Omegus wrote:The problem with spamming the Sisters IG-style (other than fluff rape and sheer cost) is that you always just get d6 faith points. If that's what they wanted, they should have just done away with faith entirely and just made them 7 points a pop.

It's possible there will be wargear to increase the amount of faith points generated per turn. D6 might be the minimum baseline and for some price you get a +1 per wargear bought or something.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I assume no militia?



OH GW WHY DID YOU SQUAT US?!

Sorry.

Militia, xeno-hunting, and rogue psyker hunting has been out-sourced to codex Grey Knights (Coteaz).

SabrX wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I assume no militia?



OH GW WHY DID YOU SQUAT US?!

Sorry.

Militia, xeno-hunting, and rogue psyker hunting has been out-sourced to codex Grey Knights (Coteaz).

Who don't get militia either!

They were never a great unit but who doesn't love a huge rabble of screaming fanatics?

They might show up in the full version. I have heard rumors that even if the inquisitors are gone, Henchmen squads may come back.

Ah, the old White Dwarf #292 (US)/ White Dwarf 304 (UK) Witch Hunter Zealots by Graham McNeill.

They are still legit as long as you have the original copy.

Redbeard wrote:
8 point power-armour sisters are a buff, even without stubborn and divine guidance. At 8 point each, you can easily field 60 sisters on foot and still have room for all the other toys too.

The problem is what, exactly, are those 60 Sisters on foot going to accomplish? Orks manage it because they are very dangerous to assault. Same with IG powerblobs. A 20 woman Sister troop just screams 'assault me' and can't hurt anything more than 24" away, and barely at 13-24" if you give up all mobility.

carmachu wrote:
Really? Because I'd LOVE to see you crack the IG mech spam, Marine spam, or DE vehcial spam with 60 sisters.
In the current meta, sisters could be 5 points and its not going to matter.

I lean towards this. I think foot Sisters don't have the tools to accomplish anything.

And considering the expected point costs to make these rules work, how in the hell are Sisters EVER going to win a KP mission?

The only thing Sisters have the tools to really accomplish is melta spam. Other armies can do it better.

Ixquic wrote:That's true but rerolling 1s on the hit isn't great when the squad is loaded up with flamers. It would have been nice to see 1s to wound rerolled instead.

It used to be that on a to-wound roll of 1 flamers became AP1. We lost that.

SonicPara wrote:I still think that Serphim getting to fire two pistols and having their act of faith rerolling wounds is a big deal. The damage output of that unit with dual hand flamers is insane but, as any other points brought up, it all depends on their cost. The potential is there though, just depends on how expensive they make them.

And yet, the cost for this is a HUGE nerf to their mobility and assault capability. I don't think you'll very much find the exchange worth it-- Seraphim go from a highly mobile, hit and run harassing unit to a unit that prays it does enough damage in shooting so it might be able to survive the assault.

Pistols are too short ranged not to assault after shooting them after all.

SabrX wrote:Canoness could potentially have a Jump Pack and beef up the Seraphims to I4 if she uses the Passion. But if that happened, the Seraphims won't be able to hit and run.

They aren't exactly very capable of hi and run anyway with their I3 stat and no longer being exempt from the initiative test.

Redbeard wrote:8 point power-armour sisters are a buff, even without stubborn and divine guidance. At 8 point each, you can easily field 60 sisters on foot and still have room for all the other toys too.

So? The Acts of Faith don't scale with army size so you're still fethed.

That's not a buff, that's just a stupid design choice.

Im not sure if anybody mentioned this but, did you guys notice the sky? Its falling! Oh and Celestians and Seraphim are I3.

Anybody ever hear the phrase "Be careful of what you wish for"? Well.....

The way Im seeing this is we the community have a couple of options.

1) Make what were getting work, and be happy
2) Sell your army, and go buy something else new and shiny IG,BA,SW,DE or soon Necrons and feed your inner need for cheese.
3) Put your beloved Sisters on a shelf and wait for the real codex to arrive. Then take your new codex full of awesome and a smattering of cheese and hunt down those heretic's and beat them down just like the BA players did when they got theirs.
4) I guess you could also keep crying. Eventually tho your sobbing will fall on def ears and nobody will care.

Personally Im going to make the best of what I am getting, and quietly wait till the real codex comes out.

orunlu wrote:Anybody ever hear the phrase "Be careful of what you wish for"? Well.....

I wished for a codex that didn't suck. I never expected it.

And I'll take a fifth option: Ignore the WD codex and play C:WH instead.

It always amazes me when people laugh at those disappointed in a new codex. ESPECIALLY when they use phrases like "feed your inner need for cheese." It's as though they honestly believe people complain about their new army books ONLY when they don't become the most BORKEN THING EVAR!!! Some people just want their army to become/stay viable, not be overpowered. Not eveyone has the same desire for their game that you do. And NO ONE likes it when their favorite army gets nerfed. It is better to try to offer counter points to their issues, rather than "Wah wah wah, you aren't Bloodwolvesguard!"

Right. I still play C:WH, probably the second weakest army in 40k right now (3rd, depending on where you place Tau). I can handle a weak codex, and win with i. But this isn't weak, this is just pathetic. NECRONS have better rules than this.

Well I just saw the white dwarf codex part 1 and all I can say is "Yeeouch!" It's like they didn't put any thought into it at all.

Maybe in a year or two, when the real codex comes out it will be all awesomesauce like the Blood Angel codex compared to the BA white dwarf list. Or something.

Oh, and not only do you only get D6 faith points per turn, there is a pretty good chance they won't work at all.

Tau isn't so bad if you think out of the box.

There's mentioning of Battle Sisters being transported in Immolators, which probably means they can be fielded with minimum squad size 5. I'd imagine points reduction for both Immolator and Battle Sisters would make the Immolator Spam devastating.

SabrX wrote:Tau isn't so bad if you think out of the box.

There's mentioning of Battle Sisters being transported in Immolators, which probably means they can be fielded with minimum squad size 5. I'd imagine points reduction for both Immolator and Battle Sisters would make the Immolator Spam devastating.

Except that the immolator was nerfed.

Melissia wrote:It used to be that on a to-wound roll of 1 flamers became AP1. We lost that.

Pssst, its on a roll of '6' flamer wounds became AP1, not on a roll of '1'

Right, typo.

orunlu wrote:

BTW Im a sisters player who was happy with the old dex, and will find a way to make the new one work. I have friends that where BA players before and now after their WD dex and I will weather the storm as they did and still compete in tournaments with my crappy WD dex, just like they did.

Id be interested in reading your comforting counter points to all the complaints you've been reading, or are you only good at jumping down my throat?

Feel free to let us know when you actually offer something of worth or use. Instead of insulting folks that are venting.

...

Orunlu, you're violating Rule #1 in this thread. You can express yourself without being condescending, and you can disagree politely.

If you continue posting in this fashion, disciplinary action will be taken.

Thank you.

orunlu wrote:Vent all you want. Just dont expect everyone to offer a happy solution, like my original post.

Besides you complain at me enough I might change my POV where as you keep crying about our new WD dex and GW still wont change anything till they are good and ready or see big $$ to be made by offering up something better.

Here's a hint for you: GW doesnt care. Never has, never will. Given their treatment of their customers on better armies, or more money, whether we vent or not will not matter. The fact your deluded enough to think that if we act really super nice and ready to pay big $$$ will make a difference is hysterical.

At this point, when I see the second half, I'd consider playing them as female marines, if I want to continue using the models and dont like what I see.

Now onto some items of complaints: I have to quote steleck here, because he nails it on faith points: They dont scale, its an incredibly bad design thus far that we have seen:

Let’s start with the Faith Point rule.

This is a great example of poor game design.

Why?

Every turn, at the start of your movement phase, you roll D6 and that’s how many Faith Points you get for the entire turn. If you bring a horribly overpriced piece of gak special character, you can address this by getting to re-roll this dice. In short, you can’t address it (especially for all you suckers stuck in the land that time forgot, and who cannot use special characters anyway).

So, let’s see why this mechanic is typical GW unable-to-design-a-game-if-my-life-depended-on-it stupidity.

I have a 1500 point ‘army’, with 5 Faithful units. I get D6 faith.

I have a 2000 point army, with 8 Faithful units. I get D6 Faith.

I have a 2500 point army, with 12 Faithful units. I get D6 Faith.

Hey amazing, the army special rule doesn’t scale. So as you go up in points, Faith becomes an even rarer commodity.

Meh, it's not worth counting on anyway. You'll probably roll a '1' on the turn you really need faith anyway. Or you'll roll a '1' after stacking every character/upgrade on a unit to only require a 2+, just when you need that faith power. Or you'll succeed in getting the faith power off, only to be reminded that it sucks and doesn't really do anything significant.

Here is a question. If faith scaled with the army, would it be better? Say, one faith die for every 500 points, would the sisters codex be better?

Omegus wrote:Meh, it's not worth counting on anyway. You'll probably roll a '1' on the turn you really need faith anyway. Or you'll roll a '1' after stacking every character/upgrade on a unit to only require a 2+, just when you need that faith power. Or you'll succeed in getting the faith power off, only to be reminded that it sucks and doesn't really do anything significant.

It was never something you could count on solely, however you could stack the odds in your favor in the old faith points. You could still fail there too. But the old way, it scaled as you added faithful units(and they died)


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Happygrunt wrote:Here is a question. If faith scaled with the army, would it be better? Say, D6 faith die for every 500 points, would the sisters codex be better?

Define better. Many of the acts now are still a nerf. But at a higher point game you would have more faith to work with. Kind of a mixed bag, ATM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me add further: You can tell GW doesnt give a crap just looking at some of the items. Go look at priests;

special rules: acts of faith, independent character, sheild of faith

Wargear: Flak armor, chainsword, frag gernades, las pistol, krak gernades, rosarius

So they have a 6+ Invulnerable, AND a 4+ invulnerable.

Really GW? Couldnt you pretend you playtested?

Maybe laud hailers add 1 to your faith pool? Perhaps imagifiers (if they are still in there) accomplish this instead? Theres got to be some way to add faith points that we haven't seen.

chaos0xomega wrote:Maybe laud hailers add 1 to your faith pool? Perhaps imagifiers (if they are still in there) accomplish this instead? Theres got to be some way to add faith points that we haven't seen.

Yeah I'm thinking this might be the case. Not having a scaling system for the points is glaringly bad design.

Having the army list and the rules in two mags just seems like a bad idea to me since it builds bad blood when people have to guess as to how things are going to work with half the information. It should have been story and model showcase in this issue then the rules and list in next month if they are g oing to split it.

chaos0xomega wrote:Maybe laud hailers add 1 to your faith pool? Perhaps imagifiers (if they are still in there) accomplish this instead? Theres got to be some way to add faith points that we haven't seen.

yes I think that this probably what the simulacrum will do. You can operate your army bare bones with a minimum of faith or pay for some upgrades that let have more.(granted I hope that is how it will be, but I wont KNOW until next month)

I am just glad that the book of st cheese is likely dead. Having the command squad get stubborn is a good trade in my view.

All in all its what i expected, emphasis on more cheaper units, and streamlined faith.

So you're GLAD the army now blows more than a fan designed to test supersonic aircraft and that Sisters veterans are now easier to route than Imperial Guard Infantry?

Are you trolling, GBL?

No. Hell no. Having ONE squad stubborn and the rest of them with NO leadership buffs AT ALL essentialy makes Sisters the least motivated army in the game, completely contradictory to the fluff, indeed, pretty much the exact opposite of the fluff.

The Book of St. Lucius, even such as it was, was overpriced.

Melissia wrote:So you're GLAD the army now blows more than a fan designed to test supersonic aircraft and that Sisters veterans are now easier to route than Imperial Guard Infantry?

Are you trolling, GBL?

No. Hell no. Having ONE squad stubborn and the rest of them with NO leadership buffs AT ALL essentialy makes Sisters the least motivated army in the game, completely contradictory to the fluff, indeed, pretty much the exact opposite of the fluff.

The Book of St. Lucius, even such as it was, was overpriced.

In your opinion.

In mine the last sisters dex had several glaring faults, the least of which was that they basically ignored morale based on a badly worded piece of wargear, and this one fixes those issues in their entirety.

GBL wrote:In your opinion.

No really, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me that my stated opinions are my stated opinions. This part of your post was so not pointless.

GBL wrote:In mine the last sisters dex had several glaring faults, the least of which was that they basically ignored morale based on a badly worded piece of wargear, and this one fixes those issues in their entirety.

So only Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and etc are allowed to ignore morale?

Because The BoSL wasn't poorly worded, it was EXCELLENTLY worded, because it actually made Sisters as motivated in game as they are in the lore.

GBL wrote:

Melissia wrote:So you're GLAD the army now blows more than a fan designed to test supersonic aircraft and that Sisters veterans are now easier to route than Imperial Guard Infantry?

Are you trolling, GBL?

No. Hell no. Having ONE squad stubborn and the rest of them with NO leadership buffs AT ALL essentialy makes Sisters the least motivated army in the game, completely contradictory to the fluff, indeed, pretty much the exact opposite of the fluff.

The Book of St. Lucius, even such as it was, was overpriced.

In your opinion.

In mine the last sisters dex had several glaring faults, the least of which was that they basically ignored morale based on a badly worded piece of wargear, and this one fixes those issues in their entirety.

And nonindependent commissars in IG squads are okay, but the book isn't? Basically keeping a short ranged army with super bad leadership problems = Necron codex problems.
But that's not the only issue. The main thing is that the army has no teeth in hth or at ranged. Besides heavy support, there is no long range in the army at all. That means the way you win will be to drive up close...It's pretty much a suicide melta/flamer army, which IG does better already. You'll drive up..and do what exactly? Pop a transport? Then the contents inside assault you and it's game over, because you can't do anything to stop it. Basically, all the points you spend on their gear is worthless because they'll get sweeping advanced..and rather reliably too.

So try blob sisters. Well, unlike blob guard, they're weak to sweeping advance. A unit of assault marines wins by a few and the entire squad is gone from sweeping advance. It's bad to have big sister units when they lack firepower, hth ability, or range. 20 sisters of battle will accomplish what exactly? They can't even hold an objective properly.

Melissia wrote:

GBL wrote:In mine the last sisters dex had several glaring faults, the least of which was that they basically ignored morale based on a badly worded piece of wargear, and this one fixes those issues in their entirety.

So only Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and etc are allowed to ignore morale?

Each of these have exceptions to morale, but after a certain point still flee. Orks lose numbers, Guard and Nids lose HQ units. These are fluffy exceptions. Sisters threw a book (of all things) at their units and gained stubborn.

Melissia wrote:
Because The BoSL wasn't poorly worded, it was EXCELLENTLY worded, because it actually made Sisters as motivated in game as they are in the lore.

It was terribly worded, and causes arguments everytime i see it played.

But the keyword is was. Even if GW cant string decent pricing together they do seem to be on top of their games.

GBL wrote:Each of these have exceptions to morale, but after a certain point still flee. Orks lose numbers, Guard and Nids lose HQ units. These are fluffy exceptions. Sisters threw a book (of all things) at their units and gained stubborn.

So? Sisters have nothing now. So I suggest you play a game where Marines don't have ATSKNF and Combat Tactics. Go play a game where Orks don't have Mob Rule or Bosspoles. Go play a game where Tyranids don't have Synapse.

Go on, do it. Oh wait you're not going to because the armies would suck more than a black hole.

GBL wrote:It was terribly worded

No. It's EXTREMELY clear. One of the least confusing rules ever-- ATSKNF is less clear, Synapse is less clear, for feth's sake, even Mob Rule is less clear than the BoSL.

You have to have an remarkably poor grasp of the English language to not understand the BoSL's rules. It's extremely straight-forward. "Any friendly unit with a model within 6" may use the bearer's unmodified leadership value for any morale checks or pinning tests it is required to take." It doesn't get any clearer than this. What the hell kind of people are you playing with?

GBL wrote:
Sisters threw a book (of all things) at their units and gained stubborn.

You do know how books are used, right? You are supposed to read it, not throw it at people.

The BoSL was the single best equipment in the Sisters of Battle armoury. It provided a 6" unmodified leadership bubble. The wording was clear as day. The bearer orates a few verses or inspiring quote, uplifting the moral of fellow Sisters. It befitting for warriors who fight for the Ecclesiarch.

If all the people going crazy just simply love going crazy, keep knocking yourselves out. For anyone else, I just think people need to calm down a little bit and pick up some perspective. This isn't the fully picture yet.

For all we know, Exorcists can come in squadrons of 10 and only cost 50 points a piece.

Yes I3 is disappointing.. but when were you assaulting with your sisters anyway? Yea maybe you kill a marine or two when you get charged but that's not going to win you a game. I'll gladly trade down to I3 to gain a 6++ and a sharply reduced points cost. Not to mention if Battle Sisters can in fact go into squads of 5 and take Immo's as DT's.

Yes we have one of the two puzzle pieces, but we can't quite make out the picture it is going to combine into yet. So until then, just relax.

morgendonner wrote:Yes I3 is disappointing.. but when were you assaulting with your sisters anyway?

Dunno, how about Tactical MArines who are holding points? Celestians can easily win combats against them after the double flamer.

morgendonner wrote:Yes we have one of the two puzzle pieces, but we can't quite make out the picture it is going to combine into yet. So until then, just relax.

One doesn't have to see the entire turd to know it's a turd. If someone takes a dump in front of you, do you pick the turd up and look at it on all sides and then declare to the world "yes, I've examined the whole thing and can now safely say this is, in fact, a turd."?

We'll have to use our sisters differently, that's for sure. I'm gonna role up my sleeves and give it a shot


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and no, me rolling up my sleeves has nothing to do with the turd comments.

Melissia wrote:Dunno, how about Tactical MArines who are holding points? Celestians can easily win combats against them after the double flamer.

And Celestians can still easily be I4 assuming they're with a cannoness.. not to mention it looks like they are probably picking up FNP by having a Hospitaler.

Melissia wrote:One doesn't have to see the entire turd to know it's a turd. If someone takes a dump in front of you, do you pick the turd up and look at it on all sides and then declare to the world "yes, I've examined the whole thing and can now safely say this is, in fact, a turd."?

I'm not looking to get into a personal debacle but considering how negative you always are about sisters, why do you even play them if they cause you such grief? Just be optimistic or at least be a bit more patient and just wait and see what happens. This surely isn't making them any worse than they were.

Melissia wrote:

GBL wrote:Each of these have exceptions to morale, but after a certain point still flee. Orks lose numbers, Guard and Nids lose HQ units. These are fluffy exceptions. Sisters threw a book (of all things) at their units and gained stubborn.

So? Sisters have nothing now.

The sky isnt falling. That WD dex looks very promising.

Melissia wrote:

So I suggest you play a game where Marines don't have ATSKNF and Combat Tactics. Go play a game where Orks don't have Mob Rule or Bosspoles. Go play a game where Tyranids don't have Synapse.

Go on, do it. Oh wait you're not going to because the armies would suck more than a black hole.

Why dont you try the WD codex when the points costs and wargear are released? You might just be pleasantly surprised.

Funny how you pick Orks and Nids as examples. Both good armies with real tactics that had fans screeching like this when they were released.



I was one of the people who had their entire army completely destroyed by the move from 4th to 5th Guard Codexes. With droptroops removed they told me if i wanted to replicate that feat i had to purchase Valkyries for my 120 Guardsmen. On top of that, whilst i acknowledge that the new codex is powerful its not as fun. But what did i do when that happened?

Well i didnt pick a fight with a stranger on the internet because they shared a differing viewpoint.

Melissia wrote:

SabrX wrote:Tau isn't so bad if you think out of the box.

There's mentioning of Battle Sisters being transported in Immolators, which probably means they can be fielded with minimum squad size 5. I'd imagine points reduction for both Immolator and Battle Sisters would make the Immolator Spam devastating.

Except that the immolator was nerfed.

IT's a slim hope but this could still be fixed by making them fast and thus still able to move 12 and fire the flamer. Too much to hope for you say? you're undoubtedly right, oh well.

is it possible that this leak is just a rough draft? or a fake?

GBL wrote:The sky isnt falling. That WD dex looks very promising.

So far, the WD dex does not look very promising for reasons outlined already.

Sisters of Battle are meant to be a close range shooting army. They do the most damage using flamers and meltaguns. At close range, assault becomes inevitable. Only a few units in the codex have either fear or stubborn. Fear is a double edge blade and doesn't bode well for T3 armies. Even with 3+ save, Sisters will be forced to make a lot of "no retreat" saves having lost too many in assault. 2nd stubborn is only limited to two IC. Once the IC dies, the entire house crumbles.

