Couple things:

1. To the people saying 4 Retributors with heavy flamers blah blah blah. Remember that the current C:WH took Heavy Flamers from Retributors. I, for one, have no doubts that they will stay gone, despite the picture in the Dwarf 'Dex. They can't get the caption on an image right, I don't trust them to get the images themselves right. Assuming that they'll suddenly be back is akin to wish listing.

2. Assume your IC is 13" away. I charge, after I move, you have to move in yourself. He's now 7" away. Combat resolves, neither unit runs. Both sides now pile in 6". In one turn, you've gone from 13" away to 1" away. Now, I admit it's been awhile since I've played 40k, so if I'm misremembering something I apologize, but it seems like you'll be in b2b much faster than put forward.

Edit:

3. To the first "Competitive" list posted: You honestly expect to claim objectives with only 2 troop units, who are foot slogging?

Since the fluff text in the entry directly mentions Heavy Flamers, I'll reach a new level of despair should the Rets not be allowed HFs.

I'm not saying it's impossible, or even unlikely, but damn, that's a new low for GW if it happens.

IIRC, the C:WH entry also mentions them, despite them not actually being an option. So it wouldn't be the first time :-\ They had them in the 3rd edition (? the thing flimsy one that was before exorcists...), but took them out for 4th, leaving them with just the Heavy Bolter and Multi-Melta. I'm nearly positive that the image of the "Retributor with Heavy Flamer" is in C:WH...

The book makes no mention of HFs in the Rets' entry, nor is the picture/wrong caption combo present in a quick flip-through.

The Grog wrote:Since the fluff text in the entry directly mentions Heavy Flamers, I'll reach a new level of despair should the Rets not be allowed HFs.

I'm not saying it's impossible, or even unlikely, but damn, that's a new low for GW if it happens.

Codex Chaos Space Marines 3.5 - Death Guard Legion page. Picture of Plague Marine with Heavy Bolter.

Guess what we couldn't have?

The Grog wrote:The book makes no mention of HFs in the Rets' entry, nor is the picture/wrong caption combo present in a quick flip-through.

it seems my brain is playing tricks on me. I could have sworn the "Retributor with Heavy Flamer" pic (not the mis labeled Retributor with heavy bolter) showed up in the gallery section of the codex.

I do stand corrected then. I do still have reservations about Heavy Flamers on Retributors again though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sabrx - you do realise with 20 girls that IC could be 13" away, yes?

Thats two turns of not being based

With the squad suffering losses from shooting and close combat, and the assualt reaction moving before the girls and the pile in move for BOTH sides, that is NOT 2 turns.

And you do realise that 13" could easily be 24" or more?

nosferatu1001 wrote:And you do realise that 13" could easily be 24" or more?

Why would you be that spread out? Since almost assuredly the girls in the back are doing nothing lacking any guns that reach further than 24" and that are 12" if you are moved. That would be a waste. Thats a lot of waste to assure one special character doesn't get insta-gibbed which probably nullifies what you are trying to achieve in the first place.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

The Grog wrote:Since the fluff text in the entry directly mentions Heavy Flamers, I'll reach a new level of despair should the Rets not be allowed HFs.

I'm not saying it's impossible, or even unlikely, but damn, that's a new low for GW if it happens.

Codex Chaos Space Marines 3.5 - Death Guard Legion page. Picture of Plague Marine with Heavy Bolter.

Guess what we couldn't have?

Not just that picture, a lot of Nurgle/Death Guard ones have heavy weapons, but can;t use them.

Yep. IIRC there's also one in the Index Astartes article with a squad armed with a Heavy Bolter as well.

The 'official' excuse? It was a Kai Gun. Then then floundered when I asked if that meant I could arm every squad with a Kai Gun.

GBL wrote:
A properly stacked repentia unit for example, would not normally be very effective against certain units due to them stiking last (eviscerators and all that) in the face of near certain defeat, you now have a chance that they will drag an entire squad down with them. Probably much higher pointed units like Terminators and Ork nobs will fall in droves to this tactic.

There is no way a half way decent player is going to let them anywhere NEAR their terminators and nobs. Terminators and Nobs have mobility, repentia do not. They have no mobility(fleet really doesnt count) and more importantl;y, no armor. They wont GET to those units.


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kartofelkopf wrote:

Seraphim were a HUGE points sink-- given the rumored drop to ~the cost of a standard marine, I can almost see taking them now,l even with reduced I.

Not even remotely for what you did with them. Maybe a touch high, but definately NOT a point sink. At the cost of a standard marine, they aer over costed for what you get currently.


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kartofelkopf wrote:
Cool. So, for the third time, do you think the lists posted earlier in this thread are competitive?

In a word, no.


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kartofelkopf wrote:...? 4x10 SoB in Rhinos can't hold control points?

2x20 Stubborn/FNP SoB can't hold control points?

Do you even play 40k?

No. Because where are you going to cause damage? You dont nearly have enough to deal with mech meta, further, any space wolf player would destroy this army pretty quick with LF and other stuff, for example. Those stubborn/FNP sisters die to large pie plates.


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GBL wrote:

If i can use ten guard to hold an objective, you can use twenty power armoured guard to do the same.

Only becuase you have more pressing things for folks to DEAL with then those 10 guardsmen. There is nothing in that list that would do the same to take the pressure off the 20 sister unit.

kartofelkopf wrote:Dominions look to have gotten a huge bump with Scouts, even if the Immilator is less good (very much less good... no fire points makes me a sad panda).

THat's not huge. They just went from useless to actually useful.

The entire army should have gotten buffs liek that, not merely one unit.

Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Melissia wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:Dominions look to have gotten a huge bump with Scouts, even if the Immilator is less good (very much less good... no fire points makes me a sad panda).

THat's not huge. They just went from useless to actually useful.

The entire army should have gotten buffs liek that, not merely one unit.

Pardon my cynical nature, but I bet Dominions are limited to 2 special weapons per 5 models in the squad.

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Oh Wow..

Holy_doctrine wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Oh Wow..

Motion thirded. That said, remember that even Gav got better after he'd had enough time to fail spectacularly.

Savnock wrote:

Holy_doctrine wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Oh Wow..

Motion thirded. That said, remember that even Gav got better after he'd had enough time to fail spectacularly.

I know, it's just Cruddance broke my Imperial Guard , he made my Tyranids laughable on the table, and now my Sisters of Battle are without a paddle it seems.

Surprisingly, the small text previewing the 2nd part of the Codex next WD lists only Cruddace as the author.
Maybe we get the best of both worlds: Rules by Cruddace and background texts by Ward
Maybe they can reactivate Gary Morley for the sculpts

Kroothawk wrote:The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

I was actually thinking that the background felt a bit Wardian, but not as Wardian as you'd expect from Ward. Now I know why.

I was actually thinking that the background felt a bit Wardian

Wardian?

I love it, it's like a literary critics term. "The Wardian school of background writing favours the more extravagant, 'hollywood' style of writing. Critics of the Wardian approach find that the background is inconsistant with the nature of the subject, whilst being littered with hyperbole that finds either little or exaggerated reflection within the actual rules - see 'The Draigo Incident'. "

"Are you a Kellite or a Wardite?"
"Actually I'm a Cruddite"
"By name by nature..."

I feel a faux Wikipedia entry coming on...

Well said, Wardspawned

In regards to Repentia, i think they should make the Mistresses Neural Whips a paralizing type weapon (makes enemies in base contact with her strike last, making them strike at the same time as the normal repentia) similar to the way mancatchers used to slow enemy attacks.

So I'm gathering here that they are only releasing half the codex this month? Without point costs or other information this is worthless to me from an army building standpoint.

So we have to wait yet another month to play with the new ruleset?

Kevin Nash wrote:So I'm gathering here that they are only releasing half the codex this month? Without point costs or other information this is worthless to me from an army building standpoint.

So we have to wait yet another month to play with the new ruleset?

That is correct.

Kroothawk wrote:

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Ouch. Thats painful.

Well, if Cruddace is writing the fluff, and Ward is writing the rules, it actually might be quite excellent...

But if Cruddace is writing the rules and Ward is writing the fluff... ewwww.

RatBot wrote:Well, if Cruddace is writing the fluff, and Ward is writing the rules, it actually might be quite excellent...

But if Cruddace is writing the rules and Ward is writing the fluff... ewwww.

So..any bets on how many Sisters are going to be slaughtered in their own fluff then?

It makes me laugh that every new Codex/Army book release, the forums go mental with people complaining about 'codex creep' and that this new army is more overpowered than the last one and that seemingly the world is coming to an end, GW are idiots and all the rest of if.

They release a 'seemingly' underpowered dex, and you're all doing exactly the same thing but in reverse! Now you hate that it's NOT as powerful as the last codex and that the world is still coming to an end, GW are still idiots etc etc.

Change the record, it's getting boring.

Kevin Nash wrote:So I'm gathering here that they are only releasing half the codex this month? Without point costs or other information this is worthless to me from an army building standpoint.

So we have to wait yet another month to play with the new ruleset?

Of course, GW knows how to please...

I am just surprised how many people did not realize how integral the faith system were for SoBs. For non-Immolator Spam, Faith was vital to giving sisters options... It made the army unique.

Like BA Priests and Special rules, ATSKNF, Ork Mob rules, Synapse, DE PnP, and IG Orders, Faith was really really important to making sisters work. Without it, it makes Sisters like worse versions of Marines. That is depressing.

Unlike the special rules I listed, the new faith is NOT reliable. And it is much much much weaker. I am hoping I can see how some one can make this work.

The Decapitator wrote:It makes me laugh that every new Codex/Army book release, the forums go mental with people complaining about 'codex creep' and that this new army is more overpowered than the last one and that seemingly the world is coming to an end, GW are idiots and all the rest of if.

They release a 'seemingly' underpowered dex, and you're all doing exactly the same thing but in reverse! Now you hate that it's NOT as powerful as the last codex and that the world is still coming to an end, GW are still idiots etc etc.

Change the record, it's getting boring.

Is it so hard to grasp that we want something in between the two extremes? We don't want new armies to be weaker than mid-range 3rd edition codices, and we don't want new armies to be more powerful than high-end 5th edition codices.

People will bash you for not agreeing that "OMG THIS CODEX R AWESOME" (or that it will be) when they'll never actually play it themselves nor did they play its previous incarnations. Probably best to ignore them. They're just going to get condescending and rude otherwise.

Heck, even though I don't think the Tyranid codex is as bad as its players says it is (I understand why they complain though, what with how the rest of the fifth edition codices are, and its FAQ...), I don't actively go bashing them or suggesting that they want an OP codex...

Holy_doctrine wrote:So..any bets on how many Sisters are going to be slaughtered in their own fluff then?

Indeed. Ward likes slaughtering Sisters.

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

Let's hope Matt Ward is doing some rules for them next month. We might get levels of ridiculous unseen.

I was under the impression that sisters never won anything in fluff either.

My guess is we'll get the same crap we've always had, rehashed to fit in a WD.

GBL wrote:I was under the impression that sisters never won anything in fluff either.

They do, but it's always against rebels, never against an army which has an actual codex. So basically, the Adversaries section of C:WH-- that's what they win against.

Ah well, I'm avoiding getting worked up as don't play 40k any more, really. Pity. The Sisters were the army that I liked playing, but my view tended to be a bit heretical to the established canon.

I viewed them (in the kind of irony that fits 40k quite well) as generally one of the more 'professional' military forces of the Imperium. Not as crazy-fanatic as the Space marines, better equipped than the Guard.

Plus they're something that makes sense with my view of the Imperium as a nasty stew of factions with 'ultimate authority.' If the Imperium needs to crush rogue Space Marines, Sisters are the ideal to lead the attack (albeit with massive losses) as they have a rivalry, are considered less corruptible than most Guard, and have weapons that at least aren't pitiful against Space Marines.

That's not really heretical; that's basically second edition fluff to a tee.

Admittedly, the flamey-boots from one image and the highly decorated armor are a little over the top, but most real-world militaries have some decorations and weird traditions, and aren't thousands of years old.

The non-scaling faith seems like an example of limited playtesting at best. It was a neat way to give them a lot of potential special rules without being overly broken. I think the Black Templar's Vows were much more exploitable.

However it is quite different to their showing in Ciaphas Cain.


Lets face it, GW fluff is anything you want it to be.


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Balance wrote:Admittedly, the flamey-boots from one image and the highly decorated armor are a little over the top, but most real-world militaries have some decorations and weird traditions, and aren't thousands of years old.

The non-scaling faith seems like an example of limited playtesting at best. It was a neat way to give them a lot of potential special rules without being overly broken. I think the Black Templar's Vows were much more exploitable.

I did hear a rumour early on (dont know where) that the WD codex hadnt been playtested at all.

Whether that means there is going to be something exploitable in there or if there is nothing in there at all has i guess been the focus of the last 16+ pages of debate.

GBL wrote:However it is quite different to their showing in Ciaphas Cain.

Cain didn't like fanatics, but even he never doubted their incredible combat prowess.

Course, his interpretations of the motivation of anyone he comes across is wrong a remarkable number of times...

Of course there is a viable build. You can minimize on infantry and max on transports/tanks/artillery. It's almost irrelevant what troops you have if you take this approach to army design in 5th edition.

Unless exorcists are now going to be allowed to make squadrons the most tanks the sisters can have is 3. They have 0 artillery pieces. How do you propose to fill in the rest of your points? FYI in the current C:WH those 3 exorcists would cost 450 points total with storm bolters and extra armour on them.

Just to add confusion to injury (we've already got insult): it seems that Sisters vehicles don't get searchlights as standard.

It sounds lame (because it is lame), but you just max on every slot's available tanks. For HQ, the command squad. Min sized celestians for elite, dominions for fast, etc. Of course you max on your 3 exorcists. The disadvantage compared to standard mech is range...but there are advantages to having twinlinked heavy flamers and mobile ap1 shots.

Just sad times if you face the Eldar Avatar.

Melissia wrote:Indeed. Ward likes slaughtering Sisters.

Amazingly enough, the Sisters actually win some battles in their timeline write-up. There's only half a dozen entries, and they're all on a single page.

- Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
- A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
- Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
- Sanctuary 101 gets a single sentence
- The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.
- Sisters reinforce the Imperial Guard on a Cardinal World under assault by the Tyrannids. The Sisters hold off the Tyrannids long enough for the Ecclesiarchy's priests to evacuate.


So...

One curb-stomp win (Red Corsairs), one solid win by enemy decapitation (Ulthwe Eldar), one 'back and forth but ultimately victorious' win (Black Legion; St. Celestine is involved), one successful but costly raid to retrieve relics, one 'buy the non-combatants time to evacuate before getting overrun' battle (Tyranids), and Sanctuary 101.

Curiously, the Sanctuary 101 mention doesn't even include why it's such an important battle from a fluff perspective.

Eumerin wrote:Amazingly enough, the Sisters actually win some battles in their timeline write-up. There's only half a dozen entries, and they're all on a single page.

- Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
- A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
- Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
- Sanctuary 101 gets a single sentence
- The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.
- Sisters reinforce the Imperial Guard on a Cardinal World under assault by the Tyrannids. The Sisters hold off the Tyrannids long enough for the Ecclesiarchy's priests to evacuate.


So...

One curb-stomp win (Red Corsairs), one solid win by enemy decapitation (Ulthwe Eldar), one 'back and forth but ultimately victorious' win (Black Legion; St. Celestine is involved), one successful but costly raid to retrieve relics, one 'buy the non-combatants time to evacuate before getting overrun' battle (Tyranids), and Sanctuary 101.

Curiously, the Sanctuary 101 mention doesn't even include why it's such an important battle from a fluff perspective.

Wow, sisters of battle actually won some battles. I'm shock.

scuddman wrote:It sounds lame (because it is lame), but you just max on every slot's available tanks.

We only have one tank, and one walker, both take up heavy support. The only vehicles we have outside of heavy support are transports.

This compared to Guard who gets vehicles in FA and HS, and Marines who get vehicles in Elites, FA, and HS.

I don't midn if Sisters are infantry-focused, but their infantry have to be widely varying for that to work as a codex design. They aren't, and it doesn't, because GW has yet to competently design a Sisters codex.
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Eumerin wrote: - Nine seperate orders curb stomp the Red Corsairs when the latter try to hit San Leor (where the Sisters originated).
- A shrine world pops out of the warp fully corrupted, and the Sisters land a force to retake some artifacts. The group that goes after the relics (as opposed to the sisters holding the perimeter) is nearly wiped out, but they do manage to recover a few untainted relics before the Grey Knights arrive to Exterminatus the planet with cyclonic torpedoes.
- Sebastian Thor's homeworld is attacked by Ulthwe. A Seraphim squad takes out the Eldar farseer leading the attack. (note - these are Eldar that the Sisters are fighting, and thus the only race that is possibly even more ill-favored in the recent fluff than the Sisters...)
- The Sisters reinforce the Salamanders in a war against the Black Legion. Things are going well until the Daemon Prince leading the other side unleashes a large horde of possessed Chaos Marines. Saint Celestine appears and carves a path through the horde. She kills the daemon prince and disappears.

Soruce?

Melissia wrote:Soruce?

WD. I picked up a copy at my FLGS today.

Ah, this month's WD. Thanks.

Does it still do the rulebook's stupid "durr, only three major orders" bullgak?

Kroothawk wrote:Small tidbit (no time to search through 21 pages of spam, whether it has alreadybeen mentioned):

The WD Codex lists Robin Cruddace AND Mat Ward as authors.

RAAGGGEE!!!!

Kroothawk wrote:Surprisingly, the small text previewing the 2nd part of the Codex next WD lists only Cruddace as the author.
Maybe we get the best of both worlds: Rules by Cruddace and background texts by Ward
Maybe they can reactivate Gary Morley for the sculpts

Here's to Cruddace to make the wargear and unit points cost super cheap and effective. We've seen him make squads dirt cheap in Nid and IG codices, invoking the horde or spam mentality. I want to drown my opponent with boobs, power armours, bolters, meltaguns, and Immolators! This is your chance to redeem your self Cruddace!

