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Post by: Revarien
I'd prefer this be in the other (now locked) Sisters of battle thread, but here we go... (Source, Newest White Dwarf... hitting soonish):
"Sisters of Battle: Consecrated Shrine
Key Building Stratagem
The shrine houses a relic of great importance. The Sisters of Battle will stop at nothing to protect this revered artefact, finding fresh reservoirs of faith to call upon and defeat their foes.
Rules: Any Sisters of Battle units within a Consecrated Shrine count as having a Simulacrim Imperialis. In addition, if a Sisters of Battle unit within the building successfully makes an Act of Faith, roll a D6: on a roll of a 5 or 6 your army immediately gains a Faith point (see next issue for more details)."
This comes from the Cities of Death article in the [soon to be] newest WD.
It appears that the Simulacrim is still in... and sounds like an upgrade option.
**edit 1 and 2** one last thing... I know it may have been put to rest earlier, but I wanted to confirm that the back page of the WD (posted in the previous thread) was indeed legit.
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Post by: da man!
wait, how do you knowal that!???
oh yeah, you play sisters of battle...
hey, how do you get those wierd little icons, like the necron face and stuff?
CATACHANS!
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Post by: filbert
da man! wrote:wait, how do you knowal that!???!
Is that a joke or a genuine question? Anyway...
Revarien wrote: (Source, Newest White Dwarf... hitting soonish)
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Post by: frgsinwntr
It appears they are taking their game from being an adult(ish) game.... to be a little kid lets have a party! game...
soon their will be upgrades if you invite a clown over... but only if he is wearing a red shirt and brings a pinata full of broken hopes and dreams...
But on a serious note.
I'm glad to hear some rumors... but i'll be annoyed if the game moves closer to appoc...
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Post by: pretre
The proposed strategem is either written for the previous edition or the changes to faith that were rumored are not the ones that will actually come with the WD Dex.
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Post by: wyomingfox
With how everything keeps coming down in points, we are almost there 
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Post by: morgendonner
frgsinwntr wrote:I'm glad to hear some rumors... but i'll be annoyed if the game moves closer to appoc...
Keep in mind this is just from the Cities of Death update article for 5th edition COD which is in the next WD issue.
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Post by: Magister187
pretre wrote:The proposed strategem is either written for the previous edition or the changes to faith that were rumored are not the ones that will actually come with the WD Dex.
How can you make that proclamation? It seems to fit in fine with what I read on how the new Faith rules might work. It still uses faith points, and a unit still has to successfully use the Act of Faith so the condition and the reward make sense. What am I missing?
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Post by: morgendonner
-Point retracted after rereading the stratagem-
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Post by: Kirika
This is a SOB specific strat for Cities of Death supplement to be released in White Dwarf. If you don't want to play Cities of Death you don't have to. Its like last years Planetstrike WD supplement. Totally optional. Do these supplements actually do all that well?
I did pick up some of the planetstrike terrain for my display board and for conversions.
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Post by: Gonzo_Neo
I dont know if that is a new info/rumour or was alredy posted in the previus post.
By Heresy-Online
A few sisters of battle Tidbits.
Some info about the sister’s codex coming out this fall:
The Sisters of Battle codex is taking a step away from the old codex’s focus on the Inquisition, and is now more of a codex focused on the Ecclesiarchy. The codex will represent the sisters much more truly to their roots in the fluff, and the non sister codex allies have been changed accordingly. More than many codexes’, the new Codex for sisters really feels like a brand new Codex.
Ok, so let’s start with the sisters themselves.
Redone in plastic, the sisters look great. While they won’t look out of place with the sisters of the past, they look much more like members of the church, though the over all look of the armor is very similar, if more ornate. The box set comes with enough plastic to make five sisters, but while we are only getting five girls per box, we are gaining a host of new options. The box contains bits to configure them as either regular sisters or Seraphim, and has tons of cool little extra bits to really make each unit unique. Gone are the Inquisition =I=’s, usually replaced with the fleur-de-lis. I counted eleven heads total, with five helmets, five without helmets and one with a gasmask / respirator type thing. Each of the eleven heads was a unique sculpt. The entire kit just really shows how far molds and model making has come since the days when our old sisters were cast, and while I would have been the first to scream heresy a year ago if you told me the sisters were changing, I have to say that the new ones really look fantastic.
I would like to take a moment to talk about their legs as well. I have always considered myself a modeler/painter first and a gamer second and one of the things that always bothered me about the old sisters were their legs. Like all metal miniatures, moding them was hard, and no sisters really had dynamic posses. The new legs have me really excited because they are very dynamic. I guess I would best compare them to the BA legs from their recent release. They really offer a lot of options in terms of modeling and are really one of the most exciting parts of the kit, in my opinion.
For weapon options the kit comes with a flamer, melt gun, storm bolter and pistol flamer as well as two guns I didn’t recognize including a weird rifle type thing and some gun that looked like a pistol from the 18th century with a torch bracket jammed on the end. There is a right and left handed version of both the pistol flamer and the other weird pistol. There were of course bolters / bolt pistols and both a power weapon and some chain swords. What I really liked about the weapons was their level of detail and individuality. Even though they are the same war gear a squad of space marines might field every piece of equipment screams sisters, and while easily recognizable is quite different from their marine counterparts. I want to say the weapons are smaller, but they might just be sleeker. One of the bolters comes with a strap.
The last thing I will mention about this new kit is that the jetpacks for the seraphim look much more like, well, like jet packs.
The Penitent engine is back in beautiful, mod-able plastic, and thankfully the remained true to its old design in many ways. It has four different options for its two close combat weapons, though I believe they are just aesthetics, and comes with parts to mount either flamer’s or melta’s under its arms. Looking at the kit, I believe its legs are possible similarly to the sentinels as it has a ball joint for its feet and little nubs / indents at the joint in its leg, which is very exciting since that will give us a lot more options when it comes to dynamic poses. Along with the weapons you also get several choices for drivers 3 icon badge things from the major sisters’ factions. A few other miscellaneous pieces like a scroll plate and such finish off the fun little extra bits.
The repressor is finally making an appearance in plastic as well. It looks similar to the FW one, but has the turret reworked and a different dozer blade. It comes with quite a few options to sister it up, from the same three icons I mentioned above, though slightly bigger, to numerous scrolls and of course options for sister doors. The driver has options for a helmeted head or a regular bobcat sister head with a little microphone thingy.
There is also a kit for a new priest, which I could best compare to the empire wizard kit. Fantasy players will know what I am talking about. There are numerous heads from the bald friar look to the crazy bearded look. Additionally we have options for plasma pistols, bolt pistols, and flamer pistols as well as a book arm and of course a gigantic chain sword. The model doesn’t have anything in the way of armor, though the chain sword looks almost big enough that he could hide behind it.
Well that’s all I have for you for now. Sorry I haven’t much in the way of rules, and that’s always the really exciting part, but I though some folks might like to know a little bit about the new models.
Cheers,
Sexxy Camera
I still have hope for basic plastic sisters, ¿ but no Heavy Flamer in SoB sprue ? Maybe now is "retributor only" or the heavy weapons will be still metal.
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Post by: Kroothawk
In the CoD article, ALL fractions get one new strategem. Picking one and starting a news thread (instead of posting it in the CoD thread) is a bit weird.
But to fill this thread with some real Sororitas rumour, here a small tidbit:
BramGaunt wrote:Astraeos wrote:The rumours are stating that it'll be a White Dwarf codex. I wouldn't expect any better than some fancy new special rules and brining he list up to date.
Afaik that's exactly what sisters will get, but that does not mean that there aren't some new miniatures in the future. Just to tell you: I was told that there won't be any sisters miniatures alongside with this WD release. They are not that far away, though.
(...)
None of what I said actually HAS to be true, it's just what I told. I'd be happy with new plastic sets, I just wanted to make people aware of the possibility that they may not be out that soon.
Not far away as in not that far away. Remember Warriors of Chaos, who had a WD List for about 6 months?
Current summary by Algorath over at Warseer:
Time frame:
August 2011 White Dwarf/ September second half (?)
Rules:
All Faith generating units get +6 invul save
All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos
No Repressor.
No Arbites
(5) HQ Choices:
Saint Celestine confirmed: "Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed."
Cannoness Confirmed
Confessor confirmed: Can bring henchmen in a unit, re-rolls failed to hit and wound for both (her?) and squad.
Elite:
Celestians: Cheaper than 15p, 2 attacks. re-roll to hit
Troop:
Battle Sisters: x10-20 squad with options for Flamers, Heavy Bolters, Meltaguns and Heavy Flamers,
Fast:
Dominion Squads: 4 Special Weapons Weapons become twin-linked
Seraphim: Below 15p; same stats/abilities, melta pistols are now Assault 2. Re-roll to Wound
Heavy:
Exorcist: Roughly same.
Penitent Engines: Same Stats, squadrons, 1d6 attacks w/ wounds generating additional attacks, ++6 i save.
Retributors Squad: Cheaper Weapons Rend(?)
Unsure:
Priests: Same
Repentia: have scout/infiltrate (?), fleet, "Cheaper close to SM cost. FNP, Rage, Fearless, 6+ invul, no transports" Still make attacks if killed.
FAITH
Faith is changing, seems:
Only faithful units can use Faith.
Units have individual Acts of Faith.
Faith powers work with 5+ on d6.
Faithful units generate 1d6 Faith "per turn".
Everything else is unsure ATM.
Models:
Resin:
Nothing yet.
Plastics:
Battle Sisters/Seraphim (x5 per box)
Pentient Enigne
Priest
Repentia (x10 per box)
Repressor (Vehicle)
WD Codex has no Repressor, but a new Repressor model is listed. Makes sense when, as BramGaunt says, Sororitas get their full Codex first half 2012 with all the models listed.
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Post by: Guildsman
Holy expensive units, Batman! If basic sisters come in sets of 5, it's going to be at least $60 to make a full unit! And I'm assuming that you'll need a lot of basic sisters.
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Post by: Medium of Death
Plastic Pentitent engine on the way?
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Guildsman wrote:Holy expensive units, Batman! If basic sisters come in sets of 5, it's going to be at least $60 to make a full unit! And I'm assuming that you'll need a lot of basic sisters.
Suddenly I feel less bad about buying my pewter squads of 10 for 50 USD.
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Post by: Guildsman
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Guildsman wrote:Holy expensive units, Batman! If basic sisters come in sets of 5, it's going to be at least $60 to make a full unit! And I'm assuming that you'll need a lot of basic sisters.
Suddenly I feel less bad about buying my pewter squads of 10 for 50 USD.
Did the math. A box of five plastic grey knights, with extra parts for halberds, warp packs, etc., costs $33 US. Same with the sanguinary guard and death company box sets, which are each also five marines with a bunch of wargear options. Assuming sisters come out before the next price rise, it'll cost at least $66 US for a full-strength squad. Currently, metal battle sisters are $17.25 for 3 figs, or 5.75 each. This means that a unit of 10 in metal would be $57.50 for 10, or $69 for 4 packages of 3. Turns out being rereleased in plastic will only make sisters more expensive to play.
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Post by: lordmoon
Guildsman wrote:Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Guildsman wrote:Holy expensive units, Batman! If basic sisters come in sets of 5, it's going to be at least $60 to make a full unit! And I'm assuming that you'll need a lot of basic sisters.
Suddenly I feel less bad about buying my pewter squads of 10 for 50 USD.
Did the math. A box of five plastic grey knights, with extra parts for halberds, warp packs, etc., costs $33 US. Same with the sanguinary guard and death company box sets, which are each also five marines with a bunch of wargear options. Assuming sisters come out before the next price rise, it'll cost at least $66 US for a full-strength squad. Currently, metal battle sisters are $17.25 for 3 figs, or 5.75 each. This means that a unit of 10 in metal would be $57.50 for 10, or $69 for 4 packages of 3. Turns out being rereleased in plastic will only make sisters more expensive to play.
That's ten sisters with nothing but bolters. Having options in the box counts for a lot.
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Post by: Marthike
Toooooooo expensive. How do they expect us to make squads of 10, grey knight squad is normally 5 but sisters of battle need alot more but still so expensive.
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Post by: SagesStone
Guildsman wrote:Holy expensive units, Batman! If basic sisters come in sets of 5, it's going to be at least $60 to make a full unit! And I'm assuming that you'll need a lot of basic sisters.
This is actually good news slightly, I'm expecting the usual $55 for 5 box here. But it beats buying them 3 at a time with no special weapons for $33 (special weapons $18-$23 extra  )... Kind of sad something like that seems like a price decrease...
If I can manage to find these online at prices similar to what Maelstrom could offer, I might actually buy GW stuff again. 
As I've always wanted to get them to apocalypse size, yet GW seems to not want my money at times.
I'll still stick to the units of 10 for the army though as any more and they don't fit into the metal boxes they treasure so much.
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Post by: Ratius
That's ten sisters with nothing but bolters. Having options in the box counts for a lot.
Couldnt disagree more, options are so meh to me, sure they are "nice" but when you are coughing up that much to make multiple squads of 10 I'd be quite happy with everyone being similar. In addition many people (not all) can easily salvage bits from other kits. I have a tonne of marine sprues with special/extra weapons that can be cannabilsed.
The excitement of this Sisters release is sadly tempered by these kit release decisions.
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Post by: SagesStone
The sad part is there is not much room on the existing SoB models to be able to do much in the way of weapon swaps. Flamers and meltas perhaps, but the others fairly less so.
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Post by: grizgrin
Agreed, it takes tools and will to weapon swap the current SoB models. Some have them, some don't.
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Post by: carmachu
n0t_u wrote:The sad part is there is not much room on the existing SoB models to be able to do much in the way of weapon swaps. Flamers and meltas perhaps, but the others fairly less so.
Some basic sisters you can, easily. The sister with the grenade pulling pin, and bolter to the side I've made into meltagun sisters. Plus the retributors can also be made into fun conversions.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Rumour has it that the 5 Sororitas box also includes parts for Celestrians and ... Seraphim!
"Yo dawg. I heard you won't start a Sororitas army because a full metal army is too expensive. We therefore designed a full plastic Sororitas army that is even more expensive. That's listening to the customers, baby!"
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Post by: Flashman
A basic box set of 10 standard sisters would have made more sense, with a upgrade box similar to Legion of the Damned.
I think the operative words here are "would have made more sense".
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Post by: Medium of Death
3 Sister's of Battle cost £10.75 on the GW website? I want a squad of ten.
Sister Superior = £7.70
Imaginifer = £8.20
Special weapon = £6.15
Heavy Weapon = £8.70
So I buy 4 blisters = £43
OR
I buy 2 blisters, Sister Superior, Imagnifier, 2 Special Weapons = £42
OR
Use your imagination, and create a combo of the above prices.
New box of 5 will probably be the same as the Sanguinary Guard - £20.50 (Agree?)
I still want 10.
So I buy 2 boxes = £41
If you factor in buying from discount sites, (which you can't do with the current sisters, as far as i'm aware) it's not that bad.
It's not more expensive, it's really the same price for easier material and more variation.
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Post by: andrewm9
Currently any Sister toting a heavy weapon is 14 dollars US. That's almost as much as the curret pack of 3. You can't tell me that a plastic pack with with all the weapons that makes 5 will cost more than it currently does to make a sqaud of 10 with its heavy flamer and meltagun. Basically to make 3 squads of Sisters currently it costs 229.20 assuming a heavy flamer and meltagun or flamer along with a veteran in each sqaud. This accounts for the fact that there are 3 sisters to pack and it makes use of 7 packs of 3 sisters each. Plastic kits of 5 Sisters at 33$ (Grey Knight prices) each will cost you 198$ total. I doubt it will even cost that much if they don't make it cover every conceivable unit in the codex (like Seraphim). I bet it will be more like 28 or 30 dollars in plastic. If its $28 that will save you an additional 30 dollars. It also leaves you with tons of additional bits for conversions.
Plastic with options will be saving you money on a new army. They will not cost more than the current metal ones unless a serious repacking takes place. If we still had the box of 10 with a flamer and stormbolter along with a vet it woudl be a different story. Obviously I'd prefer a pack of 10 in plastic but given GW's line of thinkign I doubt we will get it.
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Post by: androcles138
Is it actually confirmed that they will be coming out with a 5 box, or is that still rumored?
Reason i ask is that from the rumors i've heard, your basic girls will be getting a points break, making them farther from an MEQ than they already are. Seeing as the armies with recent 'dexes that aren't MEQ (DE, IG, Bugs) have been getting boxes of 10 (12 in the bugs' case). Wouldn't it stand to reason that with a further points reduction these would be the model lines to compare to? A good example, as well as the newest one, of this line of thinking would be the DE kabbalite box. Kabbalites currently weigh in at 9 a model, and with witch hunters 'dex sisters coming in at 11, if they drop the sisters even 1 point they're going to be extremely close to that level.
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Post by: pretre
androcles138 wrote:Is it actually confirmed that they will be coming out with a 5 box, or is that still rumored?
As with most rumors, nothing is confirmed until we see a pre-order.
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Post by: htj
pretre wrote:androcles138 wrote:Is it actually confirmed that they will be coming out with a 5 box, or is that still rumored?
As with most rumors, nothing is confirmed until we see a pre-order.
Yeah, 24 hours before they come out, most likely.
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Post by: SagesStone
htj wrote:pretre wrote:androcles138 wrote:Is it actually confirmed that they will be coming out with a 5 box, or is that still rumored?
As with most rumors, nothing is confirmed until we see a pre-order.
Yeah, 24 hours before they come out, most likely.
That would be the advanced pre-order in which the product is just shown as a large red question mark, with such fancy names as "NEW PRODUCT - 001". 
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Post by: htj
n0t_u wrote:htj wrote:pretre wrote:androcles138 wrote:Is it actually confirmed that they will be coming out with a 5 box, or is that still rumored?
As with most rumors, nothing is confirmed until we see a pre-order.
Yeah, 24 hours before they come out, most likely.
That would be the advanced pre-order in which the product is just shown as a large red question mark, with such fancy names as "NEW PRODUCT - 001".
