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 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there

I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).

Spoiler:

The Hound died of infection.

Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.

When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.

There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.

Spoiler:

Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?

~Tim?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The books talk about infection and malnutrition more. It doesn't claim anyone important, but it is there

I wouldn't go that far (seriously non book readers, big spoiler below).

Spoiler:

The Hound died of infection.

Also, something people need to remember is Cerseis line to Ned in the first season. It's very relevant to the show.

When you play the Game of Thrones, you either win, or you die.

There is no 'lose and run away with my tail between my legs' option in Martins world. You win, or you're pushing up daisies. This goes for the lowliest peasant to the highest noble.

Spoiler:

Wait, I thought that the Hounds fate was still up in the air?

~Tim?

Spoiler:

he's dead jim
someone else took up his helmet and is impersonating him

Spoiler:

Yup, the Meister that buried him flat out stated it was him, as he'd met him. He put the helmet on top of the grave, and someone else grabbed it and started raping and pillaging (something the Hound didn't actually do himself).

Spoiler:

Except that Sandor isn't really dead, because that Meister was speaking metaphorically...
Sandor's alive - he was the grave digger at the little monestary-type place that Brienne & Podrick pass through. Stranger is there as well, being insanely stubborn & ill tempered and causing trouble for the other monks who can't handle him!

The Lord of Light obviously still has a purpose for Sandor!

 -Loki- wrote:

Spoiler:

That's interesting - do you have the page that describes him?

Seriously, it'll make my fiancee immensely pleases, since he's her favorite character.

1057 in A Feast for Crows.

That's an interesting possibility, it went right past me the first time I read it, but now... it could be possible.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Spoiler:

That's interesting - do you have the page that describes him?

Seriously, it'll make my fiancee immensely pleases, since he's her favorite character.

1057 in A Feast for Crows.

That's an interesting possibility, it went right past me the first time I read it, but now... it could be possible.

No kidding. I don't even remember the reference to that character.

If there's one thing Martin enjoys even more than killing off your favourite character/s, it's giving those characters a fake death!

Experiment 626 wrote:
If there's one thing Martin enjoys even more than killing off your favourite character/s, it's giving those characters a fake death!

I really didn't like how this turned out...bit too much magic stuff added to GoT here. I mean, zombies? :/

 Sigvatr wrote:
I really didn't like how this turned out...bit too much magic stuff added to GoT here. I mean, zombies? :/

Not sure if serious...
The first freakin' chapter of the series highlighted how the rest of it was going to go. The whole point of the books is that magic is coming back and that it is corresponding with Winter.

Pretty serious. I'm a huge fan of the series. Magic isn't like magic, there's different kinds of how magic could work e.g. with the ice zombies. But *spoiler* becoming a half-zombie is just...weird :/

 Sigvatr wrote:
Pretty serious. I'm a huge fan of the series. Magic isn't like magic, there's different kinds of how magic could work e.g. with the ice zombies. But *spoiler* becoming a half-zombie is just...weird :/

But that's a lot of the point of the series. There used to be magic way back in the day. That's why there was dragons, white walkers, mages in the east etc so on. It went away so dragons died off, the white walkers went into hibernation, mages became charlatans, etc. Now it is coming back and all those things work again, even the 'raise dead' spells. Huge arcs of the story are dependent on those things.

I wondered if magic began to fade when Valaria exploded and killed the mages and their dragons? It seems to have been freborn with Dany's Dragons.

Unless its a Cosmic Balance thing that as the Cold magic rises so does its opposte.................

Did the Valarians worship the Lord of Light?

 pretre wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Pretty serious. I'm a huge fan of the series. Magic isn't like magic, there's different kinds of how magic could work e.g. with the ice zombies. But *spoiler* becoming a half-zombie is just...weird :/

But that's a lot of the point of the series. There used to be magic way back in the day. That's why there was dragons, white walkers, mages in the east etc so on. It went away so dragons died off, the white walkers went into hibernation, mages became charlatans, etc. Now it is coming back and all those things work again, even the 'raise dead' spells. Huge arcs of the story are dependent on those things.

Hopefully the next book will reveal 'The Others' that are actually even more bad@$$ & worse than the White Walkers! (yes, there's far, far worse things coming than just the Walkers... Like the giant Frost/Ice Spiders for one thing. )

I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?

They are.

The Others? Oh no, next thing ya know we'll have Dharma drops full of ranch dressing so fat guys can eat that to stay fat, so the producers don't have to come up with a reason why the they can't lose weight on a desert island where you have to walk everywhere.

 Necros wrote:
The Others? Oh no, next thing ya know we'll have Dharma drops full of ranch dressing so fat guys can eat that to stay fat, so the producers don't have to come up with a reason why the they can't lose weight on a desert island where you have to walk everywhere.

War's over man. War's over. You can let it go. They can't hurt you any more.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?

In the books, the White Walkers, Ice Spiders and such all collectively referenced as 'The Others'.
Martin has given some rather juicy hints about what's coming over the Wall through Sam's POV due to his love of losing himself in Castle Black's endless libraries.

Suffice it to say, the Walkers are just the tip of the perverbial iceburg.

I hate when GRRM gives us just the tip.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?

In the books, the White Walkers, Ice Spiders and such all collectively referenced as 'The Others'.
Martin has given some rather juicy hints about what's coming over the Wall through Sam's POV due to his love of losing himself in Castle Black's endless libraries.

