Mr Nobody wrote: More signs of the story being trimmed down when daenerys took the city.
They kind of have to. Be glad it's a series and not a trilogy of movies, as fans originally wanted. One of the writers spoke about it, and mentioned 'Some people don't like the change we made to Robbs wife... how would you like Robb cut from the story altogether?'. Concessions need to be made when changing from a book to another medium.
Plenty of other characters are going to die. Characters you love, characters you hate, important characters, unimportant characters.
One important part of A Song of Ice and Fire is people die. All the time.
This x1000. This series is a massive emotional ride, and not for people who get easily and deeply attached to characters. I've already done this with Brienne...That chick is sweet! Hands off, GRRM.
You're horrified at this, but were seemingly okay with
Spoiler:
A Wildling marrying his daughters, having children with them, sacrificing the boys to the White Walkers and marrying the girls they had?
There's plenty to be horrified at in this series. The Red Wedding isn't one of them, really. It was just an unexpected character death. More will come. A lot more.
edit - my own personal experiences with characters deaths went as follows:
Spoiler:
Really... you killed Robert? He was kind of important. Really... you killed Ned? He was kind of important. Really... you killed Renly? He was kind of important. Really... you kill...
feth it, characters are dying in this series. Lets get on with it.
People don't just die, they occasionally come back to life.
Spoiler:
I don't watch the TV programme but did Rob definately get a mortal wound on screen? I have had a theory that he isn't actually dead in the books as his death isn't actually described (just his wounding), a smashed up head on a stake could be anyone and it would be politically valuable for the Freys to hold onto him in a dungeon somewhere, just in case. If his dead in the Tv series is beyond doubt then never mind
Palindrome wrote: People don't just die, they occasionally come back to life.
Spoiler:
I don't watch the TV programme but did Rob definately get a mortal wound on screen? I have had a theory that he isn't actually dead in the books as his death isn't actually described (just his wounding), a smashed up head on a stake could be anyone and it would be politically valuable for the Freys to hold onto him in a dungeon somewhere, just in case. If his dead in the Tv series is beyond doubt then never mind
No.
Spoiler:
His head is cut off. His wolfs head is cut off. The wolfs head is sewn to his body.
Palindrome wrote: People don't just die, they occasionally come back to life.
Spoiler:
I don't watch the TV programme but did Rob definately get a mortal wound on screen? I have had a theory that he isn't actually dead in the books as his death isn't actually described (just his wounding), a smashed up head on a stake could be anyone and it would be politically valuable for the Freys to hold onto him in a dungeon somewhere, just in case. If his dead in the Tv series is beyond doubt then never mind
No.
Spoiler:
His head is cut off. His wolfs head is cut off. The wolfs head is sewn to his body.
You have to remember that all of these petty squabbles of mortals are merely a setup for the final battle- Ice Zombies vs flaming Dragonriders. The only important humans are in charge of supernatural forces, like the Greyjoys.
In the next book, it is revealed that the Drowned God is in fact great Cthulu, and he teams up with the dragons to fight the White Walkers.
Then, of course, Jon Snow kills Dumbledore and becomes the Half-Blood prince.
It is a grisly story, and the only plot armor available seems to be the cursed type that brings you back as an awful zombie, abomination of pseudoscience, bound godhood, or spirit of vengeance.
Other than Daenerys, I don't think any of the current cast will see the end in their current forms.
Gitzbitah wrote: Other than Daenerys, I don't think any of the current cast will see the end in their current forms.
Even Daenerys isn't technically safe. She might fulfil the prophecy, but so do half a dozen other characters.
Part of the theme of the series is 'prophecies are crap'.
You know, it really isn't her part in the prophecies that makes her safe to me. It is the fact that she's the only character with any dragons, and that they seem to be totally uncontrollable when they are separated from her. If the dragons are going to be in the final showdown, then they need Daenerys alive.
Gitzbitah wrote: Other than Daenerys, I don't think any of the current cast will see the end in their current forms.
Even Daenerys isn't technically safe. She might fulfil the prophecy, but so do half a dozen other characters.
Part of the theme of the series is 'prophecies are crap'.
You know, it really isn't her part in the prophecies that makes her safe to me. It is the fact that she's the only character with any dragons, and that they seem to be totally uncontrollable when they are separated from her. If the dragons are going to be in the final showdown, then they need Daenerys alive.
Not really...It hasn't shown up in the series yet, but in the books there's something that will really ruin Danni's day.
Gitzbitah wrote: Other than Daenerys, I don't think any of the current cast will see the end in their current forms.
Even Daenerys isn't technically safe. She might fulfil the prophecy, but so do half a dozen other characters.
Part of the theme of the series is 'prophecies are crap'.
You know, it really isn't her part in the prophecies that makes her safe to me. It is the fact that she's the only character with any dragons, and that they seem to be totally uncontrollable when they are separated from her. If the dragons are going to be in the final showdown, then they need Daenerys alive.
Not really...It hasn't shown up in the series yet, but in the books there's something that will really ruin Danni's day.
Jorah (in the books) has been able to unknowingly get Rheagal to obey him, that one time he basically 'asked' Dany the meaning of Dracarys by simply speaking it... Rheagal gives him a funny look and then singes his eyebrows rather badly!
Spoiler:
I have a feeling that Jorah & Tyrion are ment to become the other Dragonriders... Tyrion with his dragon dreams and Visarion being gold in colour, just like the Lannister Lion. While Rheagal is green, (and House Mormont's colours are a black bear on a green field), and how Dany sees him as a surrogate for Rheagar.
Spoiler:
The horn I think will simply make the dragons' ears bleed epically. What's coming over the Wall is more than badass enough - adding angry controlled-against-their-will dragons to the mix as well? It'd simply be too much, especially considering the raping Westeros is likely to take overall as winter sets in and Dany isn't coming to save the day until book 7.
Now, who's up for King Joffrey's wedding next episode?!
I guess because I am old, and have seen a lot of people die in RL, the ones on GOT does not really effect me much..but I kinda had a idea what I was getting into when first season offed ole Ed.
Have not read the books, and don't intend too, Lotr was a sad event for me since half the wonder of the setting was ruined for me , since I had read the books multiple times in my youth, and knew the story very well.
GOT is great for me since I don't really know where the ride is going, and the only character I honestly have even a small vested emotional tie to is Tyrion , little guy has balls the size of churchbells.
One thing HBO and GRRM have succeeded in doing is bring actual risk into a series, and bad people tend to get away with a lot..that's why they are bad people..in a world like westeros its usually the cruel and remorseless that triumph. Since they are willing to do anything to get it.
But that makes any wins the more noble types can achieve all the sweeter.
robs wife was not supposed to be there, she got sent off. so I wonder, what if GRRM had some future plans for her or her kid?
Spoiler:
Jayne's mother in the books has been giving her a number of potions to induce a miscarriage while she arranges a proper 'Lannister' marriage for Jayne. Her story is pretty much wrapped-up in the 4th book and that Martin allowed Talissa to be killed off should put all the 'does Rob still have a true heir' questions/speculations to bed.
Gitzbitah wrote: Other than Daenerys, I don't think any of the current cast will see the end in their current forms.
Even Daenerys isn't technically safe. She might fulfil the prophecy, but so do half a dozen other characters.
Part of the theme of the series is 'prophecies are crap'.
You know, it really isn't her part in the prophecies that makes her safe to me. It is the fact that she's the only character with any dragons, and that they seem to be totally uncontrollable when they are separated from her. If the dragons are going to be in the final showdown, then they need Daenerys alive.
Not really...It hasn't shown up in the series yet, but in the books there's something that will really ruin Danni's day.
Jorah (in the books) has been able to unknowingly get Rheagal to obey him, that one time he basically 'asked' Dany the meaning of Dracarys by simply speaking it... Rheagal gives him a funny look and then singes his eyebrows rather badly!
Spoiler:
I have a feeling that Jorah & Tyrion are ment to become the other Dragonriders... Tyrion with his dragon dreams and Visarion being gold in colour, just like the Lannister Lion. While Rheagal is green, (and House Mormont's colours are a black bear on a green field), and how Dany sees him as a surrogate for Rheagar.
Spoiler:
The horn I think will simply make the dragons' ears bleed epically. What's coming over the Wall is more than badass enough - adding angry controlled-against-their-will dragons to the mix as well? It'd simply be too much, especially considering the raping Westeros is likely to take overall as winter sets in and Dany isn't coming to save the day until book 7.
Now, who's up for King Joffrey's wedding next episode?!
Spoiler:
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Gitzbitah wrote: It is the fact that she's the only character with any dragons, and that they seem to be totally uncontrollable when they are separated from her.
There are...developments.
The only major characters that I suspect are somewhat safe are Brann (in a manner of speaking) and Arya (and I don't think that she will have a major role to play). I could easily see any of the others, at least those still alive, being killed off.
Gitzbitah wrote: It is the fact that she's the only character with any dragons, and that they seem to be totally uncontrollable when they are separated from her.
There are...developments.
The only major characters that I suspect are somewhat safe are Brann (in a manner of speaking) and Arya (and I don't think that she will have a major role to play). I could easily see any of the others, at least those still alive, being killed off.
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Spoiler:
Thats assuming that John Snow is a Targaryen and that he will actually survive the assasination attempt
Spoiler:
There is always the possibility that Martin has just been putting out the little peices of bait to make us think so, and then he'll switch it up, but it just makes to much sense. He's the one who knows the North. Knows the Walkers. He'll be the ones leading the fight against them. Also, Melisendre is at Castle Black. She knows Jon's important, the Red God has shown her that. She won't let him die.
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Spoiler:
Jon Snow is Ahzi Azor reborn - he gets the true Lightbringer instead of a dragon.
Young Aegon seems like a false king type of plant - especially with how Tyrion shows him up when they're playing their chess-like strategy game. (Aegon makes a bunch of dumb moves, Tyrion punks him and then Aegon rage flips the table)
Being a Targaryan or a bastard Targaryan doesn't instantly mean you're destined to be a dragonrider...
Besides, Dany almost certainly needs her dragonriders sorted out before she gets to Westeros, and (in Tyrion's case especially), there's been some subtle hints about who the other riders could be.
Yeah, they went pretty brutal about it, specifically stabbing Talissa in the chest. That was really the only surprising thing in the episode for me, didn't see that level of brutality coming.
I do wish they had gone a bit more indepth into the meaning behind the bread and salt. Those who have read the books understood it, but those who haven't have no idea of extra level of vileness that Frey's actions entailed.
Ratbarf wrote: Yeah, breaking guest rights makes you a man to loathe in pretty much every culture.
I believe it's mentioned that the only crime considered worse is kingslaying & kinslaying!
The sheer look of glee on old Walder's face as he's watching the slaughter while enjoying his wine was pretty fethed-up too... Here's hoping that his end goes something like;
a) Ser Jorah buggers him up the bum with his sword, then...
b) Aryia cuts out his testicles & hangs him by his eyeballs, then...
c) Tyrions hacks his legs off for the slight to the Lannisters, then...
d) Dany & Drogon BBQ him up good!
