1099
Post by: Railguns
Although it MAY be released as a stand alone model like the Baneblade, it doesn't have as many applications for as many armies as the Baneblade does, and would only really sell to Tyranid players. Such a large investment is likely to accompany a larger release to maximize sales.
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Post by: mattv2099
Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:I hope they make Tyranids "worse", rather than "better"
The tyranid codex sucks. It would be a shame to make it even worse. If you can't deal with Monstrous Creatures then your armies are flawed.
19754
Post by: puma713
puma713 wrote:RustyKnight wrote:Crazy_Carnifex wrote:So, in short, no real rumors, just a 20-page off-topic thread?
Did you read the thread? There are geniune rumors in here.
Not only that, but the Tyranid Battleforce is no longer available from GW. That's a good sign of am impending codex.
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Railguns wrote:It could just be a repackaging. When some of the Dark Eldar kits went unavailable some people thought that it meant the Dark Eldar were coming back. All that happened was they started selling the old wyches and stuff in newer boxes.
And you can't order the 'Nid Codex anymore either. . .
1099
Post by: Railguns
Oh, I'm sure these are signs of the re-write coming. Just saying that taken by itself, some boxes becoming unavailable may just be a case of repackaging. It's the other factors that make a re-write likely.
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Post by: FlammingGaunt
I think that we wont see anything till SW and skaven come out.
10296
Post by: Casper
Railguns wrote:Although it MAY be released as a stand alone model like the Baneblade, it doesn't have as many applications for as many armies as the Baneblade does, and would only really sell to Tyranid players. Such a large investment is likely to accompany a larger release to maximize sales.
Not sure on that one. The Stompa doesn't have any application outside of the Ork lists, and GW made it. I wouldn't be supprised if GW does this with other armies as new books are released.
I agree with FlammingGaunt, we won't see anything relative until after Skaven come out.
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Post by: SargesSquad
Casper wrote:Railguns wrote:Although it MAY be released as a stand alone model like the Baneblade, it doesn't have as many applications for as many armies as the Baneblade does, and would only really sell to Tyranid players. Such a large investment is likely to accompany a larger release to maximize sales.
Not sure on that one. The Stompa doesn't have any application outside of the Ork lists, and GW made it.
That may be true, but the Stompa is one of GW's largest models that isn't FW, and the parts can be used to convert a ton of stuff, even if it isn't for Orks, like run-down outposts and such.
I think it would be a hot harder to try and use Tryong bits for anything other than Tyranid stuff...
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Post by: mikesorensonxx
SargesSquad wrote:Casper wrote:Railguns wrote:Although it MAY be released as a stand alone model like the Baneblade, it doesn't have as many applications for as many armies as the Baneblade does, and would only really sell to Tyranid players. Such a large investment is likely to accompany a larger release to maximize sales.
Not sure on that one. The Stompa doesn't have any application outside of the Ork lists, and GW made it.
That may be true, but the Stompa is one of GW's largest models that isn't FW, and the parts can be used to convert a ton of stuff, even if it isn't for Orks, like run-down outposts and such.
I think it would be a hot harder to try and use Tryong bits for anything other than Tyranid stuff...
True, but if I don't hear anything about a Hierodule kit I will probably buy at least 3 trygon kits so I can convert a scythed hirodule (already made a barbed one) and a Harridan, possibly even a Hierophant. I would like to hear more thoughts about units people would like to see for the 3 new ones beside the Trygon, like my warrior lord I mentioned about 16 pages ago. We could use a new HQ, Elite, Fast Attack. So what would they be? I would love to see a generic Red Terror as a FA choice.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
Miowhatitz Spore Sacs...you know, the str 5 Large Blast Bio Acid Spore Mines in IA...and keep it 3 per Fast Attack choice please.
17376
Post by: Zid
I really hope they rewrite nids, mostly because the armys become stale and boring for me. When I can run chaos that has a ton of shooty stuff, interesting rules, and fluff! Please GW, make Nids fun again!
19927
Post by: gribbly
I don't know how reliable this is but I was in my local Games Workshop the other day and a blue shirt told me the Tyranids were up for release in january or febuary
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I don't know how reliable this is but I was in my local Games Workshop the other day and a blue shirt told me the Tyranids were up for release in january or febuary
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Post by: Tim the Biovore
Tyranids can wait till 2010. Dark Eldar are supposedly going to be re-released this Feb.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
You're the first and only person I've heard say that.
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Post by: Archonate
Yes but that would be a pleasant surprise. GW never said Tyranids were coming after SWs. DE this February might be the release that they magically succeeded in keeping quiet, while everybody has been buzzing about Tyranids. Maybe they started the Tyranid rumors to keep everybody from suspecting the true Feb release...
Possible, but not probable. I don't credit GW with the ability to be so unpredictable.
19754
Post by: puma713
Archonate wrote:Yes but that would be a pleasant surprise. GW never said Tyranids were coming after SWs. DE this February might be the release that they magically succeeded in keeping quiet, while everybody has been buzzing about Tyranids. Maybe they started the Tyranid rumors to keep everybody from suspecting the true Feb release...
Possible, but not probable. I don't credit GW with the ability to be so unpredictable.
Especially not since they could be making money off of the Tyranid Codex and Battleforce right now, but they're not because they're no longer available.
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Post by: Archonate
Smoke and mirrors... It's all part of the ruse!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Archonate wrote:Yes but that would be a pleasant surprise. GW never said Tyranids were coming after SWs.
That's because they never say anything!!! They're the only company I know of that actively and intentionally keeps their customer base in the dark for no good reason.
19754
Post by: puma713
H.B.M.C. wrote:Archonate wrote:Yes but that would be a pleasant surprise. GW never said Tyranids were coming after SWs.
That's because they never say anything!!! They're the only company I know of that actively and intentionally keeps their customer base in the dark for no good reason.
No good reason? It's marketing, my man. These boards are abuzz with Space Wolf this and Space Wolf that. If all the info had been released on Space Wolves, the hype meter would not be peaking, I would think. At least not as much as it is. They're building suspense which, in turn, makes us want the product more.
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Post by: cygnnus
H.B.M.C. wrote:Archonate wrote:Yes but that would be a pleasant surprise. GW never said Tyranids were coming after SWs.
That's because they never say anything!!! They're the only company I know of that actively and intentionally keeps their customer base in the dark for no good reason.
Don't know if I agree 100% with that one H.B.M.C... I'd suggest the possibility that the sales of a current line plummet when rumors about the line being reworked get out since a re-work usually involves a) new sculpts and b) radically changed effectiveness of units.
Is that good "enough" of a reason? That I don't know, but I can certainly see a case for keeping sales of an existing line going for as long as possible... Especially if that lets you clear out back-stock by ceasing production of the older models early.
And FWIW, "actively and intentionally" keeping their customers in the dark seems to work a treat for Apple! Probably for the same reasons to boot, just replace "sculpts" with "design" and "effectiveness" with "functionality" above and you're good to go... 
Vale,
JohnS
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Post by: Farmer
Tim the Biovore wrote:Tyranids can wait till 2010. Dark Eldar are supposedly going to be re-released this Feb.
I've heard this aswell from GW staff,although it's possibly incorrect.
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Post by: Flashman
I never get anything of interest from a GW staffer. Don't get me wrong, they're pleasant enough, but any attempt to discuss releases three months hence is met with "Yes, that may happen, but have you seen this cool new thing?" To which I reply, "Yes, I saw that on the interweb weeks ago, now about Dark Eldar..."
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Post by: Railguns
Reading about everyone elses excursions to GW stores makes me glad I've never seen one.
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Post by: SargesSquad
Flashman wrote:I never get anything of interest from a GW staffer. Don't get me wrong, they're pleasant enough, but any attempt to discuss releases three months hence is met with "Yes, that may happen, but have you seen this cool new thing?" To which I reply, "Yes, I saw that on the interweb weeks ago, now about Dark Eldar..."
QFT. It pretty much goes down like this:
"I'm hearing a lot of rumours about new 'Nids and DE.... what's going on with them?"
Blue Shirt: ...*pauses*... Hey! Have you seen our new Space Wolves? You should get some!
"But I don't play Space Wolves. I play Dark Angels."
Blue Shirt: Even better! They hate each other! You should get some of the new Space Wolves!
"All I want is to know what's going on with 'Nids and DE!"
Blue Shirt: SPACE WOLVES!!!!!
19927
Post by: gribbly
I went to my local GW again yesterday and had a different member of staff a black shirt this time confirm tyranids are supposed to be out in jenuary or febuary.
5045
Post by: Evil Eli
Mattlov wrote:I see the following changes:
Biovores become more useful so people will be forced to buy more metal models. Number allowed will increase.
Same with Raveners.
Feeder Tendrils will SKYROCKET in cost.
Genestealers will get an expensive upgrade that will let them strike like power weapons to fit in with the new Space Hulk rules.
Gaunts will become cheaper. Not any better, just a slight points drop.
Hormagaunts are changed only by dropping the BS stat, and becoming a couple points cheaper. No other change, because you already have to buy them with regular Gaunts.
Did I mention minimum Gaunt brood size went up to 15?
Gargoyles can some amazing ability you will really want, maybe even need (like bio-plasma acts as a melta weapon) They will NOT become plastic.
Venom cannon will stay nerfed.
A flamer template weapon will be added. It will be useful in the same way that lighting yourself on fire is useful.
Carnifexes will lose something. Maybe a Wound, maybe a point of Toughness. They will not lose any points cost.
These are my predictions as a Tyranid player.
That actual made me laugh out loud. 
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Post by: wyomingfox
Mattlov wrote:I see the following changes:A flamer template weapon will be added. It will be useful in the same way that lighting yourself on fire is useful.
I Laughed out Loud  ...in fact, I am still laughing
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Post by: Railguns
It will probably overheat if it hits too many models (ie more than 3) and kill the user, exploding with a large blast template that is S5 ap4 that hits your own unit.
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Post by: Necros
I just heard from a pinkshirt that they're going to update warriors to have random weapons like the abilities chaos possessed and guard penal legion. They come with 1 set of scything talons, and before every game you roll a d6 for your other weapon
1 = spinefists
2 = devourer
3 = fleshborrer
4 = barbed strangler
5 = Venom cannon
6 = rending claws
all models must be wysiwyg too
19806
Post by: mockingbirduk
Tim the Biovore wrote:Tyranids can wait till 2010. Dark Eldar are supposedly going to be re-released this Feb.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely this coming February IS 2010?
181
Post by: gorgon
Necros wrote:I just heard from a pinkshirt that they're going to update warriors to have random weapons like the abilities chaos possessed and guard penal legion. They come with 1 set of scything talons, and before every game you roll a d6 for your other weapon
1 = wet cardboard tube
2 = comfy cushion
3 = fleshborrer
4 = barbed strangler
5 = Venom cannon
6 = rending claws
Fixed your typos.
Mutations! They're so random and craaaaaazy!
19956
Post by: apathetic
Railguns wrote:It will probably overheat if it hits too many models (ie more than 3) and kill the user, exploding with a large blast template that is S5 ap4 that hits your own unit.
As long as the flamer has at least a somewhat respectable stat line ie: ST3 AP - that's fine. Just run the suicide squad next to the target and have it blow up, autohitting S5 ap4 could be useful.
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Post by: FlammingGaunt
What random bio weapons Norn queens have the ability to pick and choose DNA randomness is chaos.
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Post by: The Dreadnote
FlammingGaunt wrote:What random bio weapons Norn queens have the ability to pick and choose DNA randomness is chaos.
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Post by: Archonate
I'm really curious about what these new units are going to be... But every time I try to think of what new Tyranid creature GW might think up, I keep recalling Iorek's Pan-Fo list;
Large units of Skittlybarbs, Fluxtangous with multi-glazebeam cannon, Thoraxbenders with extra dusters...
Any whispers on what the new Tyranid units really are?
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Post by: Railguns
Zerglings, Hydralisks, Banelings, and Overlords. Is this the right thread?
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
The Fenrisian Wolves give me hope that Hormagaunts might actually be reasonably costed. 6 points or something? Of course, even if they were 3 points apiece, they'd still get WTFPWNED by No Retreat and be pretty useless.
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Post by: Broken Loose
Power creep prevalent as it may be, no Tyranid player who played with prior codices has any faith in GW to increase the power of their army. This whole Anti-Nid Space Furries thing is just a further kick in the pants.
1099
Post by: Railguns
If I recall correctly, aren't Tyranids the only army that actually got weaker with each new book since their inception? As HBMC said earlier, GW seems to be an edition behind on the balancing curve and decided that since Nidzilla was dominating a year ago, Space Wolves needed a "Kill Carnifexes on a 3+" power with unlimited range and no targeting restrictions. I shudder to think how badly genestealers are going to get hammered with this book. Carnifexes will take a hit for sure, but I think it won't be as big as stealers, simply because GW loves to sell those Carnifex kits.
Edit: Oops, it's actually called the "Kill Carnifexes on a 2+ if they didn't take the Adrenal(I) upgrade, but if they did, it's still a 3+" power.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Certain aspects of the Tyranids will be 'overbalanced' by GW because, yes, GW is always an edition behind when it comes to fixing mistakes. We will see some units that did work in 4th Ed but now don't in 5th Ed be 'balanced' because of the power they had in the past (Genestealers being the prime candidate for this).
But 'Nids are also going to get a huge focus shift away from Nidzilla and towards hordes of Gaunts and Warriors. As much as I hate pendulum game design, this is one time I will welcome it if it comes to pass. Tyranids need to be about waves of lesser creatures backed up by small groups of bigger creatures and a few massive ones, not a giant clump of MC's with a few smaller ones only because they have to be there.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Railguns wrote:If I recall correctly, aren't Tyranids the only army that actually got weaker with each new book since their inception?
