Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:
(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue
the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.
Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.
BrassScorpion wrote:In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.
And 86% of statistics are invented on the spot. Your logic is post hoc ergo propter hoc. I can do PHEPH, too: SoB material accounts for 11.7% of this month's White Dwarf, so there is no causal reason to assume any more than 11.7% of magazine purchases are related to the SoB content, and thus the vast majority of people picking up this month's magazine are doing so for the Vampire Counts cover article. See? Fallacious logic sucks, doesn't it.
That said, I really, really, really hope you're right, and that 100% of White Dwarf sales this month have been made to Sisters of Battle players. It would indicate the army has an utterly vast player base and groundswell of support - thus removing most of the arguments for Sisters of Battle not receiving the full-on Blood-Angels-Codex treatment
BrassScorpion wrote:Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:
(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue
the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.
Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.
Much as I wish it was cause of Sisters, thats probably due the very cool vampire counts rules and models.
One of my friends that's really into the game and GW in general called me up with the sole intention of making fun of me because he knows I get riled up when GW feths me over and wanted to hear me rage after he read the new codex last week. He was actually even more down on the Sisters of Battle half codex than I am. I highly doubt this is going to jump start a ton of Sister armies because people that already liked the concept currently have the army and were used to better, power games that didn't play aren't going to start up with an obviously underpowered hold over codex and people that didn't want to invest in an expensive army aren't going to suddenly start buying models that are probably worth less points now and in addition aren't even on store shelves.
Any increased sales of this month's White Dwarf are sales from VC players that are desperate for something to make their boring 8th edition Graveguard bunker plus ghoul pit army a little more exciting (which was also the cover story).
Ixquic wrote:One of my friends... making fun of me because he ...wanted to hear me rage...
I don't think you should be calling someone like that "friend"... nemesis or villan sounds more appropriate.
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BrassScorpion wrote:Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:
(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue
the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.
Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.
Mr. BS, I'm not sure what your post is intended to do other than be inflamitory. It comes off with such animosity seemingly directed at these poster and yet not. You're coming onto a thread and saying, paraphrased..."you're a minority" and "you're too loud and wrong" just because WD is selling well. The simple fact, any time there are new rules in WD it sells well.
That brings me to the next point, people are complaining about the rules, but with a rational basis. I haven't seen anyone in this thread complaining about the price of WD or its quality. The vast body of what you're writing though related it tangential to the discussion.
BrassScorpion wrote:Here's some interesting trivia related to this topic. In spite of:
(1) all the copious and vociferous complaining here on the forum about the new Sisters of Battle rules in this month's White Dwarf and
(2) the constant complaints on the forum that White Dwarf is worthless and that many people here would never, ever buy it and
(3) White Dwarf now costs $9 US per issue
the current issue of White Dwarf seems to be literally flying off the shelves at my local GW shops. I haven't seen an issue sell out this fast since the Spearhead rules appeared in the June issue of 2010.
Which leads me once again to conclude that the 80/20 rule applies to this forum as much as it does to so many other things. In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.
Well it is kinda difficult to read the magazine and be disappointed if you don't buy it. I mean it is possible, but I like my FLGS a little to much to use it as a library.
But like I said before, the sisters players as a rule will take these rules and play with them, what else can they do. I just doubt that you will see a new glut of sisters players at the tables or even a strong resurgence of old sisters players. New models and the second half of the codex will of course impact this.
Honestly, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to see an amazing part 2, new models and an upswing in sales that makes GW reconsider if they are wasting their time with marines. I am just not optimistic about it.
pretre wrote:Maybe this thread could use a little nap until the next WD comes out.
My thoughts exactly. As the starter of the thread, can I request a mod to pop this thing closed? We can always start a new one when new stuff comes out
Pyriel- wrote:There is no or very limited ecclestariary presence on the really tough death worlds the Astartes recruit from.
I would like to see the church try and steal potential recruits or take from their immediate gene relatives on Mcragge or Nocturne.
Pyriel- wrote:There is no or very limited ecclestariary presence on the really tough death worlds the Astartes recruit from.
I would like to see the church try and steal potential recruits or take from their immediate gene relatives on Mcragge or Nocturne.
Macragge is a death world? When did that happen!?
My thoughts exactly - sure, the polar caps might be a little unfriendly in certain winters, but the rest of the world is meant to be close to a paradise, as I recall.
AllistorPreist wrote:But like I said before, the sisters players as a rule will take these rules and play with them, what else can they do. I just doubt that you will see a new glut of sisters players at the tables or even a strong resurgence of old sisters players. New models and the second half of the codex will of course impact this.
Honestly, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to see an amazing part 2, new models and an upswing in sales that makes GW reconsider if they are wasting their time with marines. I am just not optimistic about it.
As has been said before, the purpose of this list isn't to drive sales, or else they'd actually make some stuff available to buy. It's a get-you-by list that likely makes for easier errata once 6th edition hits.
And err... in recruiting for the Sisters of Battle, the Ecclesiarchy's Schola Progenium wouldn't actually be "stealing recruits" from the Marines. Because Marines are male-only. Sisters are female-only. Dunno if you noticed, Pyriel.
Dunno if you noticed but i said gene relatives.
I was trying to be sarcastic and humorous at the same time, no need to be obtuse btw, you know perfectly well that I know my fluff
My thoughts exactly - sure, the polar caps might be a little unfriendly in certain winters, but the rest of the world is meant to be close to a paradise, as I recall.
Was referring as much to death worlds as well as to Astartes dominion worlds. Sorry for being to vague.
I don't think he was being obtuse, it sounded to me like you were saying it the way he interpreted it. One must remember the internet has a very thick sarcasm filter.
lol I wasnt referring to him being obtuse but melissia. She knows perfectly well that I know my fluff so I just asked to stop the nitpicking.
She´s a cool person but we have had our share of internet wars, hehe.
As for sarcasm being interpreted to kingdom come online you are perfectly right. I should be more clear in the future.
<broadcast mode active: let's leave the snarky posts out of the thread; it's amazing we've made it this far, really, but tolerance for bickering is low>
The 80 20 Rule or 80 20 Principle is not a statistic, it's a sound, well used, long tried and tested idea. It is easy to find information on it for those who have never heard of it.
BrassScorpion wrote:In other words, 20% of the people here do 80% of the posting and 80% of the complaining, but they do not in any way represent the majority of users.
And 86% of statistics are invented on the spot. Your logic is post hoc ergo propter hoc. I can do PHEPH, too: SoB material accounts for 11.7% of this month's White Dwarf, so there is no causal reason to assume any more than 11.7% of magazine purchases are related to the SoB content, and thus the vast majority of people picking up this month's magazine are doing so for the Vampire Counts cover article. See? Fallacious logic sucks, doesn't it.
That said, I really, really, really hope you're right, and that 100% of White Dwarf sales this month have been made to Sisters of Battle players. It would indicate the army has an utterly vast player base and groundswell of support - thus removing most of the arguments for Sisters of Battle not receiving the full-on Blood-Angels-Codex treatment
80/20 rule is used in economics, also called the Pareto Priniciple....<snarky text redacted>
On a more productive note though, if we see a big enough point drop in penitent engines, what do we think the likelihood is that we might start seeing lists revolving around them.
(keeping in mind that i wouldn't be half surprised to see them reduced to closer to killa kan points values, seeing as they have next to no shooting, similar armor, open topped, etc)
androcles138 wrote:if we see a big enough point drop in penitent engines, what do we think the likelihood is that we might start seeing lists revolving around them.
(keeping in mind that i wouldn't be half surprised to see them reduced to closer to killa kan points values, seeing as they have next to no shooting, similar armor, open topped, etc)
I'd be surprised to see them dip below 50 points, but if they get that low then squadrons of them might be attractive, especially against horde forces. Granted, I had hoped they would gain fleet to offset the loss of Holy Rage, but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.
I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.
androcles138 wrote:If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.
I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.