When this played a chill ran down my spine. Lannister is still my favorite house. None of the others have a song for fething exterminating their enemies like roaches.
They may have a kick@$$ song... And Tyrion especially & Jamie may be among the best characters in the whole series...
But feth the lot of them!!! House Lannister has sent Westeros to hell in a hand basket and only Tyrion deserves to live. However I do hope that Jamie gets a suitably epic & heroic death since he is trying to redeem himself.
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Spoiler:
Jon Snow is Ahzi Azor reborn - he gets the true Lightbringer instead of a dragon.
Still not convinced.
Spoiler:
There's half a dozen characters that match the 'reborn in salt and smoke' prophecy to be Azor Ahai, simply because, as I mentioned earlier, a theme in the show is 'prophecies are crap' (for example - Drogos son was prophecised to be 'the Stallion that mounts the world'. Didn't work out quite that way. Even Dany fit the prophecy by the end of Dance.
The part about him being a Targaryen is intriguing, but its only hanging around because of Martins complete refusal to say anything about his mother. It could very well be yet another red herring.
Experiment 626 wrote: They may have a kick@$$ song... And Tyrion especially & Jamie may be among the best characters in the whole series...
But feth the lot of them!!! House Lannister has sent Westeros to hell in a hand basket and only Tyrion deserves to live. However I do hope that Jamie gets a suitably epic & heroic death since he is trying to redeem himself.
Well too be fair...technically it was Robert who fethed everything up with his revolution. He was not a competent king and his complacency bankrupted the country and gave nobles too much power. Under the mad king the country was rich, and he kept the nobles in line. Sure, he was a depraved bastard, but at least the country was stable.
The worst part about Catlyn being dead is that her actress is so talented and we won't be seeing her on GoT again. Even in her most unlikeable moments, she just had so much power in her performances.
I'm wondering if Frey had planned this all along, even if Robb had gone along and married his daughter in the first place. If so, it would just have happened sooner. I'm sure that he had been weighing his options from the very beginning, and figured siding with the Lannisters would have been the most profitable option regardless of marriage opportunities.
Fafnir wrote: The worst part about Catlyn being dead is that her actress is so talented and we won't be seeing her on GoT again. Even in her most unlikeable moments, she just had so much power in her performances.
I'm wondering if Frey had planned this all along, even if Robb had gone along and married his daughter in the first place. If so, it would just have happened sooner. I'm sure that he had been weighing his options from the very beginning, and figured siding with the Lannisters would have been the most profitable option regardless of marriage opportunities.
Boltons are a very ancestral enemy of the Starks. Several Stark Lords have met their untimely ends in the Dreadfort and their skins made into cloaks. Were I the King of the North i'd of trusted them as far as I can throw Oprah. And the Freys are very jealous petty people. If Robb had kept his word I doubt the Red Wedding would happen. But Tywin would orchestrate simply another ambush. Given the mistakes Robb made.
Killing Lord Karstark was pants on head slowed too. But that's just me. I'd probably of sent those Lannisters to Tywin in pieces in account of Ned's death.
Shadowbrand wrote: Boltons are a very ancestral enemy of the Starks. Several Stark Lords have met their untimely ends in the Dreadfort and their skins made into cloaks. Were I the King of the North i'd of trusted them as far as I can throw Oprah. And the Freys are very jealous petty people. If Robb had kept his word I doubt the Red Wedding would happen. But Tywin would orchestrate simply another ambush. Given the mistakes Robb made.
Killing Lord Karstark was pants on head slowed too. But that's just me. I'd probably of sent those Lannisters to Tywin in pieces in account of Ned's death.
Yeah, Robb was just like his daddy. Honorable and a decent bloke, but goddamn does he lack common sense. Arya I think will not makes those same mistakes; she unlike her brother has no illusions of honor, it seems.
Shadowbrand wrote: Probably or the poor old man will die before he writes the next book.
Well, he might die before he finishes it. IIRC, he's writing it right now, however, it has once again gotten too long, being about 1200 pages so far.
I don't think he has 1200 pages of The Winds of Winter written yet, does he? Are you sure you're not thinking of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons?
Game of thrones is like a Chinese fantasy drama, Episodes 1-4 you meet the main characters, Episode 5 they all die, episode 6-9 you meet random people who become the "main" characters, Episode 10, half of em die with new people become part of the main cast.
However the show and plot are miles ahead of anything thats been on TV for a long time now.
But I digress
Robb stark didn't listen to Dumbledore when he said "The third floor corridor is off limits to anyone who does not wish to die a painful death" and so he had to deal with Mr. Filch
Shadowbrand wrote: Probably or the poor old man will die before he writes the next book.
Well, he might die before he finishes it. IIRC, he's writing it right now, however, it has once again gotten too long, being about 1200 pages so far.
I don't think he has 1200 pages of The Winds of Winter written yet, does he? Are you sure you're not thinking of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons?
I think I did, actually. Apparently about 4-500pages are done, with only 200 considered 'finished'.
Fafnir wrote: Even if Martin dies before the books are finished, let alone the series, I'm sure that he has enough notes written to ensure that it will get done.
I read in an interview that the two main producers from the show were told by Martin how he wants it to end.
I'm still kinda stunned by the whole thing, even though I knew it was coming. I don't think knowing about it or even reading about it can really prepare you for the brutality of the event itself.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm still kinda stunned by the whole thing, even though I knew it was coming. I don't think knowing about it or even reading about it can really prepare you for the brutality of the event itself.
Spoiler:
Just stapping her in her belly over and over again was especially brutal.
I think the other wedding would make a nice cliffhanger, but I'm not sure they will get to it. That death is the only one in the book so far where I was just going "heh, well good" and moved on. And they made sure that his death will be even more satisfying in the series.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm still kinda stunned by the whole thing, even though I knew it was coming. I don't think knowing about it or even reading about it can really prepare you for the brutality of the event itself.
Spoiler:
Just stapping her in her belly over and over again was especially brutal.
I think the other wedding would make a nice cliffhanger, but I'm not sure they will get to it. That death is the only one in the book so far where I was just going "heh, well good" and moved on. And they made sure that his death will be even more satisfying in the series.
The royal wedding is said to be episode 1, or at least very close to the start, of season 4. So at least people will start that season relatively happy.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm still kinda stunned by the whole thing, even though I knew it was coming. I don't think knowing about it or even reading about it can really prepare you for the brutality of the event itself.
Spoiler:
Just stapping her in her belly over and over again was especially brutal.
I think the other wedding would make a nice cliffhanger, but I'm not sure they will get to it. That death is the only one in the book so far where I was just going "heh, well good" and moved on. And they made sure that his death will be even more satisfying in the series.
The royal wedding is said to be episode 1, or at least very close to the start, of season 4. So at least people will start that season relatively happy.
The royal wedding is said to be episode 1, or at least very close to the start, of season 4. So at least people will start that season relatively happy.
I've heard episode 4. It seems far, so I'm actually hoping you're correct.
The royal wedding is said to be episode 1, or at least very close to the start, of season 4. So at least people will start that season relatively happy.
I've heard episode 4. It seems far, so I'm actually hoping you're correct.
Spoiler:
10 bucks says episode 9 next year sees Tywin Lannister gakking (not) gold!
Oh, and rumor has it that the producers are after Alexander Siddig for the role of Obryn Martel... (which will be epic if they can get him! )
Yeah you can't have the royal wedding this season, and for a number of reasons.
1. Having it this close to the Red Wedding would dilute it somewhat. 2. It'd be three weddings in three episodes. (And the next two get spoiler tags)
Spoiler:
3. The audience needs some time with Tyrion and Sansa as husband and wife. It makes that entire marriage pointless from a narrative perspective if they make such a bit deal of it in one episode only to have Tyrion run off after killing Tywin two episodes later. 4. You'd quickly find yourself with less stuff to fill the fourth season. What other major events are there besides the Royal Wedding and Battle of Castle Black (the thing that will likely be Season 4's 9th episode)?
So I don't see the Royal Wedding occuring next week. I think Season 10's big "Holy crap!" moment will be...
Spoiler:
the resurrection of Cat Stark when the Brotherhood Without Banners finds her body.
1) Cold Hands. Him showing up would be a great cliffhanger, and they have to work him in at some point since they didn't with the raven tree scene.
2) Cat's resurrection.
Actually there would be plenty to occupy people during the next season if they have the first royal wedding as the tenth episode. There is all of Tyrion's trial and the Serpent/Viper guy, there's Cold Hands, Sansa running away, Arya getting to the Faceless God's temple, lots of stuff. Plus, I think it's possibly more likely to go that way because I doubt they will have Tyrion drop off the face of the earth for possibly two seasons if they follow Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons. They're likely going to intertwine those storylines to some degree.
Actually there would be plenty to occupy people during the next season if they have the first royal wedding as the tenth episode. There is all of Tyrion's trial and the Serpent/Viper guy, there's Cold Hands, Sansa running away, Arya getting to the Faceless God's temple, lots of stuff. Plus, I think it's possibly more likely to go that way because I doubt they will have Tyrion drop off the face of the earth for possibly two seasons if they follow Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons. They're likely going to intertwine those storylines to some degree.
Spoiler:
They've confirmed the royal wedding is season 4.
Also, I'm fairly certain they WON'T do the story split like they did for Feast/Dance, for the simple fact that they don't want to pay all of those actors for not even turning up for work, which is the reason they gave for changing the original actors that shwoed up in bit roles in the first 2 seasons, like Dondarrion and Stannis's wife. My guess is Feast/Dance will split the story like Storm of Swords, vertically rather than horizontally.
Game of Thrones author George R. R. Martin wrote an op-ed about Sunday's episode. Warning, it contains spoilers. Although you've probably already read the previous spoilers so I guess it's safe enough.
All the people cursing the HBO Executives kinda remind me of a lady that complained about how unfair it is to Peter Jackson that some random dude released a novelisation of the Lord of the Rings...
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Did Roose kill Rob in the books? I thought it was Black Walder. I can't really remember :/
Roose did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breotan wrote: Game of Thrones author George R. R. Martin wrote an op-ed about Sunday's episode. Warning, it contains spoilers. Although you've probably already read the previous spoilers so I guess it's safe enough.
I've read all the books, so I knew what was coming.
But I have to say that the show really was able to fully capture the fethed up-ness of the Red Wedding and make it shocking even if you knew it was coming.
Of course he was. The Starks were Kings of the North prior to the Targaryen take over. They professed fealty to the Targaryens. When they were no more, Eddard Stark professed fealty to Robert Baratheon. Since his line (seemingly) went on to behead the reigning Stark, there was nothing tying the Starks down anymore, and they reasserted their claim as Kings of the North.
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
The night is dark and full of terrors. The fire burns them all away.
Robb realized too late that even a maggot such as himself could never escape the flames.
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
The night is dark and full of terrors. The fire burns them all away.
Robb realized too late that even a maggot such as himself could never escape the flames.
Robb didn't declare himself king. His bannermen did. John Umber was the one I believe who started the call for it, and the other lords of the North and the Riverlands took it up.