I don't think so. Nidzilla was very effective when it came out, and definitely set a new high-water mark in terms of Nid effectiveness.
8172
Post by: Auxellion
H.B.M.C. wrote:Certain aspects of the Tyranids will be overbalanced, yes, because GW is always an edition behind when it comes to fixing mistakes or simply forgets that they fixed them (5th Ed nerfed Rending, 'fixing' the problem... yet Assault Cannons in the Marine Codex that came straight after went up in cost to 'balance' their power... their power in 4th Ed that is).
But 'Nids are also going to get a huge focus shift away from Nidzilla and towards hordes of Gaunts and Warriors. As much as I hate pendulum game design, this is one time I will welcome it if it comes to pass. Tyranids need to be about waves of lesser creatures backed up by small groups of bigger creatures and a few massive ones, not a giant clump of MC's with a few smaller ones only because they have to be there.
I would still like the option to run a bunch of Carnifexs with a swarm of lesser creatures. I'm expecting the codex to have everything for dirt cheap compared to the last dex. The last few codexs seem to be quite a bit nastier then the other dozen or so armies. IG, Orks, and SM (Until SW came out). The codex creep is showing. Good chance that nids will end up being OP/Cheesy. Also GW will sell TONS of gaunts.
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Post by: grizgrin
MilkmanAl wrote:The Fenrisian Wolves give me hope that Hormagaunts might actually be reasonably costed...
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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Post by: Railguns
If most of my models suddenly get much, much better than I'm all for that pendulum to swing, as long as the 4 monstrous creatures I do used don't become useless.
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Post by: Aeon
Broods of Carnifex (whats the plural of carnifex; carnifi?) - that is all
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Post by: Orc Town Grot
If
we put ourselves in the game designer shoes, and understand the company perogatives: such as selling more models and disturbing the status quo:
Then they have to leave the carnifex more or less as it is, but remove the way you can bring in three as elites.
That kills nidzilla with half a line of army list text.
They can take a single point off the cost of gaunts and by that simplest change encourage a "more balanced" army list.
Then they can just do a few tweaks with warriors, ravenors, biovores so that these can all be viable options:
And look at creating a new range of leader types:
SUPER RAVENER
LICTOR LEADER
return of the RED MENACE.
And as some clear thinking comment noted add PLASTIC gargoyles,
and you will have a fantastic re-write that just created a whole bunch of new army types.
If players are encouraged to go for a variety of builds by different looking armies that can win in different ways it will be good.
If some builds allow warriors as troops for example, or gargoyles as troops, then you could have smaller elite style armies as viable options People will buy and play. We do want to make different or even unique builds if we can, but can't if the units aren't good enough.
The worst thing in design is codex is having too few lynchpin units. That leads to a narrowing idea of potential builds, and you end up with twin lash chaos: a design disaster because it can't produce enough variations of winning builds.
The devolution of tyrannids to nidzilla was inevitable. It was the direct result of the absolute power to points value of the hive tyrant and the carnifex. However you tool them or play them no possible combination of smaller gaunts could match them for the sheer survivability of those wounds at T6, not for the CC and shooting, since the big nids are hands down best in all departments. Six strength 8 assault weapon templates in the form of carnifex barbed stranglers are damn cheap power at 20 points a pop, much more than worth their weight in gaunts and T4 warriors. A good nidzilla kept a few small squads of genestealers in the shadows to support the big boys in CC.
I don't mind if they nerf nidzilla. To do so fairly they will have to make it possible to build a BLITZ (flying) list, a mid sized list, or a gaunt centered list.
But best will be if it will be possible to have around three or four different ideas that are equally viable.
Lets hope they get it right.
OTG.
1099
Post by: Railguns
Plastic Gargoyles have been on EVERYONE'S wishlist since 3rd edition; we all expect it so it's hardly an insight from a clear thinker as it is a common expectation. The monstrous creatures don't need a nerfing in power level as much as they need to be kept to their own force org slots, as you said. However, Carnifexes already out-compete everything else in heavy support so much that you rarely, if ever, see Biovores or Zoanthropes. Zoanthropes only ever get played in "for fun" lists or in psychic scream parties with occasional warp blast support. Biovores are just plain underpowered. I'm curious to see how they handle heavy support, because the Carnifex needs tweaking too; my main concern being that we are forced to take an I upgrade just to attack before powerfists(this makes the upgrade mandatory and is therefore an illusory option).
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
I think the carnifex is going to get a little nerfed ( just a little) so that the new bug which is supposed to be bigger can look even more badass.
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
grizgrin wrote:Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
I know. 
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
FlammingGaunt wrote:I think the carnifex is going to get a little nerfed ( just a little) so that the new bug which is supposed to be bigger can look even more badass.
Interesting that you should say that.
I was hoping that the WL not being broken as of the 5th Ed rulebook would lead to it staying about the same for the most recent Codex, but it got nerfed in rules and points and option stats.
So I'm guessing that the Fex will be nerfed HARD.
1099
Post by: Railguns
The poor thing will probably have an I1, WS and BS2, T5, S8, A1 LD5 4+ save statline before upgrades, and cost 100 points base.
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
I would cry and start a new army if that happened.
1099
Post by: Railguns
I remember the Hive Tyrant was base S6 in 3rd edition, and then moved down to base 5 in 4th. That left me a bit miffed. I still use my two, but it's still disappointing.
OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.
8815
Post by: Archonate
If they do that, they will also make them more survivable and deadly... Or not, and force people to utilize Tyrant Guard... 
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.
not likely considering rumors of plastic tyrant
I'm pretty sure carnifex is going to lose the ability to get str 10 i just hope they don't make it so he can't hit anything.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
JohnHwangDD wrote:Railguns wrote:If I recall correctly, aren't Tyranids the only army that actually got weaker with each new book since their inception?
I don't think so. Nidzilla was very effective when it came out, and definitely set a new high-water mark in terms of Nid effectiveness.
Railguns wrote:I remember the Hive Tyrant was base S6 in 3rd edition, and then moved down to base 5 in 4th. That left me a bit miffed. I still use my two, but it's still disappointing.
OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.
Hell, I was crushed when they 0-1's flyrants. I put a lot of time, effort, and money into my flyrants, and now I can only use one or the other? feth off.
4720
Post by: The Phazer
Does anyone think they'll try to encourage less 'Fexes by leaving the Venom cannon gimped, but giving Zoanthropes and Biovores much better anti-tank potential?
I have suspected for a while that one of the new units will be either an anti-tank spore mine or a Biovore variant with a massive cannon on it's back for taking out tanks.
Phazer
4298
Post by: Spellbound
I imagine they'll buff Raveners and lictors. Raveners will probably be able to DS and assault, and have flesh hooks standard.
I think carnifexes will stay elite or heavy, but they'll be adding the Trygon supposedly, so that'll be the new heavy hitter on the block.
Everything not MC will probably become cheaper.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Railguns wrote:What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.
Is a Hive Tyrant a Special Character? If not, you have nothing to fear.
____
The Phazer wrote:Does anyone think they'll try to encourage less 'Fexes by leaving the Venom cannon gimped, but giving Zoanthropes and Biovores much better anti-tank potential?
Yes.
I think the Fex will be kinda like this:
- ranged Venom Cannon, etc. move to fixed, no-maths S values (so sorry for high-S Fexes...)
- Feces will require Synapse minders or suffer Rage (oops, you bought ranged guns?!?)
- Feces will cost more points, but drop to BS1 (but you can pay for twin-link to get back to the old BS2-equivalent
This is a full Wraithlord-template nerf with Rage instead of Wraithsight, and BS1 instead of losing an attack
The Zo will be very precise, like a walking AP2 ID machine, while the Vore will use big effect templates
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Railguns wrote:OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.
Requiring players to buy less models? Won't happen.
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
Feces will cost more points
What a sh**ty deal! ZING! I'll be here all week, folks. Tip your waitress.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Feces.
ftw.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
MilkmanAl, ladies and gentlemen!
I'm still a bit torn over the news of a plastic tyrant kit. I think the metal model is one of the best models GW has ever done, the only downside was the lack of wings. I'm sure a new kit will have wings and all the other options (either that or they'll just sell those as a direct only sprue, seems to be their new way of doing things rather than putting it all in the box) and be easier to pose or convert, but still.
If they at least continue to sell the metal tyrant as a collector's or direct only item I'll be happy. If that were the case then I'd like to see what they come up with for a new kit, I do kinda like the Forge World design after all with the giant Aliens-style head crest.
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Post by: wyomingfox
I would have to say that the FW Flyrant was the best ever made. Sleek and deadly. I was pretty disappointed when 4rth came out with the bearish oh I only look slightly differnet from a carnifex version. If they go to plastic, I really hope they revert to slimmer sleeker preditor.
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Post by: Broken Loose
The whole purpose of the 4th edition Tyrant design was that it (1) looked more like the second edition Tyrant and (2) wasn't an Alien Queen ripoff.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
JohnHwangDD wrote:Railguns wrote:What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.
Is a Hive Tyrant a Special Character? If not, you have nothing to fear.
Ya know, that makes some sense but I call bs anyway. Simply because GW has proven, from past experience, to be able to pull some really serious whizbang facepalm bs out of their fething pocket to curveball at the players. I think that relying on Spec Char asserts that GW can't creatively get around it with some berzerk bs. Oh, I have faith that they can perform incredible feats of the inane.
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Post by: ungulateman
Railguns wrote:Zerglings, Hydralisks, Banelings, and Overlords. Is this the right thread?
TNG? I prefer the one with the Ewoks in it.
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
I hope they try and keep the Nids unique.
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Post by: Railguns
The move to standardize the physical characteristics of what made a Tyranid was a good idea in third, but I think they may have taken it a small bit too far. It's a solid idea, but at the same time many of the creatures look like either a gaunt, a larger gaunt, a huge gaunt, a big gaunt with a snake tail, etc. It would be interesting to see what they would come up with if they kept the "5 head plates, 6 limbs, tail, exoskeleton" characteristics, but experimented with radically different body shapes. A tyranid shaped like a cicada would probably look very interesting and nasty.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Actually I really like the standardization of physical characteristics: it really fits well with my homemade background which departs rather radically from the official background. I've even re-arranged the limbs on my bugs so that they match the gun-claw-feet configuration of my Termagants.
In the Rogue Trader background they were creatures of the void that found prolonged exposure to gravity uncomfortable, so having scything talons as the middle set of limbs and re-cutting them makes them look partially centauroid. Cutting off the crests of the Warriors is the hardest part, so they have rounder domes.
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Post by: Railguns
I like it too; however I also think that adopting it has caused them to be too conservative in designing new body types. I want them to keep the standard characteristics(IIRC I've listed the ones that Jes Goodwin stated were his ideas way back when 3rd edition nids came out) but use them on all sorts of body shapes. The actual body plan, as a biologist would put it, is always the same. 1 head, 3 pairs of limbs, 1 tail, a hybrid endo/exo skeleton, a head crest of 5 plates that can vary in size and shape, etc. But these guys also absorb and incorporate DNA from a whole galaxy's range of animals and plants, so I'd love to see those features applied to creatures we wouldn't expect to spice the line up.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Yeah, it's that part about absorbing DNA from their enemies that I don't like about their background. I prefer to think of them moreso as harvesting raw materials than incorporating genes into their genome.
The different body-types work better with a caste-based eusocial insect sort of thing, like they originally were. Rippers are just larvae, in this reckoning.
I do like the idea of them introducing Tyrannic genes into alien populations to infiltrate them, a la Genestealers, but that's because it dovetails nicely into the original theme of Tyranids being tyrannical, using mind-slaves, and being flesh-workers. Having a large slave population means more bullet-catchers that aren't proper Tyranids.
1099
Post by: Railguns
Honestly, I just want to see some variation in my crazy no-way bizarro science space monsters. I've been wondering what a Tyranno-cicada would look like for days, and what purpose it would be put to, if it kept the traditional "burrows in the ground and then rapidly metamorphoses into flying bug with extremely loud call"
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Well there you go: I'm enjoying the unified theme, and wish there was more (and convert so that there is more), and you'd like more variety. Interestingly Urban Mammoth's Koralon line of stuff seems more like what you're looking for: where there's a great variety in the number of shapes and sizes of bugs.
1099
Post by: Railguns
I've seen the Koralon stuff. Some of it is interesting but honestly they look like snake men to me. GW has shown that they can and do significantly change what a tyrannic body plan can do, otherwise we wouldn't have Zoanthropes, Malanthropes, Raveners, etc. But I'd like to take it to more extremes than the size of limbs and head shape.
20107
Post by: Kwosge
You all realize that they are going to sell spore mines in packs of 3-6 for $15-17 and make them so prolific that they will be all over the battlefield. It will be something crazy like for every 500 points rounded up you get 10 free spore mines and for every full 1000 points you get an extra 5. Furthermore, skimmers will count as being stationary when hit by spore mines and then count as moving full speed when taking damage so immobilizes kill them. They will also all deep strike and have slow and purposeful and be able to move and assault on their own.
Gas will not affect anything in full armor or a gas mask ( SM, Necrons, Eldar, Tau, CSM despite 50% of them having no helmets on), and will auto would with AP 5. It will still have no affect on closed vehicles.
Frag will be S5 AP5 and Ignore all cover (even area terrain). Mini Whirl Winds.
Acid will be S2 AP 1 with 2d6 but will hit every turn with +N to penetration where N = the number of turns that vehicle has been under affect of acid and/orthe number of times the vehicle has been hit by acid.
Buy your spore mines now.
Biovores will still suck and no one will take them. Possibly removed from the codex. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kwosge wrote:
Biovores will still suck and no one will take them. Possibly removed from the codex.
QFT
20086
Post by: Andilus Greatsword
With any luck they'll make the Tyranid Warriors less fragile - 3 battles in a row I've watched a Leman Russ blow up my entire unit with 1 shot...
