they simply did not have before.

Lol, I know it's a bold statement. I'm the same guy that hated hellhounds under the old book. I don't think that current platoons are useless, they just dont' accomplish much and are best kept cheap for objective grabbing and the like. I do like a PCS w/Flamer x4 in chimera, and 2x squad with ac/gl. The whole thing runs 235pts.

^ Very true. Point per point, combined squads with a Commissar is probably the best objective holder in the game.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Long before the IG book came out, I expected Platoons & Pie, and as far as the them went, I was right. I just missed out on the supporting stuff.

But I don't do Proposed Rules anymore, either, as it's clear that GW doesn't pay attention to these sorts of things, so might as well just see what pops out.

Maybe GW does pay attention to the Proposed Rules forum. It could just be a case of covergent evolution, but I remember proposing something like the Platoon rule quite a while before GW published the new Imperial Guard codex. I mean, it is a logical extension of the Combat Squads rule, after all. The vehicle squadrons were a forgone conclusion though: how else were they going to sell more tanks?

Speaking of the Platoon rule, who else thinks that the new Synapse rule will confer Stubborn on units of Tyranids?

who else thinks that the new Synapse rule will confer Stubborn on units of Tyranids?

I don't unless Gaunts get a substantial leadership boost. LD 10 and Stubborn I can see. That'd actually be pretty nice. I'd much, much rather have that than take No Retreat wounds all the freaking time.

Nurglitch wrote:. . . who else thinks that the new Synapse rule will confer Stubborn on units of Tyranids?

actually I could maybe see them (though it could be wishlisting) giving them a rule that states that they never suffer no retreat wounds. Shoot me down if Its going to far.

Let me see if I got this right. GW will make a new kit and it will get rules that are really good, unless it doesn't, then it will get rules which suck, but it will at least get new rules. Every thing else which doesn't get a new kit will also get rules that are either bad or good. Does tht about sum it up?

No.

But you knew that already, so why'd you ask other than to be a smart-ass?

Habit.

Not that this matters much, but all the black-shirts at the local GW store today said they had heard nothing about Nids..

One guy said he believed Necrons or Eldar to be the next codex after wolves...

but we know how much info Black-shirts dont get.

nick

Linkdead wrote:The Gaunt box is going down to 10 models for sure. All that remains to be seen is if it's going to be like the box now with gaunts and hormagaunts or they are going to separate them. This also points to swarm nids being the hot build in the new dex. It will be especially painful to purchase 200 gaunts. Luckily I still have an unassembled Endless swarm apoc formation. I also have a few crusher broods just in case we get carnifex squadrons

A plastic HT kit would be nice but I feel it's unlikely. One of the sculptors said he would love to do a plastic version of the Tyrant however he felt like it wouldn't sell enough units to warrant it's production. Even if one is released it's going to be at the 58 dollar price point. I would personally purchase a ForgeWorld Tyrant over a plastic one at that point. For a few bucks more you can have an amazing resin model.

A new metal BL is again unlikely in my opinion. I guess this is a weird variable with the Space Hulk minis. It's hard for me to believe that they spent the money on the Space Hulk molds only to release it on a limited basis. They will either reuse these models in a new Blood Angles and Tyranid Codex, or they will continue production of SH.

Plastic Lictor will never happen. Well I won't say never because as soon as I do the Nid dex will get squadrons of Lictors or something crazy.

A biovore would be nice, but I would rather see it done as an add-on sprue to the existing carnifex kit.

Plastic Raveners are almost a given if a plastic Trygon makes this release.

Plastic Gargoyles are pretty much confirmed.

A plastic Hive Tyrant would sell like water to a man in a desert.

Railguns wrote:A plastic Hive Tyrant would sell like water to a man in a desert.

I know I'd get two, and I already own 6 Tyrants.

I Might buy a plastic Hive Tyrant. It would depend on if it came out befor I made my Flyrant I've got the parts for awhile ago or not. If I've already made it, a new kit would have to simply look awesomer than my current ones to get me to buy it, plastic or otherwise. Like how I currently have five Lictors (current figs are super awesome).

I can't count how many Hive Tyrant conversions I've seen, and thats just counting the metal kit. People have been making Hive Tyrants out of the plastic Carnifex for gods sake. Put that thing in styrene and GW wouldn't be able to make enough.

I could see them doing plastic lictors, if they were to redo the warrior kit to give you warriors or raveners, they could easily add a couple extra bitz to make a lictor too. all you really need is worms coming outta the mouth and then put your talons on backwards.

They just got the Lictor model right - the current one is an ace sculpt. Why futz with it again?

Necros wrote:I could see them doing plastic lictors, if they were to redo the warrior kit to give you warriors or raveners, they could easily add a couple extra bitz to make a lictor too. all you really need is worms coming outta the mouth and then put your talons on backwards.

True, it would be very easy to do a recut Warrior sprue with Ravener and Lictor options - I'd certainly buy a few. If they're looking at recutting the Warrior sprue anyway (for the unknown hot zingy new Warrior options in the new codex), they might do this at the same time - but I'm not holding my breath...

The current model is the best to ever come around, even though I harbor a good bit of nostalgia for all the 2nd edition nids with their neon multicolor schemes.

I'd say off the cuff that they would needlessly replace it, but if the bean counters have anything to say about it it wouldn't happen barring something bizarre. Most of the newer models GW has been putting out have been great. The new DE models are great, especially the Cold Ones. Stracken was very well done, for a Rob Leifield character that managed to find proper proportioning and anatomy. The Valkyrie looks amazing, if expensive. The new Skaven clanrats are in scale, detailed, and more, erm, "flavorful" then ever. The Vampire Counts skeleton warriors were equally well sculpted.

I just wish we'd get a non-doofus impractical Biovore, Termagants and Hormagaunts that were slightly scaled down, Plastic freaking Gargoyles, and biomorph upgrade sprues that made sense for Warriors and Genestealers. You only get 1 (ONE!!) set of rending claws per warrior box, and only 1 of each head biomorph per sprue of Genestealers. The Zoanthrope just needs rules to compliment the model, the Carnifex needs some stat and points cost tweaking (like not being I1, for instance), Warriors need to be beefier (I actually made a thread about that a long, long time ago and people said it was probably too much) and I would love if the Tyrant Guard actually had those big fold out "shield" plates that their concept art had. The pictures looked like they could actually curl their arms forward like a huge armored gorilla and form their big arm plates into a protective shield for the Hive Tyrant. Right now they just look like angry lumps.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the only Tyranid models that don't have their tongue sticking out are either Zoanthropes, an occasional Gaunt, or have Bio-plasma? When I noticed that it really bothered me for a while.

I'm sure if you were a Tyranid your tongue would be hanging out as well.

I don't expect we'll get new Gaunts. I expect we'll get new Gaunt boxes - 10 for AUD$35 rather than 20 for $50 - and they'll be recut so it's T-Gants or H-Gaunts, and the needed biomorphs.

Warriors will get the same treatment I suspect.

Two new things in plastic - one big, one small. Four things in metal (two units that will make up the Tyranid Power Build, and two that will never be used). And then in wave two they'll do something else, like do metal models for the other Tyranid Special Characters.

As long as one of those is a plastic Gargoyle kit, I don't much care what else they do. I have nearly 300 Gaunts, 150 Genestealers and 60 Warriors - the only thing I don't have lots of is Gargoyles (12 of the original Gargoyle models), so that's all I want. Everything else is just gravy.

They come 16 to a box now, so it would be boxes of 8

Not if they recut the sprue, as HBMC suggested. Hopefully they will, since unlike the newer sprues the Tyranid sprues tend to be full of large empty spaces. They could probably fit another couple of Warriors in a Tyranid Warrior box, for example.

I think its too soon for a nid dex. The last one was like 4 years ago. IG waited 6 years. Necrons, DE, SOB, and DH are older. They need to be redone first.

I do t want them to redo the warriors, but I'd like to see them make a other pose or two for the legs/body. No need for a plastic Lictor, the current one is perfect as is. Plastic gargoyles would rock hard.

People have mentioned the Malinthrope. I've seen the fig but never any kind of rules for it. What does that thi g do? Not asking for specific point costs or rules, just a general purpose.

Sorry, I meant 16. Here they are AUD$50 for 16, like the way 20 Guardsmen were also $50 (but are now $70, thanks to GW being a bunch of fethwits).

Nurglitch wrote:They could probably fit another couple of Warriors in a Tyranid Warrior box, for example.

But they won't.

Aduro wrote:People have mentioned the Malinthrope. I've seen the fig but never any kind of rules for it. What does that thi g do? Not asking for specific point costs or rules, just a general purpose.

Poisoned Attacks that cause Instant Death. That's about it.

Nurglitch wrote:They could probably fit another couple of Warriors in a Tyranid Warrior box, for example.

Only if the box price doubles in the process...

I second the plastic gargoyles, very much needed. I already converted 3 lictors out of warriors using warrior sprue rending claws, hive tyrant scything talons, and the genestealer w/tendrils head with an extra armor plate on the back of his head to cover the gap. I also did 6 raveners using genestealer talons and claws with warrior talons on top, then cut his tail and inserted some of the curved pipe from a venom cannon to make a long tail. It makes them look lean and fast. The other thing I would like to see would be a warrior lord HQ with the stats of a broodlord (I 6 though), a warrior retuine and the eye of the hive conduit psychic power from apocalypse reload (pass test for all broods in 12" to have preferred enemy and catalyst). Maybe make the power only usable if you have 3 or 4+ warriors in the brood. A generic red terror would be nice, fast attack needs help.

mikesorensonxx:

So I'm not the only one that thought of that Lictor conversion. Cool!

It would be a shame if the broodlord got nerfed, especially with the awesome new space hulk brood lord model coming out.

gothmog wrote:It would be a shame if the broodlord got nerfed, especially with the awesome new space hulk brood lord model coming out.

All he needs is fleet. At 106 pts he's 4 st 6 att's w/ reroll (retuine tendrils), 2 wounds per hit with no armor save and he goes first. He carves up nobs, etc in a hurry. He's great at what he does, he just needs a little more help from the army so he can do it. By the way, are those supposed to be scything talons on the new model, or really big rending claws? I'm used to seeing my broodlord, I put his rending claws on bottom and warrior talons on top cause his were too small!

mikesorensonxx wrote: I also did 6 raveners using genestealer talons and claws with warrior talons on top, then cut his tail and inserted some of the curved pipe from a venom cannon to make a long tail. It makes them look lean and fast.

Interesting idea, I never thought of using heavy weapons to make Ravener tails - I'll have to take a look at that.

mikesorensonxx wrote:

gothmog wrote:It would be a shame if the broodlord got nerfed, especially with the awesome new space hulk brood lord model coming out.

All he needs is fleet. At 106 pts he's 4 st 6 att's w/ reroll (retuine tendrils), 2 wounds per hit with no armor save and he goes first. He carves up nobs, etc in a hurry. He's great at what he does, he just needs a little more help from the army so he can do it. By the way, are those supposed to be scything talons on the new model, or really big rending claws? I'm used to seeing my broodlord, I put his rending claws on bottom and warrior talons on top cause his were too small!

Good question about if the talons are scything or big rending claws. I don't know the SH in-game classification. Haven't got my set yet. But I suspect that the Nids codex will get the royal treatment in conjunction with the release of the SH set. Hopefully. The genestealers deserve it. What a truly sublime 40k unit.

And I agree... broodlords should have fleet.

Stealers either get lots better to encourage people to buy more, or if GW considers themselves to have sold 'enough' from last edition, something new gets pimped.