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
When Eddard was killed, House Stark fell to Robb. It was Robb's decision to make, and the wishes of his father mattered not at that point.
Even when they bowed to a king in the south, the north has always belonged to the Starks.
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
The night is dark and full of terrors. The fire burns them all away.
Robb realized too late that even a maggot such as himself could never escape the flames.
Robb didn't declare himself king. His bannermen did. John Umber was the one I believe who started the call for it, and the other lords of the North and the Riverlands took it up.
No, they counseled him. Robb could have refused them, and at any time could have backed down. He could have told them that he wasn't a true king, and that Stannis was the rightful Protector of the Realm. Instead, like the true thief he was, he declared himself a King and sought to murder all those that opposed him.
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
When Eddard was killed, House Stark fell to Robb. It was Robb's decision to make, and the wishes of his father mattered not at that point.
Even when they bowed to a king in the south, the north has always belonged to the Starks.
Yes, it was his decision to make, and he made the wrong one. If he declared himself a King, whose to say that any tavern wench or innkeep couldn't do likewise? If he's a King, despite having no claim, despite defying the wishes of his father and his lord, I suppose I'm a king too.
Hordini wrote:The Starks have had a claim to the North since the time of the First Men.
That claim died when the last King in the North bowed to the Targaryens. They have no more claim to the North than the Martells have to Dorne or the Tyrells have to High Garden.
All vassals must answer to their Lord, and all Lords must answer to their King.
Gitzbitah wrote:Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
You're just saying that because you're jealous of the highborn. Accept that you're a peasant and get on with your miserable life.
Spoiler:
Stannis is pretty much nothing more than a zombie-king now thanks to the Red Woman's black magic, and she'll will get what's coming to her when the true Son of Rholler is revealed!
The trueborn queen of Westeros is Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Khalisi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons!
Wait a second. Following the train wreck of logic going on here, isn't Dany the true Queen? She is King Targaryen's sole remaining heir after all and he was "illegally" removed from office.
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Spoiler:
Jon Snow is Ahzi Azor reborn - he gets the true Lightbringer instead of a dragon.
Still not convinced.
Spoiler:
There's half a dozen characters that match the 'reborn in salt and smoke' prophecy to be Azor Ahai, simply because, as I mentioned earlier, a theme in the show is 'prophecies are crap' (for example - Drogos son was prophecised to be 'the Stallion that mounts the world'. Didn't work out quite that way. Even Dany fit the prophecy by the end of Dance.
The part about him being a Targaryen is intriguing, but its only hanging around because of Martins complete refusal to say anything about his mother. It could very well be yet another red herring.
Spoiler:
She's the only character who fits the prophecy about Azor Ahai, and the only prophecies/visions of the cult of Rhlor to prove false are the visions that mislead Melisandre into believing Stannis is Azor Ahai, which leads to her fulfilling a number of necessary events in Westeros before winding up at the wall, where she loses interest in Stannis (apparently realizing her error) and latches onto Jon Snow (albeit in a different way).
Prophecies of other gods seem to be meaningless, and overall they don't seem to exist at all (the drowned god is more ambiguous, but the seven are decidedly silent, and the old gods are something else entirely), but Rhlor seems very much to be real, and guiding its cult (or at least, some benevolent but ruthless entity is).
I wouldn't be surprised if you can somehow tie the 7 Gods to the 7 Kingdoms and get some relevance from that. Even the other gods can be shoehorned into the 7.
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Spoiler:
Jon Snow is Ahzi Azor reborn - he gets the true Lightbringer instead of a dragon.
Still not convinced.
Spoiler:
There's half a dozen characters that match the 'reborn in salt and smoke' prophecy to be Azor Ahai, simply because, as I mentioned earlier, a theme in the show is 'prophecies are crap' (for example - Drogos son was prophecised to be 'the Stallion that mounts the world'. Didn't work out quite that way. Even Dany fit the prophecy by the end of Dance.
The part about him being a Targaryen is intriguing, but its only hanging around because of Martins complete refusal to say anything about his mother. It could very well be yet another red herring.
Spoiler:
She's the only character who fits the prophecy about Azor Ahai, and the only prophecies/visions of the cult of Rhlor to prove false are the visions that mislead Melisandre into believing Stannis is Azor Ahai, which leads to her fulfilling a number of necessary events in Westeros before winding up at the wall, where she loses interest in Stannis (apparently realizing her error) and latches onto Jon Snow (albeit in a different way).
Prophecies of other gods seem to be meaningless, and overall they don't seem to exist at all (the drowned god is more ambiguous, but the seven are decidedly silent, and the old gods are something else entirely), but Rhlor seems very much to be real, and guiding its cult (or at least, some benevolent but ruthless entity is).
Spoiler:
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
Hordini wrote: Question with a spoiler from A Dance with Dragons:
Spoiler:
Do you think Melissandre is going to bring Jon back in the next book?
Spoiler:
I don't think he will die. Not that Martin has any qualms about killing characters off, but I just feel like John's story has too much potential left in it to end like that. Other stories (like the whole rebellion thing) were kind of petering out, whereas I don't believe his was. So yeah either he won't die in the end (he'll just be in a coma and then recover) or she'll do her thing. Or Martin will say 'feth it' and we'll focus even more on Dany...something I don't really want.
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
IIRC, the true Lightbringer was a sword forged by the Champion of Light in a raging furnace and then quenched in the blood of his sacrificed wife. (been a bit since I last read 'A Clash of Kings'...)
Spoiler:
Hence why Jon is more likely to be Ahzi Azor as he's made the relevant sacrifice when he lets Yggrit die because his duty & loyalty is to the Watch.
Dany on the other hand never really 'sacrificed' Drogo in the true sense of it, but rather, she simply let him go after Miri Maz Dhur left him as a comatose zombie.
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
Gitzbitah wrote:Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
You're just saying that because you're jealous of the highborn. Accept that you're a peasant and get on with your miserable life.
At this rate, only the peasants will survive!
Also note- Daenerys is not a queen in Westeros... yet. Don't worry TV goers, it isn't a spoiler. Merely conjecture.
That being said, Dragons are the unstoppable force in Martin's world- and she has them all.
Seriously though, if someone told me I was next in line for any throne in Westeros, I would take the black and refuse any offers of leadership. Tend to the ravens, or rule for the average life expectancy of 6 months. A rule punctuated by your inherited advisors screwing you over, your retainers planning intricate assassinations or outright rebellion, and also having the Scylla and Charybdis of crushing national debt and unknown supernatural forces bearing down on you.
I'd have a better shot as king of Moria. At least there was only one Balrog in the depths there, not an incredibly lengthy winter and a zombie apocalypse.
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
IIRC, the true Lightbringer was a sword forged by the Champion of Light in a raging furnace and then quenched in the blood of his sacrificed wife. (been a bit since I last read 'A Clash of Kings'...)
Spoiler:
Hence why Jon is more likely to be Ahzi Azor as he's made the relevant sacrifice when he lets Yggrit die because his duty & loyalty is to the Watch.
Dany on the other hand never really 'sacrificed' Drogo in the true sense of it, but rather, she simply let him go after Miri Maz Dhur left him as a comatose zombie.
Spoiler:
The raging furnace though? Dany was the one who walked into a giant funeral pyre, of her dead husband, and then walked out with three Dragons. Jon has done nothing of the like.
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
But I could have sworn there is a 'based on' or something at the end of the episode?
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
IIRC, the true Lightbringer was a sword forged by the Champion of Light in a raging furnace and then quenched in the blood of his sacrificed wife. (been a bit since I last read 'A Clash of Kings'...)
Spoiler:
Hence why Jon is more likely to be Ahzi Azor as he's made the relevant sacrifice when he lets Yggrit die because his duty & loyalty is to the Watch.
Dany on the other hand never really 'sacrificed' Drogo in the true sense of it, but rather, she simply let him go after Miri Maz Dhur left him as a comatose zombie.
Spoiler:
The original lightbringer was a sword, according to the legend. It might be laying around somewhere, to be taken up by Azor Ahai, or it might have to be forged again. Or it could be a metaphor for the dragons, whose birth marked the rebirth of magic in the world, who symbolize fire and by extension Rhlor.
No matter the case, forging Lightbringer wasn't what made Azor Ahai Azor Ahai, it was just a thing he did (wait, was he the one who did it, or was it forged for him? I'm drawing a blank on that detail). Daenerys is the only character to fit the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn, however; Jon is by all indications just one of the two other prophesied figures, who are presumably the riders of the other two dragons.
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
But I could have sworn there is a 'based on' or something at the end of the episode?
I think it's at the end of the opening credits. Do you really expect people who don't read books to read credits though?
Gitzbitah wrote: Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
Honestly I've always taken this as one of the themes of the series. Just like 'prophecies are a lie' the series espouses a cynical view of Feudalism opposed to the ideal view of many typical fantasy universes. There is no 'true' king in Westeros. Just a mountain of men and women playing a blood game to see who gets to sit in the fancy chair.
Gitzbitah wrote: Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
Honestly I've always taken this as one of the themes of the series. Just like 'prophecies are a lie' the series espouses a cynical view of Feudalism opposed to the ideal view of many typical fantasy universes. There is no 'true' king in Westeros. Just a mountain of men and women playing a blood game to see who gets to sit in the fancy chair.
Have you read the books, or just watched GoT? Because the first 2-3 books could easily be read as realpolitik parables, but about halfway through book 3 it starts getting more mystical, and "prophecies are a lie" goes right out the window, just as a great deal of the moral ambiguity that reigns in the early books does.
Thinking about it, the series could be seen as "epic good vs evil done realistically," which is to say the good guys are often sociopaths, and the villains have genuinely good intentions, and they're ultimately differentiated by who's right and who's a bumbling lunatic. Then there's the backdrop of squalor and brutality and the ramshackle, fragile way the ruling class is stitched together... Quite an unrivaled work, so far.
Just the first book. I've got the second sitting around here somewhere. But I'm a dirty cheater who reads ahead cause I want to see if I called the plot ahead of time (In this case I have not). RR keeps me on my toes XD
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
But I could have sworn there is a 'based on' or something at the end of the episode?
I think it's at the end of the opening credits. Do you really expect people who don't read books to read credits though?
Does anyone read credits, other than if they maybe want to see if an actor they like has been in anything else?
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
But I could have sworn there is a 'based on' or something at the end of the episode?
I think it's at the end of the opening credits. Do you really expect people who don't read books to read credits though?
Does anyone read credits, other than if they maybe want to see if an actor they like has been in anything else?
I read the opening credits (at least the first time I watch something) and I almost always sit through the credits at the end of a film, at least if I'm in a theater. I didn't use to, but now I do it because I'm interested and also as a respect thing. A lot of people put a ton of work and time into making a film (or TV show, as the case may be). If my name or the names of any of my friends and colleagues ever end up in the credits, it'd be nice for the names to be read as well.
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
IIRC, the true Lightbringer was a sword forged by the Champion of Light in a raging furnace and then quenched in the blood of his sacrificed wife. (been a bit since I last read 'A Clash of Kings'...)