11542
Post by: Elric of Grans
You did notice they have two wounds and Eternal Warrior, right? It is not possible for the whole unit to be killed by a single template.
1099
Post by: Railguns
That isn't possible. You know Tyranids are immune to instant death by S double T right? Still, they are incredibly tempting targets for bolters and other anti-infantry weapons with T4 and at best a carapace armor save for a model that costs as much as a standard Loyalist Terminator or 10 more points than a standard Chaos Terminator.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
I'm still hoping that they either beef up Tyranid armour saves or toughness.
Tyranid Warriors should be S5 T5 Sv4, as basic. Jack them up to 20pts each, but give'em that.
1099
Post by: Railguns
I think they need some physical boosting too. As for armor, I think that instead of beefing them up with a power-armor equivalent save or something even tougher, giving them even more wounds would be an interesting route. Tyranids are the stereotypical army punching bag evil army, and causing damage to them is part of the fun of fighting Tyranids, rather than attacking them and having them ward off or avoiding everything like a "hero" army would do.
Making Tyranid Warriors t5 with 3 wounds would be interesting, rather than giving them power armor. Instead of making their monstrous creatures have a 2+ armor save, maybe give them 6 wounds or more (or give them that many wounds and keep the save)?
7597
Post by: Kirbinator
Wait, what? I think you might be wanting a bit too much out of your Warriors and MCs there. S5 and 4+ armor base would be nice, I'm ok with T4 base with two wounds so long as they remain immune to instant-death. I don't want to see a price increase at all, honestly, as I feel Warriors are fairly pricey as is.
1099
Post by: Railguns
Warriors are definitely overpriced as they are.
I'd rather that if we went with one creature to a slot rather than the "squadron" style force selection of IG, then those creatures should be as tough as a squadron of tanks and cost appropriately, considering that they are supposed to be the major damage source of the army.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Nurglitch wrote:Tyranid Warriors should be S5 T5 Sv4, as basic. Jack them up to 20pts each, but give'em that.
Given that Ogryns are 40+ pts for S5 T5 Sv5+ without any bonus rules for the army, Nid Warriors will cost quite a bit.
6454
Post by: Cryonicleech
It could be suggested that 'Nids are coming up, as many products such as the Codex and Battleforce are no longer available on the GW website.
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
In fact, that very notion has been suggested quite a few times.
I'm all for a T5, 4+ Warrior. I'd pay 25-ish base points for that if they still couldn't be instakilled.
19057
Post by: oldone
i would love too see t5 w3 +4 as base and no isant daeth warriors  but i agree that it would be really expensive too buy( a 35% increase) and the points will be 20 and the oppion for regenate.
next i think that there are going to be 2 brand new creatues and 2 old new cereatues but aren't in the codex
next i think that if we do get nid SC they won't be like this is bill the tryant..,. i think they will be extxemte mutations that will only be used if the hive mind feels realy in danger
next cos GW never make a codex all good so gensteallers will be elites with brood lord turning them in too
just my 2 cent which may be discreedited(sos about spelling)
15804
Post by: Klueless
Does anyone actually know anything for sure or is this thread just 20 odd pages of speculation?
I want some juicy facts....!
3934
Post by: grizgrin
20 pages? Ha! This is dakka. We have thousands of pages of useless speculation.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
It's not useless. It's fun!
20162
Post by: Minaith1989
I hope if the codex does come out that some of the models get changed. For instance I liked the days when tyrant guard looked like a threat (when they had their nice huge shields and whips and god knows what else and towered above mortal men),rather than something that looks like some perverse rock walking around. *sigh* the good old days!
10193
Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
One thing I would want to see would be Synapse Negateing instinctive behavior (Which would be a little nastier), provideing stubborn, and allowing 'Nids in Synapse range to use the Synapse creatures Ld value.
1099
Post by: Railguns
Synapse already negates instinctive behaviour, thats the point. Stubborn would be an improvement over not-fearless-but-we-still-get-killed-by-no-retreat effect of synapse in combat, where we need to be in the first place.
20312
Post by: Threeshades
Crazy_Carnifex wrote:One thing I would want to see would be Synapse Negateing instinctive behavior (Which would be a little nastier), provideing stubborn, and allowing 'Nids in Synapse range to use the Synapse creatures Ld value.
And maybe ATSKNF. But I would be glad already if they could take a Leadership check to try avoid the No Retreat damage. I think all units incapable of retreat should be able to do so. Why would non-fearless units never take any damage when losing the battle except when failing their morale test and being caught by the sweeping advance and fearless/non-reatreating ones automatically gain damage?
1099
Post by: Railguns
I it's supposed to represent the units being so stupid that they would rather charge on to the enemy's weapons rather than retreat... but that still is a poor reason.
17463
Post by: SargesSquad
Agreed. It's not like there's an angry commissar circa 1944 waiting for them when they retreat.
"If you do not die by their guns, you will die by ours!"
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
And maybe ATSKNF. But I would be glad already if they could take a Leadership check to try avoid the No Retreat damage. I think all units incapable of retreat should be able to do so. Why would non-fearless units never take any damage when losing the battle except when failing their morale test and being caught by the sweeping advance and fearless/non-reatreating ones automatically gain damage?
I it's supposed to represent the units being so stupid that they would rather charge on to the enemy's weapons rather than retreat... but that still is a poor reason.
And Can't agree with you guys more just because some thing isn't running away it shouldn't take auto no save wounds. Any way we all know the current codex's problems, what about the new one and doesn't anyone know about the 4 new species?
1099
Post by: Railguns
They can take saves, IIRC. It's just that since generally Tyranids have such bad saves they suffer the worst of No Retreat!'s effects. Now, I can appreciate the rule accelerating the death of a giant unit if gaunts were suitably cheap enough, to simulate the "heroic" efforts of their targets killing piles of them at a time like we always see in movies and video games when heroes fight a horde. Like I said, I think much of the fun of fighting Tyranids comes from causing damage to them, not trying to pin them down and hurt them. However, since gaunts are so expensive for what they do(especially Hormagaunts) this rule is more of a drawback than it needs to be.
Edit: However I think Lictors definitely need to be hard to pin down and kill. They are the type of creature that stealthily hunts down targets and picks them off without drawing attention and danger to itself, so there isn't any reason for it not to have hit and run. Secondly, a poster in another forum came up with the idea that since a Lictor assault is basically a surprise ambush, when it charges an enemy unit, that unit cannot pile in before attacks are made. Call it "Ambush!" or something. Power up the Lictor offensively to the way it was in the old days(WS7, 4 attacks) and fix its deployment so that it doesn't have to roll on the mishap table just to deploy, then give it those 2 rules and it would be a great contrast to direct approach horde mess. It would finally have rules to match what an amazing model the 4th edition Lictor model became.
9788
Post by: goffnob deffsmakka
"The sources say they spoke to Phil Kelly during GD Germany. Here are the tidbits.
-4 New Tyranid species never before seen in a codex, one of which will make the current carnifex "look like a dwarf". ~I assume this would be the plastic Trygon
-Tyranid Characters return... No so much individual creatures like Old One Eye, but these will be indicitive of big creatures that have survived through battlefields and evolved into something better.
-Plastic Hive Tyrant kit with wings.
-Codex is in the can and is written by Robin Cruddace (of codex Imperial Guard).
-Tyranids will have evolved rules and abilities to better counter the rapid emergence of mech that has accompanied 5th edition. (implied that Biovores will be viable)!
-Release in 2010"
Rumour status only of course. But it would mean that either or both of DE and Necrons are further off.
What to expect with this, three carnifexes in one heavy support slot?
19057
Post by: oldone
no we get only 3 carefiex (sorry about spelling) so the elites get a chance at being used.
the 4 new types of nids is what intresed me cos the trygon mat be put in orr it could turn into ourer stompa like kit either way i happy , hopefully they don't give us squad leaders as i like the idea of hordes of guants runing amock and there leaders being behind them
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
Secondly, a poster in another forum came up with the idea that since a Lictor assault is basically a surprise ambush, when it charges an enemy unit, that unit cannot pile in before attacks are made.
If Lictors stayed the same cost, gained a toughness, and had that rule, they'd be pretty good. I'm still hoping for 3 wounds and at least a 4+ normal save in addition, but we'll see. I think it's safe to assume Feeder Tendrils will be gone or dramatically changed, so Lictors are going to need some combat help - another attack or something.
17376
Post by: Zid
That news you bring is amazing!
I don't see Elitefexes so much being eliminated as being replaced with better warriors, Lictors, and possibly some new units which is exciting! I love my fexes, don't get me wrong, but new things to play with makes me happier. Now maybe I can play my nids and have as much fun as I do my chaos
9964
Post by: Broken Loose
Has anybody noticed page 54 of the 5th Edition Space Marine codex?
It features an image of a Space Marine Captain fighting what appears to be a gaunt-sized version of the Red Terror.
Somebody has to know something about this.
1099
Post by: Railguns
It could just be a piece of art with a random non-standard nid design on it. They've been doing that since the 3rd edition codex as far as I recall. I remember seeing a picture of a Space Marine firing his bolt pistol into the mouth of some Predator-esque faced thing from around that time.
181
Post by: gorgon
Here's more new rumorage from a post by Tryanotherone on 40Konline (who appears to be quoting someone else but the attribution is unclear).
I have comments, but I'll wait until others chime in.
I've heard that hormagaunts will be 6 points without additional biomarphs and normal gaunts 3 without weapons but including WON (meaning they get 1 point cheaper and get won for free). hormagaunts can buy WON for the same cost as termigaunts can do now.
warriors can be taken in every slot. normally you can take them as HQ/elite as now. wings make them FA, a tyrant as a HQ (maybe a higher tiered one?) makes them troops, heavy support have +1t, +1sv and each can take a "heavy" weapon.
stealers are going to be elite unless you take a broodlord (who can supposedly be upgraded much more than the current one.).
one of the new HQs is said to allow ripper swars to controll objectives (malantrope?).
tyranids have supposedly got ahold of an alpha+ level psyker and integrated his DNA into the swarm meaning they will have about as many psychic powers to choose from as space marines (and they are all assumed to "make world wolf look like a child's game").
take from this what you like but I've heard it from a nid-nut who runs a GW store. imho especially the thing about ndis beeing ubar-psyker seams odd but would tune in with all the anti-psyker gear the wolves got. maybe they will need it?
dispelling every psychic pwoer on 4+ isnt that ridiculous if each one not dispelled costs you a whole squad...
maybe the change the malanetropes fluff to also be a super-zoa?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
thanks, gorgon.
I'd agree that, aside from the psyker bit, this all sounds quite possible.
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Post by: gorgon
If the points values are accurate, I suspect what you'll see with Tyranid builds aren't so much megaswarms, but good-sized swarms with more points left over for other stuff. Antitank is still the key. I'd love to see my HS Warriors get some action again if their guns get better.
The psychic stuff does seems like exaggeration. It technically fits the fluff. I mean, the passing of a hive fleet turns the warp into froth. But historically Tyranids have obviously had more of an antipsyker/unit support bent to their psychic abilities. The bit about absorbing alpha-level psykers seems off...hard to see how that'd enhance an already highly psychic superorganism. Unless that's why their powers take on more of a blasty-smitey bent.
270
Post by: winterman
Thanks for the repost gorgon. Sounds like my wishlist for the new codex may come true. Even if half my carnifexes can't be used I'd be happy with these changes.
Also have to agree the psycher thing seems off. However if these other rumors are true and also biovores become viable anti-tank, then there has to be some kind of boost to zoanthorpes. Or they'll have no real niche in the army.
9142
Post by: Axyl
To expand on gorgon's post:
This post will updated regually.
Please read this post and all following post first. If after that your comment hasn't appeared then you feel free to add it.
Thanks.
So far info is not of the solid type.
General Infomation
To be realeased early next year, possibly January or Feburary.
Written by Robbin Cruddance, and is already completed.
New Units
4 whole new races never before seen, one of them larger than the carnifex and also a plastic Trygon. More coming in second wave according to rumors.
Special characters, such as Old One Eye and possibly the Red Terror, will return. These will be survivors of wars and also have been mutated, instead of indurviduals.
Many people are saying they will be a plastic Hive Tyrant kit (with wings).
Malanthrope may be a new HQ choice.
Hormagaunts to be seperated from other gaunts as a box set.
According to Xas Hormagaunts will be 6 points and normal Gaunts 3 points including Without Number (WON). Hormagaunts will be able to buy WON for the same cost as the current Termigaunts.
A new broodlord was spotted at Games-Workshop design studio open day. (Any pictures will be appreciated).
Also according to Xas Genestealers are going to be elite unless you take a Broodlord.
More anti-tank weaponary.
The Plastic Trygon may have bits to make a Trygon or a Zoanthroph. Something else is also possibly buildable from the kit. More on that as i get info.
Plastic Gargolyes.
Warriors to be improved. Again Xas says that they will be avilable in every slot. Wings will them Fast Attack, a Tyrant as a HQ makes them troops, heavy support have +1t, +1sv and each can take a "heavy" weapon.
Possible new Biovore.
Possible new more powerful psyker.
Catachan Devils?
Will add new info when I get it. Hopefully will get more (solid) info after UK Games-Day. Hopefully.
The One
This and gorgon's quote is from this thread from the BOLS lounge
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2215&highlight=tyranid
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
If not for Robin Crudace helming the book, Nid players sound like they've got a lot to look forward to.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
Tyranid warriors as heavies: Seams like a throw back to 3rd edition. Might be tempted to take them at a heavy slot with death spitters alone just for the added survivability T5, Str 5 (6 with TS?...7 with DS?) and SV 4+ (3+ with EC?). Depends with what they compete with as far as functionality. VC at Str 8?