Foot sloggers doesn't make any tactical sense. It's a poor overall strategy. Sisters only have medium ranged anti-infantry shooting and close range anti-tank shooting. There isn't a whole lot of range anti-tank other than Exorcist and possibly Multi-Melta Immolators (which was an expensive upgrade in the last codex). Furthermore, foot sisters will get out maneuvered and are still vulnerable to assault. Without stubborn leadership, they are doomed to get wiped out in sweeping advance.

ian1920 wrote:is it possible that this leak is just a rough draft? or a fake?

They are scans from what i am told are reliable sources who get the White Dwarfs early.

Saying that with their new focus on security i wasnt expecting to hear from them.

Well made if they are fakes.

This thread makes me sad, I thought plastics would come out along with a decent codex. This was gonna be my first real army since I never did anything with my 500 pts of space wolves. I was gonna do a Quebec colour scheme and everything and go all out. Now I'm just sad. :(

I guess I'll go play GK or something... Honestly, they were my second choice so it's not terrible. But I really wanted to do that paint scheme! Maybe I'll get one box or something and do just those for now.

Just because someone's saying the codex blows more than a top-tier tornado doesn't mean that they're saying the sky is falling. The accusations that people who dislike the changes are screaming about the end of the world are frankly just worthless trolling and they should be ashamed of themselves.


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morgendonner wrote:And Celestians can still easily be I4 assuming they're with a cannoness

So in order to get back to where they SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALL ALONG, they have to have a special character AND spend at least one faith point every turn they're in assault?

And you think this is a good thing?

To those who say we don't have the full picture, we kinda do. It's essentially the witchhunter's codex version of sisters of battle with all their teeth pulled out.

Everything is normalized and standardized...that it doesn't work is obvious...it hasn't been tested or worked with at all. It's just basic units broken down into their basic components. People hoping for exorcists in vehicle squadrons or extreme point differences are gong to be disappointed. Ditto for the wargear section. If you're expecting unusual or test type gear, well...it's not happening.

Basically if you want to do mech melta, pick up the grey knights codex and make a henchman army.

Saying that it blows is one thing, but implying that the codex has nothing at all (and like the blood angels WD codex it will have one good build) is akin to doomsaying. But getting upset at people for pointing that out is...

Melissia wrote: frankly just worthless trolling and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Couldnt have said it better myself

I don't know...I play my crappy armies because I like crap...hence my nickname.

But I can't see how this codex can work at all. Even in the best case scenario where there's a big points reduction, the basic sister isn't competitive at all.
If there's a viable build, it'll inevitably involve maxing a nonbasic sister unit...and frankly speaking, that's just bad design.

GBL wrote:

ian1920 wrote:is it possible that this leak is just a rough draft? or a fake?

They are scans from what i am told are reliable sources who get the White Dwarfs early.

Saying that with their new focus on security i wasnt expecting to hear from them.

Well made if they are fakes.

Hey,

The scans match up with the copy of WD I have.

Regards


** Also noting, most stores and independent retailers have been able to get their WDs all week. Not sure if this will change next month, but they have to get them early to sell them on time. **

Goatboy posted up a nice little blurb on the sisters part 1. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/07/goatboy-revenge-of-sistahs.html I think he makes some good points that really make a case for the argument that it's too soon to make judgements.

My only real complaint is, especially with the expected point nerfs, it's going to be a real pain to put this army together. I already have a mini army of sisters but it's going to be a big pain to fill out those squads, even if finecast boxes come out.


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IdentifyZero wrote:** Also noting, most stores and independent retailers have been able to get their WDs all week. Not sure if this will change next month, but they have to get them early to sell them on time. **

I think that really depends on where you are located and what store it is. My FLGS told me they get WD on a very shotty schedule that sometimes varies quite a bit from month to month.

morgendonner wrote:Goatboy posted up a nice little blurb on the sisters part 1. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/07/goatboy-revenge-of-sistahs.html I think he makes some good points that really make a case for the argument that it's too soon to make judgements.

Frankly, you'll find a lot more insight in the new codex if you read the last few pages of this thread. Goatboy is sugar coating Shield of Faith when he mentioned, "FU Long Fang Missile Spam." 15 Missiles at 6 different targets, 10 will hit, 1/6 will glance while 2/3 will penetrate, and 5/6 will stick their tongue out at Shield of Fiath.

Fortunately, Sisters can still use Imperial Armour Vol.2 vehicles where there is an Immolator able to move cruising speed and still fire its TL-Heavy Flamers. Too bad niether that nor the new Immolator have any fire points.

Melissia wrote:The Book of St. Lucius, even such as it was, was overpriced.

40 Points for a Palatine with a 12" bubble (6" radius) of unstoppable Ld9 is overpriced?

I still don't see a legitimate reason for all of the doom and gloom people are piling on. Their statline dropped but they still are BS4 so maybe their points and weapon options will reveal them as an inexpensive and therefore powerful shooting army a la Imperial Guard. If the Exorcist's weapon is unchanged then it is still one of the best Heavy Support tanks in the game and if basic sisters are cheap and given generous access to flamer/melta (as they should being sisters and all) then you could end up with an army that is essentially IG Veterans in power armour; how is that bad? I'm sure you will have some reason why the notion would be terrible and I'm sure part of it will be in all-caps just in case we would have missed it but seriously, hold your hate until you see the truly important details.

Adapt and adjust.

All the new codices that came have been vastly different than previous generations in terms of play-style. All of them have also been much more flexible than before.

I, for one, like the trend of the newer codices. All have been an improvement from previous iterations. Some can even be said to be a little too good (here's looking at you, space wolves and grey knights).

At first glance, it seems as if the sisters have lost some of their strengths. Well so did Dark Eldar with their lance-spam. Gone are the massed, cheapo 10pt lances. However, instead, it was just replaced by other goodies - massed poisoned shooting, beastpacks, massed blasters, flickerfield saves, etc. Tyranids lost nidzilla and without end gaunts. Instead, they've got one of the best transport-poppers as well as the mobility that was previously lacking. And the Grey Knights...well, we all know about them.

While losing the under-costed BoSL might seem like the end of the world, it really isn't because now, the sisters can regroup regardless of conditions with a successful act of faith.

But if it follows the trend of other new codices, you'll going to see a reduction in price of a lot of the other units. That can only be good.

Anyways, I'm going to reserve judgement on the new codex until I see it in its entirety.

jy2 wrote:the sisters can regroup regardless of conditions with a successful act of faith.

Celestians and Battle Sisters yes. Everyone else, no unless they get close to Arch-Confessor Kyrinov.

Of all the units, Seraphims needed the regroup option and stubborn leadership the most. It seems their role has switched from versatility to just straight up shooting. It's too risky to have Seraphims assault. Sweeping advance will kill them.

On the plus side, I really like the new Retributors potentially taking 4 Heavy Flamers with rending and new Saint Celestine.

SonicPara wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Book of St. Lucius, even such as it was, was overpriced.

40 Points for a Palatine with a 12" bubble (6" radius) of unstoppable Ld9 is overpriced?

I still don't see a legitimate reason for all of the doom and gloom people are piling on. Their statline dropped but they still are BS4 so maybe their points and weapon options will reveal them as an inexpensive and therefore powerful shooting army a la Imperial Guard. If the Exorcist's weapon is unchanged then it is still one of the best Heavy Support tanks in the game and if basic sisters are cheap and given generous access to flamer/melta (as they should being sisters and all) then you could end up with an army that is essentially IG Veterans in power armour; how is that bad? I'm sure you will have some reason why the notion would be terrible and I'm sure part of it will be in all-caps just in case we would have missed it but seriously, hold your hate until you see the truly important details.

There are several things you are missing.

1. Mech Vets are 3 special weapons for very few points. But notably, they can take 3 specials, a heavy, and fire them all out of a chimera. Consider that carapace vets are 10 points (hence why few competitive armies have them). Now take the rhino. It has two hatch points...and sisters of battle can at best only take 2 special weapons. They can't take a heavy weapon. They can't take plasma. It's flamer,melta, bolter only. So they have all the disadvantages of vets, a lot less of the advantages, and are exceptionally unlikely to be cheaper because of faith (reworked or not) and 3+ save. The 3+ save is good, but a chimera in the back can just move backward and shoot. A rhino squad has to get within 12" to pop a chimera. Add to the fact that the chimera vets are cheaper and it's a losing proposition.
Mech vets do NOT need to be within 12" to be effective

2. Exorcists are good, but they are not vendetta good. Don't get me wrong, strength 8 ap 1 is phenomenol, especially when you have 3. It's just that IG can have 3 manticores shooting d3 strength 10 ordnance pie plate for one slot


Basically, mech vs. mech...you're at a huge disadvantage playing rhino rush without long ranged support. At least space wolves do it differently because once the squad disembarks, they are still pretty mean in hth. Essentially SoB rush is just like marine rush except with toughness 3, less long range support, and no ATSKNF. You basically must commit if you want to shoot any of your short ranged meltas...and once the squad commits they just can't do enough. The vets even have more throughput because they have 3 meltas instead of 2 and cost less.

Assuming points cost from current C:WH (excepting Rhino/Immolator) here's what I think a competitive list will look like.

45 HQ: Canoness 45
100 HQ: Jacobus 100 (? speculating based on abilities/statline, compared to SM SCs and Inquisitor SCs from C:GK)
140 E: Celestianx5 65, Meltagun 10, MM 15, Immolator 50
140 E: Celestianx5 65, Meltagun 10, MM 15, Immolator 50
279 T: 20x SoB 220 Veteran 14 Meltax2 20 Eviscerator 25
268 T: 19x SoB 209 Veteran 14 Meltax2 20 Eviscerator 25
205 FA: Dominion x10 110 4x Melta 60 Rhino 35
205 FA: Dominion x10 110 4x Melta 60 Rhino 35
205 FA: Dominion x10 110 4x Melta 60 Rhino 35
135 H: Exorcist 135
135 H: Exorcist 135
135 H: Exorcist 135 h405 fa615 E280 t547 Hq 145
1992 points
----------------
Scouting forward with the Dominions allows you to project 12x (potentially) twinlinked meltaguns along w/ 30 3+ bodies well past midfield first turn.

The large sister blobs are Stubborn when joined by the Canoness/Jacobus. They don't project much AT force, but are passable in HtH (against dedicated HtH units, you'll need to soften with your Melta spam from Dominions or torrent them down w/ your bolters).

Exorcists are Exorcists- shoot with them at what needs to be shot at (Paladins, Nob Bikers, etc... make great targets for these, and help to mitigate some issues you have with dedicated HtH units)

In a situation where you're taking second turn, you can use the scouting Dominions to pop smoke and conga line for your Exorcists, granting a 4+/3+ save. Obviously, going first would be preferable, but, meh.
-----------

Keep in mind, all these are based on the previous points values-- I imagine we'll see a break in points for most of these units. Picking up some SoB in Rhinos to make for mobile scorers would be nice, but, even without, there a lot of 3+ bodies to deal with on the table, and the Dominions are an immediate speedbump that have to be dealt with before they can take a crack at your large troops blobs.


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TL;DR: there's at least one playable list to be made. It's a stop-gap codex, calm down, QQ less.

MSU/Pure mech version of above.

Palantine
10 x Sisters 2 x Melta, Rhino
10 x Sisters 2 x Melta, Rhino
10 x Sisters 2 x Melta, Rhino
10 x Sisters 2 x Melta, Rhino
5 x Dominion 3 x Flamer 1 x Meltagun, MM Immolator
5 x Dominion 3 x Flamer 1 x Meltagun, MM Immolator
5 x Dominion 3 x Flamer 1 x Meltagun, MM Immolator
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
5 x Celestine MM, Melta, TLHF Immo
5 x Celestine MM, Melta, TLHF Immo

1965

Accounted for 35 pt rhinos but no other point drops. Probably looks very familiar to MSU/Mech Sisters players but now features six scouting melta threats / roadblocks.

A 2 pt reduction in sister cost across the board would allow for a third Celestine squad at 2k. 12 (13) vehicles and 65 (70) 3+ bodies. 36 (37) % of those bodies are special / heavy weapons. 40 scoring models. No, this won't put them on the top of the pile, but, yes, they should be able to function.

I think ,Sororitas players should write this WD Codex off as a lazy "find 10 major flaws" exercise (I call it "Finecast riddles" ) and wait for the real deal in maybe a year ... with new ecclesiarchical units, strong rules, full background and of course a big load of new plastic minis.

I like that list. Looks mean. Although I think Dominion squads should be in immolators, but that is just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And congratulations to Kroothawk for slipping in a finecast bash. That takes skill.

Happygrunt wrote:I like that list. Looks mean. Although I think Dominion squads should be in immolators, but that is just me.

I actually like Neph's approach better in that regard, as the MM Immolators + Melta gun in the squad lets you fire Melta at 6 different units turn 1, or MM a transport and then flame the gak out of whatever was on board.

Hey. I'm just wondering, Has this months WD been released or are we still going on the rumours that these are actual scans (as real as they look...)?

Just curious...

And for that matter, when do WD's usually get released?

Kroothawk wrote:I think ,Sororitas players should write this WD Codex off as a lazy "find 10 major flaws" exercise (I call it "Finecast riddles" ) and wait for the real deal in maybe a year ... with new ecclesiarchical units, strong rules, full background and of course a big load of new plastic minis.

I think I can find much twice as much.

1. Immolator can't shoot after moving over 6" combat speed.
2. No anti-psyker rules.
3. Lack of Stubborn Leadership
4. Seraphims, a unit traditionally performs well in assault, no longer performs well in assault.
5. Typo on page 100 mislabeled image of a Retributor carrying a Multi-Melta with the caption "Retributor with Heavy Bolter".
6. Shield of Faith is 6++
7. Spirit of the Martyr nerf
8. Lack of better armored transport vehicles.
9. Canoness doesn't have a retinue anymore and is easy to instant kill.
10. Arco-flagellant Str4 instead of Str5 like their GK counterparts.
11. Seraphims and Celestians are now I3.
12. Hit and run only works half the time.
13. No new models
14. No new units
15. Penitent Engine is slow.
16 Battle Conclave is terrible.
17. Repentias are still terrible.
18. Acts of Faith don't scale up to larger points games.
19. Other than Exorcist, lack of range anti-tank shooting.
20. New codex still sucks against anti-mech gunlines, Annihilation missions, and now assault.

What is amazing to me, is that after 13 pages of crying, "NERF! RAGE!" We have yet to see the second half of the codex. Until we see that, there is no way to tell whether certain things got better or worse. All we know at this point is that many things have changed.

I can understand why people, especially the die hard Sister players, really don't like what they are seeing - but it was to be expected surely? I have a few Sisters so I'll be giving the new rules a try - I never did like the old Faith system much, in the way they were executed anyway, so a simplified version is, for me, a good thing - to go along with my simple brain

After the GK codex it seems Acts of Faith would be streamlined in a similar fashion as the GK psychic powers - pretty much how I expected them to be. Lack of versatility is brutal after so many years but I like the sound of Rending Heavy Flamers (hopefully).

The D6 generation of Acts of Faith is both good/bad - it's good in that you can get potentially more Acts of Faith off in a game, it's bad (possibly stupid) in that for larger games there will be a clear problem with it and that Uriah Jacobus seems like a certainty in most, if not all, armies - I'm glad I kept that mini now . To me they see to have some close combat (with Seraphim being a close support unit) - the Arco's and Death Cult Assassins could make for some good assault units (if you can get them there) and The Command Squad is not strictly a bad thing - Celestians with Feel no Pain and the bonuses of the Canoness seem ok to me. Unoriginal? Yes, but expected. I'm not so bothered about a lack of new units as they'll be in the new codex - but it would have been nice. It seems this is purely the stop gap until the new Codex/Edition comes out. People can always use the current Codex until the new one comes out if they are really unhappy with the WD one, I certainly wouldn't mind.

After the army list comes out we'll all be in a better position to see how Sisters play - it was always going to be different/simplified and they were never going to get half the White Dwarf to do a proper job on them, it seems we won't be getting new releases for quite a while and I can understand why, the only questions are - why bother waiting soooo long to do this, and why insist in putting it in WD, rather than just up on the website? I just hope the army list contains a decent enough armoury and that the points are reasonable - I'm sure it will be leaked again in a month's time. So much for GW's policy of uber-secret stuff

Point cost could help. 7-8 points per basic Sister perhaps. Engines priced like Kans. 30 point Cannonesses.

But this will fix only part of the problem. Sisters MUST go mech. They have no choice. They have to close with the enemy and do so in such a way that they get a round of rapid fire & templates before they get assaulted, and that requires transports.

But given low points, they are going to get destroyed on KP missions. For these units to work I think we're looking at ~150 points for 10 Sisters in a Rhino with full kit. A Sisters army at 1850 right now is often ~16-18 KP. At the needed new costs they'll be in the low to mid 20s.

And the lack of Faith scaling is godawful stupid. It's like some moron read the Gk codex and got enamored of all the psi powers and decided that is how Faith should work. Except they screwed up every part of it.

I think I can find much twice as much.

1. Immolator can't shoot after moving over 6" combat speed. -- Adjusted points may not be a problem.
2. No anti-psyker rules. -- Wait and see wargear.
3. Lack of Stubborn Leadership -- Wait and see wargear. Plus there is a character that grants ld 10 stubborn.
4. Seraphims, a unit traditionally performs well in assault, no longer performs well in assault. -- Seraphim have never been able to deal with dedicated hth units.
5. Typo on page 100 mislabeled image of a Retributor carrying a Multi-Melta with the caption "Retributor with Heavy Bolter". -- Yeah, that's kinda dumb.
6. Shield of Faith is 6++ -- GW is moving toward a 5+ standard. Wait and see if wargear corrects, or, barring that, blow smoke and use LOS blocking like everyone else has to.
7. Spirit of the Martyr nerf -- Does suck. This might be related to a points decrease issue.
8. Lack of better armored transport vehicles. -- Does suck. Wait for the real 'dex and I'm sure you'll see a new vehicle or two.
9. Canoness doesn't have a retinue anymore and is easy to instant kill. -- Canoness + Retinue has never been able to handle a dedicated hth unit.
10. Arco-flagellant Str4 instead of Str5 like their GK counterparts. -- We should wait and see the whole unit arrangement before passing judgment.
11. Seraphims and Celestians are now I3. -- Does suck, but this army wins in the shooting phase.
12. Hit and run only works half the time. -- Sucks? Maybe? I've never been impressed with Seraphim anyway.
13. No new models-- I think that's part of the point- the model range isn't ready for a big release.
14. No new units-- See above
15. Penitent Engine is slow.-- Does suck. May be a point issue as well. If they've dropped to Kan points, then w/e.
16 Battle Conclave is terrible. -- Should wait and see end unit arrangement / points before passing judgment.
17. Repentias are still terrible. -- Cover from another foot slogger unit gives them 4+ cover and FNP. Doesn't address the underlying problem with footsloggers though.
18. Acts of Faith don't scale up to larger points games. -- D6 is your baseline. AoF may scale with modifiers purchased by points rather than more rolls. You might be right, but, end arrangement will determine scaling.
19. Other than Exorcist, lack of range anti-tank shooting. -- Other than the Exorcist, which, with a pts decrease would be an amazing unit. Also, you have access to scouting multimeltas now.
20. New codex still sucks against anti-mech gunlines, Annihilation missions, and now assault. -- Sisters have always been able to tarpit. They now have access to a ld10 stubborn char that you can use weight of bodies to prevent from basing. Claims that C:WH featured a more potent assault phase then this are tenuous at best. Especially without a wargear section. Especially without a points cost associated with anything.

tl:dr - Hang on for points and wargear, until then we won't be able to validate most of your qualms.

And this is where I shelve my Sisters of Battle. D:

I notice that the rules for the 'Exorcist Launcher' haven't been released yet :( Anyone else wanna bet on that getting nerfed too?

From what i've seen, the only units worth taking are Seraphim and Dominions (maybe Retributors too if their price is right). Sadly, it looks like we'll be forced to run regular SoB as our troop units.

As Grog says, the only way to play C:WH effectively was to mech everything in the army. With Spirit of the Martyr taken away from us, putting everything in transports is even more essential which, as said, is gonna screw the army over on killpoints.

I'm very unhappy with what i've seen so far; too much nerf for my liking. I hope the second part in september will give the army a bit of a boost in terms of special rules for the vehicles and hopefully squad upgrades. Sadly, seeing as how everything else has a 'stripped-down' feel to it i suspect we will see a more basic version of the armoury in C:WH

If previous WD codices are any indication, the wargear section will be incredibly bare so don't think that will be full of list saving fun. I think an item that generates more faith points is the best we can hope for, not anything that will make that list competitive.