Spoiler:
Hence why Jon is more likely to be Ahzi Azor as he's made the relevant sacrifice when he lets Yggrit die because his duty & loyalty is to the Watch.
Dany on the other hand never really 'sacrificed' Drogo in the true sense of it, but rather, she simply let him go after Miri Maz Dhur left him as a comatose zombie.
Spoiler:
The original lightbringer was a sword, according to the legend. It might be laying around somewhere, to be taken up by Azor Ahai, or it might have to be forged again. Or it could be a metaphor for the dragons, whose birth marked the rebirth of magic in the world, who symbolize fire and by extension Rhlor.
No matter the case, forging Lightbringer wasn't what made Azor Ahai Azor Ahai, it was just a thing he did (wait, was he the one who did it, or was it forged for him? I'm drawing a blank on that detail). Daenerys is the only character to fit the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn, however; Jon is by all indications just one of the two other prophesied figures, who are presumably the riders of the other two dragons.
Spoiler:
The Starks have Ice, which is a great old sword made of Valerian steel. It had always had a smokey appearance and has recently been reforged (reborn?). It could make its way back to Jon Snow.
-Loki- wrote: I only sit through the starting credits because if I walk out then, I miss what I was going to watch.
I only sit through the end credits because these days half the movie is after the end credits.
I know most people don't sit through the credits because I'm usually one of the last people to leave the theater.
I was half joking there. I personally do look at some roles - mostly producers, directors and actors. My problem with end credits is these days they include everyone, including who catered a particular days eggs for breakfast and who the receptionist at each of the two dozen special effects companies are, so it sort of grinds on a bit long for me.
There was a serious lack of topless women in the last episode.
I like the show just fine, but the mid season episodes are too 'Days of our lives' and not enough "D&D" for me. Get to the white walkers already.
Hordini wrote: Question with a spoiler from A Dance with Dragons:
Spoiler:
Do you think Melissandre is going to bring Jon back in the next book?
Spoiler:
I don't think he will die. Not that Martin has any qualms about killing characters off, but I just feel like John's story has too much potential left in it to end like that. Other stories (like the whole rebellion thing) were kind of petering out, whereas I don't believe his was. So yeah either he won't die in the end (he'll just be in a coma and then recover) or she'll do her thing. Or Martin will say 'feth it' and we'll focus even more on Dany...something I don't really want.
We don't get enough on Dany as it is in my view and what we have been getting recently is not good :(
Spoiler:
especially since she went all soppy over her mercenary lover, and lost control of the city, shut her Dragons away etc etc - for me the Dance of Dragons bits were almost without exception dire in the change to her character especially after we had to wait so long for stuff with all the other boring characters being introduced /continue don the other preceeding book. Plus the whole - by the way she's not the last Targayrn plot line, Plus no Tyrion/ Dany meeting - rubbish :(
I'd be happy if GRM killed off all the Wildlings, Sam, Jon, the tree hugging Elf wanabees, Bran etc - and quite a few of the dull people he introduced in the last couple of books as filler......but that may just be me............
Lets have Dany conquer all the cities of slavers bay with her Dragons, Unsullied and Dothraki and then sweep into save the day against the ice people - with or without the Cthulhu worshipers on her side.......then she and Tyrion can sort out the place afterwards..........
The raging furnace though? Dany was the one who walked into a giant funeral pyre, of her dead husband, and then walked out with three Dragons. Jon has done nothing of the like.
Spoiler:
Jon's body hasn't been burned just yet... give him his chance!
Anyways, there's also
Spoiler:
Martin has come out and said that Dany won't be making Westeros until book 7. But rumor has it the dragonriders will be sorted out before she even gets to Westeros, which makes it kinda hard for Jon to get a dragon unless he sets a new speed record for crossing half the world!
Besides, there's got to be a decent reason why he's had Tyrion & Jorah especially continue to hang around.
Thinking about it, old Mormont's body was never burned after the betrayal at Krastor's Keep. How epic a showdown would it be to see Jorah have to go against his father who's been turned into a blue-eyed wight?!
The raging furnace though? Dany was the one who walked into a giant funeral pyre, of her dead husband, and then walked out with three Dragons. Jon has done nothing of the like.
Spoiler:
Jon's body hasn't been burned just yet... give him his chance!
Spoiler:
Jon's more tied to the North, and the druid skinwalker magic. I think he's going to end up stuck in his wolf for a while, possibly until Melisandre or his treehugging brother figure out a way to cast him back into a body. Magic has started to blur, and we're seeing rifts in the supernatural forces as well now- which is just awesome. Comatose, wolfbound, undead, dead, all of these theories have equal value for Jon Snow's future! Heck, we may see some Wildling magic, since he did bring them south of the wall and go native. Those guys are even more invested in some part of Jon surviving than the Fire Lady.
I watched it last night and nearly did a spit take when the gak hit the fan!
I am watching the show before reading the book, books are always better and this way the show isn't ruined for me because of lack of detail, creative liberties etc.
After my initial shock I was like "yup, I had a feeling that would happen from the very first scene" then I remembered it's GoTs, everyone dies all the time.
In reality what's more surprising is how many people die from battle/murder compared to what would kill most people in a pseudo-medieval world; disease and famine. I am amazed that no important characters have died from a tooth infection yet.
I have no affiliation anymore, my home boys are the Starks you know, even got their stein which I drink from regularly, whos crew am I going to follow now?
I hate the: Boltons, Freys, Lannisters, Tyrels, Greyjoys
I am indifferent towards: Baratheons, Tullys, Arryns
I only saw the Starks as the true upholders of honour and justice, who the hell even represents that anymore.
Stormborn I like but I just have this sinking feeling she wont be getting to Westeros any time soon.
House Stark makes some really not wise choices and has a very old past which has made them far too many enemies that they were quick to trust. Ironborn,Boltons etc.
My favorite for the longest time though.
I like House Stark. Hell I have a big mancrush on Sean Bean but for the most part they expect the best out of people in a world were treachery is commonplace.
unmercifulconker wrote: I hate the boltons solely for their pleasure of torture, sick people need to be punished by the lord of light.
Lets hope the white walkers move on westeros and claim their pathetic house soon.
Martin's made some rather snide hints that Westeros is in for a huge fething-over in Winds of Winter... which at the rate he's going will finally be published by about 2053! (on the plus side, that's likely still before Sisters of Battle get their new codex update! )
More Dakka wrote: I watched it last night and nearly did a spit take when the gak hit the fan!
I am watching the show before reading the book, books are always better and this way the show isn't ruined for me because of lack of detail, creative liberties etc.
After my initial shock I was like "yup, I had a feeling that would happen from the very first scene" then I remembered it's GoTs, everyone dies all the time.
In reality what's more surprising is how many people die from battle/murder compared to what would kill most people in a pseudo-medieval world; disease and famine. I am amazed that no important characters have died from a tooth infection yet.
The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there, and much is made of the food stores being depleted by the War of the Five Kings (where instead of continuing to harvest crops up through the end of summer and early fall (keep in mind the cosmology: seasons are longer than years; side note: then where do they get the idea of years from? Are they just an arbitrary number of lunar months or something?), everyone was fighting or fleeing, and fields were trampled or burned).
There's also the maesters, who are portrayed as quite competent medics, in addition to the existence of medicines that seem to be more functional than equivalent tech-level real world ones.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
If you read the previews for The Winds of Winter, there's a good example of this.
Spoiler:
One of Stannis' lieutenants recommends he flee across the Narrow Sea with his new found wealth to build an army of mercenaries. Stannis replied that this is a conflict he can't flee from, and he references Viserys Targaryen. When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Oh, forgot about him.
I don't know about how much "win or die" holds true; it seems plenty of characters run off on arcs entirely separate from their original conflict and do just fine suffer horribly but still overcome it.
Unrelated but brought to mind by this:
Spoiler:
I'm not the only one who noticed that both Stark girls got what they originally wanted but in horribly less idealized ways, am I? Arya wanted to be an adventurer, and wound up seeing what that actually entailed, only to take in stride things we see breaking grown men only to end up a remarkably well balanced sociopathic killing machine. Sansa likewise experiences first hand the cesspool of more-typical-highborn society.
I find that bit hilarious on so many levels. The deconstruction of those (fairly) common fantasy tropes is just wonderful.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Spoiler:
Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Spoiler:
Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?
~Tim?
Spoiler:
he's dead jim someone else took up his helmet and is impersonating him
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Spoiler:
Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?
~Tim?
Spoiler:
he's dead jim someone else took up his helmet and is impersonating him
Spoiler:
Yup, the Meister that buried him flat out stated it was him, as he'd met him. He put the helmet on top of the grave, and someone else grabbed it and started raping and pillaging (something the Hound didn't actually do himself).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Spoiler:
Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?
~Tim?
Spoiler:
he's dead jim someone else took up his helmet and is impersonating him
Spoiler:
Yup, the Meister that buried him flat out stated it was him, as he'd met him. He put the helmet on top of the grave, and someone else grabbed it and started raping and pillaging (something the Hound didn't actually do himself).
Spoiler:
Except that Sandor isn't really dead, because that Meister was speaking metaphorically...
Sandor's alive - he was the grave digger at the little monestary-type place that Brienne & Podrick pass through. Stranger is there as well, being insanely stubborn & ill tempered and causing trouble for the other monks who can't handle him!
The Lord of Light obviously still has a purpose for Sandor!
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Spoiler:
Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?
~Tim?
Spoiler:
A priest claims to have buried him, and someone else had his helmet, so I don't think it's too up in the air.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there
I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).
Spoiler:
The Hound died of infection.
Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.
When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.
There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.
Spoiler:
Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?
~Tim?
Spoiler:
he's dead jim someone else took up his helmet and is impersonating him
Spoiler:
Yup, the Meister that buried him flat out stated it was him, as he'd met him. He put the helmet on top of the grave, and someone else grabbed it and started raping and pillaging (something the Hound didn't actually do himself).
Spoiler:
Except that Sandor isn't really dead, because that Meister was speaking metaphorically...
Sandor's alive - he was the grave digger at the little monestary-type place that Brienne & Podrick pass through. Stranger is there as well, being insanely stubborn & ill tempered and causing trouble for the other monks who can't handle him!
The Lord of Light obviously still has a purpose for Sandor!
Spoiler:
That's interesting - do you have the page that describes him?
Seriously, it'll make my fiancee immensely pleases, since he's her favorite character.
Experiment 626 wrote: If there's one thing Martin enjoys even more than killing off your favourite character/s, it's giving those characters a fake death!
I really didn't like how this turned out...bit too much magic stuff added to GoT here. I mean, zombies? :/
Sigvatr wrote: I really didn't like how this turned out...bit too much magic stuff added to GoT here. I mean, zombies? :/
Not sure if serious...
The first freakin' chapter of the series highlighted how the rest of it was going to go. The whole point of the books is that magic is coming back and that it is corresponding with Winter.