Unless you're a White Dwarf subscriber. Then you can pre-order it one week later than everybody else.
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Post by: pretre
Can we keep the witty GW commentary down and talk about the SOB rumors?
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Post by: htj
We can try, but no promises.
How reliable is this Algorath whose rumours Kroothawk reposted? Has he been on the money before, or have they come out of nowhere?
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Post by: pretre
Algorath didn't produce those rumors, afaik. He compiled them into one post from a variety of sources. As with any rumors, you should take them with a giant pile of salt. Even worse, because he accumulated rumors from multiple sources it increases the chance that his are wrong.
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Post by: htj
Hmm, that's hardly encouraging. A pity, really, because they look nice to me. But then, that's often the sign of a wishlist.
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Post by: SagesStone
Was actually done with the "witty" banter about GW policies myself.
I'm just as interested in these rumors as I want to find out if I'll be able to continue to build up my army more and how much of it will become worthless, conversion wise at least
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Post by: htj
I'm inclined to believe the model rumours. Something about the way they were written, including the author not knowing what an inferno pistol was but describing it anyway, rang true. Could just be convincing tosh, though.
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Post by: Element206
Nice, any update on the release of new SOB?
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Post by: Kroothawk
Confirmed WD Codex August and September, BramGaunt suggests a real Codex not far away (first half 2012).
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Post by: andrewm9
Kroothawk wrote:Confirmed WD Codex August and September, BramGaunt suggests a real Codex not far away (first half 2012).
If this is true why bother releasing a WD codex now as thats less than a year away at most? Its really a waste of effort and the WD space could be given to something else. I have no doubt that a WD dex is on the way but I'd be incredulous as to release another dex in less than a year. Thats a shockign amount of attention to show the neglected Sisters of Battle.
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Post by: Ixquic
If it is like the Warriors of Choas army book it is probably to reduce the amount of models people are buying they won't be able to use when the actual codex is released. It's basically confirmed that both allies and inquisitor units will no longer be part of the Sisters of Battle army so a hold over codex will let people know the direction of the force and to plan somewhat accordingly.
I know I would be pissed if I bought a Karamazov model and a bunch of Stormtrooper units a month before the codex made them illegal. Obviously there's going to be some point of time in which someone gets screwed (for instance the guy that bought said models before the white Dwarf codex rumors became more solid) but the earlier they put that information out there the less the damage is overall.
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Post by: Marthike
Ixquic wrote:If it is like the Warriors of Choas army book it is probably to reduce the amount of models people are buying they won't be able to use when the actual codex is released. It's basically confirmed that both allies and inquisitor units will no longer be part of the Sisters of Battle army so a hold over codex will let people know the direction of the force and to plan somewhat accordingly.
I know I would be pissed if I bought a Karamazov model and a bunch of Stormtrooper units a month before the codex made them illegal. Obviously there's going to be some point of time in which someone gets screwed (for instance the guy that bought said models before the white Dwarf codex rumors became more solid) but the earlier they put that information out there the less the damage is overall.
They want your money, if they can help it they won't tell you untill the day it comes out so lots people would have bought expensive metal models or lots unusable models.
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Post by: fox-light713
andrewm9 wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Confirmed WD Codex August and September, BramGaunt suggests a real Codex not far away (first half 2012).
If this is true why bother releasing a WD codex now as thats less than a year away at most? Its really a waste of effort and the WD space could be given to something else. I have no doubt that a WD dex is on the way but I'd be incredulous as to release another dex in less than a year. Thats a shockign amount of attention to show the neglected Sisters of Battle.
As it has been stated the WFB WoC had a WD codex then 6 months later had their new codex. Much like the WD update to the WoC this update to the SoB is to Remove the allies rules, remove inquisitors so that it is in line with the GK codex, and update the points costs of all the units to be more in line with the 5th edition. In addition also looking at the rumors they might also be including changes to the core rules for SoB like acts of faith to set it up for the eventual book codex release.
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Post by: andrewm9
fox-light713 wrote:As it has been stated the WFB WoC had a WD codex then 6 months later had their new codex. Much like the WD update to the WoC this update to the SoB is to Remove the allies rules, remove inquisitors so that it is in line with the GK codex, and update the points costs of all the units to be more in line with the 5th edition. In addition also looking at the rumors they might also be including changes to the core rules for SoB like acts of faith to set it up for the eventual book codex release.
That (point costs, ally rules) could have been accomplished in a 1 page FAQ update really. Honestly if the Faith rules work as presented in the rumors, Sisters will be taking a serious nerf unless there are additional special rules we haven't seen yet.
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Post by: Alpharius
And as for 'why' - well, to seel copies of WD at (x) dollars each.
The development work on the list is mostly complete.
Why not generate more sales for a 'magazine' that I'd bet even GW realizes isn't selling what it used to sell?
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Post by: Omegus
Kirika wrote:This is a SOB specific strat for Cities of Death supplement to be released in White Dwarf. If you don't want to play Cities of Death you don't have to. Its like last years Planetstrike WD supplement. Totally optional. Do these supplements actually do all that well?
I did pick up some of the planetstrike terrain for my display board and for conversions.
I bet a lot of that stuff will be rolled into the main rules for 6th edition. Spearhead especially.
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Post by: pretre
andrewm9 wrote:fox-light713 wrote:As it has been stated the WFB WoC had a WD codex then 6 months later had their new codex. Much like the WD update to the WoC this update to the SoB is to Remove the allies rules, remove inquisitors so that it is in line with the GK codex, and update the points costs of all the units to be more in line with the 5th edition. In addition also looking at the rumors they might also be including changes to the core rules for SoB like acts of faith to set it up for the eventual book codex release.
That (point costs, ally rules) could have been accomplished in a 1 page FAQ update really. Honestly if the Faith rules work as presented in the rumors, Sisters will be taking a serious nerf unless there are additional special rules we haven't seen yet.
I am fairly confident with the rules that were leaked that we will see the ability to roll multiple dice per faith act you want to accomplish. This will actually make faith pretty reliable. I'm also pretty confident that there are more faith acts that we haven't seen that will balance things out. I am a bit of an optimist though.
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Post by: htj
Your optimism isn't entirely unwarranted. We normally get only half the story with these kinds of rumours, so it's quite possible that you're right. I reckon a fairly big change is coming for AoF, but I couldn't hazard a guess as to what exactly it might be.
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Post by: SkaerKrow
I find it very doubtful that GW will shoehorn Celestians, Battle Sisters and Seraphim into the same box. It's more likely that we'll see Battle Sisters squads released in boxes of ten models (probably at the US $41.25 price point), and a second, five model box set that can be built as either Celestians or Seraphim (for around US $33.00).
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Post by: gr1m_dan
Will be interesting to see how they've done AoF.
At the moment I love them (although only two get a lot of use) and are about the only thing going for the Sisters atm. I love that feeling when you see a load of 6's come up after Divine Guidance.
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Post by: Ixquic
Marthike wrote:Ixquic wrote:If it is like the Warriors of Choas army book it is probably to reduce the amount of models people are buying they won't be able to use when the actual codex is released. It's basically confirmed that both allies and inquisitor units will no longer be part of the Sisters of Battle army so a hold over codex will let people know the direction of the force and to plan somewhat accordingly.
I know I would be pissed if I bought a Karamazov model and a bunch of Stormtrooper units a month before the codex made them illegal. Obviously there's going to be some point of time in which someone gets screwed (for instance the guy that bought said models before the white Dwarf codex rumors became more solid) but the earlier they put that information out there the less the damage is overall.
They want your money, if they can help it they won't tell you untill the day it comes out so lots people would have bought expensive metal models or lots unusable models.
Eh I'm as much of a hater on GW's crappy sales policies as the next guy but honestly I don't think they want to screw people in such a grandiose fashion. There's a difference between hiding new models as to keep the sales of older crappy ones steady as long as possible and straight up selling stuff they know people won't be able to use in half a year. The fact they released the Warriors of Chaos WD list proves this point since they could have just continued to sell the old book and let people build soon to be illegal lists with expensive models.
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Post by: bloodaxegit
Thanks whoever locked my thread. I told you they were working on them!
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Post by: andrewm9
Ixquic wrote:
Eh I'm as much of a hater on GW's crappy sales policies as the next guy but honestly I don't think they want to screw people in such a grandiose fashion. There's a difference between hiding new models as to keep the sales of older crappy ones steady as long as possible and straight up selling stuff they know people won't be able to use in half a year. The fact they released the Warriors of Chaos WD list proves this point since they could have just continued to sell the old book and let people build soon to be illegal lists with expensive models.
Current Sisters' models aren't going to be selling any more than they are which is to say not at all. The new WD codex won't change that especially if people think it will all change again in 6 months. Hence my question "what's the point?" They don't not sell because they have bad rules, they're not selling becuase people already have all the models they want or are too expensive. For instance I've got more than 200 sisters and I surely don't want more unless they give me something cool and new or heck just plain new with models more than 12 years old for my basic troop. For new people, when your basic units cost almost double that of a Space Marine unit, why bother when there are better cheaper models to be used in other armies that actually get support.
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Post by: Ixquic
It's to conceivably stop people from buying Lemon Russes, Inquisitors, storm troopers, assassins, etc when the new codex will no longer allow them.
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Post by: haroon
Ixquic wrote:It's to conceivably stop people from buying Lemon Russes, Inquisitors, storm troopers, assassins, etc when the new codex will no longer allow them.
GW would never do that. That is not their M.O. all of the sudden they care more about customer support then selling models lol?
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Post by: andrewm9
Ixquic wrote:It's to conceivably stop people from buying Lemon Russes, Inquisitors, storm troopers, assassins, etc when the new codex will no longer allow them.
Thats kind of stretching it I think and I'm willing to bet GW has never cared about that before. Again I don't think that this new codex will make people run out and buy a new army so accidentally buying a single Leman Russ probably isn't corssing GW"s mind at all. If GW cared about the army and the players of it, they wouldn't have broken up the miniature boxed sets or 10 sisters and 5 seraphim and stopped selling them almost 2 years ago. I guess what I am driving at is that a new Sisters codex will not be released in 6 months.
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Post by: Voldrak
People will definitely buy new models when they become available.
Heck I would probably buy models if they came out finecast and I have close to 150 myself as well as over a dozen tanks.
You have people out there with 10000-15000 points of Space Marines, Orks, Imperial guards... You will have people with just as many points in Sisters of Battle and you will definitely see a lot more of them once we have more than the few generic poses that are currently available.
My personal long term goal is to build up a Preceptory. It's a long shot, but have to set yourself ambitious goals if you're going to accomplish anything in life
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Post by: andrewm9
Voldrak wrote:People will definitely buy new models when they become available.
Heck I would probably buy models if they came out finecast and I have close to 150 myself as well as over a dozen tanks.
You have people out there with 10000-15000 points of Space Marines, Orks, Imperial guards... You will have people with just as many points in Sisters of Battle and you will definitely see a lot more of them once we have more than the few generic poses that are currently available.
My personal long term goal is to build up a Preceptory. It's a long shot, but have to set yourself ambitious goals if you're going to accomplish anything in life
True enough. With all the current holes in the Sisters codex though I've kind fo limited myself to about 6 or 7 housand points worth of Sisters as the holes in the codex are magnified at larger point scales such as in Apcoalypse. I love to play Apoc games, but Sisters have only 2 formations from Imperial Armour and one really lame stratagem. As a result I supplement them with IG armor and heavy weapons sqauds. They end up workly nicely and the Sisters stiffen the IG's morale issues. I want no more Sisters in metal and I if I did I wouldn't want to buy more at current prices if they come out in Finecast. Theprice is imply too high even on Ebay.
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Post by: The Dwarf Wolf
That is so GW...
So, My regular squads are formed by 10 Sisters with the same weapons, some heavy/assault weapons, and a Superior.
Ok, then they charge me the regular price for 10 girls (33 Dollars), but sell me only 5 of them. Well they are not so bad, as they put in that box everything i need to build 5 girls of any type in codex. So, when i build my 10 Girls squad i will have 10 Beautifull Sisters, and a lot of spare bitz exactly suited to build 10 more sisters of another squad type, except i dont have enough bodyes... Man, they are soooooo KIND. Love you GW!!!!
No really, that is smart... One of the fallowing will happen:
Some guys will quit, felling like betrayed after a lot of time...
Some other guys will make their own molds of female bodys in resin, not hard nowaday with silicone and such...
Chapter House or some other company will produce bits and bodyes for "replacement", wich will end up cheaper...
Anyway, GW make money, becouse a lot of teenagers will buy the new bitch nurses...
Seriously? Look at the past, what where the most loved releases from GW in the last 2 years?
Space Wolves Pack (10 man for regular marines + Lots of Extra Bits)
Space Wolves Terminator (5 termie regular squad + lots of extra bits)
GK Terminators (5 termie regular squad + lots of extra bits)
Dark Eldars (who are all regular sized squads, with lots of extra bits)
What are the most hated of them? (in plastic 40k)
GK Power Armored (i dont need to say why, right?)
What of those models they are seeking?
Thats is So GW...
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Post by: Omegus
Easier still, buy torsos en masse from eBay bitsellers.
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Post by: Kingsley
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:What are the most hated of them? (in plastic 40k)
GK Power Armored (i dont need to say why, right?)
If you think power-armored GK are a "hated" release, you're delusional. People are buying tons of them.
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Post by: The Dwarf Wolf
Omegus wrote:Easier still, buy torsos en masse from eBay bitsellers.
They will be sold for higher prices...
About the GK. Ppl are? So im am delusional, forget all i say and sry for make you lose your time... But really, what people are doying with the spare backpacks and close combat weapons?
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Post by: SagesStone
Kroothawk wrote:Confirmed WD Codex August and September, BramGaunt suggests a real Codex not far away (first half 2012).
For what it's worth, with two SoB books in BL coming out in December it seems kind of likely.
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Post by: jake
Pistols: model can use it as additional close combat weapon or use its Strength in close combat but gains no bonus for another ccw, if pistol is AP 1,2 or 3, attacks are Rending (2)
You know, if this rumor from the 6th edition rumor thread is true, Seraphim are going to be pretty neat. STR 8 rending attacks in close combat?
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Post by: Sersi
jake wrote:Pistols: model can use it as additional close combat weapon or use its Strength in close combat but gains no bonus for another ccw, if pistol is AP 1,2 or 3, attacks are Rending (2)
You know, if this rumor from the 6th edition rumor thread is true, Seraphim are going to be pretty neat. STR 8 rending attacks in close combat?
Wow... I like that idea, it would give Seraphim and the Sisters Superiors in the troop squads the equivalent of a pseudo-power fist. That rules doesn't help marines, but for sisters it would be epic. Celestians with a bolt pistol and CCW would actually be decent. Ofcourse the cost of pistols will likely go up as well, assuming that any of these rumors are true in the first place.
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Post by: doubled
God willing that this will be a temp upgrade and a full codex is coming down the lines, I went through the WD codex with my BA, I hope Sisters is put together better than that was.
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Post by: dkellyj
Just a heads up on models. I was at the FLGS today chatting about the WD Dex and how that was going to kill half my Army (dropping allies) and make it unplayable due to not having enough girls to fill the gaps.
With an evil grin I was told not to worry because I should have plenty to paint at Christmas time.
No info on WHAT will be available, but with at least some type of basic sister model it should be easy enough to convert them.
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Post by: SabrX
Interesting.. it's just like the 5 Grey Knights box with Interceptor option. They Grey Knight models at least have the ability to switch backpacks while maintaining their feet and arms. Seraphims historically wield dual Pistols while Battle Sisters are armed with Boltguns. This won't make it easy switching between Seraphims and Battle Sisters.
I look forward to seeing the plastic models. This is good news, thanks for sharing!
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Post by: Sersi
I'm seriously doubting that rumor. New plastics along with a WD Codex? It doesn't really make any sense. The only reason to do a WD codex is because SOB line is being pushed back. If the delay is because the plastic are not ready, we obviously won't be getting miniatures with the WD codex. If the delay is because they are moving up the released date for the Sixth edition, then they sit on the SOB plastics, possibly indefinitly. Afterall they've held back some plastic kits for years before releasing them.
What I expect is a lackluster "get you by" codex, and nothing in the way of miniature support. It's not like we haven't seen this before. I doubt we'll even get finecast support. But even if they do the cost is bound absurd, just look at Sternguard Veteran or the Plague Marine Boxes.
Well at least I have a another 1-2 years to work on my other armies. 
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Post by: SabrX
Seeing the defects in the new finecast and higher cost makes me wish they will continue being release as metal. However, GW is slowly phasing out their metal to finecast to reduce production and materials cost.
Seraphims are already insanely expensive. If rumors regarding their decease points cost is true, I will be extremely disappointed if they don't come out with a 5 Seraphim plastic box with the same quality and cost of the Dark Eldar Scourges. I doubt many players will be willing to pay $120 - $140 for a squad of 10 metal or fincast Seraphims.
Then again this is Games Workshop, a company that's digging its own grave by ignoring their customer wishes and increasing prices for both plastic and fincast.
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Post by: Davor
Oh come on, people. What does GW sell? Miniatures or rules?
Why can't miniatures be sold in a WD release? GW doesn't make much money of codices releases so maybe this way, giving a "free" codex in WD might get people interested into starting a new army then. alot of people may not buy or get into SoB if they had to buy the codex but might if the codex if Free and then start collecting it, then in 6 months to 2 years will buy a full fledged codex then.
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Post by: Eumerin
Davor wrote:Oh come on, people. What does GW sell? Miniatures or rules?
Why can't miniatures be sold in a WD release?
Because they didn't release miniatures the last couple of times they had a WD list?
Because if GW had everything ready then they'd be doing a proper codex release instead of a 'get you by' product?
Because a proper codex has a lot more publicity and fanfare than a WD codex, which generates more enthusiasm for the new models?
I could go on...
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Davor wrote:Oh come on, people. What does GW sell? Miniatures or rules?