As for the Broodlord, the Hulk model doesn't have Talons. Just BIG claws.

gothmog wrote:

Good question about if the talons are scything or big rending claws. I don't know the SH in-game classification. Haven't got my set yet. But I suspect that the Nids codex will get the royal treatment in conjunction with the release of the SH set. Hopefully. The genestealers deserve it. What a truly sublime 40k unit.

And I agree... broodlords should have fleet.

In SH he's harder to kill than a genestealer (takes 2 kill shots in a row to finish him so the heavy flamer can't do it), counts as 3 genestealers (blips), and hits harder in close combat. But they don't have stat lines or bio weapons.

Sorry to take us back to square-1, but do we have any sort of rumor summary for Tyranids? We keep getting carried away with wishlisting and pontificating what should or might happen, which can be fun, I know, but what do we really know? Are there any leaks from the top? Cause as far as I know (which isn't much) they're not even being worked on. All I hear is that they NEED a fix...

The only thing is the Plastic Trygon to my knowledge.

I thought that they would be updating some of the older armies, Necrons and Dark eldar need lots of updating and new figures.

Before this becomes a discussion on which army "should" in anyones oppinnion be next, all armies will be redone. GW's critera are just simply not based on which needs it the most being done first. If anything that is the basis for determining which army is redone last. Maximum return for least effort.

Archonate wrote:Sorry to take us back to square-1, but do we have any sort of rumor summary for Tyranids? We keep getting carried away with wishlisting and pontificating what should or might happen, which can be fun, I know, but what do we really know? Are there any leaks from the top? Cause as far as I know (which isn't much) they're not even being worked on. All I hear is that they NEED a fix...

I think you need to read the thread.

gorgon wrote:

Archonate wrote:Sorry to take us back to square-1, but do we have any sort of rumor summary for Tyranids? We keep getting carried away with wishlisting and pontificating what should or might happen, which can be fun, I know, but what do we really know? Are there any leaks from the top? Cause as far as I know (which isn't much) they're not even being worked on. All I hear is that they NEED a fix...

I think you need to read the thread.

Why? There's no actual content in the thread.

Archonate - no, we've got no solid rumors here.

The Trygon is a solid rumor and i believe confirmed. As well as the introduction of 4 new species are rumors. I don't know what constitutes as a solid rumor, though.

Janthkin wrote:

gorgon wrote:

Archonate wrote:Sorry to take us back to square-1, but do we have any sort of rumor summary for Tyranids? We keep getting carried away with wishlisting and pontificating what should or might happen, which can be fun, I know, but what do we really know? Are there any leaks from the top? Cause as far as I know (which isn't much) they're not even being worked on. All I hear is that they NEED a fix...

I think you need to read the thread.

Why? There's no actual content in the thread.

Archonate - no, we've got no solid rumors here.

Well, we've got the 'confirmation' at Games Day Spain that Necron and Tyranid are 'in the works'. Then there's Games Day Germany where I believe some Warpshadow members asked Phil Kelly (author of the current 'nid codex), who mentioned the codex is already being written, but not by Phil Kelly. We'd get 4 new species (one of which dwarfs a Carnifex, general consensus is that could be the Trygon), that special characters would make a return and that they'd solve the anti-tank problem.

And of course, the numerous plastic Trygon rumours which have been going on for months.

Redemption wrote:Well, we've got the 'confirmation' at Games Day Spain that Necron and Tyranid are 'in the works'. Then there's Games Day Germany where I believe some Warpshadow members asked Phil Kelly (author of the current 'nid codex), who mentioned the codex is already being written, but not by Phil Kelly. We'd get 4 new species (one of which dwarfs a Carnifex, general consensus is that could be the Trygon), that special characters would make a return and that they'd solve the anti-tank problem.

And of course, the numerous plastic Trygon rumours which have been going on for months.

Slight correction...I believe the rumor is that the codex is already finished, which it probably would be if we're looking at an early 2010 release.

Outside of this thread, Brimstone's been indicating Tyranids are next up, and even Harry on Warseer has dropped a few sneaky hints that it's coming. Is any of this public confirmation from GW? Umm...no. But obviously GW doesn't do that kind of thing anymore until the release is imminent. So I'm afraid rumors like this are the closest thing we have to "real" content.

If what i heard is correct than nid special charaters are just going to be more evolved versions of other nids.
so in other words a bigger badder bug that you can only have 1 of.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020044&prodId=prod1095384

Nid battleforce has been discontinued. All signs point towards an early 2010 release.

only gargoyle pack #2 is available and ships in 3-4 weeks when everything else is 24 hours. I'm getting excited!

Interesting, but I've heard quite a bit of stirring about Necrons being in Jan. 2010. Could Tyranids be that close after that? Anyone else care to offer confirmation or refutation on the Necron rumors?

BrassScorpion wrote:Interesting, but I've heard quite a bit of stirring about Necrons being in Jan. 2010. Could Tyranids be that close after that? Anyone else care to offer confirmation or refutation on the Necron rumors?

Just that I've heard alot more about tyranids than necrons, space hulk just came out, and tyranids outsell necrons by a ways. It makes more sense, not logical sense but GW sense.

No date has been given for Necrons. Tyranids in early 2010 has been buzzing since 2008. In fact, Space Wolves came out of left field in comparison to the amount of Tyranid buildup.

I think you have heard some BS rumours; Cron were only started recently. They are not expected until late 2010/early 2011.

Redemption wrote:Well, we've got the 'confirmation' at Games Day Spain that Necron and Tyranid are 'in the works'. Then there's Games Day Germany where I believe some Warpshadow members asked Phil Kelly (author of the current 'nid codex), who mentioned the codex is already being written, but not by Phil Kelly.

I wonder what Phil Kelly is doing after SWs...

He started Grey Knights after finishing them.

Well it's good to know the project has been confirmed. I assume these projected release dates for Tyranids are guestimations. I think the Necron project rumor has been in circulation a while longer. They could emerge first. Heck, if Phil Kelly has gone to Grey Knights next, it could be assumed he already finished the DE codex. (Which many rumors say he has.) In which case all that stands between them and a release is Jes Goodwin finishing the last 1/4 of their sculpts.

Seems there's really no telling how long before Tyranids are released. (Or any of the above, for that matter.)

So, they're making a Grey Knights codex, instead of codex inquisition?

Necros wrote:So, they're making a Grey Knights codex, instead of codex inquisition?

That's the rumor. Basically, somebody at the studio feels they were a little 'inquisition-happy' with Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters (which came out around the time Inquisitor was big) and wants to bring them back to the core concept.

I guess that kinda makes sense, maybe I'm silly but I'd rather see grey knights treated like their own marine chapter with a codex like dark angels or space wolves, and then a separate Inquisition codex that's all inquisitors and their henchmen

Necron *wishlisting* has been going on longer, prolly because it's an older book. I believe Harry on Warseer said that they've only now started on Necrons. My guess is that means late 2010 or 2011.

FYI, another usually reliable source on Warseer (75hastings69) just said he's almost positive Tyranids are next up. While nothing is confirmed or guaranteed, I think Tyranids have to be the heavy favorite to be next based on the circumstantial evidence.

That's a shame. I would have loved to see a consolidated inquisition book. Oh well, at least that means there will probably be a sisters book too.

Personally I didn't really care for the concept of grey knights as a stand alone army. they would be great as a couple supporting units, but the idea of "a chapter of spacemarines, but better, all with pychic powerz" never really gelled with me. I would rather see them as a small group of specialized librarians from a whole bunch of chapters that specifically assist the inquisition with demons as the Grey Knights. but that's just me, threadjacking.

Back to the main thread, I can understand why 'nids are coming out soon with space hulk inbound, but I would have much rather seen DE or necrons, as those two codecies REALLY needed the update, rather than Nids, which still does relatively well.

Necrons and DE definitely need updates very badly, but I think they're prioritizing Tyranids for several reasons:

1) Tyranids sell more than the DE and Necrons - possibly more than both put together.

2) Tyranids were probably the army most broken by 5th edition. Yes, Necrons took a hard hit, but they still have access to things that kill vehicles efficiently. Tyranids have jack. They are also no longer fast since everything can run, Genestealers became merely good instead of game-breaking (a good change, but they still need some retooling), and Gaunts, Rippers, and anything swarmy got neutered to hell by the No Retreat rules.

3) The vast majority of the Tyranid codex is simply unusable. I realize that DE and Necrons have this problem, too, but it's nowhere near as bad as what's in the 'Nid book, in my opinion. This issue ties in with 1) and 2) above. Sure, GW is happy that they're selling Carnifexes like hotcakes, but 70% of the available units just sit on game stores' shelves waiting to become useful again.

I'm excited for the new models, and I hope they make the bugs considerably more diverse. If this codex turns out anything like the IG book in terms of versatility, I will be absolutely thrilled.

Jervis has commented repeatedly that there would not be a combined Inquisition book, Andy Hoare confirmed earlier this year that he would be working on the Sisters and, at around the same time, it was confirmed by Phil Kelly that he was working on Grey Knights after he finished Space Wolves (and he started Space Wolves after he finished Dark Eldar, who are just waiting on minis now). This is all very, very old news.

Necron rumours have been around a long time, but they were repeatedly shot-down as wish-listing. Necron development started around 6 months back, and a Codex takes around 18 months to complete, eliminating any possibility of Necron being the first release of next year.

Nids are an `easy' army, and Games Workshop are putting out a lot of easy armies at the moment so that the harder ones (eg Dark Eldar, Necron) can have more time dedicated to them. This way, they end up `right' in the end. In development time, an easy Codex could be done in a year, or maybe less, whereas Dark Eldar have been in the works for years.

You know, if His Jervisness has indeed said GW won't combine the Inq books, I think it's a lost opportunity. They have a ton of codexes in rotation, doing a little something to reduce that without just Squating armies would have been a boon to all.

Or just manning up, getting ahold of some fething professionalism and some goddamn sense of responsibility for your fething job and increasing the rate of output without sacrificing quality. Yeah, that'd work too.

Elric of Grans wrote:Jervis has commented repeatedly that there would not be a combined Inquisition book, Andy Hoare confirmed earlier this year that he would be working on the Sisters and, at around the same time, it was confirmed by Phil Kelly that he was working on Grey Knights after he finished Space Wolves (and he started Space Wolves after he finished Dark Eldar, who are just waiting on minis now). This is all very, very old news.

Necron rumours have been around a long time, but they were repeatedly shot-down as wish-listing. Necron development started around 6 months back, and a Codex takes around 18 months to complete, eliminating any possibility of Necron being the first release of next year.

Nids are an `easy' army, and Games Workshop are putting out a lot of easy armies at the moment so that the harder ones (eg Dark Eldar, Necron) can have more time dedicated to them. This way, they end up `right' in the end. In development time, an easy Codex could be done in a year, or maybe less, whereas Dark Eldar have been in the works for years.

grizgrin wrote:You know, if His Jervisness has indeed said GW won't combine the Inq books, I think it's a lost opportunity. They have a ton of codexes in rotation, doing a little something to reduce that without just Squating armies would have been a boon to all.

Wholly agree with that! Getting one functional ally system to work, even if it's slightly underpowered, I think the majority of gamers don't use allies for that. Just make the two armies be able to use more than 50% of their units (without be laughed of the field that is).

grizgrin wrote:

Or just manning up, getting ahold of some fething professionalism and some goddamn sense of responsibility for your fething job and increasing the rate of output without sacrificing quality. Yeah, that'd work too.

My initial reaction, but, how many people are wokring for GW anyway? Honestly curious. Because you can't tell me that they need 18 month to come up with, say, the C:SM codex or the Daemon codex. At least not the gaming part of it.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. and this thread is getting seriously out of topic. For rules suggestion I can recommend the thread in the 40k "proposed rules" section.