Melissia wrote:Ah, this month's WD. Thanks.

Does it still do the rulebook's stupid "durr, only three major orders" bullgak?

The background fluff mentions the creation of all six of the major orders. However, the fluff essentially stops after the creation of the last two (created in M38 well after the deaths of the respective Sisters that inspired them), so it's still possible for GW to slip in an idiotic "oh, and these three major orders were all destroyed subsequently" if they wanted to.

However, they don't actually state that, which is promising imo.

The fluff picks up again with the curb-stomping of the Red Corsairs on the timeline, which happens in 799.M41.


Also, keep in mind that the post-Thorian fluff - aside from the half-dozen battles mentioned in the timeline - is essentially a single column.


And yes, the writers are Ward and Cruddace. That was one of the first things I noticed...

SabrX wrote:This is your chance to redeem your self Cruddace!

No. There will be no redemption for this codex unless the second part repudiates the nerf to seraphim and celestians' initaitive value.

SabrX wrote:Here's to Cruddace to make the wargear and unit points cost super cheap and effective. We've seen him make squads dirt cheap in Nid and IG codices, invoking the horde or spam mentality.

I must be reading a different Tyranid Codex.

I have no interest in sisters(aside from actually playing against something other than SMs), but I am a bit annoyed the GW split the codex between two WD to get it. Really GW? I know you're scrapping the bottom of the bucket to get people to buy the stupid thing, but do we really have to wait another month?

Sorry for the repeat question (Dunno if its been asked yet), I heard there was a leak of the white dwarf pages, can anyone tell me if thats true or not?

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Really GW? I know you're scrapping the bottom of the bucket to get people to buy the stupid thing, but do we really have to wait another month?

This issue was heavily focused on Fantasy. In fact, aside from usual "look new stuff!" for a couple of new Finecast DE, the Sisters article was the only 40K content in the entire magazine. The rest of it included rules for the new VC monster (which uses the same kit as the VC zombie dragon), lots of SoM stuff (including a battle report with VC vs Empire backed up by Bloodthirsters(!)), and a multi-page article talking about how to assemble and paint the new Dark Elf black dragon model. And, of course, the obligatory half-dozen pages on LotR. They no doubt could have shaved a page here and there from various articles, but there's a lot of new Fantasy stuff that's just come out (or about to come out; the Garden of Morr looks like a nice terrain piece if you need a graveyard/mausoleum, though I've no idea how much they'll pick from your pocket for it) so the focus makes sense from their PoV.

Sorry for the repeat question (Dunno if its been asked yet), I heard there was a leak of the white dwarf pages, can anyone tell me if thats true or not?

Dunno about leaks, but some of us have been able to purchase it already. If you've got a question, ask.

But it still means we got essentially nothing. What was it, ten pages at most? Maybe another ten, if they push it hard?

Melissia wrote:But it still means we got essentially nothing. What was it, ten pages at most? Maybe another ten, if they push it hard?

14 pages in total. Four fluff, ten rules.

Note that I'm not saying I like the low page count. I'm merely pointing out that it's hardly a surprise given GW's release focus of late.

Also note that next month is also likely to be heavily Fantasy-focused. Ogre Kingdoms get mentioned prominently as being one of the focuses of next month's WD (due out August 27).

And Sisters will probably get, at most, another ten pages from it.

Melissia wrote:And Sisters will probably get, at most, another ten pages from it.

Possibly.

And a battle report. They're going to get put through their paces against Orks.

Probably with a really weird and awkward build, too.

Melissia wrote:Probably with a really weird and awkward build, too.

It's a White Dwarf battle report. Would you expect anything else?



The real question (and the one that we won't know the answer to) is how many games they'll need to play before they get a convincing Sisters win for the article.

I wonder how many 6+ saves one squad will make...

"OH MY! Look at all those 6s! 20 sisters just passed their SoF saves! They must be really faithful!"

>.> *sigh* I see this actually happening :(

lol anyone notice on page 100 above the Exorcist tank it says Retributor with heavy bolter.....shes clearly holding a multimelta....

i think all this storm of magic hubbub is really cool (Even though i play wood elves in WHFB) but i was expecting a bit more for the sisters this issue..... lets hope next issue will be a bit more focused on them.

lonedrow02 wrote:lol anyone notice on page 100 above the Exorcist tank it says Retributor with heavy bolter.....shes clearly holding a multimelta....

i think all this storm of magic hubbub is really cool (Even though i play wood elves in WHFB) but i was expecting a bit more for the sisters this issue..... lets hope next issue will be a bit more focused on them.

I expect that they will be pushing the Minis next month if anything. GW wouldnt release rules without some intent to push product. Be it new plastics or Finecrap rerelease its gonna be with the playable half of the rules.

I for one am hoping for that 5 person plastic box. I want to make an female WOC army.

GBL wrote:I expect that they will be pushing the Minis next month if anything. GW wouldnt release rules without some intent to push product. Be it new plastics or Finecrap rerelease its gonna be with the playable half of the rules.

THERE ARE NO NEW MINIS. Yes, it's common knowledge that GW is working on new Sisters minis. But they are NOT coming out with this WD release. There are plenty of pictures of Sisters in this month's magazine, and every single one of them is one of the old models. If GW was going to release new miniatures in conjunction with the WD 'dex, then they would have used some of them in the pictures.

lets hope next issue will be a bit more focused on them.

Doubtful. It looks like the focus is going to be on the new Ogre Kingdoms book next month. So all Ogres, all the time - aside from the second half of the 'dex, the Sisters v Orks battle report, and the LotR stuff.

GBL wrote:I for one am hoping for that 5 person plastic box. I want to make an female WOC army.

Are you talking seriuous? Would you pay the price they will charge for this box? Serious, the reason i will not start a SoB are those rumors about "five girls in a box". i know SoB players are without plastic for years, but accept something like that for an army that is supposed to be more horde than elite, its just awfull...

But in the case you want some help: there is the Amazons of Wargames Factory, they are not incredible i know, but they can be kitbashed with Slanesh Demonesses and marines bitz, maybe for a win?

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

GBL wrote:I for one am hoping for that 5 person plastic box. I want to make an female WOC army.

Are you talking seriuous? Would you pay the price they will charge for this box? Serious, the reason i will not start a SoB are those rumors about "five girls in a box". i know SoB players are without plastic for years, but accept something like that for an army that is supposed to be more horde than elite, its just awfull...

But in the case you want some help: there is the Amazons of Wargames Factory, they are not incredible i know, but they can be kitbashed with Slanesh Demonesses and marines bitz, maybe for a win?

I want them for knights and warriors, not marauders. Find me a cheaper source of plastic boobfullplate then we can talk about money. I have looked and i cant find any. 5 to a box is better than nothing at all.

Eumerin wrote:
THERE ARE NO NEW MINIS. Yes, it's common knowledge that GW is working on new Sisters minis. But they are NOT coming out with this WD release. There are plenty of pictures of Sisters in this month's magazine, and every single one of them is one of the old models. If GW was going to release new miniatures in conjunction with the WD 'dex, then they would have used some of them in the pictures.

People say that, and im not betting on it either, but it wouldnt be too far out of their idiom to release them without any warning (now that they have shored up their security or so they claim) with the second half of the codex. In fact if their were miniatures with this release i would still expect them not to be in the first half of the WD codex, as they keep saying, advertising apparently hurts their bottom line.

Probably just failcast, but i remain mildly optimistic.

I was really looking forward to facing off against SOB, I've been playing this game for seven years and have only fought them twice.

Melissia wrote:Ah, this month's WD. Thanks.

Does it still do the rulebook's stupid "durr, only three major orders" bullgak?

One thing that annoys me regarding the Sororitas fluff is that writers only tend to focus upon a few Orders. Would it hurt GW to throw in some variety for once?

Also, Melissa, Necrosis and SabreX - good posts in general. Particularly agreed on the condescending attitudes remark earlier.

Melissia wrote:No. There will be no redemption for this codex unless the second part repudiates the nerf to seraphim and celestians' initaitive value.

Tunnel vision much?

Melissia wrote:We only have one tank, and one walker, both take up heavy support. The only vehicles we have outside of heavy support are transports.

This compared to Guard who gets vehicles in FA and HS, and Marines who get vehicles in Elites, FA, and HS.

I'm guessing from the layout that Penitent Engines will be moved to Elites, leaving Retributors and Exorcists as Heavy Support. Of course, that would also imply that Celestians have been moved to Troops... Still, I wouldn't even begin to compare a PE to a Dreadnought in toughness, and Sentinels are FAR more useful.

The new Engine is quite dangerous at short range and in melee combat. I find it interesting that they have two heavy flamers and not a twin-linked one.

They just can't deal with S6+ enemies (or rending) that swing at I4 or better. That's not all that common a stat set, although enemy Dreads and MCs tend to make them cry.

It's more that they're 11/11/10 and open topped. In a meta of heavy mech, people bring plenty of S7+ weapons to the table and that 6++ isn't exactly reliable. They're not fleet, so they can't Run and assault so they'll be shot to pieces before they can get close. It's the same reason people run transports for assault troopers: to make sure they GET to assault.

There is a lot of talk about "Five Sister box sets". I've read this rumor many times on quite a few forums, but how credible is it really? I just can't see GW releasing a set of five figures for an army that requires as many models as it does- jokes about GW doing idiotic things aside. For Grey Knights it made sense because of low model count, squad size, and cross-chapter armor homogeneity- for other forces, not so much. If they didn't make Wyches boxes of five (fits in a Venom, three boxes makes max squad size) I can't imagine they would box Sisters in groups of five.

If Jes Goodwin is involved in their design (which I understand is a reliable rumor), I'm confident they'll be worth the wait and will have more than five per box. If there is one person in GW I like it's him and I'd wager that he has some say-so in the design/packaging process.

The thing is, the SoB line has a huge cross of figures within its own army. There are no "Dominion" or "Celestian" models; they use regular Sisters.

SoB aren't really a horde, no matter how much people seem to want to make them. Celestians, Dominions and Retributors cap at 10 models / squad, but half of them tend to be non-"regular" sisters. That is, they carry special or heavy weapons. It would make more sense from GW's perspective to release a "Retributor" box of leader + 4 heavy weapons, a "Dominion" box of leader + 4 special weapons and then a box of 5 generic sisters to fill in the ranks.

It just means that regular squads are more expensive to fill out. Which is win-win for GW.

Good points streamdragon.

Read through parts of this thread and glanced at a couple of the summaries on sites re: what the first part actually says. Haven't spent the time to find the scan yet. Searching those kind of sites is kind of a bad idea on my work computer.

All that being said... I am still cautiously optimistic for a couple reasons.
- One, from what I've seen this is a shift in tactics and approach from previous codexes. It looks like this will be a lot of multi-unit synergies to achieve optimal results. Whether that works or not is up in the air... A lot of folks said that synergy would be the way Codex: Tyranids took over the world and that only half worked out.
- Two, faith is more reliable but less '30 seconds on the clock and we need a touchdown'. On average, my lists had about 7-9 faith points at 2k. Now, I will have 17.5 faith points over 5 turns. Do I need 3.5 faith points on turn one? Probably not, I usually wouldn't use any on the first two turns and would burn through 3 or 4 a turn on turn 4 or 5. Will I change my approach to better accomodate this? Yes.
- Three, Martyrdom is gone. I'm amazed that M isn't screaming from the rooftops about this one. (Okay, maybe I'm not amazed...) Martyrdom is, in fact, discouraged from what I saw. Keep your characters, they keep you more faithful.
- Four, points costs are not released. We are looking at a scan of something that is half-finished. I know that everyone is in OMG PANIC mode, but give it until we at least have the whole picture. If we went on pre-release leaks and the internet opinion than we'd have infinite coteaz armies, Tyranids would be OMG OP and rule all tournaments and blood angels would have that weird leak codex that everyone was convinced was legit.
A month after the second part has come out and people calm down, make some lists and play a little bit, we'll have an actual idea of what's up instead of the constant 'SLAP IN THE FACE! HOW DARE GW CHANGE MA SISTAS!'

In other words, everyone chill a bit and wait for the second part.

edit: Also, some cool stuff based off my quick review.
Invuls for everyone? Cool. I bet there's an act or wargear to increase SoF saves.
5+ to pass faith? So 1/3 chance without one of the modifiers. Really 1/2 chance because I should always have a sup.
What's Simulacrum do? Maybe give you rerolls or 2 dice per dice you use... Hmm.. This is going to be key.
Retry acts of faith? This is huge. Nothing like when I blew a key faith check before and had to just suck it up. Now it looks like I can try a couple times if I really need something.

We can be 99% sure that there won't be an act to increase SoF saves. The army rules section has already been released, and that would have been the place to release the Acts. Unit entries list their individual acts, with no "Generic acts" available to the army any more. That said, there is a small chance they'd release a wargear item that might grant access to a new Act. Frankly, I'd consider that craptastical design, but that might just be me.

I'd guess that the Simulacrum does in fact grant rerolls to Acts of Faith. The Seraphim used to count as having a Simulacrum, and now they just get to reroll Acts/Shield of Faith.

As to point costs: even a reduction in costs can't save an army with no teeth. It just means I have more things to gum at something with. Sure, my actual weapon options and such don't seem to have changed, but the loss of generic acts of faith hurts more than cheap troops will make up for. My troops can't get AP1 bolters anymore, or boost their strength to help wound Greenskins or run to make a crucial support charge. Now, all they can do is auto-rally. While nice, it means they broke in the first place which probably means things have gone to hell. It also can't make them Fearless like it used to, to avoid getting run down when I need them to hold just a bit longer. Basically, the adaptability of the army through Acts of Faith is completely gone.

And as for going "on pre-release leaks and internet opinion", this isn't pre-release. These aren't some rumor concocted by someone over at Bell of Seer Kittens, this is printed GW rules. They are official, for better or for (a lot) worse.

streamdragon wrote:We can be 99% sure that there won't be an act to increase SoF saves. The army rules section has already been released, and that would have been the place to release the Acts. Unit entries list their individual acts, with no "Generic acts" available to the army any more. That said, there is a small chance they'd release a wargear item that might grant access to a new Act. Frankly, I'd consider that craptastical design, but that might just be me.

I understand what you are saying and agree for the most part, but my point is that we can't be sure what is going to happen until it is done.

And as for going "on pre-release leaks and internet opinion", this isn't pre-release. These aren't some rumor concocted by someone over at Bell of Seer Kittens, this is printed GW rules. They are official, for better or for (a lot) worse.

You miss my point. The GK leak was official, as well and lead to all sorts of nastiness and speculation and silly builds (remember the 54 Jokaero stupidity?) Even with the rules in hand, it will take a month or so before we know whether things are OMG BROKEN OH NOES or OMG BROKEN OH YES.

Deep breaths.

streamdragon wrote:
As to point costs: even a reduction in costs can't save an army with no teeth. It just means I have more things to gum at something with.

I hardly think that the new sisters have no teeth. Without knowing the point costs, or even wargear and options, it is way too early to claim that the army is useless.

Did any of you play orks under the old codex? 9 points/model, they had choppas (max enemy save could be 4+, for the newer readers), sluggas, the same statline as current orks, and doubled their initiative when charging.

New codex took away choppas. It changed their charge bonus, from +2I, to +1I, +1S, ensuring that they swung after marines, instead of at the same time (Sound familiar Melissia?).

Sounds like a big nerf, right? Oh, yeah, but when you look at the points cost, they dropped to 6 points each, so you could field a full 33% more for the same points. And as a result, orks are still a competitive codex, even several years after their release. They're still notching up tournament finishes. A nicely priced base unit will do that for you.

That's what's going on here. A similar point-reduction for sisters would see them at 8 or 9 points each. And at 9 points for power armour, a bolter (not toothless, not to be underrated), and BS4 is a steal. Even moreso when the unit is capable of packing multiple meltas or flamers, and has a superior running around with an eviscerator.

What if repentia get the option to take a transport? Do we know that yet? If so, now you've got a vicious counter-attack unit that's going to mess up a lot of units, apparently for a much lower point-cost than previously.

Maybe none of that is true. The point is, it's unknown. It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid. But they're not right now. And almost certainly, you'll have to rethink how you play the army. Big deal, that's been the case with most of 5th ed. Move on.

Redbeard wrote:Maybe none of that is true. The point is, it's unknown. It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid. But they're not right now. And almost certainly, you'll have to rethink how you play the army. Big deal, that's been the case with most of 5th ed. Move on.

Great post, RB.

Can I sig this "It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid."?

Redbeard wrote:

streamdragon wrote:
As to point costs: even a reduction in costs can't save an army with no teeth. It just means I have more things to gum at something with.

I hardly think that the new sisters have no teeth. Without knowing the point costs, or even wargear and options, it is way too early to claim that the army is useless.

Did any of you play orks under the old codex? 9 points/model, they had choppas (max enemy save could be 4+, for the newer readers), sluggas, the same statline as current orks, and doubled their initiative when charging.

New codex took away choppas. It changed their charge bonus, from +2I, to +1I, +1S, ensuring that they swung after marines, instead of at the same time (Sound familiar Melissia?).

Sounds like a big nerf, right? Oh, yeah, but when you look at the points cost, they dropped to 6 points each, so you could field a full 33% more for the same points. And as a result, orks are still a competitive codex, even several years after their release. They're still notching up tournament finishes. A nicely priced base unit will do that for you.

That's what's going on here. A similar point-reduction for sisters would see them at 8 or 9 points each. And at 9 points for power armour, a bolter (not toothless, not to be underrated), and BS4 is a steal. Even moreso when the unit is capable of packing multiple meltas or flamers, and has a superior running around with an eviscerator.

What if repentia get the option to take a transport? Do we know that yet? If so, now you've got a vicious counter-attack unit that's going to mess up a lot of units, apparently for a much lower point-cost than previously.