Why can't miniatures be sold in a WD release? GW doesn't make much money of codices releases so maybe this way, giving a "free" codex in WD might get people interested into starting a new army then. alot of people may not buy or get into SoB if they had to buy the codex but might if the codex if Free and then start collecting it, then in 6 months to 2 years will buy a full fledged codex then.
That's the source of the problem, GW makes good minis but their rules are very often complete rubbish. Like the GK codex that needed a FAQ just to be playable at competitive levels. GW says the rules come secondary but that's a sure way to ruin the hobby. It doesn't matter if a model looks awesome if it has completely broken rules, people simply will not field it and rumours float about the unit being bad so people dont buy it either.
All GW dexes should be free PDFs and updated once a year in December. The rulebook I could accept that you have to pay for but the codicies themselves should be free as this would encourage people to try out new armies, if there are problems they could easily and quickly be fixed and they could update them more often. In todays environment where we expect hotfixes within 24 hours of them being discovered going 5+ years before solving a problem is just unacceptable. We pay a premium price for what GW claims are premium products but I just dont see it, we get mediocre rules that if broken wont get fixed for many years.
GW should either outsource their codex writing, have public betas for people to playtest and break their codicies. Heck I could break the GK codex within 1 hour of reading it! I should not be able to do this, the rules should be clear cut with no need to ask questions. GW are often vague when it comes to rules and sometimes goes completely against established rules and fluff when later commenting on it with an FAQ.
From what I've read it seems GW makes a loss with every Codex they make, they should be free PDFs with the option for a print on demand codex if you really want one.
Another problem is the way the dexes are written, you have to flip back and forth between different sections because the rules are so spread out. When I turn to the back of the codex I want to look at rules, not painted models.
/End Rant
I really hope the WD dex is a step in the right direction but knowing GW I'm sure that just wont be the case. I'm desperately looking forwards to it because as a Sisters player I've been so starved for anything these past few years I'm actually starting to think the WD is a good idea.
As for models we might get a finecast HQ since those will have to be made anyway but I doubt we will get anything else. I just hope someone will get this WD as early as the July one.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Some new tidbits from Captain Ventris over at Warseer:
Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in
Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
(...)
Also on an off-topic note, some minor waves are supposed to be released for various armies with 6th ed. One of note that he mentioned was a new eldar jetbike kit with parts to make either 3 guardian jetbikes or 3 Shining Spears.
Take with whatever salt you feel is necessary.
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Post by: pretre
Kroothawk wrote:The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
Is his source Ric Romero?
I keed, I keed.
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Post by: Olaf the Hairy
5 figures with lots of decoration, with bolters or pistols, with or without jump packs and with lots of fancy bits sounds like seraphim to me.
They might have all those options in future. It would make sense to allow them to tool up for close combat if they really have 2 attacks, and a Cannoness with a jump pack could be accompanied by jumping celestians.
It would be crazy expensive to build an army if you have to disgard half the contents of the sprue for basic units.
That's my guess anyway.
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Post by: Pouncey
andrewm9 wrote:Ixquic wrote:
Eh I'm as much of a hater on GW's crappy sales policies as the next guy but honestly I don't think they want to screw people in such a grandiose fashion. There's a difference between hiding new models as to keep the sales of older crappy ones steady as long as possible and straight up selling stuff they know people won't be able to use in half a year. The fact they released the Warriors of Chaos WD list proves this point since they could have just continued to sell the old book and let people build soon to be illegal lists with expensive models.
Current Sisters' models aren't going to be selling any more than they are which is to say not at all. The new WD codex won't change that especially if people think it will all change again in 6 months. Hence my question "what's the point?" They don't not sell because they have bad rules, they're not selling becuase people already have all the models they want or are too expensive. For instance I've got more than 200 sisters and I surely don't want more unless they give me something cool and new or heck just plain new with models more than 12 years old for my basic troop. For new people, when your basic units cost almost double that of a Space Marine unit, why bother when there are better cheaper models to be used in other armies that actually get support.
That last one is actually the precise reason I didn't start a Sisters of Battle army until several years ago, though it's hard to remember exactly when, but it was at some point after the price for a Tactical Squad hit 40 dollars Canadian. At that point, it was only a 10 dollar difference between a Tactical Squad kit and the no-longer-existing 10-woman Sisters of Battle boxed squad. Previously the gap had been much more significant. However, since the boxed squad has gone away, the cost has gotten prohibitive again, but more so, with Tactical squad boxes costing less than half of what a reasonable 10-woman Battle Sister Squad does. 45 dollars compared to 93 dollars, respectively. I'm glad that I picked up 5 of the Sisters boxed squads while they were available, it's probably saved me a load of cash.
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Post by: Sersi
Kroothawk wrote:Some new tidbits from Captain Ventris over at Warseer:
Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in
Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
(...)
Also on an off-topic note, some minor waves are supposed to be released for various armies with 6th ed. One of note that he mentioned was a new eldar jetbike kit with parts to make either 3 guardian jetbikes or 3 Shining Spears.
Take with whatever salt you feel is necessary.
A holdover until the Edition you say....par for the course for SOB players. A rushed and poorly tested codex, you say...didn't see that coming. Nice....so we won't be seeing a real SOB of Codex until 2013 or later; after Codex Space Marines, Codex Chaos Space Marines, other Space Marines, etc...etc... <mind you I love space marines, but still>
On a positive note, maybe in the intervening years GW will actually give some thought as to how to expand the army theme and improve the army list...naaahh. I'm going back to my daemons...hmmph!
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Post by: Kroothawk
As said, BramGaunt puts the SoB real Codex first half 2012. WoC also got a WD army book half year before the real army book.
BTW GW is still unprepared to add real content to the WD, so give them a bit of time
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Post by: SabrX
Kroothawk wrote:As said, BramGaunt puts the SoB real Codex first half 2012. WoC also got a WD army book half year before the real army book.
BTW GW is still unprepared to add real content to the WD, so give them a bit of time
Time? This isn't the first time GW released a WD codex. It's like history repeating itself and GW never learning from their mistakes!
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Post by: Ixquic
Kroothawk wrote:Some new tidbits from Captain Ventris over at Warseer:
Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in
Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
(...)
Also on an off-topic note, some minor waves are supposed to be released for various armies with 6th ed. One of note that he mentioned was a new eldar jetbike kit with parts to make either 3 guardian jetbikes or 3 Shining Spears.
Take with whatever salt you feel is necessary.
I certainly hope he means the White Dwarf codex was rushed since I don't think I can maintain interest in the hobby for another 10 years of a mediocre untested book.
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Post by: Tabitha
The WD codex serves two purposes. The first, along with the books, is to build anticipation for the codex, and secondly to play test some of the rules changes on a large scale. Lots of the stuff from the new codex will not be in the WD codex.
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Post by: htj
The WH book came out at the end of 3rd ed. didn't it? So, we won't be getting another proper Codex until 6th ed.? Two full editions with no proper Codex. Nice.
This WD one had better be good. As it is, they're making me buy two of their crappy magazines if I want to use it. One I could understand, but two is so blatantly money-grabbing that it's sickening. It's also more incovenient. How handy, to have to keep refering to two seperate magazines.
Bah! Bah, I say to you GW, bah!
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Post by: Ixquic
I think the first issue is all story stuff so you could probably get by just buying the second if you want to save money and only want the rules.
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Post by: htj
I've heard that the first is all the rules, and the second the list with points costs. I hope you're right, Ixquic, I'd much prefer it that way.
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Post by: Ixquic
If that's true that's pretty lame. Carrying around two magazines is cumbersome at best :(
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
They will both be needed to be bought, it's GW we are talking about.
First will contain all the unit entries and special rules, the second the points costs and wargear upgrades.
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Post by: frgsinwntr
htj wrote:The WH book came out at the end of 3rd ed. didn't it? So, we won't be getting another proper Codex until 6th ed.? Two full editions with no proper Codex. Nice.
This WD one had better be good. As it is, they're making me buy two of their crappy magazines if I want to use it. One I could understand, but two is so blatantly money-grabbing that it's sickening. It's also more incovenient. How handy, to have to keep refering to two seperate magazines.
Bah! Bah, I say to you GW, bah!
GW did this with the Blood Angels... but they also made it so you could DL it for free from their site...
Just saying
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Post by: Starfarer
htj wrote:The WH book came out at the end of 3rd ed. didn't it? So, we won't be getting another proper Codex until 6th ed.? Two full editions with no proper Codex. Nice.
This WD one had better be good. As it is, they're making me buy two of their crappy magazines if I want to use it. One I could understand, but two is so blatantly money-grabbing that it's sickening. It's also more incovenient. How handy, to have to keep refering to two seperate magazines.
Bah! Bah, I say to you GW, bah!
You do realize in every case of a WD Codex they have been made available as a .pdf for free on the GW website shortly after the release in WD.
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Post by: Sersi
Ixquic wrote:I think the first issue is all story stuff so you could probably get by just buying the second if you want to save money and only want the rules.
Background which will undoubtedly be a copy paste of existing fluff. And yes I will buy it anyway.
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Post by: htj
@frgsinwntr and Cadaver
Perhaps it will. Precedent isn't guarantee, and policy changes have been made extensively in the intervening time. If they do, well, good on them. But I'd rather have a book I can carry around, than a PDF I'd have to print and bind myself. Sure, you could say that these complaints are petty, but having been waiting for nearly two editions for a new Codex, I feel justified in niggling at the little stuff.
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Post by: pretre
htj wrote:@frgsinwntr and Cadaver
Perhaps it will. Precedent isn't guarantee, and policy changes have been made extensively in the intervening time. If they do, well, good on them. But I'd rather have a book I can carry around, than a PDF I'd have to print and bind myself. Sure, you could say that these complaints are petty, but having been waiting for nearly two editions for a new Codex, I feel justified in niggling at the little stuff.
If it makes you feel any better, the history of SOB codexes is pretty similar. Since I started, there was:
- 2nd Edition SOB Codex (~1997)
- Black Book Codex (~1998-1999?) (Meaning you played using the list in the Main Rulebook, which was SUPER simplified)
- White Dwarf Mini-Codex (~2000 - 2001) (first real appearance of faith points, had redemptionists instead of frateris, etc.)
- Codex: Chapter Approved 2001 (When they assembled all the WD rules and mini codexes into one book, same as mini dex)
- Codex: Witch Hunters (~2003)
- Chapter Approved: Zealots (Added redemptionist style unit back to codex as optional addition, probably because I was a sad panda)
- Codex: Witch Hunters, Second Printing (don't remember) (Updated a few tiny points)
- Codex: Witch Hunters, PDF (year or two ago) (Removed allies from just the PDF version, retained ability to use allies in physical versions)
So this isn't even the first time that SOB have had a WD stopgap codex between editions. And the Codex: Chapter Approved 2001 codex was probably my favorite SOB list yet (although some of that is just fond recollections).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man, I wish I still had a copy of Codex: Chapter Approved 2001. I just want to compare.
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Post by: htj
It doesn't, I'm afraid pretre. I've been playing SoB almost as long as you and, if anything, I was hoping their sketchy support would see some rectification. I mean, Grey Knights got their own Codex before a new Sisters one? Just disappointing all over, really.
Do you remember which WD it was in? I tend to hoard when it comes to wargaming stuff, I might still have it kicking around.
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Post by: pretre
Ooh, did some research.
Apparently they added Sacred Rites in WD232, which later grew into Faith (It was rolled per unit with faithful character.)
WD232 wrote:Sacred Rites
By Gav Thorpe
Before the fighting begins, the Sisters of Battle kneel in prayer, offering their thanks to the Emperor and asking for his protection and guidance. The Battle Sisters are invigorated and emboldened by their prayers, instilled with grim courage and determination to overcome their foes.
Any SoB infantry units (i.e. not vehicles) may take part in these Sacred Rites at the start of a battle.For each unit, roll a dice on the following table to see what effect their prayers have. Higher ranking members of the Ecclesiarchy inspire greater acts of selfless sacrifice and dedication, and so add to the dice roll, as listed below (only apply the highest modifier):
Character Sacred Rites bonus
Canoness +3
Celestian Superior +2
Veteran Sister Superior +1
Note: If an independent character leads a squad in the Sacred Rites, the character must be set up with the squad at the start of the battle.
If the character leading the squad in the Sacred Rites subsequently leaves the unit, any benefit from the Sacred Rites is lost for the rest of the battle - the unit will think they are being abandoned by the Emperor! Note that this does not happen if the character is killed whilst with the unit - such characters become martyrs to the cause! The unit loses its Sacred Rites if another character subsequently leads the unit.
The results of the Sacred Rites apply to all members of the squad and any characters who start the battle with them, including the character leading the Sacred Rites.
SACRED RITES TABLE
D6 Score Effect
1 No effect.
2 The unit never counts as being outnumbered in an assault.
3 The unit cannot be pinned.
4 The unit ignores any negative modifiers on morale and pinning tests.
5 The unit may re-roll any failed morale check.
6 The unit may always attempt to regroup, with no restrictions.
7 The unit never falls back and is automatically assumed to pass any morale check it is required to make.
8 In close combat, the unit always hits on a 3+, regardless of relative Weapon Skills.
9 All models in the unit add +1 to their Attacks for the duration of the battle.
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Post by: Zefig
No clue about the mini-codex, but the zealots were in 292. It had a bunch of other witch hunters stuff in it too, I think they got a few more models around that time. Maybe not though. It was before my time, anyway.
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Post by: pretre
Agh, forgot about the Citadel Journal character updates too. So many mini releases.
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Post by: andrewm9
pretre wrote:
So this isn't even the first time that SOB have had a WD stopgap codex between editions. And the Codex: Chapter Approved 2001 codex was probably my favorite SOB list yet (although some of that is just fond recollections).
Man, I wish I still had a copy of Codex: Chapter Approved 2001. I just want to compare.
That codex wasn't all that good. Sisters were BS 3 and Faith wasn't as strong. The armory wasn't as good and there was no armor better than 11 on vehicles. Exorcist missiles were AP3. Its was lots of little things making the codex a little bit weaker though it did have the Redemptionists in it and an additional troop unit.
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Post by: pretre
andrewm9 wrote:
That codex wasn't all that good. Sisters were BS 3 and Faith wasn't as strong. The armory wasn't as good and there was no armor better than 11 on vehicles. Exorcist missiles were AP3. Its was lots of little things making the codex a little bit weaker though it did have the Redemptionists in it and an additional troop unit.
Thanks, andrewm9! I need to find a scan or a used copy one of these days. The main thing that I remember was the act of faith that let me get back up from being dead. I ran two max size redemptionist mobs and boy did that tick people off. "Oh no, you killed 15 of my redemptionists. 10 of them get back up and charge you. That's 30 attacks and 15 chainfists and 15 exterminators at Init 8. Don't forget 6's rend. "
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Post by: Wehrkind
As a side note, I would be in favor of GW releasing WD codexes for EVERY new army book a year or so ahead of time to allow play testing new rules and units. Sort of a free Beta test for things before they lock it into a codex that will remain as such for a few years most likely. Nearly every codex seems to have one or two little things that are broken or stupid (or both) that players suss out pretty quickly, and this would be a good way to do it while generating excitement and sales for the new army.
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Post by: pretre
Or just open Beta Test all codexes by PDF on their website.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Well, yes, but I am trying to suggest marginal improvements, not ideal worlds Right now ANY open testing would be fine, and they could pass it off to management as increasing sales of WD in addition.
However, I think your idea would be ideal, along with having their own forums where they put up the PDFs and have threads dedicated to discussing the high and low points.
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Post by: Kanluwen
htj wrote:It doesn't, I'm afraid pretre. I've been playing SoB almost as long as you and, if anything, I was hoping their sketchy support would see some rectification. I mean, Grey Knights got their own Codex before a new Sisters one? Just disappointing all over, really.
Grey Knights also were only fully fleshed into an army with Codex: Daemonhunters...which was released before Witchhunters.
I'm not sure why it's so disappointing that an older book was updated before a newer one.
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
2E Sisters of Battle codex also had the Sacred Rites
D6
1 No effect
2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration of the battle.
3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy
4 The squad adds +1 to its Leadership for the duration of the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10
5 The squad hates the enemy
6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on a D6
7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and Break tests it is required to make
8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it pays no heed to its own safety. The squad may ignore the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad or vehicle you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad and the closest target
9 Once in the battle, at the end of the shooting phase, the squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.
You rolled on a per squad basis.
This is very similar to the Dark Eldar combat drugs, I would like to see them return together with Acts of Faith.
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Post by: pretre
MadCowCrazy wrote:2E Sisters of Battle codex also had the Sacred Rites
This is very similar to the Dark Eldar combat drugs, I would like to see them return together with Acts of Faith.
Maybe together with acts of faith, but definitely not back to the way 2nd worked (replacing AoF). There is a very fine line between Combat Drugs and the synergy they bring to DE and Possessed/Daemonhost syndrome. I think we need to avoid the second and emulate the first in some ways.
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Post by: htj
Kanluwen wrote:htj wrote:It doesn't, I'm afraid pretre. I've been playing SoB almost as long as you and, if anything, I was hoping their sketchy support would see some rectification. I mean, Grey Knights got their own Codex before a new Sisters one? Just disappointing all over, really.
Grey Knights also were only fully fleshed into an army with Codex: Daemonhunters...which was released before Witchhunters.
I'm not sure why it's so disappointing that an older book was updated before a newer one.
It's because Sisters were their own independent army since back in 2nd ed, and Grey Knights were just an allied squad, so I'd like them to get their own Codex before the Knights. Like I said, petty, but another grit of sand in the eye.
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Post by: pretre
Didn't GK have a WD mini-Codex in 3rd?
That would mean that really SOB only had a codex and GK didn't from the end of 2nd through the beginning of the C: CA period.
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Post by: Eumerin
Cadaver wrote:You do realize in every case of a WD Codex they have been made available as a .pdf for free on the GW website shortly after the release in WD.
iirc, it took GW at least seven months to get the Nightspinner rules posted online. If the "proper" codex isn't right around the corner, then yes the WD dex will go online. Though it might take a while. If the "proper" codex is just around the corner, then GW might not get around to posting the WD list.