Does any1 have a clue about what new bugs were looking at?(please no wild speculations)

The tyranids are once again in GW's vein of easiest first, so it makes sense that they're being done. It really seems like GW is working ahead of itself quite a bit. The Dark Eldar codex is "done", the Tyranid are "done", the different marine codices are all being "done" or rather written at the same time; Grey Knight and SoB are being worked on. I think this points to the fact that GW is actually trying to get the sort of headway they've wanted, that will give them the ability to better focus on more troubled codices.

Its good that the rumors seem to point to the codex being more than just a patch job and that they will be adding more to it.

I just see Grey Knights and SoB becoming less distinctive when they're separate armylists from the inquisition. Grey Knights will just end up being generic space marines with even fewer special rules. SoB will be "female" space marines. Atleast when each were part of the inquisition they had more than their "marine-ness" going for them. What will GW really add to these two armies? They will likely do what ever takes the least effort: SoB with Valkyries, predators, land raider redeemers; Grey Knight Scout, Landspeeder, drop pods, vindicators... etc effectively they will become like every other marine army.

Sisters were originally a separate army anyway, so this should be a good move. Codex: Sisters of Battle was better than Codex: Witch Hunters --- less meaningless filler. Grey Knights, on the other hand, always have been, and should always remain, a part of the Inquisition.

Necros wrote:I guess that kinda makes sense, maybe I'm silly but I'd rather see grey knights treated like their own marine chapter with a codex like dark angels or space wolves, and then a separate Inquisition codex that's all inquisitors and their henchmen

And that's exactly what we're going to get, minus the Inquisitorial part. Just Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle and all the Inquisitorial things will either simply be cut from the game or Jervisified to the point of extreme generic-ness.

Should be awesome fun!!!

Elric of Grans wrote:Sisters were originally a separate army anyway, so this should be a good move. Codex: Sisters of Battle was better than Codex: Witch Hunters --- less meaningless filler. Grey Knights, on the other hand, always have been, and should always remain, a part of the Inquisition.

Just because something was initially or previously done does not mean its worth repeating. While I agree those codices are largely filler, I think the Inquisition is a lesser of two evils. Without the Inquisition to fill the codices, GW will resort to something far worse; they will make them generic by puttting generic filler units in. Grey Knight Scouts... Sister of Battler Predator... Grey Knight Bikes... Sister of Battle Land Speeder... While those sound cool, do those things really bring anything more unique than the inquisition-- no. They're the same old units. It will be GW's opportunity to show us something new, I just doubt we'll get it.

I had this argument only last week. Count the number of units in Codex: Witch Hunters. Off the top of my head, it is something like 17. Now, count the number of them that are Inquisitorial. You get three. There is so little Inquisition in there that considering it an `Inquisitorial' Codex is a joke. Codex: Witch Hunters is just Codex: Sisters of Battle + Codex: Assassins + a little noise.

As for unique, you consider Inquisitorial Storm Troopers more unique than Justifiers (the Sisters' Land Speeder)? At least those units have different stat lines! Inquisitorial Storm Troopers just tacked `Inquisitorial' to the front.

Codex: Sisters of Battle was fine for 2E and 3E, so why GW needed to screw it up for 4E is beyond me.

Pull the Allies rules entirely, along with the Inq Lord & Inq, DCA, and Imperial Assassin. Inq Lord & Assassins can pull from C: DH / C: Inq.

Then it's merely a question of replacing the ISTs with Arbites and restoring Frateris Militia.

If SoB need extra units, a couple Predator-class Tanks would make sense, with HF or Melta sponsons distinct from the basic HB / LC kit that SMs get.

But the idea that SoB would get bikes and SM Land Raider variants (aside from the Crusader/Redeemer, which would fit nicely if they lost the twin AC for a twin MM) is a bit off, IMO.

grizgrin wrote:You know, if His Jervisness has indeed said GW won't combine the Inq books, I think it's a lost opportunity. They have a ton of codexes in rotation, doing a little something to reduce that without just Squating armies would have been a boon to all.

Or just manning up, getting ahold of some fething professionalism and some goddamn sense of responsibility for your fething job and increasing the rate of output without sacrificing quality. Yeah, that'd work too.

Another important factor here is the marketing angle. GW doesn't want their releases cannibalizing one another. Thus they space them out. Also, they have production constraints which limit them to a certain number of new releases every year. These are both important and shouldn't be overlooked.

Having said that, it obviously occurs to one that if prices weren't so high, releases might be able to be pushed slightly less far apart. It also suggests that GW can't really support three core systems as well as it should. (And that's not a knock on LotR/WotR...all I'm saying is that there's a numbers game at work.)

My FLGS just got word that 'the Tyranid battle force and Codex will not be available for restock for the next few months. draw what conclusions that you want from that.'

Buckethead wrote:My FLGS just got word that 'the Tyranid battle force and Codex will not be available for restock for the next few months. draw what conclusions that you want from that.'

OMG, they've been eaten by the Squats!

I picked up a copy I saw down at my FLGS the other day, thanks to the dude that noted they were no longer stocking them.

Grrrrrrrr.... There's some 'Nid stuff I need, mainly another Carnifex, they're not going to stop restocking that are they? My 40k budget is already spoken for the next few weeks saving up for Space Hulk and it would take me a couple weeks more to get the money for a 'Fex.

I highly doubt that they'll stop restocking Carnifexes. I doubt that they'll be recast, and they sell like hotcakes. Mind you, GW does do a pretty decent job at shooting itself in the foot.

But seriously, I don't see Carnifexes disappearing from shelves en masse.

Nurglitch wrote:I picked up a copy I saw down at my FLGS the other day, thanks to the dude that noted they were no longer stocking them.

If you're referring to the codex, you picked the worst time, son.

Nah, the worst time would be the last week of January.

the only reason I can think of to pick up the current dex now is simply to make sure you "preserve" the current batch of fluff before it gets axed in the new genericized version. Tyranids have had mountains of stories and background lost to changes in Editions and rulebooks, so I don't expect them to go about it any differently now. I hope I'm wrong though, and they write up all sorts of new background to inspire me again.

i not sure this may just be in my eyes but in the septmber white dawft in the age of rock campian they say that phil kelly was aloud to use his trygon in the campain, could this because they let him use the new codex or is that going a bit far .
any way i think there doing tryanids now as they sell better

Just off the top of my head, but I wouldn't mind a unit upgrade to biovores or something that was basically a Carnifex sized creature that puked up 2d6 or some other large number of spore mines a turn at a target unit. Maybe make it it's own heavy support unit. Just have a large, tough Carnifex style walking tank whorfing piles of spore mines on things at 24" would be pretty neat and cinematic in a way too.

yeah that would be cool. It could possibly even be built onto the fex body with an upgrade sprue.

I dunno why there's so much biovore hate out there. Maybe just because they're not "competitive", but I always think they're hella fun to play with. I did a tourney once with my nids, I lost triumphantly against a dark eldar army.. the guy wiped out everything on the last turn, all but 1 biovore, so he charged with his big leader guy who only had 1 wound left and he missed on every swing, then my biovore bit his head off. The other player ended up in 2nd place losing first by like 2 pts because of my brave little biovore refused to die

I'd love to see them get some nice new rules in the new book, and new models too

They don't really seem to do much right now, and compete with much more valuable things as it is. I'd rather make them similar to Drone Sniper squads. 0-1, but you can take up to 3 broods that can have 3 individuals each. Maybe 30-40 points a model, and give them a selection of spore mines to choose from like Sternguard get ammunition.


Edit: I say this because I've been playing the Lost Planet 2 demo where you and a team of 3 other players work together to take down a giant electic salamander akrid that splits his face open and lashes at you with huge chameleon style tongues. Imagine that guy, but spewing spore mines. They want to play up the living ammo idea, make spore mines prevalent as weapons instead of either an overpriced mortar or fast attack choices who give up kill points by doing wha they were made to do. Spore Cysts upgrades really need to launch the mines in addition to whatever the Carnifex does, not poop one at his feet and maybe hurt him in the process.

Railguns:

Carnifex already have a Spore Mine upgrades allowing them to poop a Spore Mine every turn, though the utility of then throwing them somewhere useful would be something.

Something I could have sworn they'd do with the Orks was to make the Kannon into a sort of light-Battlecannon (So: S8, AP3, Heavy, Blast), so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd imagine that they'll make Spore Mines Big Blast weapons, and possibly leave them off the Force Organization Chart. Having a rain of Spore Mines going on while the swarm advances is pretty fun and characterful, but it's a pity that you can't have it while other Tyranids blacken the sky and rise out of the earth.

My gaming group already discounts kill points from Spore Mines, whether bought as a Fast Attack choice or from Biovores, and I expect that'll get settled in the next codex as well.

They used to essentially be Space Marine Whirlwinds with the added benefit of the missed shots staying on the table. They probably won't give them another weapons' signature profile if they hold to the design policy that led them to change it in the first place. Probably, because they've been all over the place with design philosophy over the years.

I figure they're safe with Acid (S3 AP3), Poison (S-, AP-), and Frag at S4 AP5.

how about if they made it only acid mines (ap3) that go up in stregth for each extra mine, so 1 i str 3, 2 is str4, 3 is str5? oh and a large blast too

Now there's an idea. It would make resolving clusters of Spore Mine easier.

That sounds like it would be fairly clunky to resolve, depending on whether the profile of the blast is decided before or after scattering, because some of the mines might not go off if they miss the target unit and not contribute to the blast effects. If they did that, I don't think anyone would ever bother with the other two anyway.

I'd guess it would be something like it is now, except instead of chaining, they just add up to a more intense blast, so no more charging tanks through an area to pop the mines.

I'd guess it would be something like it is now, except instead of chaining, they just add up to a more intense blast, so no more charging tanks through an area to pop the mines.

Great idea, but i was thinking maybe a spore mine(new one) good latch onto tanks and kind of drill into them with acid or something.

That'd be good, or something like taking a hit on that side always counts as penetrating, instead of just glancing... It'd be really helpful at this point for 'Nid players....

A spore mine that stuck itself to any vehicle it hit then tried every turn to penetrate it (perhaps with increasing chances of likelyhood each successive turn) would be incredibly fluffy - exactly how I see Nid bio-artillery working.

But how would it work ruleswise? Ok, the mine would just get a HtH attack each turn, but the enemy would need some way of potentially killing such an attached mine. Hmm, maybe the mine would simply stay in base to base contact with the vehicle and so could be attacked by other enemy troops - but of course the sensible way to kill such a creature would be by shooting it, and v5 rules don't allow that.

Limpet mines. If they land on or other wise make base contact with a vehicle they are considered in close combat with the vehicle and move with it wherever it goes to represent it being attached. It may be fired on with the drawback that missed shots have a chance to hit the vehicle, and it may be assaulted by nearby troops representing friendly forces attempting to remove the mine.
Each turn they make one attack on the host vehicle that automatically hits, and causes a glancing hit on a 4+, and a penetrating hit on a 6. Looks like a spider with tentacles for legs and may make assault moves.

That way, you can add some semi-permanent vehicle annoyance that can potentially destroy a vehicle, but not make it so likely that when you invariably have a battery of biovores firing the new limpet spore mines some can miss, and those that hit are more likely to cause all sorts of glancing shenanigans with a small chance of outright destroying the vehicle.

Interesting...However, I don't think that the added complexity fits with Jervis's current strategy of "40k for Dummies." Given the continous gimping that Biovores have repeatedly recieved since 4rth, I am guessing that the rules will look something like this:

For each Biovore roll a 1D6. On a 1+ remove said Biovore as a casualty, hit yourselves in the nuts, and buy a $35 guant box set.