Pretty serious. I'm a huge fan of the series. Magic isn't like magic, there's different kinds of how magic could work e.g. with the ice zombies. But *spoiler* becoming a half-zombie is just...weird :/
Sigvatr wrote: Pretty serious. I'm a huge fan of the series. Magic isn't like magic, there's different kinds of how magic could work e.g. with the ice zombies. But *spoiler* becoming a half-zombie is just...weird :/
But that's a lot of the point of the series. There used to be magic way back in the day. That's why there was dragons, white walkers, mages in the east etc so on. It went away so dragons died off, the white walkers went into hibernation, mages became charlatans, etc. Now it is coming back and all those things work again, even the 'raise dead' spells. Huge arcs of the story are dependent on those things.
Sigvatr wrote: Pretty serious. I'm a huge fan of the series. Magic isn't like magic, there's different kinds of how magic could work e.g. with the ice zombies. But *spoiler* becoming a half-zombie is just...weird :/
But that's a lot of the point of the series. There used to be magic way back in the day. That's why there was dragons, white walkers, mages in the east etc so on. It went away so dragons died off, the white walkers went into hibernation, mages became charlatans, etc. Now it is coming back and all those things work again, even the 'raise dead' spells. Huge arcs of the story are dependent on those things.
Hopefully the next book will reveal 'The Others' that are actually even more bad@$$ & worse than the White Walkers! (yes, there's far, far worse things coming than just the Walkers... Like the giant Frost/Ice Spiders for one thing. )
The Others? Oh no, next thing ya know we'll have Dharma drops full of ranch dressing so fat guys can eat that to stay fat, so the producers don't have to come up with a reason why the they can't lose weight on a desert island where you have to walk everywhere.
Necros wrote: The Others? Oh no, next thing ya know we'll have Dharma drops full of ranch dressing so fat guys can eat that to stay fat, so the producers don't have to come up with a reason why the they can't lose weight on a desert island where you have to walk everywhere.
War's over man. War's over. You can let it go. They can't hurt you any more.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?
In the books, the White Walkers, Ice Spiders and such all collectively referenced as 'The Others'.
Martin has given some rather juicy hints about what's coming over the Wall through Sam's POV due to his love of losing himself in Castle Black's endless libraries.
Suffice it to say, the Walkers are just the tip of the perverbial iceburg.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?
In the books, the White Walkers, Ice Spiders and such all collectively referenced as 'The Others'.
Martin has given some rather juicy hints about what's coming over the Wall through Sam's POV due to his love of losing himself in Castle Black's endless libraries.
Suffice it to say, the Walkers are just the tip of the perverbial iceburg.
Ah, so Others refers to the race / faction / whatever.
After several hundred years, the precision of any term is questionable at best. No one living remembers what the Others were, what the Lord of Light was really like, or what the exact limits of dragons are. What they have are bones, stories that became legends, ancient text and bardsong. Any hard fact has been distorted by time, excitement, terror and sheer self serving exaggeration.
Gitzbitah wrote: After several hundred years, the precision of any term is questionable at best. No one living remembers what the Others were, what the Lord of Light was really like, or what the exact limits of dragons are. What they have are bones, stories that became legends, ancient text and bardsong. Any hard fact has been distorted by time, excitement, terror and sheer self serving exaggeration.
Spoiler:
Except folks like Bran can apparently travel through time and see what happened.
Your average Westerosi using the term (even their specialized zombie fighters, the Night's Watch) is most likely misusing it at this point in the series.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?
The Ice Demon from the prologue of the first book is an Other; they're the things creating/leading the wights (and the term for them as an army, the way a Lannister force could be referred to as just "the Lannisters" or some such). I can't recall if the term "white walker" is used in the books at all; the book makes it pretty clear that the Others are distinct from the wights, while the show conflates the two under the term "white walker".
It's not clear if the dragons were born because magic was reentering the world, or if they're the spark that rekindled the cooling embers. It's ambiguous whether the health of dragons relied upon or supported the health of magic. Specifically the magic of man, revolving around fire and life (or its sacrifice); the magic of the REDACTED seems to have been pretty unimpeded, even if it dwindled since the First Men came to Westeros, and the darker magic tied to ice seems like it was suppressed by the power of fire magic, in the form of Old Valyria and the Targeryan dragons, since its previous loss some eight thousand years prior to the current point in the story. To go off on rambling speculation about the cosmology of the setting.
Epileptic Trees theory: Baelish is Azor Ahai reborn. Born in a seaside keep, which was probably quite smoky, to grow up and "wake dragons" (gold coins) from "stone" (accounting wizardry).
The idea about the dragons and man's magic is an interesting comparison. It would seem to explain why the old dragons of the Targaryens kept dying at smaller and smaller sizes. As magic became less prevalent, they became weaker.
djones520 wrote: The idea about the dragons and man's magic is an interesting comparison. It would seem to explain why the old dragons of the Targaryens kept dying at smaller and smaller sizes. As magic became less prevalent, they became weaker.
Or magic dwindled as the physical manifestation of fire magic became stunted and weak from mistreatment by their handlers (being kept confined in the dragon pit in king's landing, and ultimately poisoned by a mad Targeryan). The direction of causation isn't clear, and I'm not about to argue for either side in particular.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: I can't recall if the term "white walker" is used in the books at all; the book makes it pretty clear that the Others are distinct from the wights, while the show conflates the two under the term "white walker".
It is, mostly in the first book. IIRC, Old Nan specifically says the White Walkers, and they also specifically call the undead 'wights'. They also do in the show. Mormont called the one Jon killed near his room a wight, but after season 1 it's sort of become a bit muddied.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: I can't recall if the term "white walker" is used in the books at all; the book makes it pretty clear that the Others are distinct from the wights, while the show conflates the two under the term "white walker".
It is, mostly in the first book. IIRC, Old Nan specifically says the White Walkers, and they also specifically call the undead 'wights'. They also do in the show. Mormont called the one Jon killed near his room a wight, but after season 1 it's sort of become a bit muddied.
That's what I was thinking: that it did show up as one of a myriad of names for them, for all that most of what you see is "wights" and "Others", but I couldn't remember for sure. I'm kind of assuming the show went for "white walkers" over "wights" and "Others" because of the needs of a cinematic medium; in the books you have spelling and capitalization to differentiate them, but when it's all spoken it gets a bit ambiguous, and they have enough problems making the story clear without the benefits of text as it is (if I hadn't read the books, I feel as though I would be completely lost plotwise).
Also I'm completely hammered, so please forgive any errors here because I'm having great difficulty focusing my eyes to read anything.
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
That's a big part of the point: it's despicable and revolting. Even without the specific traditions and codes of conduct present in the setting it's a sickening act that inspires a burning desire to flay those involved and hang them with their own intestines. Such betrayal is just... blindingly enraging, even in fiction.
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
That's a big part of the point: it's despicable and revolting. Even without the specific traditions and codes of conduct present in the setting it's a sickening act that inspires a burning desire to flay those involved and hang them with their own intestines. Such betrayal is just... blindingly enraging, even in fiction.
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
That's a big part of the point: it's despicable and revolting. Even without the specific traditions and codes of conduct present in the setting it's a sickening act that inspires a burning desire to flay those involved and hang them with their own intestines. Such betrayal is just... blindingly enraging, even in fiction.
Spoiler:
That was one of the downsides of the episode as well, that it didn't explain the significance of guest right near as much as the books did. They did show the scene where they ate bread and salt, but it didn't drive home how important that gesture really is in the setting of GoT. If I remember the book right, I think that Mama Stark was very affraid that something would happen at the Twins and that Frey would seek revenge on them. She really urged and pushed Robb to try to eat as quickly as possible, knowing that they would never be safe from anything unless they ate and fell under the protection of Guest Right. Without Guest Right Lord Frey could do whatever he wanted, but Guest Right specifically protects you from harm even if you are in the castle of your enemies. The Red Wedding was bad enough, but the fact that it happens while his guests fell under his protection under Guest Right is really what pushes it over the edge for the other houses.
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
That's a big part of the point: it's despicable and revolting. Even without the specific traditions and codes of conduct present in the setting it's a sickening act that inspires a burning desire to flay those involved and hang them with their own intestines. Such betrayal is just... blindingly enraging, even in fiction.
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
That's a big part of the point: it's despicable and revolting. Even without the specific traditions and codes of conduct present in the setting it's a sickening act that inspires a burning desire to flay those involved and hang them with their own intestines. Such betrayal is just... blindingly enraging, even in fiction.
Spoiler:
That was one of the downsides of the episode as well, that it didn't explain the significance of guest right near as much as the books did. They did show the scene where they ate bread and salt, but it didn't drive home how important that gesture really is in the setting of GoT. If I remember the book right, I think that Mama Stark was very affraid that something would happen at the Twins and that Frey would seek revenge on them. She really urged and pushed Robb to try to eat as quickly as possible, knowing that they would never be safe from anything unless they ate and fell under the protection of Guest Right. Without Guest Right Lord Frey could do whatever he wanted, but Guest Right specifically protects you from harm even if you are in the castle of your enemies. The Red Wedding was bad enough, but the fact that it happens while his guests fell under his protection under Guest Right is really what pushes it over the edge for the other houses.
Yeah. It's bad enough from our perspective, but in the context of the setting it's absolutely inconceivable.
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
That's a big part of the point: it's despicable and revolting. Even without the specific traditions and codes of conduct present in the setting it's a sickening act that inspires a burning desire to flay those involved and hang them with their own intestines. Such betrayal is just... blindingly enraging, even in fiction.
Spoiler:
That was one of the downsides of the episode as well, that it didn't explain the significance of guest right near as much as the books did. They did show the scene where they ate bread and salt, but it didn't drive home how important that gesture really is in the setting of GoT. If I remember the book right, I think that Mama Stark was very affraid that something would happen at the Twins and that Frey would seek revenge on them. She really urged and pushed Robb to try to eat as quickly as possible, knowing that they would never be safe from anything unless they ate and fell under the protection of Guest Right. Without Guest Right Lord Frey could do whatever he wanted, but Guest Right specifically protects you from harm even if you are in the castle of your enemies. The Red Wedding was bad enough, but the fact that it happens while his guests fell under his protection under Guest Right is really what pushes it over the edge for the other houses.
Spoiler:
Well, Lord Frey does indeed point out the significance of Guest Right when he declares that Rob & his party are under his protection and swears by it in the sight of gods & men. Subtle, but it's there and only a complete moron would likely remain utterly ignorant of it. (but then, look at how many dumb***es don't even realise the show is based on fething a series of novels! )
Anyways, if people are insanely freaked out by what happened on screen, they honestly should never go and actually read the book version of it since the whole affair is about 100x worse in the books, due to things like Maige Mormont & her daughter being quite literally gang-raped to death by Frey men, Catlynn's torture, what happens to Rob's body afterwards and the mock feast the Freys set-up, etc...
Overall for once, DB Wiess & Dave Benioff actually toned things way down!
I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.
The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.
If you think it was too brutal for even Game of Thrones setting, you need only look into our own past to see the inspiration of the scene.
it was a treacherous, brutal act, and was similarly done by real nobles during medieval times. Does that make our world as bad as Westeros? Probably.
Yeah Roose likes to mess with people I guess, remember the good laugh we all shared as he told Jaime of his sisters health following the attack of kings landing?