Maybe none of that is true. The point is, it's unknown. It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid. But they're not right now. And almost certainly, you'll have to rethink how you play the army. Big deal, that's been the case with most of 5th ed. Move on.

What you are saying sounds reasonable, but... Sisters are too expensive to be bought as horde. I seriously doubt we will be getting new minatures along with this release so now the army costs even more to field. A squad of 10 Seraphim is $125.00 to field minimum without addding the hand flamers. Dominiions with 4 special weapons and a vet will be at least $62.50 (5 models) and Retributors will be 76.50 with 4 heavy weapons and a vet (5 models again) will be $76.50. The only main battle tank is $57.00. I seriously doubt the codex authors will be pricing out Sisters at 66% the points of a current sister. (which is about 8 points) I think a sqaud with a rhino, special weapon, a 'heavy weapon', and vet might get 40 point reduction overall. (of and thats $122.50 for that also).

Repentia in a transport aren't likley to do that hot since there will only be 10 models at most but it will be better than nothing. I also have taken a wait andd see attitude, but doubt that Sisters will be a horde army due the high favor in which the designers hold power armor. Look at Stormtrooper prices. People have already compared Sisters to Stormtroopers. Now I'm not saying they will be 18 points, but they sure won't stay 11 and probably won't even go down. In the grand scheme of things though the overall squad costs wil go down a bit (maybe 20% cheaper) thanks to cheaper Rhinos and weapons. I don't think Sisters will be keeping the max squad size of 20. In fact I bet the squad size will be 5 to 10.

The Grog wrote:The new Engine is quite dangerous at short range and in melee combat. I find it interesting that they have two heavy flamers and not a twin-linked one.

They just can't deal with S6+ enemies (or rending) that swing at I4 or better. That's not all that common a stat set, although enemy Dreads and MCs tend to make them cry.

Penitents were already quite dangerous in CC, that was never the reason nobody ever takes them. Like Arcos and Repentia, Penitents have no survivability, and therefore never get into CC... and you can't really control where they go. Nothing has really changed with them, yet they seem to be being talked about a lot. I've only ever even heard of one person that even owns a large number of Penitents, how many Sisters players do you think are going to run out to buy $300+ worth of a mediocre/bad Heavy Slot?

As for the point costs, yes, a dramatic decrease in points could make them competitive (as per the Ork example). However, Orks are designed to be a horde, and there is easy access to large amounts of Boyz (Starter Box). I have ~2500pts of Sisters, if that gets dropped down well below 2000pts then I'm forced to buy ~$300-$500 more old models just to be allowed to play my army in my area... and forget about any of the bigger tournies. Or I can dish out even less $ than that, finish out my GK, and have an army that actually works and has a real Codex. I love my Sisters, but they might just be on the painting table for the next long while. This release isn't just about points and playability, as a Sisters player you have a slightly different viewpoint of seeing every change as pts and $$$ because they're so damn expensive. I was expecting to maybe have to buy another unit or two, but not add 33% to the whole army. And the whole vibe of playing cheap Guard with Marine gear without all the Tanks, doesn't have the Sisters feel to it at all.

So the options are either 1) just a bad army (little/no point decreases), or 2) a decent army that cost$ way more that it even does today, or 3) work on a different army.

All values of rules and points cost aside, I am disappointed by the lack of anything new and exciting. It's just a rehashing of the codex into something that, personally, I find more bland than the current one. I was hoping for something new, more options, not fewer. I guess that was too much to hope for from a WD 'dex though. It's a damn shame.

Hmm. Looking at the new AoF rules. C: WH specifically said that you couldn't try an AoF more than once in a phase... WD does not say that.
- Canoness: Passion, +1I per successful faith test? Meh. Not awesome.
- Retributors: Multiples are useless here.
- Dominions: Can't reroll a reroll
- Seraphim: Ditto
- BS: Ditto
- Celestians: +1S per successful faith test? Hmm...
- Repentia: Single attack per passed faith test? Totally against the spirit, but hilarious.

andrewm9 wrote:
What you are saying sounds reasonable, but... Sisters are too expensive to be bought as horde.

Sisters have always been an expensive army. I dunno what to say other than that. I always preferred my sisters on foot. I love that picture from the 2nd ed codex, where you see a battle line of womens in armour.

Too expensive - Who decides that? I remember people saying it would be too expensive to run bloodcrushers, but people did it anyway.

I don't think Sisters will be keeping the max squad size of 20. In fact I bet the squad size will be 5 to 10.

Have they ever reduced max squad sizes?

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Penitents were already quite dangerous in CC, that was never the reason nobody ever takes them. Like Arcos and Repentia, Penitents have no survivability, and therefore never get into CC... and you can't really control where they go. Nothing has really changed with them, yet they seem to be being talked about a lot. I've only ever even heard of one person that even owns a large number of Penitents, how many Sisters players do you think are going to run out to buy $300+ worth of a mediocre/bad Heavy Slot?

Is that one person me? Anyway. The problem with penitents has always been their cost. They're survivable enough for a 50 point model. Problem is, they're currently 80 points. If running nine of them was 450 instead of 720 points, they'd be well worth it, even if none ever survived a fight.

As for the point costs, yes, a dramatic decrease in points could make them competitive (as per the Ork example). However, Orks are designed to be a horde, and there is easy access to large amounts of Boyz (Starter Box). I have ~2500pts of Sisters, if that gets dropped down well below 2000pts then I'm forced to buy ~$300-$500 more old models just to be allowed to play my army in my area... and forget about any of the bigger tournies.

When the new chaos codex came out, my 2000 point army dropped to under 1000. When the new ork codex came out, my old army (speed freeks) became unviable, and I had to retool as a horde. When the guard codex came out, every guard player I know dropped at least $300 on chimeras, and some more on valkyries.

Do you really think they write new codexes to balance the game?

GW writes codexes to sell models. This isn't going to change with sisters.

htj wrote:All values of rules and points cost aside, I am disappointed by the lack of anything new and exciting. It's just a rehashing of the codex into something that, personally, I find more bland than the current one. I was hoping for something new, more options, not fewer. I guess that was too much to hope for from a WD 'dex though. It's a damn shame.

Sigh...

This argument again. Of all the things that were lost in this update, variety was not it. I don't think anyone expected new units in a WD dex. That's what real dexes are for. That being said...

With the exception of the Inquisition, which was all moved to GK, the SOB/Ecclesiarchy part of the codex gained units (command squad and confessor), 2 new special characters (Uriah and Jacobus) and lost the Palantine (which we don't know is a loss until we see the points costs for Canoness).

New WD Dex (So Far)
Canoness
Command Squad (new unit type)
Rhino
Immolator
Retributor
Exorcist
Dominions
Seraphim
Battle Sisters
Celestians
Repentia
Penitent Engines
Confessor (New Unit)
Preacher
Battle Conclave

Characters
- Celestine
- Kyrinov (New Unit)
- Jacobus (New Unit)


Units from C: WH
Canoness
Palantine (Out)
Arcos
Celestian
Repentia
DCA
Rhino
Battle Sisters
Seraphim
Dominions
Retributors
Immolator
Exorcist
Penitent Engines

Characters:
- Celestine

OH Inq Lord (moved to GK)
Retinue (Not In)
IST (moved to GK)
Assassins (moved to GK)
OH Inq (moved to GK)
Chimera (moved to GK)
Land Raider (moved to GK)
Orbital Strikes (moved to GK)
Chair of Doom (moved to GK)

Sisters have to get within the 12" range to be at maximum efficiency but unless they wipe the enemy to the last they will get stuck in combat which they will either lose or get held up in long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Blessed ammo for everyone would help ws armour 4 and up but it's against MEQ that an army has to compete with to be effective. All Sisters bolters being S5 AP3? This would help a little bit but it still doesn't prevent the enemy from assaulting.

The only way I can see the new Sisters being effective is if they are allot cheaper, 8pt for a basic sister and 10pt for Seraphim and Celestians, and can carry more special weapons than any other army in 40k.
If/When the Sisters get within the 12" range they have to be able to whipe out whatever is there. Basically IG that can only do damage at 12" or lower.

I wouldn't be surprised if Celestians would be able to get Furious Charge and everyone can replace bolter with a power weapon. Their current stats with 2 power weapons at around 13pt is reasonable when Death Cult has superior stats at 15pt.

Kyrinov and Jacobus are not new units, they were in the 2E SoB codex. There were more SC in that on codex as well like "Saint Praxedes of Ophelia VII", Helena The Virtuous and Cardinal Armandus Helfire.
Difference is none of these has a model.
Everything in the WD book has a model, I'd bet money on that GW are trying to get rid of the last metal stock they have. They probably have more than they expected and are hoping this WD will sucker people into buying the overpriced metal models.

It's not an argument, pretre, it's a statement of disappointment.

I hate special characters and try not to field them, so Kyrinoc and Jacobus mean nothing to me. I enjoyed fielding Inquisition units alongside my Sisters army, and I also enjoyed inducted Guard when I was allowed them. Now, I do not have those options. So, yes, thank you, there are fewer options.

Redbeard wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Penitents were already quite dangerous in CC, that was never the reason nobody ever takes them. Like Arcos and Repentia, Penitents have no survivability, and therefore never get into CC... and you can't really control where they go. Nothing has really changed with them, yet they seem to be being talked about a lot. I've only ever even heard of one person that even owns a large number of Penitents, how many Sisters players do you think are going to run out to buy $300+ worth of a mediocre/bad Heavy Slot?

Is that one person me? Anyway. The problem with penitents has always been their cost. They're survivable enough for a 50 point model. Problem is, they're currently 80 points. If running nine of them was 450 instead of 720 points, they'd be well worth it, even if none ever survived a fight.

As for the point costs, yes, a dramatic decrease in points could make them competitive (as per the Ork example). However, Orks are designed to be a horde, and there is easy access to large amounts of Boyz (Starter Box). I have ~2500pts of Sisters, if that gets dropped down well below 2000pts then I'm forced to buy ~$300-$500 more old models just to be allowed to play my army in my area... and forget about any of the bigger tournies.

When the new chaos codex came out, my 2000 point army dropped to under 1000. When the new ork codex came out, my old army (speed freeks) became unviable, and I had to retool as a horde. When the guard codex came out, every guard player I know dropped at least $300 on chimeras, and some more on valkyries.

Do you really think they write new codexes to balance the game?

GW writes codexes to sell models. This isn't going to change with sisters.

Hell, if we got new models I'd probably be dropping $300+ on them too, but I can't justify dropping that much on decade old models that I already have a ton of. How many Sisters pulling the pin in a grenade with their teeth do I really need? I can already field a unit of just that sculpt. Or buy more than the 13 Sister Rhino chassis than I already have... bleh.

And you probably are the one with 9 Penitents I'm refering to, can't remember for sure. Met another guy that owned (but rarely used) 4 too, but thats about it.

The selling models point is the only reason I think the second half will have big point reductions, it fits. Doesn't mean I'm going to be buying more ancient models though.

MadCowCrazy wrote:Kyrinov and Jacobus are not new units, they were in the 2E SoB codex. There were more SC in that on codex as well like "Saint Praxedes of Ophelia VII", Helena The Virtuous and Cardinal Armandus Helfire.

Well of course they are from the 2E SOB. They are new compared to C:WH, the book I was clearly comparing to. If you really want to compare to C: SOB 2nd though...
We had:
Canoness
Missionary
Confessor
Preacher
BS Squad
Seraphim
Frateris
Rhino
Immolator
5 Special Characters.

Umm, so yeah. A lot more variety compared to the 2nd ed codex too. Should we compare to C: CA version now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

htj wrote:It's not an argument, pretre, it's a statement of disappointment.

I hate special characters and try not to field them, so Kyrinoc and Jacobus mean nothing to me. I enjoyed fielding Inquisition units alongside my Sisters army, and I also enjoyed inducted Guard when I was allowed them. Now, I do not have those options. So, yes, thank you, there are fewer options.

Fair enough. Sorry that you were disappointed. I didn't think anyone thought there would be more units in a WD codex and we knew that Inquisition have been on their way out for years now.
For an SOB codex, I think there are more options. If you wanted a combined inquisition codex, I'm sorry, that's been a dead man walking for a while.

Sorry you got squatted. :(

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Penitents were already quite dangerous in CC, that was never the reason nobody ever takes them. Like Arcos and Repentia, Penitents have no survivability, and therefore never get into CC... and you can't really control where they go. Nothing has really changed with them, yet they seem to be being talked about a lot. I've only ever even heard of one person that even owns a large number of Penitents, how many Sisters players do you think are going to run out to buy $300+ worth of a mediocre/bad Heavy Slot?

They used to average 4.5 attacks on the charge. The new ones average 5.5 attacks each on the charge, with ~2.4 extra (2.75 hits on average) from sustained assault. Their combat capacity roughly doubled. The problem is that their speed fell by about 40%. I have a nasty feeling their points cost won't change, making them still worthless, but they have the potential to be useful if their points properly reflect their fragility.

The problem with comparing this change to the Ork change is that Orks are good in close combat and/or come with good ranged assault weapons. Sisters have none of this, making it hard to bring their damage to bear and making them vulnerable to people just skipping through their preferred engagement range straight to close combat where they can't really fight back.

pretre wrote:Fair enough. Sorry that you were disappointed. I didn't think anyone thought there would be more units in a WD codex and we knew that Inquisition have been on their way out for years now.
For an SOB codex, I think there are more options. If you wanted a combined inquisition codex, I'm sorry, that's been a dead man walking for a while.

Sorry you got squatted. :(

I was kind of hoping that, it being the first Codex in such a long time, it would be something like an actual Codex. It was a small hope, but that doesn't make it any less disappointing. I really don't want to have to make yet another Coteaz army, but it's that now or leave the models to rot. All it would have taken, really, was frateris militia. But there you go. C'est la vie.

htj wrote:All it would have taken, really, was frateris militia. But there you go. C'est la vie.

Well, Zealots did finally get invalidated by this, since they say they can be used with C: WH, which is a shame.

What if they go crazy and the Force Org has 'Veteran Squad (see Codex: IG for details)' or some other wackiness. Wouldn't that really burn someone's bottom?
No way to know until we get both halves of the codex.

Redbeard wrote:
I hardly think that the new sisters have no teeth. Without knowing the point costs, or even wargear and options, it is way too early to claim that the army is useless.

Did any of you play orks under the old codex? 9 points/model, they had choppas (max enemy save could be 4+, for the newer readers), sluggas, the same statline as current orks, and doubled their initiative when charging.

New codex took away choppas. It changed their charge bonus, from +2I, to +1I, +1S, ensuring that they swung after marines, instead of at the same time (Sound familiar Melissia?).

Sounds like a big nerf, right? Oh, yeah, but when you look at the points cost, they dropped to 6 points each, so you could field a full 33% more for the same points. And as a result, orks are still a competitive codex, even several years after their release. They're still notching up tournament finishes. A nicely priced base unit will do that for you.

That's what's going on here. A similar point-reduction for sisters would see them at 8 or 9 points each. And at 9 points for power armour, a bolter (not toothless, not to be underrated), and BS4 is a steal. Even moreso when the unit is capable of packing multiple meltas or flamers, and has a superior running around with an eviscerator.

What if repentia get the option to take a transport? Do we know that yet? If so, now you've got a vicious counter-attack unit that's going to mess up a lot of units, apparently for a much lower point-cost than previously.

Maybe none of that is true. The point is, it's unknown. It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid. But they're not right now. And almost certainly, you'll have to rethink how you play the army. Big deal, that's been the case with most of 5th ed. Move on.

Firstly, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said this codex was "useless". It may be underpowered, it may be extremely bland, it may be almost completely devoid of feeling and fun, but it can still be used to play games, and heck, they can still beat Nids...

And yes, I'm currently an Ork player. The biggest complaint I heard about the new dex had less to do with Boyz, and more the loss of transports for all your Elite Ork mobs like Burna Boyz and Tankbustas. The looted wagon is (still) grossly bare bones compare to the old options, even if it is a bit more streamlined and easier to remember. I have no major complaints with the new book and actually play my Orks more than any of my other armies.

My point about lacking teeth was more that the army has completely lost its ability to adapt. I can't use Light of the Emperor to make my Sisters hold when I need them; if they break they get run down and no amount of rallying will help. I can't help my Dominions punch through heavier armor with their weapons, sure I can reroll wounds but they'll still be bouncing off of even 4+ armor for the most part. Using Faith at the right times was a major part of playing Sisters, and now it's basically a side thought that's been drastically reduced in usefulness and had all its teeth yanked with rusty pliers.

Line up this piece of gak "codex" next to anything from 5th edition, even Nids. Now try to tell me this army will still be competitive, or really even fun to play. The new dexes have been (almost) universally OTT with great options, heroics and feeling. This ... thing... is a rushed after thought. That much has already been basically admitted. They needed something to fill in while Necrons got back on schedule, and it looks like as per Matt Ward, Sisters ended up being the sacrificial lamb. Again.

pretre wrote:

Sigh...

This argument again. Of all the things that were lost in this update, variety was not it. I don't think anyone expected new units in a WD dex. That's what real dexes are for. That being said...

With the exception of the Inquisition, which was all moved to GK, the SOB/Ecclesiarchy part of the codex gained units (command squad and confessor), 2 new special characters (Uriah and Jacobus) and lost the Palantine (which we don't know is a loss until we see the points costs for Canoness).
>snip<

So... we gained units as long as we ignored that half the codex was moved over to Grey Knights then? I, for one, will lament the loss of my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as Arbites.

As to the units we "gained", they're things we could already field in another unit. They just moved them to where they should have been in the first place. The Sisters Dialogus and Sisters Hospitalers are, you guessed it, SISTERS. Why they were in an Inquisitorial Retinue instead of with ... Sisters... Well now they are in a "special" command squad. And the Ecclesiarchy stuff? Well, they're all options previously existing for a WH codex, just mashed into a new unit so we don't have to throw away our figures.