I'd agree, if the points work out. I'd also include 9 DCAs with Uriah in a Rhino as an assaulting troubleshooter squad - remembering that Penitent Engines still have Rage, so can be led around the houses by a canny opponent without ever getting close enough to engage - but I expect he'll get a 'free' Conclave without it eating up a slot. Even if it eats up one of the Elites slots, I'd prefer six PEs + Uriah w/ Conclave, just to have something I can direct at the enemy. Despite the buff, I still can't see Repentia making much of a comeback unless they can take a Dedicated Transport - and even then, I think the maths falls in favour of 9 DCAs + Uriah over 9 Repentia + Mistress.
Apart from that, the more Sisters in the force the better, to my mind.
I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Biggest example of this is when you look at the fact you get 1d6 faith in a 400 point or a 3000 point game. Instead the army is going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.
If we break down a Sister Squad and look at it from 3rd codex and the new WD codex here's what we possibly lose; Stubborn, Faith powers that make the squad durable and able to fill multiple rolls +2 str, rending, +2 int, +3 invul... so on. What we gain is; Frag and Krak nades, Bolt Pistols a +6 invul and a 50/50 shot at passing a faith check compared to something like 90% of the old codex. It's not uncalled for to think we're going to get a big points dip.
So, at 8 points a Sister we can see -30 points from the cost of a basic sister squad and -23 points per Rhino (not taking extra armor for 15, vs taking for 5 in the old codex, +free smoke launchers)
So per squad, we're going to see a point reduction of something like 50 points per Sister squad in a Rhino.
multiply that by 6 troop choices and we're saving 300 pts for just the troop choice alone.
Of course this is all speculation, but we do know Rhinos will be 35 points a peice (standard among codexes), and most likely 45 pts for Immolators (same as razorback).
Still, if we do receive a reduction (which we should) I could care less about faith, or a white dwarf release, I'm actually really excited and optimistic, because I've been winning with an out of date army, and now that it's updated and most likely cheaper, I see this army becoming quite a bit meaner.
Kreedos wrote:I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Instead it's going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.
If we break down a Sister Squad and look at it from 3rd codex and the new WD codex here's what we possibly lose; Stubborn, Faith powers that make the squad durable and able to fill multiple rolls +2 str, rending, +2 int, +3 invul... so on. What we gain is; Frag and Krak nades, Bolt Pistols a +6 invul and a 50/50 shot at passing a faith check compared to something like 90% of the old codex. It's not uncalled for to think we're going to get a big points dip.
So, at 8 points a Sister we can see -30 points from the cost of a basic sister squad and -23 points per Rhino (not taking extra armor for 15, vs taking for 5 in the old codex, +free smoke launchers)
So per squad, we're going to see a point reduction of something like 50 points per Sister squad in a Rhino.
multiply that by 6 troop choices and we're saving 300 pts for just the troop choice alone.
Of course this is all speculation, but we do know Rhinos will be 35 points a peice (standard among codexes), and most likely 45 pts for Immolators (same as razorback).
Still, if we do receive a reduction (which we should) I could care less about faith, or a white dwarf release, I'm actually really excited and optimistic, because I've been winning with an out of date army, and now that it's updated and most likely cheaper, I see this army becoming quite a bit meaner.
I'm not relishing how much money I'd have to spend to get my army back up to snuff.
I ran Sisters as 5 20 man squads with Karamazov as the HQ at one point, worked rather well, but left me with like 120+ Sisters, so I don't mind as much that I'll actually be able to use them.
Kreedos wrote:I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Instead it's going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.
I think the level of complaining has been exacerbated by indiscriminate and largely uncontrolled trolling, to be fair. The two topics that seem to consistently come up are the changes to the Faith system (which, unless accompanied by a commensurate points dip per sister, is a nerf to the army), and the removal of the Immolator's pseudo-fast quality (which may still be rectified by wargear in the second half of the Codex - but, if it isn't, represents a bit of spite on the part of Ward'n'Cruddace, since Sisters had that before BA got Fast Flamerbacks). There are other concerns, like a potential nerfing of the specials-to-models ratio the Dominions had in C:WH, or nerfs to the Exorcist Launcher, but all of those are speculative and unconfirmed, and the truth won't be known until we see the next White Dwarf.
Personally, I think that the effectiveness of the Codex hinges on points costs and wargear options. Going over it in my head, I can see how I'd make a force work if the points pan out the way everyone's hoping and there are no nasty surprises in terms of weapons loadouts. I certainly don't think the White Dwarf Codex will kill the army - but it also won't breathe any new life into it, due to the lack of 'cool' units and the lack of new plastics - for that, we'll need the Dark Eldar treatment, and my biggest worry about the WD Codex is that it might have postponed us getting that treatment for another three years.
If you read the exorcist entry out of WD It sounds exactly like the old launcher, with a variable amount of shots, but a chance to roll 1 shot in which that would be (the machine spirit failing) like it says in the codex entry.
Also, I highly doubt that dominions will experience any changes to their load out or else they wouldn't be considered a specialist squad anymore and there would be no reason to have them besides scouts, I could understand if they made them troops with scouts, but they didn't.
Also if you didnt catch it, Retributor squads can take 4 heavy flamers that rend with their faith power. That sounds disgusting and can fit the role of taking out elites.
Kreedos wrote:Also, I highly doubt that dominions will experience any changes to their load out or else they wouldn't be considered a specialist squad anymore and there would be no reason to have them besides scouts, I could understand if they made them troops with scouts, but they didn't.
Well, I meant more needing 10 Dominions to take 4 special weapons, rather than the current 5 Dominions. But I agree, I suspect it's just more doomsaying from folks out to demonise Games Workshop as money-grubbing monsters trying to make us replace all our Immolators with Rhinos
Kreedos wrote:Also if you didnt catch it, Retributor squads can take 4 heavy flamers that rend with their faith power. That sounds disgusting and can fit the role of taking out elites.
The EZ-Bake oven - it might actually be good enough to displace one of my Exorcists, but I'd need to do a little friendly testing first to see how they handle. I used to occasionally run EZ-Bake Lite with Dominions squads using old Divine Guidance (which did effectively the same thing as new Divine Guidance, but for every unit instead of just Retributors) and I have very fond memories of it.
androcles138 wrote:If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.
I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.
At 50 they're significantly better then killa kans while being all of 5 points more. Having that many attacks at that strength with that level of surviveability for only 50 points would be good. Really really good. At 450 you're getting 9 Penitent engines or a terminator squad. Nine penitents is not equivalent to 10 terminators.
androcles138 wrote:If we see them at 50, and squads of 3, that means that for 450 points we could have a total 9 pieces of (albeit low) armor for saturation, that though slow wouldn't be half bad in combat.
I think that a case could be made for a list of 3 'cists, 3 3-man penitent engine squads, and the rest as sisters and dominions.
At 50 they're significantly better then killa kans while being all of 5 points more. Having that many attacks at that strength with that level of surviveability for only 50 points would be good. Really really good. At 450 you're getting 9 Penitent engines or a terminator squad. Nine penitents is not equivalent to 10 terminators.
Going to agree with you here, penitent engines should be staying around the same point cost probably around 70-80 pts per, they're slightly nerfed for movement (no longer getting d6 inches and not getting fleet.) But instead are now great for taking out squads, 2x heavy flamer per and d6 attacks that cause further attacks make them awesome for both vehicle and squad hunting, which makes rage not that big of a deal. All and all I see them going down, but not very much.
Kreedos wrote: All and all I see them going down, but not very much.
With AV11, Open-topped and Squadron? A PE is 33% more likely than a Terminator to be taken out by an Autocannon hit. Sadly, I doubt they'd be worth the points (or financial) investment if they come in at 80 per model - but such is life
Kreedos wrote: All and all I see them going down, but not very much.
With AV11, Open-topped and Squadron? A PE is 33% more likely than a Terminator to be taken out by an Autocannon hit. Sadly, I doubt they'd be worth the points (or financial) investment if they come in at 80 per model - but such is life
And a penitent engine has a 9.14% chance of being killed by a plasma gun shot as opposed to a 27.72% chance on a storm shield terminator or 56%. Three fold to six fold difference. The penitent has a 33% chance of dying to a meltagun vs 55% on a standard terminator. The comparisons get a lot worse when considering items like starcanons, bolters, flamers, demolisher canons, heavy bolters, power weapons etc. They're actually pretty comprable from a survivability standpoint given that they are vulnerable to different things with comparable wound statistics to many which is where the penitent engines double heavy flamers and massive close combat punch come in to make them significantly better.