I cannot wait or at least I really hope that someone just crusades through the North smiting the heretics who betrayed their brothers, victory will never taste so sweet. Please Martin, do this for me.
unmercifulconker wrote: Yeah Roose likes to mess with people I guess, remember the good laugh we all shared as he told Jaime of his sisters health following the attack of kings landing?
I cannot wait or at least I really hope that someone just crusades through the North smiting the heretics who betrayed their brothers, victory will never taste so sweet. Please Martin, do this for me.
unmercifulconker wrote: Yeah Roose likes to mess with people I guess, remember the good laugh we all shared as he told Jaime of his sisters health following the attack of kings landing?
I cannot wait or at least I really hope that someone just crusades through the North smiting the heretics who betrayed their brothers, victory will never taste so sweet. Please Martin, do this for me.
I actually think Walder Frey needs to suffer the most, out of all the people who hate Robb, he is the one to do something like this, the guy who was lied to about marrying one of his 100 odd daughters? Gawd damn man dont let me down hound get in that hall and some people up!
House Frey will burn for this, the name Frey shall never be uttered again!
I didnt see or hear any of his daughters trying to stop or warn anyone of the attack. House Frey is more dishonourable. They should pay the price for being dishonourable.
unmercifulconker wrote: I didnt see or hear any of his daughters trying to stop or warn anyone of the attack. House Frey is more dishonourable. They should pay the price for being dishonourable.
Oh dear - does that also extend to children and babes in arms -
I think all of you folk need to read more between the lines of "House Manderlay's" scenes in 'Dance with Dragons.'
Or, if you're like me... Have a friendly random explain them to you.
Spoiler:
House Manderlay has been having some of their dudes go round kidnapping and killing Frey's.
Which is, you know, fair enough. Manderlay are loyal to the Starks. However, it gets better....
Spoiler:
The Manderlays have then been meeting up with the Frey's and inviting them for a few friendly banquets. Like, 'The Rains of Castamere' the Manderlays have been playing their own favourite song at the Banquet - "The Rat Cook."
Yeah, the Manderly's are awesome. Pity they aren't likely to get any screen time during the show.
Sidenote:
Rickon is suppose to be with the Manderly's in the books but has there been a single mention of him since the split with Bran? It's been so long since I read any of them.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, the Manderly's are awesome. Pity they aren't likely to get any screen time during the show.
Sidenote:
Rickon is suppose to be with the Manderly's in the books but has there been a single mention of him since the split with Bran? It's been so long since I read any of them.
Book 4/5 gets into that.
Spoiler:
Rickon never makes it there. Davos (Onion Knight) is captured by Manderly, but offered his freedom if he goes out to try to rescue Rickon whose supposedly located on an island of cannibals. No explanation was given yet how he got there.
If I remember correctly, Greatjon Umber is currently still a hostage of the Frey's. I always liked the Greatjon and if House Umber survives their split once things in the north are a bit more settled (part of the Umbers are with the Boltons and part of them are with Stannis I think), it would be very satisfying to see the Greatjon escape somehow, roll up on the Freys with his northmen and burn the Twins to the ground. I'm guessing I'm going to be disappointed though.
There is an article which, I apologise for as I cant remember which site I seen it but the creators of the show reckon the show is nearly at half way point. Book readers reckon this might take us to the 5/6 book?
I was devestated by this news but someone pointed out it would be stupid to go to the end when some of the actors would not look their age.
Ill start reading the past books soon anyway to catch up and then when the show finishes....
unmercifulconker wrote: I was devestated by this news but someone pointed out it would be stupid to go to the end when some of the actors would not look their age.
Given how frequently characters in this show die, I wouldn't think that would be a problem.
Well... the good part about it all, is not counting Sanda, they really haven't put anyone in an age group. In the books we knew how old all the characters are, but they made sure we didn't have to worry about that with the series.
Unles you actually buy that Jon Snow and Rob Stark were 15 when they ended up where they are now.
Unles you actually buy that Jon Snow and Rob Stark were 15 when they ended up where they are now.
Within the context of the setting that is perfectly plausible, life is a lot shorter afterall so people are classed as adults earlier, just like we were in the medieval period, and both John and Robb gained their positions due to unexpected events.
Unles you actually buy that Jon Snow and Rob Stark were 15 when they ended up where they are now.
Within the context of the setting that is perfectly plausible, life is a lot shorter afterall so people are classed as adults earlier, just like we were in the medieval period, and both John and Robb gained their positions due to unexpected events.
I mean in the show. In the books, totally. But the show, there was no way they were representing 14 year olds at the very beginning. Daenarys as well. She was 13/14 at the very start of the story.
Unles you actually buy that Jon Snow and Rob Stark were 15 when they ended up where they are now.
Within the context of the setting that is perfectly plausible, life is a lot shorter afterall so people are classed as adults earlier, just like we were in the medieval period, and both John and Robb gained their positions due to unexpected events.
As someone that has read the books I always felt just a little creepy when watching our favorite Mother of Dragons prance around naked, considering that when we first see her topless she would be 13.
There is a reason why they don't really mention ages all that much in the show methinks.
They do indirectly, though. We know when Robert's War was (18 years earlier in the show (14 years in the books)), making Jon and Rob 18, and Daenerys 17-18 at the start of the show. The younger characters are also given ages, each about two years higher than in the books as I recall.
It's with the older characters that the differences become more extreme: Tyrion is somewhere in his early twenties, Jaime and Cersei are 29, Eddard is 35, Cat somewhere in her early 30s; they're much younger than they appear in the show.
Well GRRM has said that he originally intended to have a two year time jump between one of the books, but decided against it because of flow, so all the characters in the books are two years younger than he actually wanted them to be as of right now.
A Feast for Crows was supposed to pick up two years afterA Storm of Swords, with the intervening story told loosely through flashbacks and exposition. He realized that wouldn't work, and so fleshed out the intervening bits into books 4 and 5, as I understand it. We're now at the point where book 4 was supposed to start, more or less (the important bit of the passage of time was the growth of the dragons and the travel time a number of characters faced).
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: They do indirectly, though. We know when Robert's War was (18 years earlier in the show (14 years in the books)), making Jon and Rob 18, and Daenerys 17-18 at the start of the show. The younger characters are also given ages, each about two years higher than in the books as I recall.
It's with the older characters that the differences become more extreme: Tyrion is somewhere in his early twenties, Jaime and Cersei are 29, Eddard is 35, Cat somewhere in her early 30s; they're much younger than they appear in the show.
Well, aging everyone up a decade or two is at least a far better change than trying to make everyone look identical to the actual book characters...*shudder*
Unles you actually buy that Jon Snow and Rob Stark were 15 when they ended up where they are now.
Within the context of the setting that is perfectly plausible, life is a lot shorter afterall so people are classed as adults earlier, just like we were in the medieval period, and both John and Robb gained their positions due to unexpected events.
Your point about Jon and Robb getting thrust into their roles young is a good one, but a couple of points...
A) People didn't actually have dramatically shorter lifespans in the medieval period. On AVERAGE lifespans were shorter, but that's mostly from a high infant mortality rate and the fact that if you got seriously ill or badly injured, there wasn't all that much that could be done. But if you avoided a major accident or sickness a medieval person could live pretty close to as long as we do.
B) It's a popular misconception that people used to be considered adults much younger. Among the NOBILITY specifically, they often accorded a person certain adult rights young, to allow for orderly succession or for political marriages without waiting for the kid to actually grow up. But in most of Europe people actually physically matured later than we do today, and weren't considered adults younger (although they also didn't have our culture of protecting kids). It was pretty common for people not to hit puberty until their late teens, and the English thought it was kind of scandalous how girls as young as 18 were getting married in the American colonies, because they were short of women. Back then people didn't physically mature as fast, because they didn't generally have as rich and plentiful a diet, and they didn't have central heating, so a lot of their caloric intake was spent just staying warm for half the year. Nowadays with central heating and tons of cheap, high-calorie food it's like growing flowers in a hothouse. That's why we have kids hitting puberty much younger.
But if you avoided a major accident or sickness a medieval person could live pretty close to as long as we do.
Of course but the chances of reaching old age were significantly reduced before the advent of modern medicine, it is even less likely in an environment as unstable and violent as Westeros.
B) It's a popular misconception that people used to be considered adults much younger.
I didn't mean much younger, simply younger. Children in the medieval period were still expected the play adult roles on occasion, especially Noble Children. If Robb Stark was 12 then I would find it unlikely but as I said at 15 its plausable given the cuircumstances.
But if you avoided a major accident or sickness a medieval person could live pretty close to as long as we do.
Of course but the chances of reaching old age were significantly reduced before the advent of modern medicine, it is even less likely in an environment as unstable and violent as Westeros.
B) It's a popular misconception that people used to be considered adults much younger.
I didn't mean much younger, simply younger. Children in the medieval period were still expected the play adult roles on occasion, especially Noble Children. If Robb Stark was 12 then I would find it unlikely but as I said at 15 its plausable given the cuircumstances.
Wasnt it only the very rich who began to see their young as a seperate stage of life? Everyone else would view their young as just mini adults and expect them to do as much as them.
Mixed with the fact that people would hit 'maturity' much younger back then and life would be much more short lived than today, it helps me cope with the age difference on the book to series.
I just watched episode nine a few hours ago, and I have to say I love how it kept the emotional tone so positive right up until the band starts playing The Rains of Castamere. That must have really sucker punched everyone who didn't know what was coming.
I have something that is spoiler free and interesting for non book reading game of thrones viewers that are upset about last week’s episode. Martin includes hundreds of pages of history and lore about Westeros within his books, and much is cut out of the series because they have to compress giant books into only 10 hours. I’m going to cut and past the story of the rat cook, and infamous man of the night’s watch that lived hundreds of years before Aegon brought his dragons to Westeros. The story is relevant because it shows what values are most important to a society.
History
According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal King a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the King, the King's own son. The Cook killed the King's son, a Prince, in revenge for a wrong the King supposedly did to him. The King was unaware of this however as he ate and praised the taste and asked for a second piece. The gods, angry because the cook had slain a guest beneath his roof, cursed the cook and transformed him into a massive rat who was doomed to be unable to eat anything but his own young.
According to the story, he is an enormous white rat and all the other rats that inhabit the Nightfort are his descendants
Song
Such is the infamy of the tale that there is a song about the Rat Cook that is still sung in the Seven Kingdoms, despite the fact that this incident was supposed to have happened hundreds of years before Aegon's landing. The song is used to represent the repercussions to those who violate the sacred laws of hospitality in the Seven Kingdoms, which is known as the Guest right.
Yep that’s right by the morality of Westeros the rat cook’s greatest sin was breaking the sacred laws of hospitality/the Guest right
People lived to ripe old ages fairly often historically speaking. Usually if you made it to the age of 12 you'd probably live about as long as we do today. You might not necessarily live well as malnutrition was very common but you'd live. Modern medicine's main contribution is the massive reduction to infant mortality and maternal death more than anything. The gradual decrease in the frequency of warfare, at least for the west, contributes more to the lack of premature death for adults.