Here is what I would want from Biovores.

Make them a heavy 3 large blasts with the ability to choose which type you are going to use. If the center of the template scatters off enemy models you can either choose the round to go off or create a spore mine. Spore Mines should be independent units controlled by the Tyranid player that doesn't give up a kill point. No more drifting, no more if an enemy comes close, etc. The enemy can shoot if, but it will go off.

Make Spore Mines useful with a large blast. Have a Str 5 AP 4 blast, Str. 3 AP 3 blast, and a Str 6 AP 6 Melta Blast.

And watch the points cost skyrocket.

Clang:

Why don't the 5th edition rules allow you to shoot such a thing? Infantry in combat with vehicles can be shot, and I'd imagine that the Spore Mine could be treated as enemy infantry.

Railguns wrote:Limpet mines. If they land on or other wise make base contact with a vehicle they are considered in close combat with the vehicle and move with it wherever it goes to represent it being attached. It may be fired on with the drawback that missed shots have a chance to hit the vehicle, and it may be assaulted by nearby troops representing friendly forces attempting to remove the mine.
Each turn they make one attack on the host vehicle that automatically hits, and causes a glancing hit on a 4+, and a penetrating hit on a 6. Looks like a spider with tentacles for legs and may make assault moves.

That seems like a 2E rule.

Or a 4E rule.

I'd prefer something simpler, so it'd be nice if they blow up when they land, or at the end of the next turn, rather than waiting around indefinitely. Spore Mines are cool, but not as a continuous unit creation capability...

Biovore shoots a Spore Mine as a BS2 Barrage. If it hits a vehicle, do a Rending S6 hit; if it's within 2" of infantry place a S4 AP4 large blast, otherwise place a T2 Sv- Spore Mine. The Spore Mine can move within 1" of infantry and explode, or assault a vehicle as above.

That way, there's a limit to the number of Spore Mine units on the board, but they do something useful every time.

Nurglitch wrote:Clang: Why don't the 5th edition rules allow you to shoot such a thing? Infantry in combat with vehicles can be shot, and I'd imagine that the Spore Mine could be treated as enemy infantry.

p40 says you can't shoot into close combat, unless there's an exception elsewhere re close combat with vehicles? - I can't find it in the 5th Ed rule book, but do seem to recall something like that specifically stated for previous editions...

I just found out I was the only person to ask for Nids from the 40k Ard Boyz semi-final winners. 2 Years ago I think I was the only one to ask for IG. I like being ahead of the curve, but let's see if I get something useful for this next edition or not.

Clang wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Clang: Why don't the 5th edition rules allow you to shoot such a thing? Infantry in combat with vehicles can be shot, and I'd imagine that the Spore Mine could be treated as enemy infantry.

p40 says you can't shoot into close combat, unless there's an exception elsewhere re close combat with vehicles? - I can't find it in the 5th Ed rule book, but do seem to recall something like that specifically stated for previous editions...

Infantry don't lock in CC with non-Walker vehicles. Non-Walkers effectively separate at the end of each Assault phase.

It doesn't matter. Synapse creatures can pop all spore mines within 2 feet for free every shooting phase. Nowadays, it's to prevent your opponent from getting free KP.

Excerpt from an email from GW, take it as you will.

* Just a reminder that Space Wolves will be out in October and Skaven will be out in November. The Tyranid codex and battleforce are not available at this time, when they will be back in the system I do not know, that is all the information that I have at this time.

Ooooo SNAP!
Tyranids have been squatted!



What goes around comes around. Squats get tyranided, Tyranids get squatted.

That would be, as far as I can tell, a tragic comedy. I'd laugh.

Don't put the disclaimer It'll be funnier that way.

I have seen the future people!

*6 months from now*

Dakka Poster: Why'd they have to drop Tyranids? What can I use all my 'Nids for now?
JohnHwangDD: Just use 'counts as'. And while you're doing that I'll go back to my new Dark Eldar army.

That is almost sig worthy H.B.M.C.

Clang wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Clang: Why don't the 5th edition rules allow you to shoot such a thing? Infantry in combat with vehicles can be shot, and I'd imagine that the Spore Mine could be treated as enemy infantry.

p40 says you can't shoot into close combat, unless there's an exception elsewhere re close combat with vehicles? - I can't find it in the 5th Ed rule book, but do seem to recall something like that specifically stated for previous editions...

You're never locked in CC with vehicles and vehicles are never locked in CC with you either. The exception of course being walkers. But that's why vehicles can just drive off if they're being attacked. Essentially, does it have a WS? No? Well then it's not in CC and don't treat it as such.

fire4effekt wrote:Excerpt from an email from GW, take it as you will.

* Just a reminder that Space Wolves will be out in October and Skaven will be out in November. The Tyranid codex and battleforce are not available at this time, when they will be back in the system I do not know, that is all the information that I have at this time.

That still leaves every month after November, short of the world ending.

Don't laugh about HBMC's predictions. He's been startingly accurate before.

"I was half-expecting a Lictor to stand up behind the Sargeant at the end of that trailer..."

Que Dawn of War II expanded trailer.

Just got a confirmation on a couple of 'nid out-of-stocks:

-GW is out of the battleforce, none available for order.
-GW is out of the codex, with no plans to reprint.

There's a big sales meeing going on in LV right now. This sometimes means new information right after. If I hear anything definite from my sales rep, I'll post. My best guess is like everyone else's, nids in Jan/Feb.

well there goes my tax return...

mikhaila wrote:Just got a confirmation on a couple of 'nid out-of-stocks:

-GW is out of the battleforce, none available for order.
-GW is out of the codex, with no plans to reprint.

There's a big sales meeing going on in LV right now. This sometimes means new information right after. If I hear anything definite from my sales rep, I'll post. My best guess is like everyone else's, nids in Jan/Feb.

Woot
Im looking forward to another cool motto ala "everything you have been told is a lie" and the whole "its not space hulk, its not space hulk, its not space hulk --- muahwahahwhahw fooled ya, it IS space hulk giggle" shebang deal.

TBH: I am looking forward to nids though.

I think that we already known that nids were coming up this kind of just confirms it so now to speculate whats going to be in the new codex.

mikhaila wrote:Just got a confirmation on a couple of 'nid out-of-stocks:

-GW is out of the battleforce, none available for order.
-GW is out of the codex, with no plans to reprint.

There's a big sales meeing going on in LV right now. This sometimes means new information right after. If I hear anything definite from my sales rep, I'll post. My best guess is like everyone else's, nids in Jan/Feb.

I was thinking it was going to be later, with Space Wolves & Skaven on their way shortly...

I guess this means that once again (probably should have seen it coming), DE is being pushed to the back burner.

March release - or whenever the second release of the year typically is (two months after the last big one, so if Skaven is Jan...).

Honestly, I'm in two minds about a new 'Nid. Three minds actually.

1. I dread the prospect of a new Codex because things will be taken away for no reason, they'll swing that pendulum hard (probably as hard as they did with Marines), and we'll get another Jervis-pattern confusing Codex where there are rules for biomorphs scattered throughout the book on random pages, we'll have a dozen special characters that change your army, and all the stuff that's good now (or passable now, since 5th) will be bad, and all the bad stuff will be awesome. Not looking forward to the new Codex at all.

2. New models are something I am looking forward to. I might've disliked the new Guard Codex, and I might hold a raging inferno of ultimate sun-hot fury in my heart for the fething hopeless Chaos Codex, but I loved the new kits. Possessed, Spawn, the recut Chaos Marines (my fav kit of all time), the Valk, Command Squads, new Sentinel - all of them are ace. The idea of getting new plastic 'Nids sounds great, especially if there's a plastic Trygon and/or Gargoyles in there.

3. The third mind is that I, personally, don't want any more models. I have so many fething Tyranids it's insane. I've been playing them since before they even had a Codex. My first Tyranid 'Codex' was the Rogue Trader army list that was in White Dwarf. I have heaps. I have as many Genestealers as most people have Gaunts, and almost three times as many Gaunts! I have as many Tyranid Warriors as most people have Genestealers! And yet I own not a single Biovore... weird... Point is, more new models is just going to require more space, and I don't think I can do that.

Ever want to get rid of some of your 'Stealers on the cheap HBMC.....as in $1US per 'stealer I'll take some off your hands. You can keep the 'gaunts though. LOL.

With any new release I look more to the new models than the actual rules so I look forward to new units and the "official" plastic Trygon, even though it's more or less been staring us in the face since Apocalypse.

I have six Lictors. Three first version, two second, and one current. Want to get another of the current ones yet as they were cast from pure awesome.

Got varryi g verso s of other nids as well as I've updated a d replaced figs if I like the newer one enough.

Fateweaver wrote:Ever want to get rid of some of your 'Stealers on the cheap HBMC.....as in $1US per 'stealer I'll take some off your hands. You can keep the 'gaunts though. LOL.

I'm one of those people who never sells a model. I may own more Genestealers than I have room for (plus the 22 I just got in Hulk), but I love them all... even the Monkey-Nostril Battle for McDonald's ones.

Fateweaver wrote: With any new release I look more to the new models than the actual rules so I look forward to new units and the "official" plastic Trygon, even though it's more or less been staring us in the face since Apocalypse.

See I don't think we have. I don't think we're seen the plastic Trygon. I think we're seen the prototype plastic Trygon, similar to how we saw the prototype Stompa in the Apoc book and the prototype Bastion in the 5th Ed rulebook - but the actual plastic Trygon, probably no pics of that yet.

Aduro wrote:I have six Lictors. Three first version, two second, and one current. Want to get another of the current ones yet as they were cast from pure awesome.

I have 6 as well, but 4 of them are the originals, with the last two being the current one (one being the one from the army box). I own none of the 3rd Ed ones as they are horrible.

Can't be bothered to read the entire thread to see if this has already been mentioned, but would love to see a return of "Jones is acting strangely" in some form or other. That would seal the deal for me

EDIT - For those not familiar with this rule from the 2nd Edition Codex, think the chestbuster scene in Alien

To be honest, I'm worried about the new Codex too... as much as an update will be nice, I have a bad feeling that it's going to be more harm than good.

I think the new Trygon will come out as a second wave release, to reel in the ones who weren't going to buy new 'Nids, but now have an excuse... maybe a recast of another big model might do it *insert Biovore with ridiculous rules here*

They'll probably top the power curve with the new Nids, and present an "organic" codex with more of an effective answer for the plethora of armor and the risk of stacking templates to pure organic armies, buuut ...

As per other posters, I *fear* they'll demolish the popular things as per the business routine, and we'll be forced or urged to go toward gargoyles / biovores / lictors / etc. ... and that's just annoying if it's what happens.

*shrug* and wait

They'll probably write new fluff to illustrate how Lictors evolved to attack enemy armor from the rear with melta-claws, and that we should all be happy to have such an amazing way to deal with tanks. The rules that currently require a Lictor to roll on the deepstrike mishap table just to enter play will not be changed.

I'm excited about the new codex.

But I've given up on them getting Lictors right, even as the Broodlord got the statline they should have, and other codexes like IG have units that are actually effective in the "lone stalker" role (Marbo).

I think Warriors, Biovores, Gargoyles and Rippers might get more interesting. But Lictors? That ship sailed in 1998.

I'm all for new Codecies, but I think they should have focused their energies elsewhere. Like say... in the direction of the DARK ELDAR... or some other forgotten army.

Since that will probably never happen, the other thing that bothers me about a new codex is it's usually more powerful (or seemingly, anyways) than the last one.