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Post by: midget_overlord
Eumerin wrote:
iirc, it took GW at least seven months to get the Nightspinner rules posted online. If the "proper" codex isn't right around the corner, then yes the WD dex will go online. Though it might take a while. If the "proper" codex is just around the corner, then GW might not get around to posting the WD list.
It was about as long (or a little less) to get the blood angels white dwarf dex online as well. At least it came with a FAQ when they finnaly did make it available.
My copy with the nightspinner and spearhead rules is falling apart from everyone borrowing it.
They always lie in white dwarf when they say "go online for more info" as it usually takes them minimum a month to do it.
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Post by: grizgrin
Kroothawk wrote:Some new tidbits from Captain Ventris over at Warseer:
Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now...
Kroothawk wrote:As said, BramGaunt puts the SoB real Codex first half 2012...
Well if the WDex is a holdover til 6th, and the full dex is 6th compatible, then 6th is coming out soon after the full dex for SoB? I haven't been following any rumors on 6th, but thats what this sounds like.
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Post by: Brother SRM
grizgrin wrote:
Well if the WDex is a holdover til 6th, and the full dex is 6th compatible, then 6th is coming out soon after the full dex for SoB? I haven't been following any rumors on 6th, but thats what this sounds like.
Rumor is that 6th will be out late next summer or early fall. If Sisters are indeed coming in the first half of 2012, their new codex will be out by then.
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Post by: Dysartes
Kanluwen wrote:Grey Knights also were only fully fleshed into an army with Codex: Daemonhunters...which was released before Witchhunters.
There was also the list for the Ordo Malleus published in Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, well before the Adepta Sororitas turned up - wasn't Codex: Imperialis their first appearance?
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Post by: Lynata
Just to add to this:
pretre wrote:If it makes you feel any better, the history of SOB codexes is pretty similar. Since I started, there was:
- 2nd Edition SOB Codex (~1997)
- Black Book Codex (~1998-1999?) (Meaning you played using the list in the Main Rulebook, which was SUPER simplified)
- White Dwarf Mini-Codex (~2000 - 2001) (first real appearance of faith points, had redemptionists instead of frateris, etc.)
- Codex: Chapter Approved 2001 (When they assembled all the WD rules and mini codexes into one book, same as mini dex)
- Codex: Witch Hunters (~2003)
- Chapter Approved: Zealots (Added redemptionist style unit back to codex as optional addition, probably because I was a sad panda)
- Codex: Witch Hunters, Second Printing (don't remember) (Updated a few tiny points)
- Codex: Witch Hunters, PDF (year or two ago) (Removed allies from just the PDF version, retained ability to use allies in physical versions)
So this isn't even the first time that SOB have had a WD stopgap codex between editions.
It's even funnier because there was a WD 'dex before the "proper" 2E book. White Dwarf #211 had the very first rules for SoB ever (accompanying the release of the first SoB miniatures), though they were already pretty similar to the proper Codex that followed soon after.
That said, Battle Sisters still had T4 back then. 
... registered here at last, after all that lurking and just reading
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Post by: pretre
Hmph. Wasn't aware of that one, it was before my time.
Welcome to Dakka, Lynata!
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Post by: Dr Mathias
I suppose I should quit lurking as well... I've been playing Sisters ever since they had stats published! I've even enjoyed playing them in all their various incarnations.
Their first appearance in illustrated form, along with some background information, is on one of the last pages of the original Rogue Trader rulebook. The picture shows a Sororita wasting an impure Space Marine from the Rainbow Warriors chapter
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Post by: Claimh_Solais
So do you think we will se some sisters modells in August?
or is august reservd for somthing else? more fantasy 
seems that 2011 is a pale year for 40K
we got 1 codex ,grey knigths ...and I dont count this stupid WD dex
but we can hope more will come
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Post by: Lynata
pretre wrote:Hmph. Wasn't aware of that one, it was before my time.
Before mine as well - I just made it a hobby to hunt down every single bit of hard canon about the Sororitas that exists, and I stumbled over WD #211 just last week. 
Thanks for the welcome!
Dr Mathias wrote:Their first appearance in illustrated form, along with some background information, is on one of the last pages of the original Rogue Trader rulebook. The picture shows a Sororita wasting an impure Space Marine from the Rainbow Warriors chapter
Indeed, that page also mentions fleets of Sororitas voidships - though as far as I recall those have been "scaled down" to rapid deployment transports in later editions. Curse the Decree Passive!
And now a welcome to you, too!
Claimh_Solais wrote:So do you think we will se some sisters modells in August? [...] seems that 2011 is a pale year for 40K
Personally, I'm not expecting new miniatures prior to December, November at the earliest, and am prepared for seeing them together with the new Codex in 2012. That said, I still like this year, as "Faith & Fire" will finally get a sequel. And there's a SoB audiobook slated for release as well!
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
If there is a release with the WD codex it will just be some finecast stuff, probably things that will be in both the GK and SoB codex like henchmen. Deathcult, Arcos and maybe Daemonhosts I'd put my money on. Servitors as well unless they are already in failcast.
We might get St Celestine or a Canoness in failcast but even that is pushing it I think.
It all depends on what WD intends with this WD release, if it's just a placeholder release and Necrons were delayed then we wont get anything, finecast at max.
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Post by: Lynata
Part of me hopes that the miniatures will actually be delayed further until GW hopefully fixes its Finecast quality issues. The more I hear about it the more insecure I feel about them.
And that's in addition to my fears regarding them possibly having done something silly to the new SoB minis such as giving them high heels or whatever.
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Post by: Holy_doctrine
I freaking called the five sisters per box, in an unhappy, I don't want this to happen, kind of way.
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Post by: pretre
@Lynata: Heh. Didn't the 2nd Ed SOB art have chunky high heels? (Edit: Yep, John Blanche art.)
@Holy_doctrine: CSB. Did you also predict that prices will go up over time?
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Post by: Lynata
pretre wrote:@Lynata: Heh. Didn't the 2nd Ed SOB art have chunky high heels? (Edit: Yep, John Blanche art.)
Just that single one picture, ever.
And still it stuck with everyone.
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Post by: Ascalam
Whatever is wrong with John Blanche is no little thing
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Post by: pretre
Actually, I'm looking at page 19 of C: WH (Battlegear of the Adepta Sororitas) and it looks like she has some built in heels. Check out the angle of her left foot.
Armored sole inserts?
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Post by: Brother SRM
Overly sexualized minis in my game about fantasy spacemen? Why I never!
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Post by: Lynata
pretre wrote:Actually, I'm looking at page 19 of C: WH (Battlegear of the Adepta Sororitas) and it looks like she has some built in heels. Check out the angle of her left foot.
Hmm, possibly. Yeah. Still, way less silly than that cover version.
John Blanche did a lot of supercool drawings, but his women all look kind of crazy and not really suitable for warfare.
Luckily all of this never creeped into the actual miniatures. Imho, the best "Sister Shoes" were the asskicker boots from the Celestian artwork.
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Post by: ian1920
Brother SRM wrote:Overly sexualized minis in my game about fantasy spacemen? Why I never!
BTW, I sure hope they bump up the sex appeal for the new sisters, otherwise those darn Dark Eldar are gonna have all the hot babes.
BTW, I like how in WD 374 they talk about a wych cult called the Pain Eternal that roam the galaxy destroying holy sites and is therefore bitter enemies with the Sisters of Battle. Would make a cool secondary army...
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Post by: androcles138
Ok so here's for a bit of the old over sharing...
I know everyone's expecting us to get boned by the new WD 'dex, but i'm kind of excited.
I just got me a job after being amongst the unemployed for a few months. Here i thought i was going to fall behind when our points got slashed, but now i gotta say BRING ON THE Bolter Bitches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Serephim, and, and, and, Exorcists, and, and, and Battle Sisters, and, and, and Confessors, and, and, and... Ok no more Monster for me kk byebye
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Post by: Marthike
I like how gw sexualisd the sisters.
It's different, also it's 40k anything can happen. All the guys wearing no armour and has been mutilated into killing machines, not the best tactic going to war without clothe lol
anyway nothing wrong with heels, atleast they can stand on some heretic nuts lolololol
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Post by: Lynata
I'd really, really prefer if they retain their realistic, professional militant look. That means heavy armour (except for Repentia ofc) and no heels. For me, this is a deal-breaker concerning any new minis.
In the end, they are soldiers, not the Imperium's go-go dancers. For obvious visuals you'd have the Dark Eldar, where that kind of attire actually fits the background.
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Post by: aosol
androcles138 wrote:Is it actually confirmed that they will be coming out with a 5 box, or is that still rumored?
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Post by: Omegus
Lynata wrote:John Blanche did a lot of supercool drawings, but his women all look kind of crazy and not really suitable for warfare.
So you mean his art captured reality perfectly?
/ducks 
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Post by: dumplingman
i just wished we had some confirmation one way or the other whether or not seraphim can be troops
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Post by: htj
dumplingman wrote:i just wished we had some confirmation one way or the other whether or not seraphim can be troops
And hopefully not by having to take a special character. I hate that nonsense.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
ian1920 wrote:
BTW, I like how in WD 374 they talk about a wych cult called the Pain Eternal that roam the galaxy destroying holy sites and is therefore bitter enemies with the Sisters of Battle. Would make a cool secondary army...
Aye, I'll be making a force based off that cult once Sisters are properly re-released and Aurelia gets herself a SoB army. 
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Post by: Tails9095
ian1920 wrote:Brother SRM wrote:BTW, I like how in WD 374 they talk about a wych cult called the Pain Eternal that roam the galaxy destroying holy sites and is therefore bitter enemies with the Sisters of Battle. Would make a cool secondary army...
Alright, I'm interested, do you have any info online about this? I can't find the WD and google failed me :X Thanks
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Post by: grizgrin
Brother SRM wrote:grizgrin wrote:
Well if the WDex is a holdover til 6th, and the full dex is 6th compatible, then 6th is coming out soon after the full dex for SoB? I haven't been following any rumors on 6th, but thats what this sounds like.
Rumor is that 6th will be out late next summer or early fall. If Sisters are indeed coming in the first half of 2012, their new codex will be out by then.
Thanks, Bro SRM.
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Post by: Lynata
Because GW has a habit of making SoB the last Codex shortly before a new edition is released? :(
I'd hope that the real book would come after the 6E CRB, and the WD 'dex being a 5E stopgap until then. Possibly testing a few new features of 6E.
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Post by: Brother SRM
Lynata wrote:Because GW has a habit of making SoB the last Codex shortly before a new edition is released? :(
I'd hope that the real book would come after the 6E CRB, and the WD 'dex being a 5E stopgap until then. Possibly testing a few new features of 6E.
It would definitely be written with 6th ed in mind, like the Chaos Space Marine and possibly Ork codices were written with 5th in mind.
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Post by: Lynata
Brother SRM wrote:It would definitely be written with 6th ed in mind, like the Chaos Space Marine and possibly Ork codices were written with 5th in mind.
Aye, that sounds reasonable. It's just given that we seem to be getting two Codices in short order it would seem more logical to have one deal with the end of this edition (whilst trying out some stuff for 6E), and the next one being "full 6E".
Written with 6E in mind is close to, but still not quite the same as a release once 6E rules were made final. Which I assume won't happen shortly before print? How exactly was it with the CSM and Ork Codices? I assume it also comes down to how 6E will differ from 5E - from all the rumours we're hearing it'll be quite a lot. It'd be a real shame if we get a new book after almost a decade, only to have half of it become outdated and replaced with some online update months later. Doesn't sound logical, but I've seen GW do other strange things.
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Post by: Sersi
Just a thought on the rumored Plastic Priest Kit. Why make it in the first place given that Sisters need those box releases for actual Sister models? I mean we already have the confessor as an HQ choice, and we're supposedly getting the Arco-flagellants as a henchman choice. So, what's point of taking a priest? I'd be pretty ridiculous if they kept the unlocking unit rule for them, the Confessor's presence should enough to unlock Penitent Engines anyway.
Their rules have always been fail, their like a poor man's Chaplin. Always, counting as moving is a hefty penalty for re-rolls to hit considering the priest point cost. The only units he had synergy with were the Arco-flagellants, Repentia, and Zealots. I like my crazy battle-friars as much as the next guy, but I can't see this as anything but a lost opportunity. Sure you could make a Confessor with it, and with IG could be seen as a dual use kit. Ofcourse, they could pull a Matt Ward and give them awesome rules, like a Furious Charge bubble or something.
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Post by: Brother SRM
Lynata wrote:How exactly was it with the CSM and Ork Codices?
They were some of first codices to have the current layout (no armory) almost all equipment ending in fives and zeroes for points costs, and cheap transports. Rhinos (starting with the Dark Angels codex) dropped down from 50 points to the point value they're at now.
Sersi wrote:Their rules have always be fail, their like poor man's Chaplin's.
Ugh, my grammar, she is dying.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Brother SRM wrote:Lynata wrote:How exactly was it with the CSM and Ork Codices?
They were some of first codices to have the current layout (no armory) almost all equipment ending in fives and zeroes for points costs, and cheap transports. Rhinos (starting with the Dark Angels codex) dropped down from 50 points to the point value they're at now.
Let's not forget that DA, CSM and Eldar were the -only- three of a fabled new design theory that saw everything become more generic as a whole with an emphasis on -you- painting things and counts-as for odd units that no longer could really exist - for example, Lesser Daemons instead of god specific ones or conveniently counting a Sonic Weapon on a vehicle as something else.
Then they went and scrapped this whole theory with 5th edition and Daemons 
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Post by: TEMPERUS MAXIMUS
pretre wrote:androcles138 wrote:Is it actually confirmed that they will be coming out with a 5 box, or is that still rumored?
As with most rumors, nothing is confirmed until we see a pre-order.
Proof:
1: GW is a company
2: Companies thrive on money
3: GW tried 5/box sales with the Grey Knights
4: The Grey Knights were very popular (Don't know why)
5: GW made a lot of money from the GK released in 5/box
C: Anything and Everything they can get away with will be released in 5 per box.
Next GK release a box of Terminators will cost a portion of your soul.
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Post by: Leo_the_Rat
And you know for a fact that #4 and 5 are true how?
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Post by: carabine
Leo_the_Rat wrote:And you know for a fact that #4 and 5 are true how?
I'll vet this one, because I've watched people at multiple stores purchase dozens of boxes of GK's both PA and Terminators. I mean is was like crack guy walking out of the store with no less than 10 boxes of GK's, and that was on multiple occasions. Now I was sitting around on saturday helping a new player starting with GK's
htj wrote:dumplingman wrote:i just wished we had some confirmation one way or the other whether or not seraphim can be troops
And hopefully not by having to take a special character. I hate that nonsense.
Y'know I'm really torn on this. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing and I'd love to debate it another time but. I remember in 4th ed marines could take a chapter trait that allowed either assault or devastator squads to be taken as elites. We lost that in 5th and I miss it. Now we have specific characters that allow elites to be taken as troops, Corteaz, Grimnar, Dante, Crowe, Draigo etc. I for one would rather have basic characters or options to fill this roll. Like if you had a space marine captain and gave him a heavy bolter then you could use devastators as troops. Personally I think that GW has been playing too much warmachine and gotten the idiotic idea that special characters NEED to be part of the game. I don't want special characters, I don't need special characters. (well except for my purifiers list) I love the idea of certain OPTIONAL rules altering how a list or a codex can be played but I loathe the fact that those rules are character specific.
Anyways back on topic. I hope that seraphim stay as fast attack. I mean it only makes sense, everyone else's jump troops have to stay there why wouldn't sisters? But all the same I'd hope that they get a character or rule that can change them over to troops, seraphim models have always been too cool not to use, I'm waiting eagerly to see what they get this release.
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Post by: andrewm9
carabine wrote: Anyways back on topic. I hope that seraphim stay as fast attack. I mean it only makes sense, everyone else's jump troops have to stay there why wouldn't sisters? But all the same I'd hope that they get a character or rule that can change them over to troops, seraphim models have always been too cool not to use, I'm waiting eagerly to see what they get this release.
You know that Blood Angels have Assault Marines as troops right and there is no special character involved. I agree with you though, there ought to be something to help make them troops even if it is a special character. Many 5th edition armies have something to spice up the troop slots or have more than 2 troop types why should Sisters be an exception to that?
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Post by: carabine
andrewm9 wrote:carabine wrote: Anyways back on topic. I hope that seraphim stay as fast attack. I mean it only makes sense, everyone else's jump troops have to stay there why wouldn't sisters? But all the same I'd hope that they get a character or rule that can change them over to troops, seraphim models have always been too cool not to use, I'm waiting eagerly to see what they get this release.
You know that Blood Angels have Assault Marines as troops right and there is no special character involved. I agree with you though, there ought to be something to help make them troops even if it is a special character. Many 5th edition armies have something to spice up the troop slots or have more than 2 troop types why should Sisters be an exception to that?
Last I checked Blood angels have had assault marines as troops since their 3rd ed codex, originally and arguably still it's the main reason to play blood angels. I consider this an exception I did overlook in my statement but I stand by my arguement as a 90% true. I hope sisters get a second troop thats a halfway point between troop and elite, like a bit better gear, maybe more CC capable but still with the same profile.
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Post by: andrewm9
carabine wrote:Last I checked Blood angels have had assault marines as troops since their 3rd ed codex, originally and arguably still it's the main reason to play blood angels. I consider this an exception I did overlook in my statement but I stand by my arguement as a 90% true. I hope sisters get a second troop thats a halfway point between troop and elite, like a bit better gear, maybe more CC capable but still with the same profile.
My hope is that we actually get a Frateris Militia that could be decent in hth. Perhaps they would be like conscripts but with worse armor (6+ save). I'd make them foot based but with something like Holy Rage and las pistol equivalent and a close combat weapon to represent mob weapons like they did with the old zealots. If you give them a priest they might actually do some damage.
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Post by: VikingScott
Medium of Death wrote:Plastic Pentitent engine on the way?
Just as I buy a freaking metal one before they stop doing them. *grumble grumble*
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Post by: carabine
VikingScott wrote:Medium of Death wrote:Plastic Pentitent engine on the way?