And the whiners have had their say but I've seen a few people that seem to actually think this thing has potential. What is actual good about this list? I don't mean what can you scrape by with, but what is actually something you like. Only thing I can think of is the scouting dominions and Seraphim are better at shooting now (but much worse at CC). Stuff like rhinos being brought in line with their Space Marine counterparts don't count since that should have been fixing via a faq years ago.

One thing I don't get is people saying they will suffer through this. This list looks like a mess so why would you want to waste your time playing that? If you play with friends, just ask to use your old codex and don't bother entering a tourney with this thing anyway so it doesn't matter if its "legal." Normally I don't agree with people using older books, but this isn't really anything more than a rush job to get rid of certain aspects of the army so everything is in line without really consulting any actual polayers to know how the list works. I guess if all you do is play pick up games at GW stores you would have to play the most current book but if you are doing that why bother playing at all?

MittinsKittens wrote:Hey. I'm just wondering, Has this months WD been released or are we still going on the rumours that these are actual scans (as real as they look...)?

Just curious...

And for that matter, when do WD's usually get released?

WD will be out this Saturday.

They are now released on the last Saturday of a month -- guess Xmas/similar will change that at times.

Subscribers, unless you have yours delivered to the store, will get their copies next week.

GBL wrote:Why dont you try the WD codex when the points costs and wargear are released? You might just be pleasantly surprised.

Funny how you pick Orks and Nids as examples. Both good armies with real tactics that had fans screeching like this when they were released.

I was one of the people who had their entire army completely destroyed by the move from 4th to 5th Guard Codexes. With droptroops removed they told me if i wanted to replicate that feat i had to purchase Valkyries for my 120 Guardsmen. On top of that, whilst i acknowledge that the new codex is powerful its not as fun. But what did i do when that happened?

Well i didnt pick a fight with a stranger on the internet because they shared a differing viewpoint.

You basically completely discredited yourself with the parts in bold. The Nid book is utter rubbish. It's Cruddace's knee jerk reaction to his underpriced Guard Codex, which I find it funny that you play. smh

Holy_doctrine wrote:And this is where I shelve my Sisters of Battle. D:

They can sit next to my Chaos Space Marines. When we get codices that aren't failures we can dance together and be happy.

I'm thinking I'll want to wait and see for next month...but it doesn't look good. It looks barebones and generic...like that period of time where they decided this was going to be the standard thing and did that with Eldar, Dark Angels, BA (in a WD list) and Chaos. Woah. Did we hit a time warp or something? We've gone backwards with codex progression!

streamdragon wrote:

GBL wrote:Why dont you try the WD codex when the points costs and wargear are released? You might just be pleasantly surprised.

Funny how you pick Orks and Nids as examples. Both good armies with real tactics that had fans screeching like this when they were released.

I was one of the people who had their entire army completely destroyed by the move from 4th to 5th Guard Codexes. With droptroops removed they told me if i wanted to replicate that feat i had to purchase Valkyries for my 120 Guardsmen. On top of that, whilst i acknowledge that the new codex is powerful its not as fun. But what did i do when that happened?

Well i didnt pick a fight with a stranger on the internet because they shared a differing viewpoint.

You basically completely discredited yourself with the parts in bold. The Nid book is utter rubbish. It's Cruddace's knee jerk reaction to his underpriced Guard Codex, which I find it funny that you play. smh

Not as good as the 4th ed one certainly, and obviously concocted to sell more models, however it has a few good builds, new interesting special monsters. Overall i like it.

Also, has anyone noticed that Arco-Flagellants now have wargear listed as "Arco-Flails (close combat weapon)". Good bye power weapon attacks it seems.

streamdragon wrote:
You basically completely discredited yourself with the parts in bold. The Nid book is utter rubbish. It's Cruddace's knee jerk reaction to his underpriced Guard Codex, which I find it funny that you play. smh

Sad thing is I rate my Tyranids over my CSM at the moment. You can at least get some variety with them as opposed to pretty much every Chaos list which tends to be identical. Doesn't stop the 'nid codex being downright awful is several places.

But Sisters seem more like CSM with their generic and bland nature in what we've seen than Nids.

GBL wrote:Not as good as the 4th ed one certainly, and obviously concocted to sell more models, however it has a few good builds, new interesting special monsters. Overall i like it.

You like that they castrated the carnifex, removed almost all our invulnerable saves, removed EW from Synapse so that in a world of missle spam we can lose our multi-wound models left and right, hamstrung Hormagaunts, removed almost all the bio-morph options and thus customization of the army, made Lictors useless, made Shadow in the Warp nigh-pointless and heck, even reduced spore mines to a single type? But hey, we got the Pyrovore out of it, right?


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DarkStarSabre wrote:

streamdragon wrote:
You basically completely discredited yourself with the parts in bold. The Nid book is utter rubbish. It's Cruddace's knee jerk reaction to his underpriced Guard Codex, which I find it funny that you play. smh

Sad thing is I rate my Tyranids over my CSM at the moment. You can at least get some variety with them as opposed to pretty much every Chaos list which tends to be identical. Doesn't stop the 'nid codex being downright awful is several places.

But Sisters seem more like CSM with their generic and bland nature in what we've seen than Nids.

While I have never used Chaos myself, my friend plays them from time to time. I admit that the new book is a drastic step down from the last, far too drastic a step down. The old book was a bit over the top though. A Khorne Demon Prince built correctly could take out half an army himself. Still, Chaos players didn't deserve the new book.

That said, with the option to build a faux-"Book" army (by which I mean the "Books" from the last codex: World Eaters, 1K Sons, etc.) you can still get several different viable builds. You may not get all the bells and whistles of the old non-weapon wargear (Collars of Khorne and the like), but you can still have an army comprised of all Noise Marines or what have you. Again though, I've never used the book myself, so you'll have to tell me if that's even effective or not.

Nids at this point come down to "Do you want 2 units of Zoanthropes and 1 unit of Hive Guard, or vice versa?". Okay, probably a bit simplified, but too many of our units became nigh worthless that the number of choices comes down to "include the good unit" or "include the unit I like for fluffy reasons". (See: Trygon vs. Carnifex, Zoanthrope/Hive Guard vs. Lictors, etc).

streamdragon wrote:Also, has anyone noticed that Arco-Flagellants now have wargear listed as "Arco-Flails (close combat weapon)". Good bye power weapon attacks it seems.

Yeah they took those out in the Grey Knights so that was to be expected. What WASN'T however is that they would reduce the new strength from 5 to 4 since I guess Sisters have punier monster men. I assume they got nostalgic for Sisters having crappy versions of standard stuff other armies had (outdated rhinos, land raiders without assault ramps even after a faq fixed the demon hunters one, etc) and had to get that retro feel.

That or Cruddace is an idiot.

Ixquic wrote:

streamdragon wrote:Also, has anyone noticed that Arco-Flagellants now have wargear listed as "Arco-Flails (close combat weapon)". Good bye power weapon attacks it seems.

Yeah they took those out in the Grey Knights so that was to be expected. What WASN'T however is that they would reduce the new strength from 5 to 4 since I guess Sisters have punier monster men. I assume they got nostalgic for Sisters having crappy versions of standard stuff other armies had (outdated rhinos, land raiders without assault ramps even after a faq fixed the demon hunters one, etc) and had to get that retro feel.

Ah, still haven't had a chance to peruse the GK dex, so I didn't realize. :-\ Did they also get dropped to T3 instead of T5 like the old WH codex?

Edit: holy crap, and go from I4 to I3 and 4+ save to none? WTF?

Yeah they changed their stats pretty significantly with the new GK codex and this is pretty much the same other than the odd strength reduction. Honestly strength 4 power weapons are better than strength 5 regular weapons anyway so death cult assassins are the better deal but it's just the icing on the crap sundae that they didn't care enough to even double check that they had that stat copy-pasted right.

GBL wrote:
In your opinion.

In mine the last sisters dex had several glaring faults, the least of which was that they basically ignored morale based on a badly worded piece of wargear, and this one fixes those issues in their entirety.

If thats yoru opinion, perhaps we should start fixing various space wolf and Blood angel abilties and wargear in the same manner....


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GBL wrote:
Each of these have exceptions to morale, but after a certain point still flee. Orks lose numbers, Guard and Nids lose HQ units. These are fluffy exceptions. Sisters threw a book (of all things) at their units and gained stubborn.

So now your an expert on fluff? You do know that when the book holder dies(martyrs) that they too will flee. Perhaps you should pay more attention.

It was terribly worded, and causes arguments everytime i see it played.

But the keyword is was. Even if GW cant string decent pricing together they do seem to be on top of their games.

Perhaps it wasnt the book, but the person. No one I knew who played with or against it argued.

carmachu wrote:
If thats yoru opinion, perhaps we should start fixing various space wolf and Blood angel abilties and wargear in the same manner....

It's almost like someone doesn't like Wolf Wolfborn of the Space Wolves with his Wolf Tail Talismans, Wolf Claws, his Wolf sagas and his giant Wolf.

Even if the points costs make up for this, I'll probably be shelving my sisters until the new codex. Why did they even bother releasing this piece of gak when we could have played with the old, almost good, codex until they released a real one?

streamdragon wrote:Ah, still haven't had a chance to peruse the GK dex, so I didn't realize. :-\ Did they also get dropped to T3 instead of T5 like the old WH codex?

Edit: holy crap, and go from I4 to I3 and 4+ save to none? WTF?

Please read all the special rules first, they have Feel no Pain which is a billion times better than a 4+ save

GW releases something and the internet explodes into nerd-rage? Surely not... I think it's become SOP to decry everything new as obscene, horrific and horribly nerfed/overpowered before adding in the mandatory statement about punching Ward/Cruddace. Yawn. Change the record.

For what its worth I never played Sisters when they were C:WH; the Faith system was convoluted, confusing and required a pen and paper to keep track of throughout the game. I like that this has been done away with, and replaced with a much simpler system. I'm a little 'meh' about the limited number of Faith points, but I'm confident there will be a way to increase the number via wargear. I also like the fact that each squad has their own Act to call upon, it should make for some variety in a Sister's army rather than just Battle Sister/Celestian/Immolator/Exorcist spam.

Wait for the points costs and the wargear to arrive and then we can start crying about falling skies. Until then, I'm quite optimistic for this new release.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:GW releases something and the internet explodes into nerd-rage? Surely not... I think it's become SOP to decry everything new as obscene, horrific and horribly nerfed/overpowered before adding in the mandatory statement about punching Ward/Cruddace. Yawn. Change the record.

For what its worth I never played Sisters when they were C:WH; the Faith system was convoluted, confusing and required a pen and paper to keep track of throughout the game. I like that this has been done away with, and replaced with a much simpler system. I'm a little 'meh' about the limited number of Faith points, but I'm confident there will be a way to increase the number via wargear. I also like the fact that each squad has their own Act to call upon, it should make for some variety in a Sister's army rather than just Battle Sister/Celestian/Immolator/Exorcist spam.

Wait for the points costs and the wargear to arrive and then we can start crying about falling skies. Until then, I'm quite optimistic for this new release.

L. Wrex

Might I suggest that you thought the faith system was confusing because you never bothered to look into it? The system was extremely simple and even intuitive (test either over or under squad size, based on the effect...it's not that hard), and you just used a counter to keep track of your faith points like you would game turns. Who was actually scribbling this down on paper? No wonder you thought it was convoluted.

The old system:

1) Check that you have enough Faith points left to activate an Act.
2) Look through Acts of Faith to find the one you want
3) Find out whether you need to roll under or over the squad size.
4) Roll to activate Act.

The new system:

(At the start of the turn) Roll a D6
1) Decide which unit has an Act you want to activate.
2) Roll a D6.

Whilst I would like to see a way to increase the Faith point number, the new system is, I believe, just a lot better and easier to use. Must just be me...

L. Wrex

The old faith system was incredibly simple, probably just as simple than this one once you get the hang of it.

Faith point added pre-battle for every faithful unit as displayed by army list.
Use one faith point per ability, roll equal to or under squad size for offensive powers, equal to or over for defensive.
Faith point for every faithful model that dies.
Faith points can be recorded with tokens, something other miniature games use regularly.

The new system is more designed around luck and less around choosing when to tactically use which powers. It's not even really that much simpler and still requires tokens to keep track of points.

The armory will be bare bones. Expect to see entries for about five army specific items and then whatever generic stuff the models have access to. It's not going to save the list and even if points values are lower, spamming models isn't going to help and on top of that who wants to have to buy more expensive models that are going to be obsolete when the plastics people are waiting for are released?

Like I asked before, what is GOOD about this list? It looks like the only troop chooses now are Battle Sisters and maybe Celestians so I doubt that you will see a huge increase in the other units that they didn't really fix the problems with (Repentia, Penitent Engines).

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:The old system:

1) Check that you have enough Faith points left to activate an Act.
2) Look through Acts of Faith to find the one you want
3) Find out whether you need to roll under or over the squad size.
4) Roll to activate Act.

The new system:

(At the start of the turn) Roll a D6
1) Decide which unit has an Act you want to activate.
2) Roll a D6.

Whilst I would like to see a way to increase the Faith point number, the new system is, I believe, just a lot better and easier to use. Must just be me...

L. Wrex

Claiming that you have to figure out which faith power you want to use and then the over or under as complications is disingenuous. Any Sister player with four games under his or her belt will know when to use the AP1 power, when to use the 3++ power, when to auto rally and so forth. It doesn't take a high school degree to remember those abilities. Like I said before, offensive are under and defensive are over so it's not complicated. Making the army less versatile because some people can't be bothered to remember one page is stupid, especially when those players don't even play the army.

morgendonner wrote:

Yes I3 is disappointing.. but when were you assaulting with your sisters anyway? Yea maybe you kill a marine or two when you get charged but that's not going to win you a game. I'll gladly trade down to I3 to gain a 6++ and a sharply reduced points cost. Not to mention if Battle Sisters can in fact go into squads of 5 and take Immo's as DT's.

Once again, those that dont play sisters are showing up in the ignorant peanut gallery again.

We were assualting quite alot with serpahim, and lesser extent celestians. Serpahims JOB was to hold up units in assualt, and with I4 you could boost to I6 and go first, on a charge with divine guidance you could wreck a squad of marines and wipe them out, especially after shooting. And if not, you held them up for a turn and hit and run away.

With regular sisters, you could do similar things.

Yeah 6++ is meaningless and I can't believe anyone would claim that as a bonus.

The Arco-flagellant changes in the GK Codex was pretty disappointing.

The strength difference between the GK Arco and the one presented in this WD 'dex is distressing though for a couple of reasons. If the Ecclesiarchy version is indeed supposed to be weaker that's simply unfair and, even worse, it will cause confusion in a game that is already too convoluted with rules variations.

More likely it is a mistake that will need to be rectified with yet another errata/faq. That's just as bad because it shows how cobbled together this stop-gap codex is. What GW needs more than anything is a good editor and a director of continuity.

I'll be getting the White Dwarf simply because I collect everything Sisters-related in print. I won't be using 40K to play them though

Seriously, if you love the models and fluff, port them into another Sci-fi system. There's so many good games out there its hard to choose.

GBL wrote:
Funny how you pick Orks and Nids as examples. Both good armies with real tactics that had fans screeching like this when they were released.

Its again obvious that you play neither nids nor orks. There are many many nid players that want to crotch punch the author of the hive guard and tyrgon codex. Many more that think they ruined them. Orks faired better, but thats not saying much compared to nids.

I was one of the people who had their entire army completely destroyed by the move from 4th to 5th Guard Codexes. With droptroops removed they told me if i wanted to replicate that feat i had to purchase Valkyries for my 120 Guardsmen. On top of that, whilst i acknowledge that the new codex is powerful its not as fun. But what did i do when that happened?

Well i didnt pick a fight with a stranger on the internet because they shared a differing viewpoint.

You mean like your doing now over an army you dont even play?


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morgendonner wrote:Goatboy posted up a nice little blurb on the sisters part 1. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/07/goatboy-revenge-of-sistahs.html I think he makes some good points that really make a case for the argument that it's too soon to make judgements.

I read it twice. Perhaps you can point me to the good poiints that make any arguement that its too soon. Because I didnt see anything remotely like that.


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Nephil1m wrote:

4. Seraphims, a unit traditionally performs well in assault, no longer performs well in assault. -- Seraphim have never been able to deal with dedicated hth units.

9. Canoness doesn't have a retinue anymore and is easy to instant kill. -- Canoness + Retinue has never been able to handle a dedicated hth unit.

Incorrect on both parts, depending on the dedicated HTH units. Mine ate old school witches and assault marines for breakfast, and would get bogged down my 30 man ork units, even after shooting some down. Assualt terminators and thunderwolves were a problem, but they didnt have to win, just hold and hit and run(seraphim). Cannoness, depending of the loadout, could handle quite a bit on her own.


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DarkStarSabre wrote:

carmachu wrote:
If thats yoru opinion, perhaps we should start fixing various space wolf and Blood angel abilties and wargear in the same manner....

It's almost like someone doesn't like Wolf Wolfborn of the Space Wolves with his Wolf Tail Talismans, Wolf Claws, his Wolf sagas and his giant Wolf.

I honestly dont care what SW have. But I would LOVE to see SW players reaction to their book and items getting their teeth pulled just like sisters.....I bet it wouldnt be pretty.

Nephil1m wrote:

I think I can find much twice as much.

1. Immolator can't shoot after moving over 6" combat speed. -- Adjusted points may not be a problem.

Uh, the whole point is that it is a fast vehicle that can deliver a short-ranged template. The fact that its threat range is so neutered means it doesn't really matter how much it costs. Undoubtedly it will just have the price sticker of a razorback. I don't remember the last razorback spam army I saw to be packing too many heavy flamers in their turrets.

4. Seraphims, a unit traditionally performs well in assault, no longer performs well in assault. -- Seraphim have never been able to deal with dedicated hth units.

With automatic hit&run, I4 base, and faith powers to gain +2 S or +2 I or a 3+ invulnerable save means they were far far more capable than they are now.

11. Seraphims and Celestians are now I3. -- Does suck, but this army wins in the shooting phase.

I don't see how boltguns win the shooting phase against IG gunlines or Longfang/Psycannon spam.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
For what its worth I never played Sisters when they were C:WH; the Faith system was convoluted, confusing and required a pen and paper to keep track of throughout the game. I like that this has been done away with, and replaced with a much simpler system. I'm a little 'meh' about the limited number of Faith points, but I'm confident there will be a way to increase the number via wargear. I also like the fact that each squad has their own Act to call upon, it should make for some variety in a Sister's army rather than just Battle Sister/Celestian/Immolator/Exorcist spam.

So....your complaining about a system you didnt use, in an army that you dont play, and dont understand, and gald its streamlined?

Did you think before you typed? Its like saying "synapse is too hard to understand, but I dont play nids, so change it"

carmachu wrote: But I would LOVE to see SW players reaction to their book and items getting their teeth pulled just like sisters.....I bet it wouldnt be pretty.

I'm a CSM player sir.

Been there. Done that. Welcome to the club. In that corner we have the Eldar and their outdated design theory (thanks Jervis) and over there we have the Tyranids who twitch whenever you mention a Pyrovore. For a while we had the Dark Angels who gloomed in that corner over yonder but they got FAQed and ditched us at the drop of a hat.

I think we are all agreed.

All the codexes in the game are crap except for IG and the loyalist SMs.



That's the way I like it!

carmachu wrote:So....your complaining about a system you didnt use, in an army that you dont play, and dont understand, and gald its streamlined?

Did you think before you typed? Its like saying "synapse is too hard to understand, but I dont play nids, so change it"

So everyone who doesn't play Grey Knights has no business commenting on their changes? Everyone who doesn't play Blood Angels, Space Wolves, IG, Chaos or any army other than the one they own should shut up, mind their own business and not dare offer their opinion on the mechanics behind the race? Tell me, did you think before you typed?

L. Wrex

I'm certainly not going to go into a thread about, let's say, unpleasant Space Wolf changes when I don't play that army, admit I was confused by their main mechanic, cheer-lead an obvious nerf and then call them all whiners despite several detailed lists as to the problems the new changes will create and act like I know better without any supporting arguments.

Ixquic wrote:Like I asked before, what is GOOD about this list?

The good thing about this list is that Sisters haven't been squatted, and you'll most likely get a new, strong codex soon.

And I don't mean that to say the list is necessarily bad (points costs can change everything...or not) or that the army deserves to bite the dust. I just think that if you take a step back and consider what army GW would be most likely to cancel in 40K, it'd almost certainly be Sisters (at least now that DE are back and revitalized). It's a relatively unpopular army with sketchy model availability and a PDF codex. The GK codex and the likely release of 6th edition would seem to have forced a GO/NO-GO decision from GW...and with this "release" it looks like they gave it a GO. Which is a very good thing, because as is I don't think the business case for Sisters is an obvious slam dunk.