Marines of course ignore this rule

of course it will be more powerful, and mid range nids (warriors, lictors, raveners) will probably get boosted to the point where they become useful, so much so that it isn't automatically a nidzilla build, which is good for the army and for the hobby.....predictable builds for specific races are definitely boring....

I reckon nidzilla will go TBH.

We are going to be losing Elite carnifexes, but they are gonna be moved to heavy support as "light carnifex squadrons" where you can form a unit of 1-3 models, and there will be a separate entry for "heavy carnifexes" that can get bio-cannons like Heirophants to fix the fact that venom cannons can't penetrate. I heard it from my cousin who dates a guy who's boyfriend's brother is Jervis's neighbor's best friend, so I have it on pretty good authority.

Hmmm...9 cheap Carnifexes per army...yeah, that seems pretty balanced, though GW will probably make them Deep Strike and able to assault off said Deep Strike just to keep them selling.

With the armor walls that some armies can put out these days we'd probably need 9 Carnifexes to make any headway. A Leman Russ executioner could easily account for one of them a turn, and probably gut a Tyrant/Guard unit in one volley. 5th edition Melta Madness doesn't help their chances either.

I think H.B.M.C. has summed up my view pretty well - other than the numbers involved.

broods of carnifexs


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broods of carnifexs

i think the new cretues will be better then the rest as these will need to sell if there is any kits for them


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I think the new cretues will be better then the rest as these will need to sell if there is any kits for them

I can't wait for biovores to be useful again... and redone to be less fuggly. Os cool as the background for them having orkoid DNA is, they've just never found a way to avoid the orkified biovers looking really, really dumb. I just cut mine up and added gaunt bitz in frustration.

As for nerfing Nidzilla: They may downgrade them, but odds are against the option for that number of carnifexes becoming unfieldable. 6-Carni/30-Stealer armies are good money (and we all know that's a major factor in codex design).

You'd have to go out of your way to make Tyranids worse than they currently are.

Seriously, even Phil Kelly admitted in WD that the only things in the army worth a damn are fexes, tyrants, and genestealers, and even those suffer from quite a few problems.

Looking foward to the new codex. I get to redo most of my Talking About Tyranid videos, but maybe now I can actually play horde Tyranids without it being a useless army. I pretty much shelved Tyranids until this comes out. More bugs to paint as well....

Broken Loose wrote:You'd have to go out of your way to make Tyranids worse than they currently are.

Seriously, even Phil Kelly admitted in WD that the only things in the army worth a damn are fexes, tyrants, and genestealers, and even those suffer from quite a few problems.

Wow, just wow. I don't do tournaments but I'd hardly say the 'nids are that bad and I do play against competent players in my group. Yep, I win more than I lose, guess that really proves that 'nids suck.

Fateweaver wrote:Wow, just wow. I don't do tournaments but I'd hardly say the 'nids are that bad and I do play against competent players in my group. Yep, I win more than I lose, guess that really proves that 'nids suck.

Oh, okay, fine, let's prove this. Why don't we take a look at one of our units and put it to the test.

The Hormagaunt is single-minded in its engineered purpose of closing with the foe and eviscerating it with its scythe-like claws.

We have here a model with no guns and a pair of close combat weapons. It's described as a single-minded killing machine for close combat. Let's put it against some other units, no charges, in equal point values.

A tactical squad of 9 marines and 1 sgt for 170 points, vs. 17 hormagaunts for 170 points. No charge to make things fair. While you can say "the hormagaunts have a larger charge range" it's just as easy to say "the marines have a rhino."

Simultaneous attacks!
17 hormagaunts make for 34 attacks (hit on 4+), 17 hits (5+ to wound), 5.6_ wounds (3+ save), and 1 and eight-ninths of a dead marine.
9+1 marines make for 11 attacks (4+), 5.5 hits (3+), 3.6_ wounds (6+), and slightly over 3 hormagaunts dead.
Huh. The hormagaunts lost in combat to tactical marines who aren't necessarily known for their close combat prowess. Why don't we throw some biomorphs on them?

Both adrenal glands and toxin sacs. +4 points a model. That's 12 hormagaunts and they come up 2 points shy of 170.

Hormagaunts go first. 12 hormagaunts make for 24 attacks (3+), 16 hits (4+), 8 wounds (3+), and 2 and two-thirds dead marines.
6.3_+1 marines make for 8.3_ attacks (4+), 4.16_ hits (3+), 2.7_ wounds (6+), and 2.3_148_ dead hormagaunts. In other words, they tied. But I thought they were supposed to be single-minded killing machines? Marines aren't even combat-focused, as they have BS4 and great guns!

What about other CC units? 12 regular hormagaunts (120 points) versus 20 ork boyz (120 points). This is gonna be ugly with extra uggles. At least the boyz won't get furious charge as a bonus (even though they have a large charge range and rightfully more opportunities to do so).

Hormagaunts go first. 12 is 24 attacks, 12 hits, 4 wounds, and a 6+ save isn't liable to bounce those off. 4 dead boyz.
16 boyz go second. 48 attacks, 24 hits, 12 wounds, and 2 of those get saved. If the hormagaunts are in synapse range, the remaining 2 hormagaunts take 6 no retreat saves. Otherwise, they're near guaranteed to break.

Okay, let's do this. 16 hormagaunts, 160 points. 10 Necron warriors, 160 points. The hormas gotta win this, right? They're Necrons!
Hormas first, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 5.3_ wounds, 1.7_ Necrons fall over.
Warriors second. 8.2_ attacks, 4.1_ hits, 2._740_ wounds, 2.284~ dead hormgaunts.
That's right. They lose to Necron warriors.


Or why don't we consider regular gaunts, who are more expensive than guardsmen, have the stats of guardsmen, have the armor of ork boyz, and to top it all off have to be babysat by an HQ unit or they lose their scoring status? Or how about Tyranid warriors, who can easily exceed terminators in price but perform roughly on the level of regular marines? Or the broodlord, who is the worst infiltrator in the game and the poster child for the rending nerf? Or gargoyles, who only look so good because everything else is so bad? Or biovores, who got nerfed when they weren't used enough in 3rd edition? Or raveners, who can deep strike only to be killed by bolters without even a saving throw to their name-- or are supposed to be nimble assault monsters but can't go up stairs? Or lictors, who have a 1 in 6 chance of impaling themselves on trees just for deploying and get clubbed to death by bolter butts on a regular basis?

At least tyrants are good, even if some of their wargear (Shadow of the Warp) benefits the enemy army to take without even having the decency to provide the same benefit to your own army. And fexes are good but overhyped; they would be worth player complaints if they had invulnerable saves or WEREN'T INITIATIVE 1. Who pays 85 points for a powerfist? Oh, that's right. We do, and it's one of our best units, so much that all the other players hate it and claim it as unfluffy despite codex stories to the contrary.

The whole codex is overcosted, we have a single scoring unit in the whole book and it got its only weapon nerfed because GW whored it out to every army in the galaxy, we have no anti-tank in a tank-heavy edition of the game, we have the slowest army in the game (only Necrons and Daemons don't have transports-- the latter entirely deploys by deep strike and the former can teleport at will around the table), and we're a laughingstock to the rest of the game. All the other players say "Of course you don't suck, X Tyranid player won Y tournament last week" while keeping mum that they were using Nidzilla, the only viable list in the codex, the EXACT ONE THEY WANT REMOVED FROM SAID CODEX. They also go on about how stealers and fexes are amazing: anything is amazing when you field an army of nothing but them because you have no other choices. Necron warriors are SM who get back up on a 4+, 80-100 of them can fit comfortably in a tournament-sized list, and that list is annoying as hell. Does that make them not suck? Well, no, they're really quite poor in today's environment.

Go on. Give your anecdotal evidence of how this one time you used a lictor and 60 hormagaunts to beat everybody in a tournament without mentioning that not a single mechanized army was fielded in the tournament for fear of looking like a "power player." I'll be sitting over here with an actual copy of the codex and the Truth sitting next to me. Yes, the Tyranids need an update, 5th edition has done quite a number on them.

Wow, didn't say I was a tournament player.

Who the hell deepstrikes Raveners anyway? If you think it's all they are good for then nothing you can say after this post is even worth considering. 4 Raveners cost with ST/RC cost 200, 10 assault marines cost 220 naked; 6 of them will die before they even strike; the Marines will inflict one wound, lose by 5 and either fall back or get caught and lose another 1 to no retreat, next turn that squad is gone (the assault squad that is). They are a glass cannon, don't deploy them out in the fething open in LoS of every gun in the opponents army and they will probably see a 2nd turn charge for sure...duh.

Zoanthropes do what I want them to do..provide more synapse, can actually handle being shot at by most guns and also provide the leadership penalty with Scream.

I take lictors as I like to hold my stealers in reserve and outflank them, rerolling reserve rolls is huge....not 80 pts huge but still a boon and my group doesn't make me take dangerous terrain test as we all agree it's silly and even if you are forced to it's a 16% chance to wound yourself so in 6 games you'll suffer a wound....oh wow, so awful.

Biovores can't comment as I don't use them, same for gargs.

Hormogaunts I agree suck.

Carnifexes....unless you run an elite screamer killer who the hell leaves them I1? No list I have seen run heavy carnies without the I upgrade.

It's easy to discount 95% of the codex as crap when you leave everything naked or analyze it under less than ideal conditions. Wow, IG must suck because the lasgun cannot wound a Wraithlord. Oh I know, lets drop Wraithlords to T6 so IG can have a chance to kill it in both cc and shooting.

"less than ideal?"

Assaulting Necron warriors with dedicated CC units is less than ideal? What are YOU smoking?



Also, yeah, sure, blow the whole thing off with "I'm not a tournament player." That's about as valid as people who don't want to play social security taxes because they're not on social security. The game has to at least attempt balance or even your fluffhammer funtime kindergarten games will start sucking.

I have to agree with Broken Loose on this one. Tyranids are pure garbage. Even Nidzilla, the best build we have, isn't really all that strong in the grand scheme of things. Too many of the units in the codex are simply unusable, and everything is horrendously overcosted. It's amazing how badly 5th edition rules dismantled the bugs.

Yeah, I found the Nids a massive disappointment. I was growing bored of having only a couple of viable units and a single viable list with the Sisters, so I looked at Nids. They had so many interesting-looking units and so much customisation that I drooled all over the floor. I bought an army, painted it up, played a few games. Within a week I made a startling revelation: they have less viable units than the Sisters, and only a single, barely-viable list, which still royally sucks. I picked them up hoping for an breath of fresh air, but soon went back to the `variety' of Mech Sisters. As much as I scream about the Third Edition armies needing an update, I will wholeheartedly agree that Nids need it more than some of them. I have my fears that it will be a lack-lustre book, but I am positive that we will be able to field a wider variety of units and lists than we currently can. I am fairly confident we will get a better book than we currently have.

I'm torn. On one side, I'd like to see tyranids buffed. On another, I'd like it if not every single army in the game completely outclassed the IG by a staggering margin.

Wow, I just don't know what to say. I use all units (barring biovores and gargoyles) that everyone says sucks to great effect.

I know my opponents don't suck so I guess they don't suck all that bad.

I don't argue that hormogaunts suck, it's why I run stealers instead but to say 90% of the 'dex is garbage is just knee-jerks and false presumption.

Not all of us play tournaments. So right now there isn't a "crutch" army list to use in tournaments. Boo-fething-hoo, I don't really care. To the tournament crowd there will never BE balance in a codex ever. There will always be ONE build that forum goers shape and pound out until it's the ideal optimum.