Suffice it to say, the Walkers are just the tip of the perverbial iceburg.

Ah, so Others refers to the race / faction / whatever.

Interesting...perhaps we will see grumpkins

 pretre wrote:
I hate when GRRM gives us just the tip.

You know you love it. That's why you keep coming back.

After several hundred years, the precision of any term is questionable at best. No one living remembers what the Others were, what the Lord of Light was really like, or what the exact limits of dragons are. What they have are bones, stories that became legends, ancient text and bardsong. Any hard fact has been distorted by time, excitement, terror and sheer self serving exaggeration.

Gitzbitah wrote:
After several hundred years, the precision of any term is questionable at best. No one living remembers what the Others were, what the Lord of Light was really like, or what the exact limits of dragons are. What they have are bones, stories that became legends, ancient text and bardsong. Any hard fact has been distorted by time, excitement, terror and sheer self serving exaggeration.

LoL, true enough.

Your average Westerosi using the term (even their specialized zombie fighters, the Night's Watch) is most likely misusing it at this point in the series.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought the Others were the White Walkers? Aren't they one and the same?

The Ice Demon from the prologue of the first book is an Other; they're the things creating/leading the wights (and the term for them as an army, the way a Lannister force could be referred to as just "the Lannisters" or some such). I can't recall if the term "white walker" is used in the books at all; the book makes it pretty clear that the Others are distinct from the wights, while the show conflates the two under the term "white walker".


It's not clear if the dragons were born because magic was reentering the world, or if they're the spark that rekindled the cooling embers. It's ambiguous whether the health of dragons relied upon or supported the health of magic. Specifically the magic of man, revolving around fire and life (or its sacrifice); the magic of the REDACTED seems to have been pretty unimpeded, even if it dwindled since the First Men came to Westeros, and the darker magic tied to ice seems like it was suppressed by the power of fire magic, in the form of Old Valyria and the Targeryan dragons, since its previous loss some eight thousand years prior to the current point in the story. To go off on rambling speculation about the cosmology of the setting.

Epileptic Trees theory: Baelish is Azor Ahai reborn. Born in a seaside keep, which was probably quite smoky, to grow up and "wake dragons" (gold coins) from "stone" (accounting wizardry).

Edit: double post because 3g connection and rain.

The idea about the dragons and man's magic is an interesting comparison. It would seem to explain why the old dragons of the Targaryens kept dying at smaller and smaller sizes. As magic became less prevalent, they became weaker.

 djones520 wrote:
The idea about the dragons and man's magic is an interesting comparison. It would seem to explain why the old dragons of the Targaryens kept dying at smaller and smaller sizes. As magic became less prevalent, they became weaker.

Or magic dwindled as the physical manifestation of fire magic became stunted and weak from mistreatment by their handlers (being kept confined in the dragon pit in king's landing, and ultimately poisoned by a mad Targeryan). The direction of causation isn't clear, and I'm not about to argue for either side in particular.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I can't recall if the term "white walker" is used in the books at all; the book makes it pretty clear that the Others are distinct from the wights, while the show conflates the two under the term "white walker".

It is, mostly in the first book. IIRC, Old Nan specifically says the White Walkers, and they also specifically call the undead 'wights'. They also do in the show. Mormont called the one Jon killed near his room a wight, but after season 1 it's sort of become a bit muddied.

 -Loki- wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I can't recall if the term "white walker" is used in the books at all; the book makes it pretty clear that the Others are distinct from the wights, while the show conflates the two under the term "white walker".

It is, mostly in the first book. IIRC, Old Nan specifically says the White Walkers, and they also specifically call the undead 'wights'. They also do in the show. Mormont called the one Jon killed near his room a wight, but after season 1 it's sort of become a bit muddied.

That's what I was thinking: that it did show up as one of a myriad of names for them, for all that most of what you see is "wights" and "Others", but I couldn't remember for sure. I'm kind of assuming the show went for "white walkers" over "wights" and "Others" because of the needs of a cinematic medium; in the books you have spelling and capitalization to differentiate them, but when it's all spoken it gets a bit ambiguous, and they have enough problems making the story clear without the benefits of text as it is (if I hadn't read the books, I feel as though I would be completely lost plotwise).

Also I'm completely hammered, so please forgive any errors here because I'm having great difficulty focusing my eyes to read anything.

 tuiman wrote:

Spoiler:

I think the whole scene of the red wedding is so barbaric, even in the game of thrones setting that is generally barbaric anyway. For example if king Rob was slain during a great battle as he leads his people to war would there be such a reaction as to what happened here? Probably not.

The fact is that he and his wife, his bannermen and his own mother were brutally murdered by what were deemed to be there "allies", and most of all at a wedding. Even when jamie lanister was captured, or tyrion or the hound, those that captured them were to give them a fair trial and not outright kill them. So for this to happen would definitely come as a shock. As I said, its not the fact that Rob died, its the manner that it is carried out that makes this episode quite frightning imho.

That's a big part of the point: it's despicable and revolting. Even without the specific traditions and codes of conduct present in the setting it's a sickening act that inspires a burning desire to flay those involved and hang them with their own intestines. Such betrayal is just... blindingly enraging, even in fiction.