In the end, suggesting we "gained" unit options is disingenuous at best. They are options we previously had somewhere, now mashed into a single unit which costs some members their special rules, such as Death Cult Assassins losing Fearless and most importantly Infiltrate.

Creeping Dementia wrote:

And you probably are the one with 9 Penitents I'm refering to, can't remember for sure. Met another guy that owned (but rarely used) 4 too, but thats about it.

The selling models point is the only reason I think the second half will have big point reductions, it fits. Doesn't mean I'm going to be buying more ancient models though.

I would probably buy 3 boxes of Ork Killa Kanz from the thewarstore for $106.8 + shipping and handling rather than pay $315 for 9 Penitent Engines, which can only be bought via GW direct order. With a little conversion, Killa Kanz could pass off as Penitent Engines.

streamdragon wrote:Line up this piece of gak "codex" next to anything from 5th edition, even Nids. Now try to tell me this army will still be competitive, or really even fun to play. The new dexes have been (almost) universally OTT with great options, heroics and feeling. This ... thing... is a rushed after thought. That much has already been basically admitted. They needed something to fill in while Necrons got back on schedule, and it looks like as per Matt Ward, Sisters ended up being the sacrificial lamb. Again.

I don't think you can say this until you see the whole codex and actually get a chance to use it. Without points costs and the full list, you have no way of knowing whether it will be competitive yet. Wait until it is done before doom-and-glooming.

pretre wrote:So... we gained units as long as we ignored that half the codex was moved over to Grey Knights then? I, for one, will lament the loss of my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as Arbites.

You knew it was coming. Don't act surprised.

And the Ecclesiarchy stuff? Well, they're all options previously existing for a WH codex, just mashed into a new unit so we don't have to throw away our figures.

Confessors are new. I'll give you the rest.

In the end, suggesting we "gained" unit options is disingenuous at best.

SOB/Ecclesiarchy gained options. Inquisition lost options. I was very clear about that.

such as Death Cult Assassins losing Fearless and most importantly Infiltrate.

DCA were a lose/lose just like Arcos in the old codex. "Ooh, I can take 3 DCA for one slot and inflitrate them. Wait... They're each a KP? Nevermind." We'll have to wait and see if they are similarly useful in the new book or not.

Again, it is premature to judge the book since we only have half of it.


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SabrX wrote:I would probably buy 3 boxes of Ork Killa Kanz from the thewarstore for $106.8 + shipping and handling rather than pay $315 for 9 Penitent Engines, which can only be bought via GW direct order. With a little conversion, Killa Kanz could pass off as Penitent Engines.

That's a good idea. Add in a box of Flagellants (WHFB) and I bet you'd have some awesome PEs.

pretre wrote:

htj wrote:All it would have taken, really, was frateris militia. But there you go. C'est la vie.

Well, Zealots did finally get invalidated by this, since they say they can be used with C: WH, which is a shame.

What if they go crazy and the Force Org has 'Veteran Squad (see Codex: IG for details)' or some other wackiness. Wouldn't that really burn someone's bottom?
No way to know until we get both halves of the codex.

Heh, slim hope but you never know. This Codex over two months thing is really, really irritating.

Wouldnt a Concalve with Priest / Jacobus actually be a decent assault deterant and close combat unit. 9 DCA's with Jacobus, charging is 45 WS5 Initiative6 power weapon attacks at str4 with re-rolls to hit. Plus Jacobus' attacks. Add 5+ invul, FNP, stubborn and omg they better get a transport.

Or add some crusaders in there.

Depending on points ofc, seems like a nice close combat unit we never had before.

S'jet wrote:Wouldnt a Concalve with Priest / Jacobus actually be a decent assault deterant and close combat unit. 9 DCA's with Jacobus, charging is 45 WS5 Initiative6 power weapon attacks at str4 with re-rolls to hit. Plus Jacobus' attacks. Add 5+ invul, FNP, stubborn and omg they better get a transport.

Or add some crusaders in there.

Depending on points ofc, seems like a nice close combat unit we never had before.

We dont know if you will be able to take as large a squad as in the GK codex. The fluff says "Known as Battle Conclaves, these groups are necessarily small; anything larger would breach the prohibition of 'men under arms' as laid down in the Decree Passive."
To me this sounds like the max size will be 6 or some such, I'm probably just reading too much into things but it wouldn't surprise me as they can get bonuses based on the Ecclesiarch that's with them.

Good call, S'jet. Depending on points, that could be entertaining.

Anyone else notice that Seraphim fire two pistols? Who cares, right? If they can still buy inferno pistols and hand flamers in the same quantities and they are cheaper, you might see:
- 5 Seraphim, 2xDual Inferno Pistols. (4 Strength 8, AP 1 Melta Shots? Thanks!)
- 5 Seraphim, 2x Dual Hand Flamers (4 S3, AP6 Templates, reroll wounds... Meh, not as great.)


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Oh and super yay for finally getting frag, krak and bolt pistols standard. That's a big bonus.


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Ooh. Just noticed Dominions get Scouts!
Scouting Immolator with 5 girls with Meltas inside.
Move forward 12, pop smoke.
Win?


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Anyone notice that the Immolator has some fluff for 'Heavy bolters loaded with deadly incendiary rounds'?


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Repentia get fleet but also get rage. So they get more reliable extra movement but it is funnelled in a particular direction.

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread, but I feel the need to express my disappointment.

The faith system was the real enjoyable part of playing Sisters. Picking the right power, at the right time based on the situation and the number of models in the unit was a fun challenge.

Now I get a d6 number of points to spend each round and have a 1 in 3 (at worst) or a 2 in 3 (at best) chance that they'll actually activate. This is very disheartening. I'll be attempting faith powers less often and they'll successfully activate less often as well.

Looking at the rules for these, it would have made more sense to just remove the faith powers completely as using them strategically will be next to impossible.

I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

S'jet wrote:Wouldnt a Concalve with Priest / Jacobus actually be a decent assault deterant and close combat unit. 9 DCA's with Jacobus, charging is 45 WS5 Initiative6 power weapon attacks at str4 with re-rolls to hit. Plus Jacobus' attacks. Add 5+ invul, FNP, stubborn and omg they better get a transport.

Or add some crusaders in there.

Depending on points ofc, seems like a nice close combat unit we never had before.

It sounds great until you realize that they don't have grenades. In fact no member of the conclave has grenades except the priest. So if you blow up a transport to get to the juicy insides the conclave goes last. with some bad saves. Its telling that the best save in the unit may be the priest thats leading them with his Rosarius of 4++. Admittedly they won't be in that situation all the time but ask Tyranids how they like not having grenades on many of their units.

redstripe wrote:
I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

Maybe not right now, and I know it is cold comfort, but when (if?!?) the 'real' codex is released, I'm sure you'll be happy, and you'll be accused of Bandwagoning with the rest of 'em!

redstripe wrote:The faith system was the real enjoyable part of playing Sisters. Picking the right power, at the right time based on the situation and the number of models in the unit was a fun challenge.

Agreed, Faith was a lot of fun. It has gone through a number of iterations through the years though and this will not be the last one.

Now I get a d6 number of points to spend each round and have a 1 in 3 (at worst) or a 2 in 3 (at best) chance that they'll actually activate. This is very disheartening. I'll be attempting faith powers less often and they'll successfully activate less often as well.

It is a little more complicated than that. You can attempt the same power multiple times, we don't know what a Simulacrum does, you get more faith than you would before, you can't bank faith like you could before, etc. I think that you will be using faith much more often under the new system and will generally be able to get yourself to succeed. (SS is +1, so that's 4+ by default for almost every check.)

Looking at the rules for these, it would have made more sense to just remove the faith powers completely as using them strategically will be next to impossible.

That is a little over the top. Yes, the powers changed a bit. We don't know everything we need to know to make a decision yet. Play a couple games before declaring the world is over.

I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

Sorry to hear it... Maybe give it another go in a month when the rest of the article comes out.

Btw, if you don't want your sisters, feel free to mail them to me.

streamdragon wrote:
My point about lacking teeth was more that the army has completely lost its ability to adapt. I can't use Light of the Emperor to make my Sisters hold when I need them; if they break they get run down and no amount of rallying will help.

Because you've already seen the wargear section? Because you've already seen the army-wide rules? I haven't.

I can't help my Dominions punch through heavier armor with their weapons, sure I can reroll wounds but they'll still be bouncing off of even 4+ armor for the most part. Using Faith at the right times was a major part of playing Sisters, and now it's basically a side thought that's been drastically reduced in usefulness and had all its teeth yanked with rusty pliers.

Using faith will still be key to playing sisters. It just won't be the offensive key. People who learn to use the new rules will do fine.

Line up this piece of gak "codex" next to anything from 5th edition, even Nids. Now try to tell me this army will still be competitive, or really even fun to play.

You're just utterly missing the point. You Do Not Know The Point Costs Do you need me to make the text flash before you figure that out?

If a sister, with power armour and a bolter, costs two points and can be taken in squads of 50, how is that uncompetitive. Yes, that's an absurdity, but you cannot judge how competitive a force is unless you know how many points it costs to field them. You simply cannot. If I can drop 60 bolters on the table, I don't even need to get to rapid fire range to be dangerous. And if I can use one squad as bubble-wrap, knowing they'll lose and run, I can take a whole mess of shots at whatever charged them the next turn. In fact, that's more reliable than a Stubborn 9Ld to stay in combat.

The new dexes have been (almost) universally OTT with great options, heroics and feeling.

You haven't even seen the options yet.

Like I said before, you -might- be right. And if it is, I'll join you in bemoaning how awful it is. I've got a lot of sisters myself; they were my first army. But your hysterics are premature. They smack of a player who is unwilling to adapt to new tactics and strategies, and unwilling to have even a little patience to see the whole picture before throwing a tantrum.

Alpharius wrote:

redstripe wrote:
I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

Maybe not right now, and I know it is cold comfort, but when (if?!?) the 'real' codex is released, I'm sure you'll be happy, and you'll be accused of Bandwagoning with the rest of 'em!

Now who's making comments before seeing the whole thing? This could be codex: tyranids all over again!


(in case it's not clear, this is a joke post.)

Redbeard wrote:
Because you've already seen the wargear section? Because you've already seen the army-wide rules? I haven't.

Using faith will still be key to playing sisters. It just won't be the offensive key. People who learn to use the new rules will do fine.

We've seen the army wide rules. They always lead the unit description/background section and we have that. What we are missing is gear, points, and options.

As for faith, it won't be the offensive key. Or the defensive key. Or the key to much of anything as it is generally weak, and worse, generally unreliable. I believe that Acts will have to be treated as happy accidents rather than tools in a tactical plan.

Prepare to give this WD stinker a wide berth

The Grog wrote:What we are missing is gear, points, and options.

Oh, just that?

As for faith, it won't be the offensive key. Or the defensive key. Or the key to much of anything as it is generally weak, and worse, generally unreliable. I believe that Acts will have to be treated as happy accidents rather than tools in a tactical plan.

You really can't make that determination yet. Right now, most faith checks are on a 4+, 3+ with casualties. Wargear is going to be key. Specifically?

Simulacrum Imperialis is going to be key. Laud Hailer is going to be key. What if Laud Hailers are +2 to Faith rolls within 12"? What if Simulacrums are +1 to all faith rolls for the unit or a reroll for the unit? What if each Simulacrum gives you +1 faith per turn, in addition to your d6?

We just do not know. So stop saying it is the end of the world until we do. If SI and LH are just fluff and give no benefit, we will all wail and gnash with you. Until then, chill a bit.

The Grog wrote:The new Engine is quite dangerous at short range and in melee combat.

It's also slower.

Redbeard wrote:Tunnel vision much?

Would you say the same thing to Marine players who were mad at GW if they hypothetically nerfed them to T3?

pretre wrote:- Three, Martyrdom is gone. I'm amazed that M isn't screaming from the rooftops about this one. (Okay, maybe I'm not amazed...) Martyrdom is, in fact, discouraged from what I saw. Keep your characters, they keep you more faithful.

Why would I? I've always despised the Martyrdom rules. It encourages people to throw away faithful units.

pretre wrote:This argument again. Of all the things that were lost in this update, variety was not it. I don't think anyone expected new units in a WD dex.

While I don't entirely disagree with you, it's also worth noting that this is also the same issue of White Dwarf that provided a brand new monster to Vampire Counts. VC received a new Zombie Dragon boxed set, and the set can alternatively be built as a creature called a 'Terrorgeist'. The rules for the terrorgeist are in the new White Dwarf.

So this issue did have new stuff in it... just not for the Codex.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:- Three, Martyrdom is gone. I'm amazed that M isn't screaming from the rooftops about this one. (Okay, maybe I'm not amazed...) Martyrdom is, in fact, discouraged from what I saw. Keep your characters, they keep you more faithful.

Why would I? I've always despised the Martyrdom rules. It encourages people to throw away faithful units.

Screaming in happiness. I was surprised you weren't happy. Silly me.

Redbeard wrote:
Because you've already seen the wargear section? Because you've already seen the army-wide rules? I haven't.

Using faith will still be key to playing sisters. It just won't be the offensive key. People who learn to use the new rules will do fine.

You're just utterly missing the point. You Do Not Know The Point Costs Do you need me to make the text flash before you figure that out?

If a sister, with power armour and a bolter, costs two points and can be taken in squads of 50, how is that uncompetitive. Yes, that's an absurdity, but you cannot judge how competitive a force is unless you know how many points it costs to field them. You simply cannot. If I can drop 60 bolters on the table, I don't even need to get to rapid fire range to be dangerous. And if I can use one squad as bubble-wrap, knowing they'll lose and run, I can take a whole mess of shots at whatever charged them the next turn. In fact, that's more reliable than a Stubborn 9Ld to stay in combat.

You haven't even seen the options yet.

Like I said before, you -might- be right. And if it is, I'll join you in bemoaning how awful it is. I've got a lot of sisters myself; they were my first army. But your hysterics are premature. They smack of a player who is unwilling to adapt to new tactics and strategies, and unwilling to have even a little patience to see the whole picture before throwing a tantrum.

1. Yes, we HAVE seen the army wide rules! That's the page that explains how to use Acts of Faith, what Shield of Faith is and how to generate Faith. The page is literally labeled "Army Special Rules"! What more are you expecting? A giant section in the Wargear titled "Items that completely and utterly change the previous page on 'Army Special Rules' "? They're right there, in black and ... slightly pinkish.

2. Faith is pathetic now. There are no two ways about it. You get d6 points per turn, and you can only use them during YOUR turn. So no Fearless Celestians when your opponent charges you and tears you a new one. No bonus strength or bonus initiative or anything. Faith basically HAS to be used offensively, because the rules prevent any sort of defensive use beyond auto-rallying your Battle Sisters (assuming they didn't get caught in a sweeping advance if falling back from melee.)

3. I am well aware I don't know the points cost. You can repeat that statement as many times as you like, and it will still not change certain elements about the army. It won't make Faith any better. It might make a unit cheaper to field, but that doesn't improve it's punching power at all. All it means is I get to plunk down MORE units, despite having the SAME amount of Faith points (the army's only real mechanic outside of the generic) to spend.

4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given. It is not unreasonable or hysterical at all to look at what we have and say "we just suffered with this new 'dex." True, we haven't seen the wargear or points costs yet. True, there may still be items that make up for some of the shortcomings of the list presented. We can look and see that, no matter how cheap they may get, Penitent Engines will still be uncontrollable and fragile, thanks to Rage and Open-Topped F11. We can look at Battle Sisters and say "Man, their offensive power went down, thanks to the loss of Divine Guidance". We can look at Celestians and Seraphim and say "Man, the downgrade to I3 stinks." None of this is hysterics, and when you have more and more of these "Man, ..." any rational mind is able to step back and say "Man, this army just got a bit weaker." Is there always the option of some last minute wargear piece that makes the whole thing OP? Sure. Is there always the option we'll see "Book of St. Sheenus - 5 pts. You win." sure. But are you really going to count on them, when what we've seen so far is so pathetic? I don't.

pretre wrote:You really can't make that determination yet. Right now, most faith checks are on a 4+, 3+ with casualties. Wargear is going to be key. Specifically?

Yes we can. The acts of faith in general are pretty worthless now.

What, you want to make Celestians S4 and fearless? Too bad they're still just gonna lose combat to any serious assault unit take extra casualties because of fearless. And no unit other than Battle Sisters can use Light of the Emperor-- no unit other than Retributors can use Divine Guidance. Only units with a Canoness attached can use The Passion, and it's inferior to what it used to be.

Battle Sisters are now offensively weaker than they were before. Thus why people are saying they no longer have any teeth.

Melissia wrote:

The Grog wrote:The new Engine is quite dangerous at short range and in melee combat.

It's also slower.

It also has rage now, real rage, which sucks. It also has 2 x Heavy Flamer instead of 2xFlamers that count as 1 HF, which is good. It also has a 6++ and an extra attack, which is good. It also generates extra attacks from unsaved wounds, which is also good.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:You really can't make that determination yet. Right now, most faith checks are on a 4+, 3+ with casualties. Wargear is going to be key. Specifically?

Yes we can. The acts of faith in general are pretty worthless now.

What, you want to make Celestians S4 and fearless? Too bad they're still just gonna lose combat to any serious assault unit take extra casualties because of fearless. And no unit other than Battle Sisters can use Light of the Emperor-- no unit other than Retributors can use Divine Guidance. Only units with a Canoness attached can use The Passion, and it's inferior to what it used to be.

Battle Sisters are now offensively weaker than they were before. Thus why people are saying they no longer have any teeth.

Also double check the rules on Faith:

Faith Points
At the start of each of your Movement phases, you generate d6 Faith Points.
...
Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of your turn are lost.

