Got WD last night and had a quick/brief glance over it.

Some things seem fairly decent but it's all down to Part 2 with point costs and wargear. We need some really EPIC wargear.

I can see why they've done it though. They realised no one hardly took Dominions and Retributors so had to think of a way to make us use them. Make each unit have unique Faith, that'll solve it...well no.

Seraphim aren't THAT bad but only if you take them with a Jet-Cannoness (if that's still possible). If you manage to pull off both their faith acts it could be handy.

Shooting phase - Seraphim can fire both pistols but no other weapons that turn from that model (errr why would you?), their faith allows re-roll to wounds (not bad really), they can re-roll failed Acts of Faith rolls AND Inv saves. With a Cannoness she could make them I4 and Preferred enemy in Assault. She is also Stubborn and passes this on to any unit I believe. Cannoness can also re-roll To Wound rolls as she benefits from the Seraphims faith just like they do hers.

ALSO a Seraphim unit would add +2 to any faith roll so you would need a 3+ re-rollable for Seraphim to get their faith off. +1 for Cannoness +1 for Seraphim Superior.

All our tanks have a 6+ Inv save too. Not much but it's going to save our bacon sometimes :-)

So if points are lowered I will definitely be trying this combo out. Especially with hand flamers :-D


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AND

To top it all off WD don't know who SoB will be fighting next month. It says "Hive Fleet Leviathan" in the Codex and "Orks" on the back cover!!! Yay two battle reports ;-0

Eumerin wrote:St. Celestine doesn't stay dead anymore. She's received mortal wounds several times, but the mortal bit never seems to stick like it should. The word amongst the faithful is that she'll continue to live until the Emperor himself claims her.

Personally, I like the change.

Sounds intriguing. We already have a pair of similar prophecies. The GK Codex mentions a prophecy where they believe an invincible warrior will finally die at the foot of the Golden Thorn but attribute it to Anval Thawn. Then there's Sanguinius' own prophecy about a golden angel defending the Emperor. While many BA reckon it refers to the HH, Dante believes it to be himself. It could also be used to describe the Sanguinor imo...

Well the Sanguinor is basically a copy paste living saint anyway.

Picked up a copy yesterday and flinched when I saw it was co-authored by Mat Ward. That might explain why we weren't all that impressed by the units and I've got a feeling that the list next month won't be any better.

It really isn't the end of the world BrookM.

I am certainly willing to give it a go and adapt. There are some nasty combos available already and it all boils down to the points really. For example if the Confessors are fairly cheap I will be attaching one to a Celestian Squad. Get a Cannoness in there too and it's pretty good.

I will miss Divine Guidance but looks like we will actually have to use other units other than Sister squads.

As long as he didn't write the fluff we're pretty much safe.

Well, there was no Ultra-fapping or horrible instances of murder for your blood and other acts of desecrating women, so I'm guessing Arby did that.

Did you feel sleepy during or after you read it? That's a sure sign of Arby's work.

It was boring and devoid of those things that make it 40k, so yes, it's his work alright.

So a quick lookthrough of the codex and I'm a bit confused about one thing (I didn't read all 30 previous pages of this thread) are there no force organization slots ?

It doesn't say what is HQ, Elites Troops ETC, or is it all just assumed to be the same as the previous codex, this is just an update to stats/wargear of existing models ?

Disarray wrote:So a quick lookthrough of the codex and I'm a bit confused about one thing (I didn't read all 30 previous pages of this thread) are there no force organization slots ?

It doesn't say what is HQ, Elites Troops ETC, or is it all just assumed to be the same as the previous codex, this is just an update to stats/wargear of existing models ?

You are missing half the codex. Which is out in next months white dwarf. Naturally.

n0t_u wrote:Well the Sanguinor is basically a copy paste living saint anyway.

No. 1 fan of Celestine to be sure. The martyr-like pose, the emphasised nipplage, what a copycat...

...It wasn't surprising to hear some WH fans say they'd rather use the BA codex than this release. Some of their themes often seem to overlap.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As long as he didn't write the fluff we're pretty much safe.

All this talk of prophecies involving the Emperor makes me think that Matt Ward was in charge of the fluff, and Cruddace the rules. If it were true, surely it would have played out better switching them around?

I agree.

With Ward at the helm of the rules we'd get all sorts of stupid over-the-top gak, but it'd be manageable and fun (even if half the concepts are pants-on-head).

And then with Arby on the fluff it would be sleep-inducing, which is preferable to rage-inducing.

I definitely prefer Ward on rules than Ward on fluff for Sisters. The metagame is kind of reliant on Wardified rules now, otherwise Sisters will be such a failure we'll never see a proper release again. Ward on fluff would mean the Sisters release would be the only to have the featured factor lose every major conflict. (except choking the enemy with Sororitas corpses?)

gr1m_dan wrote:Some things seem fairly decent but it's all down to Part 2 with point costs and wargear. We need some really EPIC wargear.

We're not going to get it. I don't know why people are expecting game-breaking wargear. It is very unreasonable.

gr1m_dan wrote:I can see why they've done it though. They realised no one hardly took Dominions and Retributors so had to think of a way to make us use them. Make each unit have unique Faith, that'll solve it...well no.

For Retributors, the problem is their limitation to HBs/MMs. They need a better variety when it comes to weapon choices, or they will never be a viable alternative to Exorcists in standard games. They have not gotten it, so they will still not be taken.

For Dominions-- just adding scout alone would have been enough.

gr1m_dan wrote:Seraphim aren't THAT bad but only if you take them with a Jet-Cannoness (if that's still possible). If you manage to pull off both their faith acts it could be handy.

They're still worse than they used to be.

gr1m_dan wrote:With a Cannoness she could make them I4 and Preferred enemy in Assault. She is also Stubborn and passes this on to any unit I believe. Cannoness can also re-roll To Wound rolls as she benefits from the Seraphims faith just like they do hers.

Yes, but then they also become far less mobile, losing hit and run.

Not that they can really rely on hit and run anymore.

gr1m_dan wrote:All our tanks have a 6+ Inv save too. Not much but it's going to save our bacon sometimes :-)

Not really... relying on a 1/6th chance to survive isn't something I'd want to do.

gr1m_dan wrote:To top it all off WD don't know who SoB will be fighting next month. It says "Hive Fleet Leviathan" in the Codex and "Orks" on the back cover!!! Yay two battle reports ;-0

So we get to see them playtest a horrible codex against two armies which allow for really horrendous builds so that they can try to tailor their lists to make sure Sisters win?

Melissia wrote:

gr1m_dan wrote:Some things seem fairly decent but it's all down to Part 2 with point costs and wargear. We need some really EPIC wargear.

We're not going to get it. I don't know why people are expecting game-breaking wargear. It is very unreasonable.

Maybe not EPIC!!! but something. It isn't unreasonable to wait for the whole shebang before giving up the ghost.

For Retributors, the problem is their limitation to HBs/MMs. They need a better variety when it comes to weapon choices, or they will never be a viable alternative to Exorcists in standard games. They have not gotten it, so they will still not be taken.

It looks like the Easy Bake Oven will be back. The entry in the first part indicates that HF are available to Retributors again. 4xHF in an Immo is still a good time. Especially since they are the only ones with Rending now.

For Dominions-- just adding scout alone would have been enough.

This does intrigue me. Dominions with scout will definitely be something I try out.

Not really... relying on a 1/6th chance to survive isn't something I'd want to do.

I don't think anyone is relying on a 6+ to survive. That being said, it is a nice bonus.

So we get to see them playtest a horrible codex against two armies which allow for really horrendous builds so that they can try to tailor their lists to make sure Sisters win?

Sigh

Melissa - you haven't seen part 2 of the Codex. You know exactly NOTHING on what we are getting. Neither do I.

I am guessing at the following for Command squads though. We have a Surgeon who is obviously going to give a squad FNP or a bubble of FNP. There is the vox caster unit too which will give us a buff to LD.

I am as mad as anyone about the removal of our old faith rules. I loved having AP1 Bolters (on 6's) and Flamers. I feel the pain of everyone but and whilst this isn't an awesome Codex it isn't AS BAD as it could have been.

I am going to play test Seraphim/Cannoness combo ASAP and I know it will be good. Hit and Run was great but this should be decent enough.

Ok a 6+ Inv save is pretty gash and I hate relying on one result but it is something...it's better then NOT having it. Surely you can agree on that.

Sigh what? Are you disputing that new release Codices always win their first battle in WD these days?

To be fair I remember when 7th edition Vampire Counts was released. The guy playing Vampire Counts didn't cast Invocation (the signature spell of the army that raises dead models) once the entire game and ended up losing.

Also regarding the 6++ save. If we are getting it for free then it's alright; certainly not anything that will affect the game in a meaningful way but whatever. If we are paying for it then it's bad.

htj wrote:Sigh what? Are you disputing that new release Codices always win their first battle in WD these days?

No, mostly because I don't usually read them. It is more 'Sigh, the horrible negativity on the internet makes me a sad panda sometimes, sigh. 'Yes, yes, 'Welcome to the internet, pretre'. haha

gr1m_dan wrote:Melissa - you haven't seen part 2 of the Codex. You know exactly NOTHING on what we are getting. Neither do I.

I know what to expect; I pay attention to GW.

gr1m_dan wrote:I am as mad as anyone about the removal of our old faith rules. I loved having AP1 Bolters (on 6's) and Flamers. I feel the pain of everyone but and whilst this isn't an awesome Codex it isn't AS BAD as it could have been.

"It could have been worse" is very poor consolation.

gr1m_dan wrote:Ok a 6+ Inv save is pretty gash and I hate relying on one result but it is something...it's better then NOT having it. Surely you can agree on that.

Not in comparison to having the old Shield of Faith.

We're paying for it with the loss of protection from force weapons and protection from psychic powers. And given that the list has no psykers, we aren't getting a psychic hood.


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pretre wrote:the horrible negativity on the internet makes me a sad panda

I'm negative in regards to how GW treats Sisters because I have a perverse enjoyment of being right all the time

Melissia wrote:

gr1m_dan wrote:Ok a 6+ Inv save is pretty gash and I hate relying on one result but it is something...it's better then NOT having it. Surely you can agree on that.

Not in comparison to having the old Shield of Faith.

We're paying for it with the loss of protection from force weapons and protection from psychic powers. And given that the list has no psykers, we aren't getting a psychic hood.

Okay, a couple statements here that require clarification. a 6+ invul all the time for all units is an improvement over a 5+ vs psychic and immune to force weapons. One is conditional and doesn't come up against a number of armies. The other is present all the time. You will take 15% less wounds and results, period. That's better than 33% less wounds from psychic powers and immunity from instagib on force (which only affected two models in our army, the Canoness and Celestine).

Secondly, we do not know if we will get a psychic hood or not. For all we know, Confessors can take a Pope Hat of Protection that prevents psychic powers within 24 on a 4+. Or Laud Hailers reduce enemy Ld within 24" by -1. No idea. We are/were an anti-psyker list.

I'm negative in regards to how GW treats Sisters because I have a perverse enjoyment of being right all the time

I will take this as the joke it was. laugh


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And before we get uppity, yes I know that SoF is inferior to SotM. We're not comparing those two though. We're comparing old SoF to new SoF. It is better now.

sirrah wrote:I definitely prefer Ward on rules than Ward on fluff for Sisters. The metagame is kind of reliant on Wardified rules now, otherwise Sisters will be such a failure we'll never see a proper release again. Ward on fluff would mean the Sisters release would be the only to have the featured factor lose every major conflict. (except choking the enemy with Sororitas corpses?)

Nope, the meta is Kelly / Cruddace - ified rules

People always forget that...

pretre wrote:It looks like the Easy Bake Oven will be back. The entry in the first part indicates that HF are available to Retributors again. 4xHF in an Immo is still a good time. Especially since they are the only ones with Rending now.

Why would you give up access to one of few str 8 weapons we have the codex that can shoot past 12"? Unless Sister heavy flamers can shoot 3 times or something wacky like that then its probbaly not worth it to take anything in heavy support but Exorcists. the codex receives are very limited number of high strength shooting over 24". There are only 3 existing guns in the codex with a strength over 5. They are the multi-melta, the exorcist missile launcher, and the meltagun. Also there are two guns unless we get some new wapons with a range over 24" and that is the heavy bolter and the Exorcist missile launcher. The new codex should have plugged some holes in the existing one and no I don't mean assault. Now more than ever we need strong shooting since we are almost entirely reliant on it and it with some serious weapons additions we aren't getting it. I suppose a possibility exists of shelling out a signifianct number of heavy bolters in the army along with manufacture of new weapons that have no representation in the current codex, but that is doubtful however since I'm not seeing any creative breakthroughs in the rules.

pretre wrote:You will take 15% less wounds and results, period.

... no, because POWER ARMOR.

pretre wrote:Secondly, we do not know if we will get a psychic hood or not.

I repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:We're not going to get it. I don't know why people are expecting game-breaking wargear. It is very unreasonable.

We're about as likely to get a psychic hood as we are to get an infantry-wielded punisher cannon.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:You will take 15% less wounds and results, period.

... no, because POWER ARMOR.

Great use of your shift key! 15% less wounds from AP1/2/Power Weapons/Dangerous Terrain/etc. and 15% less vehicle results, period. Obviously it doesn't do anything to normal attacks that don't go through power armor. Thanks for pointing out the obvious though!

Melissia wrote:We're about as likely to get a psychic hood as we are to get an infantry-wielded punisher cannon.

Sorry, forgot you were on the design team!
Notice that I also listed ld modifiers as psychic defense as well (which you conveniently forgot to quote). I bet your good name that there will be some sort of psychic defense in the wargear section.

@Petre thank you for some reasoning here.

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

Like I have said over and over whilst I dislike the fact we don't have our 2 most useful Faiths' any more there will be many times the new Faith system will help us a lot.

Dominions riding around in Rhinos with 4 twin linked BS4 Meltas, and our Rhino has 1/6 chance of saving any hits. Scouting too. That ain't something people can ignore really.

Again - it will come down to points and gear. If points are the same THEN it will be nerfed and crap. If we get rubbish gear like you predict THEN it will be crap. Just look at the last two Codexes Ward did. Sheesh. Some of his ubercheeze will seep through into some part of the 'dex. I hope.

Why do I seem to be the only one to actuall test this stuff out? Is it somewhat inaccurate becuase I'm using the old point system and wargear? Sure. but I would love to see more people take their sisters to the field even under the old wargear and point system just to give the faith point system and updated stats/stuff a shake.

I want to reiterate my mini battle (and I will be playing another, larger battle soon) that yea, faith sucks as we can't use it on the enemies turn anymore, but it isn't crippling. I was happy with the results of my cannoness attached to the repentia in my game. Taking out half my opponets list with half my list against a heavy H2H unit was nice.

That said, I would really encourage others to take it to the streets! I want to see Easy Bake Oven tried out on a battlefield. Use the old point system and test out the new ruels. THEN you can back up some of your arguments about faith/I 3/ect. with actual play.

I know you negative nancies will say "that won't be accurate as the wargear and points will change". Sure, they will, but the conclusions I can draw from fielding my nuns on the field with the mixed dex is a hell of a lot more accurate than your speculations. And it'll still give the feel of how things will be, even if the results will be moderatley different.

pretre wrote:Sorry, forgot you were on the design team!

If I was on the design team, the codex would have been far better. And yes, I firmly stand by that statement. This was a very rushed codex, I will be completely and utterly without surprise when there's no psychic defense.

gr1m_dan wrote:@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies.

They also were real codices where GW had an incentive to produce good rules because they were releasing models to sell alongside them.

gr1m_dan wrote:Some of his ubercheeze will seep through into some part of the 'dex. I hope.

There's a difference between hoping and expecting. I hoped this codex wouldn't suck. But I kept my actual expectations realistic. It's a PDF codex, they all suck

Melissia wrote:If I was on the design team, the codex would have been far better.

Shudder. I imagine an alternate universe with Celestine's Law instead of Draigo's...

This was a very rushed codex, I will be completely and utterly without surprise when there's no psychic defense.

You go girl!

2000 Volts:

You can use Faith in the enemies turn. Look how it is worded.

"At the start of your PHASE you generate D6 Faith"

"This is how many you have available for the TURN"

Phase = your own play phase

Turn = yours and your opponents

"Faith can be attempted before a SoB unit acts during a PHASE: Before it moves, before it shoots or strikes blows in Assault"

So we can activate our +1 Strength or +1 Initiative in our opponents PHASE.

EDIT

This is worded weirdly

"At the start of each of your Movement phases you generate D6 Faith Points" Each of whose? Mine and my opponents or each Sister squad?

"Any faith points that unused at the end of your turn are lost" Guess that blows my theory out of the water.

GW have not made it clear at all but there is a massive difference between PHASE and TURN. Turn = two phases, mine, my opponents. Faith can be used during a phase. Doesn't say who's.

grim dan: You lose all unspent faith points at the end of YOUR turn.

"Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of your turn are lost."
Emphasis mine.

Ninja'd.

See above - Your faith pool is generated at the start of your movement phase and drains at the end of your turn.

Also "turn" means your turn unless otherwise stated.

Yeah I just put that too guys.

Sorry I was quite hopeful then :(

Ok, I join Melissa - NERF'D!

And just to be clear, P9 says that whenever a rule says 'turn' it means player turn unless it specifically says game turn.

Ok Ok,

I get the point.

Phases and turns. Pfft.

The thing that we did gain, grim_dan, is the ability to try failed checks again and to use some powers multiple times and stack results.

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:If I was on the design team, the codex would have been far better.

Shudder. I imagine an alternate universe with Celestine's Law instead of Draigo's...

Oddly enough, no.

My version of Celestine is probably easier to compare to a mawloc or that DKoK drill, in that when she comes back from the dead she does so in an S3 AP- explosion centered on her model Other than that and adding Hit and Run, no major changes to her. I don't think I've added anythign similar to Draigo....

Celestians could, theoretically, be S9 and Fearless on the charge with good rolling.


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Melissia wrote:My version of Celestine is probably easier to compare to a mawloc or that DKoK drill, in that when she comes back from the dead she does so in an S3 AP- explosion centered on her model Other than that and adding Hit and Run, no major changes to her. I don't think I've added anythign similar to Draigo....

Draigo's Law is in my sig. I was more saying that everyone would cry over you the same way they do over Ward. After all, the only constant is complaint.

Yeah retrying checks is nice.

Stacking results? How do you mean...Combos with IC's and Squads?

pretre wrote:Celestians could, theoretically, be S9 and Fearless on the charge with good rolling.

But I'd rather them be S7 I5, wouldn't you?

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:Celestians could, theoretically, be S9 and Fearless on the charge with good rolling.

But I'd rather them be S7 I5, wouldn't you?

Depends on what you're charging. They can do S7 I5, Preferred Enemy with a Canoness attached, which is kinda crazy if you think about it.

Add Cannoness.

I5 then :-D

So... counts as blood angels then? Just use tac marines for sisters...

So wait a minute...

We can do the Strength +1 multiple times and it stacks!?!?

pretre wrote:Draigo's Law is in my sig. I was more saying that everyone would cry over you the same way they do over Ward. After all, the only constant is complaint.

People complain no matter what. What's important is to look at the complaints which have any smattering of validity.

For example, saying the entire PDF codex sucks without any qualifications is wrong-- Dominions and St. Celestine are both greatly improved, for example. Hell, Celestine in this codex may actually be stronger than the one in my codex (I'm actually thinking of revising my own to fit more in line with this one, because of complaints about Miraculous Intervention needing simplification) minus the lack of Hit and Run-- I wouldn't have dared give her WS/BS values above 6.

gr1m_dan wrote:So wait a minute...

We can do the Strength +1 multiple times and it stacks!?!?

In the old faith rules, it said you could only try a faith power once.

The new ones are lacking that and given the Hammerhand ruling...

Celestians are kind of crazy now.

You gotta think:
9 x Celestians (150)
2 x Meltaguns (20)
Eviscerator (25)
Jacobus (??)

On the charge, you have 32 S4 to S9 normal attacks reroll misses.
Superior throws 4 S7 to S10 Chainfist attacks reroll misses.
Jacobus throws 5 S4 to S9 normals reroll misses..
They have FNP, fearless (charge turn) and stubborn.

Hilarious. Who needs krak grenades anyways. Celestians just ripped apart an IG parking lot with their bare hands.



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Melissia wrote:Hell, Celestine in this codex may actually be stronger than the one in my codex (I'm actually thinking of revising my own to fit more in line with this one, because of complaints about Miraculous Intervention needing simplification) minus the lack of Hit and Run-- I wouldn't have dared give her WS/BS values above 6.

It makes me want to make a special marker for the spot where she fell. Since it says you need to leave a counter.

Phototoxin wrote:So... counts as blood angels then? Just use tac marines for sisters...

Emperor help me, I was considering this. I don't think I could bring myself to do it though. Even though it works so well.