I play a "balanced", ie mixed nid army right now and I use all the units I described as being "ideal" to how I play. If they don't work for you it doesn't mean the codex is garbage. Against a NON-mech Marine army (yes, they do exist you know outside tournaments) my 'Nids win more than they lose.

I'll reiterate. Hormogaunts are garbage I'll admit but one unit that is clearly garbage does not make for a garbage codex. I explained how I use the other units and how to NOT use them. Carni's are mean with I2 so if you run them in the heavy slot at I1 than pack up your army and sell it to me because you clearly have generalship issues.

I use Calgar for my Marine Hq in games over 2k, yet the ONLY viable list, according to the interwebs is Vulkan melta spam, to which I call bs on but it will fall on deaf ears I'm afraid because only tournaments matter for some reason.

Fateweaver wrote:

I don't do tournaments but I'd hardly say the 'nids are that bad and I do play against competent players in my group. Yep, I win more than I lose, guess that really proves that 'nids suck.

Fateweaver wrote:
I know my opponents don't suck so I guess they don't suck all that bad.

All things being equal, (meaning you use the same codex as everyone else) the only variable is the quality of your opponents.

For friendly, non tournament games nids are just fine the way they are.

Anyone saying otherwise plays friendly games against people using tournie lists or doesn't know how to play 'nids...

Fateweaver wrote:For friendly, non tournament games nids are just fine the way they are.

Anyone saying otherwise plays friendly games against people using tournie lists or doesn't know how to play 'nids...

The Quoted post is brought to you by the Dakka Casual Players Mafia

One of the top three players in local tournaments is non-zilla 'Nids. I myself restarted 'Nids recently, non-zilla, and am currently sitting on 5 wins, 2 ties, 0 losses. Half of those are from a tournament.

Are 'Nids the best army around? No, but they're hardly the laughing stock of 40k. That job is reserved for Necrons.

Fateweaver wrote:For friendly, non tournament games nids are just fine the way they are.

Anyone saying otherwise plays friendly games against people using tournie lists or doesn't know how to play 'nids...

No, I have used them in Friendlies. They still stink. Even the most casual of casual gamers I have played against have gone `Oh, so I just kill the synapse creatures?', turned their Dark Reapers, etc onto the Warriors/etc and finished them off in a turn or two. I now have no scoring units, a bunch of useless Gaunts, and not enough Carnifeci to hope to table them. Gaunts are too useless, Lictors are a joke, and Biovores just do not compete with Carnifeci (but, yes, if Carnifeci were less powerful, Biovores would not look as bad as they do). The Fast Attack options are just a joke.

Hmm, I have no less than 6 syanpse creatures in 2500 pts and I never have snyapse issues. Although I do only run 2 broods of guants, 1 spine and 1 hormo and yes the horms do disappoint but synapse has never been an issue.

If I can replace the gaunts with more stealers before the new codex is out I'll drop synapse on the zoants to make them a little cheaper. Maybe give each of them the Horror so my opponents will have a choice of shooting at them and trying to go through a 2+ save/4++ for being screened by my tyrant and his guard or assaulting them which being within 4 models with Scream is going to mean needing 4's on a Morale roll or standing there in front of some very pissed off 'nids.

Not saying the codex is NOT weaker than the current crop; I'm saying it's not absolute garbage, I reserve that for the 3.5 CSM 'dex.

Flame me for saying that about the old CSM 'dex, someone will. LOL

Something I always thought was cool, and was surprised when they came up with Rending instead, was the idea that a brood of Tyranids would be capable of taking down vehicles like a Talos's Claws rule where the number of hits could translate into bonuses for a single hit against the vehicle. Rending, like the Heavy Close Combat Weapon, seems to me to be a kludge, whereas there was something right about how the Talos affected vehicles, particularly for swarms.

So it's a bit of a wish-list item, but I think it would be cool if a brood of Tyranids could sacrifice successful hits on an enemy model for additional points of S on a hit to represent the swarm tearing its victims apart in a well-co-ordinated display of violence.

For example, suppose a brood of Termagants gets thirty attacks, and hits with fifteen against a Land Raider. The brood could get one automatic penetrating hit (S3+14), or two hits, one at S9 and the other at S10 (S3+6 & S3+7).

Make this an effect of having the brood within Synapse, and suddenly those little bugs can pull down tanks.

PS: I agree with Fateweaver about the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine Codex: the 4th edition one got me back in the hobby.

Fateweaver, if you stopped posting about your opinion of the Nids' power level you'd annoy us a bit less which would improve your image. You're not going to convince us, especially when you pointed out that you're not a serious player AND you skipped over my pointing out why everything else in the codex was garbage.

I know for a fact that the next codex could be the same as the current codex but with doubled point costs and people like you would still play the army (and defend it in the same way). You appear to be immune to logic, and thus this conversation isn't appropriate for you.

So what, Fateweaver isn't entitled to his opinion because a loudmouth like you says so?

He's entitled to his opinion, but he's perpetuating an argument without actually contributing to it.

Do you always refer to yourselves in the plural Broken?

Broken Loose wrote:Fateweaver, if you stopped posting about your opinion of the Nids' power level you'd annoy us a bit less which would improve your image. You're not going to convince us, especially when you pointed out that you're not a serious player AND you skipped over my pointing out why everything else in the codex was garbage.

How about this for you then. I've won 6 Gladiator tournaments including the Adepticon Gladiator. I've won the Adepticon Team event and finished in the top 5 two other times. I've also won the Ard Boyz Semin-finals twice. I think that qualifies me as a serious tournament player. Yes there are some bad units in the Nid Dex, as is the case in every codex. The current nid codex can produce a very competitive tournament list. There is no doubt about that. The BOLS tourney winner, over 7 tournament games to remove luck, was a standard Tyranid list. This list included three units of 20 Hormagaunts and they worked very well over 7 games.

Serious tournament players can make almost every codex a serious tournament list.

DarthDiggler wrote:How about this for you then. I've won 6 Gladiator tournaments including the Adepticon Gladiator. I've won the Adepticon Team event and finished in the top 5 two other times. I've also won the Ard Boyz Semin-finals twice. I think that qualifies me as a serious tournament player. Yes there are some bad units in the Nid Dex, as is the case in every codex. The current nid codex can produce a very competitive tournament list. There is no doubt about that. The BOLS tourney winner, over 7 tournament games to remove luck, was a standard Tyranid list. This list included three units of 20 Hormagaunts and they worked very well over 7 games.

Serious tournament players can make almost every codex a serious tournament list.

Okay, I'll bite. Post your list.


Oh, on the BoLS tourney winner, let's look at who he fought over those 7 rounds, based off his batreps:
Game 1: Footslogging marines with landspeeders.
Game 2: Footslogging Berserkers and 2 defilers. No daemon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nothing.
Game 3: Abbadon, a single daemon prince, and more footslogging Berserkers.
Game 4: A really good Imperial Guard list that kicked his ass 14 ways to Thursday. During the fight, "Goat boy had come over and checked on the game and we had a small talk about power lists vs. fun lists." If I was at a tournament and the tournament organizer came over to talk about how fluffy my list was, I'd start worrying.
Game 5: Army 1 but with Vulkan. "Then it happened, my zoie actually shot something with warp blast and blew it up!" If you went 5 games in a tournament without blowing up an enemy vehicle using a footslogging army and STILL managed to nab first place, doublecheck to make sure you're not playing at Disney World.
Game 6: More Salamanders. "The only armor he had was a Land Raider Redeemer and two Iron clads, plus drop pods."
Game 7: Fighting the IG guy again but this time the IG player took it easier on him and he rolled better.


I made it to Semis at 'Ard Boyz and threw my final so my opponent could attempt to place 3rd (whoever won would have been in the runnings for 3rd, and he's a good friend of mine). I fought in round 1 twice for fun. Here are my opponents:
Round 1, Day 1:
Game 1: Mechanized Dark Eldar.
Game 2: Mechanized Orks and Kommandos with Nob Bikerz and Kanz.
Game 3: Mechanized Plague Marines, 2 Lash Princes, 9 Oblits.

Round 1, Day 2:
Game 1: Elfzilla.
Game 2: Mechanized Eldar.
Game 3: Nidzilla.

Round 2:
Game 1: Mechanized Eldar.
Game 2: Mechanized Orks and Kommandos with Loota spam.
Game 3: Mechanized Orks and Kommandos with Nob Bikerz and Kanz.


So, the winner at the BoLSCon had a bad Tyranid list, the 2nd place guy had a bad Ork list, and the rest of the tournament was footslogging marines. Luck be damned.

BoLS Frontpage wrote:I think their success has a lot more to say about the quality of their players than the perceived strength of the armies.

In other words, with the exception of the IG player, everybody at the tournament sucked. The BoLSCon argument of non-Zilla Tyranid lists being "tournament quality" doesn't hold any water-- especially when the tourney organizer was going around scrutinizing the power levels of the players' lists.

Aduro wrote:Do you always refer to yourselves in the plural Broken?

I'd say the plural is for everyone who has more or less given up on participating in threads like these because of posters like Fateweaver who go "la la la la everything is fine" and more or less disregard any proof that the codex is mostly garbage at the moment. So I'd say the plural works just fine!

Nice personal attack. I'm not immune to logic. You are sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalalalala" like some little kid that doesn't want to listen.

I posted what units I use and how I use them and I did say that I also feel that hormogaunts suck. I can make ALL of the units I use in my army work and do what they want. Just because they are not tournament optimized does not make them suck.

I'm arguing with people saying that Tyranids are garbage. I can make them work and win with suboptimal units against competent opponents. Not every goddamn Marine army is 'Mech, not every IG list is 9 Ven, not every ork army is 'Nob biker heavy. Sheesh, come down off your high horse Broken and realize just because a codex can't win a tournament more than it loses doesn't make the codex bad. It's the goddamn tournament, I'm better than you because I'm hardcore, players that ruin this game. Except for that persons own self-inflated ego nobody cares if a person can stomp and get a massacre every game in a tournament involving plastic toy soldiers.

Compete in the Olympic games and win the Gold and then I'll be impressed. Otherwise your opinion on what is good or bad in a codex has no more weight than mine.

Darth did say "standard" Tyranid list. Standard, contrary to interweb belief, does not automatically mean suboptimal. WAAC lists are the minority, not the means, to the relevance of a good codex.

I'd say the plural is for everyone who has more or less given up on participating in threads like these because of posters like Fateweaver who go "la la la la everything is fine" and more or less disregard any proof that the codex is mostly garbage at the moment. So I'd say the plural works just fine!

Wow, way to not pay any attention to what I post and just post your own opinion. In a NON-tournament setting against armies that ARE NOT optimized for tournaments (you know, the imaginary make believe armies that most tournament players can't conceive exist outside of tournaments) Tyranids do just fine, in fact they are better than fine. I take Lictors and Broodlords and Genestealers and Warriors and Raveners. I have a fluffy army and a themed army and I use the "garbage" units and I still win more than I lose. I'm not saying the codex is fine for tournaments but a codex should not be judged on how it does in something that constitutes maybe 20% of the hobby.

As I said in the post before yours. Thinking someone who plays a "fun" army using suboptimal lists as being someone immune to logic and common sense is a personal attack and is a troll. A codex is only garbage if it cannot win at all, even in friendly games against friendly, themed or fluffly lists. I merely pointed out that while some units are garbabe, with which I do happen to agree hormogaunts fall into that category, the codex as a whole is not garbage. If it was it wouldn't even be possible to win friendly games and I know 1'000s of 'Nid players who don't do tournaments that would laugh in your face or spit in your eyes (or both) and tell you to stick a sock in it.

@fate: I'm not at all sure what the Olympics has to do with Warhammer, anymoreso than actual marksmanship or running ability.