Again, so I'm being *crystal clear* -- I'm *for* the army sticking around. I'm aware of how model availability, etc. negatively affects the army's popularity. And I think a new, real codex with a return to the Ecclesiarchy roots, plastic minis, etc. will give the army a big boost. I think revitalized Sisters would be cool to see. But if GW had cancelled the army and told players to play 'em as SM, I wouldn't have been shocked.

I know how this comes off as faint praise, but I really think people are missing the bigger picture here -- it's far, far better to be on the "active" side of the ledger than the "discontinued" side. Once you lose a legal army list, it's an uphill battle getting one back. See Cults, Genestealer; LatD, etc. I know the barebones army list is frustrating, but if you guys can be patient, I have a feeling you'll be rewarded in a major way.

SonicPara wrote:40 Points for a Palatine with a 12" bubble (6" radius) of unstoppable Ld9 is overpriced?

Considering she has no weapons (no, literally, she has nothing but her bare power armored gauntlets, no pistol, no CCW, she's punching and kicking and throwing rocks) at that points level, yes. She should really have it for free-- aside from Tau, I can't think of any other army that has to PAY for their squad's leadership rules, even Guard have Orders regardless of whether or not they have a commissar or voxcaster.

Heck the Lord Commissar essentially has a BoSL for 70 points and he is chock full of starting equipment and other abilities (frags/kraks, execution rerolls, refractor field, bp+ccw) and has superior statline than the Palatine to boot, the only advantages said Palatine you mentioned has are I4 and power armor-- the LC has higher WS, an extra wound, two more attacks, and a higher Ld rating-- and the Guardsmen have a bigger bonus from the LC (+3 Ld) than Sisters have from the Palatine (+1 Ld). And yet said LC isn't exactly considered the most popular or broken thing in 40k, but apparently a FAR less useful BoSL is?

The thing is, Guard doesn't even need that because they have Orders instead, something that they have without even needing a higher officer, just platoons give them Orders. For free, and that even comes WITH the reduced price of guardsmen compared to previous.

People who think the BoSL is overpriced / overpowered / broken are wrong, and always have been.

SonicPara wrote:how is that bad?

For the same reason it woudl be bad if you dropped Marines to a GEQ statline and then still tried to call them Marines. Would you like to see horde Marines with crappy statlines?

Oh wait. We already are. They're in the new SoB codex. What, you don't believe me? GW even turned Immolators into crappy razorbacks and gave Sisters a Command Squad identical to the one Marines have. And people *****ed about my codex adding too much marine crap-- at least I TRIED to make everything unique. GW just plopped a bunch of marine bullgak onto Sisters stuff, nerfed the hell out of everything, wrote up a confusing and useless new Acts of Faith rule, and called it a day without ever bothering to playtest.

I just want to add something else into the conversation. To all of you people who are saying that sisters may be cheaper now and that will help. I reply , How, when you can't buy any more models (foot or vehicle) can you fill out your army? So if someone has a 2000 point army now and GW drops the cost of all sisters entries by, say, 20% how does that person now make up the points needed to get back to 2000? Yes, you can now field more sisters IF YOU CAN FIND THEM otherwise you're s.o.l..

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

So everyone who doesn't play Grey Knights has no business commenting on their changes? Everyone who doesn't play Blood Angels, Space Wolves, IG, Chaos or any army other than the one they own should shut up, mind their own business and not dare offer their opinion on the mechanics behind the race? Tell me, did you think before you typed?

L. Wrex

I listen to ignorant people talking about how the army should work or how things were too complicated and are glad its stream lined, and how I3 is no big deal since you cant win comabat....and none of you people have a CLUE of what your talking about.

Comment all you want. But you get called on your ignorance pretty quick when you, much like more then a few folks, dont know jack or crap of what their talking about. Either speak with some kind of knowelege, or dont. Because I dont need to listen to someone coming in and saying that their glad the AoF are streamlined because they were complicated.....and he's never once used them. Thats just stupid.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:I just want to add something else into the conversation. To all of you people who are saying that sisters may be cheaper now and that will help. I reply , How, when you can't buy any more models (foot or vehicle) can you fill out your army? So if someone has a 2000 point army now and GW drops the cost of all sisters entries by, say, 20% how does that person now make up the points needed to get back to 2000? Yes, you can now field more sisters IF YOU CAN FIND THEM otherwise you're s.o.l..

Well some of us have 5 or 6 thousand points of sisters painted....plus squirreled away some more for a rainy day.

carmachu wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

So everyone who doesn't play Grey Knights has no business commenting on their changes? Everyone who doesn't play Blood Angels, Space Wolves, IG, Chaos or any army other than the one they own should shut up, mind their own business and not dare offer their opinion on the mechanics behind the race? Tell me, did you think before you typed?

L. Wrex

I listen to ignorant people talking about how the army should work or how things were too complicated and are glad its stream lined, and how I3 is no big deal since you cant win comabat....and none of you people have a CLUE of what your talking about.

Comment all you want. But you get called on your ignorance pretty quick when you, much like more then a few folks, dont know jack or crap of what their talking about. Either speak with some kind of knowelege, or dont. Because I dont need to listen to someone coming in and saying that their glad the AoF are streamlined because they were complicated.....and he's never once used them. Thats just stupid.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:I just want to add something else into the conversation. To all of you people who are saying that sisters may be cheaper now and that will help. I reply , How, when you can't buy any more models (foot or vehicle) can you fill out your army? So if someone has a 2000 point army now and GW drops the cost of all sisters entries by, say, 20% how does that person now make up the points needed to get back to 2000? Yes, you can now field more sisters IF YOU CAN FIND THEM otherwise you're s.o.l..

Well some of us have 5 or 6 thousand points of sisters painted....plus squirreled away some more for a rainy day.

i have with C:WH .... 5000pts built.... mostly painted. I won a NE US GT with sisters in 2009.... This codex by rules nerf them... unless.... they cost very little... 10 sisters for 50pts would be a huge buff even with these bad rules.

Oh man I don't wanna think about how much money that would cost to build an army...

Unfortunately, I think the worst is yet to come. I don't think that they will get any cheaper, I think they will get more expensive. if they have a 3+ armor save, bolter, and a 6+ invul, I think that they will be priced at 12 points. Personally, I would point them around 9 points if I was designing the codex, but based on GW pointing trends, I think we will see 12 points sisters.

Melissia wrote:Considering she has no weapons (no, literally, she has nothing but her bare power armored gauntlets, no pistol, no CCW, she's punching and kicking and throwing rocks) at that points level, yes. She should really have it for free-- aside from Tau, I can't think of any other army that has to PAY for their squad's leadership rules, even Guard have Orders regardless of whether or not they have a commissar or voxcaster.

A Palatine with BoSL is quite clearly a support character and one that you would use simply for the bubble (that bubble is well worth the 40 points, close combat ability aside). Such characters are not unique to the Sisters. As for your complaints about IG well we all know that IG is a horribly broken mistake and only the most unrealistic IG fans will argue with you about that. I also never said that the naked Palatine with BoSL was undercosted or anything, I think it was simply quite good. Sure I would pay more points to have the same effect with my Tau and I actually do; I play Shadowsun. Of course she is more capable than a naked Palatine but she is also close to 5x the price.

Melissia wrote:For the same reason it woudl be bad if you dropped Marines to a GEQ statline and then still tried to call them Marines. Would you like to see horde Marines with crappy statlines?

Oh wait. We already are. They're in the new SoB codex. What, you don't believe me? GW even turned Immolators into crappy razorbacks and gave Sisters a Command Squad identical to the one Marines have. And people *****ed about my codex adding too much marine crap-- at least I TRIED to make everything unique. GW just plopped a bunch of marine bullgak onto Sisters stuff, nerfed the hell out of everything, wrote up a confusing and useless new Acts of Faith rule, and called it a day without ever bothering to playtest.

I agree that the new Act of Faith system should scale to the size of your list but that is about it. You of all people should know that Sisters aren't absurdly huge and genetically enhanced Marines so they shouldn't have a statline that rivals them. Sisters should rival Marines in their natural Ballistic Skill (which this WD represents), their access to themed wargear (melta/flamer), and their fanatic leadership. Sure, they seem to have been screwed out of rock-solid leadership but we can't say for sure. For all we know every unit will have a form of BoSL that takes the Ld of the Cannoness unmodified regardless of their position on the table. This isn't based on any rumors or anything but if Dark Angels can do the blanket leadership and Sisters are fanatics then why couldn't they?

Essentially, the point is to stop your crying until you know the whole picture. You literally just know the statline and nothing else. You don't know points cost, wargear, options, force organizational chart, and a number of other factors that decide whether the army will be solid or not. If GW had just released the statlines for Grey Knights then C: DH players would have been complaining about the standard Marine statline, only to find that they were crying so much over a codex that ended up being really powerful; the same could happen here. Complain if you want but if the next WD comes out and the further details show Sisters as being awesome, you are going to feel like a fool and the last 14 or so pages of this thread will be a written record of just why. I would recommend calming yourself until the next WD.

sharkticon wrote:Unfortunately, I think the worst is yet to come. I don't think that they will get any cheaper, I think they will get more expensive. if they have a 3+ armor save, bolter, and a 6+ invul, I think that they will be priced at 12 points. Personally, I would point them around 9 points if I was designing the codex, but based on GW pointing trends, I think we will see 12 points sisters.

After all the nerfing, you think up by 1 point is fair? Really? 6++ is worthless.

He's not saying it's fair just that he won't be surprised based certain trends.

I didn't think of it happening since it's the army is worse it should be obvious that it would be less points per model but now that Skarkticon brought it up I'm somewhat worried.

carmachu wrote:

sharkticon wrote:Unfortunately, I think the worst is yet to come. I don't think that they will get any cheaper, I think they will get more expensive. if they have a 3+ armor save, bolter, and a 6+ invul, I think that they will be priced at 12 points. Personally, I would point them around 9 points if I was designing the codex, but based on GW pointing trends, I think we will see 12 points sisters.

After all the nerfing, you think up by 1 point is fair? Really? 6++ is worthless.

I never said it was fair, I said it's what I think will happen. As stated in my original post, I would drop the points value by a couple.

SonicPara wrote:As for your complaints about IG well we all know that IG is a horribly broken mistake and only the most unrealistic IG fans will argue with you about that.

Well, that statement there makes your opinions on balance as not worth paying attention, to me. Unless you're exaggerating, you seem like you're just mad because codices of armies you don't play happen to beat you.

No. It's not a "horribly broken mistake", there's a few issues (like EVERY codex) but for the most part it's excellently written.

sharkticon wrote:

carmachu wrote:

sharkticon wrote:Unfortunately, I think the worst is yet to come. I don't think that they will get any cheaper, I think they will get more expensive. if they have a 3+ armor save, bolter, and a 6+ invul, I think that they will be priced at 12 points. Personally, I would point them around 9 points if I was designing the codex, but based on GW pointing trends, I think we will see 12 points sisters.

After all the nerfing, you think up by 1 point is fair? Really? 6++ is worthless.

I never said it was fair, I said it's what I think will happen. As stated in my original post, I would drop the points value by a couple.

If the points go up, it'll just be a kick in the nuts after everything else. even 10 points is too much at this point. 8 might be fair, considering everything we have seen so far.

Yeah, if they're 8 points each it MIGHT be competitive, but I'm still not going to use the codex. My Sisters arent' cannon fodder.

I could see 10 points with reduced special and heavy weapon costs I guess.

Problem isn't really the ability to spam more Sisters on the field anyway...

Melissia wrote:Yeah, if they're 8 points each it MIGHT be competitive, but I'm still not going to use the codex. My Sisters arent' cannon fodder.

Yeah if I wanted to spam models with a human statline I'd just play guard.

Melissia wrote:

SonicPara wrote:As for your complaints about IG well we all know that IG is a horribly broken mistake and only the most unrealistic IG fans will argue with you about that.

Well, that statement there makes your opinions worthless to me.

No. It's not a "horribly broken mistake", there's a few issues (like EVERY codex) but for the most part it's excellently written.

Way to focus on the important part of my post, I'm starting to think that you just enjoy being angry.

As for IG there are so many things in that book, same with Space Wolves, that give them power and options beyond what they should have. This is evidenced by both codices always hovering around the top of nearly every tournament and metagame; the IG and Space Wolves books are so overly flexible in comparison to every other codex that they always find a new combination to dismantle the current "super-list." From a writing standpoint sure the IG book is well written but it is one of the worst books when it comes to balancing.

As for my previous post, yes I'm rather agitated by all of the crying going on in this thread but I was giving you and everyone else an honest warning about so freely posting complaints before you even know what you are complaining about. Melissia, for your sake as a well-known member of these forums, you better hope that the second half of the codex ends up being terrible because if it balances it all out then you risk losing any credibility and favor in the public's eye. It is basic PR really, I'm just trying to warn you. Heed my advice or not, it doesn't matter to me. I'm just trying to help.

SonicPara wrote:As for IG there are so many things in that book, same with Space Wolves

And every other fifth edition codex. That's the entire POINT of fifth edition.

Why should I care? I already said even if they're priced properly the codex STILL sucks and STILL destroys the army's feel for the sake of making it a crappy horde army with special rules geared towards a small elite army.

To me, unless the second part repudiates the worst things about the first (most notably, giving back I4 to Celestians/Seraphim), there's simply no way it can redeem itself. At all.

Melissia wrote:

SonicPara wrote:As for IG there are so many things in that book, same with Space Wolves

And every other fifth edition codex. That's the entire POINT of fifth edition.

Again, you avoid the entire post and attempt to discredit the other poster; especially puzzling here as the poster (myself) is trying to help you. I'm done, I've had my fill of whine for weeks and you clearly neither want my advice nor believe that you need it. Have fun complaining about statlines and attacking anyone who disagrees with you, I'm going to go and have fun playing my Tau.

I wasn't trying to "discredit" you (lol?), I was pointing out that I disagree with your opinions and why.

Ixquic wrote:I could see 10 points with reduced special and heavy weapon costs I guess.

Problem isn't really the ability to spam more Sisters on the field anyway...

Melissia wrote:Yeah, if they're 8 points each it MIGHT be competitive, but I'm still not going to use the codex. My Sisters arent' cannon fodder.

Yeah if I wanted to spam models with a human statline I'd just play guard.

10 points is what they use to be before BS 4 upgrade. Cant see them going back to that with everything going on.

Yeah but hasn't everything basically gotten cheaper since then as well?

SonicPara wrote: Melissia, for your sake as a well-known member of these forums, you better hope that the second half of the codex ends up being terrible because if it balances it all out then you risk losing any credibility and favor in the public's eye. It is basic PR really, I'm just trying to warn you. Heed my advice or not, it doesn't matter to me. I'm just trying to help.

Not really you arent.

If the second half of the book follows other WD release armies, I dont think she has much to sweat about. So far what has been released is NOT inspiring confidence on the second part.


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Ixquic wrote:Yeah but hasn't everything basically gotten cheaper since then as well?

Oh heck no. MM's for example got alot more expensive. Seraphim went more expensive(16 to 22 points- TBF, they were underpointed at 16), even Hbolters were more expensive. Immolators I THINK, depending on the loadout did(MM's were more, I think they went down slightly as flamers).

Everything didnt get cheaper. We'll see what the points look like this time around.

No sorry I mean everything else like guardsmen and orks.

Everything didnt get cheaper. We'll see what the points look like this time around.

I think he means in the game as a whole. Transports are generally cheaper, most units are cheaper or gained gear/rules for the same or slight increase in points.

In that vein I'd expect Battle Sister squads to stay the same cost, but get the vet for free. Some weapons probably will be cheaper for units like retributors (ala BA devs or LFs getting their heavies cheaper then 3ed/4ed).

Also we don't know what kind of options and gear is available to the ICs and squad leaders. Its not going to be as extensive as the old book for certain, but it could include some gems that boost the viability of the units or the army as a whole. Could be a handfull of crap options also ala Dark Angels as well, we just don't know.

Because I dont need to listen to someone coming in and saying that their glad the AoF are streamlined because they were complicated.....and he's never once used them. Thats just stupid.

My only issue with the current faith system was the whole over or under squad size thing. I've had more then a few instances of WH players mixing them up, whether intentional or not -- and most players wouldn't have been the wiser if they had.

Not saying it was overly complicated, but having things a bit more straightforward for any player to remember (not just the SoB player) is a good thing in my opinion.

However that didn't mean they had to remove the flexibility of the old system. Having unit specific acts is fine, but there should have been some army wide ones as well, ala Orders. Or perhaps some way to share an act if within a certain distance of one and another. I also think the faith points should have been a bit less streaky, like a 3+d3 per turn or 2d6 pick the highest (without an SC), rather then a d6. But alas that is all just wishlisting.

Yeah I've seen instances of people cheating by declaring a roll was successful when it wasn't and had people get mad when I made a roll but "last time you had to roll under dude..." I like the old system but the army wasn't played as extensively for people who didn't own it to know how it worked well enough when the rest of the game is much more simple.

A new book and plastic models getting more people into it would correct that problem a bit though.

Ixquic wrote:Yeah I've seen instances of people cheating by declaring a roll was successful when it wasn't and had people get mad when I made a roll but "last time you had to roll under dude..." I like the old system but the army wasn't played as extensively for people who didn't own it to know how it worked well enough when the rest of the game is much more simple.

People cheating happens. Doesn matter if it sisters, SW, IG, Chaos or grey knights. Its the person, not the army.

Wait for the points! Wait for the points! Lol...

I'll repeat myself:

To those who say we don't have the full picture, we kinda do. It's essentially the witchhunter's codex version of sisters of battle with all their teeth pulled out.

Everything is normalized and standardized...that it doesn't work is obvious...it hasn't been tested or worked with at all. It's just basic units broken down into their basic components. People hoping for exorcists in vehicle squadrons or extreme point differences are gong to be disappointed. Ditto for the wargear section. If you're expecting unusual or test type gear, well...it's not happening.

Basically if you want to do mech melta, pick up the grey knights codex and make a henchman army.

Don't bother waiting for the 2nd half. When they get a new release, all their models will be redone. Even designing an army based on the WD doesn't make sense, since a new codex will very likely be nothing like it.

Oh, and about points. Grots are 3 points a model. They are dirt cheap. However, ork players don't base their army around grots. Why not? They are cheap, right? Being fundamentally flawed (and totally incapable of hurting any transport) shouldn't matter because they are cheap, right?

carmachu wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Yeah I've seen instances of people cheating by declaring a roll was successful when it wasn't and had people get mad when I made a roll but "last time you had to roll under dude..." I like the old system but the army wasn't played as extensively for people who didn't own it to know how it worked well enough when the rest of the game is much more simple.

People cheating happens. Doesn matter if it sisters, SW, IG, Chaos or grey knights. Its the person, not the army.

I agree. The problem is since the army is underplayed it's easier to cheat or be accused of such. If the army gets a nice new released with cool models and a good book slightly more complicated rules than average won't be a problem anymore.

It is rumoured that the Battlesister armoury has a holy item in it that grants the bearer a special whine attack that can annoy entire units off the table!

Sorry that was in the Chaos Marine book but it was sadly nerfed.

Ixquic wrote:

carmachu wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Yeah I've seen instances of people cheating by declaring a roll was successful when it wasn't and had people get mad when I made a roll but "last time you had to roll under dude..." I like the old system but the army wasn't played as extensively for people who didn't own it to know how it worked well enough when the rest of the game is much more simple.

People cheating happens. Doesn matter if it sisters, SW, IG, Chaos or grey knights. Its the person, not the army.

I agree. The problem is since the army is underplayed it's easier to cheat or be accused of such. If the army gets a nice new released with cool models and a good book slightly more complicated rules than average won't be a problem anymore.

This is true.

Besides, all you'd need to do is change it from squad size to leadership. It'd make sense anyway, a well-motivated Sisters squad would be a very faithful one indeed.

The thing about that I don't like is then it's too much like a psychic test without the drawback of perils so it loses a little of the army flavor.

scuddman wrote:Wait for the points! Wait for the points! Lol...

I'll repeat myself:

To those who say we don't have the full picture, we kinda do. It's essentially the witchhunter's codex version of sisters of battle with all their teeth pulled out.

Everything is normalized and standardized...that it doesn't work is obvious...it hasn't been tested or worked with at all. It's just basic units broken down into their basic components. People hoping for exorcists in vehicle squadrons or extreme point differences are gong to be disappointed. Ditto for the wargear section. If you're expecting unusual or test type gear, well...it's not happening.