New Biovores ...hopefully they go back to 3rd edition effectiveness as well. Actually, I would be a little surpised if they got new models as they just came out with new metals a few years back.
Guants/Hormies: They are cheaper . My major question is whether or not they will be able to effectively tarpit. I know that the game designers said in previous WD articles that they wanted to do away with tarpitting in 5th...but you never know. I can hope can't I .
Stronger psychic? Super Psycher character?...like on par with Njal? "Begun the psycher wars has" . Actually, I am glad to see psychers getting some love in 5th. Adds some more dimension to 40K IMO.
Zoes: Question...were Zoes EVER cool... like in 2nd? Personally, I hope they take them out of the heavy slot...especially if Biovores get revamped and the Warrior thing is true.
VC: Please oh please let me pen transports
Anyways, I am taking most of this with a grain of sand
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
wyomingfox wrote:Zoes: Question...were Zoes EVER cool... like in 2nd?
With the big goofy hands and exposed flat brain?  No, don't be silly. Nobody loves the crab heads!
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
Hah! I meant power wise JHDD
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Oh.
In that case, I can't recall - I didn't play much against them back in 2nd.
666
Post by: Necros
IT'd be nice if they would move zoanthropes to elites, or count them as HQ that doesn't take up slots like IG advisors
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Sure, that would work, if Warriors were to continue to be largely useless.
But as an alternateive, GW can simply buff Zos and nerf Fexes to the point that the Zo becomes the new no-brainer Heavy pick...
Given the choice of letting players continue with their existing Nidzilla armies and forcing them to buy all new units of Zos, what do you think GW will do?
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
They got alot of buffing to do then ...ALOT of buffing
19057
Post by: oldone
I am not looking forward to see what the psyker thing gives us but i think that if it makes the world wolf power look like childs ply i will use it as my freind plays only imperium armies so i love to pnw them
666
Post by: Necros
Maybe the new pysker thing is a super zoanthrope? The Protozoanthrope?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
wyomingfox wrote:They got alot of buffing to do then ...ALOT of buffing
LOL.
After the whole WL fiasco, I'd expect a *LOT* of nerfing.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
In regards to Zoes, the only way that could possibly happen is if they made your opponent automatically win the game when you field them.
Of course I said that in regards to Biovores back in 4rth and GW proved me wrong.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Zoes were cool back in 2nd ed. I LOVED their original artwork in the codex, too bad they made the fig based on it when they did the metal warriors. Oh god those metal warriors, and the corresponding metal Zoe fig, were just Bad. The only version of the warrior figs I've disliked. I've never been a real big fan of the giant floating head thing myself, and not cared for any of the figs they've done for it.
Rules wise is hasn't changed too much, it's always been pretty much a vessel for Warp Field/Warp Blast oombos.
If the new psyker is a super zoe, I've already got a fig for it. Made giant zoe out of the previous Tyrant + Warrior back for the old make your own `nid creature rules.
I wouldn't be too surprised to see a new Biovore fig really. They've put out a new version of that every time they update the codex. Other than the head on the ork one, they've been slowly improving it's look. Too bad the rules for it seem to be slowly getting worse each version.
What's a Malanthrope? I've seen the forgeworld fig, but never it's rules to know just what that thing's supposed to be/do.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
Kinda like a Hive tyrant with fleet and ID
1099
Post by: Railguns
.
stealers are going to be elite unless you take a broodlord (who can supposedly be upgraded much more than the current one.).
dispelling every psychic pwoer on 4+ isnt that ridiculous if each one not dispelled costs you a whole squad...
maybe the change the malanetropes fluff to also be a super-zoa?
DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT
NOOO!
Why! I love fielding tons of Genestealers. Now I can't use my 50+ genies unless I buy a specific model? Screw that. I knew it was going to happen, but DAMMIT ALL. Genestealers don't care who is leading the army once the full Hive shows up.
As for the rumoured super zoanthrope, I'd much rather have the psychic strength of the Hive come from many psychic units that work together to browbeat an opponent down, rather than one super psyker that can get killed and then suddenly the swarm has no psychic powers anymore. I'd prefer a full on psychic choir of Zoanthropes as a unit, rather than adding a super Zoanthrope that will make the already underused Zoanthropes redundant.
At least gaunts went down(allegedly) in cost. I'm happy about that.
20162
Post by: Minaith1989
Dunno if ya's know but theres 4 types of nid listed in an over view of how nids consume worlds. The nids listed arent in 40k so im wondering if its them? I believe its in the codex but i dont have one to hand atm so I'll post again later with the location of it.
181
Post by: gorgon
The price drop is nice, but 3 pts and free WoN says to me we can forget about them fixing No Retreat wounds. It looks to me like Gaunts were designed around disposability rather than grinding and tarpitting. I mean, you can still put together a 30-Gaunt brood for only 90 points, and it'll hold up for a couple rounds. Then it dies and you bring 'em in again.
If No Retreat is still in place, it'll be a very different approach to Tyranid swarms.
Hormagaunts at 6 pts might have some offensive capacity, hopefully more than they (meaning the base models) have now.
666
Post by: Necros
so if warriors can be in any slot somehow, how would you make em troops? wings = fast attack, big guns = heavy, they're elite or hq normally now...
guess this means a shiney new warrior kit is on the way.
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
Great... I have 4-5 boxes of the old ones I still havent messed with (Im of the opinion that Warriors suck with our current codex).
18991
Post by: mikesorensonxx
Necros wrote:so if warriors can be in any slot somehow, how would you make em troops? wings = fast attack, big guns = heavy, they're elite or hq normally now...
guess this means a shiney new warrior kit is on the way.
Maybe, but I don't think it's so they can troops. If you bring a Hive tyrant the warriors can be brought as troops. I wonder if it's just one unit like a warboss or if you could bring 6 units of them. I would say the warriors would get a new box for the wings, but they've been able to get them since 3rd. That would also be alot of extra wings overall unless it was only 1 per box. What's a Zoantroph? (previous poster said you can make him out of the trygon kit)
17692
Post by: Farmer
Chapterhouse wrote:Great... I have 4-5 boxes of the old ones I still havent messed with (Im of the opinion that Warriors suck with our current codex).
75% of the units in the nid book suck,this why they're re-doing them me thinks.
20639
Post by: kinggames
They better be coming soon! 
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
I think i've might of stumbled across what the new big beastie will be the catchen devil, or something similar. Now to randomly speculate what the other 3 are.
19057
Post by: oldone
FlammingGaunt wrote:I think i've might of stumbled across what the new big beastie will be the catchen devil, or something similar. Now to randomly speculate what the other 3 are.
Well heres ago
they'll ive us a brand new creatue that will be able to kill tanks in shooting but at every thing eles it will suck and die.
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
Well heres ago
they'll ive us a brand new creatue that will be able to kill tanks in shooting but at every thing eles it will suck and die.
That deffinately wont be the larger than carnifex creature but i could see that. Kinda like the Biovore except actually good at shooting.
181
Post by: gorgon
Necros wrote:so if warriors can be in any slot somehow, how would you make em troops? wings = fast attack, big guns = heavy, they're elite or hq normally now...
guess this means a shiney new warrior kit is on the way.
The rumor was pretty clear...they're normally HQ or Elites. Fielding a Tyrant lets you move them to Troops, just like Warbosses and Nobz. The equipment differences are with HS and FA.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
If the part about them making genestealers elites unless you take a broodlord, is true. Think about it, you could have 6 squads of gene stealers with broodlords, as a troops choice, and then a further 2 more for you elite if you wanted. that would be a butt load of gene stealers if you ask me.
I dunno tho, this could be all crazy talk. Ive heard from numerous people that the next dex after SW is going to be *insert 3 different armies here*
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Biovores do SUCK at shooting. My god those things are useless IMO. Make them able to shoot AT something would help lol
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
I'd take 9 squads of stealers
11377
Post by: shadowseer92
Well heres ago
they'll ive us a brand new creatue that will be able to kill tanks in shooting but at every thing eles it will suck and die.
thats called a biovore
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
According to Whineseer, the book is Games Day confirmed for JANUARY 2010. They have pictures to prove it And now to sit back and watch people dismiss the entire book because of the cover. Ho hum.
11
Post by: ph34r
Awful cover. Won't be buying this one. Robin Cruddace? More like captain arbitrary!
I think that about covers it.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Nicely done!
9964
Post by: Broken Loose
The only disappointing thing about that cover is seeing Leviathan colors again. I was hoping Hydra would be the poster child this time around.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Hmm... just a 'Fex on the cover. Nothing to indicate a new model of any type (not even a Malenthrope or Trygon in the background).
Pity.
744
Post by: Anarchyman99
That sounds wrong I bet it's a Trygon or a Malanthrope.....both FW models and the base body size is the same and they already have a Zoathrope model.
181
Post by: gorgon
Anarchyman99 wrote:That sounds wrong I bet it's a Trygon or a Malanthrope.....both FW models and the base body size is the same and they already have a Zoathrope model.
I see people saying this, but that would represent a redesign for the Malanthrope. There is a tremendous size difference between the two (see third pic below).
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/malan.htm
Not saying it wouldn't happen, just clarifying the point that the existing models really aren't at all alike.
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
Well at least we know its coming out in January, I think the cover is a WiP, noway thats the final cover, its very ugh.
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
Is someone going to change the name of this thread to replace the word "February" with "January"?
See the UK Games Day update at http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/09/40k-news-gamesday-uk-2009.html
I'm more interested in the 40K movie than the Tyranid revision.
9158
Post by: Hollismason
Okay so that means that there will be a Dark Angel Blood Angels Codex probably in May or April.
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
I expect another SM chapter codex after nids but I could be more xenos like DE which keep getting pushed back. Also I'm disapoint in the codex cover with the bright sky but you can see some bio titians in the background there just really faded.
10193
Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
They've had them in background art for ages.
744
Post by: Anarchyman99
gorgon wrote:Anarchyman99 wrote:That sounds wrong I bet it's a Trygon or a Malanthrope.....both FW models and the base body size is the same and they already have a Zoathrope model.
I see people saying this, but that would represent a redesign for the Malanthrope. There is a tremendous size difference between the two (see third pic below). http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/malan.htm Not saying it wouldn't happen, just clarifying the point that the existing models really aren't at all alike.
Your 100% spot on. The height is close what if the smaller center is the Malanthrope, and you add armor plates (making the torso section larger) and longer tail parts to make it the Trygon? Just and idea....
20124
Post by: Neith
In regards to the rumour of 4 new Tyranid types...I saw a picture somewhere (either a Codex or rulebook of somekind) which showed a chart of how Tyranids attack a planet. Listed at the end were 4 unit type we don't have in 40k yet.
- Exocrine
- Dominatrix
- Malefactor
- Haruspex
I'm not saying those will definitely be the four new types, but it seems convenient. Of course, 'new types' could just mean Trygon/Malanthrope and two others (not Hierodule/Hierophant, I'm thinking those will stay FW-only kits).
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Those are established Tyranid creatures, first seen in the Space Marine 2nd edition Tyranid expansion.
666
Post by: Necros
maybe they'll have the snakey tail and some other bitz on one sprue and the rest of the trygon body on another, and a malanthrope body & head on another, so they can make 2 kits out of the same snakey tail sprue. Or maybe it'll be a trygon/malathrope kit where you just add in some different bitz to make one or the other
1099
Post by: Railguns
There looks to me to be at least 2 different heads, and 2 different tails to the Trygon, in the pictures we've seen. One with a grabby appendage that I must assume involves some sort of swallow attack akin to the Red Terror's special attack, and the other seems to be some form of implant attack?
As for tail, the 2 different Trygons are displaying what looks to be either a scythed or poisoned end, and a club end. If those are indeed what the tail ends are then the Trygon probably follows a biomorph scheme like the Carnifex does now. I hope that it doesn't require biomorphs just to be used competently like the Carnifex does now.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
As I said in a previous thread, what we've seen so far are probably prototypes for the plastic Trygon, in a similar way we saw proto-Stompaz in the Apoc rulebook and a proto-Bastion on the 5th Ed rulebook. I'd say we should expect something similar to what we've seen, but not exactly what we've seen.
18991
Post by: mikesorensonxx
Neith wrote:In regards to the rumour of 4 new Tyranid types...I saw a picture somewhere (either a Codex or rulebook of somekind) which showed a chart of how Tyranids attack a planet. Listed at the end were 4 unit type we don't have in 40k yet.
- Exocrine
- Dominatrix
- Malefactor
- Haruspex
I'm not saying those will definitely be the four new types, but it seems convenient. Of course, 'new types' could just mean Trygon/Malanthrope and two others (not Hierodule/Hierophant, I'm thinking those will stay FW-only kits).
The dominatrix is about the size of a Hierodule, the other three the size of the trygon so I doubt we'll see any of them on top of the Trygon. Although a Exocrine would be nice, we need an anti-tank ranged creature. The Malefactor and Haruspex also have the same roll as the Trygon.
1099
Post by: Railguns
I'll laugh if they come up with some modern version of the old slug with a super-venom cannon coming out of its back and saying it's the answer to all our anti-armor woes.
181
Post by: gorgon
I think spore mines are going to play a bigger role in antitank. They're even on the cover...is that the first time ever we can say that? One might even be one of those large spore sacks, although it's unclear.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Actually, given the general configuration of the Carnifex model, Forgeworld's Scythed Hierodule, and the Biovore, I can imagine that they can produce both Exocrine models and Biovore models based on the Carnifex kit, either recut, or with an extra sprue of bits thrown in. Or even a new dual-purpose set.
Make the Carnifex the assault version, the Exocrine the direct-fire gun-beast with a heavy venom-cannon style gun poking out from the front of its carapace, and the Biovore the indirect-fire gun-beast with a spore-launcher located in the same location. Replace the middle set of limbs in the case of the latter-two with sacs of spore mines, and you're gravy.