So no Faith during your opponents turn. No Cannoness boosted I and Hatred. No Celestian boosted S and Fearless. No Battle Sisters rerolling '1's to hit. No Repentia getting to strike back despite dying. No Faith, nothing.

streamdragon wrote:4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given. It is not unreasonable or hysterical at all to look at what we have and say "we just suffered with this new 'dex." True, we haven't seen the wargear or points costs yet. True, there may still be items that make up for some of the shortcomings of the list presented. We can look and see that, no matter how cheap they may get, Penitent Engines will still be uncontrollable and fragile, thanks to Rage and Open-Topped F11. We can look at Battle Sisters and say "Man, their offensive power went down, thanks to the loss of Divine Guidance". We can look at Celestians and Seraphim and say "Man, the downgrade to I3 stinks." None of this is hysterics, and when you have more and more of these "Man, ..." any rational mind is able to step back and say "Man, this army just got a bit weaker." Is there always the option of some last minute wargear piece that makes the whole thing OP? Sure. Is there always the option we'll see "Book of St. Sheenus - 5 pts. You win." sure. But are you really going to count on them, when what we've seen so far is so pathetic? I don't.

Under Battle Sister Squad:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for a Melta or Flamer for 5 pts each.

Under Celestians:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for BP/Blessed Weapon for 10 pts each.

There. I just made them well worth it. We have no way of knowing until we get the rest of the codex.

So? All of that requires it actually get into close range. Being slower, it can't do that as easily.

As a side note: People need to grow up and stop accusing people who don't like what they see of panicking, or of hysteria, or of thinking the sky is falling. Frankly you're breaking rule number one here. Yes, you too redbeard.

streamdragon wrote:
Also double check the rules on Faith:

Faith Points
At the start of each of your Movement phases, you generate d6 Faith Points.
...
Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of your turn are lost.

So no Faith during your opponents turn. No Cannoness boosted I and Hatred. No Celestian boosted S and Fearless. No Battle Sisters rerolling '1's to hit. No Repentia getting to strike back despite dying. No Faith, nothing.

Saw that and it is disappointing. But we really don't know what else is in there. Again, wait for the doomsaying.

pretre wrote:

streamdragon wrote:4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given. It is not unreasonable or hysterical at all to look at what we have and say "we just suffered with this new 'dex." True, we haven't seen the wargear or points costs yet. True, there may still be items that make up for some of the shortcomings of the list presented. We can look and see that, no matter how cheap they may get, Penitent Engines will still be uncontrollable and fragile, thanks to Rage and Open-Topped F11. We can look at Battle Sisters and say "Man, their offensive power went down, thanks to the loss of Divine Guidance". We can look at Celestians and Seraphim and say "Man, the downgrade to I3 stinks." None of this is hysterics, and when you have more and more of these "Man, ..." any rational mind is able to step back and say "Man, this army just got a bit weaker." Is there always the option of some last minute wargear piece that makes the whole thing OP? Sure. Is there always the option we'll see "Book of St. Sheenus - 5 pts. You win." sure. But are you really going to count on them, when what we've seen so far is so pathetic? I don't.

Under Battle Sister Squad:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for a Melta or Flamer for 5 pts each.

Under Celestians:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for BP/Blessed Weapon for 10 pts each.

There. I just made them well worth it. We have no way of knowing until we get the rest of the codex.

Melissia wrote:So? All of that requires it actually get into close range. Being slower, it can't do that as easily.

Sure. That's a given. Sisters are still a short range army.

As a side note: People need to grow up and stop accusing people who don't like what they see of panicking, or of hysteria, or of thinking the sky is falling. Frankly you're breaking rule number one here. Yes, you too redbeard.

LMFAO. So when accusing people of not Being Polite, you tell them they are being immature... Nicely done.

Maybe it isn't breaking Rule #1, because you are actually panicking and acting like the sky is falling when we only have half a book. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's why no one is getting hit with the banhammer for asking for some calmer tones until we see the points and wargear sections.

pretre wrote:Maybe it isn't breaking Rule #1, because you are actually panicking and acting like the sky is falling

No.

pretre wrote:Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's why no one is getting hit with the banhammer for asking for some calmer tones until we see the points and wargear sections.

Actually, the mods already have posted a warning in this therad.

You're not being "calm", you're being snidely condescending, and disrespectful.

streamdragon wrote:

pretre wrote:
Under Battle Sister Squad:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for a Melta or Flamer for 5 pts each.
There. I just made them well worth it. We have no way of knowing until we get the rest of the codex.

Facepalm all you want, but you don't know. Without the points costs, anything could happen. 8 points a piece with 5 upgrades per squad of 5 would certainly make a lot of people stop worrying about just having one AoF per squad.

pretre wrote:

streamdragon wrote:
Also double check the rules on Faith:

Faith Points
At the start of each of your Movement phases, you generate d6 Faith Points.
...
Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of your turn are lost.

So no Faith during your opponents turn. No Cannoness boosted I and Hatred. No Celestian boosted S and Fearless. No Battle Sisters rerolling '1's to hit. No Repentia getting to strike back despite dying. No Faith, nothing.

Saw that and it is disappointing. But we really don't know what else is in there. Again, wait for the doomsaying.

To be more useful than my last post:

Again: if the solution to the army's problem is "wargear will fix it", then that doesn't really change the issues at hand. IG don't need a Vox to use Orders, it just makes it easier to do. SM don't need anything for ATSKNF, they just get it in its working form. Nid units aren't forced to purchase a biomorph just to use Synapse.

You seem to keep thinking Wargear and point costs will drastically change the plethora of nerfs that have been showcased. If you'd like to keep your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalala it's going to be okay", then I don't know what else to say. Your last ... "fix" ... was so unrealistic I was literally at a loss for a response.

streamdragon wrote:Again: if the solution to the army's problem is "wargear will fix it", then that doesn't really change the issues at hand. IG don't need a Vox to use Orders, it just makes it easier to do. SM don't need anything for ATSKNF, they just get it in its working form. Nid units aren't forced to purchase a biomorph just to use Synapse.

No, but if you just saw the Army rules section and didn't see that IG could buy Lascannons, and Heavy Weapons etc in 3s, blah blah blah, like you can in the points cost section, you might think they aren't as good as they are. In fact, Infantry Platoons as a whole look pretty lackluster until you get to the army list section and see everything that they can get and the costs.

You seem to keep thinking Wargear and point costs will drastically change the plethora of nerfs that have been showcased. If you'd like to keep your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalala it's going to be okay", then I don't know what else to say. Your last ... "fix" ... was so unrealistic I was literally at a loss for a response.

It was supposed to be unrealistic. It was an example. I don't really think that's what's going to be there but guess what. I don't know. Neither do you. We won't know until the 2nd half comes out and tells us.

The problem, Pretre, isn't that we can't get enough Acts of Faith off.

The problem is the new Acts of Faith suck. As I noted, why would you EVER want to use the Celestian one? Anywhere that it's beneficial to use said Act of faith, the Celestians would already have won combat even without it. Anywhere else, it's more likely to harm the squad than help. Why can't Seraphim regroup after being routed? They're assault veterans, they shouldn't be more likely to run off the table than Battle Sisters. Why can't Battle Sisters use Divine Guidance anymore? That's where the Act of Faith would be most useful!

Etc. Frankly, I could withstand the incredibly stupid, poorly designed d6-based system if the Acts of Faith were actually useful.

What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

Melissia wrote:The problem, Pretre, isn't that we can't get enough Acts of Faith off.

I'm still unsure about this. 3.5 on average is still a lot of faith per turn. I never used to use more than 4 in any given turn. I'll have to see how it plays out.

The problem is the new Acts of Faith suck.

Arguable. I haven't used them yet.

As I noted, why would you EVER want to use the Celestian one?

+1 Str and Fearless?
Assaulty Squad in front of your lines that you just knocked out of its transport. You don't want it to assault X but don't have enough shooting to kill it off. You pop off that act of faith and charge. You live and they don't get to assault their choice because you're sticking until at least their turn.

Why can't Seraphim regroup after being routed?

Because they didn't get that act of faith. Is this a trick question?

Why can't Battle Sisters use Divine Guidance anymore?

Because they didn't get that act of faith. Is this a trick question?

What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

Add a Canoness.


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Serious answers for why X didn't get X... Because their role in the list has changed?

The designers decided that having every unit in the army be a tarpit wasn't what they wanted?

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:The problem, Pretre, isn't that we can't get enough Acts of Faith off.

I'm still unsure about this. 3.5 on average is still a lot of faith per turn. I never used to use more than 4 in any given turn. I'll have to see how it plays out.

I said "Isn't." I can see you'll get the opportunity to use Acts of Faith frequently enough. The problem is that the Acts of Faith suck, so you wouldn't really WANT to use them.

pretre wrote:Arguable. I haven't used them yet.

I've played enough that I don't necessarily need to.

pretre wrote:Assaulty Squad in front of your lines that you just knocked out of its transport. You don't want it to assault X but don't have enough shooting to kill it off. You pop off that act of faith and charge.

Then you lose combat and take extra wounds, possibly losing the entire squad because of it.

pretre wrote:Because they didn't get that act of faith. Is this a trick question?

You're not answering the right question. Are you doing this on purpose?

What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

Add a Canoness.

Look at what some units do get.

Seraphim get wound rerolls and BS get hit rerolls. So BS get to be quasi-BS5 for a faith point and Seraphim get to make sure all those templates they drop on you do their wounds.

I really think people are underestimating the fact that faith is every turn, 3.5 powers a turn. You want to use it all the time.

Plus, and I know I might have said this before, we really don't know what else we're missing.


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Melissia wrote:I said "Isn't."

I failed to read, my bad. lol

I've played enough that I don't necessarily need to.

Oh come on. You played enough of another army list to say that this new army list, that you haven't even seen in its entirety is bad. Pull the other one.

Then you lose combat and take extra wounds, possibly losing the entire squad because of it.

And if you weren't fearless, you lost combat and got swept. This gives you a better chance.

You're not answering the right question. Are you doing this on purpose?

Two answers. 1) I learned it from watching you. 2) I answered them for real below that.

So they want to make the army suck ass instead?

I don't know. I guess we'll find out when the second half comes out.


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Not every unit is a tarpit. Previously, they'd have to use ALL the Acts of faith to make just ONE unit into a tarpit. Now? No unit is a tarpit. All units get rolled over in close combat.

You had to use 1 act of faith each turn to make a unit a tarpit. Invuln with BoSL. That made every unit in the army below 7 models a tarpit. Not sure what C:WH you were using.

pretre wrote:Seraphim get wound rerolls and BS get hit rerolls. So BS get to be quasi-BS5 for a faith point and Seraphim get to make sure all those templates they drop on you do their wounds.

On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test. So not only are Seraphim far inferior in close combat now, they're also less mobile too, only able to get Hit and Run off half the time instead of all of the time. And don't say Canoness-- no, that would mean they couldn't Hit and Run at all, nevermind the fact that you can't use Acts of Faith at the beginning of an opponent's phases anymore.

On Battle Sister: So what if they get re-rolled to-hits? That's still inferior to Divine Guidance in my view. A re-rolled bolter wound still has to deal with FNP and armor saves. AP1 bolter wounds don't.

pretre wrote:And if you weren't fearless, you lost combat and got swept. This gives you a better chance.

Somethign they wouldn't have to deal with if the army list didn't suck and let them have Stubborn instead like they used to.

pretre wrote:I don't know. I guess we'll find out when the second half comes out.

As contradictory as it might be given the army in question, I don't believe in waiting for miracles.

pretre wrote:You had to use 1 act of faith each turn

Phase. Each assault phase you'd have to use it. So two for every game turn.

Melissia wrote:On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test.

According to what you have seen so far. If they're 12 points a piece and can upgrade 1 out of every 3, then they aren't quite as inferior. You're going off on two factors when you don't see the whole picture. Maybe you're right and they are strictly inferior, but we won't know until the next WD is out.

So not only are Seraphim far inferior in close combat now, they're also less mobile too, only able to get Hit and Run off half the time instead of all of the time.

Purity Seals: 5 points, Get +1 to your Hit and Run roll. Quite possible that they are entirely nerfed with nothing redeeming coming, but also possible that they are buffed.

nevermind the fact that you can't use Acts of Faith at the beginning of an opponent's phases anymore.

That does suck, but we'll see how it shakes out in the long run.

On Battle Sister: So what if they get re-rolled to-hits? That's still inferior to Divine Guidance in my view. A re-rolled bolter wound still has to deal with FNP and armor saves. AP1 bolter wounds don't.

Sure, I'll miss DG. It sucks that we don't have it anymore. A little early to give up on the whole army until we see the rest though.


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Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:And if you weren't fearless, you lost combat and got swept. This gives you a better chance.

Somethign they wouldn't have to deal with if the army list didn't suck and let them have Stubborn instead like they used to.

Gee, if only there was a wargear item that Sisters traditionally got that could give them stubborn. Oh well...

pretre wrote:You had to use 1 act of faith each turn

Phase. Each assault phase you'd have to use it. So two for every game turn.

There's a difference between possible and likely. You keep giving dumb examples that fall into the former but are extremely far from the latter. I am not going to dignify them by responding specifically to each and every one.

Melissia wrote:There's a difference between possible and likely. You keep giving dumb examples that fall into the former but are extremely far from the latter. I am not going to dignify them by responding specifically to each and every one.

Oh, so my speculation is 'dumb' and your speculation is good. Got it. Keep it classy, M.

My speculation is just speculation. I'm giving examples. Guess what, I'm not a codex writer so chances of me being right are near 0. But my point stands, any number of things can happen in the second half of the codex. We don't know until it comes out.

I agree with some, it's very premature to pass judgement before seeing the actual army list or wargear descriptions. If celestians are troops, 5-10 per squad, 12 points a peice and 2 specials per 5 and access to a TL-MM immolater for 75 points then they will be amazing for mech msu, I3 or no. I don't think that is reaching at all considering other 5ed codexes.

pretre wrote:Oh, so my speculation is 'dumb' and your speculation is good.

If I speculated that a Martian Muslim named Hassif Bin Laden who ran on the platform of "everyone will be enslaved to my will!" would be the next president of the United States of America, that would indeed be dumb speculation.

Yours is on average roughly equivalent to that. Very unrealistic expectations of what is to come.

On the whole tarpit thing, Sisters do not have a tarpit unit anymore. Seraphim definitely aren't it in any case with some improvement to Hit and Run! or the ability to improve their initiative on the oppoenents turn. So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

winterman wrote:I agree with some, it's very premature to pass judgement before seeing the actual army list or wargear descriptions. If celestians are troops, 5-10 per squad, 12 points a peice and 2 specials per 5 and access to a TL-MM immolater for 75 points then they will be amazing for mech msu, I3 or no. I don't think that is reaching at all considering other 5ed codexes.

I agree. We'll have to wait and see.


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andrewm9 wrote:On the whole tarpit thing, Sisters do not have a tarpit unit anymore.

That we aware of. Books may still be available and sisters may be cheap enough to make bubble wrap squads. We don't know.

Seraphim definitely aren't it in any case with some improvement to Hit and Run! or the ability to improve their initiative on the oppoenents turn. So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score.

Interesting to know that I5 thing. Wasn't aware of that.

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

I wonder: Could we possibly avoid using words like "dumb" to criticize other people's points? I mean, simply saying something is "dumb" isn't very smart in and of itself. A smarter reply would be to explain why you think another user's post is "dumb." Of course, that presumes that you actually want to have a discussion here (on the forum) rather than just wading in, throwing around a lot of opinions regardless of how insulting they might be, and otherwise making a spectacle of yourself. But in that case, you'd be a troll and be breaking Dakka's rules. You see, even when you technically attack the argument and not the poster you can still obviously be attacking the user. It's obvious to that user, it's obvious to other users, and it's obvious to moderators. Oh, and it will get your account suspended as per the rules you agreed to abide by when you signed up.

On that same note, calling someone's thoughts "hysterics," claiming that their opinion is tantamount to saying "the sky is falling," or dismissing them as being in "panic mode" are all pretty rude, too. I know we all want to be pithy but this kind of stuff is pretty well flamebait and can also get your account suspended.

So, that's just a thought guys. I'll leave you to it.

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Crisis suits have Hit and Run? How did I miss that?

On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test.

Faith is the only thing that negatively affects serpahim in my opinion. I3 is not that big a deal when you kill 3-4 marines just from pre-assault shooting without faith. With faith attempt serpahim should kill on average 5 marines.

Seriously, losing a couple of S3 attacks from early casualties is minor compared to the damage they can do pre-assault. Assuming 10 man MEq assault squad with fist and meltas (typical) vs 10 seraphim with 2 inferno and eviscerator (likey same cost as the asm if rumors are true), seraphim can easily go toe to toe with them due to pre-assault shooting -- and will more likely push combat or win.

pretre wrote:
Crisis suits have Hit and Run? How did I miss that?

It's an upgrade. . .that no one ever takes

Indeed, it's called Vectored retro-thrusters. It's popular among "Ninja Tau" players.

Posting from my phone, so apologies for the lack of a quote. While it is possible for the next section to contain anything, I suppose the main difference Pretre between our schools of thought is that you seem to ne looking at this new list in a vaccuum, without any precedant or existing examples. Some of us, however, are not. You are correct in that the new pages could contain anything, but realistically we can expect some things and exclude others. Looking at the IG infantry platoon entry isn't a perfect picture, but I can combine what I see with what I know (cheap cost, access to certain special/heavy weapons) and get a picture extremely close to reality. It is no different here. You can keep saying "wargear might change it" until you're blue in the face but you've got little to nothing to base that on while the existing books already support my side.

I like what I've read so far and can't wait for part 2 but still won't play with them until its all out. I mainly just want new sisters in plastic, dunno why they aren't releasing any with the new WD dex.

streamdragon wrote: You can keep saying "wargear might change it" until you're blue in the face but you've got little to nothing to base that on while the existing books already support my side.

Okay, you want realistic guesses. Here they are:
- Book of St Lucius - Stubborn for the unit. Based on existing wargear in C:WH.
- Simulacrum Imperialis - Roll one extra dice for faith checks on this unit. Based on existing wargear in C:WH.
- Laud Hailer - All enemy units within 12" are -1 Ld. Multiple Laud Hailers are cumulative. Extrapolated from existing wargear in C:WH.