I gather it's something to do with competition. I think he's suggesting that there's an element of real competition in the Olympics that makes claims of being a competitive Warhammer player seem somewhat ridiculous.

John,

It's addressing the fact that some players feel that because they play competitively a game involving plastic models that their opinion on a codex should hold more weight and relevance than someone like me who doesn't do tournaments.

Winning Olympic Gold is far more impressive to more people than winning a game of plastic toy soldiers, hence why I said if he wins Olympic Gold I'll applaud for him and grant him recognition. Until such time comes, if ever, he and his opinions on the codex hold no more bearing than someone who feels the codex is not total garbage.

Edited in response to Nurglitch.

Well, my opinion is that most WAAC lists play themselves or at the very least could be played by MJ's pet chimpanzee but I've been shot down and told it takes skill to dual lash opposing units into the open every turn and drop 3 or more plasma blasts onto that unit using the 9 oblits found in such list. Sounds fairly easy to me to achieve but I don't do tournaments so I'll be told I'm just blowing smoke out my ass.

I'm not against a new Tyranid codex. I look forward to the new models that will come with it more than the rules themselves. I just don't feel the current one is as bad as some claim it is and I have posted why I feel that way. I even start my posts with something to the effect of "this is how I feel" or "in my opinion." If people with differing opinions feel the need to flame me to raise post count or inflate their ego then nothing I say will matter to them. I am not the one with the "finger in ear" syndrome, some of the accusers should look in the mirror to see who's really doing it.

Broken Loose wrote:[

Okay, I'll bite. Post your list.

Game 7: Fighting the IG guy again but this time the IG player took it easier on him and he rolled better.


I made it to Semis at 'Ard Boyz and threw my final so my opponent could attempt to place 3rd (whoever won would have been in the runnings for 3rd, and he's a good friend of mine). I fought in round 1 twice for fun. Here are my opponents:

First I rarely post lists and almost never a good list. That's for people who need an ego boost because that can't win anything outside the 15 year old Saturday tourney at the GW shop. Next, I like how you say the IG took it easy. Last round of a two day tourney and after all that time invested he probably just said 'screw it! I'll charge with my veterans.'. I don't think so. Finally it is easy to get to a Semi-final, it is another thing to win it, which you couldn't do. It sounds convenient to say you threw the last round game. We've heard that before from someone in Utah. What makes it worse for you is that it shows a lack of character on your part and an ability to cheat other tournament players for your own justification.

You threw the last round of the Ard Boyz for a friend? You tried to team up and rig the tournament so someone, who would be deserving to go to Chicago, would be denied by your actions. This has to be the very worst act of Unsportsmanship and dirty underhanded play I have ever heard of. At least when you cheat to someones face they have the opportunity to call you on it, but what you did was cheat someone else out of their rightful finish and possible chance to go to the Ard Boyz final behind their back. You might as well have been running the tournament and changed the scores in the computer.

If you want to scream to the heavens that you are unable to get a Tyranid army to work, then go right ahead. There is no need for me to argue with your lack of army list building or tactics on the tabletop, you admit you stink at it and can't get it done with the Bugs. Apparently there are other people who play this game who can get them to work. It is not my job to educate you, you go figure it out for yourself. I would suggest getting rid of your defeatest attitude to begin with and instead of trying to tear down other posters comments you should try to listen and learn.

Broken Loose wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:How about this for you then. I've won 6 Gladiator tournaments including the Adepticon Gladiator. I've won the Adepticon Team event and finished in the top 5 two other times. I've also won the Ard Boyz Semin-finals twice. I think that qualifies me as a serious tournament player. Yes there are some bad units in the Nid Dex, as is the case in every codex. The current nid codex can produce a very competitive tournament list. There is no doubt about that. The BOLS tourney winner, over 7 tournament games to remove luck, was a standard Tyranid list. This list included three units of 20 Hormagaunts and they worked very well over 7 games.

Serious tournament players can make almost every codex a serious tournament list.

Okay, I'll bite. Post your list.


Oh, on the BoLS tourney winner, let's look at who he fought over those 7 rounds, based off his batreps:
Game 1: Footslogging marines with landspeeders.
Game 2: Footslogging Berserkers and 2 defilers. No daemon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nothing.
Game 3: Abbadon, a single daemon prince, and more footslogging Berserkers.
Game 4: A really good Imperial Guard list that kicked his ass 14 ways to Thursday. During the fight, "Goat boy had come over and checked on the game and we had a small talk about power lists vs. fun lists." If I was at a tournament and the tournament organizer came over to talk about how fluffy my list was, I'd start worrying.
Game 5: Army 1 but with Vulkan. "Then it happened, my zoie actually shot something with warp blast and blew it up!" If you went 5 games in a tournament without blowing up an enemy vehicle using a footslogging army and STILL managed to nab first place, doublecheck to make sure you're not playing at Disney World.
Game 6: More Salamanders. "The only armor he had was a Land Raider Redeemer and two Iron clads, plus drop pods."
Game 7: Fighting the IG guy again but this time the IG player took it easier on him and he rolled better.

BoLS Frontpage wrote:I think their success has a lot more to say about the quality of their players than the perceived strength of the armies.

In other words, with the exception of the IG player, everybody at the tournament sucked. The BoLSCon argument of non-Zilla Tyranid lists being "tournament quality" doesn't hold any water-- especially when the tourney organizer was going around scrutinizing the power levels of the players' lists.

I hope you are being sarcastic on that last bit, as I was playing on the 2nd place table on game 6 out of 7 with my Salamander Marines... Id have to say his army wasnt all that (I should know I play nids), but he did play them differently then I am used to seeing.

That and the fact I rolled 11 to try to assault a Tyrant with the Horror with my Vulcan and we FUBARED the rules in assault that caused my 2 ironclads to die to a group of hormagaunts and a single carnifex.

First I rarely post lists and almost never a good list. That's for people who need an ego boost because that can't win anything outside the 15 year old Saturday tourney at the GW shop.

Ok, the rest of your post about how cheating and throwing games is bs - I agree.

But this? What? Posting good lists is for people who need their ego fed?

Whaaaaaaaaaat? So you should only post bad lists?

... I'm honestly completely stunned by the (lack of?) logic behind this. What the hell is wrong with good list building? It's like saying feth trying to figure out a good opening for chess, I like making zig-zag patterns with my pawns -_- (that was my pro-strat at age 5, offensive pawn line, no can defend!!).

Okay, carry on, just needed to rant about this.

number9dream wrote:

First I rarely post lists and almost never a good list. That's for people who need an ego boost because that can't win anything outside the 15 year old Saturday tourney at the GW shop.

Ok, the rest of your post about how cheating and throwing games is bs - I agree.

But this? What? Posting good lists is for people who need their ego fed?

Whaaaaaaaaaat? So you should only post bad lists?

... I'm honestly completely stunned by the (lack of?) logic behind this. What the hell is wrong with good list building? It's like saying feth trying to figure out a good opening for chess, I like making zig-zag patterns with my pawns -_- (that was my pro-strat at age 5, offensive pawn line, no can defend!!).

Okay, carry on, just needed to rant about this.

I just don't want other players to see everything in my army until I am done playing that army. It's like opening football practice to the other teams to see. Call it superstition, call it paranoia, call it smart list building. I'll give you my list before we play, but I don't want to let someone see a rundown of what I'm bringing weeks in advance.

That is a much better reason, I think. I don't have a problem with you not wanting to post your list (although it does limit discussion somewhat, but it's fair) =]

It's addressing the fact that some players feel that because they play competitively a game involving plastic models that their opinion on a codex should hold more weight and relevance than someone like me who doesn't do tournaments

I don't think that is the point. The point is to bring a tourney perspective on Tyranid units and their effectiveness. Tournaments that are run as "hardcore" or otherwise for winning and not for fun are great for pointing out the limitations and inequalities present in a codex, because spread over so many tournaments and games, the relative skill of the players becomes more of a constant and the unit performance is allowed to be seen as is. In this light the many important arguments against Tyranid units have been made, again and again, and one guy winning a tourney with a very nicely modeled Tyranid army doesn't make these limitations cease to exist. All respect to him, and I like the army. But it doesn't make the points made against the Tyranid codex invalid.

Might sound all good and well to you but me being called an illogical child who will not listen is not needed. My reasons for the codex not being a steaming pile of gak are as valid as the reasons given that it is. 2 different perspectives, 2 different opinions. Neither one wrong.

It irritates me that winning with a codex that is not uber OTT in a tournament is seen as a fluke or just luck regardless of opponents or player skill. I counter with the argument that I'd rather win through luck or skill than win by using a seriously broken power to manipulate my opponents army in such a way he cannot counter it.

I would love it if GW would stop promoting and worrying about tournaments and build codeciies for fun. 2nd edition was the "fun" edition; ever since it's no longer about fun, it's about what works best.

If min-maxing and stomping the crap out of an opponent because he brings an army that can't counter lash (nids, cron, any non-mech army) is someones idea of fun than I really feel sorry for those people who get their rocks off in that manner.

I see the same attitude in 40k as I did years ago in paintball. I quit the latter because in order to play I would have had to play in tournaments and that's not what appeals to me.

So I say it for a 3rd time. I have nothing against a new 'dex for 'Nids as with a new 'dex comes new models, which to me are AS important as the rules. I AGREE that hormogaunts suck for the points, what I DISAGREE on is that the codex as a WHOLE is garbage. I'm not going to post a win-loss record as that's just a measure of epeen IMO but I'll say I have won more than I have lost, against people who have a more tactically sound mind than me. No one in my group plays WAAC lists so in the grand scheme of things IN MY GROUP the codex is a good, balanced codex.

My thinking this and experiencing this is no way LESS relevant than someone who only plays 40k in tournaments and who only wants a better codex to raise the power bar. Tournament players are the minority; not the majority. Make the codeciies fun to play in a FRIENDLY game first, even if the units aren't exactly the most powerful or game breaking. If the WAAC players figure out the game winning army (and they will as that is the only thing that fuels there existence is mathhammering a codex until not a single equation is missed) than so be it. I just don't want them telling me that everything else is garbage and the codex as a whole sucks. I swear a nuclear physicist probably uses math less than your average 40k tournament player in any given month. It's only when someone tells me that a codex sucks because it cannot place first in 'ard boyz is when I get frazzled and annoyed. To that person Lictors suck, for me they do what I want them to and they fit the theme of my army.

So many complaints about lack of fluff in codeciies. From what I'm gathering nobody gives a damn about the fluff anyway, they only care that X unit is so many points and can majority of the time beat up Y unit so Y unit sucks compared to X unit even if Y unit has cooler rules or fluff.

I wonder what all this argument will solve? GW is going to release whatever codex they want next no argument on the internets will change that.

Just be glad we aren't getting another color of space marine next.

As long as you had sportsmanship scoring (And the way people use that for scoring comp), the fact that a nid list won BolsCon is meaningless, as that affected the strength and type of armies that he would have played against.

skyth wrote:As long as you had sportsmanship scoring (And the way people use that for scoring comp), the fact that a nid list won BolsCon is meaningless, as that affected the strength and type of armies that he would have played against.

Not sure how that works. You are saying that those lists he played against were chosen because the WAAC lists would have gotten poor scores resulting in him matching up against what he/she did?

Sounds to me like you are saying he wouldn't have had a prayer in hell against the typical WAAC list.

Or am I way off base?

Linkdead wrote:Just be glad we aren't getting another color of space marine next.

But... We are getting another color of space marine next.

But hopefully we won't see any more of that until after the armies that actually need a new codex get attention.