Also, have the Exocrine fire D3 S10 AP1 Blasts, and enable the Biovore to produce extra Spore Mines at the cost of wounds, and give Spore Mines Large Blast markers and you have three distinct niches.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
When we talk about 4 new types, remember that the Codex is helmed by none other than the esteemed Robin Crudace of C: IG fame. So at a minimum, 1 of the new types is going to be the humble and lowly "Spinegaunt".
The Trygon and Malanthorpe are givens as they are brand new models.
That leaves the 4th, which will be a new name for a Heavy Warrior.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
I think it's more likely that "Gaunts" will be Termagants again. It's a pity that they amalgamated Termagants and Hormugaunts into "Gaunts" in the first place, and worse still that they left Termagants as "Gaunts" even after putting Hormugaunts back in their own unit. But at least they have the opportunity to fix it.
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
I'm just excited about the rumors of reasonably-priced Gaunts. Hallelujah! Hormagaunts sound like they might still be kind of mediocre from No Retreat, but at least they're usable.
1099
Post by: Railguns
I'm a bit torn. I like the models, and how the Termagants and Hormagaunts seem to be derived from a single "ancestor" warrior creature. At the same time, I like how they used to be so severely differentiated; so much so that Hormagaunts were basically fast shock troops and Termagants were more "convential" foot soldiers. I always wanted to use Termagants over Spinegaunts, even though Spinegaunts were cheaper and generally did the same job better because of it, because Termagants were iconic of Tyranids to me. I hope there is a good reason to use them of spinies in this book.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Hasn't it been established that it's 4 new species not done before? That could mean 4 current fluff species getting rules or 4 new ones that have not even been in fluff ever. 'Nids constantly evolve, makes sense that some new, never before seen by Imperial commanders, species (or 4) could have recently been spotted.
New species can mean just that, not necessarily new models for existing fluff species.
1099
Post by: Railguns
There is a precedent for "new" things being old things they decided to bring back with Cruddance. The 4 "new" species may very well be options we already have now that don't have their own codex entries.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Fateweaver wrote:Hasn't it been established that it's 4 new species not done before?
Yeah, like IG Griffons, Vindicators, Medusas & Valkyries.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'd rather have the Dactylisc (or however you spelt it) be the indirect one than a bigger Biovore. Fateweaver wrote:Hasn't it been established that it's 4 new species not done before?
Just like Space Hulk was something GW had never done before? [EDIT]: Damn it! Beaten to the punch by John...
7782
Post by: Tresson
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd rather have the Dactylisc (or however you spelt it) be the indirect one than a bigger Biovore.
Fateweaver wrote:Hasn't it been established that it's 4 new species not done before?
Just like Space Hulk was something GW had never done before?
[EDIT]: Damn it! Beaten to the punch by John...
Your post-fu is growing weak.
20162
Post by: Minaith1989
Wouldnt surprise me if its what neith said (yes they may be established but that doesnt mean they cant pass them off as 'new' again. They could be variants of them). I guess we shall just have to wait!
20124
Post by: Neith
Nurglitch wrote:Those are established Tyranid creatures, first seen in the Space Marine 2nd edition Tyranid expansion.
Yeah, I mentioned those because they don't have a 40k counterpart. I didn't know they're Trygon-sized (aside from the Dominatrix, which is probably meant to be bigger). Even though using their current predetermined sizes in 40k would be ridiculous, I just found it odd that there were exactly 4 species mentioned.
However, the mention of Spinegaunts is interesting, those didn't cross my mind at all.
19398
Post by: Tim the Biovore
I saw the sneek peak at the new codex cover and man does it suck. Looks like GW is hiring yr1 artist thesedays.
5394
Post by: reds8n
I disagree, the cover is very nice.
It's 3 new plastic kits and 3 new metal kits with this codex. 
7375
Post by: BrookM
Any word on what's what?
Is there still something brewing with that Trigon?
5394
Post by: reds8n
I have some ideas and thoughts...can't say anything yet, but I do think the Trygon is very plausible. Wouldn't surprise me if we again see units that hitherto have been FW or don't have models either--like the guard codex.
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Post by: BrookM
I'm guessing no new Gargoyles then. 
5394
Post by: reds8n
BrookM wrote:I'm guessing no new Gargoyles then.
..  it...I think you're 100% wrong there actually.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
New metal Gargoyles then - twice as fiddly, and with a new flying base that's three times higher and snaps if you breathe near it.
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Post by: reds8n
H.B.M.C. wrote:New metal Gargoyles then - .
..nope.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
reds8n wrote:I disagree, the cover is very nice.
It's 3 new plastic kits and 3 new metal kits with this codex.
The cover looks good to me to... and I work with illustrations for a living wich means nothing I guess 
Thanks for the info mate...
Wild guess plastic Trygon, Hive tyrant & gargs... metal... broodlord, new beetles swarm, biovore ( because they miss everytime they try)
19398
Post by: Tim the Biovore
OK, so I never said you guys had to dislike the new cover, but I am not the first person people have disagreed with, I am simply the most annoying. But I am looking forward to see if we get plastic Heirophants and Trygons. I reckon that Tyrant Guard and Biovore should come in a pack like the Chaos Terminator Lord, a main body with multiple add-ons.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Plastic gargoyles could be sweet, but I suspect they'll be priced similarly to Stormboyz, so fielding a big swarm would be pricey.
5394
Post by: reds8n
I don't think a plastic Tyrant is especially viable.
... I'm starving, really really hungry.
...has anyone else read the trilogy that features Eisenhorn's apprentice ?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I only just got 12 of them in metal.
Bah...
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
reds8n wrote: I don't think a plastic Tyrant is especially viable.
Apart from the plastic wing option sprue I agree.
12304
Post by: Wannabe Writer
I am really excited about the rumours posted here if they are true. Dirt cheap hormagaunts, with WON, how awsome is that? I love my hormagaunts (think I'm the only one I know who does though) and at 6 points a pop I'll be buying a shed load more. I'm also praying that gargoyles become plastic as I've wanted them for ages, but at £10(ish) for two as they currently are there is no way in hell I can afford them.
I'm not really fussed about the cover art, it's whats inside that interests me.
I'm thinking the four "new" units are more likely to be Forge World stuff that has not previously been in a Codex (though I'll be happily surprised if it aint). I'm going to predict that one of the four new entries will be Myotic spores, those really large ones from Forge World.
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Post by: gorgon
reds8n wrote: I don't think a plastic Tyrant is especially viable.
... I'm starving, really really hungry.
Yeah, me too...positively ravenous.
Not a big surprise there, although I half-expected them to do some kind of combined box with Warriors. Hope the new rules make 'em worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wannabe Writer wrote:I'm thinking the four "new" units are more likely to be Forge World stuff that has not previously been in a Codex (though I'll be happily surprised if it aint). I'm going to predict that one of the four new entries will be Myotic spores, those really large ones from Forge World.
I tend to agree. That way it's not as if there aren't models available...you just have to pay an arm and a leg for them until the plastic versions are released.
So for plastic we might be looking at Gargoyles, Ravs and the Trygon. In metal...hmm. Maybe a new Broodlord? The new "special species" could come into play here too.
7375
Post by: BrookM
reds8n wrote: I don't think a plastic Tyrant is especially viable.
... I'm starving, really really hungry.
...has anyone else read the trilogy that features Eisenhorn's apprentice ?
Yes, Nids are mentioned there with that magical portal thing. Ravenor takes place before the Great Devourer hits the Imperium. I'll need to re-read the third book to get the odd reference here. Automatically Appended Next Post: reds8n wrote:BrookM wrote:I'm guessing no new Gargoyles then.
.. it...I think you're 100% wrong there actually.
Wow, sorry for breaking your vow of silence.
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Post by: Railguns
I'd have to contend that a plastic Hive Tyrant would sell incredibly well, especially if it had a wing sprue. There have been more, and more varied, Hive Tyrant conversions that I've seen in the last few years than just about any other type of conversion in 40k entirely. It'll sell.
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
A new tidbit about Tyranids just went up on the GW website today. Here's a link. And then there's this too.
12304
Post by: Wannabe Writer
I love the 40K version of the White Dwarf, I want it! I really like the grot in a 'Grey' alien costume. Hope this means Squats might be making a comeback .
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Post by: Lorek
I think RedS8n's hint is that 'Nids will be more of a swarm army again. We've heard whispers of that before as well.
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Post by: gorgon
Reds8n, I think you need to add to your post that you're so hungry because you attended one of those all-night dance parties, and drove home in your Toyota compact crossover SUV, a vehicle you talk about with wild enthusiasm.
Ah well...nevermore.
19057
Post by: oldone
I don't think that the hive tryant kit will selll inless its a awesome model as because of 4th ed version a lot of people just convert and won't give it up fo a ok model
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Post by: FlammingGaunt
I'm reallly hoping that the new species are more than just varirants of older species however a gaunt with a flamethrower or sniper rifle would be awesome.
17050
Post by: MilkmanAl
Gargoyles a la 2nd edition? Yes, please! That would be so hilariously broken now.
666
Post by: Necros
Of course they're making this more swarmy. That's the whole idea. Guard, skaven, nids.. and they threw in space wolves just because. hordes armies = sell more models to play it glad I already have tons of gaunts.
I wouldn't mind seeing em bring back stranglewebs and spike rifles
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Post by: wyomingfox
I would! I am starting to run out of dispoable income
19398
Post by: Tim the Biovore
I think that Gargoyles should be made in plastic and come in boxes, but that wil never happen. But BIOVORES must be resculpted.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
I want to see Lictors become as badass as Lone Wolves (or ffs at least Sly). They don't need new models though. I love the current Lictor model, just it's rules suck. I field it though, even at 80pts because it's too damn cool looking.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
FlammingGaunt wrote:however a gaunt with a flamethrower or sniper rifle would be awesome.
You mean like Stranglewebs
and Spike Rifles?
1963
Post by: Aduro
Fateweaver wrote:I want to see Lictors become as badass as Lone Wolves (or ffs at least Sly). They don't need new models though. I love the current Lictor model, just it's rules suck. I field it though, even at 80pts because it's too damn cool looking.
Preach on brother! I field a pair of em because they're so bad ass lookng. They also a little helpful for my two you it's of outflankng genestealers.
759
Post by: dumbuket
I'll be the new species will be:
Malanthrope
Trigon
Giant Spore Mine
"Heavy" Warriors
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Where are you getting the '"Heavy" Warriors"' from?
6051
Post by: avantgarde
There is a rumor that you could take Warriors with +1 T, +1 AS and heavy weapons as heavy support choices.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
I just braved Warseer and it seems that is the rumour.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Platuan4th wrote:FlammingGaunt wrote:however a gaunt with a flamethrower or sniper rifle would be awesome.
You mean like Stranglewebs
and Spike Rifles?
Wow, 2 *more* Nid Species!!! Huzzah!
6051
Post by: avantgarde
That is what I fear the most in the post Shulk world, a massive cop out by GW.
"Check out these 3 sweet new plastic kits, two of them are actually gaunts and hormies repacked into 2 separate boxes with some new random bits and the ripper swarms removed and the third one is actually a ripper swarm sprue. AWESOME!"
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Well if Robin's writing it expect every rule from the current Codex to be changed. Yes, every single one.
1099
Post by: Railguns
He's going to do something to Living Ammo. I can feel it. It's such a cool, characterful rule that actually empowers some of my models that it can't just sit there unchanged. It'll probably be nerfed to being a reroll at -1 or something.
8709
Post by: OnTheEdge
H.B.M.C. wrote:Well if Robin's writing it expect every rule from the current Codex to be changed. Yes, every single one.
Of course! And don't forget all the "special characters" ala IG
...Makes me sad to think about it
//Edge
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Railguns wrote:He's going to do something to Living Ammo. I can feel it. It's such a cool, characterful rule
It'll probably be nerfed to being a reroll at -1 or something.
Confer -1 to any subsequent Ld test taken!
10086
Post by: Neconilis
H.B.M.C. wrote:Well if Robin's writing it expect every rule from the current Codex to be changed. Yes, every single one.
Well, this is new.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Since they're doing special characters, I'm hoping they being Grendal back. He was a mean one.
6946
Post by: Dexy
Hopefully the French will leak a PDF with the units like they did the IG 3 months early again. Eyes peeled next month!
16186
Post by: the_emperors_renegade
Hello and welcome to Channel 2 news.
The miniatures company Games Workshop has now officialy dropped all races of their game Warhammer 40,000 with the exception of the "EVER POPULAR" Space Marines.This means that anyone who is looking forward to the new 'nids 'dex can shove his hopes up his a$$.
Now, the weather forecast fo the next week...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Aduro wrote:Since they're doing special characters, I'm hoping they being Grendal back. He was a mean one.
Grendel? The only Special Characters I remember ever being in a GW Tyranid Codex was the Red Terror and Old One Eye.
Grendel was a fan-made Hive Tyrant character I saw at a website over 10 years ago, back during 2nd Ed. Where else has it shown up?
9892
Post by: Flashman
Here's hoping that Without Number get's the subtle tweak that they gave to Chenkov's Conscripts i.e. You get to choose when the unit is removed, instead of waiting until it is wiped out.
19398
Post by: Tim the Biovore
And now this post is gone due to it being impolite.
9892
Post by: Flashman
Having another bad day Tim?
171
Post by: Lorek
Tim the Biovore wrote:There is barely anything stopping me from calling you what I think. I can just say that you should get a life and stop being a fething loser. And in other news...
...aaaand that's still a violation of Rule #1. Please click on Rule #1 in my sig for a complete list of the Dakka rules.
Thank you.
1963
Post by: Aduro
I don't think it was fan made, I think it was an actual GW campain that he was part of. The two fan made ones I remember were Kraken (befor there was a hive fleet) and Crusher.