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pretre wrote:Draigo's Law is in my sig.

Yeah, with no credit to the guy who came up with it.

Petre if you are correct then I just realised what section Ward wrote.

Surely that can't be right though? That's bordering insane.

Although I guess it doesn't say you can't attempt the same power twice and it doesn't stack. Like you said, especially with the Hammerhand ruling.

gr1m_dan wrote:Petre if you are correct then I just realised what section Ward wrote.

Surely that can't be right though? That's bordering insane.

Although I guess it doesn't say you can't attempt the same power twice and it doesn't stack. Like you said, especially with the Hammerhand ruling.

I wrote a post about which ones were stackable earlier.

Basically, Celestians (+1 Str) is the most abusable. Canoness (+1 I) is pretty good too. Repentia get an honorable mention for being able to get 1 attack for each time they pass their faith check. (Oh, you wiped out my squad, faith checks... They still get 1 to 6 attacks a piece. Power weapons. S6.)


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htj wrote:

pretre wrote:Draigo's Law is in my sig.

Yeah, with no credit to the guy who came up with it.

I'm pretty sure I came up with it. Are you claiming prior use?

Five internets says that this gets FAQ'd away eventually.

Melissia wrote:Five internets says that this gets FAQ'd away eventually.

Hehe. That would require effort, wouldn't it? That's kind of contrary to your earlier posts.

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:Five internets says that this gets FAQ'd away eventually.

Hehe. That would require effort, wouldn't it? That's kind of contrary to your earlier posts.

Not really, they're gonna have to change the FAQs anyway-- even if only to remove C:WH from the list.

Basically, without seeing points, I imagine something like this for my list:

Canoness
Jacobus
3 x 8 Celestians in Rhinos with good stuff
3 Priests/confessors if they make them 0-3 elites or non slot taking or something crazy.
4 BS in Immos with good stuff
1-2 Seraphim Squads with stuff
1-2 Dominions in Immos with Good stuff
3 Exorcists

Should be entertaining.

pretre wrote:Basically, without seeing points, I imagine something like this for my list:

Canoness
Jacobus
3 x 8 Celestians in Rhinos with good stuff
3 Priests/confessors if they make them 0-3 elites or non slot taking or something crazy.
4 BS in Immos with good stuff
1-2 Seraphim Squads with stuff
1-2 Dominions in Immos with Good stuff
3 Exorcists

Should be entertaining.

TBH, I actually hope Battle Sisters are 10-20, not 5-20. No need to make Sisters even MORE Marine-lite than this PDF codex already does...

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:Basically, without seeing points, I imagine something like this for my list:

Canoness
Jacobus
3 x 8 Celestians in Rhinos with good stuff
3 Priests/confessors if they make them 0-3 elites or non slot taking or something crazy.
4 BS in Immos with good stuff
1-2 Seraphim Squads with stuff
1-2 Dominions in Immos with Good stuff
3 Exorcists

Should be entertaining.

TBH, I actually hope Battle Sisters are 10-20, not 5-20. No need to make Sisters even MORE Marine-lite than this PDF codex already does...

Swap 4BS in Immos for 4 BS in Rhinos then or maybe 4 BS walking. Depends on wargear options too. Also, there's the chance that they don't need to fit in their transport, which means I could still take 10-20 and keep my Immo.

pretre wrote:

htj wrote:

pretre wrote:Draigo's Law is in my sig.

Yeah, with no credit to the guy who came up with it.

I'm pretty sure I came up with it. Are you claiming prior use?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/364734.page#2735481

pretre wrote:

htj wrote:Proposed new subset of Godwin's Law. Draigo's Law.

The longer a discussion on Dakka continues the probability that Draigo or Matt Ward will be brought up approaches 1.

edit: Messed with the wording and sigged. Thanks HTJ!

If you have seen further it was only by standing on the shoulders of giants.

htj wrote:

pretre wrote:

htj wrote:

pretre wrote:Draigo's Law is in my sig.

Yeah, with no credit to the guy who came up with it.

I'm pretty sure I came up with it. Are you claiming prior use?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/364734.page#2735481

Man, I'm getting old. My bad and my apologies.

Haha, no worries. Glad to see that it made such an impression on you.

pretre wrote:Swap 4BS in Immos for 4 BS in Rhinos then or maybe 4 BS walking. Depends on wargear options too.

More than likely we're looking at one special and one heavy or special, like before. GW could deviate, but I doubt they will. Hell they might actually go even MORE marine-lite and limit it to one heavy, one special, no two special weapon builds.

pretre wrote:Also, there's the chance that they don't need to fit in their transport, which means I could still take 10-20 and keep my Immo.

That I can see.

htj wrote:
If you have seen further it was only by standing on the shoulders of giants.

Which was actually a veiled insult from Newton where he was making fun of a colleague who was... vertically challenged who kept accusing him of stealing his ideas.

gr1m_dan wrote:
I can see why they've done it though. They realised no one hardly took Dominions and Retributors so had to think of a way to make us use them. Make each unit have unique Faith, that'll solve it...well no.

I wouldn't say that about Dominions. The guy playing Sisters at Wargamescon took 3 5 woman units with 3 meltaguns. But apparently no VSS in those units, which I found extremely odd.

gr1m_dan wrote:Melissa - you haven't seen part 2 of the Codex. You know exactly NOTHING on what we are getting. Neither do I.
I am guessing at the following for Command squads though. We have a Surgeon who is obviously going to give a squad FNP or a bubble of FNP. There is the vox caster unit too which will give us a buff to LD.
I am as mad as anyone about the removal of our old faith rules. I loved having AP1 Bolters (on 6's) and Flamers. I feel the pain of everyone but and whilst this isn't an awesome Codex it isn't AS BAD as it could have been.
Ok a 6+ Inv save is pretty gash and I hate relying on one result but it is something...it's better then NOT having it. Surely you can agree on that.

While GW could pull a fast one and surprise us, we can say with some certainty items that will and won't be in there, based on the unit entries. For instance, the lack of a psycher means likely no Force Hood (though as someone said, we may get a non-psyker equivalent), and almost certainly no Force Weapons. Again, it doesn't take a gigantic leap of logic to look at this "list", compare and contrast with existing books and our previous codex, and make an educated guess on what's coming. Frankly, I'm not expecting a whole lot in the way of spiffy new wargear, since they couldn't even be bothered to throw in new units, or even units from previous versions of SoB like Militia or Redemptionists. What wargear we do get, as you yourself even speculate, will likely be copies of items already found in the new book with maybe a few new items here and there for the facade of SoB actually being a unique army.
Saying "it isn't AS BAD as it could have been", is still admitting that it is BAD in the first place. And it is. They toned down the unique aspects of Sisters (e.g. Faith) while basically forcing them to rely on the aspects that mirror other existing and more powerful armies (e.g. Power Armor and Bolters).

pretre wrote:The thing that we did gain, grim_dan, is the ability to try failed checks again and to use some powers multiple times and stack results.

I really feel like this should be clarified. Outside of Seraphim, you don't get to retry failed checks. You can try to use the same power again, but that's not the same thing as you're still spending another Faith point to do it. And like others in this thread, I expect they'll "fix" that really fast.

pretre wrote:
Celestians are kind of crazy now.
Hilarious. Who needs krak grenades anyways. Celestians just ripped apart an IG parking lot with their bare hands.

Only if your opponent is so bad as to park all his tanks next to each other. Otherwise you get one, maybe two, before he drops an AP3 pie plate on your unit and they're obliterated.

pretre wrote:Basically, without seeing points, I imagine something like this for my list:

Canoness
Jacobus
3 x 8 Celestians in Rhinos with good stuff
3 Priests/confessors if they make them 0-3 elites or non slot taking or something crazy.
4 BS in Immos with good stuff
1-2 Seraphim Squads with stuff
1-2 Dominions in Immos with Good stuff
3 Exorcists

Should be entertaining.

I'd be surprised if Priests don't end up taking a slot like any other HQ unit. I also still find it ludicrous that our Ultra-holy-roller-super-de-duperty-faithful-oh-so-"Special" Characters don't actually have any Acts of Faith.


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The Grog wrote:

gr1m_dan wrote:
I can see why they've done it though. They realised no one hardly took Dominions and Retributors so had to think of a way to make us use them. Make each unit have unique Faith, that'll solve it...well no.

I wouldn't say that about Dominions. The guy playing Sisters at Wargamescon took 3 5 woman units with 3 meltaguns. But apparently no VSS in those units, which I found extremely odd.

Not all that odd really. Squads that size are basically suicide squads, and with 3 MGs they don't really need Divine Guidance at all. Sure you'd get the FP from the VSS (and her eventual Martyrdom) but depending on the points that's 52 points that could go somewhere else.

I routinely ran two squads of Dominions. 4 Flamers (for the lite version of the Easy Bake oven), and 4 MGs for hunting down tanks. With Scout they'll be better, but without DG the Easy Bake Lite squad is going to get dispersed into regular SoB squads.


Before getting put on my closet shelf.

I don't know, I could definitely see Priests occupying an Elites slot. The spread of FOC likelihoods does make it seem like they will be HQ choices, though.

streamdragon wrote:

pretre wrote:The thing that we did gain, grim_dan, is the ability to try failed checks again and to use some powers multiple times and stack results.

I really feel like this should be clarified. Outside of Seraphim, you don't get to retry failed checks. You can try to use the same power again, but that's not the same thing as you're still spending another Faith point to do it. And like others in this thread, I expect they'll "fix" that really fast.

Okay, my wording was poor. You get to try failed checks again by using more faith. I actually think this was intentional.

Only if your opponent is so bad as to park all his tanks next to each other. Otherwise you get one, maybe two, before he drops an AP3 pie plate on your unit and they're obliterated.

Umm. Ever play against IG before? They have a tendency to bunch up. And yes, there is a counter to everything. We can play "Pew pew, my guy does X "for the rest of the day that way. That doesn't mean that it isn't an interesting combination.

I'd be surprised if Priests don't end up taking a slot like any other HQ unit. I also still find it ludicrous that our Ultra-holy-roller-super-de-duperty-faithful-oh-so-"Special" Characters don't actually have any Acts of Faith.

Except there is quite a bit of precedence that says they may not or may be purchaseable as 0-3 for one slot. (C:Wh had no slot, C: IG (5th) no slot, C:BA and CA has 0-3 models for one slot.) The special characters instead get 'always on' abilities.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
While looking up some stuff in the 2nd ed codex, I noticed some interesting things...

Jacobus's ability to roll 2 dice for acts is from 2nd edition. Amusingly enough it is because he counts as having a Litany of Faith. Does this mean that the roll 2 dice thing may be purchaseable as wargear for other HQs? Neat.

Priests in Elites or as Non-Slot units would leave us with just the Cannoness for our HQ.

Not to mention that the Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave is basically a command squad for Priests. "Ecclesiarchy priests often gather a band of bodyguards to assist them in the execution of their duties (and heretics)."

streamdragon wrote:Priests in Elites or as Non-Slot units would leave us with just the Cannoness for our HQ.

Not to mention that the Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave is basically a command squad for Priests. "Ecclesiarchy priests often gather a band of bodyguards to assist them in the execution of their duties (and heretics)."

Well, Sisters only get one troops choice. Why not one HQ choice?

Preacher as non-slot and Confessors as HQ makes sense. Battle Conclaves are available as retinues for Confessors.

When I played MSU Immy Spam, I would run 2:2 meltaguns and flamers for Dominions. It added versatility and drew less fire to the Dominions.

pretre wrote:Okay, my wording was poor. You get to try failed checks again by using more faith. I actually think this was intentional.

I know what you meant. Like I said, I just wanted it clarified.

pretre wrote:
Umm. Ever play against IG before? They have a tendency to bunch up. And yes, there is a counter to everything. We can play "Pew pew, my guy does X "for the rest of the day that way. That doesn't mean that it isn't an interesting combination.

I've played against, with and as IG before all plenty of times. The infantry might bunch, but with the Rumbling Behemoth rule I've noticed that Leman Russ squadrons are more mobile than before. And my other comment wasn't really meant as "this will counter", but to show that you have a finite number of models to attack with, and more than likely they will not able to contact more than 1 or 2 tanks. You certainly won't be "blowing up the IG parking lot".

pretre wrote:Except there is quite a bit of precedence that says they may not or may be purchaseable as 0-3 for one slot. (C:Wh had no slot, C: IG (5th) no slot, C:BA and CA has 0-3 models for one slot.) The special characters instead get 'always on' abilities.

Possible, but I still say unlikely. While the unit type is "Ecclesiarchy Priests", these guys aren't the same as the Ministorum Priests we see elsewhere. Not to mention these guys have two different profiles like other HQ units, and as above, seem to have their own "Command Squad". These guys are almost assuredly HQ options.

pretre wrote:
Jacobus's ability to roll 2 dice for acts is from 2nd edition. Amusingly enough it is because he counts as having a Litany of Faith. Does this mean that the roll 2 dice thing may be purchaseable as wargear for other HQs? Neat.

Possibly. Litanies of Faith in the old 'Dex used to let you auto-succeed on a single AoF without using a Faith Point. I still think it's craptastical design for a piece of wargear to be almost required if you want to reliably use Acts of Faith though. "Nice But Not Required" (NBNR) is a gaming principle that seems to be thrown out the window in this 'Dex. I shouldn't be reliant on a single item for my army to function reliably, otherwise it becomes an automatic selection. The Necron Resurrection Orb is another example; how often do you see a Necron Lord without it, as it removes one of the major weaknesses of WBB? (At least, when the book was first released anyway. Haven't played against Necrons literally in years.)

pretre wrote:Preacher as non-slot and Confessors as HQ makes sense. Battle Conclaves are available as retinues for Confessors.

This is what I gathered when I read the dual entry. Confessors are HQ choices which let you take a Battle Conclave for access to some CC punch, Priests are add in elites (or HQ's) that give a bonus to the squad they are attached to (and likely can take a few pieces of unique wargear, perhaps the vaunted possible anti-psyker item) but don't take up a slot or are multiples to the slot. Considering we have Ward and Cruddace as authors, who have both used the add-in character route in their codices, I'm pretty sure that is how they will work.

I still feel like people are selling this codex a bit short without wargear/options/prices. I was considering whether or not any 5th edition codex would look that great given just what we have access to here, and I don't think you get a very good picture of power level from it. I also think its wargear that adds a low of flavor to an army (think the different Ordo Inquisitors in the GK codex, or the Wargear and Sagas in the Space Wolf Codex or even the arcane wargear from the Dark Eldar codex. Yes, this is a WD codex and isn't likely to be as broad or interesting as those ones, of that we can be sure, however we still need to see it and make a real judgment then. As someone mentioned, one piece of wargear that lets squads share acts of faith with any other faithful squad in 6" already makes the faith system far more dynamic.

htj wrote:

streamdragon wrote:Priests in Elites or as Non-Slot units would leave us with just the Cannoness for our HQ.

Not to mention that the Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave is basically a command squad for Priests. "Ecclesiarchy priests often gather a band of bodyguards to assist them in the execution of their duties (and heretics)."

Well, Sisters only get one troops choice. Why not one HQ choice?

Many are thinking that Celestians will end up as troops, which I agree with myself. If they'd been above the Battle Sisters, the argument of them being Elites would be a bit stronger, but they're not. They're separated from Penitent Engines and Repentia.

pretre wrote:Preacher as non-slot and Confessors as HQ makes sense. Battle Conclaves are available as retinues for Confessors.

You really think GW will split a unit description like that? With separate rules for each line of a stat block?

streamdragon wrote:

pretre wrote:Except there is quite a bit of precedence that says they may not or may be purchaseable as 0-3 for one slot. (C:Wh had no slot, C: IG (5th) no slot, C:BA and CA has 0-3 models for one slot.) The special characters instead get 'always on' abilities.

Possible, but I still say unlikely. While the unit type is "Ecclesiarchy Priests", these guys aren't the same as the Ministorum Priests we see elsewhere. Not to mention these guys have two different profiles like other HQ units, and as above, seem to have their own "Command Squad". These guys are almost assuredly HQ options.

I think I'll prove to be right here. The preacher is an upgrade character statline. There's no normal HQ that's 1W (that I can think of, someone will prove me wrong).

pretre wrote:Jacobus's ability to roll 2 dice for acts is from 2nd edition. Amusingly enough it is because he counts as having a Litany of Faith. Does this mean that the roll 2 dice thing may be purchaseable as wargear for other HQs? Neat.

Possibly. Litanies of Faith in the old 'Dex used to let you auto-succeed on a single AoF without using a Faith Point.

Right, but the point I was making is that they went back to 2nd edition for his rules which happen to match a piece of wargear. I'm fairly certain I know what LoF from the current dex does.

I still think it's craptastical design for a piece of wargear to be almost required if you want to reliably use Acts of Faith though.

5+ Normally. 4+ if you have a squad leader. That's 50/50. 3+ if you have any casualties since the start of the game. 2/3 Chance now. It's looking pretty reliable. I bet that Sim Imp allows two dice for that roll or +1 to it, as well.

And now that I look, preachers aren't listed in the AoF section for ICs that help with faith. I am positive they're not full HQs now.

Magister187 wrote:

pretre wrote:Preacher as non-slot and Confessors as HQ makes sense. Battle Conclaves are available as retinues for Confessors.

This is what I gathered when I read the dual entry. Confessors are HQ choices which let you take a Battle Conclave for access to some CC punch, Priests are add in elites (or HQ's) that give a bonus to the squad they are attached to (and likely can take a few pieces of unique wargear, perhaps the vaunted possible anti-psyker item) but don't take up a slot or are multiples to the slot. Considering we have Ward and Cruddace as authors, who have both used the add-in character route in their codices, I'm pretty sure that is how they will work.

I still feel like people are selling this codex a bit short without wargear/options/prices. I was considering whether or not any 5th edition codex would look that great given just what we have access to here, and I don't think you get a very good picture of power level from it. I also think its wargear that adds a low of flavor to an army (think the different Ordo Inquisitors in the GK codex, or the Wargear and Sagas in the Space Wolf Codex or even the arcane wargear from the Dark Eldar codex. Yes, this is a WD codex and isn't likely to be as broad or interesting as those ones, of that we can be sure, however we still need to see it and make a real judgment then. As someone mentioned, one piece of wargear that lets squads share acts of faith with any other faithful squad in 6" already makes the faith system far more dynamic.

Considering how stripped down the unit descriptions are, I'm not holding out any hope for an expansive wargear section. Especially once they take the time to stat out all the common weapons we know will be in there like bolters, flamers, meltaguns, power weapons, eviscerators, laspistols, bolt pistols, heavy flamers, heavy bolters, multi-meltas, etc. etc. etc. and on and on and on.

As to the "piece of wargear that lets squads share acts of faith..." ... It shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't. If they wanted units to share Acts of Faith, they should have just damn well made a generic list JUST LIKE THE EXISTING CODEX. But they didn't. Shoehorning a piece of wargear that I'd basically be required to take would just be an insanely idiotic move at this point. (insert usual "that's why it'll happen!" here I suppose? )

"You can be somewhat close to what you were, as long as you pay points for it." Is really unacceptable.

streamdragon wrote:

pretre wrote:Preacher as non-slot and Confessors as HQ makes sense. Battle Conclaves are available as retinues for Confessors.

You really think GW will split a unit description like that? With separate rules for each line of a stat block?

Yes.

Yeah, that's something GW would do.

streamdragon wrote:As to the "piece of wargear that lets squads share acts of faith..." ... It shouldn't be necessary. It shouldn't. If they wanted units to share Acts of Faith, they should have just damn well made a generic list JUST LIKE THE EXISTING CODEX. But they didn't. Shoehorning a piece of wargear that I'd basically be required to take would just be an insanely idiotic move at this point. (insert usual "that's why it'll happen!" here I suppose? )

Settle down, Beavis. How about we wait until the rest of it comes out before we get all caps lock on it?

"You can be somewhat close to what you were, as long as you pay points for it." Is really unacceptable.

Except it isn't. What if they are giving you the option to not pay for faith if you don't want to.

SabrX brought up MSU Immo spam. Paying for faith was not something you did with that kind of list. In fact, you took the cheapest possible units without faith and maxmized vehicles. So would you want to pay a premium for divine guidance in that list? Not really.

Do I think that some piece of wargear is going to allow AoF sharing? Nope. But is it possible? Yep. Will we know until the second part comes out? No, we won't. Everything is on the table and on a discussion board we should talk about it.

Isn't that how the Blood Angels Chaplain/Reclusiarch and the IG's Lord Commissar / Commissar is laid out?

Compel wrote:Isn't that how the Blood Angels Chaplain/Reclusiarch and the IG's Lord Commissar / Commissar is laid out?

In regard to the Commissar, yeah.

Compel wrote:Isn't that how the Blood Angels Chaplain/Reclusiarch and the IG's Lord Commissar / Commissar is laid out?

Oh snap, he got served!