Basically if you want to do mech melta, pick up the grey knights codex and make a henchman army.

Don't bother waiting for the 2nd half. When they get a new release, all their models will be redone. Even designing an army based on the WD doesn't make sense, since a new codex will very likely be nothing like it.

Oh, and about points. Grots are 3 points a model. They are dirt cheap. However, ork players don't base their army around grots. Why not? They are cheap, right? Being fundamentally flawed (and totally incapable of hurting any transport) shouldn't matter because they are cheap, right?

Grots aren't played (which is already false, because people do use grots, because they are so cheap) because the other cheap infantry in the dex, Boyz, are superior in nearly every way. However, to illustrate the point that seeing a complete picture of wargear/options/costs can change the way a unit can be seen; if Grots could take 1 Melta Gun per 10 at 5 points a piece, Ork players might reconsider.
I'm not saying the new Sisters "Codex" won't suck, since I can see how many of the changes are going to be debilitating, but the cost and number of options does play a part in the effectiveness of an army. It still bears waiting to see the whole picture before claiming there is no chance of being competitive.

So is the WD with the SoB codex out yet or what? I get confused easily...

TBD wrote:It is rumoured that the Battlesister armoury has a holy item in it that grants the bearer a special whine attack that can annoy entire units off the table!

Very good, but we'll leave this here then please. Appreciated.

It is rather hard to compare a complete codex with a half a codex.

djphranq wrote:So is the WD with the SoB codex out yet or what? I get confused easily...

Scans of the first half are out. Can't post them here but google should be able to steer you to the correct way. The rules posted in this thread have most of the important details.

If you think their point costs are going to be less than guard, you're going to be disappointed.


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Grots aren't played (which is already false, because people do use grots, because they are so cheap) because the other cheap infantry in the dex, Boyz, are superior in nearly every way. However, to illustrate the point that seeing a complete picture of wargear/options/costs can change the way a unit can be seen; if Grots could take 1 Melta Gun per 10 at 5 points a piece, Ork players might reconsider.
I'm not saying the new Sisters "Codex" won't suck, since I can see how many of the changes are going to be debilitating, but the cost and number of options does play a part in the effectiveness of an army. It still bears waiting to see the whole picture before claiming there is no chance of being competitive.

The problem with this analysis is that even if they are priced the same as guard, guard still does what they do better...and have more rules, access to stubborn, orders, artillery, heavy weapons, etc etc. I'm sorry, the point costs at this point are essentially irrelevant unless they're priced like orks.

Yeah there's really no goal behind this list.

Long range heavy firepower is nil. Exorcists are great but not enough to do it themselves. Rending heavy bolters are whatever.
Short range firepower can't get through armor, especially now that rending power is gone.
Meltas are good but after popping a tank they run into the same problem as battle sisters. Guard can do this same thing for cheaper and more effectively with orders.
Reduced combat effectiveness means after short range fire fails they won't be able to stand up to the counter charge.
None of their dedicated CC units will make it to combat except maybe the priest squad if it can take a transport and then it doesn't even have frag grenades so I hope it isn't charging into cover.

Except for the fact that Sisters have a 3+ save and Guard/Orks do not... Sisters are inherently more survivable than Guard are by the very fact that they will save against 2/3rds of all shots directed against them vs. guard at 1/3 and orks at 1/6.

They are also WS3 T3. A 3+ is cute but won't keep you alive enough to matter when the rest of your strategy requires you to get incredibly close to stuff much tougher without crazy rules to make you leadership 10 and stubborn like those armies do.

WS3/T3/I3. Even their elites are now I3, meaning the earmy is even WORSE in assault than before, especially with the inferior and vastly more limited acts of faith we have access to now.

Celestians before could stand a good chance of beating tacticals/devastators on the assault, with holy hatred (hit more often), the bonus from charging, and either The Passion or Hand of the Emperor (the previous, superior versions, not the current crappy ones) -- or even no act at all if they had a priest and/or flamer/heavy flamer/combiflamer.

Now, they will always lose to tacticals/devastators barring raw luck.

chaos0xomega wrote:Except for the fact that Sisters have a 3+ save and Guard/Orks do not... Sisters are inherently more survivable than Guard are by the very fact that they will save against 2/3rds of all shots directed against them vs. guard at 1/3 and orks at 1/6.

This analysis is wrong too. Guard win by being cheap. It's essentially not worth the effort to pop a chimera and kill the insides...that's what makes that army effective. What makes that even nastier is you have to get through a hail of firepower to get at the guard. However, for sisters of battle to work, they have to get within 12" or less (for flamers). That means when you shoot, if they aren't dead, you get assaulted. Your 3+ save doesn't matter when you get sweeping advanced...as the sisters can't even hold a candle in hth to tactical marines.

It's the necron problem...they can't stop assaults...

Think about it...how come nobody buys carapace vets? Because paying extra points for the +1 armor save is a waste of points.

Sistsers can't even hold a candle to devastators. That's right, in the WD codex (unlike C:WH) Sisters assault squads get out-assaulted by Marine heavy weapons squads.

I feel your pain, but background-wise, that's probably not too far from the truth!

OK, wasn't the BA WD codex bad, and then replaced by a good 'regular' codex?

I feel bad for SoB players, but after yet more delays, you should eventually have something really good.

Maybe?

scuddman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Except for the fact that Sisters have a 3+ save and Guard/Orks do not... Sisters are inherently more survivable than Guard are by the very fact that they will save against 2/3rds of all shots directed against them vs. guard at 1/3 and orks at 1/6.

This analysis is wrong too. Guard win by being cheap. It's essentially not worth the effort to pop a chimera and kill the insides...that's what makes that army effective. What makes that even nastier is you have to get through a hail of firepower to get at the guard. However, for sisters of battle to work, they have to get within 12" or less (for flamers). That means when you shoot, if they aren't dead, you get assaulted. Your 3+ save doesn't matter when you get sweeping advanced...as the sisters can't even hold a candle in hth to tactical marines.

It's the necron problem...they can't stop assaults...

Think about it...how come nobody buys carapace vets? Because paying extra points for the +1 armor save is a waste of points.

You do realize that sisters have access to transport vehicles right? They are still way more survivable than guard, not only does your opponent have to pop the transport, but he then has to fight his way through a unit of minis that are twice as hard to kill as guard, I.E. it requires more effort than to kill a similarly sized guard squad, especially if the vehicles get the benefit of an invul save as well.

Yeah if neither side has the charge bonus (and nothing in the Sister book really helps with that really) the Devistators do more wounds if both units are the same size which is pretty sad. It gets closer if they use their crappy +1 strength ability but if you haven't taken any wounds and don't have an IC in the unit that's a 50% chance of working which isn't worth counting on.

chaos0xomega wrote:

scuddman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Except for the fact that Sisters have a 3+ save and Guard/Orks do not... Sisters are inherently more survivable than Guard are by the very fact that they will save against 2/3rds of all shots directed against them vs. guard at 1/3 and orks at 1/6.

This analysis is wrong too. Guard win by being cheap. It's essentially not worth the effort to pop a chimera and kill the insides...that's what makes that army effective. What makes that even nastier is you have to get through a hail of firepower to get at the guard. However, for sisters of battle to work, they have to get within 12" or less (for flamers). That means when you shoot, if they aren't dead, you get assaulted. Your 3+ save doesn't matter when you get sweeping advanced...as the sisters can't even hold a candle in hth to tactical marines.

It's the necron problem...they can't stop assaults...

Think about it...how come nobody buys carapace vets? Because paying extra points for the +1 armor save is a waste of points.

You do realize that sisters have access to transport vehicles right? They are still way more survivable than guard, not only does your opponent have to pop the transport, but he then has to fight his way through a unit of minis that are twice as hard to kill as guard, I.E. it requires more effort than to kill a similarly sized guard squad, especially if the vehicles get the benefit of an invul save as well.

No you are wrong. No matter how many Guard you kill if the player wants that unit to stay there are ways to make that happen using either commands to rally or un-targetable commissars to make the unit stick. A 3+ save isn't going to make that unit stick around when you are taking a large amount of wounds and have no way to avoid taking a leadership test with a healthy negative modifier. Sisters are 1 attack at strength 3 WS 3. They are not doing any wounds themselves. When you factor in power weapons and rending (which are plentiful on dedicated CC units) their armor advantage is totally negated.

I also can't believe you are also factoring a 6++ save on vehicles like that matters at all.

Alpharius wrote:I feel your pain, but background-wise, that's probably not too far from the truth!

OK, wasn't the BA WD codex bad, and then replaced by a good 'regular' codex?

I feel bad for SoB players, but after yet more delays, you should eventually have something really good.

Maybe?

It was only bad in the sense that it was a mono-build army. In fact the old Death Company were actually better than the current ones IMO. The Blood Angel codex wasn't great (as in 1st tier) but it wasn't bad either. Sisters were decently competitive against certain armies but they seem to have lost that edge. We will of course have to wait for the final judgement untilt he 2nd half comes out, but based on what we saw here I'm not holding my breath. Most armies don't have thier make their edge, its usually in the special rules in 5th edition. These rules aren't so great unless the wargear greatly modifies how they currently work.

Sisters still have allt eh problems of their old codex I'm betting with the serious lack of long range firepower. All other Imperial codexes have a huge advantage as almost all their org chart slots have some ldecent ong range shooting. Sisters did not and it seems they still don't based on the fluff writing.

I appreciate what you are tryign to say however. Don't take what i said harshly.

Ixquic wrote:Yeah if neither side has the charge bonus (and nothing in the Sister book really helps with that really) the Devistators do more wounds if both units are the same size which is pretty sad. It gets closer if they use their crappy +1 strength ability but if you haven't taken any wounds and don't have an IC in the unit that's a 50% chance of working which isn't worth counting on.

Said ability also makes them fearless, and since Celestians are I3 now and lost Holy Hatred they will most likely lose combat, meaning more casualties.

Previously....

Celestians hit at the same time as Marines (I4) but more often (Holy Hatred). They wound less often (S3) and are wounded more often (T3), but can make up for that with Hand of the Emperor making them wound more often but strike afterwards (S5 I1, the effect is like the current one but better for having higher strength and no fearless) or The Passion allowing them to strike first (S3 I6) depending on the situation. Celestian squads could benefit from being the retinue of a Canoness, thus allowing the Canoness to hide in the Celestian squad and not be specifically targeted. If they lose combat (which is unlikely, especially with The Passion), they take no leadership modifiers, and if they route, they can regroup with Light of the Emperor.

Currently...

Celestians hit after Marines do (I3), have more chances to hit (2 attacks base),but wound less often (S3) and are wounded more often (T3). With an Act of Faith, they'll wound the same amount, but take more wounds from Fearless when they inevitably lose combat because of I3. With other ICs, they might be able to gain other Acts of Faith, but then that requires the IC to be attached to the specific unit involved, which means the IC will get slaughtered due to being T3. If they lose combat (and they will), they suffer all leadership modifiers, and if they are routed, they are unlikely to regroup.

Better than Sweeping Advanced I guess with I3...

At least there the 3+ is useful.

Seriously the list is such a bummer.

Without points costs or other upgrade options, there's no valid way to declare what level of potency this army has.

DarknessEternal wrote:Without points costs or other upgrade options, there's no valid way to declare what level of potency this army has.

It's pretty easy to declare whether or not it is "cool" anymore, even if by some miracle it's still remotely competitive. Everything that was attractive about this army in the past has been removed...it doesn't even look like fun to play. I shelved my guard army because that gak was so boring; spamming a gak storm of weak troops isn't my, or many other people's, cup of tea. On top of that, it's a very expensive army to just shelve. It's frustrating as hell.

JB_Man wrote:Everything that was attractive about this army in the past has been removed.

Such as? It all seems to be there to me.

chaos0xomega wrote:Except for the fact that Sisters have a 3+ save and Guard/Orks do not... Sisters are inherently more survivable than Guard are by the very fact that they will save against 2/3rds of all shots directed against them vs. guard at 1/3 and orks at 1/6.

Of course, in reality they all have 4+ cover saves, so it's practically a wash.

Ixquic wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

scuddman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Except for the fact that Sisters have a 3+ save and Guard/Orks do not... Sisters are inherently more survivable than Guard are by the very fact that they will save against 2/3rds of all shots directed against them vs. guard at 1/3 and orks at 1/6.

This analysis is wrong too. Guard win by being cheap. It's essentially not worth the effort to pop a chimera and kill the insides...that's what makes that army effective. What makes that even nastier is you have to get through a hail of firepower to get at the guard. However, for sisters of battle to work, they have to get within 12" or less (for flamers). That means when you shoot, if they aren't dead, you get assaulted. Your 3+ save doesn't matter when you get sweeping advanced...as the sisters can't even hold a candle in hth to tactical marines.

It's the necron problem...they can't stop assaults...

Think about it...how come nobody buys carapace vets? Because paying extra points for the +1 armor save is a waste of points.

You do realize that sisters have access to transport vehicles right? They are still way more survivable than guard, not only does your opponent have to pop the transport, but he then has to fight his way through a unit of minis that are twice as hard to kill as guard, I.E. it requires more effort than to kill a similarly sized guard squad, especially if the vehicles get the benefit of an invul save as well.

No you are wrong. No matter how many Guard you kill if the player wants that unit to stay there are ways to make that happen using either commands to rally or un-targetable commissars to make the unit stick. A 3+ save isn't going to make that unit stick around when you are taking a large amount of wounds and have no way to avoid taking a leadership test with a healthy negative modifier. Sisters are 1 attack at strength 3 WS 3. They are not doing any wounds themselves. When you factor in power weapons and rending (which are plentiful on dedicated CC units) their armor advantage is totally negated.

I also can't believe you are also factoring a 6++ save on vehicles like that matters at all.

Right, because you have access to the information presented in the other half of the white dwarf update, right? don't talk about stuff you clearly don't/can't know anything about until all the information has been presented to you. The fact remains, a squad of 10 sisters in a rhino is more survivable than a squad of 10 guardsmen in a chimera. In regards to commissars and officers, etc. you seem to have forgotten about the basic Sisters of Battle squads act of faith that allows them to autoregroup regardless of anything that would otherwise prevent them.

And yes, a 6++ save on a vehicle does matter. thats a 16.667% chance of negating anything that might otherwise destroy it. That alone is better than a lot of weapons statistical probabilities of destroying a vehicle without a 6++ save. Mathhammer is a poor analysis of in game effects, but considering the amount of times that I have made rolls that are 'statistically improbable' I would say a straight up 6== is awesome, if unreliable.

JB_Man wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Without points costs or other upgrade options, there's no valid way to declare what level of potency this army has.

It's pretty easy to declare whether or not it is "cool" anymore, even if by some miracle it's still remotely competitive. Everything that was attractive about this army in the past has been removed...it doesn't even look like fun to play. I shelved my guard army because that gak was so boring; spamming a gak storm of weak troops isn't my, or many other people's, cup of tea. On top of that, it's a very expensive army to just shelve. It's frustrating as hell.

This is my only issue with what I have seen thus far. It is a very vanilla list, lacking a lot of the cool special rules and such minor nuances that make other armies so attractive to play. Granted, I could be surprised and it turns out that every model in a celestians squad can be armed to the teeth with special weapons, etc. or the armory is filled with really cool junk, but thus far the units themselves don't really do much for me, and the acts of faith are tame compared to some of the nicer ones from the previous book (gone are the days of my tooled up flamer squads having ap1 weapons...)

DarknessEternal wrote:

JB_Man wrote:Everything that was attractive about this army in the past has been removed.

Such as? It all seems to be there to me.

The book fundamentally changes everything about the army. It went from balancing close range fire and assaults with a great deal of versatility in many of the units (Seraphim, Immolators (no flamer at 12 inches and no firing points, are you gaking me?), Celestians, Canoness, and the loss of the armory) to practically spamming guardsmen. The new faith system completely turns it on it's head. It used to be what you needed, when you needed it, and was a valuable part of the army. It gave any unit lethal firepower or colossal staying power, depending on the circumstances. Making good use of Faith was part of playing the army well. Now it's some silly gak that isn't even a shade of it's former self. I'm not saying the army won't work...that really is impossible to determine until we see the second half. But I don't like it in the least anymore. I'd rather hold onto my current book with the hopes they'll release something that isn't a rushed piece of garbage down the road. I don't mind waiting even longer if this is what they intend to give me.

JB_Man wrote: It went from balancing close range fire and assaults with a great deal of versatility in many of the units

Nothing changed there.

JB_Man wrote: Celestians, Canoness,

Or there.

JB_Man wrote:and the loss of the armory

Absolutely zero armies have an armory anymore.

JB_Man wrote:The new faith system

Faith, as a rule, still exists, and still does a variety of things.

You said removed. The only thing you mentioned that was removed was the omni-armory which no army has.

DarknessEternal: Either you aren't reading the bew rules very carefully... or you just don't know the old rules very well.

Or both.

DarknessEternal wrote:

JB_Man wrote: Celestians

Or there.

Holy Hatred was removed. Initiative 4 was removed to make way for Initiative 3. Seraphim similarly had their initiative 4 removed as well as losing their special Hit and Run rule exempting them from the initiatve test, forcing them to make initiative tests at their now-inferior initiative.

DarknessEternal wrote:

JB_Man wrote:and the loss of the armory

Absolutely zero armies have an armory anymore.

Which means it was removed, yes? Yes.

DarknessEternal wrote:

JB_Man wrote:The new faith system

Faith, as a rule, still exists, and still does a variety of things.

The old version was removed, to make way for a vastly inferior and more complex system which is less adaptable and less reliable, and which scales less with army size.

carmachu wrote:

GBL wrote:
Funny how you pick Orks and Nids as examples. Both good armies with real tactics that had fans screeching like this when they were released.

Its again obvious that you play neither nids nor orks. There are many many nid players that want to crotch punch the author of the hive guard and tyrgon codex. Many more that think they ruined them. Orks faired better, but thats not saying much compared to nids.

I never said the fans liked the book. My point was that they can work well and that they have real tactics.

Especially in the case of the nids, sure it invalidated a whole bunch of models, forcing you to buy the latest and greatest. But if you build your army right, it can still be competitive.

DarknessEternal wrote:

JB_Man wrote: It went from balancing close range fire and assaults with a great deal of versatility in many of the units

Nothing changed there.

JB_Man wrote: Celestians, Canoness,

Or there.

JB_Man wrote:and the loss of the armory

Absolutely zero armies have an armory anymore.

JB_Man wrote:The new faith system

Faith, as a rule, still exists, and still does a variety of things.

You said removed. The only thing you mentioned that was removed was the omni-armory which no army has.

Don't play semantics. Those were the things that made the army attractive. They are no longer there in their original form. They are now only present in a form which is not even remotely representative of how good they, or the army, used to be. This isn't rocket science.

GBL wrote:

I never said the fans liked the book. My point was that they can work well and that they have real tactics.

Especially in the case of the nids, sure it invalidated a whole bunch of models, forcing you to buy the latest and greatest. But if you build your army right, it can still be competitive.

Work well and competative are a little strong there. Especially in light of go buy hive guard and trygons. You dont see nids anywhere near the top most of the time. If maybe you build sorta right, you might possible be competative. But every nid player I've seen pretty much shelved their army. So no, I think that your just flat out wrong.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Right, because you have access to the information presented in the other half of the white dwarf update, right? don't talk about stuff you clearly don't/can't know anything about until all the information has been presented to you. The fact remains, a squad of 10 sisters in a rhino is more survivable than a squad of 10 guardsmen in a chimera. In regards to commissars and officers, etc. you seem to have forgotten about the basic Sisters of Battle squads act of faith that allows them to autoregroup regardless of anything that would otherwise prevent them.

And yes, a 6++ save on a vehicle does matter. thats a 16.667% chance of negating anything that might otherwise destroy it. That alone is better than a lot of weapons statistical probabilities of destroying a vehicle without a 6++ save. Mathhammer is a poor analysis of in game effects, but considering the amount of times that I have made rolls that are 'statistically improbable' I would say a straight up 6== is awesome, if unreliable.

I'm going off their other WD lists which had bare bones war gear lists. Some kind of list saving super gear is highly unlikely.