For those who don't know him, Grendal was a tyrant with bone sword, lash whip, venom cannon, with lictor cover rules, and a veil of darkness.
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
Wow Grendal does sound bad ass a lictor hive tyrant mix thats really mean, but awesome.
19398
Post by: Tim the Biovore
OK, I apologise. I could have restrained myself, but when your me everyday is a bad day. I'm just sick of people acting like they know everything, because of course there is a new Nid Codex coming out, your just trying to defend the 'power' of your own army.
173
Post by: Shaman
I hope they make a new lictor model.. the 2nd ed one is cooler then todays one and that is sad.
Also I hope the codex is ridicuolusly broken .. just for laughs.
Hoping for balancce with GW is like hoping to live while playing russian roulette with a glock.
1456
Post by: Big-Squig
JohnHwangDD wrote:Railguns wrote:He's going to do something to Living Ammo. I can feel it. It's such a cool, characterful rule
It'll probably be nerfed to being a reroll at -1 or something.
How crazy would it be if they just made it poison?!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Shaman wrote:Hoping for balancce with GW is like hoping to live while playing russian roulette with a glock.
Bwahahah! Sigged.
7854
Post by: saryrn
This is totally my opinion, and has no source or basis. But my prediction is the following:
Plastic kits: Gargoyles, Raveners, Hive Tyrant. Warriors and gaunts get recut.
Metal kits: Broodlord, 2 "special characters"
1. All the guns will get nerfed, inadvertently, through the streamlining of the Str: S+1 assault X. This will make close combat more viable. The biggest victim will be the devourer. Venom Cannon will not be strength 10 anymore because Warriors can take them and you can take a unit of warriors all with Venom Cannon. I think strength 9 would be overpowered but might just make it through if they are recutting the warrior sprue and want to sell loads. Fair strength of VC seems 8 (if it can penetrate), but if they want to sell loads of warriors, might be 9. That will "fix" that part of the VC/BS Fex. Devourer will be even worse, since gaunts can take it. Im guessing strength 3 assault 3. Im hoping its Poisoned 4+ on gaunts, and poisoned 2+ on MC's. BTW if you have a strength 3 poisoned 4+ weapon, can it wound a toughness 8 or toughness 7? Barbed Strangler might stay the way it is, ie str8 large blast pinning, which would make it overpowered on warriors, which is kind of what they want to do.
2. Raveners will get a lot cheaper in points because Im guessing they get a new plastic kit, and they are the natural extension of the Trygon. If you want to sell lots of trygons and raveners make both of them cheap and good, and you sell both. If you make 1 of them lame, especially the Trygon, you are risking people dont go for that build.
3. Gargoyles will get a lot cheaper, and will be the unit of choice to provide MC's with cover saves - especially Flyrants since they move at the same speed.
4. If Hive Tyrants get a new plastic kit, they will get a cut in points. This is also to compensate that the most popular build of the dakka tyrant, will get nerfed hard. Also you will be able to take 2 flyrants. Tyrant guard goes down in points too.
5. You can take broods of Fexes in HS, but I doubt that you will be able to take them in Elite anymore. Im guessing you can equip them differently and allow abuse of wound allocation. That way they can be more survivable and be able to walk across the battlefield.
6. Spore mines get good. Really good. So do biovores. I also think we are getting an Exocrine. Thats the bug that Im guessing is supposed to make the Fex look like a dwarf.
7. Psychic Powers will get really good.
7625
Post by: Alex Kolodotschko
I'd like to see the trygon create an entry point for 'deep striking' swarms.
That would be super fluffy and really fun.
19398
Post by: Tim the Biovore
Only one warrior per brood can take a venom cannon, by the way. And two flyrants is a bit stupid, unless you can take gargoyles as a troops choice.
7854
Post by: saryrn
According to the new and latest rumours, if you take a brood of warriors as heavy support, they get +1T, +1Sv and ALL can take heavy weapons.
173
Post by: Shaman
Ive been sigged by the chaplain of hate.. I am honoured.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
All the hate towards special characters; I understand it when the character is rather cheesy but I think at this point players will complain if their codices aren't like that.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
saryrn wrote:BTW if you have a strength 3 poisoned 4+ weapon, can it wound a toughness 8 or toughness 7?
Yes, poisoning bypasses the "to wound" chart entirely
1099
Post by: Railguns
Yeah, nerf the venom cannon so that it's maximum strength is 8. Gotta make sure Nids have no powerful anti-tank at all.(/sarcasm) I hope against hope that they keep the "weapon stats are tied to creature using them" approach, because it's something no other army in the game does and helps to characterize the Nids far more than a simple statline per gun. It isn't hard to figure out, so they can't say that the "streamlining" helps anything. The only confusion I've ever, ever heard was when an old Tyranid player was almost sure that toxin sacs didn't affect weapon strength because scything talons didn't, because someone told him that(probably at a tournament)
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Railguns wrote:Yeah, nerf the venom cannon so that it's maximum strength is 8. Gotta make sure Nids have no powerful *ranged* anti-tank at all.
FYP.
Personally, I'm happier if the variable-S thing goes, especially if Nids are getting a lot more species added. Variable S means that both players need to know the basic S values of every Nid model, along with the +/- adjustment of every Nid weapon. Fixed S per ranged weapon is much easier.
That said, I'd be OK with the Venom Cannon being S9 A2 and only glancing.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
JohnHwangDD wrote:That said, I'd be OK with the Venom Cannon being S9 A2 and only glancing.
I am sure that anyone who doesn't play tyranids would agree . I, however, wouldn't. Strength 10 glancing isn't effective against transports as it is, strength 9 would be worst  .
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
S10 A1? OK.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
It's a wonderful dream
7893
Post by: LucasLAD
JohnHwangDD wrote:S10 A1? OK.
Railgun nids? Awesome
I wouldn't be surprised if they did something to circumvent the "Remove Model" rule because as it stands "Jaws" will still own the poop out of nids.
330
Post by: Mahu
I don't see the reason for Venom Cannons to have the "only glance" rule anymore.
The rule was written in Third and Fourth edition where a glancing hit could still kill a vehicle. With 5th edition, that ability for a Venom Cannon to kill a vehicle was removed, and for a weapon that has such a limited capability to be taken in an army in the first place, it's an unnecessary restriction.
I think a better idea would be a straight Str. 10 AP 2, -1 on the vehicle pen table. Automatically Appended Next Post: I wouldn't be surprised if they did something to circumvent the "Remove Model" rule because as it stands "Jaws" will still own the poop out of nids.
I have a feeling that will be answered with the Nid's own psyker ability.
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Post by: bhsman
Mahu wrote:
I have a feeling that will be answered with the Nid's own psyker ability.
I'm guessing there'll be a reason to keep your MCs in range of Synapse?
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Post by: FlammingGaunt
Synaspse is diffinately going to change the degree however is the question.
330
Post by: Mahu
Well, I forsee Malenthrops and Zoenthropes that have a reasonable chance at shutting down psykers. Maybe even doing them harm if they try to cast powers with 24" or something like that.
I would also like to see Synaspse be more of a support / buff portion of the codex, then to have units dependent on it.
I also think they need to remove "no instant death" from synapse and just make Warriors toughness 5 base.
But this is me wishlisting.
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Post by: Shep
As far as the venom cannon is concerned, the easiest fix is to make it str 10 ap-. That brings it right back to being in line with where it was pre-5th.
As far as variable strength weaponry. I have a feeling it'll stay. I'm going through all of the plastic kits and looking at the guns. The warrior barbed strangler and venom cannon are significantly smaller than the carnifex ones. Same goes for the gaunt devourer versus the carnifex devourers.
However, the fleshborer, the spinefist and the deathspitter have fixed sizes. The carnifex deathspitter is just a one-handed version of the warrior deathspitter, and the only models with fleshborers are the same size. Perhaps we might see a locked in statline for the small guns, and maybe a carnifex/hive tyrant venom cannon/barbed strangler/devourer, and then regular versions.
Ultimately, my wishlist for nid shooting is VERY short. It requires a re-work of the venom cannon. basically, what I want for nids is the ability to pull down all fast vehicles and transports with relative ease. I am talking AV10/11/12. What i DON'T want, is for nid shooting to be capable of pulling down av13/14. If that happens, we will end up with nidzilla for 5 more years. Infantry based armies don't need to be able to kill all tanks from range, but they do need to be able to shut down mobility and swat fast gunships down. If they can't do those things, then they will get whittled down and beat down without getting to grips with their opponent. Heavier tanks need to move slower in order to fire, even the land raider only fires a single weapon moving more than 12". Its ok for those heavier tanks to chatter away while the nids close in and kill off transports and fast gunships. They can defeat MBTs the way all aggressive armies should, either by outflanking, or by a mid to late game assault.
That being established, a strength 10 gun with a -1 to the table isn't much worse at killing a land raider than it is a land speeder. Not a welcome mechanic. What we need to have, is either a strength 8 ap1 36" range assault x weapon, A strength 7 multiple shot long range weapon or a strength 8 possibly 9, non-ap1 assault x weapon. In the case of the latter two, we need LOTS of them, so either cheap, or VERY accurate.
The only other clutch piece of nid shooting on the wishlist I am already confident we are getting. And that is a turn 1 anti-infantry cover ignoring shot. The thunderfire cannon has helped my marine opponents finally solve the riddle of imperial guard. It goes hand in hand with long range transport kill, really influencing the game in the first third, before land speeders have had an effect. I forsee an important combo of nids, when facing off against dangerous mech armies is a venom cannon transport pop and a biovore pyroacid barrage onto the survivors. We will probably only need one brood of biovores to get the job done, much like marine players are only running single thunderfires.
For wishlist CC. I dunno... make nids good at it? Raveners strength 5 base with heroic intervention? Carnifex tail attacks that generate 6-10 extra low strength attacks when tarpitted? Genestealers with discounted scything talons/acid maw/toxin sacs? Make catalyst worth a damn, like it was in 2nd edition? incorporate the wonderful suggestions about lictors that all of you guys have been posting... the only 2nd edition tyranid psychic power that they aren't currently using is called "Hypnotic gaze" It'd be the perfect thing for the broodlord or lictor to have access too. Basically making enemies into deer in headlights before slicing their heads off. Since I know GW is mining the old fluff for content to update, my guess is that we will see this new psychic power, as a way to fix lictors hopefully.
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Post by: Broken Loose
JohnHwangDD wrote:Personally, I'm happier if the variable-S thing goes, especially if Nids are getting a lot more species added. Variable S means that both players need to know the basic S values of every Nid model, along with the +/- adjustment of every Nid weapon. Fixed S per ranged weapon is much easier.
You're kidding, right? The only people in this world who even know what Tyranids look like are Tyranid players, including GW's artists. The variable S system isn't complicated at all and doesn't require the other player knowing the stats of your units-- or else my prior statement wouldn't be true. Try to find a non-Tyranid player that knows Tyranid stats. Go for it.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Shep wrote:For wishlist CC. I dunno... make nids good at it?
*wipes tears from eyes*
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Post by: Broken Loose
wyomingfox wrote:Shep wrote:For wishlist CC. I dunno... make nids good at it?
*wipes tears from eyes*
*kills 20 gaunts and then watches 3 nearby fexes explode in a fine pink mist from no retreat wounds*
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Post by: gorgon
wyomingfox wrote:Shep wrote:For wishlist CC. I dunno... make nids good at it?
*wipes tears from eyes*
We can only hope.
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Post by: Shaman
Ive read through a fair part of this thread.. its long.
Firstly I think synapse will actually do something this time. Like a free attack for every model and/or an inv save for every model within its affect. It will be something odd like this and it will make gaunts awesome.
There will be some way to rearrange the force org chart.. Maybe special genus/characters, one of these will be the effective one, that will allow gaunts to have mastercrafted attacks or something similar.
The Tyrgon will good, a variant will be amazing and make a carnifex look like a guardsmen with an arm tied behind his back. This variant will require conversion or take forever to come out.. ala ironclad or vendetta.
Lictor will definately fail ruleswise.
The other thing about GW is that GW always has strange lists which are super effective.. usually this is something you wouldn't think to take and so no one at the studio has taken it.. like lone wolves in termie armour with storm shield. So annoying.. This is why competive list are always unfluffy because no one at the studio would think to play that way. Cause they are beer pretzel players. Something like gargolyes with flyrant will never be effective as say only bring tyrgons.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Broken Loose wrote:wyomingfox wrote:Shep wrote:For wishlist CC. I dunno... make nids good at it?
*wipes tears from eyes*
*kills 20 gaunts and then watches 3 nearby fexes explode in a fine pink mist from no retreat wounds*
Sounds like my Ard Boyz
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Post by: Mahu
I totally agree with Shep, I forgot that AP - essentially does what I propose.
I have faith in Robin Cruddace, with the exception of two units (ratlings and Storm Trooper), the IG book has been the best one in years. So many different Army builds, so many different yet good Heavy Support options. I even commend him on making the Valk a good choice, but not a "must have" (though it does outshine other FA).
Some people seem to think he writes codexes akin to the 3rd edition Eldar codex.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Why not just make the Vencom Cannon able to penetrate with no bonuses or negatives to the table. Is it such a bad thing that 'Nids get a single gun that can crack tanks, honestly?
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Post by: Kirbinator
H.B.M.C. wrote:Why not just make the Vencom Cannon able to penetrate with no bonuses or negatives to the table. Is it such a bad thing that 'Nids get a single gun that can crack tanks, honestly?
I personally wouldn't mind at all. People who scream that the carnifex is the most horribly broken unit in all of gaming ever would whine that the best the Imperium has to offer for long range is only S9 Heavy 1, so why should 'nids get S10 Assault 2? Granted Tau only get S10 Heavy 1, but their shot is attached to TL BS3/4 and gets AP1 to boot.