It's also possible that GW will give Sisters a piece of wargear that says "Roll D6. On a roll of 6, you win the game." Stop saying "it's possible", it's kinda pointless.

pretre wrote:I think I'll prove to be right here. The preacher is an upgrade character statline. There's no normal HQ that's 1W (that I can think of, someone will prove me wrong).

Right, but the point I was making is that they went back to 2nd edition for his rules which happen to match a piece of wargear. I'm fairly certain I know what LoF from the current dex does.

5+ Normally. 4+ if you have a squad leader. That's 50/50. 3+ if you have any casualties since the start of the game. 2/3 Chance now. It's looking pretty reliable. I bet that Sim Imp allows two dice for that roll or +1 to it, as well.

And now that I look, preachers aren't listed in the AoF section for ICs that help with faith. I am positive they're not full HQs now.

Hm, the preachers will be an interesting point then. The Battle Conclave entry mentions them being bodyguards for "Ecclesiarchy Preists" though, not specifically ever mentioning the Confessor. Preachers are still "Ecclesiarchy Priests".

And I more meant having enough Faith to actually use a power. It's possible that Jacobus's special rules basically emulate certain wargear items, though it brings his own power down if I can get those abilities without him. Most other armies can reliably count on their special rules, Sisters seem to be an exception. We'll have to make sure we have both enough Faith Points AND a decent chance at success. Granted, we have yet to see with the Simulacrum does and I agree it probably will modify either the number of FP we get or the actual activation roll.

Melissia wrote:It's also possible that GW will give Sisters a piece of wargear that says "Roll D6. On a roll of 6, you win the game." Stop saying "it's possible", it's kinda pointless.

Okay, but some possibilities are more probable than others.

Litanies of Faith: Roll 2d6 for Faith Checks. Probable, with precedent.
Litanies of Faith: Automatically succeed on one faith check per game. Probable, with precedent.
Simulacrum Imperialis: Roll 2d6 for Faith Checks. Probable, with precedent.
Simulacrum Imperialis: Share AoF within 6". Improbable, some precedent for power bubbles.
Laud Hailers: -1 to Enemy Ld within 6/12/24". Probable, with precedent
Melissia's Book of Win: Roll a d6. On a roll of 6, you win the game. Improbable, no precedent.


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streamdragon wrote:And I more meant having enough Faith to actually use a power.

I stand by by assertion that Faith will be more common than current when the rest of it comes out.

My guess is that something will allow us to roll an extra die and keep the highest or add +1 to the roll every turn, whether it is Simulacrum, Holy Relic or whatever. So for example, for every Sim Imp or Holy Relic you get +1 to your AoF roll every turn. So 5 Holy Relics = D6 +5.

Ooh, that's a good one. Holy Icon/Relic, +1 to faith checks for models within 6/12/whatever. Precedent and somewhat probable. Neat.

We will see though.

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's also possible that GW will give Sisters a piece of wargear that says "Roll D6. On a roll of 6, you win the game." Stop saying "it's possible", it's kinda pointless.

Okay, but some possibilities are more probable than others.

Litanies of Faith: Roll 2d6 for Faith Checks. Probable, with precedent.
Litanies of Faith: Automatically succeed on one faith check per game. Probable, with precedent.
Simulacrum Imperialis: Roll 2d6 for Faith Checks. Probable, with precedent.
Simulacrum Imperialis: Share AoF within 6". Improbable, some precedent for power bubbles.
Laud Hailers: -1 to Enemy Ld within 6/12/24". Probable, with precedent
Melissia's Book of Win: Roll a d6. On a roll of 6, you win the game. Improbable, no precedent.

There's also precedent for the removal of wargear choices, too.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:It's also possible that GW will give Sisters a piece of wargear that says "Roll D6. On a roll of 6, you win the game." Stop saying "it's possible", it's kinda pointless.

Okay, but some possibilities are more probable than others.

Litanies of Faith: Roll 2d6 for Faith Checks. Probable, with precedent.
Litanies of Faith: Automatically succeed on one faith check per game. Probable, with precedent.
Simulacrum Imperialis: Roll 2d6 for Faith Checks. Probable, with precedent.
Simulacrum Imperialis: Share AoF within 6". Improbable, some precedent for power bubbles.
Laud Hailers: -1 to Enemy Ld within 6/12/24". Probable, with precedent
Melissia's Book of Win: Roll a d6. On a roll of 6, you win the game. Improbable, no precedent.

There's also precedent for the removal of wargear choices, too.

Exactly. But we won't know until we get there. So you saying X will or won't be in the book and because of that we are doomed is kind of pointless too, isn't it. Speculation, on the other hand is part of the whole news and rumors thang.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, that's something GW would do.

yeah... that was sort of a dumb question on my part...

pretre wrote:Settle down, Beavis. How about we wait until the rest of it comes out before we get all caps lock on it?

If I'm Beavis, that makes you Butthead.

Except it isn't. What if they are giving you the option to not pay for faith if you don't want to.

SabrX brought up MSU Immo spam. Paying for faith was not something you did with that kind of list. In fact, you took the cheapest possible units without faith and maxmized vehicles. So would you want to pay a premium for divine guidance in that list? Not really.

Do I think that some piece of wargear is going to allow AoF sharing? Nope. But is it possible? Yep. Will we know until the second part comes out? No, we won't. Everything is on the table and on a discussion board we should talk about it.

If what is supposed to be our main "feature" is really so easily ignorable, then there's something wrong with it. Sure, you can play SM-Razor-Spam-Lite if you want, go for it.

If I wanted to, I could build an IG force that doesn't use orders at all. Does that mean IG orders should come down to Faith's level? I'd hope not.

As for "on a discussion board we should talk about it", you're the one telling us to be quiet until we get everything...

pretre wrote:

Compel wrote:Isn't that how the Blood Angels Chaplain/Reclusiarch and the IG's Lord Commissar / Commissar is laid out?

Oh snap, he got served!

Considering I've already conceded the point, I'm not sure "served" is appropriate. Also, the entry for Lord Commissar/Commissar separates rules for the HQ and non HQ versions; that's not present here. Beyond an improved statline, the Confessor has the same rules as a Preacher? Makes for a lame HQ slot then. (Lemme guess: But Wargear will fix it!)



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pretre wrote:I stand by by assertion that Faith will be more common than current when the rest of it comes out.
My guess is that something will allow us to roll an extra die and keep the highest or add +1 to the roll every turn, whether it is Simulacrum, Holy Relic or whatever. So for example, for every Sim Imp or Holy Relic you get +1 to your AoF roll every turn. So 5 Holy Relics = D6 +5.
Ooh, that's a good one. Holy Icon/Relic, +1 to faith checks for models within 6/12/whatever. Precedent and somewhat probable. Neat.
We will see though.

Considering we are no longer to use Faith during half the game, I'm going to disagree with you right off the bat. I'm also disagreeing that we'll see an expansive wargear section. Sure, we'll probably get a handful of items that change Acts of Faith when they (hopefully) realize how terrible their first run system is. Probably not enough to make it really viable or competitive though, especially with the general drop in the power of Acts.

streamdragon wrote:If I'm Beavis, that makes you Butthead.

Yeah, that's how that quote works. GJ!

If what is supposed to be our main "feature" is really so easily ignorable, then there's something wrong with it. Sure, you can play SM-Razor-Spam-Lite if you want, go for it.

It has been ignorable since C:WH came out. C:WH made it so that faith was a completely skippable part of the army list. Sooo yeah.

As for "on a discussion board we should talk about it", you're the one telling us to be quiet until we get everything...

No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

Also, the entry for Lord Commissar/Commissar separates rules for the HQ and non HQ versions; that's not present here. Beyond an improved statline, the Confessor has the same rules as a Preacher? Makes for a lame HQ slot then. (Lemme guess: But Wargear will fix it!)

The only difference between LC and Comm is Leadership bubble and IC special rule. It isn't a stretch. And yes, I think that the difference in what items you can choose will make a lot of the difference between Conf and Preacher. Just like it does for LC vs Commissar.

Hard to tell if it is a lame slot until we actually see 1) what slot they fill and 2) what their actual rules are. But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence.


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streamdragon wrote:Considering we are no longer to use Faith during half the game, I'm going to disagree with you right off the bat. I'm also disagreeing that we'll see an expansive wargear section. Sure, we'll probably get a handful of items that change Acts of Faith when they (hopefully) realize how terrible their first run system is. Probably not enough to make it really viable or competitive though, especially with the general drop in the power of Acts.

We'll just have to wait and see then. I think with faith stacking and wargear choices, faith will still be very viable. It is very possible that I am wrong, however. Guess we won't know until we see the other half of the article.

pretre wrote:No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

Manchu wrote:[note: previous mod warning to everyone in this thread]On that same note, calling someone's thoughts "hysterics," claiming that their opinion is tantamount to saying "the sky is falling," or dismissing them as being in "panic mode" are all pretty rude, too. I know we all want to be pithy but this kind of stuff is pretty well flamebait and can also get your account suspended.

I should jsut start reporting your posts if you're going to resort to trolling like that, Pretre.

pretre wrote:I think I'll prove to be right here. The preacher is an upgrade character statline. There's no normal HQ that's 1W (that I can think of, someone will prove me wrong).

He's probably not an upgrade. The sanguinary Priest is an Elite and not an upgrade and he is only slightly better than a normal marine. He can be taken up to 3 times for a single force org slot. The Priest has 1 wound but 2 attacks and +1 WS over a normal marine. Naturally he has his cool ability which functions all the time for the low low price of 50 points. He has a few wargear options too. My guess is the Preacher will be the same and the Confessor will be a full HQ. We'll know in month who can take a Battle Conclave and what options they will have. While I am down with the rules for a Battle Conclave and will probably use 1 or 2, I don't like the idea behind it. My guess is that only Confessors will be able to, but I could be wrong. Something like the acolyte from GK coudl have been inserted in the Conclave to give a nod to Frateris Militia but they dropped the ball on that. No big deal as it was hardly worth taking.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

Manchu wrote:[note: previous mod warning to everyone in this thread]On that same note, calling someone's thoughts "hysterics," claiming that their opinion is tantamount to saying "the sky is falling," or dismissing them as being in "panic mode" are all pretty rude, too. I know we all want to be pithy but this kind of stuff is pretty well flamebait and can also get your account suspended.

I should jsut start reporting your posts if you're going to resort to trolling like that, Pretre.

Go for it. My response is specific to a point that he made to me. Note that I am saying that about responses in general and not about any specific person. Here, let me save you the trouble. I'll just report this post and they can take action against me as appropriate if it is trolling.

<broadcast mode active: how about you all get back on topic, instead, before we have to take action?>

andrewm9 wrote:He's probably not an upgrade. The sanguinary Priest is an Elite and not an upgrade and he is only slightly better than a normal marine.

Truuuuuue.... but he's also not as beneficial as the sanguinary priest.

Melissia wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:He's probably not an upgrade. The sanguinary Priest is an Elite and not an upgrade and he is only slightly better than a normal marine.

Truuuuuue.... but he's also not as beneficial as the sanguinary priest.

That just means he will be cheaper but not by much I bet. He's virtually identical to the Ministorum Priest in the IG codex except for his improved initiative of 4. Those guys are 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest. So its anybody's guess as to what he will cost. He might be 75 points becuase he also has an extra 6+ invuln save for shield of faith (this can't be taken away by the Vindicare) or he might 25 points because his buff is less useful to the army overall who knows.

pretre wrote:It has been ignorable since C:WH came out. C:WH made it so that faith was a completely skippable part of the army list. Sooo yeah.

No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

The only difference between LC and Comm is Leadership bubble and IC special rule. It isn't a stretch. And yes, I think that the difference in what items you can choose will make a lot of the difference between Conf and Preacher. Just like it does for LC vs Commissar.

Hard to tell if it is a lame slot until we actually see 1) what slot they fill and 2) what their actual rules are. But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence.

We'll just have to wait and see then. I think with faith stacking and wargear choices, faith will still be very viable. It is very possible that I am wrong, however. Guess we won't know until we see the other half of the article.

1. Ignoring Faith in C:WH (when fielding Sisters, obviously) made your armor noticeably weaker. Far more noticeable than the new system, as the power level of Acts of Faith was far, far greater. Thus, ignoring it had a cost, as it should being the main feature that separates Sisters from other, similar armies. It is, and should be, central to the army. Which means it should be a reliable system outside of wargear and special characters.

2. And yet we put forward discussion points on current data, to be met with "No point in discussing it now, we don't have all the information."

3. There are no weapon options available to a Lord Commisar that are not available to a regular Commisar aside from Melta Bombs (which are available to the Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad Sergeants). The main difference between the LC/C and the Confessor/Preacher is that a regular Commisar is NOT an IC, while a Preacher IS. So while you can use a Commisar for both his special rules AND as a hidden PF/PW, the same can not be said of the Preacher, who unlike his C:WH predecessor is an IC.

4. "But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence." Considering I've been discussing what evidence we have, rather than the hypothetical wargear that might fix our problems, I think I will. Better than burying my head in the "wargear/points will fix it!" sand.

5. I still disagree on Faith. I think it's power level has been dramatically reduced. As I said, it should be central to the army. That's what Sisters are all about: Faith. And yet, we have this.

Unrelated to the quote. I'm not even sure sharing Divine Guidance would make me take Retributors over an Exorcist. Unless the range to share is more than 12" or so, it means either my Battle Sisters are sitting in the back, or my Retributors are up front not far from assault range. It also means my Flamer Dominions would almost never be in range, which would be far more useful than even the Battle Sisters being in range.

streamdragon wrote:1. Ignoring Faith in C:WH (when fielding Sisters, obviously) made your armor noticeably weaker. Far more noticeable than the new system, as the power level of Acts of Faith was far, far greater. Thus, ignoring it had a cost, as it should being the main feature that separates Sisters from other, similar armies. It is, and should be, central to the army. Which means it should be a reliable system outside of wargear and special characters.

One of the most successful builds for C:WH completely ignored faith. I'm not passing judgement on that, but it is a fact.

3. There are no weapon options available to a Lord Commisar that are not available to a regular Commisar aside from Melta Bombs (which are available to the Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad Sergeants).

No, but there are wargear differences. Camo cloak is a big deal. LC also starts with a Ref Field.

4. "But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence." Considering I've been discussing what evidence we have, rather than the hypothetical wargear that might fix our problems, I think I will.

I have said that wargear could fix it. I have also said that it could not. My central point is that you cannot determine the competitiveness of the SOB WD codex when you only have half of it. You appear to think differently.

Better than burying my head in the "wargear/points will fix it!" sand.

See Manchu/Janthkin's admonitions earlier.

Unrelated to the quote. I'm not even sure sharing Divine Guidance would make me take Retributors over an Exorcist. Unless the range to share is more than 12" or so, it means either my Battle Sisters are sitting in the back, or my Retributors are up front not far from assault range. It also means my Flamer Dominions would almost never be in range, which would be far more useful than even the Battle Sisters being in range.

I agree here. I don't think that the sharing thing will happen and I doubt I would take it if it did. Keep in mind that Retributors will probably have the option for Heavy Flamers and Immos though, based on what we've seen so far.

streamdragon wrote:

pretre wrote:It has been ignorable since C:WH came out. C:WH made it so that faith was a completely skippable part of the army list. Sooo yeah.

No, you'll notice that I'm all about the discussion. I am less about the OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING which doesn't really contribute much.

The only difference between LC and Comm is Leadership bubble and IC special rule. It isn't a stretch. And yes, I think that the difference in what items you can choose will make a lot of the difference between Conf and Preacher. Just like it does for LC vs Commissar.

Hard to tell if it is a lame slot until we actually see 1) what slot they fill and 2) what their actual rules are. But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence.

We'll just have to wait and see then. I think with faith stacking and wargear choices, faith will still be very viable. It is very possible that I am wrong, however. Guess we won't know until we see the other half of the article.

1. Ignoring Faith in C:WH (when fielding Sisters, obviously) made your armor noticeably weaker. Far more noticeable than the new system, as the power level of Acts of Faith was far, far greater. Thus, ignoring it had a cost, as it should being the main feature that separates Sisters from other, similar armies. It is, and should be, central to the army. Which means it should be a reliable system outside of wargear and special characters.

2. And yet we put forward discussion points on current data, to be met with "No point in discussing it now, we don't have all the information."

3. There are no weapon options available to a Lord Commisar that are not available to a regular Commisar aside from Melta Bombs (which are available to the Platoon Commander and Infantry Squad Sergeants). The main difference between the LC/C and the Confessor/Preacher is that a regular Commisar is NOT an IC, while a Preacher IS. So while you can use a Commisar for both his special rules AND as a hidden PF/PW, the same can not be said of the Preacher, who unlike his C:WH predecessor is an IC.

4. "But go ahead and assume based on partial evidence." Considering I've been discussing what evidence we have, rather than the hypothetical wargear that might fix our problems, I think I will. Better than burying my head in the "wargear/points will fix it!" sand.

5. I still disagree on Faith. I think it's power level has been dramatically reduced. As I said, it should be central to the army. That's what Sisters are all about: Faith. And yet, we have this.

Unrelated to the quote. I'm not even sure sharing Divine Guidance would make me take Retributors over an Exorcist. Unless the range to share is more than 12" or so, it means either my Battle Sisters are sitting in the back, or my Retributors are up front not far from assault range. It also means my Flamer Dominions would almost never be in range, which would be far more useful than even the Battle Sisters being in range.

1. I think wargear choices tieing into the main theme of an army makes a lot of sense and adds to the customization of the army, but I think that just boils down to differences in taste.
2. I think some of the discussion has been very constructive, I think dismissing the army to being uncompetitive and pointing only to why you think this is so is not really discussion, especially when it is largely regarded that most of the rules so far have been significant changes compared to C:WH, like removing Inquistorial elements and changing the faith system. Obviously, these are bad news for people who really enjoyed those aspects.
3. Regular Commissars can't take Power Fists or Camo Cloaks, nor can they have the refractor shield; regardless, it doesn't mean the difference in wargear here needs to mimic that relationship, they could have dedicated items (Relics) for only Confessors and Cannonesses to take, leaving the lowly preachers to take more basic equipment.
4. Still missing the point. 1/2 a codex.
5. Yeah, its power level is far lower, I don't believe people really disagree with that sentiment. That being said, it still may be a very important component to the army, based on other factors that are of yet unknown.

pretre wrote:One of the most successful builds for C:WH completely ignored faith. I'm not passing judgement on that, but it is a fact.

No, but there are wargear differences. Camo cloak is a big deal. LC also starts with a Ref Field.

I have said that wargear could fix it. I have also said that it could not. My central point is that you cannot determine the competitiveness of the SOB WD codex when you only have half of it. You appear to think differently.

I agree here. I don't think that the sharing thing will happen and I doubt I would take it if it did. Keep in mind that Retributors will probably have the option for Heavy Flamers and Immos though, based on what we've seen so far.

1. Which build would that be? (Honestly asking)

2. The refractor field is less useful than NOT being an IC, IMO. The L.Com has a 5++, but the regular Com has up to 50 bodies around him that have to be killed first.

3. I have said this based on several points that I would hope we can agree that wargear can't fix:
a. Battle Sisters are less powerful than before. This is nigh on fact at this point, mostly due to:
b. Acts of Faith are less powerful than before. This is both in terms of actual effect, and in terms of availability with no unit being able to have more than 2 available to it.
c. Faith is less dependable than before. The number of Faith points is random, and can not be used on the enemy's turn.

4. Heavy Flamers back on Retributors would be a good step, but I still wouldn't take them over the current Exorcist. In fact, it would require a serious nerf to the Exorcist for me to consider it. (Or Exorcist squadrons, which I haven't ruled out just yet...)

streamdragon wrote:1. Which build would that be? (Honestly asking)

Immolator Spam

2. The refractor field is less useful than NOT being an IC, IMO. The L.Com has a 5++, but the regular Com has up to 50 bodies around him that have to be killed first.

Sure, but it is a difference, which is what we were talking about.

3. I have said this based on several points that I would hope we can agree that wargear can't fix:

Umm. Wargear might not, but unit entries and points costs could.

a. Battle Sisters are less powerful than before. This is nigh on fact at this point, mostly due to:
b. Acts of Faith are less powerful than before. This is both in terms of actual effect, and in terms of availability with no unit being able to have more than 2 available to it.
c. Faith is less dependable than before. The number of Faith points is random, and can not be used on the enemy's turn.

Faith is less powerful, so far. BS aren't less powerful because we don't know what options are available or what their cost will be.

4. Heavy Flamers back on Retributors would be a good step, but I still wouldn't take them over the current Exorcist. In fact, it would require a serious nerf to the Exorcist for me to consider it. (Or Exorcist squadrons, which I haven't ruled out just yet...)

Agreed. I haven't had any heavy but an exorcist since back in C: CA days.