Just as I buy a freaking metal one before they stop doing them. *grumble grumble*
You know it's going to be a dreadknight with a sister or a penetent as the driver right?
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Post by: VikingScott
carabine wrote:VikingScott wrote:Medium of Death wrote:Plastic Pentitent engine on the way?
Just as I buy a freaking metal one before they stop doing them. *grumble grumble*
You know it's going to be a dreadknight with a sister or a penetent as the driver right?
It probably will be.
But I feel the penitent should probably be a monstrous creature rather than a vehicle maybe...
But my precious =I= aren't involved so I lack interest. I hope new penitents models will be as spiffy and nice looking as the old ones or better and hopefully as plastic a damn sight easier to put together.
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Post by: pretre
carabine wrote:Leo_the_Rat wrote:And you know for a fact that #4 and 5 are true how?
I'll vet this one, because I've watched people at multiple stores purchase dozens of boxes of GK's both PA and Terminators. I mean is was like crack guy walking out of the store with no less than 10 boxes of GK's, and that was on multiple occasions. Now I was sitting around on saturday helping a new player starting with GK's
Although your personal experience at one retail location was quite compelling, I believe you will find that he was asking if there was any documented facts surrounding those two assertions.
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Post by: carabine
pretre wrote:carabine wrote:Leo_the_Rat wrote:And you know for a fact that #4 and 5 are true how?
I'll vet this one, because I've watched people at multiple stores purchase dozens of boxes of GK's both PA and Terminators. I mean is was like crack guy walking out of the store with no less than 10 boxes of GK's, and that was on multiple occasions. Now I was sitting around on saturday helping a new player starting with GK's
Although your personal experience at one retail location was quite compelling, I believe you will find that he was asking if there was any documented facts surrounding those two assertions.
Multiple as in 3 or more stores in the raleigh/durham/chapel hill triangle as well as 2 stores in upstate NY and another in PA. In 4 of these stores I had confirmation either from seeing it myself or from other players as no less than 5 people buying enough to build 1-2 2000pt forces as well as secondary models and then there were players adding models into existing forces, and people buying models just to enjoy. Again this is not just one experience at one location, this is multiple firsthand experiences amongst multiple stores, along with multiple 2nd hand accounts. With how tight lipped GW is getting about EVERYTHING I serious doubt we could EVER pry accurate sales numbers out of them, so word of mouth and what we see ourselves is about all we're going to get. There also was ATC in Chattanooga, TN where I saw no less than 3 other GK armies only a month after their release, and hearing directly from at least 3 other players that they were building armies but had yet to have sufficient practice with them as to bring them to a tourny.
Of course as I write this I realize it's all anecdotal evidence but then again anything you ever find out from GW is a 50/50 toss up between "slightly overinflated in GW's intrest" and "blatant lie"
So trust that I've seen or taken account of a lot of people in a lot of places buying alot of GK's or don't either way, I have seen the tide, and I am ready for when marines conquer the game totally, are you?
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Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I think a lot of that buying is "flavor of the month". I'm pretty sure that the same thing happens everytime a new codex is released. The only way to tell for sure is if you keep seeing that influx after 6 months. BTW in the store that I frequent I don't think that GK sold any better than other armies (except for 1 person who wanted to start a GK army).
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Post by: streamdragon
carabine wrote:So trust that I've seen or taken account of a lot of people in a lot of places buying alot of GK's or don't either way, I have seen the tide, and I am ready for when marines conquer the game totally, are you?
Hahaha wow... dramatic much?
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
streamdragon wrote:carabine wrote:So trust that I've seen or taken account of a lot of people in a lot of places buying alot of GK's or don't either way, I have seen the tide, and I am ready for when marines conquer the game totally, are you?
Hahaha wow... dramatic much?
Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines.
Sisters of Battle will be more power armour.
Compare to Orks, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Tyranids and Necrons.
8 Bolter and Power Armour armies against 7 non Bolter and PA armies. Now consider that 5 of these Bolter and Power Armour armies are essentially the same army with different traits
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Post by: Phototoxin
They **might** strip SoB down to 4+ and have 3+ on only the elite units..
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Post by: htj
Phototoxin wrote:They **might** strip SoB down to 4+ and have 3+ on only the elite units..
That's just idle speculation though, right? Please tell me that's just idle speculation! I'm having palpatations here!
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Post by: streamdragon
DarkStarSabre wrote:streamdragon wrote:carabine wrote:So trust that I've seen or taken account of a lot of people in a lot of places buying alot of GK's or don't either way, I have seen the tide, and I am ready for when marines conquer the game totally, are you?
Hahaha wow... dramatic much?
Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines.
Sisters of Battle will be more power armour.
Compare to Orks, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Tyranids and Necrons.
8 Bolter and Power Armour armies against 7 non Bolter and PA armies. Now consider that 5 of these Bolter and Power Armour armies are essentially the same army with different traits
I'm sorry, you honestly think people with nonmarine armies are just going to suddenly give them up and switch to marines? Really? That marines will "conquer the game totally"?
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Post by: pretre
And on this note, we move right on to another SoB topic lock for OT. Thanks, guys.
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Post by: MrTau
They propably realese the WD codex cuz there will be a new codex after the new rulebook, wich is coming soon. There are sooo many miniatures that need updating so they cant do it in one go. Or GW are just being stupid and unlogical, wich isnt unormal. I am happy for the new codex cuz ive wanted to start them, but they have unadjusted rules and all-part metal models.
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
MrTau wrote:They propably realese the WD codex cuz there will be a new codex after the new rulebook, wich is coming soon. There are sooo many miniatures that need updating so they cant do it in one go. Or GW are just being stupid and unlogical, wich isnt unormal. I am happy for the new codex cuz ive wanted to start them, but they have unadjusted rules and all-part metal models.
Sisters of Battle have always had their codex released just before a new edition. Sisters 2E book was invalidated like 3 months after release by the 3E ruleset release, then with the Witch Hunter codex 4E popped up a few months later. I'd be happy if SoB were the first codex release of 6E but if rumours are correct it will be the first codex released next year and probably the last one before 6E unless Tau gets one as well.
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Post by: ThirdUltra
MadCowCrazy wrote:MrTau wrote:They propably realese the WD codex cuz there will be a new codex after the new rulebook, wich is coming soon. There are sooo many miniatures that need updating so they cant do it in one go. Or GW are just being stupid and unlogical, wich isnt unormal. I am happy for the new codex cuz ive wanted to start them, but they have unadjusted rules and all-part metal models.
Sisters of Battle have always had their codex released just before a new edition. Sisters 2E book was invalidated like 3 months after release by the 3E ruleset release, then with the Witch Hunter codex 4E popped up a few months later. I'd be happy if SoB were the first codex release of 6E but if rumours are correct it will be the first codex released next year and probably the last one before 6E unless Tau gets one as well.
Wait....I thought the Sisters of Battle codex for 2nd edition was released circa September of '97 and 3rd edition rule-set was fall of 98.
Which would mean they had a full year before being relegated to minor ignomity in 3rd edition.
They had a Chapter Approved update some time after that, then in 03 they got the Witch Hunter 'dex.
I just remember it that way though......could be wrong lol!
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Post by: IdentifyZero
Anyone have any new info or just posting up debates about old editions? ^.^
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Post by: Kroothawk
Guess why I haven't posted in this thread the last 18 days
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Post by: Begel Dverl
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Post by: Melissia
So, there's been WD scans now. This assumes these are legitimate scans of the WD bestiary of the Sisters of Battle. Because I do not want to link to said scanned images (courtesy to the one who gave me the info, I'm sure you can find it if you look hard enough), I'm not making a new thread. I guess if the scanned images thing offends anyone the mods will delete this post, dunno.
Suffice it to say, Every Single Bad Thing I've had to say about this codex was absolutely right. They aren't even releasing plastics-- the codex just re-used old miniatures, art, and photos of miniatures from previous codices. No new units, three units were merged into one unit (crusaders, arco-flagellants, death cult are now one squad type where you purchase X amount of each). A couple old characters from second edition brought back; Kyrinov looks incredibly generic and not actually all that helpful to the army, but Jacobus shows promise and looks to be powerful enough to justify taking. Seraphim and Celestians have been nerfed to I3. All units have precisely ONE Act of faith and pretty much all of them suck except for the Repentia power. Which is useless if they're killed in shooting (like they usually are) instead of in assault. Acts of Faith no longer scale with army size, you get D6 no matter how many units you have-- making Battle Sisters all the worse for it. Immolators lost their fire point and the ability to fire after moving full out with TLHFs, so now they really are just razorbacks. And useless.
Only a few good notes: Bolt pistols and frag/krak are standard. Shield of Faith applies to vehicles, and they get smoke for free (but no searchlights). Seraphim shoot with each pistol individually, but they lose their special hit and run rule and must now make initiative tests to use hit and run... at their new reduced initiative of I3. The Penitent Engine gets extra attacks for unsaved wounds it makes, so it hits harder, but it's still AV11 open topped so it'll again not actually make it into combat anyway, especially since it's now slower than in the previous codex (holy rage was superior to rage). Celestians gain an extra attack, but their act of faith sucks for assaulting (+1 strength is nice, but fearless ISN'T on I3 / T3 models). Canoness gains +1 WS, but with the loss of the armoury I doubt we'll be able to use it--a nd she's still merely I4. Living Saint Celestine gains in WS, BS, and Initiative, but she's still a T3 model without eternal warrior. Her sword' wounds easier against high T models... which to her is anything other than a guardsman, whom she wounds LESS often now than before. And it's no longer master-crafted.
So every single good thing I had to say about it was countered by a bad thing. Overall, I was right, it does blow JUST as much as I was expecting... but I'm still sorely disappointed about that fact. And the sad part, it's not over yet. Now we get to see what stupid points costs they're going to give and waht we lost from losing our armoury. Even if they're priced appropriately (five internets says they won't be) the codex will still be the worst one in fifth edition by FAR.
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Post by: SabrX
I've also seen the scans. I won't post the link. If anyone is interested, the key word is "Drachnon".
Most of the rumors from BoK have been dead on. Overall, the new Sisters got a huge nerf in assault, moral, but a slight boost to shooting.
I eagerly a wait the 2nd half due in September. Hopefully, new wargear and points cost reduction will mitigate nerfs.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Kyrinov was whup-ass in 2nd edition.
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Post by: augustus5
I wouldn't freak out about there not being any new models yet. I assumed when I heard about the WD codex that any new models wouldn't come until the book codex releases. I don't remember any new units released alongside the BA WD codex when it came out, but then when the BA book codex came out they got a lot of new models, so sisters will probably follow suit.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Given that there is not a single miniature release accompanying this WD Codex and not a single new unit, I believe BramGaunt that this WD Codex is only a temporary quick fix (no allies, no inquisition units) and that there will be a full Codex with a full miniature release next year. I don't think that the rumours about the new models are completely made up and that this WD Codex is meant as the answer to Sororitas fans waiting for 7 years.
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Post by: nels1031
Melissia wrote:So, there's been WD scans now. This assumes these are legitimate scans of the WD bestiary of the Sisters of Battle. Because I do not want to link to said scanned images (courtesy to the one who gave me the info, I'm sure you can find it if you look hard enough), I'm not making a new thread. I guess if the scanned images thing offends anyone the mods will delete this post, dunno.
Suffice it to say, Every Single Bad Thing I've had to say about this codex was absolutely right. They aren't even releasing plastics-- the codex just re-used old miniatures, art, and photos of miniatures from previous codices. No new units, three units were merged into one unit (crusaders, arco-flagellants, death cult are now one squad type where you purchase X amount of each). A couple old characters from second edition brought back; Kyrinov looks incredibly generic and not actually all that helpful to the army, but Jacobus shows promise and looks to be powerful enough to justify taking. Seraphim and Celestians have been nerfed to I3. All units have precisely ONE Act of faith and pretty much all of them suck except for the Repentia power. Which is useless if they're killed in shooting (like they usually are) instead of in assault. Acts of Faith no longer scale with army size, you get D6 no matter how many units you have-- making Battle Sisters all the worse for it. Immolators lost their fire point and the ability to fire after moving full out with TLHFs, so now they really are just razorbacks. And useless.
Only a few good notes: Bolt pistols and frag/krak are standard. Shield of Faith applies to vehicles, and they get smoke for free (but no searchlights). Seraphim shoot with each pistol individually, but they lose their special hit and run rule and must now make initiative tests to use hit and run... at their new reduced initiative of I3. The Penitent Engine gets extra attacks for unsaved wounds it makes, so it hits harder, but it's still AV11 open topped so it'll again not actually make it into combat anyway, especially since it's now slower than in the previous codex (holy rage was superior to rage). Celestians gain an extra attack, but their act of faith sucks for assaulting (+1 strength is nice, but fearless ISN'T on I3 / T3 models). Canoness gains +1 WS, but with the loss of the armoury I doubt we'll be able to use it--a nd she's still merely I4. Living Saint Celestine gains in WS, BS, and Initiative, but she's still a T3 model without eternal warrior. Her sword' wounds easier against high T models... which to her is anything other than a guardsman, whom she wounds LESS often now than before. And it's no longer master-crafted.
So every single good thing I had to say about it was countered by a bad thing. Overall, I was right, it does blow JUST as much as I was expecting... but I'm still sorely disappointed about that fact. And the sad part, it's not over yet. Now we get to see what stupid points costs they're going to give and waht we lost from losing our armoury. Even if they're priced appropriately (five internets says they won't be) the codex will still be the worst one in fifth edition by FAR.
Not to sound rude or anything, but what did you honestly expect from a White Dwarf codex? They always seem to be bare bones affairs with few OP rules and no new miniatures to support it. Isn't the purpose of the WD "codex" just to hold people over until the real thing is released? Sort of like a promise that they are not forgotten.
I guess if it does in fact suck, you can take solace in the fact that Warriors of Chaos, Wood Elves, Blood Angels and arguably, Necrons, all had half arsed white dwarf "army lists" and the codex that they eventually released bore no resemblence to the White Dwarf version, and aside from 5th and 8th edition sticking it hard to Necrons and Wood Elves respectively, they were/are all competitive armies.
Again, its worth saying that I'm not patronizing you, just saying that you really shouldn't have expected anything groundbreaking.
Edit: Its also worth mentioning that I can empathize with you. I started a Blood Angels army in excitement for the WD release a few years ago and was completely underwhelmed to the point of aborting the project, and your critique probably mirrors many gamers thoughts on their respective White Dwarf army list.
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Post by: bhsman
I got the impression from reading the Faith rules that there will be more in the second, but more generic ones/powers that every unit can use. Also woah at all vehicles getting a 6++.
The Retributor and Dominion powers look pretty amazing, too.
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Post by: Melissia
SabrX wrote:[snip]
Indeed.
Morale: No more BoSL is very likely with the removal of the Armoury. Light of the Emperor no longer exists for squads outside of Battle Sisters, so the apparently elite units can no longer regroup, only the common battle sisters. Canoness and retinue are given Stubborn, which isn't as good as BoSL (And hints that the BoSL really is gone). Sisters are now more vulnerable to pinning as well. There is no conversely here, this was an utter nerf, with nothing given back (we'll know this for sure come next WD).
Assault: Sisters assault units universally went from I4 to I3, except for the Canoness and Saint Celestine. Fearless is used to buff Sisters by the Celestian Act of Faith and Kyrinov, which means due to them being T3/I3 they'll just get slaughtered (due to the way fearless works). Celestians lose Holy Hatred. Conversely, all Sisters units gain bolt pistols and frags, and Celestians have two attacks now, but it none of it does enough to make up for the loss of I4 on Celestians, and since when would frags make a difference if I3 models are assaulting most dedicated assaulters anyway?
Mobility: Penitent Engines are slower (Rage is inferior to Holy rage), Seraphim must make Hit and Run initiative checks now, and not only that, they have to make them a I3, and TLHF Immolators are slower now. Conversely, Dominions have gained Scout (like they should have had all along).
Shooting: Bolt pistols across the board for shooting before assaulting. New shooting acts of faith for Dominions which looks useful for melta spam, but Battle Sisters and Celestians now have weakened shooting due to a lack of Divine Guidance.
Overall, they were nerfed everywhere. Automatically Appended Next Post: NELS1031 wrote:Not to sound rude or anything, but what did you honestly expect from a White Dwarf codex?
This half-assed monstrosity is EXACTLY what I expected out of a WD codex.
Which is exactly what I said in that post. Automatically Appended Next Post: bhsman wrote:The Retributor and Dominion powers look pretty amazing, too.
Divine Guidance used to be available to EVERY squad. Why should we be "amazed" when it's now restricted only to Retributors? Rending is a slight step up from AP1 to be sure, but it's still nothing special... and it comes at the expense of the rest of the army being nerfed.
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Post by: nels1031
Melissia wrote: This half-assed monstrosity is EXACTLY what I expected out of a WD codex.
Which is exactly what I said in that post.
I got the impression from your first paragraph that you were expecting new rules, new units, new art and new minis. None of which seems to happen in a WD codex.
Like I said, everyone seems to be underwhelmed by these things.
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Post by: Melissia
I was hoping, not expecting. Melissia wrote:Overall, I was right, it does blow JUST as much as I was expecting... but I'm still sorely disappointed about that fact.
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Post by: Melissia
Kroothawk wrote:Given that there is not a single miniature release accompanying this WD Codex and not a single new unit, I believe BramGaunt that this WD Codex is only a temporary quick fix (no allies, no inquisition units) and that there will be a full Codex with a full miniature release next year. I don't think that the rumours about the new models are completely made up and that this WD Codex is meant as the answer to Sororitas fans waiting for 7 years.
I don't either.
Pity for the people who honestly thought the codex wouldn't suck.
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Post by: SabrX
So far, I've seen very little anti-psyker in the army. This is discerning. I hope whoever wrote this new codex had enough sense to implement war gear that's more effective than a psychic hood. It's hilarious that Sisters of Battle, tasked with hunting rogue psykers, have little protection compared to other factions.