ShumaGorath wrote:And a penitent engine has a 9.14% chance of being killed by a plasma gun shot as opposed to a 27.72% chance on a storm shield terminator or 56%. Three fold to six fold difference. The penitent has a 33% chance of dying to a meltagun vs 55% on a standard terminator. The comparisons get a lot worse when considering items like starcanons, bolters, flamers, demolisher canons, heavy bolters, power weapons etc. They're actually pretty comprable from a survivability standpoint given that they are vulnerable to different things with comparable wound statistics to many which is where the penitent engines double heavy flamers and massive close combat punch come in to make them significantly better.
Agreed - the comparison should be made instead between two Furioso Dreadnoughts and three Penitent Engines, but I really am too tired to do the math-hammer on their vulnerabilities, ranged strength, likely outcome of assault and the disadvantages of Rage Either way, at 240 points per squadron, there are probably better unit options coming in next month's army list, and I happily concede the debate and wish you luck fielding your Penitent Engines, ShumaGorath.
ShumaGorath wrote:And a penitent engine has a 9.14% chance of being killed by a plasma gun shot as opposed to a 27.72% chance on a storm shield terminator or 56%. Three fold to six fold difference. The penitent has a 33% chance of dying to a meltagun vs 55% on a standard terminator. The comparisons get a lot worse when considering items like starcanons, bolters, flamers, demolisher canons, heavy bolters, power weapons etc. They're actually pretty comprable from a survivability standpoint given that they are vulnerable to different things with comparable wound statistics to many which is where the penitent engines double heavy flamers and massive close combat punch come in to make them significantly better.
Agreed - the comparison should be made instead between two Furioso Dreadnoughts and three Penitent Engines, but I really am too tired to do the math-hammer on their vulnerabilities, ranged strength, likely outcome of assault and the disadvantages of Rage Either way, at 240 points per squadron, there are probably better unit options coming in next month's army list, and I happily concede the debate and wish you luck fielding your Penitent Engines, ShumaGorath.
I play vanilla space marines until Tybaros comes in the mail. I pay 120 base for dreadnoughts that average less then half the wounds penitent engines do and which can't be taken in squads.
240 points is still very nice for a cheap suicide squad that can deal a large amount of damage, cause panic on the enemy side, and even in a squdron, 3 Penitent Engines if played behind cover/rhino wall and jumped into CC quickly should survive most of the game, and if they don't they'll deal at least 240 points worth of damage most of the time. Even if you run the squad straight at a LR, hell, they'll at least make up their points.
1. Remember that in a squadron, an immobilized is as good as a destroyed.
2. Alone, an immobilized PE is basically done, unless your opponent is silly enough to wander into HF range (and then he deserves the roasting he'll get )
3. The EZBake still isn't going to make it worth not taking an Exorcist. EZBake is good for taking out (hard) infantry, which is not something that Sisters usually struggle with between all the melta, and the saturation of fire that Bolters and Flamers provide. Anti-Armor on the other hand, especially long range anti-armor has always been a major weakness of the Sisters. Under the (imo, somewhat large) assumption that the Exorcist stays the same, you'll still want to field as many as possible both for reliability (nothing like rolling that 1 for number of shots :-\ ) and for punch. I used to take allied IG for Sentinel Squadrons for this purpose, but with allies no longer an option...
4. Scouting Dominions. One of the (imo few) positive changes. The loss of DG hurts the EZ-Bake Lite, but the Twin Linked AoF for Melta makes up for it. That said, don't expect this to surprise most players. Lots of armies have scouts / out flankers. Still, 4 meltas (assuming they don't nerf it) in a scouting transport is pretty dangerous.
5. I'm in the "PEs probably won't go down to 50 points, considering Killa Kans" camp. Also consider Deff Dreads. They have (on average) fewer attacks, lower Init, and have to sacrifice their "Heavy Flamers" if they want more CC punch. Granted, they have better armor and aren't open topped, and don't have Rage (which I will never consider a positive trait in any case). They start off at 85 points minimum after buying the mandatory weapons (which aren't HFs, but A3 weapons used as BS2...). I would probably expect PEs at 65ish points or so. Still a points drop, but meh. I bought the models, might as well try em.
6. I can not begin to understand the "I'm glad Faith is taking a back seat". It's our one special set of rules. That'd be like losing Synapse, ATSKNF, WBB or Mob Rule. Yes, you can still use the army without it, but not only does it lose some of its power, it loses a lot of its character and feel. I know that those are a bit more intangible (and possibly completely irrelevant to some players), but I still feel like overall it's a loss to the army.
SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.
Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz? No, you know what, you're right. Lets go with this theory. Why should dark eldar tanks cost so much more then ork trukks when they have the same armor! From now on Dark Eldar Ravagers will be 30 points! Sternguard are now 16 points, they're no more tough then a regular marine! I guess it never did make any sense that a manticore would cost more then a chimera, they have the same armor after all!
SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.
Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz? No, you know what, you're right. Lets go with this theory. Why should dark eldar tanks cost so much more then ork trukks when they have the same armor! From now on Dark Eldar Ravagers will be 30 points! Sternguard are now 16 points, they're no more tough then a regular marine! I guess it never did make any sense that a manticore would cost more then a chimera, they have the same armor after all!
Well, Shuma, that was uncalled for - I agree with your initial point (and would suspect 65-70 points myself), but the hyperbolic examples weren't required.
SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.
Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz? No, you know what, you're right. Lets go with this theory. Why should dark eldar tanks cost so much more then ork trukks when they have the same armor! From now on Dark Eldar Ravagers will be 30 points! Sternguard are now 16 points, they're no more tough then a regular marine! I guess it never did make any sense that a manticore would cost more then a chimera, they have the same armor after all!
Well, Shuma, that was uncalled for - I agree with your initial point (and would suspect 65-70 points myself), but the hyperbolic examples weren't required.
ShumaGorath wrote:I play vanilla space marines until Tybaros comes in the mail. I pay 120 base for dreadnoughts that average less then half the wounds penitent engines do and which can't be taken in squads.
But if you don't play Sisters of Battle, why do you even care?
And the entire point of 'conceding' is to avoid further conflict and argument. Magnanimity, while less 'fun' than trolling, is sorely underrated.
So, has anyone done the maths comparing DCA squads and Repentia against MEQs?
Hmmm just got an update on my army builder warhammer 40k 5th edition. Reading trough some of the bug fixes etc I came across section saying *Sisters of battle will not be added before 2 months after the second Release of WD*
Dont know if this is new or old news for you guys or even news.
SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.
I'm thinking something like 195 for a squad of 3, not 245, it's still a bit expensive to field 9 at 600 points, but not too expensive to field a squad of three.
Also, on paper they are fragile, but as far as my experiences, they live quite awhile.
Kreedos wrote:I'm thinking something like 195 for a squad of 3, not 245, it's still a bit expensive to field 9 at 600 points, but not too expensive to field a squad of three.
If they came in at that price point, I'd probably field them as Elites instead of Repentia. Of course, we don't know for certain that they'll be Elites yet - if they're still Heavy Support, then the discussion is academic.
On the subject of Repentia, the numbers against MEQs seem to lean in favour of DCAs, mainly due to the whole I1 thing, and the 50/50 chance of getting Spirit of the Martyr to fire.
Kreedos wrote:I'm thinking something like 195 for a squad of 3, not 245, it's still a bit expensive to field 9 at 600 points, but not too expensive to field a squad of three.
If they came in at that price point, I'd probably field them as Elites instead of Repentia. Of course, we don't know for certain that they'll be Elites yet - if they're still Heavy Support, then the discussion is academic.
On the subject of Repentia, the numbers against MEQs seem to lean in favour of DCAs, mainly due to the whole I1 thing, and the 50/50 chance of getting Spirit of the Martyr to fire.
I'm almost positive they're Elites, they're listed right under repentia in the section that elites would be in, in all the new codexes.
Repentia are most likely going to be much cheaper, probably around the same price as DCA's (150) and if they take a wound it's something like a 60-65% chance to fire Spirit.