Magister187 wrote:
1. I think wargear choices tieing into the main theme of an army makes a lot of sense and adds to the customization of the army, but I think that just boils down to differences in taste.
2. I think some of the discussion has been very constructive, I think dismissing the army to being uncompetitive and pointing only to why you think this is so is not really discussion, especially when it is largely regarded that most of the rules so far have been significant changes compared to C:WH, like removing Inquistorial elements and changing the faith system. Obviously, these are bad news for people who really enjoyed those aspects.
3. Regular Commissars can't take Power Fists or Camo Cloaks, nor can they have the refractor shield; regardless, it doesn't mean the difference in wargear here needs to mimic that relationship, they could have dedicated items (Relics) for only Confessors and Cannonesses to take, leaving the lowly preachers to take more basic equipment.
4. Still missing the point. 1/2 a codex.
5. Yeah, its power level is far lower, I don't believe people really disagree with that sentiment. That being said, it still may be a very important component to the army, based on other factors that are of yet unknown.

1. When a piece of wargear slightly boosts a functional rule, that's fine (See: Vox Caster, Wolf Pelt). Reducing the power of a special rule, and then supplying wargear to boost it to where it should have been in the first place is not. Imagine reducing the Synapse range of every Synapse Creature in the Nid Codex by 6", then adding a Biomorph in that boosted it back up to where it was.

2. I can only state my opinions on things, complete with arguments. That's sort of how discussion works is it not? I've pointed out how the Faith system has been dramatically weakened with my supporting arguments.

3. Regular Commisars can take a Power Fist for 15 points. Again, if I have to buy a Relic to separate my Confessor from a Preacher (other than stat line), there's a problem. The Confessor should be more stirring than a lowly Preacher, especially if he's an HQ chioce; currently he is not. He is exactly as stirring, but slightly tougher. If his sole difference is that he can take the Ecclesiarchy Battle Unit, then I'll be doubly underwhelmed. I expect to be so.

4. I'm not missing the point. It's basically a statement that there is no reasonable wargear option that could save what I see to be a glaringly underpowered codex.

5. Unless this WD Dex is a completely distinct format from existing Dexes, we've seen just about all there is for unit special rules. It's possible there will be a section labeled "Generic Acts of Faith", but all rationality says that section would have been in the preview pages we've already seen. It's possible there is some unique item available to a Confessor that will be game-changing, but unique items are now described with the unit that can take them, instead of the general wargear section.

streamdragon wrote:
4. I'm not missing the point. It's basically a statement that there is no reasonable wargear option that could save what I see to be a glaringly underpowered codex.

Of course not, but reasonable wargear combined with unit entries, options and points costs could potentially make it a well balanced codex. That's our contention.

No one is actually saying 'Wargear alone will fix everything!' We're saying that half of the codex, the half with points costs, unit entries, force org slots, unit options, wargear lists and options, etc is not available. If you were to pick up C: IG and only read pages 1-67, you would have no idea whether it is a good codex or competitive or not. That is where we are right now.

pretre wrote:1. Immolator Spam

2. Sure, but it is a difference, which is what we were talking about.

3. Umm. Wargear might not, but unit entries and points costs could.

3a. Faith is less powerful, so far. BS aren't less powerful because we don't know what options are available or what their cost will be.

1. Perhaps it's just my meta, but Immo. spam would get torn apart quickly, not to mention the issue of claiming objectives. I always got way more mileage out of an easy bake than an immolator.

2. My point was that the difference in IC status was FAR more important to the L.Com/Com distinction than gear. The Preacher lacks that distinction, being an IC.

3. No, it couldn't. For reasons I've already stated. Cheaper just means cheaper. Unit entries might theoretically contain some saving grace, but in all likelihood will not as the current Codex Format means we would have seen anything worth seeing.

3a. If Faith is weaker, then Battle Sisters (being users of the Faith system) are by definition weaker. It's like saying Battle Sisters didn't get nerfed if they nerfed Bolters. They would be.

streamdragon wrote:1. Perhaps it's just my meta, but Immo. spam would get torn apart quickly, not to mention the issue of claiming objectives. I always got way more mileage out of an easy bake than an immolator.

I think you underestimate 11-15 AV11 hulls, all with melta in them, but whatever. Check the BR forum or some of the placings for national GTs. Immo spam did well.

3. No, it couldn't. For reasons I've already stated. Cheaper just means cheaper. Unit entries might theoretically contain some saving grace, but in all likelihood will not as the current Codex Format means we would have seen anything worth seeing.

I don't know how to explain this to you any other way. Redbeard explained it using the changes to ork boyz, which were a nerf. Even though all of their abilities were nerfed, their cost makes them one of the most cost effective units in the game now. Hence more competitive.

Again, go look at pages 1-67 of C: IG and tell me if the dex is competitive or not without looking at the rest. You couldn't. Pages 1-67 contain the same sections that the first WD contained for sisters. Army general rules and unit descriptions/statlines. It does not contain points costs, FOC or all the other business that is necessary to build an army.

3a. If Faith is weaker, then Battle Sisters (being users of the Faith system) are by definition weaker. It's like saying Battle Sisters didn't get nerfed if they nerfed Bolters. They would be.

Unless they also got buffed somewhere else.

pretre wrote:
No one is actually saying 'Wargear alone will fix everything!' We're saying that half of the codex, the half with points costs, unit entries, force org slots, unit options, wargear lists and options, etc is not available. If you were to pick up C: IG and only read pages 1-67, you would have no idea whether it is a good codex or competitive or not. That is where we are right now.

And as I've said before, I can take the half I have now. I can combine it with knowledge of the previous versions, the current game rules, the current game environment/meta and the competing forces to make the statement "this book is a step down; it will not be competitive". I could do the same thing with the 'Nid codex. Hell, looking at the unit entries for the 'Nid codex only made that book worse!

Edit to fix my quote tags.

streamdragon wrote:and as I've said before, I can take the half I have now. I can combine it with knowledge of the previous versions, the current game rules, the current game environment/meta and the competing forces to make the statement "this book is a step down; it will not be competitive". I could do the same thing with the 'Nid codex. Hell, looking at the unit entries for the 'Nid codex only made that book worse!

Then you are a magical predictor of the future. Because if you could predict IG platoons, squadroned Vendettas, LR Squadrons, HWT 0-5 just from the unit entries, you were ahead of every single other person who played the game. If you could predict from the unit entries in the Nid codex that the points costs on all MCs would be cranked through the roof, then again you are magical and should start playing the lottery.

Those things were not indicated by the unit entries, or indeed expected by the community.

streamdragon wrote:
3. Regular Commisars can take a Power Fist for 15 points. Again, if I have to buy a Relic to separate my Confessor from a Preacher (other than stat line), there's a problem. The Confessor should be more stirring than a lowly Preacher, especially if he's an HQ chioce; currently he is not. He is exactly as stirring, but slightly tougher. If his sole difference is that he can take the Ecclesiarchy Battle Unit, then I'll be doubly underwhelmed. I expect to be so.

You win, the regular commissars attached to the 5 man unblobbable command squads can take a power fist. The ones people actually take cannot.
The confessors stats, slot and wargear options would be the difference. It would be exactly like the relationship between Chaplains and Reclusiarchs in the Blood Angel Codex.

Last post for a bit. Leaving the office.

pretre wrote:I don't know how to explain this to you any other way. Redbeard explained it using the changes to ork boyz, which were a nerf. Even though all of their abilities were nerfed, their cost makes them one of the most cost effective units in the game now. Hence more competitive.

3a. If Faith is weaker, then Battle Sisters (being users of the Faith system) are by definition weaker. It's like saying Battle Sisters didn't get nerfed if they nerfed Bolters. They would be.

Unless they also got buffed somewhere else.

streamdragon wrote:Actually, looking through C:IG tells me a whole lot about the power level of the codex, simply by looking at the numerous special rules, weapon descriptions (Chem cannon!), orders, characters and general feel of the book. Compare the pages of C:IG to this Dex, even just a few units from C:IG and hopefully you can see why I think this Dex is underpowered. There are no special rules worth speaking of, no Acts that stand out, no unit choices that are new and exciting like there would have been if looking through the first pages of C:IG. There's nothing, not even remotely the same feel, power, variety (even if you limit the C:IG units you look at). Even the new SoB characters are dull in comparison. That's what I can look at and feel confident in saying my SoB will almost assuredly end up on the closet shelf.

/facepalm
I give up. Your cognitive powers and powers of prediction are prodigious. If you can decide how powerful or not a codex will be without looking at points costs, force org, unit options, configurations, etc., then there's nothing I can do to change your mind, nor should I.

All I can do is encourage you to use your super powers as a force of good in the world rather than evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'll give a pass on the rest of this thread for the same reason. If you all can tell what is good or not based on only half a codex, than who am I to argue.

I guess we'll see who's right when the second half comes out and people either do well competitively with it or not.

Keep the faith.

Dragon's point is you read through the IG rules and see things that make you go "that needs to be expensive!".

You read through the sisters book and see things that make you go "that needs to be cheap."

Is it enough to rule out the entire book? No. Is it starting out on a bad foot? I think so.

It is possible that the second part of the codex will somehow make this list exciting, but again all we have is what is out now and that is dissapointing. I am totally willing to entertain the possibility that in a month I will be eating my words and wondering how I could have ever doubted how awesome this WDex could be. But what I have to go on so far isn't selling me on the idea. There are a few improvements, but even more dissapointments.

Sisters had some things that were unique to them, but over the years we have been wittled down to Seraphim and Acts of Faith. Everything else seems to turn up in some marine list or another.

Now the Acts have been made unreliable (aka streamlined). The few perks don't really make the nerfs palatible to me.

The Cannoness has a decent act of faith, and if you can fire it then it can make Celestians into a more serious assault threat. But for a supreme commander, she is kinda bland.

The special characters are pretty cool as far as that goes, my only complaint with them is I don't like the models. Assuming of course they aren't crazy expensive.

The Confessors, Preachers and Battle Conclaves are all nice, but the Conclave is sort of a poor man's inquisitorial retinue. It has some hitting poer, but lacks the variety of other retinues.

Celestians outside of the command squad are just OK. 2 attacks and WS 4 are nice, but they lost holy hatred and initiative. If people are correct and this is our 2nd troop choice I guess it is ok, but confusing. The act of faith is one of the kind you would only use if you had extra faith on a turn. Unless it stacks and you are stuck in with a dread.

Dominions are nice, but they are not my core units and it is very likely that they are competing for Fast Attack slots with Seraphim. Still, hey are one of the few units I consider a solid upgrade from the old dex.

The Basic Sisters are, exactly the same but without the Acts that made them awesome. Grenades are nice and all, but honestly they are just flat unless they have some great prices and wargear.

FNP on the Repentia is good, but as others have pointed out there are a lot of S6 weapons out there, and I doubt the 6++ will save many. You are much better off relying on Celestians or Battle Conclaives for assault, especially since the Repentia can only use their alread unreliable Act of Faith in their assault phase. And (IIRC) they lose some speed.

And the Seraphim, are mostly pretty good. Two pistols, a more reliable act of faith that makes their shooting more dangerous kinda makes up for the reduced Hit and Run and Initiative. Still not great because they short ranged weapons means they will end up in assault, but I will give them slightly better than before.

The Penitant Engines have potential if they are cheap, but for the most part they are a wash. The extra attacks and upgrade on the flamer don't make up for the lost speed. I am hard pressed to no pick any other option unless they are considered troops.

The Excorcist is now an Excorcist with a 6++, another solid win, but I don't see this cutting down Excorcist spam. That is because...

Retribution Squads, the same but with less variety. Now that they can only use Devine Guidance, Why wouldn't you just use an Excorcist. If their Act gave them relelentless I could see an argument for them, but we got this tank here that, well you get the idea.

The Rhino seems to have gotten the standard upgrades, may cost less, and has the 6++. Slight improvement, but nothing to sing about.

The Immolator got a straight nerf It is now a razorback without the options. The marines must laugh out loud whenever they hear that the immolator is a design unique to the sisters. Their signature tanks is now available to marines, and the blood angles have a more expensive, but fast and power armor defeating version. Sure it is possible that the incindiary rounds are more than just fluff, but I aint holding my breath. One of the signature weapons is now nerfed to bland standardization.

So that brings me back to my point. If this list came and they released new models I could get excited. If we were stuck with the same expensive, and old models but got a fantastic list I would be excited. Instead we got a list with a lot taken away, a little given in return and one of the most dollar intensive armies on the battlefield. What is in this list to be excited about? The possibility that a month and $10 later the army will look a little better. I mean, it is not like the people who are dissapointed now are going to burn the next WD when it comes out, heck most of us will probably buy it. If we are hard on the list it is because we have waited so long for so little and we don't even get all of it at once. We have a $10 preview of our codex and the preview is dissapointing.

pretre wrote:I think I'll give a pass on the rest of this thread for the same reason. If you all can tell what is good or not based on only half a codex, than who am I to argue.

I guess we'll see who's right when the second half comes out and people either do well competitively with it or not.

Keep the faith.

Yep.

Anything written before the 2nd part of the codex comes out is premature - including what I'm about to write. But, it's fun for some, a venting release for others.

One thing I do notice from most posts is the 6++ save seems to be undervalued. The 6++ save won't help troops much, because in many cases cover will be better, and in h-t-h sisters will still lose by enough that it won't matter.

So far, I see the sisters as a mechanized force as opposed to foot sloggers like most people used to play them. The crappy 5th edition rules dictate that you are either good in h-t-h or you're mechanized. The best Guard armies are all mounted, mobile & tough to beat. I see the sisters going the same way. In this regard a 6++ save on vehicles is huge. If you have 10 vehicles in an army you'll make a few key saves each game that can really be effective.

Krytonus wrote:Anything written before the 2nd part of the codex comes out is premature - including what I'm about to write. But, it's fun for some, a venting release for others.

One thing I do notice from most posts is the 6++ save seems to be undervalued. The 6++ save won't help troops much, because in many cases cover will be better, and in h-t-h sisters will still lose by enough that it won't matter.

So far, I see the sisters as a mechanized force as opposed to foot sloggers like most people used to play them. The crappy 5th edition rules dictate that you are either good in h-t-h or you're mechanized. The best Guard armies are all mounted, mobile & tough to beat. I see the sisters going the same way. In this regard a 6++ save on vehicles is huge. If you have 10 vehicles in an army you'll make a few key saves each game that can really be effective.

Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win. Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

Even at friggin' eight points per model that doesn't seem very scary to my Guard army-- they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

If you honestly think there's a chance BS4 #+ armour saves with Bolters with frag and krak (irc) are going to be sub 10 points you're ignoring every other codex.

Redbeard wrote:
Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

I can't agree. I can't help but see 4 squads of 20 Sisters much like I would see 4 squads of 20 Necron Warriors: a giant target. The difference is that the Warriors are more resistant to shooting. Too many melee units will sweep straight past your somewhat-less-than-18" engagement range straight to melee, where you will break and be run down. If you cluster for mutual unit support, you'll be multi-charged unless you deploy in a double line which makes the rear unit mostly worthless. Against shooting armies, your less-than-18" engagement range will again make you slog into long range fire for several turns before you can reply with anything but Exorcists, which will either be targeted first and killed (along with whatever fast movers you have) or be forced to hide until the horde makes shooting range.

IF you play another Mech army AND the Exorcists + specialist units crack multiple transports early, THEN you may succeed since your opponent is reduced to fighting on your terms.

As for the cost of a basic Sister, if it doesn't drop the army is dead. The faith rules changes simply cost us too much to stay at 11 ppm for our troops, we'd have to resort to the Necron trick of min troops and max useful units. Unlike the Necrons, I don't think that's going to work as 'well' for us.

Redbeard wrote:Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

I suppose in smaller point games 80 points making or breaking a list isn't a huge deal. In a 2,000 or 2,500 point list though, should the balance really be so delicate?

Melissia wrote:...they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

bolding from me.

I had to pull this out as it struck me as ridiculous.

Against AP3 every basic troop in every army in the game is down to making a cover save.

I really do not know what you were hoping for if your expectations are that high.

Seeing that they are unmodified humans, why would they be any better than Guard once you take away the armor?

skrulnik wrote:Against AP3 every basic troop in every army in the game is down to making a cover save.

Yes, it IS a good argument against footslogging, isn't it?

Just popping in rq. (I know, I lied.)
Bought the WD. The thing that the scanned pages and typed out descriptions didn't make clear (at least to me) was the order of the entries.

Assuming that they entered them like they would in a real codex:
Canoness HQ
Priests HQ/elite
Conclave elite/retinue
Repentia elites
Penitent engines elites!
Battle sisters troops
Celestians troops
Dominions FA
Seraphim FA
Retributors Heavy
Exorcists Heavy

Probably someone else mentioned it before but I found the actual presentation and order a bit enlightening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would so field PEs as elites.

Melissia wrote:Even at friggin' eight points per model that doesn't seem very scary to my Guard army-- they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

I say the same thing about my tactical squads next to imperial guard (AND I PAY SIXTEEN!). It's as if you're comparing a book that you know no point values for and are comparing it to THE MOST BROKEN CODEX IN THE GAME (and you're doing it in very illogical and trollie ways). I'm sure you have a hell of a lot more troll fodder, but it's getting old. You don't know how much any of it costs, wait a month and then complain. You're perfectly welcome to complain about the lack of unit choices in the codex, but any comment on viability is absolute trolling trash since you couldn't possibly know if what you're posting is true or not.

Man, I can't wait to get my WD in the mail so I can finally see what y'all are jabbering on aboot, eh?

gr1m_dan wrote:

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

To be blunt. The Sisters of Battle are not Ward's Cherished Space marines chapters that he just Ego Strokes over. The Sister's are just about as SCREWED as any Xeno army codex at the moment. The DE might be an exception but I own 4000 points of DE. To me the DE are an almost army. It can win tournaments with the right player, but IMHO it is not a Tier 1 army. I rather play my SW's any day over my DE.

I feel your pain to all those that are are going to see the nerf hammer on an army that had wonderful playing history.

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Sisters have special rules, and a higher BS, and you think they will be more then 25% cheaper? Then the aggressively costed models... oh yeah, in a codex written by Matt Ward, who, by pure happenstance, might be of some relevance with regards to the sisters.

Other then the desperate need to imagine some way the unreleased information will save the sisters, what exactly would justify Sisters being so much cheaper then Warrior Acolytes?

Adam LongWalker wrote:gr1m_dan wrote:

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

To be blunt. The Sisters of Battle are not Ward's Cherished Space marines chapters that he just Ego Strokes over. The Sister's are just about as SCREWED as any Xeno army codex at the moment. The DE might be an exception but I own 4000 points of DE. To me the DE are an almost army. It can win tournaments with the right player, but IMHO it is not a Tier 1 army. I rather play my SW's any day over my DE.

I feel your pain to all those that are are going to see the nerf hammer on an army that had wonderful playing history.

You must be pretty bad at dark eldar if you don't consider them top tier. You must also be pretty bad at remembering things if you think the sisters or witch hunters had a "wonderful playing history". People would of had to play them for that to be true. As it is they're the least popular book in the game. Necrons still mops the floor with them in units sold and they're the worst army in the game. Cruddace has managed to produce exactly one codex that wasn't broken and thats tyranids.

Adam LongWalker wrote:gr1m_dan wrote:

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

To be blunt. The Sisters of Battle are not Ward's Cherished Space marines chapters that he just Ego Strokes over. The Sister's are just about as SCREWED as any Xeno army codex at the moment. The DE might be an exception but I own 4000 points of DE. To me the DE are an almost army. It can win tournaments with the right player, but IMHO it is not a Tier 1 army. I rather play my SW's any day over my DE. But hey if you cant make them work then feel free to sell them cheap to me. I woul love an op army to play since I currently only have Eldar/CSM

I feel your pain to all those that are are going to see the nerf hammer on an army that had wonderful playing history.

Well you are very wrong then. I find DE are easily tier one and maybe in the top 3 codex catigory... But like either eldar its very dependant on the player... A good player can play DE as a teir 2 army. A great Player can abuse DE better then he can play BA or SW.

And as far as this new sisters thing I am with the group that says "Wait for the damn codex to come out, then complain"
Our local Sisters player has allready started bitchin... omg.. just wait till you knowthe final points and such.

ShumaGorath

You do not know me... nor my skill in this game.

Keep your opinion to yourself about people and how they play.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Sisters have special rules, and a higher BS, and you think they will be more then 25% cheaper? Then the aggressively costed models... oh yeah, in a codex written by Matt Ward, who, by pure happenstance, might be of some relevance with regards to the sisters.

Other then the desperate need to imagine some way the unreleased information will save the sisters, what exactly would justify Sisters being so much cheaper then Warrior Acolytes?

And a warrior with storm shield and power weapon is over twice the cost of a crusader. All of their war-gear options are expensive

Adam LongWalker wrote:ShumaGorath

You do not know me... nor my skill in this game.

Keep your opinion to yourself about people and how they play.