Furthermore, I've yet to see any fixes to Sisters of Battle 'Achilles heel'. One of the reasons why Sisters of Battle don't score high in tournament is due to Annihilation missions from lack of better armored vehicles and lack of ranged anti-tank shooting. New Sisters of Battle vehicles have no protection against range anti-mech shooting other than a laughable 6++. There's lack of Str8 or <= AP2 shooting against FNP spam. For all their boost in TL-shooting, the new Sisters will have difficulty against Paladins and BA or DA Assault Terminators.
The Canoness can't hide among her retinue anymore. She'll probably have the option for invulnerable save wargear, but I doubt it will get any better than a 4++. This puts her at risk in assault. Once stubborn is gone, the rest of the squad crumbles like a house of cards.
If the new Sisters can't neutralize threats in shooting phase, then its curtains in the enemy's assault phase.
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Post by: AlexHolker
bhsman wrote:I got the impression from reading the Faith rules that there will be more in the second, but more generic ones/powers that every unit can use.
If these extra Faith powers existed, they would be in the part of the rules we've already seen.
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Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
I don't see the point in getting miffed over these new rules just yet. What makes or breaks armies isn't usually complicated special rules, but points costs and access to special/heavy weapons in all slots.
To the (1?) SoB player having a panic attack already - all your vehicles have a 6+ save, you can access the death cult assassin/crusader units and very good looking penitent engines as assault units, dominions have scout, I would honestly wait for points costs before declaring the sky fallen.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Yeah, they've nerfed them so will probably drop all the points values meaning all the Sisters collectors have devalued armies. Then they can all go out and buy a load more from direct order because GW don't even stock them properly any more.
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Post by: neiltj1
I am very curious in what the Simulacrum and loud hailer will do. Also like that one of the special characters gives his unit FnP and +1 attack.
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Post by: Melissia
Who's upset? I'm more saying "I was right all along, and here's why".
Laud Hailer USUALLY effects tank shock No clue what it'd do for Jacobus. The Simaculrum Imperialis effects Acts of Faith.
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Post by: efarrer
I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I don't see the point in getting miffed over these new rules just yet. What makes or breaks armies isn't usually complicated special rules, but points costs and access to special/heavy weapons in all slots.
To the (1?) SoB player having a panic attack already - all your vehicles have a 6+ save, you can access the death cult assassin/crusader units and very good looking penitent engines as assault units, dominions have scout, I would honestly wait for points costs before declaring the sky fallen.
Typically a WD codex gives clues about what's coming for the army. If this is what's coming in the real codex, then the army is going to be extremely bad.
I'm going to enjoy my final games with the witch hunters codex, and then put the army away for ten years I fear.
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Post by: Katie Drake
efarrer wrote:I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I don't see the point in getting miffed over these new rules just yet. What makes or breaks armies isn't usually complicated special rules, but points costs and access to special/heavy weapons in all slots.
To the (1?) SoB player having a panic attack already - all your vehicles have a 6+ save, you can access the death cult assassin/crusader units and very good looking penitent engines as assault units, dominions have scout, I would honestly wait for points costs before declaring the sky fallen.
Typically a WD codex gives clues about what's coming for the army. If this is what's coming in the real codex, then the army is going to be extremely bad.
I'm going to enjoy my final games with the witch hunters codex, and then put the army away for ten years I fear.
I doubt the final Codex will be as "bad" (note: I don't think that the Sisters WD Codex is bad). Just look at the Blood Angels. When their Codex came out, it drew on some of the themes from the WD/PDF Codex, but ended up far, far more interesting and powerful in the end.
Sisters might go through a rough patch for the next while, but the wait is worth it, trust me (speaking as a BA player).
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Post by: BrassScorpion
I think a lot of that buying is "flavor of the month". I'm pretty sure that the same thing happens every time a new codex is released.
Flavor of the month is always an issue, what's newest is often hottest, but not all releases are nearly as successful as some others and I'm going to agree with the people talking about Grey Knights being especially successful. Until the past couple weeks my local hobby stores could barely keep them in stock for more than a few hours, even stores just 20 minutes apart would both be sold out nearly all the time. Every time they'd get some in they'd fly off the shelves nearly immediately as recently as early July. Grey Knights seem to be a pretty big win for GW sales. Now they'll spend the rest of the year hoping to duplicate that success. Good luck with that, it's going to be tough. And it only takes one new release to tank (e.g., Beastmen) to have a massively bad month worldwide.
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Post by: ian1920
i don't feel completely nerfed, at least not yet:
outflanking dominons with (4?) twinlinked meltaguns? Yes please. even better if they bring along an immolator with twin linked multi melta
I'm thinking that IF an immolator with twin linked multi melta is reasonably priced, and IF the troops choice sisters squad minimum size will be reduced to 5 rather than 10 (so they can fit in the immolator), then that will be cool.
Yeah it's too bad about the immolator's threat range, BUT: Retributer squads with (4?) heavy flamers? doesn't that make you smile? (remember, heavy flamers aren't heavy). also, rending bolters are cute.
6+ invuln on my transports (and everything)? i'll take it.
However:
I3 for seraphim and celestians is stupid. even if they are cheaper because of it, it doesn't match the fluff. i mean, they are supposed to be the best fighters of their order. wtf for sure.
But:
we won't know for sure the extent of any nerfage until point costs and upgrades are revealed (or leaked). for all we know you can upgrade initiative with the Book of St. Initiatus. i'm looking forward to seeing what sort of "holy pistols" the seraphim superior can bring.
perhaps these girls are more than their statlines....
Final thought:
simplifying faith is a relief. i get exhausted in games trying to both remember and explain all the nuances of the different acts.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
A little editing of previous comments can do wonders:
Perhaps these girls are more than their statlines.... seraphim and celestians is stupid. Doesn't that make you smile? I get exhausted in games, feel completely nerfed, the nuances of the different acts will be cool. Sisters might go through a rough patch for a load, so will probably drop even if they are cheaper.
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Post by: Zid
Honestly, reading all the WD leaks... doesn't look THAT bad to me. I think wargear will make or break the dex; bit the cannoness giving her unit +1I and preferred enemy? That could be pretty disgusting if she can take a great assault unit! Plus it seems EVERYTHING has that 6++.... which is better than no invun!
Plus imagine a cannoness with some crusaders and death cult assassins; craploads of power weapon doom that reroll hits at a higher I? Yes please! And repentia don't seem that bad (minus all having power fists)
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Post by: frgsinwntr
this news saddens me... Only Punching Mat Wart (ward) will make me feel better
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Post by: ian1920
i bet celestians and seraphim were going to remain at i4 but then matt ward saw it and said, "no that won't work, they'll strike at the same time as space marines and a marine might get hurt. and that's not happenin, not on my watch."
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Post by: BrassScorpion
this news saddens me...
It saddens me too as much of my next couple White Dwarf magazines will be taken up by what is for me useless SoB articles.
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Post by: The Grog
I'm amazed by the fact that the new Acts are both more complicated and less useful. Explaining the 3 Acts that are used normally now is bad enough, now every single unit has it's own effect.
I can see it now. "What does the Sister's act do? Those jump packer? The command squad, wait it has 3 from characters? What was that troop choice act again?"
And I'm really going to hate rolling tons of useless 6++ saves ...
I wonder if I can just buy razorbacks and sub them for Immolators now? There's very little difference now, except the Razorbacks get better weapon choices.
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Post by: Melissia
Katie Drake wrote:(note: I don't think that the Sisters WD Codex is bad)
Then you are wrong The whole thing is one huge nerf to the army. Even if the pricing is appropriate (it won't be) it still just turns Sisters into cannon fodder instead of the elite force they're supposed to be. Automatically Appended Next Post: The Grog wrote:I wonder if I can just buy razorbacks and sub them for Immolators now? There's very little difference now, except the Razorbacks get better weapon choices.
The only difference aside from weapon choice is that razorbacks get free searchlights but Immolators don't.
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Post by: SabrX
Katie Drake wrote:
I doubt the final Codex will be as "bad" (note: I don't think that the Sisters WD Codex is bad). Just look at the Blood Angels. When their Codex came out, it drew on some of the themes from the WD/PDF Codex, but ended up far, far more interesting and powerful in the end.
Sisters might go through a rough patch for the next while, but the wait is worth it, trust me (speaking as a BA player).
If you were a Sisters of Battle player at heart, then you would know how bad the new codex really is. It's seriously bad and it doesn't help that it takes more than 2 editions for Sisters to get the proper codex they deserve.
ian1920 wrote:i don't feel completely nerfed, at least not yet:
outflanking dominons with (4?) twinlinked meltaguns? Yes please. even better if they bring along an immolator with twin linked multi melta
Just because they have Scouts doesn't mean they can out flank.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
So why the drop in Int for Celestians and Seraphim? I would really like to see the reasoning behind that and then slap them in the face. This seems like it will be a permanent change and doesn't seem likely to go back to I4 for the real codex.
Looks like my SoB will get one or two last runs and then it will be back to my IG.
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Post by: Neconilis
SabrX wrote:Just because they have Scouts doesn't mean they can out flank.
Actually I think that's exactly what that means.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
SabrX wrote:Katie Drake wrote:
Just because they have Scouts doesn't mean they can out flank.
Actually that's exactly what that means.
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Post by: Omegus
htj wrote:Phototoxin wrote:They **might** strip SoB down to 4+ and have 3+ on only the elite units..
That's just idle speculation though, right? Please tell me that's just idle speculation! I'm having palpatations here!
Power armor is 3+, they won't reduce their save.
But if the latest BoK rumors on the Sisters are accurate (and I'm almost positive they are), then it doesn't matter since they have had all their teeth pulled out anyway.
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Post by: Melissia
Think about it thsi way:
On Acts of Faith:
What did we gain?
-- A few new acts of faith for certain squads (not all gained new ones).
What did we lose?
-- The ability to use whichever Acts of Faith was most suited to the situation. All but Battle Sisters lost Light of the Emperor-- so no more automatic regrouping after falling back for them. All but Retributors lost Divine Guidance, drastically reducing the army's shooting ability. Hand of the Emperor is now gone and replaced with a similarly named but inferior version. The Passion is gone entirely. Spirit of the Martyr is replaced wih an inferior version for Repentia, noone else gets it anymore. The new system is also more complicated and less reliable than the old one, making the entire army dependent on luck even more than ever before.
Why is what we gained not as good as it seems at first glance?
-- Most of the "new" Acts of Faith are poorly designed. Repentia, for example, hit even if they die in close combat-- but then again, the problem is getting them there. Celestians gain +1s and fearless-- and yet why would you want a 5-10 model T3 / I3 unit to be fearless in close combat? It'll just get slaughtered by anything MEQ or even Eldar. Acts of Faith no longer scale with army size, so in large battles they will be able to use Acts of Faith far less effectively than in small ones, unlike C:WH.
===========================
On Leadership:
What did we gain?
-- Nothing.
What did we lose?
-- Book of St. Lucius (no armoury), Light of the Emperor.
Why is what we gained not as good as it seemed at first glance?
-- If we gained anything, I'd be able to answer this.
===========================
On Assaulting:
What did we gain?
-- Bolt Pistols to shoot before an assault, frag grenades, krak grenades, Celestians gained +1 attack.
What did we lose?
-- I4 on Celestians and Seraphim, mobility on Seraphim (Hit and Run now requires an initiative check at I3).
Why is what we gained not as good as it seemed at first glance?
-- With no infantry units that are I4 anymore, Sisters never strike before most dedicate assault units regardless of Frag Grenades.
===========================
On mobility:
What did we gain?
-- Scouts on Dominions.
What did we lose?
-- Holy Rage on Penitent Engines, Only In Death Does Duty Serve on Repentia, exemption to initiative tests on Seraphim, lost I4 on Seraphim making Initiative tests that much harder to pass, Immolators may not move 12" and fire their TLHFs.
Why is what we gained not as good as it seemed at first glance?
-- Dominions are finally useful... but so much of the rest of the army got nerfed in the process, making it a very sad gain indeed.
===========================
On shooting:
What did we gain?
-- One new Act of Faith for Dominions. Very slightly improved Divine Guidance.
What did we lose?
-- Divine Guidance for anyone but Retributors, less effective range on immolator.
Why is what we gained not as good as it seemed at first glance?
-- Once again, the boost to one unit is combined with the nerf of many others.
===========================
I'm not using this codex no matter what the points costs are. Low points aren't going to save the army-- in fact, it'd only hurt, as the army's fluff and feel are already tossed to the wayside for the sake of stupidity, why would I also want to see the Sisters turned into cannon fodder instead of the elite troops they're supposed to be?
Shining examples of all that's good about humanity my ass, if this is hinting at what's coming for the REAL codex.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
since they have had all their teeth pulled out anyway.
Interesting.
Cool new models. Oh, wait.
MOD: Please don't post GW copyright materials in DakkaDakka.
Thanks.
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Post by: Katie Drake
Yeah, I'm not a Sisters of Battle player, you're right about that. I'm pretty decent at 40K though and I don't care about supposed lost fluff or anything like that. I don't expect anyone to listen to me, but I think the gaming potential of the Battle Sisters will still be quite good unless the points costs for things are completely insane.
I do know the "pain" of getting a White Dwarf update though, as I played Blood Angels through the period where they relied entirely on White Dwarf and then a PDF. Honestly, it wasn't that bad (though I did play Daemons for about a year) and made for some exciting new opportunities on the tabletop.
Again, I know my point of view won't be a popular one, just thought I'd have my say.
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Post by: Kurgash
It's like they took the sisters of battle, slapped some Space Marine terms in there for fluff and unit names and called it a day.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Hell, even the Priests got to keep their I4...
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Post by: Melissia
Canonesses don't even get the small boon of having real retinues from the look of things. It's a command squad now, not retinue-- like the C:SM command squad, but crappier.
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Post by: SabrX
Traceoftoxin wrote:SabrX wrote:Katie Drake wrote:
Just because they have Scouts doesn't mean they can out flank.
Actually that's exactly what that means.
Err, strange quotes, but yes. Forgot about page 94.
Melissia wrote:Canonesses don't even get the small boon of having real retinues from the look of things. It's a command squad now, not retinue-- like the C:SM command squad, but crappier.
A command squad that can potentially disembark from a vehicle that moved cruising speed, have relentless, and fire a Multi-Melta. That's like a 26" vehicle kill zone at the start of movement.
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Post by: Melissia
Which still won't help her at all once push comes to being assaulted.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I'm really hoping this leads to some folks abandoning sisters in my area. Every time I had some spare cash to buy a box of sisters that was sitting in stock for months and months unwanted, it turns out somebody else bought them a day before me... that happened like 5 times...
BTW, where exactly does it say that Sisters only ever have access to one act of faith? Looking at that scan for example, the canoness rules only say 'acts of faith' and then it has the description for one act listed as 'the passion'. It doesn't say anywhere that this is the Canonesses only Act of Faith
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Post by: SabrX
chaos0xomega wrote:I'm really hoping this leads to some folks abandoning sisters in my area. Every time I had some spare cash to buy a box of sisters that was sitting in stock for months and months unwanted, it turns out somebody else bought them a day before me... that happened like 5 times...
Sisters became Direct Order a long time ago. From the looks of it, there won't be any new plastic models. It would be another kick the groin if GW doesn't release the older models in finecast resin.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I know, thats why I want to see some quitters. Get their minis for cheap.
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Post by: Melissia
SabrX wrote:It would be another kick the groin if GW doesn't release the older models in finecast resin.
They probably won't-- this was already a zero-effort affair using old models, old fluff, and old art.
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Post by: The Grog
SabrX wrote:
A command squad that can potentially disembark from a vehicle that moved cruising speed, have relentless, and fire a Multi-Melta. That's like a 26" vehicle kill zone at the start of movement.
And you have a 50/50 chance of getting the Act to go off. And you test at the start of your shooting phase, so you have to commit before you even know if you can do it. And it's going to be ONE BS4 MM shot, for what's likely to be at least 100 points, unless you think GW's going to let you have more than one heavy weapon in this unit. Remember that most command squads aren't allowed heavy weapons at all, so I suspect GW's thinking that they are extra-special allowing you to assault your 3s statline unit after rapid firing bolters. Maybe. If you make the faith check.
chaos0xomega wrote:I'm really hoping this leads to some folks abandoning sisters in my area. Every time I had some spare cash to buy a box of sisters that was sitting in stock for months and months unwanted, it turns out somebody else bought them a day before me... that happened like 5 times...
BTW, where exactly does it say that Sisters only ever have access to one act of faith? Looking at that scan for example, the canoness rules only say 'acts of faith' and then it has the description for one act listed as 'the passion'. It doesn't say anywhere that this is the Canonesses only Act of Faith
Check the Heresy Online thread, it's also in other places. Each unit gets it's own, which is why it's listed under the unit and not in an extra section. I suppose it's still possible that there are generic acts, but considering that most of the originals have versions listed for units already ...
The only benefit of this is that if you stack a Cannoness with Celestians and Jacobus and you get something that *might* be good in assault, as you can use the Act for each character attached to the unit. If you roll enough points, and they pass their tests.
God, I expect 7 point basic Sisters after this disaster. Retributions might be good, if and only if they are at the Long Fangs' level of stupid-cheap.
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Post by: SabrX
I really like the new Saint Celestine. Having her act as normal the moment she 'resurrects' with D3 wounds doesn't make her completely useless. She isn't a complete liability and there's no repercussions from her dead like the one in codex Witch Hunters. 6 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that wounds on a 4+ is decent. I find it funny she has Shield of Faith even though her armour grants 4++. Silly GW! Would be nice if it was cumulative.
I also noticed Celestine's resurrection ability is triggered when she is removed as casualty and not when she loses her last wound. If Daemons of Chaos turns her into a spawn using Boon of Mutation (in which chase she is removed as casualty), then she can resurrect again.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
SabrX wrote:So far, I've seen very little anti-psyker in the army. This is discerning. I hope whoever wrote this new codex had enough sense to implement war gear that's more effective than a psychic hood.
My Chaos Space Marines feel for you. Really.