So if one wanted they could take like 2x DCA squads and 3x Repentia.
Kreedos wrote:I'm almost positive they're Elites, they're listed right under repentia in the section that elites would be in, in all the new codexes.
Oh, agreed - just including the caveat so as not to be jumping the gun
Kreedos wrote:Repentia are most likely going to be much cheaper, probably around the same price as DCA's (150) and if they take a wound it's something like a 60-65% chance to fire Spirit.
So if one wanted they could take like 2x DCA squads and 3x Repentia.
It's situational, but the DCA normally come out better even if the Repentia AoF goes off (and on their first charge, it's likely the Repentia will have a 50/50 chance to trigger their act - hopefully they're in a Transport now, so they're no longer taking casualties as they footslog). Running through a hypothetical melee against 10 Lightning Claw Termies, 9 DCAs + Crusader annihilate the Terminators by their second phase, while the results are reversed for Repentia. Against TH/SS, the Repentia compare slightly better, but still not as favourably as a Conclave.
Repentia are more about their vehicle killing power, and secondary squad killing power. I'd play them to jump from vehicle to vehicle for as long as they could survive, and assault a squad if they can. They're not the unit you're going to want to slam up against Elites, Death cult fit this roll much better, and that's what I think this codex is all about, defining the roles of the army, instead of having squads that can fit all roles. People aren't going to expect the Repentia to barrel out of a parked Rhino and move 6+D6+charge range to their vehicle, either that or they won't really have much to stop it do to the increased mobility of the squad.
I think its ok for Penitent Engines to be priced close to Killa Kans because Sisters don't have KFF. Yeah at 50pts, Kans are 5 pts cheaper but don't forget the 85pt Big Mek hanging out nearby. Ignoring 50% of incoming shots is huge.
Kreedos wrote:Repentia are more about their vehicle killing power, and secondary squad killing power. I'd play them to jump from vehicle to vehicle for as long as they could survive, and assault a squad if they can.
I can see the wisdom in that - but given they're subject to Rage, you'd have to be very lucky, or your opponent would have to be very dense, to actually have your enemy's vehicles set up so that your Repentia can pinball between them turn by turn when you eventually unleash them from their (currently hypothetical) transport. I confess, Rage on any unit tends to make me treat it as a F&F weapon.
Personally I think that what's going to make Repentia worth taking is if they can take a transport. Otherwise they will be a big pain in the ass to get where you want them to due to rage and frankly with twin linked dominions, Seraphim with two shots a piece, exorcists, rending heavy bolters and potentially relentless multimeltas I don't think army really needs much more help busting tanks. It needs at least one unit that can stick in combat for a turn after it blows its wad in close range shooting or to hold objectives.
Also there is no way a Penitent Engine is worth more that 50 points. Its stats are better than a Kan but you can choose where a Kan goes which is incredibly important. You have no control over a Penitent Engine after you put it on the table which is a huge liability. In addition a Kan can have ranged threat which an Engine does not (until it gets one shot with its heavy flamer). Add in that after penetrating its armor 11 front you need to roll a 1 or 2 NOT to kill it and they don't get where you want most of the time. It's not like there's a lot of armor in the army that the high strength stuff your opponent has will be shooting at instead. I'm hoping for no more than 55 since I think GW over estimates how awesome they are but being in the heavy slot isn't the only reason you never saw those in a Witch Hunter army.
I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Biggest example of this is when you look at the fact you get 1d6 faith in a 400 point or a 3000 point game. Instead the army is going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.
As it stands, there is no scalability on the number of faith acts. The WH player may hope for some artefacts boosting this number.
I think the penitents shouldnt get a points reduction but a stat buff to balance them at their current point cost.
I cannot see a penitent engine being of the same poor quality or the same poor impact on the battlefield as a grot kan is. They are advanced engines of destruction and should reflect that rather by quality then quantity.
Pyriel- wrote:I think the penitents shouldnt get a points reduction but a stat buff to balance them at their current point cost.
I cannot see a penitent engine being of the same poor quality or the same poor impact on the battlefield as a grot kan is. They are advanced engines of destruction and should reflect that rather by quality then quantity.
I would agree with you in an ideal world - but we know the stats of the PE now, and I don't think anyone's expecting wargear to fix its "Open-Topped" quality, or buff its AV, so I'd hope we're looking at a points drop. If we get neither, then I can't see them being an optimal choice for the points.
Pyriel- wrote:I think the penitents shouldnt get a points reduction but a stat buff to balance them at their current point cost.
I cannot see a penitent engine being of the same poor quality or the same poor impact on the battlefield as a grot kan is. They are advanced engines of destruction and should reflect that rather by quality then quantity.
Since the basic stats have remained the same that ship has sailed at least until the next codex. PE's have received a slight nerf (depending on your point of view) to speed and a slight buff to weapons with 2 heavy flamers instead of 1 and +1 attack. The got the Rage USR and lost their way to dictate weapon destroyed results. Everything else is the same as it was before meaning its difficult to survive to get to CC range as even a glancing hit has a 33% chance of destroying one in a sqaudron.
There are three very solid reasons Penitent engines will not be a staple in new Sisters lists:
1) Co$t: The vast majority of Sisters vets don't own any (or more than a couple) because they have never been a good choice. Myself and every other current Sisters player I've talked to has no plans on dishing out hundreds of dollars on a handful of them. Same thing really can be said of Repentia.
2) Role: Penitent Engines have the stats and weapons to do a job in the Sisters army that doesn't need to be done. Heavy flamers... when was the last time a Sisters player said 'now if only I had more Heavy flamers to deal with infantry...'. We don't have trouble with infantry, nor do we have trouble with mobile short-ranged units that can take out tanks. Taking Penitents is like hiring extra painters when building a house but forgetting to hire a guy to put up drywall. Its more of what we already don't need.
3) Unreliability: Basically, they're too slow, and too fragile, so can't be relied on to do their job. Then there is the whole 'not being able to control them' thing...
Maybe their point costs will be cut nearly in half, but theres still #1. Maybe they'll get made into resin and cost a lot less ( haha, just kidding), but then there is still #2 and 3.
Kreedos wrote:I just have to say, I don't understand all the complaining, this army update looks amazing, and the real actual SOB players know we're in for a points dip. So instead of faith being the backbone of the army, it's more as a helpful tool, but not to be relied on. Biggest example of this is when you look at the fact you get 1d6 faith in a 400 point or a 3000 point game. Instead the army is going to be more focused on the saturation of cheap but still elite troops that can carry flamer and melta, also cheaper Rhinos.
Much of the complaining, at least from me, isn't really based in specific units and equipment. Its more about the army losing its soul. Meltas, flamers, ya that'll still be there, but the principle that a weak-ish troop unit could at some point burn some faith to take down a statistically stronger unit was one of the great joys of playing Sisters, and appears to be gone.
The feel/soul of the army has gone from a bunch of troops that can pull off miracles, to a watered down version of Blood Angels without Fast vehicles, or Guard vets in Power armor with marine equipment, minus the tanks. The flexability is gone, and we get rank and file instead.
You know, I just realized, Celestians have basically turned into a much crappier version of khornate berserkers. The current version of Hand of the Emperor is essentially a crappy version of Furious Charge, and it grants fearless as well. This combined with Celestians gaining +1 WS and +1 attack... the comparison is uncanny now.
andrewm9 wrote:PE's have received a slight nerf (depending on your point of view) to speed
I would agree with you in an ideal world - but we know the stats of the PE now, and I don't think anyone's expecting wargear to fix its "Open-Topped" quality, or buff its AV, so I'd hope we're looking at a points drop. If we get neither, then I can't see them being an optimal choice for the points.
Melissia wrote:You know, I just realized, Celestians have basically turned into a much crappier version of khornate berserkers. The current version of Hand of the Emperor is essentially a crappy version of Furious Charge, and it grants fearless as well. This combined with Celestians gaining +1 WS and +1 attack... the comparison is uncanny now.
andrewm9 wrote:PE's have received a slight nerf (depending on your point of view) to speed
No point of view here. It's simply truth.