I don't need to know you. You're saying your army, which is placing very high in tournies and has incredible power against the current mech meta is tier two. That means you're either not good with them or you don't know what that term typically signifies.

None of the immediately preceding conversation merits the escalation in hostility. I would suggest taking a short break from the thread and coming back fresh and with a renewed commitment to courteous conversation.

Thanks.

OneMeanDuck wrote:And as far as this new sisters thing I am with the group that says "Wait for the damn codex to come out, then complain"
Our local Sisters player has allready started bitchin... omg.. just wait till you knowthe final points and such.

Why? We know what it's most likely to be like. Sure, it's possible they'll be eight points per model, just laughably unlikely. Even if they were, it'd still be a gakky codex turning an elite army into a horde army

I finally got a hold of the newest WD today. After getting over my heart attack at the $9 price tag (I haven't bought one in a while... I sound like like my grandpa... "Back in my day White Dwarf only cost and arm and leg!") I was actually pleased to see Sisters getting some attention. It makes me happy to see them in print, even if it isn't under the best of circumstances.

I couldn't help but notice that they pictured a Missionary along with a little fluff text... I was happy as a clam. Those two figures are some of my all time favorites and I like the concept of them too. Then I see they're not included with the units. What's up with that? I checked the GW site and those figures aren't listed. I'm disappointed- even though I have them already I wanted to get another pair as I've gotten much better at painting in the last 12 years. Rotten of GW to show them with the army but not make them available. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Can we hope they'll show up in the genuine codex?

Melissia wrote:

OneMeanDuck wrote:And as far as this new sisters thing I am with the group that says "Wait for the damn codex to come out, then complain"
Our local Sisters player has allready started bitchin... omg.. just wait till you knowthe final points and such.

Why? We know what it's most likely to be like. Sure, it's possible they'll be eight points per model, just laughably unlikely. Even if they were, it'd still be a gakky codex turning an elite army into a horde army

That doesn't make it laughable and the sisters book was never meant to be elite (and never was in practice). Also you don't know whats it's "most likely to be like". The last few codexes they made were all laughably codex creeped, with this pattern you're going to be sporting six point sisters and 30 point immolators with 9 meltaguns in every squad. But then you never do anything but complain when the word "sister" is used in any thread, so I don't expect a total lack of reason to cry "the sky is falling" to be meaningful enough to prevent you from doing it.

You hated the last book, you probably hated the one before. You hate the fluff, you hate the rules. You hate this now as well. We get it, you don't like the direction the sisters are going whatever direction they are going whenever they take a direction. You don't like things that move.

Dr Mathias wrote:I finally got a hold of the newest WD today. After getting over my heart attack at the $9 price tag (I haven't bought one in a while... I sound like like my grandpa... "Back in my day White Dwarf only cost and arm and leg!") I was actually pleased to see Sisters getting some attention. It makes me happy to see them in print, even if it isn't under the best of circumstances.

I couldn't help but notice that they pictured a Missionary along with a little fluff text... I was happy as a clam. Those two figures are some of my all time favorites and I like the concept of them too. Then I see they're not included with the units. What's up with that? I checked the GW site and those figures aren't listed. I'm disappointed- even though I have them already I wanted to get another pair as I've gotten much better at painting in the last 12 years. Rotten of GW to show them with the army but not make them available. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Can we hope they'll show up in the genuine codex?

At most we'll see finecast recasts.

youbedead wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Sisters have special rules, and a higher BS, and you think they will be more then 25% cheaper? Then the aggressively costed models... oh yeah, in a codex written by Matt Ward, who, by pure happenstance, might be of some relevance with regards to the sisters.

Other then the desperate need to imagine some way the unreleased information will save the sisters, what exactly would justify Sisters being so much cheaper then Warrior Acolytes?

And a warrior with storm shield and power weapon is over twice the cost of a crusader. All of their war-gear options are expensive

The problem with that analysis is it reverses the equation: a warrior Acolyte with storm shield and power weapon is much more expensive then a crusader because crusaders are abnormally (one might say, insanely) cheap for their wargear, not beause acolytes pay a lot for their gear. The values for upgrades for acolytes are relatively consistent to the rest of the book, and indeed other codexes. Death Cult Assassins, Crusaders and Arco-Flagenants (GK version) are simply priced without rhyme or reason, in comparison to other codexes.

Or in comparison to units within the same codex, for that matter.

Melissia wrote:Or in comparison to units within the same codex, for that matter.

Exactly so.

Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

A riddle, wrapped in an enigma, slathered in rich, chocolaty nougat.

I hope Crusaders and Death Cults will be price a little less than their counterparts in codex Grey Knights. It's not like the ones in codex Sisters of Battle will benefit from +1 strength psychic powers. If only Shield of Faith stacked. Then we would have 2++ Crusaders.

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

Hm, i dont know but...

A Ork boy have WS4, BS2, S3, T4, I2, A2, ld6, (7 w/ nob) 6+ and cost 6 points with FC and Mob Rule.

Space Marines Have All 4, A1, ld8, 3+ for 16 pts

Space Wolves get all 4, A1, ld8, 3+, Counter Strike, They Shall know know fear, Bolt Pistol, Bolter and CCW, for 15 points.

Crusaders get All 3, WS4, A1, ld8, 3++, Pw for 15 points

Assassins get All 3, WS5, S4, A2, ld8, 5+, 2 Pw for 15 points.

You really think that All 3, WS4, A1, Ld8, 3+, Boltgun, should cost 13 points?

By the warrior you cited, 1 points should buy +1 in all stats, after all, if you get a warrior, and put in him a Bolter and a Power Armor, he goes to 15 points, for 1 more points he becomes a marine...

A save of 3+, even 3++ could sound great, but it still have 1/3 chance of let you die, and its not cheap. T3 with a save of 3+ dont help a lot, 3+ with T5 cost only 23 points, 3+ with T4 and all 4, cost 16 points, why 3+ with T3 and all 3 should cost 15 points? Why that would cost 13 points? +1 in almost all stats cost more than 3 points, for sure...

Sisters should compensate for that with acts of faith, but that is not what happen: what S+1 (for 4) have of good for a unit with T3 and I3? What is so incredible about rallying a SB squad with a faith act, if marines do that automatically, and they have ld 8 anyway? Rending for Retributor, c'mon, thats pratically usefull to only one of the weapons they can get!!! And what those guys have done to seraphins nerfing them to I3 is awesomelly nonsense. After so much time waiting, and using those girls with high cost and outrageous statline, players just found theyr seraphins doing the only thing they ever done well, worse...

WD codexes can be underated, but please, its better the next edition come with nice new options and wargears, or else, those guys just screwed things up after all...

Wolf - before you ditch the whole concept of the new faith system it is STACKABLE (for now until it get's FAQ'd into the Warp).

That means Celestians can stack their 1+ S to however many Faith acts you can pull off. They've done this BECAUSE they nerfed our 3++ Faith and AP1 Bolter/CC Faith.

Non of us have played a full 1500 point game with the new points/warger all we have done is speculate.

I am looking forward to the new challenge and to see how the new faith works. With a good D6 on how many faith points you get it won't be that hard to pull an act off.

Seraphim can also double-tap their pistols (14 shots + two flamer templates, re-rolling failed to wound rolls)

The last time I checked into this thread it was thirteen pages of people fearful of the unknown running about yelling, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" without even having seen the second half of the codex. Twenty-two pages later, the same people fearful of the unknown are running about yelling, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" without even having seen the second half of the codex.

No one is forcing you to read or post. Please remember that flamebaiting is against the rules.

Perhaps my post was a little inflammatory but it I mean to make a point about how silly it is to analyze a codex and then freak out about it, before we have even seen the whole thing, especially without knowing what the points values are. The entire thread has pretty much devolved into circular arguments about something none of us know everything about anyway. We might as well be arguing the nature of God himself.

Nobody could have expected a full book style codex ripe with many cool options out of something that was getting the WD treatment, so the reactions seem way overcooked. I'm really let down that we will all have to wait longer for a proper codex and new models, and would have preferred an extensive FAQ to bring the current codex in line with 5th edition, but the moment I heard about the WD codex I had an idea about what to expect.

The fact that this thread is thirty-five pages of moaning about what amounts to half of a codex is astonishing to me. I'd like to continue following and checking in on this thread because when the second half of the codex is eventually leaked, I'll probably hear about it here first.

Got my dice in front of me...

Imaginary Cannoness and imaginary Seraphim

Got 6 Faith points with Cannoness and 1 with Seraphim.

Got 4 off with Cannonness so +4 Initiative and Preferred Enemy for her and Seraphim. Got my Seraphim Faith off too so all re-roll any failed To Wound rolls in Shooting.

Got I7 Cannoness and I6 Seraphim.

This is at the assumed stackable Faith (which we assume because no where it tells we can't and it says all Faith can be tried multiple times. Old Codex we could try it once as it strictly said. This could change but for now I am playing it as so)

@augustus5:

What would you expect? Either look at it as the glass is half empty or half full. Veteran Sisters of Battle players are not happy from reading the first half. You can't us to be optimistic, that GW will suddenly have a change of heart, and bestow is with uber wargear and cheap guard points cost. GW has put very little effort into codex Sisters of Battle. The fact it's a 2 part White Dwarf with no new models is reason enough.

If you are sick and tired of reading pages and pages of players who are publicly voicing their discontent, then I have bad news. It won't change, not until the second half is release.

So either say something constructive or don't say anything at all.

And BTW, there's no promise the second half will be any better.

I am looking at it glass half-full for the time being. That said I enjoy a new challenge with a few new rules here and there.

That being said there are things I will miss but things gained. I will miss my epic Jet-Cannoness with a 2++ bashing her way through tanks and units...for around 130points (off top of my head-ish).

However we will now be getting more AoF on average and activating more too.

Out of interest, have Jacobus and Kyrinov been on the GW Online Store (in metal) at £10.25 for a while now (Witch Hunters HQ), or have they snuck back on since the release of this WD?

gr1m_dan wrote:I am looking at it glass half-full for the time being. That said I enjoy a new challenge with a few new rules here and there.

That being said there are things I will miss but things gained. I will miss my epic Jet-Cannoness with a 2++ bashing her way through tanks and units...for around 130points (off top of my head-ish).

However we will now be getting more AoF on average and activating more too.

Well, of course it's half full. They're pouring the other half next month.

Terrible joke aside, whilst I agree that a drop in points cost would make the army more viable, I can't help but feel disappointed that the individual sisters went down in power rather than up. It's completely aside from balance issues, but I would have prefered to see the army become more elite, rather than more horde. Still, there's always hope that there's a way to build it as a more elite force that will be revealed next month. Celestians as troops, for example.

Dysartes wrote:Out of interest, have Jacobus and Kyrinov been on the GW Online Store (in metal) at £10.25 for a while now (Witch Hunters HQ), or have they snuck back on since the release of this WD?

They've been up there for a few years that I can remember - they were just listed with priest stats.

I'm still clinging to the hope that new Acts of Faith are intentionally stackable. But I'm an incurable optimist.

Sisters players need to chill out until the next half of the dex comes out. It's too early to call it either way for the WD codex. It doesn't look half bad so far.

Non scaling faith points=Good news in low point tournaments. Sure it's bad news at 2,500, but it's good news at 1,500. The non scaling faith tools sisters for smaller scale battles, which is something sisters players have asked for previously in this threat when they rant on and on about how sisters are not intended to be a horde.

6+ invo on everything including vehicles roughly translates to a 16.6% damage reduction from heavy weapons, and it's especially useful on vehicles.

Acts of faith will pretty much go off on a 4+ as long as the squad leader is alive, and a 3+ is very good odds if the squad took a casualty or the right IC is attached

Battle Conclaves=CC Henchmen.

Ecclesiarchy Priests might be 1-3 per force org. If they have access to rad grenades battle conclaves would actually be nastier than GK henchmen. Even without grenades though an priest identical to an IG priest inside a unit of DCA and Crusaders would be nasty.

Sisters Repentia now only have standard rage, and thus can theoretically embark on a transport. Spirit of the Martyr also sounds useful.

Holy Fusillade on Dominion squads twin links their flamers and melta guns, plus the unit it's self has the scout USR. Outflanking Dominion squads with multiple meltas/flamers inside an outflanking immolator sounds nasty.

Seraphim sound promising. A rerollable 6+ invo is as good as a 5+, and rerollable faith checks makes a 4+ faith check pretty reliable. Rerolls to wound also sound nasty, especially with four S3 hand flamers in a unit.

Retritibutors may become very viable depending on how much their heavy weapons cost. If the cost drops to 5 for a HB and 10 for MM they are in business. Rending heavy bolters would also do well against the meta that includes a lot of AV11 and MEQ spam.

It's not over until the 2nd half of the codex comes out, and there is still plenty of time for the codex to become a nasty tier 1 codex or a total flop.

Someone with some sense at last!

Actually looking at what we've been given so far and how to use it instead of moaning about what we've lost.

As Schaden has pointed out - I expect to see Outflanking Dominion squads all over. 4 twin linked Meltas outflanking in a Immolator (with possible MM if you so wish) will be brutal against Mech and Tanks. It gives your opponent something extra to think about.

I didn't even notice that Repentia could ride in transports now, that's fething awesome! That seriously makes me giddy at the thought of running them in a mech army.

That aside, since I'm a casual player (or not player at all atm), I'm really excited about the modeling potential of plastic sisters. Speaking of, I hope they have a banner (and thus, a banner bearer) in the sisters squads, because I really like banner bearers for no real reason

Also, i'm thinking about making SoB Bikers if/when the plastic ever come out, sound like a good idea? I mean, I already have a SoB Dready and a super tank in the works, might as well make all the fun stuff I possibly can!

Dysartes wrote:Out of interest, have Jacobus and Kyrinov been on the GW Online Store (in metal) at £10.25 for a while now (Witch Hunters HQ), or have they snuck back on since the release of this WD?

They've been there since second edition.

schadenfreude wrote:It's too early to call it either way for the WD codex.

No it's not. Seraphim have gained some, but lost a lot more with the loss of their special Hit and Run rule and reduction of their initiative. Celestians are now completely ineffectual in an assault against any assault unit worth its salt without a Canoness to raise their initiative. Retributors will still be less than Exorcists, as before. The only units that got any flat buffs were dominions and St. Celestine-- when honestly the entire army needed one.

Tails9095 wrote:That aside, since I'm a casual player (or not player at all atm), I'm really excited about the modeling potential of plastic sisters.

It's a pity you aren't getting any then, not with this piece of crap anyway.

No new models. Not even finecast recasts of our old, half-assed second edition Sisters models.

The new models will have to come with the real codex, whenever it comes, not with this farce.

I lol'd hard Melissa, reading your post, refreshing and reading the next line, then again and again.

I'm aware we're probably gonna get fethed, it's GW, it's the companies unofficial job to feth with it's customers. But I can still plan

The best thing with Seraphims in Assault was the fact you can take an Eviscerator and tag a Cannoness along with them so the actual only good weapon in the squad in CC was going last anyway. S3 was always crap in assault too. At least we have some sort of redeemer with 1+ S with Celestians that can be STACKED. S6 Celestians with the right Faith + Initiative boost from Cannoness. Yes thank you.

I'll be running two Cannoness most likely - one with Seraphim and one with Celestians. Add the stackable buffs from Faith and voila.

Nothing will ever make you happy though Melissa (and yes, I love most of your Codex btw but c'mon GW would never do anything that serious!) so I can't really try and sway you round to the side of "Ok, it's different but hell to it, I am gonna work with it and do my tactical best to use it"

Ooooh, plastic sisters would be great for making my own Terminators too.... Dammit GW, work faster so I can give you my money

gr1m_dan wrote:S3 was always crap in assault too.

But hitting on a 3+ and hitting most enemies before you started taking wounds wasn't. Now we have to attach a Canoness to even bother using the unit.

gr1m_dan wrote:"Ok, it's different but hell to it, I am gonna work with it and do my tactical best to use it"

... considering that's what I've been doing with the already mediocre c:WH since third edition, I don't think it's that reasonable to beleive I'll suddenly stop.

When life gives you crap, you make crap-ade. Or something..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tails9095 wrote:Ooooh, plastic sisters would be great for making my own Terminators too.... Dammit GW, work faster so I can give you my money

Oh, the plastics are probably already mostly done (if not entirely so), but GW doesn't want to associate the models with this horrible abomination to 40k, so...

gr1m_dan wrote:Got my dice in front of me...

Imaginary Cannoness and imaginary Seraphim

Got 6 Faith points with Cannoness and 1 with Seraphim.

Got 4 off with Cannonness so +4 Initiative and Preferred Enemy for her and Seraphim. Got my Seraphim Faith off too so all re-roll any failed To Wound rolls in Shooting.

Got I7 Cannoness and I6 Seraphim.

This is at the assumed stackable Faith (which we assume because no where it tells we can't and it says all Faith can be tried multiple times. Old Codex we could try it once as it strictly said. This could change but for now I am playing it as so)

The new rules says 1d6 faith points for the entire army per turn. So I don't understand how you get 7 faith points for your 2 units.
As an aside how did you determine that the effects are stackable. I couldn't find a rule that says that you could do this and since the rules are permissive wouldn't you need to have a rule to that effect? If they are stackable doesn't that mean an IC with furious charge that joins a unit with furious charge would give everyone +2S and +2I?

augustus5 wrote:Perhaps my post was a little inflammatory but it I mean to make a point about how silly it is to analyze a codex and then freak out about it, before we have even seen the whole thing, ...

It's true that the codex cannot be evaluated when only half of it has been published.

To call people a bunch of Chicken Littles is a bad way to get your point across, though, because you just antagonise people and they won't listen to what you have to say.

Melissia wrote:..., it'd still be a gakky codex turning an elite army into a horde army

Sisters have never been an elite army. This is the basis of all your misconceptions. At 11 points per model, the basic Sister held the title for best basic troop for the points for most of 4th ed. But since then, every non-marine army has gotten a reduction in cost. Marines aren't an 'elite' army by the standards of this game, they're the mid-level army. Armies with more expensive troops are the elite armies (Grey Knights, all-nob orks, etc), Sisters are cheaper than marines, they cannot be considered elite when their base models cost less than those from the most-common faction.

Melissia wrote:Even at friggin' eight points per model that doesn't seem very scary to my Guard army-- they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

For that matter, they're no better than marines or grey knights either. But they cost less, so you can lose a bunch of them and still have your scoring units. Meanwhile, while those templates are concentrating on the sisters, the other elements of the Sisters army is closing with you and messing up your tanks.

Remember, just because you run your basic troops as a horde doesn't mean that you can't take anything else. And that's the point of having cheap basic troops - you still have points for other stuff.

Your 80 sisters don't need to kill anything in order to win a game for you. In a kill-point game, the guard player has to knock out 20 suits of power armour to earn a kill point. Against a MEQ player, they're probably getting the same kill point for ten, or even five marines, who as previously stated, are no harder to kill.

In an objective game, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

efarrer wrote:
If you honestly think there's a chance BS4 #+ armour saves with Bolters with frag and krak (irc) are going to be sub 10 points you're ignoring every other codex.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

Given that they're the basic troop in the army, and if tradition holds, unable to take a weapon with any real range, they've got to be cheap enough to take the casualties that are expected by getting into mid or short-range to be effective.

The comparison with vet guardsman discounts the ability of vet guard to impact the game from the safety of 48" range, if you buy them a rocket or lascannon and hunker them in cover. Sisters don't have that luxury, they have to close, and they're not that impressive once they get in combat.

Comparing with Stormtroopers, their armour is only slightly better, and Stormtroopers have a marine-killer gun, as well as a choice of special rules and deep strike capabilities to get them in position quickly. Stormtroopers also get the pistol and CCW (in essence, an extra attack) and the grenades.

Based on what I've seen so far, I think 9 points would be an appropriate cost for them, right now. 8 is probably too hopeful, although it would really emphasis the horde nature of the codex more.

The Grog wrote:
I can't agree. I can't help but see 4 squads of 20 Sisters much like I would see 4 squads of 20 Necron Warriors: a giant target. The difference is that the Warriors are more resistant to shooting. Too many melee units will sweep straight past your somewhat-less-than-18" engagement range straight to melee, where you will break and be run down.

Bolters are range 24", not less than 18". And you're also discounting the role of other parts of the list. Seraphim become a forward assault-screening unit. Repentia, if more reasonably priced, serve as a counter-assault unit. Penitent engines are a shock-troop role that enemy assaulters need to get past before charging the line.

If you cluster for mutual unit support, you'll be multi-charged unless you deploy in a double line which makes the rear unit mostly worthless.

I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Against shooting armies, your less-than-18" engagement range will again make you slog into long range fire for several turns before you can reply with anything but Exorcists, which will either be targeted first and killed (along with whatever fast movers you have) or be forced to hide until the horde makes shooting range.