The War thing is a definite, Europe generally had about one large war every generation or so, this pattern was only stymied with the Napoleonic Wars as Europe had almost a century of peace after their cessation. Unfortunately the pattern started up again with WW1 and likely would have continued had it not been for the Nuclear Bomb. Without MAD I'm pretty sure that Nato and the Warsaw Pact would have gone at it before the century was out.
schadenfreude wrote: I have something that is spoiler free and interesting for non book reading game of thrones viewers that are upset about last week’s episode. Martin includes hundreds of pages of history and lore about Westeros within his books, and much is cut out of the series because they have to compress giant books into only 10 hours. I’m going to cut and past the story of the rat cook, and infamous man of the night’s watch that lived hundreds of years before Aegon brought his dragons to Westeros. The story is relevant because it shows what values are most important to a society.
History
According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal King a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the King, the King's own son. The Cook killed the King's son, a Prince, in revenge for a wrong the King supposedly did to him. The King was unaware of this however as he ate and praised the taste and asked for a second piece. The gods, angry because the cook had slain a guest beneath his roof, cursed the cook and transformed him into a massive rat who was doomed to be unable to eat anything but his own young.
According to the story, he is an enormous white rat and all the other rats that inhabit the Nightfort are his descendants
Song
Such is the infamy of the tale that there is a song about the Rat Cook that is still sung in the Seven Kingdoms, despite the fact that this incident was supposed to have happened hundreds of years before Aegon's landing. The song is used to represent the repercussions to those who violate the sacred laws of hospitality in the Seven Kingdoms, which is known as the Guest right.
Yep that’s right by the morality of Westeros the rat cook’s greatest sin was breaking the sacred laws of hospitality/the Guest right
Wait so the books have other background and extended fluff to go with the story? Damn I did not know this. Thanks!
Yeah, that kind of background information isn't spoilery in the same way as current plot stuff is, but a good deal of the fun of ASoIaF is the slow fleshing out of the world, where all these in-universe references are finally expounded upon.
That said, didn't the rat cook thing just show up later in Storm of Swords? When REDACTED are at the castle at REDACTED they tell the story, and get freaked out by noises from the well?
d-usa wrote: That story should have been a spoiler for the future!
Today's episode was a bit anti-climactic, but I guess the red wedding is a tough act to follow. Arya is advancing her story quite nicely though.
It's kinda hard to top the Red Wedding, at least until...
Spoiler:
The Royal Wedding!!!
Putting Dany's story right at the very end was at least a decent 'feel good' ending to the season though, especially considering the mass butt-hurt that's been exploding across the intertubes all week long due to last week's events.
Meanwhile, Sam/Bran & Stanis' point of view scenes have given a super ominous "we're all pretty f***ed!" feeling to everything.
I'm sure the tween girls who watch only because of Kit Harrington are soon to take to the nets and rage about Jon Snow's ending...
Spoiler:
If you thought the massive internet gak-storm of the Red Wedding was something to behold... just wait 2 more seasons.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote: Yeah, that kind of background information isn't spoilery in the same way as current plot stuff is, but a good deal of the fun of ASoIaF is the slow fleshing out of the world, where all these in-universe references are finally expounded upon.
That said, didn't the rat cook thing just show up later in Storm of Swords? When REDACTED are at the castle at REDACTED they tell the story, and get freaked out by noises from the well?
Spoiler:
I was mostly commenting on the fact that Bran told the story if the rat cook tonight, and mentioned that there are some things the gods never forget...
If you thought the massive internet gak-storm of the Red Wedding was something to behold... just wait 2 more seasons.
2? At least 3, unless they start slashing things left and right. And we'll know how that ends up by then too; I'm in the camp of "everything will end up fine because magic".
Edit: My response to the hilarity of the internet's reaction to episode nine:
Spoiler:
And so they spoke, and so they spoke, those fans of Rob Stark here,
Cause now they have no hope for GoT,
Since The Rains of Castamere.
Ratbarf wrote: The War thing is a definite, Europe generally had about one large war every generation or so, this pattern was only stymied with the Napoleonic Wars as Europe had almost a century of peace after their cessation. Unfortunately the pattern started up again with WW1 and likely would have continued had it not been for the Nuclear Bomb. Without MAD I'm pretty sure that Nato and the Warsaw Pact would have gone at it before the century was out.
65 years (1815-1870) isn't really a century, even stretching it. This is the first century since... (wow, a long time ago) that there hasn't been a major war in Europe the first 15-20 years, assuming we don't feth up royally (looking at you, Hungary!).
If you thought the massive internet gak-storm of the Red Wedding was something to behold... just wait 2 more seasons.
2? At least 3, unless they start slashing things left and right. And we'll know how that ends up by then too; I'm in the camp of "everything will end up fine because magic".
Edit: My response to the hilarity of the internet's reaction to episode nine:
Spoiler:
And so they spoke, and so they spoke, those fans of Rob Stark here,
Cause now they have no hope for GoT,
Since The Rains of Castamere.
Spoiler:
I can see the Jon Snow thing happening by Episode 9 of Season 5 honestly.
I mean, Theon's story from this season is a book 5 event, and DB Wiess & Dave Benioff have said that they are planning to not actually film book 4 on it's own due to the dullness/lack of action.
All of the relevant book 4 stuff will simply be sprinkled across the book 3/5 seasons.
Plus, I do hope they cut out certain things, like the stupid little female dwarf who ends up tagging along with Tyrion... All she does is cry and whine and lust for Tyrion, then cry a lot more! Just throw Tyrion & Jorah to the fighting pits and that story arc will be improved 100%!
They could probably catch up to the books by the end of Season 4 - there is an awful lot of filler in the later books and new POV characters that add nothing to the overarching story.
I am hoping that the TV show takes alot of this out and rewrites plenty of it.
Mr Morden wrote: They could probably catch up to the books by the end of Season 4 - there is an awful lot of filler in the later books and new POV characters that add nothing to the overarching story.
I am hoping that the TV show takes alot of this out and rewrites plenty of it.
Well, next season will be the later half of Storm of Swords as the main content. Personally, I'm expecting next season to cover;
(Okay, major, huge spoilers here obviously!)
Spoiler:
Joffery's wedding (which will have people cheering by the end of it!)
Tyrion's trial & Obryn Martel vs Gregor Clegaine
Tywin Lannister gakking (not) gold (insert more cheering!)
Jon Snow's trial, plus Manse Rayder's assault on The Wall
Bran's team meeting up with Cold Hands
Brienne & Podrick set out on their epic quest
Arya concludes her Westeros journey
Dany conquers Mereen and does something incredibly stupid to celebrate!
In between all that there's still room for a few of the more important side stories like Little Finger's constant scheming, Cersi failing at being clever, etc...
The other main thing to keep in mind too, while Winds of Winter may not see release until 2015! both DB Wiess & Dave Benioff have been given the basic plans by Martin of where he's taking the story overall.
It pretty much a given that the series will conclude before Martin finishes the final book actually!
And that's a good thing. I think they've been very consistant with the books while making worthwhile changes and a solid trimming of fat even in the first three books. Book 4 felt like almost entirely fat and much of the entire plot lines of the book won't take up more than 45 minutes of actual screen time which is a plus. HBO is doing a bang up job and based on the show if it finishes before the final books are out I'm less than likely to buy them as GRRM has seriously annoyed me with his inability to complete his books in a reasonable time frame (bear in mind several excellent authors generally turn out 1-2 books a year with a nearly equivelant length and depth to GRRM's books).
- Writing a Game of Thrones coffee table book
- Working on a collection of Tyrion’s quips entitled The Wit and Wisdom of Tyrion Lannister
- Writing reviews of The Great Gatsby on his blog
- Editing Rogues
- Editing Wild Cards
- Having his biography recorded in comic-book form
- Recommending books to read while you wait for him to write the next Game of Thrones book
- Buying a movie theater
- Appearing at various conventions
- Watching football
Don't get me started. My bar has been set by reasonable expectations that good authors with a mapped out story line can produce novels at least on a yearly basis in the range of 500-600 pages. General two novels of this size while attending conventions, doing signing tours, and editting and contributing to short story omnibuses.
Add to that the subpar books 4 and 5 (the books that took by far the longest to write) and he's not getting sympathy from me.
Bear in mind a reasonable time frame for me would accept a novel once in 3 years based on individual abilities to complete novels and writers being artists and such. However he doesn't even meet that standard.
Personally the main reason I was excited for the GoT show on HBO is that I was likely to get a resolution for the whole story line before his next book came out based on the pacing of his writing.
Not that I know how Martin writes but not all authors are capable of mapping out a storyline. For some it ruins the experience of writing to know ahead of time what is going to happen and they just aren't able to function like that. Most authors fall into that category with super organized story planners being a minority. SoIaF is a big project, and in terms of scale very ambitious. I've lost interest in writing much smaller works. There's at least 20 unfinished short stories lying around here in my room.
Not that I want to make excuses really, but writing is hard even when you enjoy it. 500-600 pages is a HUGE book. Assuming (assuming!) the typical 500 words a page average of most publishers that's 250,000-300,000 words. Most books are not half that long. Just saying we should cut him a little slack. Most authors never attempt anything of that scale. That he's produced 5 books is a pretty huge achievement for an author.
We're wondering off topic so I won't respond in detail to what you wrote. I simply disagree. Feel free to PM me and we can discuss further or we'll just agree to disagree
Nah I can understand disagreeing. Especially since I only just started reading the series when the TV series hit. I haven't been sitting around waiting for an ending since 1996 or anything like that. He does produce those books at a slow pace. Other authors in the genre have produced entire series' in the amount of time it took him to get to book 4.
I just know from experience that while writing itself is easy when you like it enough, carrying a story to fruition is not (and making it really good is harder). Anyone who manages to write even a 100,000 word novel and make it coherent gets props from me
The one thing that kind of bugs me with the show is the whole dragon lady storyline. I'm sure it's important and some day she'll finally get her slave army over to the mainland to cause trouble.. but maybe it's just because of how it's all filmed and edited but it feels like all her stuff is just added in, like it's a whole extra story that would be better off in it's own little spinoff show or something. I find myself really only caring about what's going off with the "main" storyline, and every time they start showing not-Morocco I start losing interest, till they finally cut back to what feels like the real story.
In all seriousness though, it is a problem with the books as well. There are many storylines and we don't see the whole picture yet for how everything fits together. Although at this point, there are some good theories. Dany is very important to the future of Westeros, but doesn't have the manpower or means to get there yet.
Peter Dinklage Doesn't Watch Game of Thrones: "I Don't Have HBO"
Here's a twist Game of Thrones fans probably weren't expecting: Peter Dinklage doesn't watch the show!
The actor, 43, who stars as emotionally and physically scarred Tyrion Lannister on the HBO hit, recently told photographers in Montreal, "I don't watch the show." (Dinklage is in Canada filming X-Men: Days of Future Past.)
"I mean, I don't have HBO," the casually dressed Dinklage, who has a baby daughter with wife Erica Schmidt, said in the short video, posted on TMZ.
As for his reaction to the shocking "Red Wedding" episode, he deadpanned, "That was, like, a year ago for me."