Sorry perhaps I shoudl have been clearer. Its clearly a nerf no matter who's looking at it I think but whether its a big or a small one is dependent on how imporatnt you think that is. Personally I think its more than slight since its hasn't changed much.
ShumaGorath wrote:I play vanilla space marines until Tybaros comes in the mail. I pay 120 base for dreadnoughts that average less then half the wounds penitent engines do and which can't be taken in squads.
But if you don't play Sisters of Battle, why do you even care?
I don't like the prospect of facing a 400 point squad of 9 walkers with the ability to roll over my entire army. As much as I don't play them I'm still playing a game that they're in.
Much of the complaining, at least from me, isn't really based in specific units and equipment. Its more about the army losing its soul. Meltas, flamers, ya that'll still be there, but the principle that a weak-ish troop unit could at some point burn some faith to take down a statistically stronger unit was one of the great joys of playing Sisters, and appears to be gone.
The feel/soul of the army has gone from a bunch of troops that can pull off miracles, to a watered down version of Blood Angels without Fast vehicles, or Guard vets in Power armor with marine equipment, minus the tanks. The flexability is gone, and we get rank and file instead.
But the system is still there and that army existed before faith points.
SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.
Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz?
Because Killa Kans have access to the Kustom Force Field. They're also not closed-top. The combination makes them about 4x as resilient to glancing hits, and still more than twice as resilient to penetrating hits.
Also, calm down; rational debate, not hyperbole, please.
Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.
Hulksmash wrote:Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.
Yeah this is exactly right although from the layout of the White Dwarf I would assume they have been moved to elites. There they are competing with Repentia (which will again be ignored if they can't take a transport) and Priest squads which could be decent so they won't have to worry about Exorcists stealing their thunder.
I haven't read much of the 6th ed rules but Rage really needs to be removed. It's just horrible and totally takes the control out of a player's hands which is idiotic for a strategy game.
Ixquic wrote:from the layout of the White Dwarf I would assume they have been moved to elites. There they are competing with Repentia (which will again be ignored if they can't take a transport) and Priest squads which could be decent so they won't have to worry about Exorcists stealing their thunder.
I haven't read much of the 6th ed rules but Rage really needs to be removed. It's just horrible and totally takes the control out of a player's hands which is idiotic for a strategy game.
I'd wager they've been moved to Elites based on the list format - even if only from a business perspective, having your second most expensive model competing with your (infinitely more useful) most expensive model for a Force Organisation Slot is a bad idea. Regarding Rage? I actually like it on the Penitent Engines - it's nice and fluffy, even if it impacts their usefulness. We're playing an army of zealots driven by their all-consuming devotion to Him on Earth, and it's nice to see it occasionally reflected in the mechanics.
Hulksmash wrote:Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.
So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model? At 405 points 9 of them would wipe out an entire terminator assault squad, storm shields and all, in a single charge with average rolls and without firing the 18 heavy flamers. Thats one of the most resilient units in the game and it costs the same while having a third the damage output and no ranged weaponry. I know you guys feel like you're getting pretty burned on this codex, but this is just plain wishlisting and brutally bad game design.
This walker has the most damage output in close combat of any walker in the game, it doubles most. You want it to cost a third the rest of the field because of a loss of one point of armor and open topped. No.
ShumaGorath wrote:So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model?
How about at 15 pts/model? Death cult assassins.
At 405 points 10 of them would wipe out an entire terminator assault squad, storm shields and all, in a single charge with average rolls and without firing the 18 heavy flamers. I know you guys feel like you're getting pretty burned on this codex, but this is just plain wishlisting and brutally bad game design.
First, good luck getting 9 of them into contact with a single terminator squad. Second, as they aren't fleet, good luck getting to the Terminator squad any time soon. Third, what are your guns doing, while this indescribably-horrible assault unit is sauntering in your direction?
Fourth, remember what I said about hyperbole, please.
ShumaGorath wrote:So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model?
No, but for 15 points per model, 8 Grey Knights Death Cult Assassins (120 point squad) will cause an average of 10.67 force weapon wounds on a 10-marine squad per turn. They lack the Heavy Flamers, but aren't subject to Rage and can potentially hide in transports or terrain, and for the 10 point difference you can add a Multi-Melta or Heavy Bolter Servitor.
Edit:
Janthkin was quicker off the mark than I was.
In any case, let's try to avoid circular arguments about the Penitent Engine - it suffices to say that folks who've played Sisters armies since the late 90s don't feel they'd be worth taking if they went above 60ppm, and since they're the ones who'd have to buy them (because none of us really own more than three - I have two painted and assembled, and one that's pinned, incomplete, and been that way since before Mandelson's second resignation from Blair's Cabinet), they're the ones most likely to care.
ShumaGorath wrote:
So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model?
Janthkin beat me to it. Deathcult assassins. For the record 9 for 135. 36*2/3*1/2 = 12 MEq kills on the charge (9 if flat footed). Thatis at I6 btw.
And they get even more sick with all the GK perks and access to a transport (including storm raven and land raider).
Hulksmash wrote:Don't forget access to things like BS3 Rokkits and Grotzookas in an army book that is boosted greatly by adding them. PE's should be in the 45pt range, the same cost as a Grotzooka armed Kan. Though if they are still heavy support then it won't matter how cheap they are since they still won't be taken.
So for 130 points you want to have a unit that with average rolls will wipe out a 10 marine squad a turn every turn from the moment it makes contact without having to shoot (if they shoot you only need two!)? Can you name something else in the game capable of that at 45 points per model? At 405 points 9 of them would wipe out an entire terminator assault squad, storm shields and all, in a single charge with average rolls and without firing the 18 heavy flamers. Thats one of the most resilient units in the game and it costs the same while having a third the damage output and no ranged weaponry. I know you guys feel like you're getting pretty burned on this codex, but this is just plain wishlisting and brutally bad game design.
This walker has the most damage output in close combat of any walker in the game, it doubles most. You want it to cost a third the rest of the field because of a loss of one point of armor and open topped. No.
Do those other walkers get to choose where they go?
Who cares how much damage it can do in combat when you can't dictate where it goes (meaning it's possible you are being led around by some worthless scout squad) and a Penitent Engine is less survivable than the Assault Terminator so chances are it won't even get there? Do you set your army literally in front of your opponent's and just push your stuff forward?
SabrX wrote:240 points is cheap? Really?! They are as fragile as hell. IMO they should cost as much as Killa Kanz.
Why should something so significantly better then killa kanz cost as much as killa kanz?
Because Killa Kans have access to the Kustom Force Field. They're also not closed-top. The combination makes them about 4x as resilient to glancing hits, and still more than twice as resilient to penetrating hits.
Also, calm down; rational debate, not hyperbole, please.
As Janthkin pointed out, Penitent Engines don't enjoy the same protection as Killa Kanz. Sure they have slightly better stats, but they are purely foot-sloggging assault, without any range shooting. This is sluggish for mechanized warfare. It's not like Dreadnoughts, Sentinels, Eldar Walkers, or Killa Kanz, who at least have some fire power. On top of all that, Penitent Engines are uncontrollable (have to move and run towards the closes unit). Your opponent can manipulate them into a large tarpit or against a unit they have no chance of defeating in assault. Open topped is another factor. Even a glancing blow can prove fatal. They are sacrificial ponds. As such, 80 points is way too steep. They are less durable than a Rhino, with even less mobility, so perhaps 50 points is just about right. Think of it as a Rhino with Extra Armour.
In regards to Death Cults and Assassins, they are better off in a Grey Knight list. Hammerhand greatly boosts their effectiveness, a long with Acolyte with Meltaguns and assault transports. IMO, the lack of Hammerhand in codex Sisters of Battle should make their Crusaders and Death Cults slightly cheaper in points cost. In any case, it won't mean anything if they don't have stubborn at a squad level rather than IC. A tar-pit must endure, not break and get slaughtered in sweeping advance.
Pyriel wrote:
I'd wager they've been moved to Elites based on the list format...
I'm inclined to believe GW's going to do two things... make Penitent Engines weaker and more in line with what you'd expect of something clearly derived from a sentinel, make it squadroned to compensate, moving it out of the Heavy Support FOC and into elite or fast attack depending on the angle they decide to go with it... then introduce a beefier version that actually lives up to the what the P.E. should be.