Yes? And? Horde orks are still viable (I think they got one of the top finishes at wargames con just a month ago), they have to slog several turns, and have significantly worse armour. Playing a horde army is a mentality shift. Yes, you lose models early. Keep your eye on the objectives. You give up minimal kill-points, and 20 suits of power armour, backed with meltaguns, are not easy to shift off objectives.

As for the cost of a basic Sister, if it doesn't drop the army is dead.

Here, we agree.

Melissia wrote:
Not even finecast recasts of our old, half-assed second edition Sisters models.

I know you're mad, but do you really think the old models are "half-assed"? I find the very first sisters models are still fun to paint and easily surpass more recent models like the Arcos and Repentia in execution and clarity. Granted, they may not be fresh and new but to call them half-assed seems overly bitter. The WD codex including errors, and the fact there is no new models... half-assed.

I know I am still new to this forum, but I am not so new to SoB. And from what I have read of the new Codex, without knowing the points and wargear, or ny other real specifics, I am very excited to try them out. Some of the new Acts of faith along with the slight alterations to the Squads still seem veryattractive.

Running a Relentless Cannoness with a Retributer Squad with 4 HB Rending sounds awesome. Great for low AT. And if they can take a Rhino or Immolator. All the better. Even if it is for one mobile squad to hunt down targets with 2 Exorists still firing away.

Dominions with Scout!!! Thats huge! Four twin Linked Metlas Riding in an Immolator. Scouting ahead to close the distance. If you take three and get first turn. You can almost garuntee 3 popped Tanks First turn! And if you do not go first, You can infiltrate them and really make your opponent have to consider their arrival! Top that with the Battle Conclave, or Penit Engines Charging across the field. Your opponent will have so much to consider.

On First turn you scout yoru Immolators up and fire out 12 twin linked Meltas and screen the approach of your Penit Engines. While Your Exorsist Tanksare nailing any other armor left. And Retributers move around to clean up anything that was opened up. Firing 12 Relentless Rending HB shots acrss the field. Your Troops can bunker up and hold objectives. Its not the same as previous editions, But it is still very do able. Troops that can regroup instantly can be huge as well. Instead of being forced off an objective and chased off the board. you can turn around and unload with a hail of Bolter fire!

Redbeard wrote:me, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

I'm beginning to wonder if we're playing the same game, you and I. The underlined part is hilariously obtuse. Of course they're not going to get within 12" of you. The range on most of their heavy weapons is way outside of that!

Redbeard wrote:I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

The comparison with vet guardsman discounts the ability of vet guard to impact the game from the safety of 48" range, if you buy them a rocket or lascannon and hunker them in cover. Sisters don't have that luxury, they have to close, and they're not that impressive once they get in combat.

So let me get this straight? I discount the ability of one veteran guardsman to take a heavy weapon and sit back, but you'll compare to normal guardsman (who can do the same)? Nice blinders.
As to "better stats" on Kabalite warriors, way to exaggerate. They've got +1 WS (the weakest stat in the game) and +2 I. That's it. In exchange they have 5+ armor instead of 3+. Night Vision is useful in occasionally 1 turn out of 6. "Better gun" is subjective. Poisoned 4+ vs. S4 is the better for T5 or higher enemies (so basically Nids) and worse for T3 or lower. Against MEQ (i.e., T4) it's the exact same.

Based on what I've seen so far, I think 9 points would be an appropriate cost for them, right now. 8 is probably too hopeful, although it would really emphasis the horde nature of the codex more.

While I'd love to see a 9ppm sister, 3+ armor alone says it's unlikely.

Redbeard wrote:I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Other than Orks, what "lightly armoured army" is charging you without shooting you to pieces first? Do you still have Nids players in your area or something?

Da Piper wrote:I know I am still new to this forum, but I am not so new to SoB. And from what I have read of the new Codex, without knowing the points and wargear, or ny other real specifics, I am very excited to try them out. Some of the new Acts of faith along with the slight alterations to the Squads still seem veryattractive.

Running a Relentless Cannoness with a Retributer Squad with 4 HB Rending sounds awesome. Great for low AT. And if they can take a Rhino or Immolator. All the better. Even if it is for one mobile squad to hunt down targets with 2 Exorists still firing away.

Agreed. I can see Rets becoming quite integral.

Dominions with Scout!!! Thats huge! Four twin Linked Metlas Riding in an Immolator. Scouting ahead to close the distance. If you take three and get first turn. You can almost garuntee 3 popped Tanks First turn! And if you do not go first, You can infiltrate them and really make your opponent have to consider their arrival! Top that with the Battle Conclave, or Penit Engines Charging across the field. Your opponent will have so much to consider.

On First turn you scout yoru Immolators up and fire out 12 twin linked Meltas and screen the approach of your Penit Engines. While Your Exorsist Tanksare nailing any other armor left. And Retributers move around to clean up anything that was opened up. Firing 12 Relentless Rending HB shots acrss the field. Your Troops can bunker up and hold objectives. Its not the same as previous editions, But it is still very do able. Troops that can regroup instantly can be huge as well. Instead of being forced off an objective and chased off the board. you can turn around and unload with a hail of Bolter fire!

Assuming you get first turn. I might favour keeping them in reserve and outflanking them, but I'll need to try it out before settling, naturally. The loss of the potential 3++ is going to hit bunkering sisters hard, but hopefully a drop in points cost will work around this. Don't forget that sisters already had the instant regroup power, though.

Da Piper wrote:I know I am still new to this forum, but I am not so new to SoB. And from what I have read of the new Codex, without knowing the points and wargear, or ny other real specifics, I am very excited to try them out. Some of the new Acts of faith along with the slight alterations to the Squads still seem veryattractive.

Which ones specifically? I only ask because really most seem so weak.

Da Piper wrote:
Running a Relentless Cannoness with a Retributer Squad with 4 HB Rending sounds awesome. Great for low AT. And if they can take a Rhino or Immolator. All the better. Even if it is for one mobile squad to hunt down targets with 2 Exorists still firing away.

Can't do that. The Command Squad is the one that gets Relentless and Move Through Cover, not the Canoness, and you can't join your Retributors to the Command Squad.

Da Piper wrote:
Dominions with Scout!!! Thats huge! Four twin Linked Metlas Riding in an Immolator. Scouting ahead to close the distance. If you take three and get first turn. You can almost garuntee 3 popped Tanks First turn! And if you do not go first, You can infiltrate them and really make your opponent have to consider their arrival! Top that with the Battle Conclave, or Penit Engines Charging across the field. Your opponent will have so much to consider.

While I agree that scouting Dominions makes them way, way more useful, I have to disagree with your other assessment.

If you try to outflank them (scout) you don't show up until turn 2 at best, and not necessarily even near the fighting. And seeing as the decision to deploy and scout or to outflank is made during deployment, you have no idea who will be going first. Don't get me wrong, I love scouts (Wolf Scouts and Kommandos always make my lists) but it's a bit simpler than you make it out to be. And as for PEs charging across, they're still armor 11 open topped. And as they're squadrons, an Immobilized result is as good as a Destroyed result. Also keep in mind that Rage means you can't exactly control where they go. :-\

Yes they did have the auto regroup power. But if I am not mistaken. The Act of Faith negates any conditions that would stop a normal regroup. IE enemy within 6 inches and such. And being able to overcome those issues can still be a great advantage. Thats why I considered it a bonus.

As for Dominions, you normally know who is going first and setting up first before deployment. The only fear would be having the first turn stolen from you and Deep striking armies. In those cases you can hold in reserve. Or use the scout move to get the Dominions out of harms way early.

But regardless, I think the potential is still there fo rthe SoB to be a viable army.

Da Piper wrote:Yes they did have the auto regroup power. But if I am not mistaken. The Act of Faith negates any conditions that would stop a normal regroup. IE enemy within 6 inches and such. And being able to overcome those issues can still be a great advantage. Thats why I considered it a bonus.

The previous power made them Fearless, which allowed them to auto-regroup regardless of conditions as well. The new power is something of a mixed bag. It allows the rerolling of "1"s, but no longer makes you Fearless. You can't have it stop you from breaking in CC, for instance, to prevent being wiped out in a sweeping advance.

As for Dominions, you normally know who is going first and setting up first before deployment. The only fear would be having the first turn stolen from you and Deep striking armies. In those cases you can hold in reserve. Or use the scout move to get the Dominions out of harms way early.

But regardless, I think the potential is still there fo rthe SoB to be a viable army.

I stand corrected. Been playing a lot of Fantasy lately. And like I said, I LOVE my scouts in other armies. The Dominions are one of the few units that I feel was buffed in this book, although the loss of some of the Acts of Faith (most notably Divine Guidance) does detract from that somewhat.

@Da Piper: There's also a 1 in 6 chance of the opponent stealing the initiative, don't forget.

@streamdragon: Personally, I prefer the new twin-linked AoF on dominions, especially if they're going to be toting melta.

htj wrote:@Da Piper: There's also a 1 in 6 chance of the opponent stealing the initiative, don't forget.

@streamdragon: Personally, I prefer the new twin-linked AoF on dominions, especially if they're going to be toting melta.

Yes I realize that, But that is a danger to any Scout adance for any Army. In that case you can still use the Scout move to regroup and pull your forces back to help protect your army where needed.

The Twin Linked AoF on the Dominions is just to good to ignore. I liked the option I saw earlier. Taking one unit with two Flamers and two Meltas. This was you have Twin linked Flamers to help against a Horde of units in cover.

streamdragon wrote:

Redbeard wrote:me, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

I'm beginning to wonder if we're playing the same game, you and I. The underlined part is hilariously obtuse. Of course they're not going to get within 12" of you. The range on most of their heavy weapons is way outside of that!

Redbeard wrote:I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

The comparison with vet guardsman discounts the ability of vet guard to impact the game from the safety of 48" range, if you buy them a rocket or lascannon and hunker them in cover. Sisters don't have that luxury, they have to close, and they're not that impressive once they get in combat.

So let me get this straight? I discount the ability of one veteran guardsman to take a heavy weapon and sit back, but you'll compare to normal guardsman (who can do the same)? Nice blinders.
As to "better stats" on Kabalite warriors, way to exaggerate. They've got +1 WS (the weakest stat in the game) and +2 I. That's it. In exchange they have 5+ armor instead of 3+. Night Vision is useful in occasionally 1 turn out of 6. "Better gun" is subjective. Poisoned 4+ vs. S4 is the better for T5 or higher enemies (so basically Nids) and worse for T3 or lower. Against MEQ (i.e., T4) it's the exact same.

Based on what I've seen so far, I think 9 points would be an appropriate cost for them, right now. 8 is probably too hopeful, although it would really emphasis the horde nature of the codex more.

While I'd love to see a 9ppm sister, 3+ armor alone says it's unlikely.

Redbeard wrote:I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Other than Orks, what "lightly armoured army" is charging you without shooting you to pieces first? Do you still have Nids players in your area or something?

You must understand, when we point out that armor is one of, if not the most expensive stats in the game for infantry, Red isn't evaluating it in a rational context, but with the following in mind;

Redbeard wrote:

The Grog wrote:
As for the cost of a basic Sister, if it doesn't drop the army is dead.

Here, we agree.

He recognizes that the army as it was is kaput, and is flailing about trying to find a way to save it given the window of what is still unknown. That it requires a massive discount to a traditionally expensive stat then requires further rationalizations; such as the notion that a splinter rifle is "better" then a bolter.

Is a splinter rifle better then a bolter at some things? Yes, but saying it's flat out "better" ignores the fact that it's also worse at other things; to point out but 2 of them, splinter weapons wound t3 infantry on 4, while sister's bolters wound DE on 3's, and while splinter weapons are totally useless at any armor facing of any vehicle, bolters can at least glance armor 10 (which includes, of course, every single DE transport). Splinter rifles make kabelite warriors worse when they are fighting Sisters/guard and, oh yeah, other DE and Eldar armies.

Moreover, it's pretty telling that when Red presents his "keep hope alive" arguments that justify 8-9 point sisters, he ignores the best example of pricing (which I've now presented 3 times);

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Codex Grey Knights not only gives us a pricing model for a basic human statline with the warrior acolyte, which, let us note, is superior to the above mentioned guard examples because: there are no special rules, nor additional equipment on warrior acolytes, they are simple their statline and whatever you buy for them, nor do they have to problem (which you have with IG Vets) that the cost per unit includes a mandatory upgrade character. Beyond that, the GK codex also has the virtues of being the most recent codex, and... oh yeah, it's written by the same guy writing this codex.

Of course, having decided that Sisters can only be viable as a horde army, the fact that the most recent codex (by the same author) puts 9 points as the cost of an Acolyte in Carapace armor with a bolter (note, no frag/krak grenades, BS3 instead of 4 as well) is... inconvenient.

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

How else would one abbreviate "Matthew Ward"?

htj wrote:@Da Piper: There's also a 1 in 6 chance of the opponent stealing the initiative, don't forget.

@streamdragon: Personally, I prefer the new twin-linked AoF on dominions, especially if they're going to be toting melta.

I certainly agree that TL-ing the Meltaguns will be fantastic. For the Flamers though, AP1 was more useful than Twin-Linking. I suppose I can get past the drastically reduced usefulness of my Ez-Bake Lite, IF we get HFlamers on Retributors AND IF we can take Exorcists in squadrons so I can justify actually take Retributors. Still, I think a 3rd unit of Exorcists would be more useful than the Retributors. :-\ That way you can fire on more targets with the Exorcists, like we do now.

Yeah, that's a tasty unit and no mistake. Assuming everything works out all right and you take first turn, it could really cause havoc in the enemy lines. Hopefully it'll come in at a nice cost too, so that it won't be too devastating if they're lost on the first turn. A battle plans no fun if it can be knocked out on the first turn, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really doubt we'll see the exorcists in squadrons. Fluff wise, they're about as rare as manticores and deathstrikes, and those were one per FOC choice in Guard when everything else was in squadrons.

htj wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really doubt we'll see the exorcists in squadrons. Fluff wise, they're about as rare as manticores and deathstrikes, and those were one per FOC choice in Guard when everything else was in squadrons.

Oh, I agree with you. It's just about the only way I could justify taking Retributors over an Exorcist though. Over the course of the game I feel like the Exorcist will do more damage than even the Heavy Flamer EZ-Bake, which has a tendency to die after actually flaming stuff.

Redbeard wrote:Sisters have never been an elite army.

Yes they have. This is the basis for every one of your misconceptions. Claiming Marines aren't elite is amusing, but ignorable.

For that matter, they're no better than marines or grey knights either. But they cost less, so you can lose a bunch of them and still have your scoring units. Meanwhile, while those templates are concentrating on the sisters, the other elements of the Sisters army is closing with you and messing up your tanks.

And thus you lose because you cannot cap points.

In an objective game, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you.

Without the BoSL, that's not hard.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

Bolters are range 24", not less than 18".

To fire at 24", you have to be not moving. Which means you're vulnerable to assault by any number of units.


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Dr Mathias wrote:do you really think the old models are "half-assed"?

Yes, actually. I don't like the design of the Sororitas armor.

I also happen to dislike John Blanche's so-called "art". The two are possibly connected.

What do people think the odds of an Exoricst buff are? Maybe giving an alternative large blast firing mode with lower ArPen, or making them S9 to finally deal with the whole 3% chance to kill AP14 thing?

All rumors are sayin gthere is no change. But I agree with them needing a Pie plate option. It woudl be a great addition to there role in the back lines.

I would like S9 and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuut it's incredibly unlikely.

D6 pie plates... I don't think we'll be seeing that any time soon. The Manticore's nasty enough.

Melissia wrote:I would like S9 and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuut it's incredibly unlikely.

It is wishful thinking, I know - just trying to think of left-field ways the second half might fix things. Also, been looking at the photos in White Dwarf this morning, and noticed that they show two Command Squads, both with five models - do we think a five model cap for Command Squads is feasible? I figured they might go as high as 10, since that was the technical cap of the old Canoness's retinue (though the only time I ever fielded more than five was in a couple of friendlies, sticking them aboard Repressors). There's only one Conclave squad shown - looks like it has ten models in it, a mixture of the three types.

Mythal wrote:What do people think the odds of an Exoricst buff are? Maybe giving an alternative large blast firing mode with lower ArPen, or making them S9 to finally deal with the whole 3% chance to kill AP14 thing?

I do find it odd that the description for the Exorcist cannon didn't show up in the Exorcist's entry like it would in a real codex. I suppose they wanted to give themselves time to alter it if they so desired.

Making it personal doesn't help anything, and is a violation of Dakka rules. -Mannahnin

The largest and most glaring oversite/nerf is the non scalable faith system... Whether it is a 400pt game or a 6000 point game... Only ever D6 ? That is just silly.

Revarien wrote:The largest and most glaring oversite/nerf is the non scalable faith system... Whether it is a 400pt game or a 6000 point game... Only ever D6 ? That is just silly.

To be fair, not many armies can scale up to 6000 points using a single FoC chart. In Apoc, FoC is thrown out the window and you could increase D6 faith by dividing your forces into separate armies (1 Army per 2K?), and have them all allies. Although based on personal experience, Sisters of Battle alone don't tend to do well in apoc games. They often need allies to compensate their lack of range shooting and assault.

**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

**I tried so hard not to post in this thread....sigh**

Making it personal doesn't help anything.-Mannahnin


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Hulksmash wrote:6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

The problem with the quantity is that it's not reliably there when you need it. Do Blood Angels or Orks need Furious Assault as much on turn 1 as they do on turn 2? Do Space Wolves need Counter Assault as much on turn 7 as they do on turn 3? The same applies to Faith. If you could save that unnecessary Faith from Turn 1 until a later turn when you need to buff multiple units, that'd be amazing. Instead, you get it doled out equally on the turns when you can't or don't need to use it as you do on the key turns of the game, during which this system is simply not going to give you enough. Having the total be random (as low as 1) and only usable on your own turn is just adding insult to injury.

I'm all for waiting until the second half before pronouncing final judgment; maybe there'll be some amazing surprises in the point costs or wargear. But there's only so much they can realistically surprise us with at this point in the material remaining.

It wasn't meant just to be personal. I've editted it as it could have been taken that way. It's just the 100th time someone has brought up the scaling thing and I just had to spew out a response. I'm personally looking forward to the second half of the codex.

I hear you; that comment wasn't really directed at you, but your tone was a little sharp and I appreciate you being a good guy about it.

Melissia wrote:
No new models. Not even finecast recasts of our old, half-assed second edition Sisters models.

Those models were widely regarded as some of the best looking from 2nd edition and were certainly not half-assed. Old? Sure, but there are a good number of people that think they've held up pretty well. They may not be the belles of the ball anymore but they're certainly far from ugly.

Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

Hulksmash wrote:**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

**I tried so hard not to post in this thread....sigh**

Don't worry... I didn't take it personal

You said it yourself though: That is the average. Which over the course of many many games or even 1 game will work out to be just that, the average. Personally, I'd take a hard reliable number (sure I normally started with 9) over the 'average' of any one game, as I know at the one tourny I play in a year, I most certainly won't get the 'average' every game...

Personally I prefer to have hard numbers as opposed to a random die roll of help.

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them. You keep referring to them as an elite army when they've ALWAYS been inferior to vanilla marines in that aspect (and most others) and the meta for the past few years has been moving those standard marines into a solidly middle of the pack army in terms of eliteness. Where did you think nuns with guns were going to fit on that ladder with the recent shift to "every marine codex gets 2+ saves and power weapons as troops"?

warboss wrote:

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them.

If they are reduced to eight or nine points per model, they are horde-- what else would you call an army of cheap models which can have up to twenty members in their squads?

Oh wait.

You would call it a horde army. Yes

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:

Melissia wrote:

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them.

If they are reduced to eight or nine points per model, they are horde-- what else would you call an army of cheap models which can have up to twenty members in their squads?

Oh wait.

You would call it a horde army. Yes

Funny, but all those guard players running around with all veterans don't generally consider themselves a horde army and they're less armed/armored that an 8 or 9pt SOB. As for 20 model squads, don't you already get that for normal SOB squads? Are they "horde' now because of that? No. No one is forcing you to field them in 20 model squads regardless as your mech options are still available. They're just simply not the elite of the elite, best of the best army that is the single biggest factor holding the Imperium together YOU consider them to be. Welcome to the world of 40k codex design post 3rd edition (when your old rules were designed)... a world where GW lowers point costs and increases squad sizes in an attempt to get you to spend more.

warboss wrote:Complaining about HALF the codex is pretty pointless because the points values of the models after the changes will determine whether or not the full "codex" sucks. A model with worse special rules? Bad when examined in this extremely myopic view. A sister with worse special rules and free grenades for 2/3 the price? Very good.

Again though, decreasing a price doesn't make a model better. A grot given free grenades and reduced to 2 points is still a grot. Sisters aren't much different. The Grenades are somewhat of a red herring, as sisters are almost ALWAYS better off shooting than assaulting. A 10 model squad gets 21 WS3, S3 attacks on the charge. If I stand and shoot instead, I get 20 BS4 S4 AP5 shots. Why on earth would I want to charge?