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
I do believe that the true nature of the tyranids are going to seen in this new codex. plus everyone is talking about the carnifexs and genestealers are going to be gimp, but there are going to be several new creatures that going to be introduce into the tyranids to balance the army out. so we are going to have wait and see.
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Post by: oldone
I personly would think it would be awesome if they change w=venom cannnon or just ave us another gun
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Post by: Shep
H.B.M.C. wrote:Why not just make the Vencom Cannon able to penetrate with no bonuses or negatives to the table. Is it such a bad thing that 'Nids get a single gun that can crack tanks, honestly?
I agree that the venom cannon shouldn't have any kind of +/- shenanigans. It should just have an ap value, and be able to pen. However, i disagree that it would be ok for tyranids to get a BS3 two shot strength 10 weapon. They need to be able to drop vehicles, but they don't need to become the premier army for dropping heavy armor from range.
I'll just super specific on my wishlisting.
Heavy support choice warriors, any model may take a venom cannon. the venom cannon in this unit should be strength 7 and have 2 shots at BS3. The unit itself should generate around 4 hits for every 100 points it costs.
Hive tyrant venom cannon, strength 9 three shots, BS3
Carnifex venom cannon, strength 9 three shots, BS3 with upgrade.
Transport and light gunship kill solved.
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Post by: MilkmanAl
I don't understand why Genestealers would need to be toned down. They're awesome at CC, but they're fragile as hell. Personally, I think they'll stay the same, lose Feeder Tendrils, and decrease a couple points.
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Post by: Railguns
I personally love the stat modifiers from the user rules. It's characterful and cool. Is it honestly that hard to learn the stats for these things when people go around memorizing everything else for every other army under the dang sun? C'mon now, you can't honestly tell me that people get confused, and STAY confused past the first couple of games. Do people forget how to learn when they fight Tyranids? Wasn't a huge part of the ad campaign for 3rd edition Nids some sort of "KNOW YOUR FOE!" Imperium propaganda poster style chart of what each Tyranid looked like? Haven't people been prioritizing and killing the different species like they always have? It isn't hard! A bolter is a bolter, regardless of the hands that weild it, but a fleshborer can grow with it's wielder; a Carnifex with a man sized fleshborer jutting out of its hands is goung to hit harder than a Termagant with an uzi sized fleshborer.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Except, the Carnifex-sized fleshborer is the same as the Warrior & Tyrant one...
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Post by: Railguns
See? You knew right there. That's my point. It isn't hard to remember this stuff.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I know the models, but I have no idea if the Fex, HT, and Warrior are all the same Str, and what the Fleshborer S might be from fired by all 4 of the things that can take it.
If Nids had "big Fleshborer" and "Gaunt Fleshborer", I could live with that.
But having 4 (or more) versions of the thing, when 3 of them appear to be the same, doesn't make so much sense.
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Post by: Railguns
C'mon, it isn't that bad. S+1. All you need is the S of each creature in question and basic arithmatic.
Hive Tyrant? S5. 6 with toxin sacs
Carnifex? S9, 10 with sacs
Gaunts? 3, 4 w/ sacs.
Everybody ends up memorizing Demon Prince stats, and what marks of chaos do, all the statlines of the bazillion extra seige weapons that Guard have now. How can you play a game like this and not end up knowing this stuff?
It's just one of those things that seems complicated and obtuse until you get exposed to it. Like taking calculus for the first time.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
So, it's S3, S4, S5, S6, S9, or S10? Great!
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Post by: mikesorensonxx
JohnHwangDD wrote:So, it's S3, S4, S5, S6, S9, or S10? Great!
If you're having a hard time, ask your opponent- he should know. Or just follow the bigger they are the harder they hit.
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Post by: Railguns
The shot is 4 on gaunts, 5 on warriors, 6 on Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes, because it's max strength 6. And noone ever, ever uses them on anything but gaunts anyway, so you amy as well just assume it's a bolter with 12" range. Thats all. Honestly I can't remember the statlines of the .. I don't know, the 5 or so similar Imperial Guard artillery platforms. If I played against them I'd end up knowing them eventually though.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
mikesorensonxx wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:So, it's S3, S4, S5, S6, S9, or S10? Great!
If you're having a hard time, ask your opponent- he should know.
You're right that he *should* know.
But I shouldn't have to trust him to work his way through math correctly and honestly when every other gun in the game can simply be answered based on what it is.
Because, you know, sometimes opponents make mistakes.
And sometimes, they even (gasp!) "mislead" you...
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Post by: ph34r
I have to agree that keeping track of what gun does what and at what str and shots is complicated unless either you or your opponent are really on the ball. However, it is one of my favorite features of the tyranid list.
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Post by: MilkmanAl
I don't really see why it's difficult. If you're trying to remember strengths on certain monsters, you're doing it wrong. Remember the formula, not the strength. That isn't confusing in the slightest. It's certainly way easier than remembering values for armies that have non-Imperial weapons since there are only a half-dozen weapons to recall.
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Post by: Railguns
Honestly, it always ends up being the same configuration anyway, once people figure out what the optimal configuration is. Dakkafex devourers are always S6, flyrant devourers are always S6, Warrior deathspitters are always S6, Warrior devourers are always S4, Carnifex Barbed Stranglers are always S8... you end up with standard weapon lines anyway. But the options inherent in the system are what makes it fun.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Railguns wrote:Honestly, it always ends up being the same configuration anyway, once people figure out what the optimal configuration is.
But the options inherent in the system are what makes it fun.
Oh, OK, then you can just kiss it goodbye, because what you just described is *exactly* like (pick any of the following) Doctrines / Traits / Craftworlds / Legions.
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Post by: ph34r
JohnHwangDD wrote:Railguns wrote:Honestly, it always ends up being the same configuration anyway, once people figure out what the optimal configuration is.
But the options inherent in the system are what makes it fun.
Oh, OK, then you can just kiss it goodbye, because what you just described is *exactly* like (pick any of the following) Doctrines / Traits / Craftworlds / Legions.
R.I.P. fun.
EDIT: oh no, first post of new page, must post on topic...
How would GW handle removing biomorphs anyway? Isn't that the whole tyranid "thing"?
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Post by: Lukus83
If anything I think they will add more options. Same biomorphs, but give tyrants access to +1 T and stuff like that.
Biomorphs are not going anywhere. It's not my responsibility that my opponent doesn't know the rules to my dex...just as it's not my opponents fault if I don't know what a unit does in his army.
Face it, biomorphs are cool!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm more worried about GW making the devourers useless and replacing them wih deathspitters as the weapons of choice on MC's. So much re-modelling it isn't even funny (I don't magnetize).
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Post by: Lukus83
Double post...my bad
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Post by: mikesorensonxx
Lukus83 wrote:If anything I think they will add more options. Same biomorphs, but give tyrants access to +1 T and stuff like that.
Biomorphs are not going anywhere. It's not my responsibility that my opponent doesn't know the rules to my dex...just as it's not my opponents fault if I don't know what a unit does in his army.
Face it, biomorphs are cool!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm more worried about GW making the devourers useless and replacing them wih deathspitters as the weapons of choice on MC's. So much re-modelling it isn't even funny (I don't magnetize).
That's my biggest fear too, but it's the growing pains every 5 years I guess.
As far as opponents misleading, if they are low enough to do it on purpose you can do it with any army not just tyranids. Like accidentally forget to pay to upgrade a flamer to a melta gun or something.
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Post by: Tim the Biovore
Venom Cannons should not be just glancing. In the current codex, it describes a man having his flesh melting from his bones. Why? He was shot with a venom cannon, meaning it is like acid. It should melt through metal with ease, not glance.
And Lictors should be allowed to take some different Bio-morphs, as long as they wouldn't disrupt the Stealth thingy.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Lukus83 wrote:If anything I think they will add more options. Same biomorphs, but give tyrants access to +1 T and stuff like that.
Um, have you seen any of the Codices which came out in the past year or so?
- Special Characters
- No biomorphs
- fixed unit types
- carefully-selected options
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Post by: Railguns
I've always made a point to explain what each of my monster's upgrades mean and show people my list before I play, with my codex handy, if it's their first time against my army. I usually also explain what each of my models are capable of, since I already know what each of his models can do at a glance and he may not if he/she isn't experienced fighting Nids.
I believe the current biomorph system is rooted in the Andy Chambers 3rd edition dex, which also had rules to create your own hive fleet with it's own signature mutations. I really want one of those. It may go back further than that but I'm not sure. As far as the question of it being "their thing" is a function of age, I think it doesn't matter. If it works and characterizes the army more fully, keep it.
I think I'll just wait this out and see what happens once more rumours come out.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Um, have you seen any of the Codices which came out in the past year or so?
But John... I thought the new Chaos Codex gave you more options, not less? I mean, that's what you've been telling us. You aren't contradicting yourself again are you? That would be so sad.
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Post by: the_emperors_renegade
yay tyranids in january, dark eldar in february and necrons in march!and then a DECENT csm codex in april...WHAT A YEAR!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Tim the Biovore wrote:In the current codex, it describes a man having his flesh melting from his bones. Why? He was shot with a venom cannon, meaning it is like acid. It should melt through metal with ease, not glance.
You think that's bad?
The 3rd Ed Tyranid Codex - where this whole 'Glancing Only' bull-gak game from - describes the Venom Cannon as a great weapon for 'penetrating' tanks in one paragraph (fluff), and then in the very next paragraph says that it glances only (rules). Amazing. Automatically Appended Next Post: the_emperors_renegade wrote:yay tyranids in january, dark eldar in february and necrons in march!and then a DECENT csm codex in april...WHAT A YEAR!
Don't be crazy. There's no Dark Eldar Codex.
Rest of that is spot on though.
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Post by: saryrn
Railguns wrote:Honestly, it always ends up being the same configuration anyway, once people figure out what the optimal configuration is. Dakkafex devourers are always S6, flyrant devourers are always S6, Warrior deathspitters are always S6, Warrior devourers are always S4, Carnifex Barbed Stranglers are always S8... you end up with standard weapon lines anyway. But the options inherent in the system are what makes it fun.
I believe flyrant devourers can only be S5. Hive Tyrant is S5 and can be upgraded to S6, and Devourer is S-1 so 5. While Carnifex would be S9 -1 =8 but capped at 6 for the weapon.
Please tell me again that its so easy to remember that it doesnt have to be changed. I play tyranids myself, and I know that I got confused between the tyrant devourer and the fex devourer a couple times.
Also as I wrote in the post above, the devourer will go from being arguably our best gun to our worst gun with this change. So I am not advocating it for power, but for simplicity. I think the idea of having "Big Devourer" and "Small Devourer" has a lot of merit though. That would mean fixed stats on weapons but address the diversity issue.
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Post by: Tim the Biovore
Now it's time to change from pessimist to optimist! Yeah!........Looks like everyone is gone.
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Post by: Mahu
As far as Biomorphs are concerned, do we really need that many options.
To many options dilutes the game and makes even veterans scratch their heads over what they are facing.
Or was I the only player who encountered the same Deamon Prince over and over with different gifts every time I faced him. "Oh, he had a Dread Axe this time, and I am learning that now that you charged my Terminators, great...". Trust me, I was there doing it too.
Look at the Gaunt entry in the current codex, how many of those options do you actually use. Yakface wrote a whole article on the current Carnifex in 4th edition, roughly half of the options weren't even usable.
So I reject the notion that we need massive amount of biovore options. Hormaguants and Guants should have very little. Carnifexes should have a respectable list, but one that makes since.
Oh and Spore Mines should go back to large blasts.
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Post by: gorgon
My prediction is for fewer and more focused biomorphs. In the case of the Carnifex, I still think we may see different dedicated Carnifex types. So the assault Carnifex gets access to a particular list of weapons and biomorphs, while the gun Carnifex gets access to different lists. Something like (a totally revised) Thornback would be exclusive to the assault Carnifex, etc.
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Post by: Railguns
The problem with the biomorphs now isn't that we have too many; it's that we have too many useless ones. A big list with only 4 usable things doesn't mean a big list is inherently bad, it just means that the people coming up with the list didn't do a good enough job of game design. The current amount would be fine if half of them weren't useless. If the statlines confuse you, just read the guy's list. If he won't give you a list, then he's being a poor sport anyway.
Edit: Sorry I was thinking of the 3rd edition Tyrant who was base strength 6 before toxin sacs and devourers. I've been pretty woozy and unable to concentrate lately. Hope it isn't flu onset.
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Post by: Mahu
I just don't see 20 usable options as a possibility in a game system that has a relatively simple basic mechanics.
Sure, things like "+1 STR" or "+1 BS" has it's place and can be useful, but do we really need three different tail options? I am sure that those tails will still have some purpose in the new dex, simple because they are on the sprue.
Also, I am a firm believer in the current design that puts an emphasis on making the basic model complete and useful. You shouldn't have to choose options just to get the model legal.
I forsee that the Carnifex will come with two sets of scything talons as standard and you can upgrade from there.
I am not a proponent of the design philosphy in the Dark Angels and Chaos codexes that simplified things too much. But I think the post 5th Edition Rule book codexes have been much better at keeping the balance between too many options and too few.
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Post by: Lukus83
Perhaps I need to clarify what I meant by more biomorphs. I didn't mean new ones, I meant that nid's in general should have access to a bigger list of existing ones (currently only carnifexes can get an extra wound and an extra point of toughness). Get rid of the junk that no-one uses...either due to crappiness or just unusable now in 5th, and you have a respectable list of biomorphs.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Railguns wrote:The problem with the biomorphs now isn't that we have too many; it's that we have too many useless ones. A big list with only 4 usable things doesn't mean a big list is inherently bad, it just means that the people coming up with the list didn't do a good enough job of game design. The current amount would be fine if half of them weren't useless.