A unit of Sisters being more slightly "survivable" than guardsmen in a Chimera is meaningless. The role of those guardsmen is to bust armor with meltas (something those troops can do better than Sister troops unless there is a radical change in how their list is set up where Battle Sisters can take three melta guns) without leaving their tank then die. Sisters have no pie plates, no lascannons, no huge unbreakable mobs, not even a vehicle with more than 2 fire points. If those guys die after exploding a few critical tanks and maybe delaying something for a turn they have done their job. Battle Sisters don't have that role so it doesn't matter if half as many die to AP4 weapons, especially when in 5th edition 40k everything and its mother has a 4+ cover anyway. In addition being able to rally on a 3+ roll is ok (and only battle sisters can do that unlike practically the entire Guard Army) but still does not stop them from being swept after broken with no real solution to their lack of stubborn and can't be counted on due to faith points being a righly random D6 a turn meaning you might need that 1 point you generated for a critical offensive ability. It's possible that the Book of St Lucius is there in some form but that's about as likely as the faith point bonus gear, neither of which we have any indication of if they exist or not and are pure fan hope. Any negativity from me is grounded in as much reality as your positive attitude except for the part where they nerfed several units unnecessarily and didn't even care enough to make sure that certain models had the same stats as they do in a book that came out a few months ago so pessimism is the more likely outlook.

A 6++ is meaningless if you can't count on it somewhat reliably. Mathhammer is a fine analysis of what is an intelligent decision to make on the tabletop. For instance a lascannon fired from a Space Marine has a 22.222% chance of penetrating a armor 13 vehicle. If that vehicle is now a Exorcist with its shield that drops to 18.51%. No one in his right mind would waste points on that sort of percentage change unless it was incredibly cheap and didn't stop make him or her drop anything from the list that was planned. Smoke launchers are used because they give you a 50% reduction until the tank has gotten to where it needs to be so next turn it can do its job. A 1/6 chance throughout the game is useless once the tank is dead. I've been generous and assumed that that invul has been a gift but if that is actually factored into the points cost of the model it's not worth it. Just how many biotic upgrades (for the amazing 6+ WBB) do you see in lists? Why do you see Wolfguard with rocket launchers? Because mathhammer says that's the best build to take. Mathhammer is a much better indication of how something will work on the table than "I've been saved a bunch of times by pie in the sky luck rolls (and I conveniently ignore the majority of the times they didn't help out when I was really hoping they would)."

Has anyone received their WD yet and can tell us what it says on the last page, the preview page for next month. I'd really like to know what the picture is and what the text blurbs say.

Don't reply unless you will actually state what's on the page, so many people have said they have the WD yet haven't provided this info when I've requested it through PM.

Without knowing the costs, I have to say I like the new statline better. Yes, they lost some stats. But, it feels more appropriate. Sisters aren't Marines. They're not super-human. They shouldn't be running around at I4, because they don't have super jacked-up reflexes. And humans in power armour with good training should lose to super-humans in power armour with exceptional training. Tactical marines should beat sisters in assault. Of course, that's not where sisters should be.

Sisters players, myself included, are simply going to have to learn how to play the army as something other than marines-lite. Mid-range shooty horde comes to mind.

As for faith, at 1850, I'd typically have 9 faith to start a game, and expect to gain another 5 or so with martyrdom, yielding a total of about 14. The new system averages 21 over a six turn game. I'm not convinced this cannot be used wisely, and if it's an add-on to a lower-priced basic sister, all the better.

Redbeard wrote:they don't have super jacked-up reflexes.

Yes they do, it's part of their training-- being able to accomplish things which appear miraculous, as if they were mere ordinary feats of battle.

They ARE that damned good. Taht's the point. Just because Marines are I4 doesn't mean noone else can be. Furthemore, for balance issues, what's the point of having two assault units that can't win assaults?

And don't tell me Celestians aren't an assault unit. Even nerfed as they are, they have higher WS, an extra attack, and an assault-based act of faith. In shooting, there's no difference between a battle sister and a celestian..


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Redbeard wrote:Sisters players, myself included, are simply going to have to learn how to play the army as something other than marines-lite. Mid-range shooty horde comes to mind.

What are you talking about? The new list is Marines-lite even more than C:WH is.

I3 would be better if there was some sort of trade off, either really high strength, power weapons, rending or something. A dedicated assault unit with I3, S3 (4 if you get a power off which is unreliable) and T3 isn't going to make a dent in anything. Maybe they will have the option to trade their bolters for something in the actual list but I wouldn't bet on it. I will be glad to be wrong. I guess its possible you could use the strength bonus like 5 times but I would assume that's a mistake and will be faqed.

The difference between the old method and the new is that you used to be able to blow all your points in one turn if that was what you needed to win. Now you can spend 6 max and that's unlikely. The erratic nature of a single D6 roll means that you have no idea how many points you will get next turn and have to assume the worst. Even then you will never have better than a 66% of success on most units.

I'm not sure what mid range shooty horde is going to accomplish with this list except for one round of mediocre fire then getting ran off the board.

Melissia wrote:What are you talking about? The new list is Marines-lite even more than C:WH is.

Pretty much.

Redbeard wrote:Without knowing the costs, I have to say I like the new statline better. Yes, they lost some stats. But, it feels more appropriate. Sisters aren't Marines. They're not super-human.

That's why they have 3 toughness and 3 strength.

Redbeard wrote:They shouldn't be running around at I4, because they don't have super jacked-up reflexes. And humans in power armour with good training should lose to super-humans in power armour with exceptional training. Tactical marines should beat sisters in assault.

Says who? Elite models trained in close combat should be better in close combat. The 1 point of initiative represents this. It's not like they're rocking mega power weapons and 16 attacks each.

Redbeard wrote:Sisters players, myself included, are simply going to have to learn how to play the army as something other than marines-lite. Mid-range shooty horde comes to mind.

Many sisters players don't want that. Other armies can provide that, if the players are so inclined.

Redbeard wrote:As for faith, at 1850, I'd typically have 9 faith to start a game, and expect to gain another 5 or so with martyrdom, yielding a total of about 14. The new system averages 21 over a six turn game. I'm not convinced this cannot be used wisely, and if it's an add-on to a lower-priced basic sister, all the better.

Faith generation isn't as much of an issue as the overall system sucking in my opinion.

Everyone is always all doom and gloom right before a release, and immediately after. Things work out just fine.

Lest we forget the pre-GK internet doomsaying. That book is pretty damn competitive now.

And the BA pre-codex doom and gloom. That book is still top 3.

Don't worry yourselves! Sisters are part of the IMPERIUM! You'll be fine!! POWER ARMOR!!!

Now if it was a Xenos book...

Cottonjaw wrote:Lest we forget the pre-GK internet doomsaying.

Most of them were saying GK were going to be OVER powered, not underpowered.

This isn't a pre-codex comlaint.

We're looking at it. IT BLOWS.

Even if the Sisters are priced competitively (they won't be), it'll STILL blow.

Exactly there's no way a WD codex will have an extensive list saving wargear section. Even if the models have been slashed in price a horde of mediocre stuff doesn't win much better than a elite army of mediocre stuff. There's no focus to this mess and its obvious by the Penitent Engine and Repentia that no thought went in other than "Remove allies, Remove Inquisition, Simplify Faith so you make consistent rolls, copy paste the rest."

Seems appropriate at this point -

Redbeard wrote:They shouldn't be running around at I4, because they don't have super jacked-up reflexes.

So why does the Preacher have I4? Why does the Inquisitor have I4. Why does a Death Cult Assassin who is human have I6? There all human and they all have I4 (except the death cult who is even faster then a space marine captain).

Melissia wrote:
They ARE that damned good. Taht's the point.

No, they're not that damned good. You're deluding yourself, and with the possible exception of Ephereal Stern, possessed by a daemon, there's never been a sister in the fluff that could go toe to toe with a marine. Not even a canoness.

Furthemore, for balance issues, what's the point of having two assault units that can't win assaults?

Seraphim were never really an assault unit. Celestians in the old book were certainly not. And it's not that they cannot win assaults, it's that they can't win every assault. Humans, in general, should not be winning assaults against marines unless their equipment gives them that edge. Celestians, on the other hand, would do just fine assaulting guard, tau, most eldar and many dark eldar.


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Redbeard wrote:Sisters players, myself included, are simply going to have to learn how to play the army as something other than marines-lite. Mid-range shooty horde comes to mind.

What are you talking about? The new list is Marines-lite even more than C:WH is.

Redbeard wrote:No, they're not that damned good. You're deluding yourself, and with the possible exception of Ephereal Stern, possessed by a daemon, there's never been a sister in the fluff that could go toe to toe with a marine. Not even a canoness.

I recall a story where a sister of battle defeated an ultramarine who got tainted by nurgle. Also fluff should not totally determine the rules or else Space marines would be T5 S5 W2 and space marines bolters would be S5 re-rolling failed to wound.

Once you start talking "No human should be beating a marine because of the story" you fall down the hole of movie marines. Marines are 10 feet tall and flip cars; on the table top they are less impressive due to game balance. Also please explain why a Preacher can be as good as a marine but not a Sister trained for assault. The same sort of argument has been made for getting rid of Sister power armor since it makes Marines less ~*~*SPECIAL*~*<3

In terms of old Celestians their distinguishing difference between them and battle sisters was WS4, the ability to hit on 3+ in close combat and I4. That's all assault related. They certainly weren't crushing marines or most other dedicated close combat units but they had a chance when combined with the faith powers.

Ixquic wrote:Once you start talking "No human should be beating a marine because of the story" you fall down the hole of movie marines. Marines are 10 feet tall and flip cars; on the table top they are less impressive due to game balance. Also please explain why a Preacher can be as good as a marine but not a Sister trained for assault. The same sort of argument has been made for getting rid of Sister power armor since it makes Marines less ~*~*SPECIAL*~*<3

In terms of old Celestians their distinguishing difference between them and battle sisters was WS4, the ability to hit on 3+ in close combat and I4. That's all assault related. They certainly weren't crushing marines or most other dedicated close combat units but they had a chance when combined with the faith powers.

The consensus is that Sisters of Battle lie somewhere between Guard and Marines. GW has obiously taken the view that they should be one step closer to regular Guard.

And remember Guard dont represent untrained Idiots, those are represented by Conscripts. Regular Guard are the cream of the crop and Veteran Guard more so. And this new SoB codex still shows Sisters as better Trained and Equipped than Guard.

BS4 and 3+ Armour Save on your basic troops is nothing to sneeze at.

I don't think it is 'cheap' to say they shouldn't be as powerful as marines... it is the fluff, it is the image.

BUT

At this point, GW just wants to sell models at all costs, so it is no surprise that things will generally be weakened or nerfed, so that the points cost goes down and we all have to buy twice the models to be effective. Most stat-lines seem to be going down or homogenizing, a marine itself is also not as powerful as it is supposed to be, with everyone's stats being somewhat centrist, am I off? It seems to me GW wants everyone buying a similar amount of models, or $ value. I am no expert, but listening to you guys the past few years, it seems like just about everyone has come down in power, or, has a glaring weakness if they are more powerful that average in some way. I.e, DE glass cannon.

GK seem to be an exception to the trend, but, at the same time, their low model count armies still look pretty big to me lol.

GBL wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Once you start talking "No human should be beating a marine because of the story" you fall down the hole of movie marines. Marines are 10 feet tall and flip cars; on the table top they are less impressive due to game balance. Also please explain why a Preacher can be as good as a marine but not a Sister trained for assault. The same sort of argument has been made for getting rid of Sister power armor since it makes Marines less ~*~*SPECIAL*~*<3

In terms of old Celestians their distinguishing difference between them and battle sisters was WS4, the ability to hit on 3+ in close combat and I4. That's all assault related. They certainly weren't crushing marines or most other dedicated close combat units but they had a chance when combined with the faith powers.

The consensus is that Sisters of Battle lie somewhere between Guard and Marines. GW has obiously taken the view that they should be one step closer to regular Guard.

And remember Guard dont represent untrained Idiots, those are represented by Conscripts. Regular Guard are the cream of the crop and Veteran Guard more so. And this new SoB codex still shows Sisters as better Trained and Equipped than Guard.

BS4 and 3+ Armour Save on your basic troops is nothing to sneeze at.

Were not talking about a sister of battle, were talking about a celestien, the elite close combat version. Sisters are trained a lot like storm troopers, hence why they have similar stats. Celestians are the close combat elite version. What I don't get is why an Inquisitor or Preacher is faster then a Celestian (these guys don't spend all there time training).

Maybe, just maybe, like the "Heavy Bolter" Multimelta Retributor and the S4 Arco-flagellant, the Celestian/Seraphim I3 instead of I4 is merely a typo.

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Once you start talking "No human should be beating a marine because of the story" you fall down the hole of movie marines. Marines are 10 feet tall and flip cars; on the table top they are less impressive due to game balance. Also please explain why a Preacher can be as good as a marine but not a Sister trained for assault. The same sort of argument has been made for getting rid of Sister power armor since it makes Marines less ~*~*SPECIAL*~*<3

In terms of old Celestians their distinguishing difference between them and battle sisters was WS4, the ability to hit on 3+ in close combat and I4. That's all assault related. They certainly weren't crushing marines or most other dedicated close combat units but they had a chance when combined with the faith powers.

The consensus is that Sisters of Battle lie somewhere between Guard and Marines. GW has obiously taken the view that they should be one step closer to regular Guard.

And remember Guard dont represent untrained Idiots, those are represented by Conscripts. Regular Guard are the cream of the crop and Veteran Guard more so. And this new SoB codex still shows Sisters as better Trained and Equipped than Guard.

BS4 and 3+ Armour Save on your basic troops is nothing to sneeze at.

Were not talking about a sister of battle, were talking about a celestien, the elite close combat version. Sisters are trained a lot like storm troopers, hence why they have similar stats. Celestians are the close combat elite version. What I don't get is why an Inquisitor or Preacher is faster then a Celestian (these guys don't spend all there time training).

IMHO that decision has nothing to do with fluff and everything to do with lazy game design.

The new special characters and the priests are basically squad upgrade characters.

And if they were the same or weaker there would be less of a reason to use them at all.

As it is i am tipping that the one or two good builds that come out of this book will have a priest or something in every squad.

Seraphim have never been an assault WINNING unit, that is true. But they are an assault unit, and they spend the vast majority of their time moving in and out of assault. Seraphim are absolutely essential to many lists because of their ability to tie up assault units. I don't think it's reasonable to nerf the stat line because they're not dedicated assault models like terminators or something.

GBL wrote:
IMHO that decision has nothing to do with fluff and everything to do with lazy game design.

The new special characters and the priests are basically squad upgrade characters.

And if they were the same or weaker there would be less of a reason to use them at all.

As it is i am tipping that the one or two good builds that come out of this book will have a priest or something in every squad.

Well then I think the reason Celestians and Seraphims became I3 due to lazy game design (long with the rest of the codex), see how easy it is to make that argument.
I'm also not talking about special characters, I'm just talking about the regular preachers.
And then your argument for if they were the same or weaker can be applied to Celestians and Seraphims to.
A good build isn't going to involve a preacher, no its going to be nothing but Dominion melta spam.

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:
IMHO that decision has nothing to do with fluff and everything to do with lazy game design.

The new special characters and the priests are basically squad upgrade characters.

And if they were the same or weaker there would be less of a reason to use them at all.

As it is i am tipping that the one or two good builds that come out of this book will have a priest or something in every squad.

Well then I think the reason Celestians and Seraphims became I3 due to lazy game design (long with the rest of the codex), see how easy it is to make that argument.
I'm also not talking about special characters, I'm just talking about the regular preachers.
And then your argument for if they were the same or weaker can be applied to Celestians and Seraphims to.
A good build isn't going to involve a preacher, no its going to be nothing but Dominion melta spam.

I intended lazy to imply "Rehashed from other codexes" Which i dont think quite covers the I4/3 Debacle. I still believe it (I3) was a very concious decision. Whether good or bad i leave up to people to decide for themselves. I personally think it is fluffy.


Regular preachers will probably get the ability to wield an eviscerator, that combined with giving their unit rerolls to hit and having a rosarius would make them a common sight with this codex IMHO and that their init may prove worthless anyway.

GBL wrote:I intended lazy to imply "Rehashed from other codexes" Which i dont think quite covers the I4/3 Debacle. I still believe it (I3) was a very concious decision. Whether good or bad i leave up to people to decide for themselves. I personally think it is fluffy.


Regular preachers will probably get the ability to wield an eviscerator, that combined with giving their unit rerolls to hit and having a rosarius would make them a common sight with this codex IMHO and that their init may prove worthless anyway.

Your argument is nothing but an assumption. Also preachers haven't been around since 2nd edition, so it doesn't make sense they are rehashed from other codexes. Now if you want to say what about priests, well take a look at the guard Codex who are I3. He is an independent character which means he can be pick out in assault and easily die since he is T3 and only has 1 wound and gives up a kill point. If you want an Eviscerator give it your superior. If sister superiors don't have access to it, then its another nerf. With my current stats why do I even want to be in combat?

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:I intended lazy to imply "Rehashed from other codexes" Which i dont think quite covers the I4/3 Debacle. I still believe it (I3) was a very concious decision. Whether good or bad i leave up to people to decide for themselves. I personally think it is fluffy.


Regular preachers will probably get the ability to wield an eviscerator, that combined with giving their unit rerolls to hit and having a rosarius would make them a common sight with this codex IMHO and that their init may prove worthless anyway.

Your argument is nothing but an assumption. Also preachers haven't been around since 2nd edition, so it doesn't make sense they are rehashed from other codexes. Now if you want to say what about priests, well take a look at the guard Codex who are I3. He is an independent character which means he can be pick out in assault and easily die since he is T3 and only has 1 wound and gives up a kill point. If you want an Eviscerator give it your superior. If sister superiors don't have access to it, then its another nerf. With my current stats why do I even want to be in combat?

I am not implying preachers are somehow stolen from older codices, i am saying that the idea of cheap effective squad upgrade characters are, from as recently as the blood angels codex with the sang priests.

GBL wrote:I am not implying preachers are somehow stolen from older codices, i am saying that the idea of cheap effective squad upgrade characters are, from as recently as the blood angels codex with the sang priests.

That doesn't explain the I4 or the fact they will suck due to the reason I posted above.

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:I am not implying preachers are somehow stolen from older codices, i am saying that the idea of cheap effective squad upgrade characters are, from as recently as the blood angels codex with the sang priests.

That doesn't explain the I4

Me too.

As i said.

GBL wrote:
Which i dont think quite covers the I4/3 Debacle

Necrosis wrote:
or the fact they will suck due to the reason I posted above.

Your Opinion =/= Fact.

Even if they did OBJECTIVELY SUCKZORZ!!!!! we would need to see the points before that was determined.

They are going to be 45 points (if not more)without the Eviscerator. How do I know this? Well they are effectively in the guard codex (expect they have a higher I and have the act of faith special rule). The Eviscerator will cost 15 points. So your priest will cost 60 points. Now you can go around saying they won't suck. Yet they will cause they have one wound, are an independent character, T3. Why do you suppose guard players never use them? You think its going to be different with the sisters?

Necrosis wrote:They are going to be 45 points (if not more)without the Eviscerator.

I will quote you on that

Necrosis wrote:
How do I know this?

You dont.

Necrosis wrote:
Well they are effectively in the guard codex (expect they have a higher I and have the act of faith special rule). The Eviscerator will cost 15 points. So your priest will cost 60 points. Now you can go around saying they won't suck. Yet they will cause they have one wound, are an independent character, T3. Why do you suppose guard players never use them? You think its going to be different with the sisters?

If the statline has changed i would think it more likely that Guard are going to get yet another upgrade in their next codex rather than a guarantee of the points cost in this new codex.

For all we know this codex could set the trend for later codices. At this point nothing is certain. You yourself attacked me for having an argument based on nothing but assumption. Maybe you should settle down until the points costs are released.

I have not attacked you. I have attacked your arguments (big difference between the two). You know what fine, lets wait for the point cost to come and I bet you when it comes out, people will be complaining once again.

GBL wrote:
The consensus is that Sisters of Battle lie somewhere between Guard and Marines. GW has obiously taken the view that they should be one step closer to regular Guard.

And remember Guard dont represent untrained Idiots, those are represented by Conscripts. Regular Guard are the cream of the crop and Veteran Guard more so. And this new SoB codex still shows Sisters as better Trained and Equipped than Guard.

Just as an aside Preachers actually were in 2nd edition. Their statline was 44331419 (they had a movement stat as well but that's obsolete). Confessors were 5544252 10 so one less attack and wound than now but with better stats in almost every other field.

BTW to the people saying how impossible it is that Space Marines and Sisters should have similar stats...

In 2nd basic Sisters not only had I4 but also T4. The only difference in stats was WS and S. I'm not advocating that they get that sort of deal now, but the idea that no one can have the same stats as the precious Marines ever is incorrect.

Redbeard wrote:
Sisters players, myself included, are simply going to have to learn how to play the army as something other than marines-lite. Mid-range shooty horde comes to mind.