You can reduce the cost of a sister, but having already reduced the power, availability and usefulness of Acts of Faith it isn't going to net you much. It just means I can throw down a few more bodies; and lets not kid ourselves, it will only be a few. Sisters are currently 11ppm. Let's go out on a limb and say they drop to 9ppm, which I suspect is a point low. Over 20 sisters you save 40 points, enough for 4 more sisters. It's not like we're gaining 50% models or anything, it will probably be less than 20%. A weak sister of battle is still weak. "Lots" (and I use the term very loosely) of weak sisters of battle are still week, there's just a few more.

Mythal wrote:What do people think the odds of an Exoricst buff are? Maybe giving an alternative large blast firing mode with lower ArPen, or making them S9 to finally deal with the whole 3% chance to kill AP14 thing?

At the moment the Exoricst is pretty one sided for a model with a points spend like that I'd say what it really needs is an alternative fire mode. Blast for hoard multi direct fire for tank killing.

Something like

Range Str AP Type

18"-48" 6 4 Ordanance Barage

Or

48" 9 2 Heavy 3

It really needs options as it is currently completely tactically inflexible and very much one sided. The second option could also be 18-48"

Just guessing really but that is what I want.

Kilkrazy wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Perhaps my post was a little inflammatory but it I mean to make a point about how silly it is to analyze a codex and then freak out about it, before we have even seen the whole thing, ...

It's true that the codex cannot be evaluated when only half of it has been published.

To call people a bunch of Chicken Littles is a bad way to get your point across, though, because you just antagonise people and they won't listen to what you have to say.

I suppose you're right, although I don't really think that those tI directed my comments toward would listen to what I have to say anyway. Otherwise this thread would not be a thirty-seven page circular argument.

I have gone back and edited any instances of "Chicken Little" with "people fearful of the unknown".

ceorron wrote:Range Str AP Type
18"-48" 6 4 Ordanance Barage
Or
48" 9 2 Heavy 3

You'd take the AP1 away? Watch out for an angry Melissia

I hope to be able to pick up a copy of the WD to look at at the end of next week - other than this and the Terrorgheist, is there anything else worth reading in there?

Redbeard wrote:
Bolters are range 24", not less than 18". And you're also discounting the role of other parts of the list. Seraphim become a forward assault-screening unit. Repentia, if more reasonably priced, serve as a counter-assault unit. Penitent engines are a shock-troop role that enemy assaulters need to get past before charging the line.

I don't understand this. Against a lightly-armoured army charging me, I deploy in blocks and count on the fact that bolters are pretty good against lightly armoured infantry. Against marines, giving them cover from the second unit's fire doesn't matter as their armour was better anyway.

Yes? And? Horde orks are still viable (I think they got one of the top finishes at wargames con just a month ago), they have to slog several turns, and have significantly worse armour. Playing a horde army is a mentality shift. Yes, you lose models early. Keep your eye on the objectives. You give up minimal kill-points, and 20 suits of power armour, backed with meltaguns, are not easy to shift off objectives.

Here, we agree.

Bolters are only 24" when not moving, and at one shot per model. I say 18" because that's moving + rapid fire range. Less if you want the whole unit to rapid fire. Standing still and firing one shot per model strikes me as terrible, and it won't scratch a mech army. You'll do little but annoy ASM and similar units with that kind of firepower, and Repentia in this situation will be hard to control due to rage and fragility. Penitent Engines in this context are not going to survive either, as they ALSO have rage and without the saturation of Nuns-with-Guns-in-Boxes what are all the S5-7 weapons that can't harm AV13 going to shoot? I think a lot of the potential output of PE's but not unless there are a lot of Rhinos in front of them. I say the double-band formation is a problem not due to cover, but due to range. Bolters in 24" mode scare no one, and a double band won't allow rapid fire or even some of the 24" shots unless you want to clump terribly. And that's asking for it against a lot of armies.

Horde Orks work because they have mobile cover, assault 24" guns, and/or are good in melee combat. And that's assuming Exorcists are as generally useful as Lootas. Sisters have problems achieving all three. 20 models with 2 meltas are easy to shift, you assault them, win, and break them. Powerblobs probably can't do it, but most everybody else can. You just have to get past or survive that 18" doubletap range. And when it comes to KP, what about all those cheap specialist units? The Seraphim, the PEs, the Repentia (and likely their transport)? All fragile, all small, all KP.

On cost, I look at it this way. The last codex wasn't a meta-breaker. Could be cost, age, or lack of interest, but I believe it was lack of power and flexibility. I believe that they do well when good players take them not due to a strong codex, but lack of experience. But back to the power and flexibility point. Most of that power and flexibility came from faith. Now almost all the flexibility is gone, and a fair fraction (at least) of the power. Nothing really replaced that, so an army wide nerf begets an army wide cost break.

Hulksmash wrote:**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

Complain about the randomness or the fact that it's only usable in your turn but the average number is enourmously greater and without getting your units killed to get that high. And if you're playing Apoc I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with say a D6 per formation? Jesus, 6k games don't really have rules anyway.

**I tried so hard not to post in this thread....sigh**

As others have mentioned, the total number of attempts are higher, but I generally used very little in early turns and dumped my entire pool in a few turns of critical combat. Usually turn 3-4, and often 5+ faith per turn. Now if I take 3 Dominion squads and try to have them all use an Act, I've got a 50% chance of not having enough faith without taking a SC. Too much luck, not enough planning potential. Alternatively, early I have nothing to spend faith on turn 1 unless I have retributors or something odd happens. Most of my army won't even be in range until turn 2.

I'd like to see the Exorcist get a frag mode and go to D3+2 shots. But then I'd also like to roll for an Exorcist and not ALWAYS roll one miss and one failure to wound too.

Hulksmash wrote:**This is not just directed at Revarien**

6d6 (6 turn game, the average) is an average of 21 Faithpoints. More with anything that might make the roll more reliable. The most 90% of sisters players used before stuff dying is generally around 8-10 and then they start to get that back when things start dying. Call me crazy but I'm thinking this will actually lead to MORE faith. Does it scale? Nope, but what was the highest number you could get previously? 21 if you maxed the chart before stuff started dying. So for the love of all that's holy stop crying about the number of faith!

People keep saying this, you'll get MORE faith points and your'll use them MORE often. However, thats a slight misconception for two reasons- reason 1) you ONLY can use them on YOUR turn, unlike the old way when you used them when you NEEDED them, not just your turn. Reason 2) Your faith pool gets emptied at the end of your turn, every game turn. Who cares how many faith points you have on turn one(I highly doubt ANYONE is using them on turn one) and probably not on turn 2, becuase you may or may not be in range by then to be of use.

Turns 3-5 were always the money turns, which is why 10-12 was fine. Who cares if yoru averaging 21 when good chances are for turns 1 and 2 your not going to use them, or be able to use them effectively?

Number of faith points dont matter if you cant use them when necessary.

Turns 1-2 your likely to be using them with your Dominion Carmachu. The addition of scout means you'll be using faith early and fairly often. People are doing the same thing they normally do with a new book, they are thinking of it only in the context of the previous edition. It's understandable but your not taking the new into account.

Hulksmash wrote:Turns 1-2 your likely to be using them with your Dominion Carmachu. The addition of scout means you'll be using faith early and fairly often. People are doing the same thing they normally do with a new book, they are thinking of it only in the context of the previous edition. It's understandable but your not taking the new into account.

Doubtful. Your still not going to be using as much the first two turns. I took it into account you'll use if you dont take seraphim. so you might use 3 IF you take 3 dominions, and dont get your ride shot out from under you. Maybe. Your still not going to use them as much turns 1-2 as you would 3-5

Buzzsaw wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

How else would one abbreviate "Matthew Ward"?

The way Mat Ward does?

streamdragon wrote:

Redbeard wrote:me, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you. They're not going to win on-foot, they're not going to have that many templates, and they're not going to bring too many tanks within range of your two meltaguns and eviscerator vet. So you take a few casualties from shooting. Big deal, that's why you have that many bodies.

I'm beginning to wonder if we're playing the same game, you and I. The underlined part is hilariously obtuse. Of course they're not going to get within 12" of you. The range on most of their heavy weapons is way outside of that!

Perhaps we're not playing the same game. In my game, troops are used to hold objectives, and the primary threat that opposing tanks pose to my troops holding objectives is tank shocking them. In that respect, meltaguns and eviscerators provide a good deterrent to the opponent that tries to take me off my objective. I'm of the opinion that, barring stupid play on my part, my opponent isn't going to kill 20 power-armour bodies easily. And that the other elements of my list will deny them the opportunity to focus enough fire on the sisters to allow them to hold the objective.

Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

P.S. - Yes, there are still nid players in my area.

Melissia wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Sisters have never been an elite army.

Yes they have. This is the basis for every one of your misconceptions. Claiming Marines aren't elite is amusing, but ignorable.

Do you have a dictionary available? Perhaps you could look up elite?

Dictionary.com provides the following definitions:

Noun
1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
2. ( used with a plural verb ) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there.
3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.
4. a type, approximately 10-point in printing-type size, widely used in typewriters and having 12 characters to the inch. Compare pica1 .
–adjective
5.representing the most choice or select; best: an elite group of authors.

We can clearly ignore #3 and 4.

So, the rest of these definitions describe elite as meaning 'the best of anything'. But that's not true of the standard MEQ. The standard MEQ is the average troop in the game. Maybe in the fluff they're elite, but gamewise, not a chance. We've already established that when the argument was made that MEQs are by far the most common opponent you'll face.

Something cannot be both the most common and also the best of the group. Doesn't work like that. Marines are not elite in the game, they're average. Many models are below average, especially troops in xenos armies. But Marines, in the game, are the standard against which the effectiveness of weapons are measured. They're the standard against which models are compared. In short, they're the default. The Average. Not the elite.

Terminators are elite. Grey Knights are elite. Cult-marines are elite. Standard tactical or assault marines - not elite.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

In an objective game, by moving your block of 20 sisters to an objective, you force the guard player to shift you.

Without the BoSL, that's not hard.

Sure it is. There are no negative modifiers for shooting attacks anymore. BoSL is essentially assault-only gear in 5th anyway. So your opponent has to come get you. Guardsmen aren't going to do that, and their vaunted AP3 pieplates aren't going to knock your unit out of cover either.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

You keep saying that. What credentials are you presenting to back this claim? I've placed in tournaments using sisters as a horde. I actually do know a thing or two about how this works. I've got an adepticon plaque in my basement from when my team ran horde sisters a few years ago.

I don't say this to brag, only to point out that, short of anything else, you and I disagree on this point. You're not going to convince me that your theory is correct because my actual experience has proven the contrary, against top-caliber opponents in a competitive setting. I may not convince you either, but have you even tried it, or are you just theorizing that it doesn't work? And, if you did try it, did you stick with it long enough to learn the nuances to playing sisters that way. Probably not.

As someone else stated, the reason most people haven't tried this is that sisters models are both expensive and old. (And heavy) I doubt anyone else posting in this thread has any experience with how running a 9 Penitient engine list works either. I do. I've also got experience putting 80 sisters on the table without any tanks, and winning games with them. If you haven't tried this, how do you know it doesn't work?

warboss wrote:Funny, but all those guard players running around with all veterans don't generally consider themselves a horde army

So? They're only ten models per squad. Vet guard isn't a horde army, not because of its durability, but because of its lack of numbers.

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

How else would one abbreviate "Matthew Ward"?

The way Mat Ward does?

You know, while normally I would give preference to a person regarding how they would like their name abbreviated, in Mr. Ward's case, I'll actually side with Wikipedia. Not because I consider them reliable, but because I'm willing to believe (or at least imply) Ward doesn't understand how to spell his own name.

Redbeard wrote:

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

You keep saying that. What credentials are you presenting to back this claim? I've placed in tournaments using sisters as a horde. I actually do know a thing or two about how this works. I've got an adepticon plaque in my basement from when my team ran horde sisters a few years ago.

I don't say this to brag, only to point out that, short of anything else, you and I disagree on this point. You're not going to convince me that your theory is correct because my actual experience has proven the contrary, against top-caliber opponents in a competitive setting. I may not convince you either, but have you even tried it, or are you just theorizing that it doesn't work? And, if you did try it, did you stick with it long enough to learn the nuances to playing sisters that way. Probably not.

As someone else stated, the reason most people haven't tried this is that sisters models are both expensive and old. (And heavy) I doubt anyone else posting in this thread has any experience with how running a 9 Penitient engine list works either. I do. I've also got experience putting 80 sisters on the table without any tanks, and winning games with them. If you haven't tried this, how do you know it doesn't work?

Well, I'll admit I had not seen this thread heading to this place... the place where someone resorts to an appeal to authority argument to win an argument over semantics.

I think, in all equanimity, it probably is time to close this thread, at least till the point costs come out and one side can shower the other with shame and vituperation, given that at least one side of the argument is freely admitting that they are not able to be convinced.

Redbeard wrote:
So, the rest of these definitions describe elite as meaning 'the best of anything'. But that's not true of the standard MEQ. The standard MEQ is the average troop in the game. Maybe in the fluff they're elite, but gamewise, not a chance. We've already established that when the argument was made that MEQs are by far the most common opponent you'll face.

Something cannot be both the most common and also the best of the group. Doesn't work like that. Marines are not elite in the game, they're average. Many models are below average, especially troops in xenos armies. But Marines, in the game, are the standard against which the effectiveness of weapons are measured. They're the standard against which models are compared. In short, they're the default. The Average. Not the elite.

Terminators are elite. Grey Knights are elite. Cult-marines are elite. Standard tactical or assault marines - not elite.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

Are they categorically Elite, such as with Terminators or Cult marines...?-No because within the confines of their army list they are rank and file, but this isn't the way anyone is using it in this conversation.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

How about that standing on one leg pose on the Penitent Engine on page 97 of the WD? Finecast?

3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party

Actually I would say quote 3 is the most provitive. The style of Marines (MEq is a term in common parlance for a reason) is something that shapes game design, list construction, and Meta performance more than nearly anything else, as well as GW's biggest sellers and the ones they put the most effort into.

That sounds pretty elite to me.

Redbeard wrote:Perhaps we're not playing the same game. In my game, troops are used to hold objectives, and the primary threat that opposing tanks pose to my troops holding objectives is tank shocking them. In that respect, meltaguns and eviscerators provide a good deterrent to the opponent that tries to take me off my objective. I'm of the opinion that, barring stupid play on my part, my opponent isn't going to kill 20 power-armour bodies easily. And that the other elements of my list will deny them the opportunity to focus enough fire on the sisters to allow them to hold the objective.

So in your games, people tank shock right from turn 1, instead of peppering you with shooting for multiple turns and zooming in at the last possible moment? All of a sudden your MG/Evis is holding off at least 4 turns of shooting, and they're deciding not to do the last turn rush? No, of course it's not. But keep pretending otherwise for the sake of your argument.

Redbeard wrote:
Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

Might want to put it back in your pants, no one is impressed.

aka_mythos wrote: Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

Are they categorically Elite, such as with Terminators or Cult marines...?-No because within the confines of their army list they are rank and file, but this isn't the way anyone is using it in this conversation.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

There's a fundamental disconnect in your argument in that Melissia and others are complaining about the RULES presented, not the fluff. Fluff =/= Rules. If fluff were equal to rules then marines would be the most affordable army ever as 1 marine is worth 100 guardsmen. Just because one sister saves a planet with the power of her faith and a bolt pistol in some Black Library story doesn't mean she gets much in the way of super powers in the tabletop game. No one is arguing that they're not elite in the fluff when compared to the unwashed masses of humanity in the imperium that toil for years without notice. When people can field hundreds of unarmed BS1/WS1 hive dwellers as an army and a marine army consists of a max of 5 marines, only then will a few squads of SOB will be elite on the tabletop as well as fluff. Unfortunately, that NEVER has translated onto the tabletop.

Tabitha wrote:The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well. But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

Oh silly troll... er.. supermutant, when will you stop posting things that have no credible source and more importantly, when will other dakkaites realize this?
You silly nightkin, you have no inside info.

This sisters codex IS the sisters codex. No printed book version will come out. HQ's will be finecasted but power armor sister units will be plastic in 5 per box with barely enough wargear to qualify for any of the power armor squads. It will be similar to how a PA grey knights box can be used for purifiers, strike squad, ect.

terranarc wrote:

Tabitha wrote:The stuff in the WD codex is to play test many sisters units before the release of the real codex. There are numerous new models and units not in the WD codex and quite a few special characters not in there as well. But those will come out with the real Codex. GW is keeping most of the new stuff close to their chest for now, so that rumors of the cool stuff doesn’t circulate for weeks/months before its even released, and people don’t decide they hate it before they even know the various new rules and stats for the stuff.

Oh silly troll... er.. supermutant, when will you stop posting things that have no credible source and more importantly, when will other dakkaites realize this?
You silly nightkin, you have no inside info.

If you're going to call someone out, at least be right.

This sisters codex IS the sisters codex.

Wrong.

No printed book version will come out.

Wrong again.

HQ's will be finecasted

Partially right, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

but power armor sister units will be plastic in 5 per box with barely enough wargear to qualify for any of the power armor squads. It will be similar to how a PA grey knights box can be used for purifiers, strike squad, ect.

Wrong.
Power Armor Sister units are 5/sprue. Two sprues to a box, by all reliable accounts. There's multiple sprues, from what I've been hearing from people who aren't completely daft.
A 'main' sprue similar to the sprue you get in a Tactical Marine box for the Tactical Marines.
A 'command' sprue similar to the sprue you get in a command squad, where there's parts for a 'sergeant' and two special weapon choices.
A sprue for 'heavies' which is essentially a Sister Devastator sprue, cut roughly the same as the current Devastator sprue.
A sprue for Seraphim.

Dr Mathias wrote:How about that standing on one leg pose on the Penitent Engine on page 97 of the WD? Finecast?

You mean the same Penitent Engine on page 51 of codex Witch Hunters with a picture taken at a different angle?

Yeah, that theory has already been debunked. It's not a new model.

My WD still hasn't arrived - I guess the plan to shaft subscribers is now in full force...

aka_mythos wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
So, the rest of these definitions describe elite as meaning 'the best of anything'. But that's not true of the standard MEQ. The standard MEQ is the average troop in the game. Maybe in the fluff they're elite, but gamewise, not a chance. We've already established that when the argument was made that MEQs are by far the most common opponent you'll face.

Something cannot be both the most common and also the best of the group. Doesn't work like that. Marines are not elite in the game, they're average. Many models are below average, especially troops in xenos armies. But Marines, in the game, are the standard against which the effectiveness of weapons are measured. They're the standard against which models are compared. In short, they're the default. The Average. Not the elite.

Terminators are elite. Grey Knights are elite. Cult-marines are elite. Standard tactical or assault marines - not elite.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

Are they categorically Elite, such as with Terminators or Cult marines...?-No because within the confines of their army list they are rank and file, but this isn't the way anyone is using it in this conversation.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

However, your forgetting the planets the space marines recruit on are the harshest and most difficult to live on planets that are the elite of elite of the humans and they choose from the elites making them more elite and then the gene seed makes the super human.

SO if the sisters can recruit from the space marine planets which I doubt then they only have the elite and no gene seed which is super elite.

thats why they are a horde army because they can recruit from the universe and there are alot of people in the universe of their numbers should be in the hundred of million if you consider one planet to have 100 billion and the whole universe will have 100 billion billon billon people.


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Slinky wrote:My WD still hasn't arrived - I guess the plan to shaft subscribers is now in full force...

its true no suscriber in my local area have recieved their WD. Its just stupid.

So now that I have got a chance to spend some quality time with the magazine, I am more interested in seeing what part two brings, but I am still not optimistic about the direction.

1) Unless there are some crazy point costs in the next codex I cannot see any reason to fill heavy slots with anything but exorcists and FA slots with Dominions. As much as I love the Seraphim, they would have to be noticeably cheaper than dominions with there current rules or have some special Seraphim related war-gear to justify them. Same with retributor squads. Sure rending heavy bolters are nice, but with the unreliability of faith points, I would rather have exorcists. Also, what good is divine guidance if you have a 4 multi-melta retributor squad? (which brings me to point 3)

2) uriah Jacobs in every list. Since he allows you to reroll your faith points each turn, there is no reason not to take him. Also, it makes it less likely that there will be wargear that does the same. My guess is that we will see him a lot with the battle conclaves.

3) This list could be a lot better if they switched some of the Acts of Faith around. Divine Guidance on Celestians, Hand of the Emperor on Battle Sisters, and Endless Crusade on Retributors would make this army a lot more exciting again (Honestly, this version of light of the emperor and Spirit of the Martyr don't seem that worth it.) Even with the unreliable number of faith points, matching up the acts a little better would give us a dynamic army.