From what's been put up...wow, did they really just split the Inquisitorial retinue's henchmen like that? Grey Knights can have this half but this half is clearly Sisters? Really? That makes the box....kind of useless really.
Well done.
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Post by: Grenat
Well. I expected something like that anyway. Disapointing, but... with all previous discussions, we were warned to bite the bullet. For what I can understand, special characters, especially Jacobus and Celestine (depending her cost, I suppose), will be overused ? About the (future) point costs, it seems we must say goodbye to our elite-like army. So the point is : the most expansive miniatures of all GW range will be for a mass army, really ? How many sisters will be necessary to play at 2000/3000 pts, do you think ? I don't like Troop Battle sisters to only have the capacity of Light of the Emperor. I mean, that's useful, but basic battle sisters are (or so it seems...) our only troop choice. It means we must overused them to get objectives... and they have lost much of their versatility. It is a little sad. About acts of faith : we will try to compensate the little nerf about most of them on units, by the fact that we will use them more apparently (1D6 acts x number of turn)... If we are lucky enough to succeed at our dice rolls ! With the 6++ save, I feel like luck will somewhat be really really decisive in sisters game, it is not really what I prefer in wargaming. Like it was said, I hope there will be some true anti-psy abilities/wargears to come.... I mostly play against MEQ with my sisters and I fear the effect of losing Divine Guidance on my units except for Retributors ! XD We will see how these sisters (I can't call them new, because there is strictly nothing new ) will do on the battlefield, in september.
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Post by: SagesStone
SabrX wrote:I really like the new Saint Celestine. Having her act as normal the moment she 'resurrects' with D3 wounds doesn't make her completely useless. She isn't a complete liability and there's no repercussions from her dead like the one in codex Witch Hunters. 6 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that wounds on a 4+ is decent. I find it funny she has Shield of Faith even though her armour grants 4++. Silly GW! Would be nice if it was cumulative.
I also noticed Celestine's resurrection ability is triggered when she is removed as casualty and not when she loses her last wound. If Daemons of Chaos turns her into a spawn using Boon of Mutation (in which chase she is removed as casualty), then she can resurrect again.
I might actually start using it then.
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Is the same true if she is turned into a Squig by old zogworts?
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Post by: TBD
BrassScorpion wrote:this news saddens me...
It saddens me too as much of my next couple White Dwarf magazines will be taken up by what is for me useless SoB articles.
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Post by: Kroothawk
SabrX wrote:It would be another kick the groin if GW doesn't release the older models in finecast resin.
"Yo dawg. You didn't start a Sororitas army because metal standard troops are so expensive. So we changed the material, added 25% miscasts and rereleased them even more expensive. Guess everyone will start now!"
Sororitas are abreviated SOB for a reason
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Post by: Ixquic
Like Melissia I predicted this would be terrible after seeing the "awesome buffs" the rumor guy was talking about being either nerfs or units being exactly the same however even I didn't see them being so stupid as to give Celestians an extra attack, a close combat specific faith power and then lower their initiative to 3. That and leaving Repentia and Penitent Engines with no way to get into combat show a fundamental lack of understanding how the game is even played. The excuse before was that the book was rushed and couldn't be properly tested but they've had a decade of people bitching about those units and still don't understand. The only consolation is that everything will be cheap points wise but when a full squad is like $60-70 and plastic models are hinted as being in the pipeline no one is going to go out and add to a terribly designed army.
The only thing that gives me hope for the actual codex (whenever the hell that comes out) is that the White Dwarf hold over was apparently written by Robin Cruddace (who sucks and explains why this is so bad) while the real author is busy.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Just want to repeat this rumour posted by Captain Ventris over at Warseer 27th June (on page 3 of this thread):
Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
Guess it makes sense.
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Post by: efarrer
Ixquic wrote:Like Melissia I predicted this would be terrible after seeing the "awesome buffs" the rumor guy was talking about being either nerfs or units being exactly the same however even I didn't see them being so stupid as to give Celestians an extra attack, a close combat specific faith power and then lower their initiative to 3. That and leaving Repentia and Penitent Engines with no way to get into combat show a fundamental lack of understanding how the game is even played. The excuse before was that the book was rushed and couldn't be properly tested but they've had a decade of people bitching about those units and still don't understand. The only consolation is that everything will be cheap points wise but when a full squad is like $60-70 and plastic models are hinted as being in the pipeline no one is going to go out and add to a terribly designed army.
The only thing that gives me hope for the actual codex (whenever the hell that comes out) is that the White Dwarf hold over was apparently written by Robin Cruddace (who sucks and explains why this is so bad) while the real author is busy.
I don't think it's possible to cheapen the models points wise enough to make the nerfs they've imposed playable (a fact that is compounded by the loss of allied units). The more I review leaked information the less happy I am. Given that this will supersede the published codex just adds to my frustration.
It weakens them in close combat (which I didn't even realize was possible.)
It has reduced their options (Assassins appear to be gone, as are inquisitors, ignoring the guard units that could once be taken)
Holy Rage being replaced by the incredibly bad rage rule on units that can't go in transports.
Weakened and harder to use faith rules.
I have not yet seen a single thing in that improved at all. Lowering point costs will just compound the problems of this minidex as in order to reach a playable size even more very expensive ($) troops will be required.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote:Just want to repeat this rumour posted by Captain Ventris over at Warseer 27th June (on page 3 of this thread):
Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
Guess it makes sense.
It's not difficult to see. I'd rather had nothing at this time than this wretched abortion.
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Post by: TBD
I don't understand why they didn't get rid of this army altogether. Either that or keep them within a larger Inquisition codex. There isn't much left for them now.
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Post by: Ixquic
Yeah I agree but it's the only thing I think can make that horrendous list playable. The close combat aspect of the army is totally gone (not that there was much before). I just don't get how they look at a unit with S3, T3, I3 and no power weapons and think that A2 and MAYBE +1 strength is going to make it more than a bloodstain after tangling with anything tougher than a Guard squad. Likewise as you said they made Penitent Engines worse by using the rage rule without fleet since apparently they were just too good and flying off the shelves before. In order to actual use the Faith system even somewhat reliably Jacobus is an auto include which just seems like bad design, but that's not surprising here.
I don't get the mindset with this list. People are under the assumption that new plastics are coming out in the future. So why release a minidex that will require people to buy more ultra expensive metal models to get up to a reasonable points level? No one is going to run out to waste cash like that so why not just take their 3rd edition Pdf scan they already have, nix all the Inquisitor stuff, adjust points a little and fix the out of date stuff like 1 FP rhinos? It would have been less work and would have been a better list.
efarrer wrote:
It's not difficult to see. I'd rather had nothing at this time than this wretched abortion.
Yep. This is what I was saying back when the BoK rumors started so I've already come to terms with my disappointment. I feel bad for people that were glad to "finally get some love!" and didn't realize that no update is better than a bad one.
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Post by: Grenat
In order to actual use the Faith system even somewhat reliably Jacobus is an auto include which just seems like bad design, but that's not surprising here.
Ya... I hate that.
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Post by: Brother SRM
TBD wrote:I don't understand why they didn't get rid of this army altogether. Either that or keep them within a larger Inquisition codex. There isn't much left for them now.
Squatting armies pisses players off, and GW seems to have learned their lesson on that. The potential for a new Sisters army with new units and new models is pretty astounding, and they can take them in almost any direction they want. This codex is just so they can say they've updated every army before 6th ed.
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Post by: Ixquic
The most fun I'm going to get out of this update is hearing the GW employees try to figure out a way to convince me it's not terrible.
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Post by: Melissia
Kroothawk wrote:The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
If by "wasn't thoroughly playtested" they mean "was playtested even less than Melissia's 5th Edition C: AS fandex and of markedly lower balance and substance in EVERY regard", yes, that's certainly true. Ixquic wrote:The most fun I'm going to get out of this update is hearing the GW employees try to figure out a way to convince me it's not terrible.
Mine haven't bothered. They know better.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
The most fun I'm going to get out of this update is hearing the GW employees try to figure out a way to convince me it's not terrible.
Actually the whining and moaning in this thread provides near endless entertainment and at the added bonus of not having to use transportation. The "it's all about me and what they are doing to me" type comments are especially priceless. And of course, no one can wait till they've seen the whole thing before jumping to conclusions. So long and thanks for all the fish(y) comments.
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Post by: Melissia
I don't really see "whining and moaning" so much as I see people saying "I told you so" and nobody actually being surprised.
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Post by: Ixquic
BrassScorpion wrote:The most fun I'm going to get out of this update is hearing the GW employees try to figure out a way to convince me it's not terrible.
Actually the whining and moaning in this thread provides near endless entertainment and at the added bonus of not having to use transportation. The "it's all about me and what they are doing to me" type comments are especially priceless. And of course, no one can wait till they've seen the whole thing before jumping to conclusions. So long and thanks for all the fish(y) comments.
Yeah I wouldn't want to go to the crappy new Maryland bunker either.
Can't wait for the army list points to counter terrible new rules and bad design (by making more model purchases required) but whatever you're not reading this now right?
Melissia wrote:I don't really see "whining and moaning" so much as I see people saying "I told you so" and nobody actually being surprised.
I admit I was surprised that instead of just not fixing certain things that everyone complained about before they actively made them worse. I guess that's how GW keeps people like me that bitch about their game on our toes.
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Post by: efarrer
Ixquic wrote:The most fun I'm going to get out of this update is hearing the GW employees try to figure out a way to convince me it's not terrible.
The happiest feeling I had as a red shirt after being told our store was redundant was knowing I didn't have to try and put a positive spin on the upcoming Chaos codex .
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Post by: Kirasu
I dont really understand the purpose of releasing this update without plastic models.. I like the book for the sole reason that it fits in with my already super large "imperial force" as I can just add elements of the church to the inquisition
However, Im never going to invest in an all metal army so GW is losing a lot of potential sales
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Post by: Melissia
As if the Chaos Whinyboy Marines codex could ever be compared to this one. It's leagues above it in quality in every way
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Post by: Melissia
Kirasu wrote:However, Im never going to invest in an all metal army so GW is losing a lot of potential sales
Even if it's finecast it'll be the same old models, except more expensive and more flaws, and the rules will be worse.
Essentially this update is like someone asking for food in a soup kitchen and then you took a dump in their bowl and offered it to them.
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Post by: Kirasu
Indeed I am also not interested at all in a finecast army. I want some models that are actually updated. Personally I have a ton of priests, deathcults and crusaders ready but without actual model support this whole release is a bust
I'll probably allow the old sisters book to be continued to be used at tournaments for our non-existent sisters players (If somehow someone brings them)
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Kirasu wrote:Indeed I am also not interested at all in a finecast army. I want some models that are actually updated. Personally I have a ton of priests, deathcults and crusaders ready but without actual model support this whole release is a bust
I'll probably allow the old sisters book to be continued to be used at tournaments for our non-existent sisters players (If somehow someone brings them)
I'm going to really suggest this to the TO at my FLGS too. After showing him this abomination when it comes out and what the current dex is, I am hopeful that he will still allow even just the non-Inquisition units from C: WH. If not, then as I said before, it will be time to go back to my IG.
So did Cruddance write this from the opinion that after all, SoB really are IG in power armor? As was said before, I didn't think it was possible to make SoB worse in CC, but I guess I have a hat to go eat right now.
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Post by: streamdragon
I like that they STILL didn't bother to check their captions. That Retributor is most definitely NOT armed with a heavy bolter...
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Post by: Melissia
Hahahah! I can't believe I didn't notice that!
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Post by: augustus5
Melissia wrote:I don't really see "whining and moaning" so much as I see people saying "I told you so" and nobody actually being surprised.
I actually see a lot of people running around saying, "The sky is falling!" "The sky is falling!"
Just take a moment to breathe and try to remember the BA WD codex. It seemed rushed and not all that good either. No new models were released, and the BA didn't have many of the cool bells and whistles that they now have with their proper codex.
I imagine this will be the case with SOB. When they get their proper codex, it will contain a lot of cool stuff, and will be released alongside new plastic and, finecost kits.
So instead of making dire predictions of having to shelf your army for ten years and crying nerf until the cows come home, just remember that when you do get your proper codex, it will probably be pretty sweet.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
augustus5 wrote:Melissia wrote:I don't really see "whining and moaning" so much as I see people saying "I told you so" and nobody actually being surprised.
I actually see a lot of people running around saying, "The sky is falling!" "The sky is falling!"
Just take a moment to breathe and try to remember the BA WD codex. It seemed rushed and not all that good either. No new models were released, and the BA didn't have many of the cool bells and whistles that they now have with their proper codex.
I imagine this will be the case with SOB. When they get their proper codex, it will contain a lot of cool stuff, and will be released alongside new plastic and, finecost kits.
So instead of making dire predictions of having to shelf your army for ten years and crying nerf until the cows come home, just remember that when you do get your proper codex, it will probably be pretty sweet.
That's all well and good, but will Celestians and Seraphim stay I3 in the "proper" codex is at least one of my bigger concerns right now.
So yes, I am running around and saying, "The sky is falling!"
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Post by: wuestenfux
Kroothawk wrote:Just want to repeat this rumour posted by Captain Ventris over at Warseer 27th June (on page 3 of this thread):
Sisters will be getting a standard book, but it will certainly be coming well after the Necron book. Talked to my source this last weekend. The WD codex for sisters is simply a holdover till 6th ed. for now. Also its apparently a "filler" codex because the necron book and models were delayed in Production and wouldn't get released till november (this was apparently decided 6 months ago). The WD sisters codex was rushed btw and wasn't thoroughly playtested.
Guess it makes sense.
Thanks for clarification. Now I understand why GW released a 'new' SOB codex in a hurry.
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Post by: Omegus
BrassScorpion wrote: Actually the whining and moaning in this thread provides near endless entertainment and at the added bonus of not having to use transportation. The "it's all about me and what they are doing to me" type comments are especially priceless. And of course, no one can wait till they've seen the whole thing before jumping to conclusions. So long and thanks for all the fish(y) comments.
Disingenuous argument is disingenuous.
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Post by: Melissia
augustus5 wrote:I actually see a lot of people running around saying, "The sky is falling!" "The sky is falling!"
Certainly that's not coming from MY posts The only thing that really pisses me off is the nerf to the initiative of Seraphim and Celestians. Wonder if that was Cruddace's fault, or if some mouth-breathing simpleton pushed that decision on him?
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Post by: neiltj1
efarrer wrote:Holy Rage being replaced by the incredibly bad rage rule on units that can't go in transports.
.
I am looking at the repentia entry in the scan. What prevents them from entering a transport? I dont see anything, so I think putting them in transports might be nice.
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Post by: Melissia
Nothing for now. if they can get in transports, that might make up for the loss of OIDDDE.
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Post by: Ixquic
neiltj1 wrote:efarrer wrote:Holy Rage being replaced by the incredibly bad rage rule on units that can't go in transports.
.
I am looking at the repentia entry in the scan. What prevents them from entering a transport? I dont see anything, so I think putting them in transports might be nice.
Pertinent Engines lost their holy rage so they are actually slower now.
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Post by: Avariel
I will wait for the points costs but the nerfs to the act of faith system really has me upset. I liked the old system of faith much better.
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Post by: SabrX
We don't really know who the actual author is for codex Sisters of Battle. If it's Cruddace, I'd expect some horde feature. Make Sisters super cheap, forcing players to spend loads of cash on an army that's packaged as blisters with no box sets. Making everything resincast would only increase GW's profits seeing they always mark up the price compared to the old metal blisters.
Whoever the author is, if they want praise for writing this codex, they'll receive little.
Avariel wrote:I will wait for the points costs but the nerfs to the act of faith system really has me upset. I liked the old system of faith much better.
The old system was actually easier to remember and gave Sisters a lot of versatility. The new system is more confusing with their modifiers and different faith abilities per each unit.
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Post by: Melissia
Right... the old one at least you'd say "I choose to activate this act of faith" instead of "wait, which act of faith does his unit have access to again?"
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Post by: Shotgun
It is exactly what I expected. It improved nothing, will sell nothing, and will keep existing sisters players from playing.
Pretty much just like the BA list.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
Shotgun wrote:It is exactly what I expected. It improved nothing, will sell nothing, and will keep existing sisters players from playing.
Pretty much just like the BA list.
Yes, but did the BA White Dwarf list make Assault Marines I3? I don't think so.
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Post by: frgsinwntr
in one more month we'll see if the list is worth playing.
Until that time i want to punch Cruddace AND ward.
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Post by: SabrX
I'd actually be thankful if Ward wrote the new codex. If he did, Sisters of Battle would be OP.
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Post by: Chaos_Duality
Sisters would be OP?
If Ward wrote the SOB 'dex, they'd all be dead before you could field them!
I'm not overly impressed by this WD 'dex but...then I'm not surprised either.
*holds out hope for the real thing*
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Post by: Kirasu
As a super long term player of blood angels (I do have a few models for them).. The WD BA codex was NOT weak. I got 2 'ard boyz 2500 pt armies cause of that book
Preferred enemy Dante + corbulo wrecked peoples faces :p Boring? yes.. Weak.. no
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Rules Lawyering Time!
Act of Faith system: "The unit immediately gains a bonus and/or special rules until the end of the phase."
Sororitas Command Squad: "This Act of Faith is used in the MOVEMENT phase. If successful the unit gains the Relentless and MTC USR until the end of the turn."
I'm sure an donkey-cave would claim that since the rules for acts of faith state they only last 1 phase that this AoF would only last the movement phase
Force Org question.
Gw usually has their force org organized like this: HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Special Characters
So does this mean :
HQ
Canoness
Sororitas Command Squads
Ecclesiarchy
Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves
Elite
Sisters Repentia
Penitent Engine
Troops
Battle Sisters
Celestian Squads
Fast Attack
Dominion Squads
Seraphim Squads
Heavy Support
Retributor Squads
Exorcists
I know I've read from one of the rumours leakers that there would only be 2 units per force org slot.
Any thoughts?
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Post by: SabrX
Regardless of comparisons to other factions given the same treatment, from what I've read so far the new Sisters of Battle won't perform well in current tournament scene unless they can be fielded in large quantities or have upgrades/wargear that fixes their short comings in moral and assault.