I simply can't see this working. First, what mid range shooting? Unless things have changed, Battle Sisters don't even GET heavy weapons aside from the heavy flamer. So we're left with templates, meltaguns, and (ha) storm bolters. You can't be a mid-range shooty horde without mid-range shooting. I find it hard to believe bolters will manage it when existing mid-range shooty armies tend to have 18-24" assault weapons as their basic guns.

I have trouble imagining the changes needed for Sisters to fight outside of flamer range effectively. Maybe if we weren't required to take Exorcists as our only long range means of stopping AV11-13 vehicles, but that will require Rets to have access to weapons that have never been in the Sisters books.

Necrosis wrote: You know what fine, lets wait for the point cost to come and I bet you when it comes out, people will be complaining once again.

Well now THAT is a fact.




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carmachu wrote:

GBL wrote:
The consensus is that Sisters of Battle lie somewhere between Guard and Marines. GW has obiously taken the view that they should be one step closer to regular Guard.

And remember Guard dont represent untrained Idiots, those are represented by Conscripts. Regular Guard are the cream of the crop and Veteran Guard more so. And this new SoB codex still shows Sisters as better Trained and Equipped than Guard.

No, guardsmen are NOT cream of the crop. That would be stormtroopers.

GW has contridicted themseleves then, taking a step closer to guard. Considering sisters are trained in the same places as stormtroopers and commisars(by their own admission in various fluff), it seems odd they're stepping backwards/

Guardsmen are Above Average Humans
Veterans are Above Average Guard
Storm Troopers are Above Average Veterans.

Sisters of Battle in their old codex are costed the same as a Current Storm Trooper for better armour. And thats before any faith.

GBL wrote:

Guardsmen are Above Average Humans
Veterans are Above Average Guard
Storm Troopers are Above Average Veterans.

Sisters of Battle in their old codex are costed the same as a Current Storm Trooper for better armour. And thats before any faith.

Oh I know all about it. But your comparing apples and oranges in terms of codexis- stormtroopers are elite slot in a book with many more long range options, plus other options with themselves such as DS, inflitrate, AP3 lasguns, plasmaguns, as well as melta and flamer. Where as sisters are that price, as standard troopers. You cant compare the two on costs. Genestealers cost more then both.....does that make them better?

But what I was talking about is that in GW's own fluff, novels and otherwise, sisters of battle, storrm troopers, and commisars are all trained at the same school, which shows their elite status, unlike guardsmen and elite guardsmen.

carmachu wrote:

GBL wrote:

Guardsmen are Above Average Humans
Veterans are Above Average Guard
Storm Troopers are Above Average Veterans.

Sisters of Battle in their old codex are costed the same as a Current Storm Trooper for better armour. And thats before any faith.

Oh I know all about it. But your comparing apples and oranges in terms of codexis- stormtroopers are elite slot in a book with many more long range options, plus other options with themselves such as DS, inflitrate, AP3 lasguns, plasmaguns, as well as melta and flamer. Where as sisters are that price, as standard troopers. You cant compare the two on costs. Genestealers cost more then both.....does that make them better?

But what I was talking about is that in GW's own fluff, novels and otherwise, sisters of battle, storrm troopers, and commisars are all trained at the same school, which shows their elite status, unlike guardsmen and elite guardsmen.

Well they trained at the same school. Sisters have better armour and had better initiative for the same cost. Bringing them in line with stormtrooper from your own examples is very fluffy indeed. And then they get faith on top of that.

I don't get the complaining about Initiative, even on Seraphims. They stopped being good the moment Divine Guidance and the Invulnerable Save got taken away as options. Surely, of all the things to complain about losing, those are much more important than going from I4 to I3 on units that were almost always better off in the shooting phase than the Assault Phase, and even in Assault, they were better for tying things up than actually killing stuff (other than the Evicserator).

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I don't get the complaining about Initiative, even on Seraphims. They stopped being good the moment Divine Guidance and the Invulnerable Save got taken away as options. Surely, of all the things to complain about losing, those are much more important than going from I4 to I3 on units that were almost always better off in the shooting phase than the Assault Phase, and even in Assault, they were better for tying things up than actually killing stuff (other than the Evicserator).

Good point. The models in the army were really only ever as good as the faith mechanic.

GBL wrote:
Well they trained at the same school. Sisters have better armour and had better initiative for the same cost. Bringing them in line with stormtrooper from your own examples is very fluffy indeed. And then they get faith on top of that.

First of all it's not sisters of battle, its Celestians and Seraphims which are the elite of the sisters. And fluff be damned, I want a codex that is fun and competitive to play then a fluff one that is boring and sucks. Who cares if an army is fluff when it sucks. If we want to talk about Fluff why aren't space marines WS 5 BS 5 S5 T5 I6 W2 A2? Also have you seen faith now? It sucks, its utterly terrible, I rather have guard orders, which storm troopers have.

Yeah when people add in the current faith powers as some kind of benefit over Guard they are forgetting the orders which are for the most part better and more versatile in their use and less reliant on luck.

Wow...this does not sound encouraging...

How do Seraphim work now? Are they any good? With the regular Hit and Run and the I3, it looks like they will not be as clutch as they use to be. Do they at least have an awesome new faith power?

They got a shooting buff. Instead of twin linked, they now have two pistol shots. It doesn't say how hand flamers work with that but I would assume it's not going to let you shoot two templates so more than likely that will remain unchanged. It mentions that if you shoot both pistols you can't fire another weapon so they may be able to take special weapons of some kind but that's just a guess. Their faith ability is that shooting wounds can be rerolled which isn't bad. They also can reroll their own faith power roll and 6++ invul roll but lost the ability to buff other units with an aura.

They aren't terrible and honestly would be pretty fine with a points deduction and keeping the I4 to make their hit and run semi reliable.

Necrosis wrote:They are going to be 45 points (if not more)without the Eviscerator. How do I know this? Well they are effectively in the guard codex (expect they have a higher I and have the act of faith special rule). The Eviscerator will cost 15 points. So your priest will cost 60 points. Now you can go around saying they won't suck. Yet they will cause they have one wound, are an independent character, T3. Why do you suppose guard players never use them? You think its going to be different with the sisters?

Speak for yourself. Priests w/ evicorators are useful squad additions, especially to squads that will be assaulting things. Priests are not as bad as you say.

Ixquic wrote:Yeah when people add in the current faith powers as some kind of benefit over Guard they are forgetting the orders which are for the most part better and more versatile in their use and less reliant on luck.

Yes but i cannot remember the last time a stormtrooper relied on an order.

And Regular guard (the most common beneficiary of orders) dont have decent armour or weaponry.

Happygrunt wrote:Speak for yourself. Priests w/ evicorators are useful squad additions, especially to squads that will be assaulting things. Priests are not as bad as you say.

Show me a competitive list that uses priests. I have not once seen a competitive list that uses priests.

GBL wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Yeah when people add in the current faith powers as some kind of benefit over Guard they are forgetting the orders which are for the most part better and more versatile in their use and less reliant on luck.

Yes but i cannot remember the last time a stormtrooper relied on an order.

And Regular guard (the most common beneficiary of orders) dont have decent armour or weaponry.

Regular Guard just use cover and cost way less points. All in all guard orders are better then these new acts of faith. Also not many people use storm troopers.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I don't get the complaining about Initiative, even on Seraphims.

Because they were the only things resembling decent assault units that we had. Especially Celestians.


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GBL wrote:Yes but i cannot remember the last time a stormtrooper relied on an order.

I can't remember the last time someone used Stormtroopers.

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:
Well they trained at the same school. Sisters have better armour and had better initiative for the same cost. Bringing them in line with stormtrooper from your own examples is very fluffy indeed. And then they get faith on top of that.

First of all it's not sisters of battle, its Celestians and Seraphims which are the elite of the sisters. And fluff be damned, I want a codex that is fun and competitive to play then a fluff one that is boring and sucks. Who cares if an army is fluff when it sucks. If we want to talk about Fluff why aren't space marines WS 5 BS 5 S5 T5 I6 W2 A2? Also have you seen faith now? It sucks, its utterly terrible, I rather have guard orders, which storm troopers have.

As i said in the post that dragged me into this argument, i like the new faith system. Sure its not OMGWTFBBQ powerful and doesnt give you squads of 3++ armour saves, but its simple and effective IMHO.

Redbeard wrote:Celestians in the old book were certainly not.

+1 WS, +1Initiative, always hits on 3+? Yes they were.

Orders Shmorders.

Sisters used to be good because you had Rending Bolters & Flamers when you wanted to, got really hard to kill once your squad sizes got small, could get S6 Chainfists, and had D6 Shot Exorcists. In a pinch, you could get Rending on your normal CC attacks.

They were probably the best Close Range Shooting Specialist army that existed in 4th, and I don't think they lost too much in 5th, and they did it better than marines for cheaper. All they lacked was long ranged support, which was why most Sisters armies revolved around the 3 Exorcists.

Now they've been knocked down to the level that most everyone else has. Special Weapon delivery systems, no really CC punch to speak of, still no real long ranged shooting (we still have yet to see what the Exorcist will be able to do).

In short, I think the army will be pretty boring/mundane, albeit entirely less annoying to play against (The Book + 2+ Inv Save Cannoness was annoying).

GBL wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:
Well they trained at the same school. Sisters have better armour and had better initiative for the same cost. Bringing them in line with stormtrooper from your own examples is very fluffy indeed. And then they get faith on top of that.

First of all it's not sisters of battle, its Celestians and Seraphims which are the elite of the sisters. And fluff be damned, I want a codex that is fun and competitive to play then a fluff one that is boring and sucks. Who cares if an army is fluff when it sucks. If we want to talk about Fluff why aren't space marines WS 5 BS 5 S5 T5 I6 W2 A2? Also have you seen faith now? It sucks, its utterly terrible, I rather have guard orders, which storm troopers have.

As i said in the post that dragged me into this argument, i like the new faith system. Sure its not OMGWTFBBQ powerful and doesnt give you squads of 3++ armour saves, but its simple and effective IMHO.

It is no way effective. Have you even read the rules for it? It doesn't scale, you get a random amount, and then to add more randomness you need to get a 5+ (usually a 4+ after bonuses). It is less reliable then guard orders and it is far weaker. The new act of faith system is the worse special rules ever. Seriously how the hell is it effective. Please explain to me how it is effective. Really I would like to know, in fact every sister of battle player out there would like to know. So please tell us.

I cna't remember the last time I saw a storm trooper being used. (edit: haha Melissia beat me to that one...)

I'm not sure how crappy guard troop gear has to do with their orders being better than faith and integrated into their points cost. Celestians have a combat faith power and that have no business being in combat now.

GBL wrote:As i said in the post that dragged me into this argument, i like the new faith system. Sure its not OMGWTFBBQ powerful and doesnt give you squads of 3++ armour saves, but its simple and effective IMHO.

It's neither simple nor effective.

The previous one was simple and effective-- this one? It's just random and the powers aren't very good.

Melissia wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Celestians in the old book were certainly not.

+1 WS, +1Initiative, always hits on 3+? Yes they were.

They were supposed to be, they still sucked in CC and were better off shooting things. Hell the only time I ever saw them taken was in bigger games because the Sisters player ran out of other Force Org Slots to and needed to take more sisters in Rhinos with Meltas/Flamers to make points.

Yes, they "lost something". But what they lost was really just inconsequential compared to losing the stuff that made the army actually function competitively.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Now they've been knocked down to the level that most everyone else has.

You mean everyone taht isn't using a fifth edition codex. So basically they're at the same level, because fifth edition codices hardly needed any help defeating the relatively weak C:WH army list anyway.


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Voodoo Boyz wrote:Yes, they "lost something". But what they lost was really just inconsequential

It was very consequential. It turned an assault unit that needed some tweaking into an assault unit that's useless.

It's like if you took assault marines and knocked them down to initiative 3-- would you want them to try assaulting a guard blob at I3 where the blob can strike back before any assault casualties?

GBL wrote:Yes but i cannot remember the last time a stormtrooper relied on an order.

I can't remember the last time someone used Stormtroopers.

True,

but they would see more use with a 3+ armour save. They are good in their own right, but they suffer because veterans outclass them in the ways a guard player(generally, i own ~40 stormtroopers\kasrkin myself) wants to play.


But i believe you mentioned not wanting a melta/mech/spam/horde army. And for that you are looking for something closer to a stormtrooper, so they are IMHO the better comparison for this discussion.

Not at all. The thing about marines is that they're a flexible force. They're shooty against fighty armies, and fighty against shooty armies. They might tend slightly towards the shooty side, but when push comes to shove, marines get in their rhinos and charge gunlines.

Sisters aren't going to be that. They're going to come down a lot more heavily on the shooty side. They're going to live and die by their bolters and flamers, not by hanging out in assault with marines and winning. IMO, that's how it should be.

In case ya hadn't noticed, they always WERE on the shootty side. But now our immolators are razorbacks and our celestian retinue is a command squad. Our celestians are now sternguard even more than before.

As I said, marine-lite.

Melissia wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Now they've been knocked down to the level that most everyone else has.

You mean everyone taht isn't using a fifth edition codex. So basically they're at the same level, because fifth edition codices hardly needed any help defeating the relatively weak C:WH army list anyway.

Sorry, that typed out differently than what I meant to say.

I meant to say "the normal SoB squad got knocked down to the level of close ranged shooting that every other S4-Rapid Fire Trooper army has".

Sisters clearly got beaten down even lower in power level than their previous book. The only thing that's "good" about that is a lot of the old stuff was annoying as hell to play against (I played against them....a lot, to the point where I know how to play the old army as if I owned it, where as before I only borrowed a few times).

Still, it sucks ass for Sisters players. You all have my condolences. Play them as Girl Marines.

Eh, a combat Canoness with a Celestian Retinue including an Eviscerator and maybe a Priest when used with the old faith powers was terrifying in combat. 2/3++ invuls with S5 and S6 power weapons that couldn't be targeted and the possibility of strength 7 and 8 power weapons. The regulars soaked up the wounds and it would almost never break on an unmodified 10 leadership.

Melissia wrote:

Not at all. The thing about marines is that they're a flexible force. They're shooty against fighty armies, and fighty against shooty armies. They might tend slightly towards the shooty side, but when push comes to shove, marines get in their rhinos and charge gunlines.

Sisters aren't going to be that. They're going to come down a lot more heavily on the shooty side. They're going to live and die by their bolters and flamers, not by hanging out in assault with marines and winning. IMO, that's how it should be.

In case ya hadn't noticed, they always WERE on the assaulty side. But now our immolators are razorbacks and our celestian retinue is a command squad. Our celestians are now sternguard even more than before.

As I said, marine-lite.

Calling us marine-lite doesn't even begin to describe it.

GBL wrote:but they would see more use with a 3+ armour save. They are good in their own right, but they suffer because veterans outclass them

They suffer from being hideously overpriced with an oversecialized and not that useful main weapon.


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Apologies for the typos, and slips (for example, I meant to say they were always shooty). I'm kinda caching up on this discussion and typing rather fast.

Cottonjaw wrote:Everyone is always all doom and gloom right before a release, and immediately after. Things work out just fine.

Tell that to the nids collecting dust in my closet.

Melissia wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Now they've been knocked down to the level that most everyone else has.

You mean everyone taht isn't using a fifth edition codex. So basically they're at the same level, because fifth edition codices hardly needed any help defeating the relatively weak C:WH army list anyway.


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Voodoo Boyz wrote:Yes, they "lost something". But what they lost was really just inconsequential

It was very consequential. It turned an assault unit that needed some tweaking into an assault unit that's useless.

It's like if you took assault marines and knocked them down to initiative 3-- would you want them to try assaulting a guard blob at I3 where the blob can strike back before any assault casualties?

Tweaking? They sucked as an assault unit. Out right utterly sucked in assault. There isn't a whole hell of a lot you could do to "tweak" them other than give them power weapons. I mean WTF, you think they're bloody Grey Knights??

Oh sure, you could find a way to get them into CC, use faith to give them the extra strength....and they still weren't that great because the net effect wasn't as good or reliable as say another SoB squad shooting Divinely Guided Bolters/Flamers at Infantry or Meltas at tanks.

Sisters in CC were there for attrition.

Ixquic wrote:Eh, a combat Canoness with a Celestian Retinue including an Eviscerator and maybe a Priest when used with the old faith powers was terrifying in combat. 2/3++ invuls with S5 and S6 power weapons that couldn't be targeted and the possibility of strength 7 and 8 power weapons. The regulars soaked up the wounds and it would almost never break on an unmodified 10 leadership.

What your saying here is a lie. Why is it a lie, cause spirit of the maytry requires you roll under your squad while the plus 2 strength required you roll over your squad. So chances were you would never pull off both, on of that that squad ate lots of faith points. Also this squad could easily be beaten by Khrone Beserkers or a bunch of Ork charging them. I actually used this and it sometimes it work, other times it failed (depends if you get the charge and pass the acts of faith). What I found out though is for the same amount of points I could ally in a Squad of Grey Knight Terminators with a Grand Master who also gave me a psychic hood and they would perform in combat much better.

Ixquic wrote:Eh, a combat Canoness with a Celestian Retinue including an Eviscerator and maybe a Priest when used with the old faith powers was terrifying in combat. 2/3++ invuls with S5 and S6 power weapons that couldn't be targeted and the possibility of strength 7 and 8 power weapons. The regulars soaked up the wounds and it would almost never break on an unmodified 10 leadership.

What did that do that a 2+ Save Cannoness w/ or w/o Jump pack didn't do already? Regulars soaked up wounds, but you had to get pretty low on numbers to get the Inv Save Faith power off, where as the Cannoness almost always got it off. By the time you spent all the points/faith to get that squad pumped up, you could have just divinely guided more normal squads.

Plus...what's the point? They can't assault out of a rhino, so in an ideal situation where you were going to be getting at the target of choice, you were likely going to shoot first before you were going to charge in, and if you did it right, whatever you were shooting was likely dead anyway.

I'm telling you that Sister HQ squad could take on almost any dedicated CC unit in the game if faith points were funneled into it and usually win. I'm not saying it's the absolute best or even a winning strategy since it's really only one unit that can reasonably do it but to say they had no CC potential is flat out wrong.

It's useful because sometimes there's stuff that rending bolters/flamers can't deal with or you just want to screw around with a hilariously annoying unit that can give a solid CC punch. You can deliver it with a Landraider should you want to (you'd typically have the Inquistor with two mystics hanging around anyway) and even if you used a Rhino they could last a turn of shooting since there are ways to get free faith or more reliable faith power tests. I'm not saying it's game winning strat number 1, but it's an incredibly effective CC unit and now there is not even close to an equivalent.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Tweaking? They sucked as an assault unit. Out right utterly sucked in assault. There isn't a whole hell of a lot you could do to "tweak" them other than give them power weapons.

Actually, I know exactly what would make them an assault unit worth taking.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/384816.page
http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=10614

That Celestian Squad right there? Definitely worth taking. The main reason I suppose would probably be the customization options. Instead of buying a heavy and a special weapon, they could buy, for example, two power swords and an eviscerator. And then another eviscerator on the Superior. Or the made up weapon of the Power Spear, which was +1S and Always Strikes First, allowing it to absorb assaults better instead of initiating, for those that preferred the shooty route.

Voodoo Boyz wrote: Play them as Girl Marines.

I'm going to wait for the second half to come out, and then play them a touch to test drive them. But if they meet my dissmal expectations from what I'm seeing now, the Valkyrie female marine chapter is pretty much the next step. I even have some metal dread or two mocked up, and old metal terminator armor set aside. I even have a mock up or two of lascannon and plasmacannon somewhere on the off chance this day would come.

Sad really.

Ixquic wrote:I'm telling you that Sister HQ squad could take on almost any dedicated CC unit in the game if faith points were funneled into it and usually win. I'm not saying it's the absolute best or even a winning strategy since it's really only one unit that can reasonably do it but to say they had no CC potential is flat out wrong.

Yes the army did have Close Combat potential but it was not point effective, you were spending over 300 points for one squad.

I actually had a list a while back using the Space Wolves list to deliver a Sisters of Battle army.

Sisters were a short-range shooty army that was fun because it was such a niche. We stunk in assault and at 13+" we stunk at shooting. I am trying to figure out how we can make the shooting phase work anymore without Divine Guidance...

I am glad that Seraphim are not all doom and gloom, though. But Faith on 5+ is no longer reliable. Sister armies that were not Immolator spam relied on Faith to work. The loss of Faith is disturbing...

Man, this makes me miss the old Chapter Approved Sisters list...That got me into 40k...

Melissia wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Tweaking? They sucked as an assault unit. Out right utterly sucked in assault. There isn't a whole hell of a lot you could do to "tweak" them other than give them power weapons.