Below are based in the way books are trending already in 5th.
Battle Sisters, 10pts each with built in F,K and Bolt Pistols. 1 Special per 5. 35 pt Rhinos, 45 pt Immos with 25 pt upgrade for MM.
Dominions, 10 pts each with built in F,K and BP. 4 specials per 5. Melta Bombs purchaseable. 35 pt Rhinos, 45 pt Immos with 25 pt upgrade for MM.
etc so on.

Those are all kind of big deals that could go a long way towards softening the blow of changes in faith and making the list effective. Will that be what's in the 2nd half? No idea, guess we'll have to wait to find out.

So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Mawloc has hit and run with I4.
A single tau suit can have I3 hit and run via a special suit upgrade.
(Arguably) a marine unit getting hit and run from dante or khan would need to test on I4.

"Sisters are done until a true codex comes out. The WD codex has failed miserably."

Attributed to....

-Deadshane
Vet 40k player since Rogue Trader (just a tad familiar with 40k)
Veteran Sisters player of every Sisters codex since then(extremely familiar w/sisters)
2007 Adepticon RTT undefeated top sisters player(I know what I'm doing when I put them on the table)

ALSO

-Stormboy97
Most GT overall wins in the United States
Avid sisters player

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Ok I stand corrected. Crisis suits have other options for leaving combat as well at the moment with ejection systems that are automatic right?

Deadshane1 wrote:"Sisters are done until a true codex comes out. The WD codex has failed miserably."

I appreciate the depth of your experience, but I think you're being a bit premature as the whole codex isn't even out yet.

andrewm9 wrote:

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Ok I stand corrected. Crisis suits have other options for leaving combat as well at the moment with ejection systems that are automatic right?

Only works against shooting and you basically get a 1 wound no save fire warrior in place of your suit.

andrewm9 wrote:On the whole tarpit thing, Sisters do not have a tarpit unit anymore. Seraphim definitely aren't it in any case with some improvement to Hit and Run! or the ability to improve their initiative on the oppoenents turn. So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

I'm starting to wonder if the designers are working on the idea that the 'Codex' will have potential tarpits, and other assault units, while the Sisters themselves won't - hear me out, before crucifying the plebe, because my fuzzy logic takes a while to meander to its conclusion.

We know that the Sisters Dialogus are described as "skilled orators whose amplified voices can embolden the spirits of nearby troops", and the only thing special about the Dialogus is she's listed as having a Laud Hailer in her wargear. We also know that, in this meta, Sisters have largely been a mechanised force, and most 'competing' forces have a large number of Exorcists, Immies and Rhinos backing them up (while the rest of us have spent a small fortune on Repressors we now know we still won't be able to use - but I digress), and all of those vehicles (currently) can be equipped with Laud Hailers.

What if the idea is that Laud Hailers generate Stubborn bubbles? That the new BoSL is actually the nearest tank? 5th Edition allows squads to take a dedicated transport they can't fit into - they just can't mount up, and the transport can't begin the game carrying any other unit, so 20-woman Battle Sister squads could be backed up by an Immolator that gave them Stubborn, or positioned next to one of our rear echelon Exorcists.

Let's take the idea further, and posit a couple of (I hope) not too off-the-wall suggestions. First, let's say that Ecclesiarchy Conclaves are capped at 10, and can take a dedicated transport. That transport will have to be a Sororitas Rhino, since Chimeras look to have gone the way of the dodo. Let's also say that the naff-statted Preacher can take a Conclave and is an Elite, rather than an HQ - like C:BA lists Reclusiarchs and Chaplains in the same block, despite one being HQ and the other being Elite.

So, a squad of 10 Crusaders, going off Codex: Grey Knights, can be expected to cost <200 points including a Rhino with Laud Hailer. You now, hypothetically, have a 3++ Stubborn tarpit which drops 20 power weapon attacks on a charge. Let's say you want something swift and brutal in close combat, rather than a tarpit - something that'll kill the enemy before it gets a chance to strike back. Uriah Jacobus with 9 DCAs will give you 45 power weapon attacks (WS5, rerollable misses, S4 @ I6), while Stubborn and rocking FNP (on top of a 4++/5++). Let's say that's overkill - you're fighting Guard, not Space Marines, and just need a line-breaker. 10 Arco-Flagellants dumped out of a Rhino with Laud Hailer - 50 WS5 S4 (weird nerf - should be S5, going of C:GK) attacks @ I3, Stubborn with FNP.

Looking at it from this direction, it might be that the new idea to 'balance' the army is to have the Battle Sisters grind the enemy from middle-range with bolter and special-weapon spam, squads of melta Dominions outflanking in T-L MM Immolators, Exorcists (which I hope will get Rending to address the Glancing AP14 issue) raining fire on enemy artillery, and the sharp end of the army is actually populated by Conclave squads rather than either Seraphim or Celestians - the former being kicked out of the army to make way for Dominions (which is gutting for me, since I love the sculpts) while the latter is a 'last line of defense' for the Battle Sister squads if everything goes ploin-shaped.

I'm not saying it's a good design philosophy, but looking at what's been released so far, it's the only one I can think of that would make 'sense' from the perspective of making a competitive force out of what remains from C:WH. The new Faith system is a joke compared to the old Faith system - but perhaps their 'design goals' are that we no longer rely on Faith, and merely consider it a 'Oh, sweet, a Faith ability popped', compared to the old days where timing of Acts of Faith determined an entire battle.

winterman wrote:

So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Mawloc has hit and run with I4.
A single tau suit can have I3 hit and run via a special suit upgrade.
(Arguably) a marine unit getting hit and run from dante or khan would need to test on I4.

That is still way better than a 3 in case of the Mawloc, Khan and Dante. Perhaps I should have said 4 instead as I had not checked the Mawloc, but did on the Lictor, Dante, Marbo, Slaaneshi daemons, Hellions, Warp Spiders with an Exarch, etc. Those units have an initative of 5 or 6. I failed to realize (duh) that the units that attach to Khan and Dante would be reduced to 4 for testing sake. So 2 of 11 units have a 3 or less. I guess 3 of 12 now do. It still sucks and not just for Seraphim


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Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Ok I stand corrected. Crisis suits have other options for leaving combat as well at the moment with ejection systems that are automatic right?

Only works against shooting and you basically get a 1 wound no save fire warrior in place of your suit.

Yes but doesn't the wehole squad he's attached to get away as well?

andrewm9 wrote:

Yes but doesn't the wehole squad he's attached to get away as well?

Just a single model. Can only take one seat per army.

Mythal wrote:What if the idea is that Laud Hailers generate Stubborn bubbles? That the new BoSL is actually the nearest tank? 5th Edition allows squads to take a dedicated transport they can't fit into - they just can't mount up, and the transport can't begin the game carrying any other unit, so 20-woman Battle Sister squads could be backed up by an Immolator that gave them Stubborn, or positioned next to one of our rear echelon Exorcists.

Very interesting.

That would certainly be a cool way to do things.

actually put some teeth back into the Codex.

Melissia wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Tunnel vision much?

Would you say the same thing to Marine players who were mad at GW if they hypothetically nerfed them to T3?

If they posted it over and over and over, yes.

I've had it happen to my armies before, it will happen to other armies in the future. My orks went from being able to strike at I4 when they charged marines, to swinging at I3 when they charged marines. And they don't have a 3+ save to absorb the incoming blows.

Know what? I adapted. I learned to use the new rules.

streamdragon wrote:
1. Yes, we HAVE seen the army wide rules! That's the page that explains how to use Acts of Faith, what Shield of Faith is and how to generate Faith. The page is literally labeled "Army Special Rules"! What more are you expecting? A giant section in the Wargear titled "Items that completely and utterly change the previous page on 'Army Special Rules' "? They're right there, in black and ... slightly pinkish.

I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm not too worried about it, because without seeing point costs, and, yes, the wargear, it's not that important as a stand-alone item.

3. I am well aware I don't know the points cost. You can repeat that statement as many times as you like, and it will still not change certain elements about the army. It won't make Faith any better. It might make a unit cheaper to field, but that doesn't improve it's punching power at all. All it means is I get to plunk down MORE units, despite having the SAME amount of Faith points (the army's only real mechanic outside of the generic) to spend.

Okay, so how is fielding 60 bolters not more punching power than fielding 50? Maybe not more in one unit, but more as an army. How is fielding six units with flamer/melta not more punching power than five? Point costs matter. If you can't see that, you're not worth having a discussion about a point-based game with.

4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given.

No, it isn't. Because you cannot draw a rational conclusion about something based on impartial information. Any conclusion you draw about the viability of this codex based on reading half of it is irrational.

Melissia wrote:Battle Sisters are now offensively weaker than they were before. Thus why people are saying they no longer have any teeth.

Same argument as orks. The individual ork boy is now offensively weaker than he was in 3rd ed. Units of ork boyz, by comparison, are point-for-point stronger. You don't know the point cost, you cannot make a rational statement about whether the army is stronger or weaker. If you wish to compare individual models, that's fine, but once you start getting into the viability of the army, as a whole, you need the whole picture, which you do not have.

Melissia wrote:
As a side note: People need to grow up and stop accusing people who don't like what they see of panicking, or of hysteria, or of thinking the sky is falling. Frankly you're breaking rule number one here. Yes, you too redbeard.

And here I thought it was the people that have remained calm and patient who were acting like grown-ups.

Melissia wrote:What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

I hadn't heard that before. Really? What is it about their I3 that bothers you?

Melissia wrote:On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test.

Ignoring the change to Hit&Run, which really just normalizes this army with all the others, (I mean, my deffkoptas have I2 and hit&run), and you're upset about I3? I could have sworn I heard that somewhere else.

On Battle Sister: So what if they get re-rolled to-hits? That's still inferior to Divine Guidance in my view. A re-rolled bolter wound still has to deal with FNP and armor saves. AP1 bolter wounds don't.

Given 60 bolter shots at some typical targets, with bold representing the better option:

Terminators:
Vs. T4 2+: No act: 3.33 re-rolling hits: 4.44 kills, divine guidance: 6.66 kills
Vs. T4 2+ in cover: No act: 3.33 re-rolling hits: 4.44 kills, divine guidance: 5.55 kills

Marines:
Vs. T4 3+: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 11.11 kills
Vs. T4 3+ in cover: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 7.77

Guard/Eldar/Nids (6+ is same as 5+ versus bolters)
Vs. T3 5+: No act: 26.66 re-rolling hits: 35.5 kills, divine guidance: 26.66 kills
Vs. T3 5+ in cover: No act: 13.33 re-rolling hits: 17.77 kills, divine guidance: 13.33 kills

Orks:
Vs. T4 6+: No Act: 20 kills re-rolling hits: 26.75 kills, divine guidance: 20 kills
Vs. T4 6+ in cover: No Act: 10 kills re-rolling hits: 13.37 kills, divine guidance: 10 kills


- Against Terminators and Marines in the open, sure, Divine Guidance is better. But against anything except marines, it got you no benefit at all. Re-rolling your hits will get you more results against everything - not one case above yields equal or less than not using an act, not true for divine guidance. Furthermore, re-rolling hits is more valuable against most xenos races, which should be of interest to fluff/campaign players. Even shooting Marines in cover, re-rolls to hits are more valuable than divine guidance.

This picture is not as bleak as you're painting it.

Furthermore, examine the point costs.

At the current 11ppm, 60 sisters is 660 points. That yields (all not in cover):
99 points/kill versus terminators
59 points/kill versus marines
33 points/kill versus orks
25 points/kill versus Guard (eldar/nids)

New values, based on 11/10/9/8 point sisters:
Terminators: 149/135/122/108
Marines: 74/68/60/54
Orks: 24/22/19/17
Guard: 19/17/15/13

So, if a sister gets priced at 9ppm, she's actually just as efficient against marines with the new act as she was with the old one, while being more efficient versus all the xenos races. What's more, if they're priced at 8ppm, then the new sister actually has more teeth, point-for-point, than the old one.

Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

Redbeard wrote:Given 60 bolter shots at some typical targets, with bold representing the better option: snip
Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

Wow. I felt that some of this was true by my gut, but was too lazy to do the math.

That kind of brings it home.

Redbeard wrote:Against Terminators and Marines in the open, sure, Divine Guidance is better. But against anything except marines, it got you no benefit at all. Re-rolling your hits will get you more results against everything - not one case above yields equal or less than not using an act, not true for divine guidance. Furthermore, re-rolling hits is more valuable against most xenos races, which should be of interest to fluff/campaign players. Even shooting Marines in cover, re-rolls to hits are more valuable than divine guidance.

Ultimately, it depends how often you find yourself playing against MEQs. I don't think it'd be an exaggeration to say the odds of playing against CSM/SM/BA/GK/SW are higher than the odds of playing against Nids, Orcs or Eldar. Granted, game balance decisions should not be made on the basis of having an uneven playing field in terms of potential opponents - but in an ideal world GW would design every army to be equally competitive and every army would enjoy normalised distribution of players.

Redbeard wrote:Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

An oversimplification and, as someone new to the forum, something of a worrisome one. If we discuss hypotheticals on Dakka are we condemned to be considered irrational and fear-ridden? All discussion is built upon a level of interpretation and extrapolation - otherwise the discussion would serve no purpose, and we'd already know the answer :S

Redbeard wrote:
Given 60 bolter shots at some typical targets, with bold representing the better option:
...
Marines:
Vs. T4 3+: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 11.11 kills
Vs. T4 3+ in cover: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 7.77

The new BSS faith just rerolls 1s, not all misses. Thus, some of your calculations are I think incorrect. With re-rolling just 1s, the result is 7.66 kills for marines (that is the same as old DG in cover, much worse when not in cover). The other calculations are off in a similar way.

Mythal wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

An oversimplification and, as someone new to the forum, something of a worrisome one. If we discuss hypotheticals on Dakka are we condemned to be considered irrational and fear-ridden? All discussion is built upon a level of interpretation and extrapolation - otherwise the discussion would serve no purpose, and we'd already know the answer :S

I don't think you'll find that hypotheticals are what he is talking about. He is talking about the 10 pages of people complaining because their army is irrevocably harmed based on one half of a codex that they have seen. Speculation is one thing; wailing and gnashing of teeth without keeping it in perspective is another.

Speculation about what is coming and how it may affect the army is right in line, however.

Seen several people saying Battle sisters getting re-rolls to hit. Which isnt entirely true. The act of Faith states re-rolls to hit "of a 1"..... making it even worse.

S'jet wrote:Seen several people saying Battle sisters getting re-rolls to hit. Which isnt entirely true. The act of Faith states re-rolls to hit "of a 1"..... making it even worse.

You got ninja'd by Randy.

Units with base S3 T3 and I3 will NOT EVER stand up in combat, faith or not. THEY WILL LOSE.

To think otherwise is silly.

At least Guard and Tau are able to deal immense damage at extreme ranges...that's how they fight.

Sisters are close range shooters with the exception of Exorcists and HB retributers (which share the same FOC slot).

This is a recipe for disaster.

Make cheaper models and all that means is that more models will die in close combat. Without rending bullets, regular battle sisters have lost their teeth. What does normal bolter fire do to models with armour AND FNP?....BESIDES nothing?

No real psychic defense on the radar? What?

Immo total nerf? No fire points? No 12" move and flame?

I don't need to wait and see point costs and wargear b4 I realise that this codex will be a total train wreck. Any point cost reductions will be offset by all the wargear you'll have to purchase just to make these girls fight.

Close range shooters that get crushed...yes, CRUSHED in hth....EVERYTIME! Canonesses at T3 with no 2-3++ save will die in combat like the little girls they now are. The great invuln was what made them work.

Everything here is horribly nerfed, and you've got close range fighters with statlines that are totally inferior to anything else in the game designed to fight at this range. Fearless or not, stubborn or not, power armour or not...the only thing this army will do is die to players of equal skill level playing any other dex worth it's competetive salt.

Deadshane1 wrote:Units with base S3 T3 and I3 will NOT EVER stand up in combat, faith or not. THEY WILL LOSE.

To think otherwise is silly.

At least Guard and Tau are able to deal immense damage at extreme ranges...that's how they fight.

Sisters are close range shooters with the exception of Exorcists and HB retributers (which share the same FOC slot).

This is a recipe for disaster.

Make cheaper models and all that means is that more models will die in close combat. Without rending bullets, regular battle sisters have lost their teeth. What does normal bolter fire do to models with armour AND FNP?....BESIDES nothing?

No real psychic defense on the radar? What?

Immo total nerf? No fire points? No 12" move and flame?

I don't need to wait and see point costs and wargear b4 I realise that this codex will be a total train wreck. Any point cost reductions will be offset by all the wargear you'll have to purchase just to make these girls fight.

Close range shooters that get crushed...yes, CRUSHED in hth....EVERYTIME! Canonesses at T3 with no 2-3++ save will die in combat like the little girls they now are. The great invuln was what made them work.

Everything here is horribly nerfed, and you've got close range fighters with statlines that are totally inferior to anything else in the game designed to fight at this range. Fearless or not, stubborn or not, power armour or not...the only thing this army will do is die to players of equal skill level playing any other dex worth it's competetive salt.

Signed

Deadshane1 wrote:Units with base S3 T3 and I3 will NOT EVER stand up in combat, faith or not. THEY WILL LOSE.
To think otherwise is silly.

Guard blobs say hi.

No real psychic defense on the radar? What?

Wargear section isn't published. Where was the psychic defense in the last codex again?

Immo total nerf? No fire points? No 12" move and flame?

Unsure of points cost, can't really call it a nerf until you know the rest. The no move and flame thing is definitely a bummer.

Close range shooters that get crushed...yes, CRUSHED in hth....EVERYTIME! Canonesses at T3 with no 2-3++ save will die in combat like the little girls they now are. The great invuln was what made them work.

Again, you don't know what the canonesses can and can't get. They may be able to get Storm Shields for all you know. You don't know if there are SoF enhancing upgrades for squads, etc. It is too early to say definitively what will and won't happen.