With Grey Knights, Blood Angels and Black Templars all supposedly currently in development, I think we have plenty more Marines coming in the near future. Not to mention that they plan to split Chaos Space Marines into three (Renegades, Daemons and Legions) or more (multiple Legions books) separate Codices this edition.

Frankly, the argument here is going nowhere. Neither side cares what the other has to say, so it would be best to either drop the whole topic before the thread gets locked. Some of us think that the book is terrible; others believe it is fine. No one is arguing that it is awesome in a tournament environment, so just drop that line altogether --- both sides --- and the only real debate is to the quality of the majority of units in the book (notably dropping Hormagaunts... we get the idea already, stop reiterating that we all agree they are terrible!!) in a casual setting. Hardcore tournament players are unlikely to see eye to eye with the most casual of players no matter what either side does, so neither side should bother trying. Even those of us in the middle are completely dismissing the `arguments' in this thread. We get the idea, every last poster in this thread is a complete tool: end of story!

(Yes, I do appreciate the irony in my last statement: it was intentional).

I hope they make Tyranids "worse", rather than "better" in the upcoming codex. Really I just want them to add more character to the army. Winning a game of toy soldiers is so much more rewarding when you don't feel like your win was cheaply derived from rule exploitations and/or the product of "we need these models to sell so lets give them godly stats".

Games Workshop will not do that, though. I don't see why anyone is worried; their number one priority in every event is to make money, in the short term or in the long term. Either way, releasing models that people will want is mostly how it's done, and other than "super cool sculpts", which cost a pretty penny for GW itself, they can simply improve the rules/stats for already existing product so they sell more.

Some very obvious observations:
-Expect much better/different Biovores & Spore Mines
-Same for Raveners
-I wouldn't expect as much the same for Lictors, just because they have enough "cool factor" to capture the hearts of many little ones new to the hobby despite how well they perform on the table top. Hell, they make me giddy too.
-Most Tyranid players have more than enough Hive Tyrants, and, especially, Carnifexes. I rather doubt the stats for either of these units will improve much at all, and may actually get worse, simply because they themselves are point sinks, and if you decide not to play said point sinks, well, that's many more GW models you're buying to fill the gap.


To the gentleman who brought the Olympics into this: I do not think that point is necessary. Even if a given person does not have much experience in the 40k Tournament Scene, they can still express a valuable opinion, legitimate concerns, and interesting points, such as you have done yourself. I have no experience in the Olympics, does this mean you will much lessen the value you place on my words when speaking of tournaments of various nature?

Not what I was getting at. I was stating that SOME posters feel their opinion on a codex holds more weight BECAUSE they play in a tournament vs playing for fun.

What they feel is right or wrong has nothing to do with tournament experience, it has to do with the fact that all the posters who have called me illogical strike me as WAAC players and therefore there logic for saying the codex is garbage is not relevant to me as I and other casual gamers have pointed out the codex does fine in a non-competitive nature.

I enjoy winning but I don't need an updated codex to do it and I don't need people who play competitively telling me that they are right and I am wrong but sadly that is the vibe I get in any forum in any thread dealing with tactics or codex release threads.

Over on Warseer people are already picking apart the SW codex as far as tournament competitiveness goes and for feth sakes it's not even out for another month. It's no damn wonder GW has all but stopped revealing anything new (and yes, I for one am glad they have).

Fateweaver wrote:but sadly that is the vibe I get in any forum in any thread dealing with tactics or codex release threads.

You're going to alienate a lot of fellow forum members with comments like that... just because a person plays competitively does not mean he or she is your enemy, especially in an online forum designed for constructive conversation (well, usually hehe).

I agree with your point, now that I understand it better. But their opinion certainly still holds weight, as does yours. There is no need to devalue each other's opinions...

I didn't say a tournament WAAC players opinion holds LESS weight, I said it doesn't hold any MORE weight than a casual gamers.

Winning is good and I wouldn't mind seeing some new rules for most of the 'nid codex. Not because they need them but because new rules means new ways of making an army, new tactics and new ways to foil your opponent. If some units end up OP the WAAC'ers (hehe) will find it; if it's garbage they will find it. I, on the other hand, do not care if a Lictor for 80 pts can kill 80pts worth Spezz Mahrines 50/50. I love the model, I love the fluff behind it and if it becomes better in the new codex than it's a bonus for me; if it remains as worthless (based on popular opinion) it will STILL remain in my army for the reasons I mentioned.

All my armies I ever owned were based on theme or model looks, not rules or effectiveness. I don't spend hours mathhammering units to see what works best. If I'm going to spend 100's of hours a month tweaking the list using numbers I'll become an accountant and at least get paid for pushing buttons on a calculator and risking carpal tunnel pushing a pen all day.

So yeah, bring on the next codex. Not because 'nids NEED it but because I want the new models that will surely come with it.

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:I hope they make Tyranids "worse", rather than "better" in the upcoming codex.

The only way they could do that would be to make it so genestealers can't score.

Broken Loose wrote:

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:I hope they make Tyranids "worse", rather than "better" in the upcoming codex.

The only way they could do that would be to make it so genestealers can't score.

Wow, I so won't even touch that quote as I'll probably get warned or flamed (or both).

Fateweaver wrote:Wow, I so won't even touch that quote as I'll probably get warned or flamed (or both).

It's quite true and not sarcastic. With the advent of "Troops only" 5th edition scoring, that leaves us with:

Gaunts, who cannot score unless they are in Synapse range or pass a Ld5 test.
Hormagaunts, who cannot score unless they are in Synapse range or pass a Ld5 test.
Rippers, who cannot score on account of being Mindless and also on account of being swarms.
Genestealers, who function normally.

In most cases, the phrase "Ld5 test" means that you lost combat by about 3-5 wounds and you're about to break. In fact, you only have a 27.8% chance of succeeding that roll. In other words, half of our troops score only 27.8% of the time without outside help.

Secondly, Synapse range requires warriors, zoanthropes, or hive tyrants to be within 12 inches of them at the end of the game. Warriors are T4 with at most a 4+ armor save (which is absolutely terrible for an HQ, even Ork HQs get invulnerables or FNP). Zoanthropes are easy to single out because they're single-model units that aren't ICs (so they can't spread wounds). Tyrants suffer from a lack of invulnerable saves (6+ does not count under any circumstances), a lack of cover saves (unless you have guards), and a severe case of bullet magnetism (being the deadliest models on the field more often than not)... a tyrant will usually be the first targetted model on your side if the enemy has a choice.

So, 3 out of our 4 troops can't score, leaving us on par with Necrons (having 1 scoring unit in the codex). Of course, Necrons have that whole 3+ armor and 4+ WBB thing, so if they sit on an objective they'll actually hold it instead of crumpling to bolters or heavy bolters. Units that actually have higher odds of passing saves than failing them? Fancy that! I know they're rather common in non-xenos armies, but it's a bit of a pain to have to accept bolter bait as our only choice of capturing objectives.

4th edition was fantastic in this case because that limitation was removed. When fexes could hold objectives, Nidzilla was the most annoying army in the game. Even if they were quite fragile considering their price, warriors could hold down a fort for 6 turns while things went to hell around them. That's already gone, that job is already done. All we have left are genestealers.

@BL: It's not so bad, in that those units still contest down to the last model. If you've got a Fex and he's got a Trooper on the Objective, nobody scores it.

I'd expect Nids to get quite a bit cheaper in line with their 5E+ usefulness, similar to Orks.

I score with gaunts plenty fine. Have never had a problem not having enough synapse.

Well, this thread certainly went downhill.

Indeed.

I've been popping corn on the flames mmm pop corn

I brought gram crackers, Hershey's Chocolate, and marshmallows. Somebody find us some sticks!

So, in short, no real rumors, just a 20-page off-topic thread?

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:So, in short, no real rumors, just a 20-page off-topic thread?

pretty much . . . want some pop corn?

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:So, in short, no real rumors, just a 20-page off-topic thread?

Did you read the thread? There are geniune rumors in here.

I suggest to shut down this thread.
Some contributions were quite interesting if it were a thread about the codex update.

Or we could just have those people who went way off topic start a new thread that's actually about what they're talking about. I know it's a radical idea but it just might work.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm torn. On one side, I'd like to see tyranids buffed. On another, I'd like it if not every single army in the game completely outclassed the IG by a staggering margin.

You are complaining about... IG? The NEW IG? One of the strongest books in 40k?

Really?

Maybe it's not number ONE, but I'm pretty sure it's not outclassed by anything.

FlammingGaunt wrote:Or we could just have those people who went way off topic start a new thread that's actually about what they're talking about. I know it's a radical idea but it just might work.

Sounds too radical.
Some seem to be more interested speculations than in proposing a new codex.

number9dream wrote:You are complaining about... IG? The NEW IG? One of the strongest books in 40k?

Really?

Maybe it's not number ONE, but I'm pretty sure it's not outclassed by anything.

It wouldn't be a Dakka thread if somebody didn't complain about IG being underpowered.

RustyKnight wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:So, in short, no real rumors, just a 20-page off-topic thread?

Did you read the thread? There are geniune rumors in here.

Not only that, but the Tyranid Battleforce is no longer available from GW. That's a good sign of am impending codex.

puma713 wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:So, in short, no real rumors, just a 20-page off-topic thread?

Did you read the thread? There are geniune rumors in here.

Not only that, but the Tyranid Battleforce is no longer available from GW. That's a good sign of am impending codex.

That sounds like a good reason not to shut down this thread.

It could just be a repackaging. When some of the Dark Eldar kits went unavailable some people thought that it meant the Dark Eldar were coming back. All that happened was they started selling the old wyches and stuff in newer boxes.

But there is already a large mountain of evidence that the Tyranids are coming out so...

Well, the theory is that plastic gargoyles are coming out (as been the plan "an edition or two down the line" since Andy Chambers' 3rd edition redesign), and since all the newer battleforces have HS choices replaced with FA choices, the Nid battleforce as we know it may actually be gone for good.

It's a little early to pull the battleforce and codex, but only by a month or two.

They must not want people to be able to capitalize on the fairly good deal that the current battleforce gives when they can get people to spend more for less when the newer one comes out.

Railguns wrote:

But there is already a large mountain of evidence that the Tyranids are coming out so...

Would you mind summarizing that mountain of evidence for me? So I don't have to read 20 pages of speculation? Eldar and 'Nids are my two choice armies (although I do play IG's right now) and I'd love to see them revived with new vigor.

A big part of the speculation not to long ago was the reveal of Trygon models that didn't match the forgeworld production models in the armies of Phil Kelly and the guy from Hive Fleet Moloch. Moloch has a bit of clout with the developers as far as Tyranids go(as seen by the current codex showing of some of his models) and Phil Kelly is a big Tyranid enthusiast in the studio. Pictures of these things came out at about the same time that it was rumoured that a plastic Trygon was coming. Considering the obviously different models it seemed all but confirmed.

Yay!

More codexs getting re-done while DE get told to move over again!

Railguns wrote:A big part of the speculation not to long ago was the reveal of Trygon models that didn't match the forgeworld production models in the armies of Phil Kelly and the guy from Hive Fleet Moloch. Moloch has a bit of clout with the developers as far as Tyranids go(as seen by the current codex showing of some of his models) and Phil Kelly is a big Tyranid enthusiast in the studio. Pictures of these things came out at about the same time that it was rumoured that a plastic Trygon was coming. Considering the obviously different models it seemed all but confirmed.

There's also an intriguing quote in WD356. In the "Let the Games Commence" section of the "Between a Rok and a Hard Place" article, about how "the good guys sportingly let", Phil Kelly use his Trygon, "throughout the campaign". (p54)

Just sayin'...

Vale,

JohnS