Actually, I know exactly what would make them an assault unit worth taking.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/384816.page
http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=10614

That Celestian Squad right there? Definitely worth taking. The main reason I suppose would probably be the customization options. Instead of buying a heavy and a special weapon, they could buy, for example, two power swords and an eviscerator. And then another eviscerator on the Superior. Or the made up weapon of the Power Spear, which was +1S and Always Strikes First, allowing it to absorb assaults better instead of initiating, for those that preferred the shooty route.

Eviscerators should be 15 points so they match all the other codexes (guard and grey knights).

Probably, yeah. Best you comment in that thread though.

Necrosis wrote:

Ixquic wrote:I'm telling you that Sister HQ squad could take on almost any dedicated CC unit in the game if faith points were funneled into it and usually win. I'm not saying it's the absolute best or even a winning strategy since it's really only one unit that can reasonably do it but to say they had no CC potential is flat out wrong.

Yes the army did have Close Combat potential but it was not point effective, you were spending over 300 points for one squad.

\

My point is more that Sisters have the ability to be ridiculous in CC, not that you're going to see it at a tourney (also it's more like 200 points before the trasport so not THAT much more than a regular decked out sister squad). Celestians need their role specialized into an actual CC unit with some functionality rather than a Battle Sister with an extra attack. and gets hit on a 4+.

When I was building my Witch Hunter force, I started building up a few guard units as allies. Some infantry, couple Sentinels, a Leman Russ...

Looks like it's time to flesh them out into a full force in their own right, even if that means buying a metric crapton of Escher models...

Melissia wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Tweaking? They sucked as an assault unit. Out right utterly sucked in assault. There isn't a whole hell of a lot you could do to "tweak" them other than give them power weapons.

Actually, I know exactly what would make them an assault unit worth taking.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/384816.page
http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=10614

That Celestian Squad right there? Definitely worth taking. The main reason I suppose would probably be the customization options. Instead of buying a heavy and a special weapon, they could buy, for example, two power swords and an eviscerator. And then another eviscerator on the Superior. Or the made up weapon of the Power Spear, which was +1S and Always Strikes First, allowing it to absorb assaults better instead of initiating, for those that preferred the shooty route.

Not really, at least not in an army that has access to Sisters w/ Divine Guidance. It also depends exactly on how many of those options were available to VSS's in normal Sister Squads.

Plus, OP much? How many points over a normal Sisters Squad? Faith tests on unmodified leadership, period? Right....

Sure, they can be awesome when you keep important Assault stats at low levels, but give them weapons to buff those stats, ignore armor, and make charging them a bad idea. Of course then you've made a Super Unit, and it only costs 85 Points base, and it shoots with Rending Bolters, with Re-Roll Wounds!

Wait a second....are you Matt Ward in disguise?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Not really, at least not in an army that has access to Sisters w/ Divine Guidance. It also depends exactly on how many of those options were available to VSS's in normal Sister Squads.

A VSS is merely one model; this squad, however, could equip four power weapons. Add them using The Passion, and they can do enough damage to most marine squads (except possibly assault marines, who have enough attacks at S4 to hurt Sisters back even after their casualties, enough that they might even win combat with some slightly above average rolls) that the marines do limited damage back to the Sisters. Even if you kit this squad out for shooting-- which the rules fully allowed-- it STILL is capable of withstanding an assault better, you must admit.

The re-rolled wounds are only when using the Bolter w/Sarissa, which means they aren't pwoer weapon attacks.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Plus, OP much? Faith tests on unmodified leadership, period? Right....

It also has Martyrdom removed, so Acts of Faith are easier to pull off, but also rarer-- IE rare but powerful. You're pretty much limited to one per squad plus what your HQ choices give you.



edit: Let's no turn this into a "talk about Melissia's codex" thread, my point was that, with tweaking, the Celestians CAN be made into a good assault unit insteado f a mediocre one.

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:
Well they trained at the same school. Sisters have better armour and had better initiative for the same cost. Bringing them in line with stormtrooper from your own examples is very fluffy indeed. And then they get faith on top of that.

First of all it's not sisters of battle, its Celestians and Seraphims which are the elite of the sisters. And fluff be damned, I want a codex that is fun and competitive to play then a fluff one that is boring and sucks. Who cares if an army is fluff when it sucks. If we want to talk about Fluff why aren't space marines WS 5 BS 5 S5 T5 I6 W2 A2? Also have you seen faith now? It sucks, its utterly terrible, I rather have guard orders, which storm troopers have.

As i said in the post that dragged me into this argument, i like the new faith system. Sure its not OMGWTFBBQ powerful and doesnt give you squads of 3++ armour saves, but its simple and effective IMHO.

It is no way effective. Have you even read the rules for it? It doesn't scale, you get a random amount, and then to add more randomness you need to get a 5+ (usually a 4+ after bonuses). It is less reliable then guard orders and it is far weaker. The new act of faith system is the worse special rules ever. Seriously how the hell is it effective. Please explain to me how it is effective. Really I would like to know, in fact every sister of battle player out there would like to know. So please tell us.

Lets face it, sisters were never going to keep 3++ saves for entire squads. They were never going to leave the old "roll under or over squad size" deal in place. Faith was always going to be weaker.

I have assumed for the longest time that the nerf bat would be along the lines of a combat tactics style passive army upgrade to represent faith, or one leadership roll based ability. For someone to have gone and crafted something that adds a small amount of pep to each unit in unique ways for each squad(in WD Dex at least) is above and beyond my expectations. That they do it without forcing people to keep track of a set of points for the entire game is an added bonus. however as some people have stated, i might have found a way to have it scaled with points, like D6 per turn for your first Canoness and then an additional D6 for each 4 SOB/Celest/Domini/Retrib squads. Its still going to average out to be more than you would normally get until higher points brackets.

But despite losing 3++ (which i believe is now the real point of everybodies frustration here, now all armies are basically equal in the eyes of Sir Battlecannon) i think (point costs pending of course) that this might be the first step on the road to seeing more people playing sisters.

Of course if i find the points costing to be atrocious for what you get, i would be happy to come back and eat my words.

Melissia wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Not really, at least not in an army that has access to Sisters w/ Divine Guidance. It also depends exactly on how many of those options were available to VSS's in normal Sister Squads.

A VSS is merely one model; this squad, however, could equip four power weapons. Add them using The Passion, and they can do enough damage to most marine squads (except possibly assault marines, who have enough attacks at S4 to hurt Sisters back even after their casualties, enough that they might even win combat with some slightly above average rolls) that the marines do limited damage back to the Sisters. Even if you kit this squad out for shooting-- which the rules fully allowed-- it STILL is capable of withstanding an assault better, you must admit.

The re-rolled wounds are only when using the Bolter w/Sarissa, which means they aren't pwoer weapon attacks.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Plus, OP much? Faith tests on unmodified leadership, period? Right....

It also has Martyrdom removed, so Acts of Faith are easier to pull off, but also rarer-- IE rare but powerful. You're pretty much limited to one per squad plus what your HQ choices give you.



edit: Let's no turn this into a "talk about Melissia's codex" thread, my point was that, with tweaking, the Celestians CAN be made into a good assault unit insteado f a mediocre one.

I saw "re-roll wounds" and thought it applied to shooting too. Still...

Probably a good idea on this last part, but "proving that they CAN be made into a good assault unit" isn't hard to do. Give a unit power weapons, suddenly they're very good in assault, especially if you already gave them multiple attacks.

I don't know what to tell you. On one hand I'm very sympathetic, you had an army that was decent, not super powerful, but decent, that's now completely changed and gone down the crapper.

On the other hand, the stuff that made your previous army decent, was annoying as gak to play against. Still, I'd rather the old Codex was still viable.

Bout the only good news I can tell you is that Blood Angels started out this way and ended up great. GK's sucked for years, got their new book, and were great. Sisters just need Divine Guidance and some other buffs, tweaks, and they're a fun, variable army.

GBL wrote:Lets face it, sisters were never going to keep 3++ saves for entire squads. They were never going to leave the old "roll under or over squad size" deal in place. Faith was always going to be weaker.

I have assumed for the longest time that the nerf bat would be along the lines of a combat tactics style passive army upgrade to represent faith, or one leadership roll based ability. For someone to have gone and crafted something that adds a small amount of pep to each unit in unique ways for each squad(in WD Dex at least) is above and beyond my expectations. That they do it without forcing people to keep track of a set of points for the entire game is an added bonus. however as some people have stated, i might have found a way to have it scaled with points, like D6 per turn for your first Canoness and then an additional D6 for each 4 SOB/Celest/Domini/Retrib squads. Its still going to average out to be more than you would normally get until higher points brackets.

But despite losing 3++ (which i believe is now the real point of everybodies frustration here, now all armies are basically equal in the eyes of Sir Battlecannon) i think (point costs pending of course) that this might be the first step on the road to seeing more people playing sisters.

Of course if i find the points costing to be atrocious for what you get, i would be happy to come back and eat my words.

It not just losing the 3++, it was also the lost of divine guidance. The 3++ was nice but a good sister player rarely used it. Divine Guidance was the one we used often and allowed us to competitive with other players. Now what you suggested (or others have) is actually much better. Even if it was D3 Faith points per turn plus 1 for every 2 faithful units you have, it would have been better. A leadership check would have also made more sense then just rolling a D6 and have it go off usually on a 4+ (which is 50/50). The act of faith themselves are now worse and each squad only gets one. When you compare it to other army special rules, it just seems so meh. Pain tokens seem better, orders seem better, combat tactics and they shall know no fear seems better. Also the 3++ wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. First you have to declare it at the start of the phase, so your opponent could decide to shot something else. Also it only last for one phase, so if you were also going to get charged, you would have roll it again, at which case your opponent could also choose to charge something else or not charge at all. The first few times you see it, its like "OMG OVER POWERED WTF!" but after a few times you learn to deal and counter it. Also cause you had to roll under your squad size, it usually meant your squad would have taken causalities before pulling it off and thus you could just kill them but sheer number of wounds (being T3 it's pretty easy to do that). Also it's going to be a pain keep tracking of what unit does which act of faith. In fact I think this act of faith system is more confusing then the previous one, now there is 8 acts of faith.

Opponent: "wait didn't you already use all your acts of faith for this turn?"
Sister Player: "No I still have one more left"

Or

Opponent: "You rolled a 3, so you failed"
Sister Player: "No I passed, I still have my superior and I took a causality."
Opponent: "Okay now im sure your cheating me."
*Goes and read the codex*
Opponent: "This act of faith system is so complicated."

The problem with this act of faith is it's to random, the previous one you could rely on at least.

I knew there was a reason I picked up all these sister of battle metals when people started to panic a lonnnnng while back. Though now I have to paint up 40 more sisters *sigh*... I swear if they're not 8 or 9 points each for a standard SoB, I'll be severally disappointed.

*EDIT* Also, why don't folks prefer to run 20 troop blobs of sisters instead of all in rhinos? I understand mobility, but I've always found rhinos to be nothing but death traps to T3 models... 3+ armor or not (it's still a LOT of dice to roll when you're being blown-up by a strength 4 explosion and wounded on 3s).

Because not having them is also being in a death trap, because of lots of AP3 pie plates.

Necrosis wrote:

GBL wrote:Lets face it, sisters were never going to keep 3++ saves for entire squads. They were never going to leave the old "roll under or over squad size" deal in place. Faith was always going to be weaker.

I have assumed for the longest time that the nerf bat would be along the lines of a combat tactics style passive army upgrade to represent faith, or one leadership roll based ability. For someone to have gone and crafted something that adds a small amount of pep to each unit in unique ways for each squad(in WD Dex at least) is above and beyond my expectations. That they do it without forcing people to keep track of a set of points for the entire game is an added bonus. however as some people have stated, i might have found a way to have it scaled with points, like D6 per turn for your first Canoness and then an additional D6 for each 4 SOB/Celest/Domini/Retrib squads. Its still going to average out to be more than you would normally get until higher points brackets.

But despite losing 3++ (which i believe is now the real point of everybodies frustration here, now all armies are basically equal in the eyes of Sir Battlecannon) i think (point costs pending of course) that this might be the first step on the road to seeing more people playing sisters.

Of course if i find the points costing to be atrocious for what you get, i would be happy to come back and eat my words.

It not just losing the 3++, it was also the lost of divine guidance. The 3++ was nice but a good sister player rarely used it.

Well then i have never played against a good SOB player.

Again, i dont mind the acts being so random. You shouldnt (IMHO obviously) be able to rely on a miracle. In fact the 3++ would have been a lot cooler if it was this random. That way it wouldnt reward players for putting a squad in the field of fire of an enemy, but still give them a chance to survive if say a Leman Russ lines them up while they are hiding in cover.

I am sad at how this half of the codex looks. D6 faith will not scale, and for those saying wait till points come out, not much to look forward too there. Either they will be the same points and will not be compitative, or they will be cheap (people throwing 7-8 point expected cost) and not scale well due to force organization being filled up.

FO chart being filled with cheap troops was a problem for old dark eldar. Thats why they were bad in big games. In small games they will be nice since they will get all their tools. If sisters run 8 points and rhinos go to the predicted 35 points, 6 full troop chioces in rhinos with kit and 25 point eviserators will run in the ball park of 810 points. So 60 sisters in 6 rhinos will run half of your 1500 point list. Sounds good to me. What if it is a 2000 point game? What are you going to spend 1200 points on? Or 1700 points at 2500? IG has platoons and tank squadrons to avoid this scaling problem. DE got some super expensive stuff to aviod it compaired to the old dex.

And forget winning kill points unless you play to table.

my 2 cents

GBL wrote:Again, i dont mind the acts being so random. You shouldnt (IMHO obviously) be able to rely on a miracle.

In that case, they shoudl be more powerful.

Instead, what they are is less powerful.

GBL wrote:Well then i have never played against a good SOB player.

Again, i dont mind the acts being so random. You shouldnt (IMHO obviously) be able to rely on a miracle. In fact the 3++ would have been a lot cooler if it was this random. That way it wouldnt reward players for putting a squad in the field of fire of an enemy, but still give them a chance to survive if say a Leman Russ lines them up while they are hiding in cover.

Have you even played a sister of battle before? Saying you shouldn't rely on an act of faith is like saying guard shouldn't rely on orders or that marines shouldn't rely on they shall know no fear and combat tactics or that Tyranids shouldn't rely on synapse or Ork shouldn't rely on Mob Rule. The thing is our acts of faith are now weaker and are more random. It's not just one or the other, its both.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:I am sad at how this half of the codex looks. D6 faith will not scale, and for those saying wait till points come out, not much to look forward too there. Either they will be the same points and will not be compitative, or they will be cheap (people throwing 7-8 point expected cost) and not scale well due to force organization being filled up.

Well its not just going to be the points.

Its going to be the points and additional wargear each squad can take.

As far as anyone knows, the celestian command squad may be able to take all unique weapon options like in recent codices, and like Melissias fan dex, be equipped with various kinds of power weapons.

And it might be cheap.

People arent expecting to be amazed, but yo cant really tell until the second half is released as that is where this kind of information will be.

GBL wrote:People arent expecting to be amazed

The rational ones are expecting to be disappointed, no matter what they might hope.

For myself, there is literally no way this codex can redeem itself unless it retcons the bestiary.

Lets face it, sisters were never going to keep 3++ saves for entire squads. They were never going to leave the old "roll under or over squad size" deal in place. Faith was always going to be weaker.

Why?

I actually think Faith shoudl be stronger but less frequent. Instead we got weaker and (in smaller armies) more frequent.

GBL wrote:

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:I am sad at how this half of the codex looks. D6 faith will not scale, and for those saying wait till points come out, not much to look forward too there. Either they will be the same points and will not be compitative, or they will be cheap (people throwing 7-8 point expected cost) and not scale well due to force organization being filled up.

Well its not just going to be the points.

Its going to be the points and additional wargear each squad can take.

As far as anyone knows, the celestian command squad may be able to take all unique weapon options like in recent codices, and like Melissias fan dex, be equipped with various kinds of power weapons.

And it might be cheap.

People arent expecting to be amazed, but yo cant really tell until the second half is released as that is where this kind of information will be.

You actually expect the wargear to be good? What we are doing is analyzing what we have been given to predict what we will get. We have been given gak. If you expect the army to have awesome wargear, it just ain't going to happen. Did warriors of Chaos white dwarf get awesome wargear? No, did Blood Angels white dwarf get awesome wargear? No. Do you think this codex which so far looks terrible, will get awesome wargear. To be honest no one actually does.

Would be awesome if there was some special wargear that boosted Shield of Faith by +3 or +2. I don't want to rely on Crusaders, knowing how many points they will probably cost.

On a side note, now that Sisters have relied more on the dakka phase, I think it's important to field Repressors via Imperial Armour Vol.2. Adopt the IG drive-by shooting tactic.

Necrosis wrote:

Necrosis wrote:It not just losing the 3++, it was also the lost of divine guidance. The 3++ was nice but a good sister player rarely used it.

GBL wrote:
Well then i have never played against a good SOB player.

Again, i dont mind the acts being so random. You shouldnt (IMHO obviously) be able to rely on a miracle. In fact the 3++ would have been a lot cooler if it was this random. That way it wouldnt reward players for putting a squad in the field of fire of an enemy, but still give them a chance to survive if say a Leman Russ lines them up while they are hiding in cover.

Have you even played a sister of battle before? Saying you shouldn't rely on an act of faith is like saying guard shouldn't rely on orders or that marines shouldn't rely on they shall know no fear and combat tactics or that Tyranids shouldn't rely on synapse or Ork shouldn't rely on Mob Rule. The thing is our acts of faith are now weaker and are more random. It's not just one or the other, its both.

So Space Marine Force Commanders should be able to orbital barrage once per turn? They should be able to rely on it every turn? The Faith abilities (Again ) larent meant to be the same thing as Orders. They are closer to WHFB Spellcasting. They should be the sorts of things that the game turns on but dangerous or unreliable to pull off. A properly stacked repentia unit for example, would not normally be very effective against certain units due to them stiking last (eviscerators and all that) in the face of near certain defeat, you now have a chance that they will drag an entire squad down with them. Probably much higher pointed units like Terminators and Ork nobs will fall in droves to this tactic. To counter that it is unreliable, literally more luck based than many other things. But if you pull it off (and with repentias able to be transported properly) it will make the repentias far and away worth their points cost. A tactic that desperate should be a risk. Like a plasma gun. (Again all of this is my opinion, if in your opinion sisters of battle are constantly invincible faith knights that can take battlecannon shots to the face FOR FAITH!!!! and such, thats fine too, i am merely pointing out that this codex meets with my interpretation of fluff, and will probably kick some ass and take names as it catches other 5thed codexes off guard IMHO)

There's still a lot of "The sky is falling!" going on here, and I think the lists Neph and I posted are competitive, even using the old points values (I imagine we'll see a drop in others, or at least free Vets for squads-- most [all?] 5e codexes seem to have free vets built into the points of a unit).

Seraphim were a HUGE points sink-- given the rumored drop to ~the cost of a standard marine, I can almost see taking them now,l even with reduced I.

Some ::cough, Melissa, cough:: were complaining previously that they wanted a codex where SoB were the main focus of the army-- now, this WD makes it so that's the case, and people are QQing about it? SoB don't do long-range fire support. You have to get close to put out the firepower you need, and having cheap 3+ models means you have a very good chance of doing just that.

kartofelkopf wrote:There's still a lot of "The sky is falling!" going on here

No there isn't.

This is called "realistic thinking".

kartofelkopf wrote:Some ::cough, Melissa, cough:: were complaining previously that they wanted a codex where SoB were the main focus of the army-- now, this WD makes it so that's the case, and people are QQing about it?

No, I'm saying it sucks because IT SUCKS. It doesn't matter if it's Sisters-only or Sisters-focused. It's a sucky codex. It sucks at not blowing. It blows at anti-sucking. It's horrendous. It's weak, confusing, poorly written, contains many needless nerfs and stupid concepts that don't fit the army in question.

And yet, you expect me to LIKE it, just because it's Sisters-focused?

I am appalled.

Melissia wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:There's still a lot of "The sky is falling!" going on here

No there isn't.

This is called "realistic thinking".

Complaining constantly and lioudly with only half of the information available is just that. Not realistic thinking at all.

Besides, there's at least one decent, competitive build already presented-- and that's assuming no additional points breaks. What do you want from this list? (other than OP faith/SoB based on your excessively imbalanced view of their role/capabilities from the fluff?)

kartofelkopf wrote:Complaining constantly and lioudly with only half of the information available is just that.

The only one unrealistic here are the people who think that it's going to actually get better with the next half of the codex.


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kartofelkopf wrote:your excessively imbalanced view of their role/capabilities from the fluff?

You have no damn clue what I think.