Everything here is horribly nerfed, and you've got close range fighters with statlines that are totally inferior to anything else in the game designed to fight at this range. Fearless or not, stubborn or not, power armour or not...the only thing this army will do is die to players of equal skill level playing any other dex worth it's competetive salt.

I think I'll wait until we actually see the codex before declaring something that bold. It isn't the first time we have heard cries of doom over a codex in either direction.


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Don't get me wrong guys. You might be right. Maybe the second half will come out and the points costs went up and there are no pieces of wargear worth a damn in the whole book.

If that happens, I'll be right there with you.

Until then though...

pretre wrote:I don't think you'll find that hypotheticals are what he is talking about. He is talking about the 10 pages of people complaining because their army is irrevocably harmed based on one half of a codex that they have seen. Speculation is one thing; wailing and gnashing of teeth without keeping it in perspective is another.

Speculation about what is coming and how it may affect the army is right in line, however.

Well, that's good to know. I can't say I'm surprised about the largely negative reaction - the Faith system was the only thing that kept a pure-Sororitas force viable in C:WH, and now it looks like we'll need to use all of the Codex to be viable, not just Sisters of Battle units, due to the fact that Faith is now used to make specialist units slightly better, rather than making generalist units serve a specialist role very briefly. I honestly doubt Wargear will bring back that 'generalist' feel to the Sisters' units - instead, as I've said, I think it's a new design goal to make sure Sisters players make full use of the models available to them (and, from a business perspective, thus buy more models that they might have shunned in 3rd Edition).

It makes sense, in a way, since you wouldn't expect Space Marine players to shun half of their Codex and still expect it to be as competitive as the whole - but at the same time, Codex: Ecclesiarchy would have been a better moniker.

S'jet wrote:Seen several people saying Battle sisters getting re-rolls to hit. Which isnt entirely true. The act of Faith states re-rolls to hit "of a 1"..... making it even worse.

Indeed, it's the Dominions power which allows rerolls of any miss - the Battle Sister squads only reroll 1s.

I think it's now better to view Acts of Faith as simply Imperial Guard orders now. The Faith system in a vacuum has most definitely been "nerfed" inasmuch as it no longer serves the purpose it did, and the available powers are largely less powerful than those they are replacing. But I'm thinking Cruddace and Ward wanted to essentially 'break Sisters players out of their shell' - they want us to give up on the idea of a purely Sisters of Battle army ever being as competitive as one of their headline armies, and force us to include Ecclesiarchy units (probably because a Book Codex would need another 10 or so units to make it worth the printing, and they can't think of another 10 variants of Sororitas). Think of it as punitive taxation on petrol - something designed to compel a change in behaviour before behaviour is forceably changed for you by external factors.

Mythal wrote:Ultimately, it depends how often you find yourself playing against MEQs.

I went to a tourney last weekend. There were 3 people not running meq armies. All three of them are members of my play group. I don't care about being better against Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, and all of that other stuff. Bolters and Flamers alone deal enough damage to deal with them. While balance shouldn't be based on how many people play a certain army, it's worth considering that anything that isn't good against marines isn't good against 90% of the people you play that matter. Just sayin'.

Mythal wrote:Well, that's good to know. I can't say I'm surprised about the largely negative reaction - the Faith system was the only thing that kept a pure-Sororitas force viable in C:WH,

Immo spam was pure-SOB and didn't use faith.

and now it looks like we'll need to use all of the Codex to be viable, not just Sisters of Battle units, due to the fact that Faith is now used to make specialist units slightly better, rather than making generalist units serve a specialist role very briefly.

Hmm. I like how you put this. This may indeed be the way they are going.

I think it's now better to view Acts of Faith as simply Imperial Guard orders now. The Faith system in a vacuum has most definitely been "nerfed" inasmuch as it no longer serves the purpose it did, and the available powers are largely less powerful than those they are replacing.

I am thinking that you were right above. It is not so much a nerf as a complete redesign. Only points costs will tell us if it is truly a nerf or not.

But I'm thinking Cruddace and Ward wanted to essentially 'break Sisters players out of their shell' - they want us to give up on the idea of a purely Sisters of Battle army ever being as competitive as one of their headline armies, and force us to include Ecclesiarchy units (probably because a Book Codex would need another 10 or so units to make it worth the printing, and they can't think of another 10 variants of Sororitas). Think of it as punitive taxation on petrol - something designed to compel a change in behaviour before behaviour is forceably changed for you by external factors.

Wow. I was with you until this. lol

Deadshane1 wrote:Sisters are close range shooters

Lessee... close-range shooters that suck at melee... close-range shooters that suck at melee...

Why does that sound so familiar...?

I've got it!

The new Sisters 'dex is in reality a secret test of ideas to figure out how to make Eldar Guardians actually useful!


/duck

Guard blobs say hi.

Guard are designed to fight at range...sisters are not....as I stated

Wargear section isn't published. Where was the psychic defense in the last codex again?

They're called inquisitors. Oh, and sheild of faith on a 5+.

Unsure of points cost, can't really call it a nerf until you know the rest.

Actually, you can. When you consider that sisters are close range shooters, if they have to get out of their ride to shoot...they're dead.

Again, you don't know what the canonesses can and can't get. They may be able to get Storm Shields for all you know. You don't know if there are SoF enhancing upgrades for squads, etc. It is too early to say definitively what will and won't happen.

Again, as I said, all you have to do is look at their stats. You'll have to pump her up so much with wargear any point cost cheapness will be nullified.

I think I'll wait until we actually see the codex before declaring something that bold. It isn't the first time we have heard cries of doom over a codex in either direction.

It's not really that bold of a statement. Look at the weapon loadouts that we're going to have. We still have close range fighters here. Combine that with the base statline that sisters have and you've got troops that need to get close, cannot shoot out of their transports (if you take immo's) and don't have the basic statlines to survive out in the open against any army in the game.

Cheap models will mean that ton's will die/get rundown....
...and we're seeing troops that will have to be MEGABUFFED by tons of wargear in every squad to make them fight the way they're equipped to.

....I mean, what more do you need to see?

Redbeard wrote:I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm not too worried about it, because without seeing point costs, and, yes, the wargear, it's not that important as a stand-alone item.

Okay, so how is fielding 60 bolters not more punching power than fielding 50? Maybe not more in one unit, but more as an army. How is fielding six units with flamer/melta not more punching power than five? Point costs matter. If you can't see that, you're not worth having a discussion about a point-based game with.

No, it isn't. Because you cannot draw a rational conclusion about something based on impartial information. Any conclusion you draw about the viability of this codex based on reading half of it is irrational.

1. ... So you're content to know jack-all about the topic at hand while discussing it. Fantastic.

2. You can try to twist my words all you want, but you know what I meant. 10 sisters w/ the trimmings now, will be still weaker than 10 sisters w/ the trimmings before. Being cheaper doesn't somehow make them stronger. It just means there's more weaker elements. You can drop grots from 3 points to 2, so I can suddenly field 30% more grots, but they'll still just be grots. Cheaper cost doesn't suddenly make a bolter able to hurt a Rhino's front armor. More S3 attacks doesn't suddenly pull down more MEQs than having Divine Guidance on CC attacks. Cheaper, does not equal better. Cheaper simply equals more.

3. I'm guessing you don't know how science works then?

streamdragon wrote:
3. I'm guessing you don't know how science works then?

Well...scientists have said some pretty stupid gak over the years...lol.

pretre wrote:Immo spam was pure-SOB and didn't use faith.

Immo spam is going to be even more common if Laud Hailers really are the new BoSL.

pretre wrote:

I think it's now better to view Acts of Faith as simply Imperial Guard orders now. The Faith system in a vacuum has most definitely been "nerfed" inasmuch as it no longer serves the purpose it did, and the available powers are largely less powerful than those they are replacing.

I am thinking that you were right above. It is not so much a nerf as a complete redesign. Only points costs will tell us if it is truly a nerf or not.

Well, not necessarily a nerf to the models - as you say, that's down to point cost. I meant that the system itself was not as powerful - which it isn't. Note, I'm not judging whether that's a good or bad thing, or whether it will make the army unplayable - I'm only saying that the Faith system is not as powerful as once it was, mainly due to the fact that powers are now squad-specific (as I said, specialist and not generalist) rather than universal.

pretre wrote:

and now it looks like we'll need to use all of the Codex to be viable, not just Sisters of Battle units, due to the fact that Faith is now used to make specialist units slightly better, rather than making generalist units serve a specialist role very briefly.

Hmm. I like how you put this. This may indeed be the way they are going.

But I'm thinking Cruddace and Ward wanted to essentially 'break Sisters players out of their shell' - they want us to give up on the idea of a purely Sisters of Battle army ever being as competitive as one of their headline armies, and force us to include Ecclesiarchy units (probably because a Book Codex would need another 10 or so units to make it worth the printing, and they can't think of another 10 variants of Sororitas). Think of it as punitive taxation on petrol - something designed to compel a change in behaviour before behaviour is forceably changed for you by external factors.

Wow. I was with you until this. lol

Both quotes are the same thing, worded a different way. I honestly believe that the idea is to make "Sisters" players realise we have to use all of our Codex. Remember, Codex: Witch Hunters vaunted the Faith system as a method of running nothing but SoB miniatures. It was even advocated in the summing up. But I think they've come to the realisation that continuing that design philosophy means two things: duplicating roles, and thus models, within a Codex (making Sisters squads that are specifically designed to fill in a niche that the Codex fills with another Ecclesiarchy unit they already have models for), and trying to force square pegs into round holes (creating Sisters squads that they can't justify the existance of, just to plug a balance gap that could easily be plugged by an Ecclesiarchy unit they have fluff justification for).

To put it another way, if you can field solid CC troops from your Ecclesiarchal Conclaves, or passable CC troops by spamming Acts of Faith on your Celestians, at a comparable points cost, which is the wiser decision? Both are in your Codex, after all, and the only difference aside from the stats is the 'look and feel' of the models. From the game-balance perspective, it'd be like expecting the designers to come up with a special rule system that allowed you to field nothing but Scout Marines, Scout Bikers, and Land Speeder Storms, because you didn't like the look of traditional marines, without loss of army capability.

I'm not judging it - merely hypothesising that this is something that's driving the new Codex - making Sisters collectors realise that a truly balanced Codex: Sisters of Battle army won't be able to keep the 'look' of the force on the top half of Page 63 of C:WH.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Guard blobs say hi.

Guard are designed to fight at range...sisters are not....as I stated

Power blobs do fine in CC. You were saying I3/T3/S3 can't last in combat. I gave a counter point.

They're called inquisitors. Oh, and sheild of faith on a 5+.

The inquisitor role is largely moving to ecclesiarchy. For all we know there will be a Psychic Pope Hat that does the same thing.

Actually, you can. When you consider that sisters are close range shooters, if they have to get out of their ride to shoot...they're dead.

Oh, better tell BA that those minimum size squads with Meltas inside of Razorbacks aren't competitive.

Again, as I said, all you have to do is look at their stats. You'll have to pump her up so much with wargear any point cost cheapness will be nullified.

No, you'd have to give her an eviscerator and an invulnerable save and she'd largely be back where she was, but this time with different buffs depending on which squad she was with at the time. Oh, and she got a better WS, didn't she?

It's not really that bold of a statement. Look at the weapon loadouts that we're going to have. We still have close range fighters here. Combine that with the base statline that sisters have and you've got troops that need to get close, cannot shoot out of their transports (if you take immo's) and don't have the basic statlines to survive out in the open against any army in the game.
Cheap models will mean that ton's will die/get rundown....
...and we're seeing troops that will have to be MEGABUFFED by tons of wargear in every squad to make them fight the way they're equipped to.

If you can field 15 Immolators with 3 Meltaguns in each one at 1750 to 2000 points (this is exaggeration, before someone gets uppity), it won't matter how bad they are at H2H or how bad an idea it is to get out of a vehicle. And that's just one example of how this could work out.

....I mean, what more do you need to see?

Points costs. Wargear. The actual entries that armies get in the back of the codex describing weapons loadouts, upgrades, transport options, etc.


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Mythal wrote:I'm not judging it - merely hypothesising that this is something that's driving the new Codex - making Sisters collectors realise that a truly balanced Codex: Sisters of Battle army won't be able to keep the 'look' of the force on the top half of Page 63 of C:WH.

It is an interesting idea. I'll give you that.

- Against Terminators and Marines in the open, sure, Divine Guidance is better. But against anything except marines, it got you no benefit at all.

*looks at the number of MEQ armies on the tables every day*

I can deal with that. Given that flamer and heavy flamers are excellent against hordes, Sistesr never really needed THAT much help against hordes anyway! It's mostly been against MEQ hat Sisters have needed help.

Really, what Sisters player is going to have a problem fighting Orks or Tyranids? And the only reason we have problems with Guard is because our anti-tank ability sucks-- and this codex isn't really going to change that.

streamdragon wrote: 10 sisters w/ the trimmings now, will be still weaker than 10 sisters w/ the trimmings before. Being cheaper doesn't somehow make them stronger. It just means there's more weaker elements. You can drop grots from 3 points to 2, so I can suddenly field 30% more grots, but they'll still just be grots. Cheaper cost doesn't suddenly make a bolter able to hurt a Rhino's front armor. More S3 attacks doesn't suddenly pull down more MEQs than having Divine Guidance on CC attacks. Cheaper, does not equal better. Cheaper simply equals more.

So, streamdragon, if one always takes the stronger and not the cheaper version... Why don't people take full Tac Squads, full Assault Squads, etc?Why do people min/max for multiple razorbacks, etc? Quantity is a quality of its own at times.

Right now, 'pure sob' armies fill their troops with 10 girl squads in rhinos 'w/ the trimmings'. That's generally about 200 points or so. If you could get an immo, 2 meltas, 5 girls for 130, your lack of divine guidance is not going to be an issue. I'm not saying that is what is going to happen, but it could. Either way, cost will definitely effect the codexes efficacy.

pretre wrote:Right now, 'pure sob' armies fill their troops with 10 girl squads in rhinos 'w/ the trimmings'. That's generally about 200 points or so. If you could get an immo, 2 meltas, 5 girls for 130, your lack of divine guidance is not going to be an issue. I'm not saying that is what is going to happen, but it could. Either way, cost will definitely effect the codexes efficacy.

Said army will be weak against hordes due to the lack of bolters and flamers, and it's just more marine-lite crap--razorback spam, oh joy (and don't fool yourself, immolators are razorbacks by another name now, even more than before)..

If I could, Id' definitely put more squad members in my sisters squads, but footslogging squads are just too damn vulnerable to be of any use.

Redbeard wrote:...

Melissia wrote:Battle Sisters are now offensively weaker than they were before. Thus why people are saying they no longer have any teeth.

Same argument as orks. The individual ork boy is now offensively weaker than he was in 3rd ed. Units of ork boyz, by comparison, are point-for-point stronger. You don't know the point cost, you cannot make a rational statement about whether the army is stronger or weaker. If you wish to compare individual models, that's fine, but once you start getting into the viability of the army, as a whole, you need the whole picture, which you do not have.

...

Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

This seems to be the hope of the... I'm not sure what to call them, the apologists? The optimists? The contra-contras? Whatever. It's a strange argument, that if only they make the Sisters cheap enough, it'll be a good codex.

Let's take it to it's logical conclusion: if 8 or 9 point sisters would be great, then surely 2 or 3 point sisters would be the best codex ever, right? Let's not even go that far, let's just drop the cost of a Sister to the cost of a ork boy.

Do people really think that making sisters into a power armored horde army would make for a good codex? An interesting and rewarding play style for those that have stuck with the girls?

In the end, is a codex nothing more then point costs and an armory? If so, then the hope elucidated above would seem ideal: forget the total incongruity of the Empire even having such supplies of power armor, instead let's remember that we can already make that army.

Seriously; you want mech squads of power armored T3 models? They have a name for that, it's Warrior Acolytes in Inquisitorial Warbands, from Codex Coteaz (AKA Codex: Grey Knights); 14 points (8 points if you are willing to settle for carapace), 10 point meltas/plasma/flamers 3 to a squad. Access to rhinos, razorbacks, chimeras and storm ravens, assassins, etc, etc, etc.

Heck, is anyone really going to say that this new "codex" will be as flexible or interesting as just running your existing sister units using rules from GK with a few counts as (Dreadknight rules for penitent engines, for example)? "Power" alone is not the issue: if they drop the points enough any codex, no matter how bad it's units, can be powerful. But are people really going to keep making the argument that that is a) good design, or b) emotionally satisfying to play?

Orks and Guard being horde armies is one thing: Sisters as a horde? Really?

So, those people saying "it's too early to say the army has been ruined", if your great hope is a precipitous point drop, then... it kinda isn't too late, because then there isn't really a point to the codex, is there?

Question: When exactly do you do your faith test for the Celestians?

Act of Faith rule says: An AoF can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase; e.g. immediately before the unit moves in the Movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the Shooting phase, or strike blows in the Assault phase.

So RAW I should be able to move my units into assault and then do the test of faith, right?
This can be huge as what if you only have 1 Faith Point but 2 units that will assault in a phase but have to move through difficult terrain. What if one of them doesn't make it into assault, the one you used your Act of Faith on...

But from the AoF rule I take it that I can do the difficult terrain tests and if I get into combat I can chose to attempt the AoF or not.

MadCowCrazy wrote:Question: When exactly do you do your faith test for the Celestians?

Act of Faith rule says: An AoF can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase; e.g. immediately before the unit moves in the Movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the Shooting phase, or strike blows in the Assault phase.

So RAW I should be able to move my units into assault and then do the test of faith, right?
This can be huge as what if you only have 1 Faith Point but 2 units that will assault in a phase but have to move through difficult terrain. What if one of them doesn't make it into assault, the one you used your Act of Faith on...

But from the AoF rule I take it that I can do the difficult terrain tests and if I get into combat I can chose to attempt the AoF or not.