I think the biggest issue the SoB have is that they have become so greatly defined by meltas and flamers... almost more than Salamanders. At the same time GW hasn't done enough to either distinguish those weapon preferences or introduce other appropriately diverse weapons. Both the IG and Space Marines have more varied flame tanks than the SoB, seems a bit wrong. It seems GW has really pushed SoB as SM light and that is acting as barrier to giving them anything worthwhile. GW doesn't seem to go out of its way to short change IG vehicles, but SoB seem to just end up with tweaked down versions of Marine gear. Vehicle wise SoB should just be different, without being any better or worse than other Imperial factions. Giving SoB better vehicles and units is just a matter of giving a justifiable fluffy reason why marines would choose not to use something. The PE for example, should be generally as good as a Dreadnought... with the system making the pilot prone to rage explanation why the marines wouldn't want to use it. I'm holding out hope that GW will do something like the Crassus on a more landraider scale giving the SoB a mobile shrine/tank. Something seemingly impractical to the more pragmatic marines but appropriate for the religious zealots to use.
aka_mythos wrote:I think the biggest issue the SoB have is that they have become so greatly defined by meltas and flamers... almost more than Salamanders. At the same time GW hasn't done enough to either distinguish those weapon preferences or introduce other appropriately diverse weapons. Both the IG and Space Marines have more varied flame tanks than the SoB, seems a bit wrong.
This is something that rankles, admittedly. Perhaps this will be fixed in the new Immolator upgrades, but the fact that no Sisters of Battle vehicles get access to a Flamestorm Cannon, while the Blood Angels stick one on top of a Rhino chassis, give it sponsons, give it fast, give it AV13 and give it Scouts, always seems a touch unfair given how exclusively the Sisters are forced to use the Flamer-Melta motif. But, as I say, perhaps their Flamer-based weapons will get the Ward treatment in next month's White Dwarf.
The Penitant Engines do present quite a problem. On the one hand, I agree that 50 points is too cheap. At that cost wind them up and send them after whatever, why not? Our troops should be cheap enough to allow a bunch. On the other hand, I wouldn't touch them at 80 pts no matter what chart slot they are in. I cannot think of a magic number where they are cheap enough to take, but expensive enough not to run over everything.
Then again, even at 45 points I can't see taking them over an excorcist. Like Creeping Dimentia said, who needs more heavy flamers on a light fragile vehicle when you can have armor and range? two things the sisters aint got much of.
Mythal wrote:while the Blood Angels stick one on top of a Rhino chassis, give it sponsons, give it fast, give it AV13 and give it Scouts
From a sarcastic point of view, this is only fitting, considering the Blood Angels also stole the Inferno Pistol and made it better. I sense a pattern.
The problem with PEs is that several current strong builds will look at them, laugh, and wipe them off the table in the first turn. Long Fang spam, razorspam, most GK armies, Hive Guard 'nids, almost any IG army I can think of. Probably dark eldar too.
But 9 PEs look like an awful threat for anybody else. They are damn dangerous on the charge. Orks may well have serious problems if the PEs can get favorable charges, and 6 or 9 might just overrun a middling SM army.
But remember, they have rage and no fleet. Getting two units of them to charge *anything* is going to be difficult unless your opponent just doesn't care to interfere with them.
The Grog wrote:The problem with PEs is that several current strong builds will look at them, laugh, and wipe them off the table in the first turn. Long Fang spam, razorspam, most GK armies, Hive Guard 'nids, almost any IG army I can think of. Probably dark eldar too.
Then all the Rhinos, Immolators, and Exorcists will be untouched; awesome.
AllistorPreist wrote:I cannot think of a magic number where they are cheap enough to take, but expensive enough not to run over everything.
I would say 60 would be the uppermost cut-off. That means when fielding a squadron, you're paying what you'd pay for a Furioso Librarian, but without the hardiness, mobility, initiative, force weapon, additional psyker powers, Psychic Hood, or ability to board Skimmer Transports, and still having Rage, and thus no control over the Squadron after initial placement.
Lynata wrote:
Mythal wrote:while the Blood Angels stick one on top of a Rhino chassis, give it sponsons, give it fast, give it AV13 and give it Scouts
From a sarcastic point of view, this is only fitting, considering the Blood Angels also stole the Inferno Pistol and made it better. I sense a pattern.
I'm trying to keep a positive outlook - after all, the fellow who wrote Codex: Blood Angels co-wrote the new Sisters Codex. That gives some real scope for a Wargear section that may well make our eyes pop out. "Holy Promethium, +35 points, gives T-L Heavy Flamers the profile Template, S6, AP3"? Yes, please, I'll take six.
A Nob with a Power Klaw on the charge (no way the Orks shouldn't get the charge) has 4 attacks. At WS 4 that is...
2 Hits, 1/3 Pen Glance, 4/3 Pen
Glance - Kills on 5+ so 1/9 from Glances
Pen - Kills on 3+ so 8/9 from Pens
The Nob will on average take out 1 Penitent Engine per combat. In return they average
4.5 attacks
2.25 hits
1.875 Dead
Additional swings kill another 0.78 for 2.8 or 3 dead orks. This is at the cost of one of the Penitent Engines. With no damage results Fearless might kill another 3 in the worst case for 6 dead Orks. That is at the cost of a PE which still leaves the PE behind in points if they come to 50 points. This also assumes no Big Shootas or Rokkits fire at all during the approach to take out any of the PE either.
calypso2ts wrote:A Nob with a Power Klaw on the charge (no way the Orks shouldn't get the charge) has 4 attacks. At WS 4 that is...
2 Hits, 1/3 Pen Glance, 4/3 Pen
Glance - Kills on 5+ so 1/9 from Glances
Pen - Kills on 3+ so 8/9 from Pens
The Nob will on average take out 1 Penitent Engine per combat. In return they average
4.5 attacks
2.25 hits
1.875 Dead
Additional swings kill another 0.78 for 2.8 or 3 dead orks. This is at the cost of one of the Penitent Engines. With no damage results Fearless might kill another 3 in the worst case for 6 dead Orks. That is at the cost of a PE which still leaves the PE behind in points if they come to 50 points. This also assumes no Big Shootas or Rokkits fire at all during the approach to take out any of the PE either.
Seems to me the Orks will be fine against them.
Penitent Engines are INT 3, your power claw would most likely be dead before it got it's attacks, and it's more likely you'll go up against 3 penitent engines in a combat, than just one. I cant see anyone taking just one. So it'd be 6x3 = 18 dead orcs. I'd say 150 points for 3 isn't leaving anything behind.
Kreedos wrote:Penitent Engines are INT 3, your power claw would most likely be dead before it got it's attacks, and it's more likely you'll go up against 3 penitent engines in a combat, than just one. I cant see anyone taking just one. So it'd be 6x3 = 18 dead orcs. I'd say 150 points for 3 isn't leaving anything behind.
Remember that a PE averages 4.5 attacks when charged (1d6+1), and against Orks only half of those attacks will hit (WS4 vs WS4), and of those 5/6ths will wound. Also, Ork Boyz have Furious Charge (for a strength buff to the Nob, in this scenario), and a Nob blobbed in amongst a mob of Boyz can't be individually targetted. All in all, allowing for the vaguaries of probability, all three PEs should be dead before they can break our hypothetical 30-boy mob (idealised, 17.7 Ork casualties, 106.2 points, for 3 Penitent Engines). But let's not get bogged down in this circular argument
Edits: Refining the maths, allowing for Fearless and factoring in reduced strength on the Nob in subsequent turns to the first.
Janthkin wrote:As Janthkin pointed out, Penitent Engines don't enjoy the same protection as Killa Kanz. Sure they have slightly better stats, but they are purely foot-sloggging assault, without any range shooting. This is sluggish for mechanized warfare. It's not like Dreadnoughts, Sentinels, Eldar Walkers, or Killa Kanz, who at least have some fire power.