In the May 2013 issue of Playboy, Dinklage talked about his "badass" on-screen persona versus real life. "There's a scene in the show when I chop a man's leg off from behind," he said, explaining that the stunt man was an elderly amputee. "He had one leg, so basically I just knocked out the fake leg…. So to answer your question, no I don't feel like a badass. The fight scenes are all a big lie."
In the same interview, the modest actor also talks about being labeled a "DwILF": “DwILF, as in Dwarf I'd Like to F--k? That's very clever. Honestly, I think there's an irony in all of this. I take it with a grain of salt. They'll say, 'Oh, he's sexy,' but women still go for guys who are six-foot-two. It's nice that people are thinking outside the box, but I don't believe any of it for a minute.”
d-usa wrote: Today's episode was a bit anti-climactic, but I guess the red wedding is a tough act to follow. Arya is advancing her story quite nicely though.
Episode 10 is always a more subdued reaction episode to episode 9 in this series.
Regarding Dinklage, it's not all uncommon for actors to not watch themselves anyway.
d-usa wrote: Today's episode was a bit anti-climactic, but I guess the red wedding is a tough act to follow. Arya is advancing her story quite nicely though.
Episode 10 is always a more subdued reaction episode to episode 9 in this series.
Regarding Dinklage, it's not all uncommon for actors to not watch themselves anyway.
It makes sense when you think about it. . . they did their job, and by the time it broadcasts/is released, they've most likely moved on to different projects. If you had a report or something that you'd written up for work, turned it, etc, would you have much of an urge to go back and re-read it a few months later after you'd already finished with it and moved on to other reports?
If you thought the massive internet gak-storm of the Red Wedding was something to behold... just wait 2 more seasons.
2? At least 3, unless they start slashing things left and right. And we'll know how that ends up by then too; I'm in the camp of "everything will end up fine because magic".
Edit: My response to the hilarity of the internet's reaction to episode nine:
Spoiler:
And so they spoke, and so they spoke, those fans of Rob Stark here,
Cause now they have no hope for GoT,
Since The Rains of Castamere.
Spoiler:
I can see the Jon Snow thing happening by Episode 9 of Season 5 honestly.
I mean, Theon's story from this season is a book 5 event, and DB Wiess & Dave Benioff have said that they are planning to not actually film book 4 on it's own due to the dullness/lack of action.
All of the relevant book 4 stuff will simply be sprinkled across the book 3/5 seasons.
Plus, I do hope they cut out certain things, like the stupid little female dwarf who ends up tagging along with Tyrion... All she does is cry and whine and lust for Tyrion, then cry a lot more! Just throw Tyrion & Jorah to the fighting pits and that story arc will be improved 100%!
Spoiler:
The Theon stuff happened contemporaneously with book 3, it just wasn't brought to light until book 5. Like basically everything involving Rob from season 2: it may have happened in the timeline of book 2, but it was only mentioned in passing.
I for one am glad he's gone; his storyline's were pretty objective proof that the writers were incompetent everywhere they weren't drawing straight from ASoIaF.
Even if things are trimmed down a lot, I can't see books four and five being less than two seasons put together. A lot happens all over the place, and even if most of the Westeros storylines amount to shuffling people around to where they need to be, or killing off every competent leader that could threaten Daenerys when she arrives, I'm not sure the two combined could be done in less time than Storm of Swords.
I dunno. The episode wasn't near as bad as I thought it was going to be, judging by the reaction videos I watched before seeing it. I haven't read the books, but my girlfriend has, and I made the mistake of trying to watch the first season with her. I'd had every major plot point to the entire series as it currently stands spoiled by the end of the second episode. So, rather than smother her with a pillow, she now watches it weekly with some of her stripper friends, and I wait until the season's over and watch them all over the course of a weekend.
I honestly though that
Spoiler:
Ros getting knocked off
was more of a shocking scene than
Spoiler:
the Red Wedding.
Though I'll be the first to admit I liked her character for the wrong reasons, and wasn't overly fond of the Lawful Stupids, anyway.
Bit of a dull epsiode - watched it with a friend - we had both read the books and she thought the same.....
Good to see they got the Wolfs head in and nice bits with Lanisters - otherwise fairly dull - but then I have little interest in the Starks, Night Watch, the Wildings or the "elves".......... at least the tv show is ignroing Dorne
Dany will burn all the undead in the North anyway - IF GRRM pulls his finger and stops her being soft and pathetic.............
Agree about Ros - shame but then it did highlight how much Joffrey needs putting down.
Mr Morden wrote: but then I have little interest in the Starks, Night Watch, the Wildings or the "elves"
I strongly suspect - again, without having read the books, and having them spoiled for me, that the Night Watch (or at least the fight against the others) is the real focus of the story, and all the stuff about the Iron Throne and the War of the Five Kings is an elaborate red herring.
Hopefully not too much longer. If they don't have the big fight with the Red Viper, I'll be pissed.
Yes but they can just say he is from Dorne - don't need to go there......?
I strongly suspect - again, without having read the books, and having them spoiled for me, that the Night Watch (or at least the fight against the others) is the real focus of the story, and all the stuff about the Iron Throne and the War of the Five Kings is an elaborate red herring.
Well as you have seen from the last bit the 3rd season is definately going that way.........................but the obvious best weapon against icy undead etc is Dany's Dragons and probably the followers of the Lord of Light?
Mr Morden wrote: Well as you have seen from the last bit the 3rd season is definately going that way.........................but the obvious best weapon against icy undead etc is Dany's Dragons and probably the followers of the Lord of Light?
I have my doubts she'll ever be that effective. Awesome character, but there's way too much jostling for position in her camp. Everybody wants to bang her, and they figure the best way is being her right-hand guy.
I think the real story's going to be those obsidian blades.
That's all assuming there's even a coherent plan for this stuff and George didn't just make it up on the spot when he had to tell the producers of the show. My real suspicion is that it'll be another Dark Tower, where it's awesome for the first half and then becomes some of the worst storytelling ever for the second.
The books are already on pace for that....The first three stand as one of the greatest books I've ever read in a series. Books 4 and 5 undo all that good work and make it a series I'm barely hanging into and that's mostly because the show is so good.
Hulksmash wrote: The books are already on pace for that....The first three stand as one of the greatest books I've ever read in a series. Books 4 and 5 undo all that good work and make it a series I'm barely hanging into and that's mostly because the show is so good.
I guess we all have differant tastes. The whole series has been riveting for me.
Mr Morden wrote: Well as you have seen from the last bit the 3rd season is definately going that way.........................but the obvious best weapon against icy undead etc is Dany's Dragons and probably the followers of the Lord of Light?
I have my doubts she'll ever be that effective. Awesome character, but there's way too much jostling for position in her camp. Everybody wants to bang her, and they figure the best way is being her right-hand guy.
I think the real story's going to be those obsidian blades.
That's all assuming there's even a coherent plan for this stuff and George didn't just make it up on the spot when he had to tell the producers of the show. My real suspicion is that it'll be another Dark Tower, where it's awesome for the first half and then becomes some of the worst storytelling ever for the second.
Maybe - the most recent book
Spoiler:
certainaly had her change from budding queen to love sick pawn of her court which was annoying for me :(
I was really disapointd by the content of these books - especially given how long they took to come out and who was chosen tofeature in them / new POV characters.
re the Obsideon blades - yeah they are cool - but you also need some decent warriors to wield them and they are being killed in the ongoing civl war, although the followers of the Lord of Light seem to have the ability to fight the undead with not just magic but also by bringing back their own dead...........
I still think as its a a song of Ice and Fire - the Dragons will be pivotal
djones520 wrote: In regards to your spoiler. Keep in mind she is only 15...
I was going to say that, but glad you got to it. A lot of Dany's motivation and actions make sense if you think of her less as OMFG DRAGON QUEEN and more like "I'm a teenager and have no f'in idea what I'm doing but am trying to do my best and OMG IS THAT BIEBER???".
Mr Morden wrote: Well as you have seen from the last bit the 3rd season is definately going that way.........................but the obvious best weapon against icy undead etc is Dany's Dragons and probably the followers of the Lord of Light?
I have my doubts she'll ever be that effective. Awesome character, but there's way too much jostling for position in her camp. Everybody wants to bang her, and they figure the best way is being her right-hand guy.
I think the real story's going to be those obsidian blades.
That's all assuming there's even a coherent plan for this stuff and George didn't just make it up on the spot when he had to tell the producers of the show. My real suspicion is that it'll be another Dark Tower, where it's awesome for the first half and then becomes some of the worst storytelling ever for the second.
Maybe - the most recent book
Spoiler:
certainaly had her change from budding queen to love sick pawn of her court which was annoying for me :(
I was really disapointd by the content of these books - especially given how long they took to come out and who was chosen tofeature in them / new POV characters.
re the Obsideon blades - yeah they are cool - but you also need some decent warriors to wield them and they are being killed in the ongoing civl war, although the followers of the Lord of Light seem to have the ability to fight the undead with not just magic but also by bringing back their own dead...........
I still think as its a a song of Ice and Fire - the Dragons will be pivotal
Spoiler:
Dragonglass may be made by Dragons- and one army in the world (though not in Westeros) has plenty of warriors, and dragons to produce glass for them. Imagine Danerys astride a dragon, above an army of Unsullied with Dragonglass pikes staring down an army of white walkers headed by huge ice spiders and other unspeakable and unnameable horrors from beyond.
The Lord of Light is just to me... weird. I don't understand who they are directly opposed to, or what their angle is in interfering with Westerosi politics.
hmm fair enough - I guess I just have diffiuclty with thtansition from this:
"I know that she spent her childhood in exile, impoverished, living on dreams and schemes, running from one city to the next, always fearful, never safe, friendless but for a brother who was by all acounts half-mad...a brother who sold her maidenhood to the Dothraki for the promise of an army. I know that somewhere upon the grass, her dragons hatched, and so did she. I know she is proud. How not? What else was left her but pride? I know she is strong. How not? The Dothraki despise weakness. If Daenerys had been weak, she would have perished with Viserys. I know she is fierce. Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen are proof enough of that. She has survived assassins and conspiracies and fell sorceries, grieved for a brother and a husband and a son, trod the cities of the slavers to dust beneath her dainty sandaled feet."
to Beiber fan
Spoiler:
Dragonglass may be made by Dragons- and one army in the world (though not in Westeros) has plenty of warriors, and dragons to produce glass for them. Imagine Danerys astride a dragon, above an army of Unsullied with Dragonglass pikes staring down an army of white walkers headed by huge ice spiders and other unspeakable and unnameable horrors from beyond.
Damn now thats what GRRM should be writing towards
CthuluIsSpy wrote: How is Dany a Bieber fan? Are decent people considered to be Bieber fans now?
Okay, okay, this is my fault. I was making a joke. Dany is not a Bieber fan. We should stop saying that. She is, however, just a teenager. As hardened and world-wise as she is, she just wants puppies and hugs from hunky boys sometimes.
(on the plus side, that's likely still before Sisters of Battle get their new codex update! 
)
some people up!