RAW would agree with your interpretation - you would make the check for the Act of Faith immediately before Hit rolls were made (a particularly anal person could argue that you would make the check before the Sisters first rolled to Hit, which would generally be after your opponent had already inflicted casualties in most I4+ forces, allowing you to avoid wasting a faith point if their first strike was particularly devastating and preventing the Canoness from ever gaining her Initiative bonus, since she would have to wait for her base I4 before being allowed to buff her squad to I+1).

Buzzsaw wrote:
Do people really think that making sisters into a power armored horde army would make for a good codex? An interesting and rewarding play style for those that have stuck with the girls?

As someone who has (and still does) played Sisters, as well as Orks, yes, I think that a power armoured horde would be fun to play.

Why?

Well, firstly, I've watched people struggle to drop 90 orks. So 90 sisters in armour would be fun if only to watch your opponent's face drop when you put them out.

Secondly, I've run Sisters as a power-armoured horde in the current edition, and they're not horrible. Maybe I'm weird, but I like infantry more than tanks. I like to see 100 models on the army. I have a hard time considering 30 men and some transports an army.

Third, I think that it's a niche that hasn't been explored by other factions in the game. All existing horde armies (nids, orks, guard) are poorly armored. It's something new. Maybe it won't be OTT, but it's not another mech-spam faction.

Why else? Well, depending on the cost, I think that there's some hope for other elements of the list helping to protect the Sisters from assault. Let's say the girls are 8-9ppm, and penitents are 50. Repentia@10 or 12, Seraphim at 15. Now you've got your scoring units as big blocks of well-armoured troops. Because they're not min-sized, you can sit them somewhere and fire their bolters at full range to the same effect that meched girls have rolling up and rapid-firing.

50 point penitents gives you cheap high-threat targets that put pressure on your opponent. They're not going to charge your sisters until the engines are dead, and there's little that they'll charge a squad of penitents with. Investing 450 points in these means one or two will hit your opponent's lines (I've done this in the current codex, but it costs 720 points instead, and one or two always make it there - I've yet to play someone who stopped them all). Meanwhile, your troops are maneuvering under less pressure. What's more, you've got a unit of seraphim, now cheaper, who can bubble wrap for the big blocks of girls, and repentia, also cheaper, who can counter-assault.

It's not an unworkable strategy, it doesn't rely heavily on faith, so losing that isn't the end of the world. It does, however, rely on low-point models. And that's my hope at the moment. Because I do think this would be fun to play.

If the second-half of the codex comes out and sisters are still 11 points and penitents are still 80, I'm with the rest of you and think it sucks. But I'm willing to be patient before I pass judgement.

Ever seen 2000 points of sisters on foot? It's pretty hard for almost any army to beat. Imagine if they lower the points cost and still allow 20 man units.

No need to complain about assault. This is a mid-range shooting army not a dedicated assault army.

pretre wrote:

streamdragon wrote: 10 sisters w/ the trimmings now, will be still weaker than 10 sisters w/ the trimmings before. Being cheaper doesn't somehow make them stronger. It just means there's more weaker elements. You can drop grots from 3 points to 2, so I can suddenly field 30% more grots, but they'll still just be grots. Cheaper cost doesn't suddenly make a bolter able to hurt a Rhino's front armor. More S3 attacks doesn't suddenly pull down more MEQs than having Divine Guidance on CC attacks. Cheaper, does not equal better. Cheaper simply equals more.

So, streamdragon, if one always takes the stronger and not the cheaper version... Why don't people take full Tac Squads, full Assault Squads, etc?Why do people min/max for multiple razorbacks, etc? Quantity is a quality of its own at times.

Right now, 'pure sob' armies fill their troops with 10 girl squads in rhinos 'w/ the trimmings'. That's generally about 200 points or so. If you could get an immo, 2 meltas, 5 girls for 130, your lack of divine guidance is not going to be an issue. I'm not saying that is what is going to happen, but it could. Either way, cost will definitely effect the codexes efficacy.

Please point me to where I even remotely said "one always takes the stronger and not the cheaper version". I said that the proposition that "cheaper IS stronger" was incorrect. Cheaper is cheaper. That is all. Making a grot cheaper does not make a grot stronger. With the nerf that Sisters got in abilities (i.e., Acts of Faith), making them cheaper does not somehow magically make them stronger.

And the answer to your Tac squad dilemma is simple: Current mech spam meta game. I'm not really sure what you're looking for, especially when you point out people don't take full squads, but then go on to say that "Quantity is a quality of its own at times." There's an entire long winded answer about point efficiency, cheap cost of razorbacks and all that. But as the question really seems to have nothing to do with my initial statements, I'm afraid you'll have to clarify exactly what you're asking.

As to "lack of divine guidance is not going to be an issue", I still disagree. That little unit might not care, true. Of course, that little unit won't care because once it shoots it's more than likely going to get obliterated in return. When people, such as myself and Redbeard apparently, field big units of 20 sisters, however, having Divine Guidance is worth the couple of points difference. When you have possibly 40+ attacks charging against a unit, even 1 in 6 suddenly becoming a power weapon is worth it. It's also worth pointing out that you have only a 1 in 36 chance of failing that Divine Guidance, instead of (what would be) the current 1 in 6 at best.

Redbeard wrote:
As someone who has (and still does) played Sisters, as well as Orks, yes, I think that a power armoured horde would be fun to play.

Why?
>snipped for space<

It's not an unworkable strategy, it doesn't rely heavily on faith, so losing that isn't the end of the world. It does, however, rely on low-point models. And that's my hope at the moment. Because I do think this would be fun to play.

If the second-half of the codex comes out and sisters are still 11 points and penitents are still 80, I'm with the rest of you and think it sucks. But I'm willing to be patient before I pass judgement.

It also requires that your opponent wants to charge you in the first place; several armies (Guard, Tau, etc.) will be quite content to sit back and shoot you as you slog across the board. It also relies on your opponent not fielding a plethora of AP3 or better weaponry. I'm not sure about your area, but there's a ton of AP3 in mine. Pie plates and flame templates too, which I suppose you don't get a lot if people are struggling to take down Orks (KFF not withstanding ). I know there's always the "Use cover and tactics" argument, but I'm assuming both sides are doing so in equal measure.

A regular battle sister has gotten weaker. Her versatility has dropped, as she no longer has a variety of Acts of Faith to use to adapt to a new situation. She is also unable to use Acts of Faith at all during the opponent's turn.

You can tell me "wargear might change that!" but unless you think they're going to write up wargear that completely changes the new Faith mechanic, it won't.

You can tell me "they'll be cheaper, you can field more!" but more is not the same as stronger. More is just more.

I'm not saying "You'll never be able to win with them! OMG THEY ARE THE SUXXORS LOLZ!" I'm saying that the Sisters of Battle have been dramatically weakened. I'm saying that while other armies are using their special rules to their advantage, Sisters of Battle will feel almost like playing Marines, but with Ld issues.



Edit: Anyone else notice that Saint Celestine doesn't even have an Act of Faith?

If the Simulacrum Imperialis allowed a unit to share its faith ability to a nearby unit, that would solve some of our worries. You'd definately be taking retributors then.

IdentifyZero wrote:This is a mid-range shooting army

No it isn't. We don't have any mid-ranged shooting outside of heavy bolters on retributors. It's SHORT-ranged shooting. Barring Exorcists, frankly the army only has any power whatsoever at 3-12" range.

And just because it's a shooting-based army dosen't mean it should have no viable assault options. Orks can base an excellent army around shooting. Space Wolves are excellent whether in assault or at range. Even Tyranids have excellent choicse for both assault and shooting. Space Marines do too. Hell, even Guard can assault decently enough. Why not have a Sisters unit that can too? They're better (in terms of skill) than Guard.

Melissia wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:This is a mid-range shooting army

No it isn't. We don't have any mid-ranged shooting outside of heavy bolters on retributors.

And just because it's a shooting-based army dosen't mean it should have no assault options.

Melissia, I have noticed the only thing you have done this entire thread is be negative, criticize anything said by anyone but yourself and constantly bemoan how the world is coming to an end because of the new changes, when you haven't even seen them in their entirety.

I would suggest, for your own health and well-being, that you begin to take these things a lot less seriously and realize, that no matter how angry you get or how vehemently you disagree; you will not be able to change things.

Whatever changes GW has made, are made. I suggest you deal with it.

I also don't think you understand the meaning of 'mid'.

48" is what you would consider long range, as outside of some 72" or 60" weapons, it is the standard for long range since the beginning.

24" is what you would call mid-range.

12" is what you would call short range.

I've got some lovely Canadian cheddar cheese here, interested in a slice?

IdentifyZero wrote:I also don't think you understand the meaning of 'mid'.

48" is what you would consider long range, as outside of some 72" or 60" weapons, it is the standard for long range since the beginning.

24" is what you would call mid-range.

12" is what you would call short range.

Exactly, so why are you saying they have mid-ranged power? They don't. Their only power is 3-12" (or 3-18" if you include the 6" move), not at 24".

Without Divine Guidance, Marines have the same offensive power at the same range.

IdentifyZero wrote:Ever seen 2000 points of sisters on foot? It's pretty hard for almost any army to beat. Imagine if they lower the points cost and still allow 20 man units.

See, that's what I think too... and I regularly play folks who are completely unprepared to face down 70-120 sisters foot slogging... when one unit got assaulted, 20 nearby sisters would charge in and offer 42 attacks (superior with assaulty weaponry) to help out... while the seraphim units would be putting a large amount of pressure of stuff in the back field... then I'd have the excorsists roll in from reserve (and my callidus assassin, but that is now gone :( ) and just lay waste to everything with 13 armor or less... and if I got lucky, even av 14 would go down due to the shots being ap1.

I'd usually end the game with 1000+ pts and either annihilation win or objective wins/ties... but most people don't like to play with that many models on the ground... :/

Again, you're missing the cost factor. Marines do not have the same power at the same range, as marines cannot field as many for the points. In a shooting battle, an equal value of sisters will beat marines as they'll have more shots to take, and more wounds to give. Even moreso if they can re-roll '1's to hit.

And thinking that you need to get to rapid fire range to do anything is incorrect. 20 sisters on foot put out the same firepower at 24" that 10 sisters do at 12".

Redbeard wrote:Again, you're missing the cost factor. Marines do not have the same power at the same range, as marines cannot field as many for the points.

Not in C:WH. Probably not in this codex either.

Redbeard wrote:And thinking that you need to get to rapid fire range to do anything is incorrect. 20 sisters on foot put out the same firepower at 24" that 10 sisters do at 12".

They also cost twice as much.

Melissia wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Again, you're missing the cost factor. Marines do not have the same power at the same range, as marines cannot field as many for the points.

Not in C:WH. Probably not in this codex either.

Really? Take 1000 points, buy nothing but tactical marines or basic sisters from C:WH, and find out which one you get more of?

Redbeard wrote:And thinking that you need to get to rapid fire range to do anything is incorrect. 20 sisters on foot put out the same firepower at 24" that 10 sisters do at 12".

They also cost twice as much.

Sure, but you don't have to buy them a rhino. In C:WH, that's 5 more sisters (assuming you bought the smoke & extra armour). Let's look at C:WH, 10 girls, no upgrades. That's 110. Rhino w/ rhino upgrades, that's 168. Depending on the cost of sisters in the new codex, you might get 20 sisters for those points (8 ppm), or maybe a few more (180 if 9ppm). That means that, if the basic sister's cost is lowered sufficiently, you can exert the same force at 24" using new cheaper sisters, as you could before at 26" (and the extra 2 are disembark inches). But, you're also not going to get assaulted by whatever remains, so you're going to be able to exert that same force for 2 or 3 turns depending on how the movements actually work out.

It's not all doom&gloom. Depending on the cost of the new models, they could be just fine, or even better than the older ones.

Melissia wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:I also don't think you understand the meaning of 'mid'.

48" is what you would consider long range, as outside of some 72" or 60" weapons, it is the standard for long range since the beginning.

24" is what you would call mid-range.

12" is what you would call short range.

Exactly, so why are you saying they have mid-ranged power? They don't. Their only power is 3-12" (or 3-18" if you include the 6" move), not at 24".

Without Divine Guidance, Marines have the same offensive power at the same range.

Bolters have a 24" range. Amazing, right?

Redbeard wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:
Do people really think that making sisters into a power armored horde army would make for a good codex? An interesting and rewarding play style for those that have stuck with the girls?

As someone who has (and still does) played Sisters, as well as Orks, yes, I think that a power armoured horde would be fun to play.

Then put your Orcs in cover. Grats, you now have the equivalent of the Sisters codex with all the orkiness you can handle.

pretre wrote:
- Two, faith is more reliable but less '30 seconds on the clock and we need a touchdown'. On average, my lists had about 7-9 faith points at 2k. Now, I will have 17.5 faith points over 5 turns. Do I need 3.5 faith points on turn one? Probably not, I usually wouldn't use any on the first two turns and would burn through 3 or 4 a turn on turn 4 or 5. Will I change my approach to better accomodate this? Yes.

This is entirely incorrect. Faith is NOT more realiable then up or down. Whats more reliable? 4+ on one die or rolling under 10 on 2 dice for something like divine guiidance. FURTHER, read faith again-Your faith pool wipes out at the end of your turn. So no faith use in your opponents turn. Who cares if I have 17.5 faith by your count(personally 7-9 is rather low in 2K, I usually run about 12), if you cant use them when necessary- those repentia CANT use that power for example, in your opponents assault phase, so unless your wpining them out in yours they die in your opponents turn striking last....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Good call, S'jet. Depending on points, that could be entertaining.

Anyone else notice that Seraphim fire two pistols? Who cares, right? If they can still buy inferno pistols and hand flamers in the same quantities and they are cheaper, you might see:
- 5 Seraphim, 2xDual Inferno Pistols. (4 Strength 8, AP 1 Melta Shots? Thanks!)
- 5 Seraphim, 2x Dual Hand Flamers (4 S3, AP6 Templates, reroll wounds... Meh, not as great.)

Inferno pistols, at least in the WH book, are AP 2, NOT AP 1.

I am open to the possibility that part 2 of the WD Codex could make the sisters a viable and interesting army, but for now all I can judge is part 1. GW decided to split the codex up over two magazines, so blame them, not the people complaining, for judging half of the codex.

Even as it stands I can see a couple of ways to make viable armies out of the nonsense presented using the C:WH prices and without knowing what the wargear does, but that still leaves serious problems.

1) A sisters mob is a very dollar intesive army. Our basic trooper is about six bucks, that is as much as the newer, fancier FW Death Korps guard troopers. That is going to be a hard sell for getting new players to try this.

2) After spending all that money, it may or may not be invalidated by the "real" codex which may or may not be coming or any good. Ask my inquisitorial storm troopers, frateris militia, inquisitors or $50 death chair how I feel about that.

3) We are going to see the oposite of what the other new codexii did. Before you could count on Acts of Fait at a critical juncture, so taking units that sometimes relied on Acts of Faith was still a good idea. Now you not only have to make the faith roll, but you can never count on the number of faith points you have per turn. The old system took more book keeping, but in exchange you got reliability. Now, sure having rending HB is nice, but you can't count on it, so I better just take another excorcist instead. In an army that is already limited in options, this list will make it worse.

Now the wargear and cost may mitigate what we see here, but as presented I am seeing boring armies that a prepared enemy can beat face on. Power armor is great, but to make it worth it on points alone we would have to have some crazy cheap sisters or some crazy awesome wargear.

But hey, the Seraphim get two shots again and the bondage sisters are no longer lead by a dominatrix, so we got that at least.

It is not doom that I am chanting, instead I am calling out with a mighty, meh. Nothing about this list excites or inspires. Sure, a lot of people are saying, what did you expect from a white dwarf codex? Well, when we complained about the WD Dex, people said, no wait, it could be awesome. So really, we expected this. I was hoping the new dex would at least get us a finecast Cannoness or Seraphim (since plastics are too much to expect) but even that seems unlikely.

So it is not a roar of "The sky is falling!" that I will scream from the hill tops. No, it is just the sigh of "we told ya so" and the sound of dust gathering on my figures.

But would it have killed them to give the Immolator a flamestorm cannon?

AllistorPreist wrote:

But would it have killed them to give the Immolator a flamestorm cannon?

I too was hoping for something that will set Sister's fanaticism over flame based-weapons ahead of everyone else. The only thing unique the new Sisters have, which others don't, is potential quad Heavy Flamer Retributors with Divine Guidance.

AllistorPreist wrote:
But hey, the Seraphim get two shots again and the bondage sisters are no longer lead by a dominatrix, so we got that at least.

But would it have killed them to give the Immolator a flamestorm cannon?

Mistress of Penitence is still there I'm afraid

And I'd never thought of the Flamestorm cannon on Immolators. That would have been excellent.

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:

The problem is the new Acts of Faith suck.

Arguable. I haven't used them yet.

You dont have to be able to use them to see how weak the mechnics are, and the powers. If on turn 3-4, your go turn, you roll '1's for number of faith points, your hosed. Old rules, you had a set number YOU thought you need, ready and raring to go. Reroll to hit with bolters isnt as good as divine guidance.


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pretre wrote:
According to what you have seen so far. If they're 12 points a piece and can upgrade 1 out of every 3, then they aren't quite as inferior. You're going off on two factors when you don't see the whole picture. Maybe you're right and they are strictly inferior, but we won't know until the next WD is out.

No they are still inferior to their 22pt counterparts. The loss of I4 and the hit and run reiablity removal for starters is NOT a a replaced by 1 of 3 upgrades. I'll take the hit and run reliablity any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:
I appreciate the depth of your experience, but I think you're being a bit premature as the whole codex isn't even out yet.

Question:

Do you have a sisters army? Because what i have found in this thread so far, is those that dont have them and dont play them seem to have unrealistic expectations from this WD list(and conversely, its universal sister players have a very dissapointed and negative opinion of the list).