Penitent engines have more firepower then killa kanz. Two heavy flamers is significantly more damaging then a single skorcha and will average much higher results then a grotzooka. They don't have the ranged tankbusting a rokkit gives, but then that's an afterthough on kans as well given how poor they are with the weapons. You also just compared them to units that are averagely 140-100-and 35 points. All three of which would die to a PE in combat.
On top of all that, Penitent Engines are uncontrollable (have to move and run towards the closes unit). Your opponent can manipulate them into a large tarpit or against a unit they have no chance of defeating in assault.
It's difficult to tarpit a unit with that many heavy flamers. Mass squads like orks will have issues when half or more of their number are killed. They can't be tarpitted in a cost effective manor in combat by anything else given their strength and number of attacks. Even then, at 45 points you've succedded in tarpitted all of 135 points of models. They are very bad tarpit targets. The uncontrollability is their primary problem, but given the sisters likely use as a short range fire base army I find it hard to believe that they could be kited with much success. Running a unit beside them or intervening with a transport is all it takes to change what counts as the shortest distance of travel. In all likelihood the kiting unit would be killed by shooting before it could lead them to do much other then an unwanted assault. Even then, given the sheer power the PE has in assault it's unlikely something could survive the assault and with a reasonable consolidation you're not losing much for a turn.
Open topped is another factor. Even a glancing blow can prove fatal. They are sacrificial ponds. As such, 80 points is way too steep. They are less durable than a Rhino, with even less mobility, so perhaps 50 points is just about right. Think of it as a Rhino with Extra Armour.
Firstly they do come with extra armor and have a 6+ invlun which offsets the 16% death chance with a 16% chane to ignore damage. If you want to compare them to a rhino sure, but that rhino averages roughly 7 str 10 attacks per assault and carries two weapons that are typically tank mounted. I don't believe 80 points is the right price. They werent used before primarily becuase they didn't fit the metagame and because they were pricey. 45 is inane. Thats an utterly unrealistic number for something that will kill every other unit in the game in combat in an equivalently pointed fight and which also carries enough squad busting ranged weaponry to anihalate most high number squads before they even need to assault.
In regards to Death Cults and Assassins, they are better off in a Grey Knight list. Hammerhand greatly boosts their effectiveness, a long with Acolyte with Meltaguns and assault transports. IMO, the lack of Hammerhand in codex Sisters of Battle should make their Crusaders and Death Cults slightly cheaper in points cost. In any case, it won't mean anything if they don't have stubborn at a squad level rather than IC. A tar-pit must endure, not break and get slaughtered in sweeping advance.
I doubt they would retain use as a tarpit. FC gives a similar bonus to hammerhand and the faith powers would make such a unit more of an alpha strike counter-assault unit then a tarpit. The kind of thing that you throw at asssault terms after lighting them up in range.
ShumaGorath wrote:
Penitent engines have more firepower then killa kanz. Two heavy flamers is significantly more damaging then a single skorcha and will average much higher results then a grotzooka. They don't have the ranged tankbusting a rokkit gives, but then that's an afterthough on kans as well given how poor they are with the weapons. You also just compared them to units that are averagely 140-100-and 35 points. All three of which would die to a PE in combat.
Ha! Ha! Wow, are you serious? You crack me up. Penitent Engines DO NOT have more firepower than Killa Kanz.
Penitent Engine has.... 2 Heavy Flamers. Rokkit Launcha is not an afterthought on kans. They have BS3, which is considerably good for what they do. Plus, their weapon load out makes them more versatile whereas Penitent Engines are only decent against infantry and aren't reliable against vehicles moving cruising speed. Also, footslogger w/ template weapons rarely gets a chance to use it. It's easy to anticipate their move and deploy/move in such a way to minimize the damage.
It's difficult to tarpit a unit with that many heavy flamers. Mass squads like orks will have issues when half or more of their number are killed. They can't be tarpitted in a cost effective manor in combat by anything else given their strength and number of attacks. Even then, at 45 points you've succedded in tarpitted all of 135 points of models. They are very bad tarpit targets. The uncontrollability is their primary problem, but given the sisters likely use as a short range fire base army I find it hard to believe that they could be kited with much success. Running a unit beside them or intervening with a transport is all it takes to change what counts as the shortest distance of travel. In all likelihood the kiting unit would be killed by shooting before it could lead them to do much other then an unwanted assault. Even then, given the sheer power the PE has in assault it's unlikely something could survive the assault and with a reasonable consolidation you're not losing much for a turn.
Penitent Engines don't have fleet. Thus it's fair game for either side to shoot and assault before the other gets a chance to use their weapon. Crusader with Assault Terminators can easily get the drop on Penitent Engines. As mentioned previously, template weapons is a poor choice on a walker. Space Marines can get by thanks to better delivery methods such as Drop Pods. Penitent Engines don't have that luxury.
Firstly they do come with extra armor and have a 6+ invlun which offsets the 16% death chance with a 16% chane to ignore damage. If you want to compare them to a rhino sure, but that rhino averages roughly 7 str 10 attacks per assault and carries two weapons that are typically tank mounted. I don't believe 80 points is the right price. They werent used before primarily becuase they didn't fit the metagame and because they were pricey. 45 is inane. Thats an utterly unrealistic number for something that will kill every other unit in the game in combat in an equivalently pointed fight and which also carries enough squad busting ranged weaponry to anihalate most high number squads before they even need to assault.
As Janthkin pointed out, Killa Kanz can be protected by Big Mek's Kustom Forcefield. 6++ is laughable. Majority of the time, they will fail and die. Also, Killa Kanz can upgrade to Armour Plates or Grot Riggers.
I doubt they would retain use as a tarpit. FC gives a similar bonus to hammerhand and the faith powers would make such a unit more of an alpha strike counter-assault unit then a tarpit. The kind of thing that you throw at asssault terms after lighting them up in range.
Show me where do they have Furious Charge of any Acts of Faith? Last time I checked, Battle Conclaves do not have any acts of faith. Furthermore, Assault Termies have assault vehicles. What do Battle Conclaves have?
And for the record, all your quotes came from me and not from Janthkin. Get your facts right.
Unless you're goig to argue that they can have all thsoe at once then yes, they do. Variety and volume aren't the same thing.
Penitent Engine has.... 2 Heavy Flamers. Rokkit Launcha is not an afterthought on kans. They have BS3, which is considerably good for what they do.
3 shots, 1.5 hits, .75 pens on av11, .375 pens on covered. Short range. Can't run and shoot. Considerably good is not the term I would use. Two heavy flamers can kill entire squads, ignore cover, and can threaten low AV vehicles without missing. 6 heavy flamers against av11 have the same odds in effecting av11 as 3 rokkits do.They won't do the same damage since they cant pen, but given the sisters love for meltaguns and short range firefights I doubt that vehicle would be much of a roadblock.
Plus, their weapon load out makes them more versatile whereas Penitent Engines are only decent against infantry and aren't reliable against vehicles moving cruising speed.
16.5 attacks on the charge with 3, 2.75 hits when needing 6's. 2.75 pens against everything except LRs and monoliths. .91% chance of kill on the charge. Those numbers are actually pretty reliable.
Also, footslogger w/ template weapons rarely gets a chance to use it. It's easy to anticipate their move and deploy/move in such a way to minimize the damage.
My ironclad rarely has that issue. Probably because it's not the only thing in my army. Not everything is going to assault the PE or run away. Obective holders especially will be vulnerable to the templates (ask any guard player about those guns on the chimera).
Penitent Engines don't have fleet. Thus it's fair game for either side to shoot and assault before the other gets a chance to use their weapon. Crusader with Assault Terminators can easily get the drop on Penitent Engines.
6 ATs and a crusader costs more then 9 PEs at 45 points per. If they charged 9 PEs they would lose 5.67 of their number before they even got to attack. If it's 6 and a crusader vs 3 PEs then I'm left wondering what the other 270 points of sisters are doing to make up the difference. Even if it was just six on three the PEs average 2 kills before the ATs go. They're paying for about 66% of what you paid for by accident. Those are damn good attrition rates when fighting assault terms.
As mentioned previously, template weapons is a poor choice on a walker. Space Marines can get by thanks to better delivery methods such as Drop Pods. Penitent Engines don't have that luxury.
I dont think the PE is all that worried about being counter charged by most opponants.