This can be done by...
- Making everyone super cheap. Especially Penitent Engines, Seraphims, and Repentias.
- Give Repentias ability to embark in vehicles.
- Give Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves access to Land Raider or Chimera
- Give each Superior access to Book of St. Lucius, which makes the entire squad stubborn.
- Give the Canoness wargear options for 4++ (though I'd prefer 3++, or even better, 2++), 2+ armor save, and Power Weapons that allows her to strike at initiative with boost strength (just like the old Blessed Weapon except one handed).
- Give some expensive 0 - 1 wargear that boost everyone's Shield of Faith within 12".
- Give Celestians, Canoness, and Seraphims access to Eviscerators with a justifiable points cost.
- Allow Immolators to shoot having moving cruising speed.
- Implement better defense against psychic powers (psychic hood with unlimited range?).
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Post by: Revarien
If battle sisters are 8-9pts each... I will be fielding 120 troop models (if allowed 20 per choice)... hands down. That is a LOT of 3+ and I already field 70 or so with the current dex (though the WH dex has much more survivability with the 3++ faith act)...
Also, I don't get why folks are displeased with the repentia... depending on points, they'll be brutal, especially with 6+/FNP.
I do have to admit, if the SoB got their 3+/6++ (as in a 6++ as a 'ward save', like in fantasy) every turn, then I'd be inclined to love this WD dex... I'm just not impressed without seeing point costs though.
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Post by: Melissia
Oh, and if you have a large Sisters army, you'll be using the exact same number of faith points as you would if you had a small Sisters army.
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Post by: The Grog
Revarien wrote:If battle sisters are 8-9pts each... I will be fielding 120 troop models (if allowed 20 per choice)... hands down. That is a LOT of 3+ and I already field 70 or so with the current dex (though the WH dex has much more survivability with the 3++ faith act)...
Also, I don't get why folks are displeased with the repentia... depending on points, they'll be brutal, especially with 6+/FNP.
I do have to admit, if the SoB got their 3+/6++ (as in a 6++ as a 'ward save', like in fantasy) every turn, then I'd be inclined to love this WD dex... I'm just not impressed without seeing point costs though.
If they can't use transports they are still T3 models with no armor. Ask DE players how much tougher Witches are vs. shooting once they have FNP.
They can be kited and redirected due to rage.
They need to be transported, which means they need a Land Raider or to sit in a Rhino for a round not moving. This makes said kiting/redirecting much easier.
If they get to melee with some models left, THEN they'll be be brutal if they get to swing. If they get wiped out and you have to depend on the Act, nobody is going to be impressed by a handful of WS3 attacks despite the chainfist doing the swinging.
They've been improved, like the other total garbage units (Engines, Retributors). Only the points costs can tell us if they are still mostly garbage. They still need points reductions from the old costs.
As for the rest of the army, I suspect we'll need to outnumber a basic SM mech army by 1.5 or 2 to 1 to win. Stuff like SW or BA or GK could easily clear the field of 80+ Sisters models in melee with proper charge control, and we don't have a choice about allowing that because we can't hurt them at ranges over 12"
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Post by: scuddman
This white dwarf codex is awful. The only viable build coming out of this is mech spam. They're gonna cost in the middle of the road inbetween space marines and IG, but the army has neither the hth nor shooting capabilities of either army. To compete, you'll take min squads and max on immolators, because right now that's the only thing that's any good you can take in abundance.
Absolute garbage. To make it worse, I know this white dwarf codex is a delaying tactic, so that means the odds of us seeing a real release is a ways away.
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Post by: Melissia
Actually Penitent Engines have not been improved, they're nerfed. They might hit harder, but they're slower now.
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Post by: SabrX
Melissia wrote:Actually Penitent Engines have not been improved, they're nerfed. They might hit harder, but they're slower now.
And they have Rage, which makes them still uncontrollable. Opponent can manipulate them with tarpits or units that would utterly decimate Penitent Engines in assault.
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Post by: scuddman
I can't possibly see how large sister squads would work. Unlike space marines or IG blolb squads, they can be sweeping advanced. It's the necron problem all over again except they're toughness 3 instead of 4.
For rhino builds, you'll drive up, disembark, shoot once, then die horribly. None of their units can hold up in hth to anything anymore. At least in the Whunter's codex it took a while to die. Now...you'll lose combat by a bunch, fail your leadership, then get sweeping advanced. On top, the army is short ranged, so you have no choice but to get close...but unlike guard they don't put out enough firepower.
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Post by: IdentifyZero
So, I've got about 400 Sororitas who were waiting for this update eagerly.
Now, they may be put out to work the streets.
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Post by: N'Ferno
Faith points are D6 per turn now, no indication whatsoever that it is per unit.
The 6++ save is on most units by default, does not require an act of faith (and thank the Emperor for that, it would make things even worse hah).
Has the Armory gone completely? Or is it simply part of the 2nd part of the dex?
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Post by: SabrX
I'm not surprised the "Sisters of Battle - WD Photos." thread got locked down. Hence why on page 6, I didn't straight up post the link, but left a keyword everyone could search for on search engines.
N'Ferno wrote:Faith points are D6 per turn now, no indication whatsoever that it is per unit.
The 6++ save is on most units by default, does not require an act of faith (and thank the Emperor for that, it would make things even worse hah).
Has the Armory gone completely? Or is it simply part of the 2nd part of the dex?
Armory will probably be reorganized in the 2nd White Dwarf codex release into Wargear with individual sections detailing Weapons, Vehicle Equipment, Armour, and Equipment.
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Post by: The Grog
Melissia wrote:Actually Penitent Engines have not been improved, they're nerfed. They might hit harder, but they're slower now.
Oops, I thought they were 10/10/10 before. Shows how much I field them.
I think it's an improvement even still. They gained an attack, a second heavy flamer, and the chaining attacks rule. So now they deal 3.1 wounds on the charge each instead of 1.8, plus an extra HF shot.
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Post by: Melissia
Except they are slower and thus they take longer to get into assault / heavy flamer range. Automatically Appended Next Post: N'Ferno wrote:Faith points are D6 per turn now, no indication whatsoever that it is per unit.
There is NO indication that it is per uni.
You generate D6 Faith Points per turn. No more, no less.
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Post by: Ixquic
Yeah it's weird. Obviously the new name of the game is "spam cheap crap units" but then they make it so there's a good chance you will have 3 or less faith points on that turn you really need them so a large army where you have more units that need to be buffed is bad for that. I still don't know what a unit of Sisters rapid firing is supposed to do; pseudo rending bolters gave them some kick and they could be great tarpits with 3++ and unmodified leadership but now they will kill 2 marines then be crushed in the inevitable CC phase. I just don't get what the logic here is at all.
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Post by: Melissia
Meh, 7 bolters, combiflamer, flamer, heavy flamer can do a bit of damage by itself, but it's still nothing that can really save the squad from any dedicated assault unit.
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Post by: streamdragon
Faith has become a completely unreliable mechanic; which is extremely bad considering it's really our only mechanic. Might as well play Guard, at least they get Orders every turn.
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Post by: SabrX
I don't see anything stopping a unit from using the same Act of Faith more than once. +6 strength Celestians anyone?
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Post by: Ixquic
Melissia wrote:Meh, 7 bolters, combiflamer, flamer, heavy flamer can do a bit of damage by itself, but it's still nothing that can really save the squad from any dedicated assault unit.
That's true but rerolling 1s on the hit isn't great when the squad is loaded up with flamers. It would have been nice to see 1s to wound rerolled instead.
Also just noticed the battle report next will be Sisters vs Tyranids. Which Cruddace army is worse? FIND OUT NEXT MONTH!
SabrX wrote:I don't see anything stopping a unit from using the same Act of Faith more than once. +6 strength Celestians anyone?
That's actually kind of cool but the crappy way you generate faith makes that not as feasible.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Wow, having seen the stuff from the other thread, Sisters got nerfed pretty hard.
Points costs could of course make it up, but yeah, that's pretty rough.
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Post by: SabrX
Ixquic wrote:
SabrX wrote:I don't see anything stopping a unit from using the same Act of Faith more than once. +6 strength Celestians anyone?
That's actually kind of cool but the crappy way you generate faith makes that not as feasible.
Which makes it almost necessary to field Uriah Jacobus for that reroll.
Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm also a purist Sisters of Battle player at heart, but times are changing. Whoever wrote this codex is mashing Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas together like they are one single entity (which they aren't).
In any case. Attempting the same Act of Faith more than once makes it slightly more reliable.
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Post by: Ixquic
To be fair the old BA WD codex really required two special characters to be good so requiring them here isn't too outrageous.
I'm holding out hope that there are cheap one use free faith power or bonus faith point wargear but honestly the absolute lack of understanding shown here so far doesn't fill me with confidence.
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Post by: SonicPara
I still think that Serphim getting to fire two pistols and having their act of faith rerolling wounds is a big deal. The damage output of that unit with dual hand flamers is insane but, as any other points brought up, it all depends on their cost. The potential is there though, just depends on how expensive they make them.
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Post by: N'Ferno
Attempting the same act of faith multiple times per unit in the same phase..hmm...I sense alot of drama coming :p
I'll wait for the point values/armory to pass judgement on the new Sisters, but it's clear it didn't go the way most people wanted the new dex to go.
edit : lol @ the SoB vs 'Nids Cruddace armies comment.
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Post by: SabrX
SonicPara wrote:I still think that Serphim getting to fire two pistols and having their act of faith rerolling wounds is a big deal. The damage output of that unit with dual hand flamers is insane but, as any other points brought up, it all depends on their cost. The potential is there though, just depends on how expensive they make them.
If they have the option to take 4 special weapons being Meltaguns, Inferno Pistol, Flamer, or Hand Flamers all at low points cost, then yes, they would worth taking.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
SabrX wrote:SonicPara wrote:I still think that Serphim getting to fire two pistols and having their act of faith rerolling wounds is a big deal. The damage output of that unit with dual hand flamers is insane but, as any other points brought up, it all depends on their cost. The potential is there though, just depends on how expensive they make them.
If they have the option to take 4 special weapons being Meltaguns, Inferno Pistol, Flamer, or Hand Flamers all at low points cost, then yes, they would worth taking.
Also assuming that they are not 22 points per model, and get an even further cost reduction for not being I4 anymore...
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Post by: SabrX
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:SabrX wrote:SonicPara wrote:I still think that Serphim getting to fire two pistols and having their act of faith rerolling wounds is a big deal. The damage output of that unit with dual hand flamers is insane but, as any other points brought up, it all depends on their cost. The potential is there though, just depends on how expensive they make them.
If they have the option to take 4 special weapons being Meltaguns, Inferno Pistol, Flamer, or Hand Flamers all at low points cost, then yes, they would worth taking.
Also assuming that they are not 22 points per model, and get an even further cost reduction for not being I4 anymore...
BoK rumored a Seraphim will cost less than a Space Marine.
Canoness could potentially have a Jump Pack and beef up the Seraphims to I4 if she uses the Passion. But if that happened, the Seraphims won't be able to hit and run.
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Post by: Evil Lamp 6
SabrX wrote:BoK rumored a Seraphim will cost less than a Space Marine.
Canoness could potentially have a Jump Pack and beef up the Seraphims to I4 if she uses the Passion. But if that happened, the Seraphims won't be able to hit and run.
I think one of the few hopes I have remaining is that they are indeed quite cheap, and that there is going to be some piece of wargear that is able to be taken by Celestians & Seraphim that boosts them back to I4.
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Post by: frgsinwntr
something i noticed.... i didn't see a restriction for how many times per turn you can use an AoF....
and the AoF wording says all modifiers are cumulative....
could it be that a unit will get stacking AoF???
Celestians with 2 attacks each per turn with stacking strength up to 9?
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Post by: SabrX
frgsinwntr wrote:something i noticed.... i didn't see a restriction for how many times per turn you can use an AoF....
and the AoF wording says all modifiers are cumulative....
could it be that a unit will get stacking AoF???
Celestians with 2 attacks each per turn with stacking strength up to 9?
Already mentioned above.
Yeah, it's going to be sweet if Celestians can reach as high as Str8 and instant kill Nobz and Marine characters.
I thought the old Hand of the Emperor was silly having human girls stronger than normal marines, but this take cake! Normal human girls stronger than a monstrous creature!
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Post by: Kurgash
SabrX wrote:
I thought the old Hand of the Emperor was silly having human girls stronger than normal marines, but this take cake! Normal human girls stronger than a monstrous creature!
They can do that already, it just has a month long cool down.
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Post by: carmachu
SabrX wrote:
BoK rumored a Seraphim will cost less than a Space Marine.
Canoness could potentially have a Jump Pack and beef up the Seraphims to I4 if she uses the Passion. But if that happened, the Seraphims won't be able to hit and run.
Seraphim can now only hit and run half the time, given the I3 thing. At less then 15pts of a space marine, 2 pistol shots, reroll wounds and I3 they are overpriced. 22pts and the old rules were much better.
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Post by: Gonzo_Neo
Then with the new Pistols rule of Seraphin, one with 2 flame pistol attack count like 2 flamers template attack ( or 2 inferno pistol shot 2 times , 2 bolt pistol shoot 2 times, etc... ) ?
Well if this is true the seraphs CC are worst but in shoot phase this could be good.
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Post by: Redbeard
Don't get your power-armoured panties in a bunch. Until there are points associated with any of this, it's not a nerf or a buff, it's just descriptions.
8 point power-armour sisters are a buff, even without stubborn and divine guidance. At 8 point each, you can easily field 60 sisters on foot and still have room for all the other toys too.
11 point sisters are a nerf without acts and BoSL.
80 point penitent engines, as described here, would be a nerf. But if they're costed more like killa kans, even without the extra move, that's a buff.
Without a point cost, you're crying that the sky is falling. It's still too early to tell. Personally, I'm hoping for a lower point cost and a viable power-armour horde approach. I'm sick of 5th ed mech. 4 units of 20 sisters, with some penitents, and a few retributors and seraphim backing them up sounds great to me.
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Post by: SabrX
Redbeard wrote: I'm sick of 5th ed mech. 4 units of 20 sisters, with some penitents, and a few retributors and seraphim backing them up sounds great to me.
In a setting with no vehicles and limited Monstrous Creatures, it would be great, as long as Sisters gets stubborn leadership upgrade in the 2nd half.
If GW did lower the points cost of Penitent Engines, made them plastic and packaged like the kans, and made them elite, I would definitely consider fielding them.
26
Post by: carmachu
Gonzo_Neo wrote:Then with the new Pistols rule of Seraphin, one with 2 flame pistol attack count like 2 flamers template attack ( or 2 inferno pistol shot 2 times , 2 bolt pistol shoot 2 times, etc... ) ?
Well if this is true the seraphs CC are worst but in shoot phase this could be good.
Twin linked bolt pistols, 2 flamer templates and divine guidance was better, considering you then slammed into combat at I4, and either wiped them out, or held them up with other acts and then hit away in your turn leaving them open to shooting again.
No it wont. Automatically Appended Next Post: Redbeard wrote:Don't get your power-armoured panties in a bunch. Until there are points associated with any of this, it's not a nerf or a buff, it's just descriptions.
8 point power-armour sisters are a buff, even without stubborn and divine guidance. At 8 point each, you can easily field 60 sisters on foot and still have room for all the other toys too.
11 point sisters are a nerf without acts and BoSL.
80 point penitent engines, as described here, would be a nerf. But if they're costed more like killa kans, even without the extra move, that's a buff.
Without a point cost, you're crying that the sky is falling. It's still too early to tell. Personally, I'm hoping for a lower point cost and a viable power-armour horde approach. I'm sick of 5th ed mech. 4 units of 20 sisters, with some penitents, and a few retributors and seraphim backing them up sounds great to me.
Really? Because I'd LOVE to see you crack the IG mech spam, Marine spam, or DE vehcial spam with 60 sisters.
In the current meta, sisters could be 5 points and its not going to matter.
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Post by: Happygrunt
Kurgash wrote:SabrX wrote:
I thought the old Hand of the Emperor was silly having human girls stronger than normal marines, but this take cake! Normal human girls stronger than a monstrous creature!
They can do that already, it just has a month long cool down.
BA-DUM-TISH!
Maybe the actual SoB codex will be better. No one has actually played with this stop gap codex yet either.
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Post by: SabrX
carmachu wrote:Gonzo_Neo wrote:Then with the new Pistols rule of Seraphin, one with 2 flame pistol attack count like 2 flamers template attack ( or 2 inferno pistol shot 2 times , 2 bolt pistol shoot 2 times, etc... ) ?
Well if this is true the seraphs CC are worst but in shoot phase this could be good.
Twin linked bolt pistols, 2 flamer templates and divine guidance was better, considering you then slammed into combat at I4, and either wiped them out, or held them up with other acts and then hit away in your turn leaving them open to shooting again.
No it wont.
Plus they were the only unit that came with frag grenades and hit and run didn't require an Initiative test.
Codex Witch Hunters Seraphims IMO were one of the best infantry units in 40k thanks for stubborn, roll 3 dice for acts of faith, 3++, and an Eviscerator.
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Post by: Happygrunt
Oh, and a local sisters player took on mech guard and won with only infantry. So meta be damned, sisters work.
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Post by: carmachu
Happygrunt wrote:Oh, and a local sisters player took on mech guard and won with only infantry. So meta be damned, sisters work.
And I've killed terminators with lasguns. So what.
Thats with the current list, and current dex. I expect that,. I doubt it will be duplicated in the new list.
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Post by: SabrX
Happygrunt wrote:Oh, and a local sisters player took on mech guard and won with only infantry. So meta be damned, sisters work.
If you take two equally skilled players, both with competitive lists, then IG has the edge.
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Post by: Omegus
The problem with spamming the Sisters IG-style (other than fluff rape and sheer cost) is that you always just get d6 faith points. If that's what they wanted, they should have just done away with faith entirely and just made them 7 points a pop.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
I assume no militia?
OH GW WHY DID YOU SQUAT US?!
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