4) The ability to stack acts is, at best, a novelty. Even if you had the faith to push Hand of the Emperor multiple times, getting a single unit of sisters up to p9 attacks just isn't worth it in most cases. Even if it was, getting enough faith and enough of the acts to go off in the turn where it would is unlikely. You are better off spending the faith on your dominions. The Passion might be worth doubling up on in some cases. After all, a command squad acting before marines could make a big difference if the squad your canoness is in has a few power weapons, but it is still pretty specialized. Spirit of the Martyr just flat out wouldn't work. They actually worded that act well.

Like others have said, we are sisters players. We will take this list and give it our best. I just wish GW would return the favor. This could have been a much more exciting army than the first half of the codex would let us believe.

streamdragon wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Perhaps we're not playing the same game. In my game, troops are used to hold objectives, and the primary threat that opposing tanks pose to my troops holding objectives is tank shocking them. In that respect, meltaguns and eviscerators provide a good deterrent to the opponent that tries to take me off my objective. I'm of the opinion that, barring stupid play on my part, my opponent isn't going to kill 20 power-armour bodies easily. And that the other elements of my list will deny them the opportunity to focus enough fire on the sisters to allow them to hold the objective.

So in your games, people tank shock right from turn 1, instead of peppering you with shooting for multiple turns and zooming in at the last possible moment? All of a sudden your MG/Evis is holding off at least 4 turns of shooting, and they're deciding not to do the last turn rush? No, of course it's not. But keep pretending otherwise for the sake of your argument.

Stop being obtuse. Of course they're not tank shocking on turn one. But, as you said, they're shooting a few random shots downfield. Killing 20 models in power armour, especially in cover, isn't something you accomplish with a peppering of fire. The threat to a large unit of sisters isn't that they'll be shot to death, ever. It's that they'll be charged and swept (which you can mitigate with the use of other, more combat-equipped units), or that they'll lose control of the objective with late-turn tank shocks.

Redbeard wrote:
Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

Might want to put it back in your pants, no one is impressed.

I'm not trying to impress you. But you seem intent on insulting my understanding of the game and ability to play it. You want to disagree with me, that's fine. But when you start throwing around comments like "I guess you're not playing the same game", I have to wonder, are you one of the few people with a better track record than me - are you someone I can learn from - or are you a sequestered basement dweller who's running his mouth with no real-world experience to back it up?

Marthike wrote:However, your forgetting the planets the space marines recruit on are the harshest and most difficult to live on planets that are the elite of elite of the humans and they choose from the elites making them more elite and then the gene seed makes the super human.

The average Space Marine chapter doesn't recruit from the elite of the elite. What they do is more like going to a school and picking whichever bully comes back with the most lunch money. If you want recruits in good physical shape that are young enough to not reject the implants it works, more or less. But it doesn't get you recruits with the slightest idea of how to operate in a squad, tactics, or how to maintain and operate any military equipment more complex than a sharp stick. The various forms of brainwashing Space Marine recruits are subjected to isn't just a formality - it's essential when you're picking people whose defining character trait is "Does not play well with others".

Marthike wrote:However, your forgetting the planets the space marines recruit on are the harshest and most difficult to live on planets that are the elite of elite of the humans and they choose from the elites making them more elite and then the gene seed makes the super human.

SO if the sisters can recruit from the space marine planets which I doubt then they only have the elite and no gene seed which is super elite.

thats why they are a horde army because they can recruit from the universe and there are alot of people in the universe of their numbers should be in the hundred of million if you consider one planet to have 100 billion and the whole universe will have 100 billion billon billon people.

Ultramar (and the planets of the Ultramarine empire) are "the harshest and most difficult to live on planets"? The planet visited by the Imperial Fists in Sons of Dorn falls under that heading?

Also, the Marines only recruit male aspirants, which would theoretically allow SoB to recruit female aspirants from the same worlds.

As was previously stated, there are (assuming no retcon) less SoB than there are Space Marines, and certainly not the "hundred of million" you suggest.

3x Dominions are almost needed for your 3 FA slots unless running 2 squads of 10 seraphim, then I'd still run a unit of dominions. Scout with 5 twin linked melta (1 combi) or 5 twin linked flamers (1 combi), and including the transport, an Immolator with Multimelta or Heavy flamer.

So you could run 3 Dominion squads with 5 melta and a 50/50 shot at Twin Linked faith, then Followed by a Twin Linked Multi Melta from an Immolator.

Vice Versa can be done with Flamers, 5x flamer with Immolator and heavy flamer for anti troop.

Sounds like Celestians in a command squad will get FNP, and probably the ability to take 1 or 2x Multi Meltas or Maybe heavy bolters, their act of faith gives relentless so it would lead one to believe so.

With 2 acts of faith and a cannoness attached with celestains one can get 1+ int, rereoll to hit, 1 str and fearless giving a 4/4/4/3/1/4/2/9 stat line for a celestian, and for cannoness with blessed weapon 5/5/6/3/3/5/3/10
in close combat.

Seraphim now are an amazing shooting unit with reroll to wound and 2 hand flamers, with the ability to shoot squads, weaken them, take a charge, and then hit and run out, shooting the squad, or another target, rinse and repeat. A rereoll 6+ invul gives survibility, and we don't even know what upgrades they can take yet, Krak make them able to take out vehicles.

Also, looks like Retributors can take heavy flamers now.

Think 4x heavy flamers with rending in a transport.
I'm thinking maybe, it's not going to be auto exorcist for heavy support?

Looks like a great change so far, I'm thinking 8-10 pts a model per sister.

I just picked up the WD yesterday, and I was impressed with the rules.

SabrX wrote:

Dr Mathias wrote:How about that standing on one leg pose on the Penitent Engine on page 97 of the WD? Finecast?

You mean the same Penitent Engine on page 51 of codex Witch Hunters with a picture taken at a different angle?

Yeah, that theory has already been debunked. It's not a new model.

Thanks for pointing that out, I was worried that the PE would be Finecast and not plastic on the eventual release of the official printed Codex.

Sisters have never been an elite army. This is the basis of all your misconceptions. At 11 points per model, the basic Sister held the title for best basic troop for the points for most of 4th ed. But since then, every non-marine army has gotten a reduction in cost. Marines aren't an 'elite' army by the standards of this game, they're the mid-level army. Armies with more expensive troops are the elite armies (Grey Knights, all-nob orks, etc), Sisters are cheaper than marines, they cannot be considered elite when their base models cost less than those from the most-common faction.

This must be the single best comment in the entire thread.

I disagree, looking at recent pricing and other changes. A sister was 11 points when an ork was 9, and a guardsman was 6. The ork is now 6 and the guardsman is now 5. Kabalite Warriors have better stats, other than Sv, they've got a better gun, and they've got night vision and fleet. They're 9.

Given that they're the basic troop in the army, and if tradition holds, unable to take a weapon with any real range, they've got to be cheap enough to take the casualties that are expected by getting into mid or short-range to be effective.

This is most probably what will happen.
Dirt cheap basic sister minis but with a penalty in point cost for the army overall as specialist units that cost more need to fill in the weaknesses the cheap bolter bodies lack.

Codex Grey Knights not only gives us a pricing model for a basic human statline with the warrior acolyte

Irrelevant as it is completely taken out of its own internal army codex context.
You are also "forgetting" the GK henchmen cost includes what and how other things around them work and are priced and also what options said henchemn do have. For example I would fully expect to pay more or less points per henchmen to be floating along with the density of special wargear and weapons they can or cant take.

You pay 6p for an ork and only 1 in 10 can take a special wargear, I would expect to pay more should 1 in 3 orks be able to take wargears instead. Just as with the kabalite vs true born or the various wych alternatives.

Sister cost will also depend on the density of their wargear options in the squad. Can you minmax them or are they intended as the cheap bread and butter base for the SoB army.

Yes they have. This is the basis for every one of your misconceptions. Claiming Marines aren't elite is amusing, but ignorable.

Nope and neither are marines "elite. Marines are the jack of all trade army, this is widely accepted. The SM player almost always needs to face specialist units that are better at what they do themselves but lack in the generic can-do-all the marines have.

And an Ork and Guardsman were horde armies, and still are horde armies. Sisters are not.

For 11p a piece they were certainly not meant as being the lower model army like for example SM at 15p were/are.
They were the middle way army, less horde then cheap orks but more then armies with 15p base troops.
Certainly far from as elite as SM and SM arent particularily elite in themselves, they are as said, a solid hitting can-do-all-pretty-well army.

I also happen to dislike John Blanche's so-called "art". The two are possibly connected.

John Blanche is the single worst thing to happen to the whole 40k universe but I think I´m in the minority to think that.

The largest and most glaring oversite/nerf is the non scalable faith system... Whether it is a 400pt game or a 6000 point game... Only ever D6 ? That is just silly.

To powerful in smaller games while unplayable in apoc games so it seems but then again apoc doesnt count from the standpoint of the 40k army codex.

The problem with the quantity is that it's not reliably there when you need it. Do Blood Angels or Orks need Furious Assault as much on turn 1 as they do on turn 2? Do Space Wolves need Counter Assault as much on turn 7 as they do on turn 3? The same applies to Faith. If you could save that unnecessary Faith from Turn 1 until a later turn when you need to buff multiple units, that'd be amazing. Instead, you get it doled out equally on the turns when you can't or don't need to use it as you do on the key turns of the game, during which this system is simply not going to give you enough. Having the total be random (as low as 1) and only usable on your own turn is just adding insult to injury.

Maybe GW plans to make the army as a whole actually work with this D6 per turn concept with the play style being altered to fit.
Who knows, miracles to happen some times lol

Those models were widely regarded as some of the best looking from 2nd edition and were certainly not half-assed. Old? Sure, but there are a good number of people that think they've held up pretty well. They may not be the belles of the ball anymore but they're certainly far from ugly.

The models still look very good, to call them half assed is simply ignorant and/or being overly coloured by hate directed elsewhere.
I am still unable to sell my SoB minis despite not using them just because they look so cool that I am always thinking to use them later for other things, maybe henchemn in my GK armies.

No, it's still bad, because it turns an army that was never a horde army into a horde army without adjusting the special rules to take advantage of the fact that it's now a horde army--nevermind the inherent contradiction in the fluff.

Thus it isnt about anything else other then your personal opinion that the sisters army were an elite army and now are a horde army?
Well many people disagree with this assessment and also the fluff behind it so just let it be and agree to disagree.

Many people were pissed about how the GK were altered from super elite to horde, can I call them horde by the way, according to your arguments I could very well do that since filling up an army with 70 GKs, all that are armed with stormbolters, force weapons AND guns that can pop tanks AND having the mobility to close in, move and shoot and also score...must surely make them a horde army right?
Sadly this setup would just fail on the table no matter how hordy it looks on the paper so please calm down and see what the second part will bring with it.

They're not changing to a horde; it's just that they never were as elite as YOU envisioned them.

This!

If they are reduced to eight or nine points per model, they are horde-- what else would you call an army of cheap models which can have up to twenty members in their squads?

Look up the GK example above.
Its not that simple as just pointing to the point cost of a basic trooper and yelling hooooorde!
It all depends how the rest of the army is priced and what other units will typically be needed to fill in the holes that an eventual dirt cheap sister troop mini cannot do.

Look at the space wolves as an example, they can be said to be a horde (using SM standards that is). Dirt cheap troop minis that are better at what they do then their vanilla equivalents BUT...
The army then needs to fill in the holes left by the cheap troop minis and this eats up points. Want to take a hammernator squad to cover melee from nasties that the cheap troops cannot do then you shell out so many points that everything saved by the cheaps is null and void and you even have t lower their numbers thus making the on paper horde army not being so much hordish at all.

I think a typical soob army might very well have a core of 2-4 standard to big troop squads and then piling up with the rest of the elites, fasts, heavies etc and this is ok, sisters arent as few and elite-ish as marines, not in the fluff (numbers) and not in the rules (points).
They are sure not as numerous as guards and orks and gaunts but then I cannot see GW pricing the basic sister at freaking 5-6 points per piece either.

At the moment the Exoricst is pretty one sided for a model with a points spend like that I'd say what it really needs is an alternative fire mode. Blast for hoard multi direct fire for tank killing.

The excorcist should absolutely not go up to S9 but it needs an alternative ammunition loadout. Maybe something that mimics the thunderfire cannon or an anti psycher hit/blast like the GKs have, that would be fluffy too.
The AP1 is fun and adds to its originality so I hope that stays.

Sisters - definitely not elite. Sorry. Don't confuse your stories with your game.

Not even in the fluff they arent. They are elite in the same sense that stormtroopers are elite in mody an dthen some more in mind and then get quality wargear.
Their elitedness comes mostly from their mindset, never breaking but even now the fluff is being erroded on that with thedark heresy books (especially the info on sisters in the deamon hunters rpg book).
This is of course irrelevant to the discussion but since we are talking about "elite"...

You keep saying that. What credentials are you presenting to back this claim? I've placed in tournaments using sisters as a horde. I actually do know a thing or two about how this works. I've got an adepticon plaque in my basement from when my team ran horde sisters a few years ago.

lol I have been steamrolled by horde sisters a couple of times, doesnt matter what people tell me, I know when I see a horde in front of me on the table and then promptly get beaten by it

So? They're only ten models per squad. Vet guard isn't a horde army, not because of its durability, but because of its lack of numbers.

So are retributors, seraphim and dominions!

Just shows how simple unit squad numbers cant answer everyhting. where by the way, goes the limit for elite, horde and "normal" when we talk unit sizes?
Veteran guardsmen are 10 but so are vanguard veteran marines, are those both units just as elite then?

How about black templars, oh no they have 20 strong troop squads, someone stop the presses, the BT is a horde army!

...eh, no!

Geeeze... the simple fact, regardless of which definition, "Elite" is a relativistic term and very much depended on context. This semantic argument is happening because the game and players all have different uses of the term and what you're doing is ignoring the context of its use, as intended, in favor of your own asserted definition and context.

As do everyone else Mythos, as do everyone else. You need to take his comment in its context.

Are Sisters of Battles "elite"?... in the context of SoB being selected from the best human female warriors, they are. Storm Troopers are elite Imperial Guard, and SoB are more selective than them, being chosen from those of the strongest faith in the emperor and imperial dogma. They are the best unenhanced humans in the galaxy and thus elite. When a SM chapter seeks out initiates they choose candidates from planets under their dominion, it could be ten or it could be a hundred... but regardless of that their are 1 million space marines in the galaxy and they are selected from the best of their limited pools. A chapter is the best 1000 of the 100 Billion people under their immediate protection... while their are only ~200,000 SoB in the entire galaxy drawn from the entire human population of the galaxy some trillion. Which is more elite?-SoB.

It is on this second notion of "elite" that many people, including myself believe SoB should play more like an Elite army.

Using fluff can be a double edged sword, this is why we need more clear codex fluff by GW or it will all boil down to an never ending bible interpretaion hole war.

I can take the same elite selection argument and turn it in favor of the SM for example.
How big population pool does the ecclestariarchy have to select said sisters from vs that of the astartes and imperial guard stormtroopers?
The shrine worlds alone go through more people then any other organization in the whole galaxy so naturally the numbers of quality females for sister selection is greater. How many marines or stormtroopers would we have should for example astartes recruiters sit at the shrine worlds looking for candidates amongst the endless trails of pilgrims?
Are the average recruit the church selects from born, raised, bread and survived on a death world?

What is the death and attrition rate amongst the astartes and stormtroopers candidates vs the sister trainees? Does the church really need to rely and depend its sole existance on the quality of an aspirant like the chapters do in entrusting their geneseed onto a candidate and thereby killing of almost everyone chosen for selection?

We dont know so discussion is pointless.

What we do know is that the Sob can be played as an elite army and they can also be played as a horde army. Just as the GK army can consist of 70 PAGKS it can consist of 12 paladins, both have their drawbacks and advantages but if pure fluff is to be taken into the equation and used as excuse there is absolutely no, zero, zip, nada comparison between what is basically a normal, albeit extremelly well selected human from an equally selected one but that benefits from arcane biological implants and a couple more decades of combat experience and training on average. Table top elitedness in all its glory but fluffwise it´s not even close.

On the TT a SoB army can be made super elite, small hard hitting with specialist squads and who knows, maybe GW will let them alter the FoC and spread scoring units beyond troops, that would be fun. Such an army could very well be made more elite then the average GK ditto. My own wishes are that GW make several play styles possible to cover for peoples varied tastes.

Perhaps in your game, troops are running around trying to kill stuff and standing in the open. I don't know. I've placed in the top 10 in multiple GT level events, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do you?

Might want to put it back in your pants, no one is impressed.

His resume is certainly more telling then yours for obvious reasons.
You "guess" he cant play the game but what have you accomplished yourself other then theory debating someone with tournaments under his belt?

Personally I dont care if someone is "wrong" or right (doesnt agree with me) but if said person has something to back up his claims then I damn well listen. Sure the pride gets a knock but I also learn. You should try it.

Ok, I have to ask this. Why are people so pleased with the Dominions' AoF making their weapons Twin-Linked? To exemplify why I don't see it as that useful, I'll compare to two units that can already pretty much do what Dominions are used for already.

First is the 4 (5 w/ a Combi) Meltaguns in an Immolator. With that many shots, you are already likely to hit with 3-4 of them most of the time. Is burning an AoF to get that extra 1 or 2 to hit going to be worth it most of the time? I don't think so. A unit that already does this are an IG Vet Squad in a Chimera. BS4 with only 3 Meltaguns is usually reliable enough to get 1-2 hits and some desirable result with being Melta and all. And that's generally without their order to re-roll misses as they are usually either in a Chimera and can't receive orders and/or out of range of an officer to give said order anyways.

Second is the 4 (5) Flamers in an Immolator. With good template coverage, most units are already going to be taking enough wounds to either die outright or be rendered combat ineffective short of either large high T, multiple wound units, or those with FNP, or possibly Paladins. This is where Twin-Linking to re-roll failed to wounds would actually get some use IMO, but there is already a unit that does this just as well with very good results. The humble IG PCS with 4 Flamers in a Chimera. Again without orders, or AoF in the SoB case, 4 overlapping Flamer templates are usually sufficient.

Finally, there's the least played (in my experience) 5 Stormbolters. Now here's where I could see this AoF getting used more often than the other scenarios.

To sum up for those that are fans of TL;DR: 4 Meltaguns without TL are usually enough to slag a vehicle, 4 Flamers without TL are usually enough to deal with most units. and outside of assuredly wanting to make sure that something is dead with the greatest chance of success, I don't see this AoF being all that great for Dominions. Now, 4 Rending/AP1 Flamers on the other hand...

There are two rules that are confusing me.

Do Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave gain any benefit at all from Acts of Faith seen as they don't have the special rule Acts of Faith.
I'm assuming not as the Ecclesiarchy Priest has the rule but has no act of faith of his own suggesting that he benefits from being in sister squads that have Acts of Faith but cannot attempt an Act himself.

Also, and this maybe answered by the second half of the dex, but the rule Seraphim Pistols says that they cannot fire any other weapons that turn if they fire with both pistols. What other weapons? I'm assuming in the second half they will replace thier two pistols for hand flamers ect and so won't have any "other weapons".

Nuclear_Bomb wrote:I just picked up the WD yesterday, and I was impressed with the rules.

Your avatar says it all....

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Ok, I have to ask this. Why are people so pleased with the Dominions' AoF making their weapons Twin-Linked? To exemplify why I don't see it as that useful, I'll compare to two units that can already pretty much do what Dominions are used for already.

First is the 4 (5 w/ a Combi) Meltaguns in an Immolator. With that many shots, you are already likely to hit with 3-4 of them most of the time. Is burning an AoF to get that extra 1 or 2 to hit going to be worth it most of the time? I don't think so. A unit that already does this are an IG Vet Squad in a Chimera. BS4 with only 3 Meltaguns is usually reliable enough to get 1-2 hits and some desirable result with being Melta and all. And that's generally without their order to re-roll misses as they are usually either in a Chimera and can't receive orders and/or out of range of an officer to give said order anyways.

If you're using target priority for the unit in question properly then it is important to make it twin linked. Twin linking the 5 meltas in your first example means you go from average 3.333 melta hits to 4.444. If getting one more melta HIT on average on a dread, leman russ, or nob squad that is about to focus on you isn't important, I don't know what is. There's even an entire tourney SM army build premised on doing exactly what you mentioned (twin linking meltas and flamers in addition to THs) via a special character. I've been in 10x more situations where I wished I had one more melta hit rather than one less. If you're an SOB player and you're shooting at a 2 man squad of death company, don't waste the faith point; if they're instead 5-10 men, you'll be glad you have the OPTION.

Also Dominions are very impressive for SoB because they can now Scout! Getting those 4 or 5 TL Meltas on top of those tanks first turn, is huge. And Being TL means that the chances of stopping the Tank, Dread of what have you, From attacking you back is that much Greater. So I would rather have that extra hit to better the chances of surviving the next round.