You know, I'm pretty sure I read the *exact* same quote about Doctrines. Or was it Traits? Legions? No, wait, Wargear! Nah, Daemonic Gifts!!! Oh, wait, ALL OF THE ABOVE!
It is a fact of gaming that, in any given list, 20% will be relatively optimal, and 20% will be relatively garbage. The larger the list, the wider the spread becomes. You can see this effect in any army list/Codex, along with Magic card sets, and even Chess pieces. The smaller the list, the less non-optimal stuff, and the easier it is to bring things closer together. 
Now, if everybody really were casual, then a huge amount of stuff would be playable. But gamers have a tendency to focus only on the "good" stuff, so why bother making the rest rules with design & playtesting effort, when a line of Fluff is sufficient?
The other issue is that many Biomorphs are relatively "invisible" in the same way as Gifts (Toughness? Strength?).
- Weapon arms & the Fex tail, I can see, because it's big.
- Little blobs (glands?, sacs?), not so much.
- Extra Armor? Not really signficant-looking.
- Different heads? Nomoreso than a Marine in a Crusader / Beakie / Rebreather helm.
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Post by: Railguns
I'm pretty sure that the designers of Magic intentionally write bad cards into the sets for some particular purpose that was mentioned in one of the head designers blogs.
I agree that the base model should be usable. A carnifex base model shouldn't be some useless lump of plastic that that look ferocious and accomplishes nothing. They went a bit too far with the current fex statline by making the base creature too impotent before upgrades. As for being legal before upgrades or not, thats just because they went the route of making you pay points for the weapon you wanted instead of giving it a weapon and having you replace it for something else at a smaller points cost. I think the first approach might, might, be more appropriate for Tyranids if you want to assume that there is no such thing as a standard Carnifex because it's a mutable genus. I can go either way on that because I also like the idea of particular strains becoming so successful in the swarms that they become standard creatures like gaunt broods, Hive Tyrants, Warriors, etc. with small, secondary adaptations made through "equipment" for a particular situation.
I'll give you toxin sacs and adrenal glands. For toxin sacs, it's because the little things are fiddly, small, and usually attached to the underside of arms and the like, so are hard to spot. For adrenal glands, it's because they gave 2 different upgrades the same name and physical representation, then had arguments for years over whether you could or couldn't take both of them and what that meant for WYSIWYG.
Now I still espouse the options, though, because I appreciate the creative side of the game and if I want flying, plasma spitting bugs with extra eyes and a thorny carapace I'll want to try it anyway. There isn't anything wrong with having the option to do something if it's less than perfectly competitive. What I wish would happen is that they would rework how some of the actually useless biomorphs work. Spore carapaces are useless because they have a change to hurt the Carnifex, yet no chance at all to ever actually reach the enemy in a realistic time frame AND may actually give up extra kill points. Thornback and symbiotic rippers do exactly nothing in 5th edition.(I'd like to see thornback become the "impact hits" upgrade given the codex description). We have no reliable ranged anti-tank right now beyond using the barbed strangler on light vehicles and the venom cannon on open topped ones. Even then the only times you ever see the heavy weapons are on the MC's anyway. The Warriors can only hit S7 with a venom cannon, 4 with a Barbed Strangler, and nothing else in the list can use those two weapons.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The concept of the Carnifex isn't bad, and same with the WYSIWYG backs. But they need to be reconcepted more simply, like the "big" guns.
What's wrong with Carnifexes and Warriors both having the *same* "big" R36" S8 AP4 A2 Rending Venom Cannons? Is there a balance problem with a trio of BS3 "Heavy" Warriors all armed with S8 A2 Venom Cannons when they'll score a whopping 3 S8 hits (with a good chance to Rend against heavy armor), netting roughly comparable functionality as 4 BS4 Devastators with 48" Lascannons...
Or, oh, noes, the Carnifex and Warriors have the same "big" anti-troop gun, so the Warriors lay down 3 BS3 large plates instead of the Fex dropping a single BS2 plate.
With the same weapon effects for the same-looking guns, a couple things happen Warrior v Fex:
- Heavy Warriors become really, really good for shooting at stuff directly
- Carnifexes become well-differentiated as Uber Assault Beast Monstrous Creature
With the shooting role passed over to Warriors, it now becomes easy to give the Fex a Plasma Template attack, along with carapace Tank Shock, carapace "grenades", bonus Tail attack, etc. because it's clearly an Assault model that only carries the gun(s) for advancing fire. This means that the Fex can be semi-fixed with S10 Rending stabbers for the first 2 arms to drive the point home, akin to how a Defiler is mandated to have the Cannon and can then fiddle for a little more shooting or a couple more attacks.
Of course, this means that the Fex and/or Zo becomes (optionally, depending on the Special Creature) Elite, but that's easy enough to reshuffle.
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Post by: Mahu
I agree John.
Warriors should be the shooty choice, especially if they have a rumor to be heavy support options.
Would it be so bad if instead of Elite fexes, you could take units of them? Like the Thunderwolf Cav in the Space Wolves codex or Russ Squadrons, make then a 1 - 3 option. I think that is the easiest way to encourage CC fexes, make the Screamer killer the basic cheap option, and make upgrade expensive enough that fielding a unit of 3 gun fexes would be too expensive. But Carnifex squadrons would allow you to use wound allocation to your advantage to protect the more upgraded Fex.
Just a thought. Automatically Appended Next Post: It is a fact of gaming that, in any given list, 20% will be relatively optimal, and 20% will be relatively garbage. The larger the list, the wider the spread becomes. You can see this effect in any army list/Codex, along with Magic card sets, and even Chess pieces. The smaller the list, the less non-optimal stuff, and the easier it is to bring things closer together.
I disagree with this. Most newer codexes have been composed of mostly useful units since the promote a wide variety of good builds.
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Post by: Aduro
I could see 'Fex broods being weaker ones, ala elite 'Fexes, or singular big o es.
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Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Throwing this out there for consideration:
The new IG dex has LOADS of different ways you can build your lists, and it is not considered a poor codex right now. Granted, certain variants are more predisposed to winning in 5th (i'm referring mainly to mech vets) but you can still build effective armies such as the 50-man platoon blobs, tank-spam, etc. In the IG codex's case, adding more to it did not significantly reduce the effectiveness of the codex as a whole.
It is entirely possible that the new Tyranid dex will be constructed in a similar manner. We may even see brand-new stuff nobody has even imagined yet (they are a rapidly evolving race, after all). We may not get nerfed as bad as you suspect. With space hulk genestealers out in force, they may try to buff them to up the sale value of the SH set if they try to re-release it in the future. We have no idea what they are planning, so it is hard to say what will get buffed or nerfed.
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Post by: Anarchyman99
Aduro wrote:Fateweaver wrote:I want to see Lictors become as badass as Lone Wolves (or ffs at least Sly). They don't need new models though. I love the current Lictor model, just it's rules suck. I field it though, even at 80pts because it's too damn cool looking.
Preach on brother! I field a pair of em because they're so bad ass lookng. They also a little helpful for my two you it's of outflankng genestealers.
I have the older 3rd one, and I run three, the new one looks sweet but one more wound would really be nice. All I really want is for Genestealers to rend like they used to, thats it. I like being able to and trust in mass die rolling. S4+6+3(D3maxxed) = 13....not even a glance.....
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Post by: Railguns
JohnHwangDD wrote:The concept of the Carnifex isn't bad, and same with the WYSIWYG backs. But they need to be reconcepted more simply, like the "big" guns.
What's wrong with Carnifexes and Warriors both having the *same* "big" R36" S8 AP4 A2 Rending Venom Cannons? Is there a balance problem with a trio of BS3 "Heavy" Warriors all armed with S8 A2 Venom Cannons when they'll score a whopping 3 S8 hits (with a good chance to Rend against heavy armor), netting roughly comparable functionality as 4 BS4 Devastators with 48" Lascannons...
Or, oh, noes, the Carnifex and Warriors have the same "big" anti-troop gun, so the Warriors lay down 3 BS3 large plates instead of the Fex dropping a single BS2 plate.
I never said there was anything wrong with that. Actually, I did complain that for some reason the only powerful shooting choices we get always end up on the Monstrous creatures. I'd love heavy warriors to add to the weight of fire my army puts out, because currently all I have for shooting ends up being a gunfex and my hive tyrant. But I want to keep the option to have close combat Warriors and Shooty Carnifexes or hybrids, if I so want. This is Tyranids; supposedly the most diverse and biologically flexible army in the game. To take away options that diversify what models can do in any other army is an unwanted annoyance. For Tyranids, it's practically a mortal sin.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Mahu wrote:Would it be so bad if instead of Elite fexes, you could take units of them?
I think that is the easiest way to encourage CC fexes, make the Screamer killer the basic cheap option, and make upgrade expensive enough that fielding a unit of 3 gun fexes would be too expensive.
If the Fex moves to Elite and becomes a 1-3 unit, I think that'd be just fine. The guns would sort themselves out, even on a unit of 3 because they'd be paying BS3 prices for BS2 guns, and not gain any Strength bonuses. So they'd always be inferior to Heavy Warriors from a shooting perspective.
The only catch is that the upgrades would have to be for *ALL* Fexes in the unit. That is, you wouldn't be able to take one grenade back and another with the Tank Shock back. It may be mutable genus, but whatever mutation the Hive Mind chooses, they'd come out identical within any given unit. A separate unit of Fexes could be different, but that wouldn't be a problem. This solves the Nid Biker problem, BTW. Besides, forcing every Fex to buy the S10 Rending Claws pretty much solves the Gunfex issue, as it's not possible to take 2 different Guns on a Fex, as there is only one option slot available.
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Railguns wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:The concept of the Carnifex isn't bad, and same with the WYSIWYG backs. But they need to be reconcepted more simply, like the "big" guns.
What's wrong with Carnifexes and Warriors both having the *same* "big" R36" S8 AP4 A2 Rending Venom Cannons? Is there a balance problem with a trio of BS3 "Heavy" Warriors all armed with S8 A2 Venom Cannons when they'll score a whopping 3 S8 hits (with a good chance to Rend against heavy armor), netting roughly comparable functionality as 4 BS4 Devastators with 48" Lascannons...
Or, oh, noes, the Carnifex and Warriors have the same "big" anti-troop gun, so the Warriors lay down 3 BS3 large plates instead of the Fex dropping a single BS2 plate.
I never said there was anything wrong with that. Actually, I did complain that for some reason the only powerful shooting choices we get always end up on the Monstrous creatures.
I'd love heavy warriors to add to the weight of fire my army puts out, because currently all I have for shooting ends up being a gunfex and my hive tyrant.
But I want to keep the option to have close combat Warriors and Shooty Carnifexes or hybrids, if I so want. This is Tyranids; supposedly the most diverse and biologically flexible army in the game. To take away options that diversify what models can do in any other army is an unwanted annoyance. For Tyranids, it's practically a mortal sin.
By having Gun Str vary by Model Str, you force the guns to only be taken by the highest S models - Carnifex & HT. Terrible, terrible design decision. By fixing the Gun Str by the Gun itself, you free up more models to be effective shooters, like Warriors and Heavy Warriors.
As above, if you want Heavy Warriors to be effective, you cannot have Gun Str vary according to the Model that carries it.
You can always have the option, but you wouldn't cross the model completely against type - Warriors could have the big stabby claws and cheap guns, or the Carnifex could carry a "good" gun, but going against type means that you're not leveraging the platforms to their greatest extent. It's a more flexible / tactical approach, rather than a specialist approach. And really, what this does is the same as how most other models are more constrained in how they're configured.
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Post by: Railguns
Or just make heavy warriors S6 or something, so that the +2 strength makes it into a lascannon equivalent. Lictors already are S6, so beefy Warrior variants could easily hit that. Most of the problems Tyranids face now could be solved with a little non-linear thinking. I know that there is always the "specialist vs generalist" balance that every army seems to deal with at one point or another, but I like the fact that I'm at least presented with the dilemma rather than have the choice made for me.
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Post by: MilkmanAl
By having Gun Str vary by Model Str, you force the guns to only be taken by the highest S models - Carnifex & HT.
What? How is that true at all? That problem is taken care of with the weapons costing different amounts depending on what takes them. Sure, the weapons may take on different roles based on the strength (e.g., barbed stranglers on Warriors vs. Carnifexes), but that doesn't mean that they're only good on the biggest things that can take them.
As above, if you want Heavy Warriors to be effective, you cannot have Gun Str vary according to the Model that carries it.
I dunno, I'd be okay with a unit of 40-ish point Warriors all toting S7 venom cannons. It wouldn't be crap-your-pants amazing, but it'd still throw out some good firepower. Ditto that for barbed strangler units. Making heavy Warriors S6 (or the option to be) would be pretty incredible and may be warranted. I'm somewhat disappointed by the mild allusion that regular Warriors are still going to be T4, though. I really think they need T5 and a standard 4+ save to be any good, but meh. I'll take what I can get, I suppose.
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Post by: Railguns
Currently they are just big bolter magnets that cost as much as Terminators. I'd say they need something to keep standing under the flurry super blasty deffcannons and suchwot that the other armies are flinging around like candy these days.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Railguns wrote:Most of the problems Tyranids face now could be solved with a little non-linear thinking. I know that there is always the "specialist vs generalist" balance that every army seems to deal with at one point or another, but I like the fact that I'm at least presented with the dilemma rather than have the choice made for me.
Given that Nids pretend to follow an evolutionary backstory, they should niche and specialize over time, so each Codex should have more sub-species to exploit narrower evolutionary roles.
Something like the current Carnifex is akin to a dog, bred from the Screamer-Killer wolf. Having several mixable breed equivalents for specific purposes shouldn't be a problem in the Nid list.
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