As Janthkin pointed out, Killa Kanz can be protected by Big Mek's Kustom Forcefield. 6++ is laughable. Majority of the time, they will fail and die. Also, Killa Kanz can upgrade to Armour Plates or Grot Riggers.
Grot riggers are pretty bad on a squadron unit and there are ways of screening PEs. You've also highlighted the difference between those two units. People screen the kans so that the kans can screen the boyz. They are a delivery mechanism for other troops. They shoot poorly, they are poor in combat. The PE is a suicide assault unit which happens to be the single most powerful assault unit in the game and which also happens to carry dual heavy flamers. There is a marked difference between what is effecitvely a walking cheap piece of terrain and a 20 foot tall buzz saw that will disintegrate almost anything it touches.
Show me where do they have Furious Charge of any Acts of Faith? Last time I checked, Battle Conclaves do not have any acts of faith. Furthermore, Assault Termies have assault vehicles. What do Battle Conclaves have?
Yeah, I was mistaking celestians with canones as the canones having FC. PE and +1 init is pretty similar (statistically better actually) regardless and the squad benefits from the ICs ability. As for what the battle conclaves have, I think in the new sisters book they have an entire army surrounding them. Like I said in my paragraph, they would be a shock counter assault unit. Not a glass canon. They'll deal with the assault term squad that your opponant managed to bring to your lines, not go out and find it.
And for the record, all your quotes came from me and not from Janthkin. Get your facts right.
Stop multiquoting so much then, I had a lot of names I had to delete.
ShumaGorath wrote:Unless you're goig to argue that they can have all thsoe at once then yes, they do. Variety and volume aren't the same thing.
3 shots, 1.5 hits, .75 pens on av11, .375 pens on covered. Short range. Can't run and shoot. Considerably good is not the term I would use. Two heavy flamers can kill entire squads, ignore cover, and can threaten low AV vehicles without missing. 6 heavy flamers against av11 have the same odds in effecting av11 as 3 rokkits do.They won't do the same damage since they cant pen, but given the sisters love for meltaguns and short range firefights I doubt that vehicle would be much of a roadblock.
And how many turns does it take for Penitent Engines to reach Killa Kanz? They do have an option whether to move forward and engage or move around and shoot. Yeah, good luck getting those Heavy Flamers in range. It's not like the Penitent Engines will arrive without taking casualties. They are AV11 open topped after all. Boyz in the back can declare waagghh and assault the Penitent Engines before they have a chance to use their Heavy Flamers. But if I was an Ork Player (which I'm not), I would shoot at my Lootas at the Penitent Engines. There isn't much in the new Sisters of Battle arsenal to counter range anti-mech infantry. I suppose you could always try deep striking Seraphims (they will scatter) out-flank with Dominions (random board edge and in effective against targets situated in the middle).
16.5 attacks on the charge with 3, 2.75 hits when needing 6's. 2.75 pens against everything except LRs and monoliths. .91% chance of kill on the charge. Those numbers are actually pretty reliable.
You assume all 3 will be left standing to make their attacks.
My ironclad rarely has that issue. Probably because it's not the only thing in my army. Not everything is going to assault the PE or run away. Obective holders especially will be vulnerable to the templates (ask any guard player about those guns on the chimera).
Subjective. I don't know opponents you've faced or their skill level. I seldom see ironclads. Also, you are comparing apples to oranges. Ironclads have better armor, better delivery method, and more firepower. Short range shooty walkers are uncommon in my neck of the woods unless they deep strike via Drop Pod or have Wings of Sanguinius (BA).
I don't have to ask any guard player. They can sit back and pick off open topped walkers with ease. Their Chimeras are more mobile and have fire points. Vets with triple Meltaguns is extremely common. And let's not forget those pesky Vendettas with their 3 TL-Lascannons.
6 ATs and a crusader costs more then 9 PEs at 45 points per. If they charged 9 PEs they would lose 5.67 of their number before they even got to attack. If it's 6 and a crusader vs 3 PEs then I'm left wondering what the other 270 points of sisters are doing to make up the difference. Even if it was just six on three the PEs average 2 kills before the ATs go. They're paying for about 66% of what you paid for by accident. Those are damn good attrition rates when fighting assault terms.
Once again, you put too much emphasis on Penitent Engines all intact long enough to make it into combat. 9 Penitent Engines = 810 points. Crusader + 6 Assault Termiantors = 490 points. Last time I checked, 810 =/= 490 points. It's an unfair comparison. So let's make it even by comparing 6 Penitent Engines (480 points) to the Crusader and its 6 Assault Terminators. And let's assume 6 Penitent Engines are still alive. Also, let's not forget that a huge chunk of points is being spent on a Crusader. Crusader fires its Assault Cannon first. 3.556 hits, 0.329 wrecked and 0.165 explodes. There's a chance one of the Penitent Engines from one of the two squads will bite the dust. So the average attacks from 5 Penitent Engines not assaulting (Assault Terminators will be the ones assaulting because they are inside an assault vehicle) is 22.5 attacks. and 3.13 dead Assault Terminators. 9 Thunder Hammer attacks back, 0.625 explodes, .0833 wrecked, and .416 weapon destroyed. Battle continues until either side is dead.
I dont think the PE is all that worried about being counter charged by most opponants.
And I think most opponents will have to worry about getting charged by PE or flamed by slow moving Heavy Flamers. Not when they can PE to death or tarpit them with hordes or tough to kill assault units.
Grot riggers are pretty bad on a squadron unit and there are ways of screening PEs. You've also highlighted the difference between those two units. People screen the kans so that the kans can screen the boyz. They are a delivery mechanism for other troops. They shoot poorly, they are poor in combat. The PE is a suicide assault unit which happens to be the single most powerful assault unit in the game and which also happens to carry dual heavy flamers. There is a marked difference between what is effecitvely a walking cheap piece of terrain and a 20 foot tall buzz saw that will disintegrate almost anything it touches.
I was pointing out a 1 v1 fight. Yes PE are suicidal squads, which is why I think they could cost 50 points instead of 80 points. Dual Heavy Flamers counts for nothing if they are on a fooslogging walker. I've yet to see a strong counter argument to that.
Stop multiquoting so much then, I had a lot of names I had to delete.
Don't blame me for your mistakes. At least I preview and proof read before I submit.
Penitent Engines sucked in the old codex and they're not getting any better in the "new" one. For anyone that still plays sisters of battle I recommend they watch this.
evilsponge wrote:Penitent Engines sucked in the old codex and they're not getting any better in the "new" one. For anyone that still plays sisters of battle I recommend they watch this.
Pyriel- wrote:...that basically require a fragile 220p flying chicken plus luck to do their thing.
No more luck than a Penitent Engine squadron does, given they have rage and can be led around by the nose without ever being able to attack. Remember, Rage units can't be actively controlled by their own player, they have to move towards the closest visible enemy unit. Also, Penitent Engines don't have Fleet, so they can't assault on a turn in which they've run. As such, a single fast vehicle can potentially neutralise 9 Penitent Engines for the duration of a battle, just by trailing them away from the bulk of enemy infantry (which are what the PE is designed to kill), all the while the PE squadrons taking leisurely shooting casualties from ranged anti-mech.
The argument is largely academic until we see what the points costs are next month. Remember that we don't know if Conclaves will be Elites - they could be limited to one per Confessor, like Command Squads, in which case the Penitent Engine's primary competition will likely be Repentia. Which at current points costs is a choice between a brown turd and a green turd - they're aesthetically different, but both stink. Assuming that both Penitent Engines and Repentia are Elites. If Penitent Engines are still Heavy Support, then they could cost the same as a Space Marine Terminator per model and they still wouldn't be taken, because the Exorcist remains our must-have model.
So, trying to move past the rowing over Penitent Engines, what do folks think the price of new Repentia should be? Or, rather, how cheap do they have to be to make you field them?
T'would appear that we're about done with regards to news and thoughts relating to the currently released parts of this list. I'm sure there'll be news and rumours with regards to the 2nd part soon enough, it's best that gets it's own thread as/when.
As per usual, feel free to discuss issues raised in this thread in 40K general, background etc etc as appropriate.
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