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 Palindrome wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Unles you actually buy that Jon Snow and Rob Stark were 15 when they ended up where they are now.

Within the context of the setting that is perfectly plausible, life is a lot shorter afterall so people are classed as adults earlier, just like we were in the medieval period, and both John and Robb gained their positions due to unexpected events.

As someone that has read the books I always felt just a little creepy when watching our favorite Mother of Dragons prance around naked, considering that when we first see her topless she would be 13.

There is a reason why they don't really mention ages all that much in the show methinks.

They do indirectly, though. We know when Robert's War was (18 years earlier in the show (14 years in the books)), making Jon and Rob 18, and Daenerys 17-18 at the start of the show. The younger characters are also given ages, each about two years higher than in the books as I recall.

It's with the older characters that the differences become more extreme: Tyrion is somewhere in his early twenties, Jaime and Cersei are 29, Eddard is 35, Cat somewhere in her early 30s; they're much younger than they appear in the show.

Well GRRM has said that he originally intended to have a two year time jump between one of the books, but decided against it because of flow, so all the characters in the books are two years younger than he actually wanted them to be as of right now.

A Feast for Crows was supposed to pick up two years afterA Storm of Swords, with the intervening story told loosely through flashbacks and exposition. He realized that wouldn't work, and so fleshed out the intervening bits into books 4 and 5, as I understand it. We're now at the point where book 4 was supposed to start, more or less (the important bit of the passage of time was the growth of the dragons and the travel time a number of characters faced).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
They do indirectly, though. We know when Robert's War was (18 years earlier in the show (14 years in the books)), making Jon and Rob 18, and Daenerys 17-18 at the start of the show. The younger characters are also given ages, each about two years higher than in the books as I recall.

It's with the older characters that the differences become more extreme: Tyrion is somewhere in his early twenties, Jaime and Cersei are 29, Eddard is 35, Cat somewhere in her early 30s; they're much younger than they appear in the show.

Well, aging everyone up a decade or two is at least a far better change than trying to make everyone look identical to the actual book characters...*shudder*

 Palindrome wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Unles you actually buy that Jon Snow and Rob Stark were 15 when they ended up where they are now.

Within the context of the setting that is perfectly plausible, life is a lot shorter afterall so people are classed as adults earlier, just like we were in the medieval period, and both John and Robb gained their positions due to unexpected events.

Your point about Jon and Robb getting thrust into their roles young is a good one, but a couple of points...

A) People didn't actually have dramatically shorter lifespans in the medieval period. On AVERAGE lifespans were shorter, but that's mostly from a high infant mortality rate and the fact that if you got seriously ill or badly injured, there wasn't all that much that could be done. But if you avoided a major accident or sickness a medieval person could live pretty close to as long as we do.
B) It's a popular misconception that people used to be considered adults much younger. Among the NOBILITY specifically, they often accorded a person certain adult rights young, to allow for orderly succession or for political marriages without waiting for the kid to actually grow up. But in most of Europe people actually physically matured later than we do today, and weren't considered adults younger (although they also didn't have our culture of protecting kids). It was pretty common for people not to hit puberty until their late teens, and the English thought it was kind of scandalous how girls as young as 18 were getting married in the American colonies, because they were short of women. Back then people didn't physically mature as fast, because they didn't generally have as rich and plentiful a diet, and they didn't have central heating, so a lot of their caloric intake was spent just staying warm for half the year. Nowadays with central heating and tons of cheap, high-calorie food it's like growing flowers in a hothouse. That's why we have kids hitting puberty much younger.

 Mannahnin wrote:

But if you avoided a major accident or sickness a medieval person could live pretty close to as long as we do.

Of course but the chances of reaching old age were significantly reduced before the advent of modern medicine, it is even less likely in an environment as unstable and violent as Westeros.

 Mannahnin wrote:


B) It's a popular misconception that people used to be considered adults much younger.

I didn't mean much younger, simply younger. Children in the medieval period were still expected the play adult roles on occasion, especially Noble Children. If Robb Stark was 12 then I would find it unlikely but as I said at 15 its plausable given the cuircumstances.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

But if you avoided a major accident or sickness a medieval person could live pretty close to as long as we do.

Of course but the chances of reaching old age were significantly reduced before the advent of modern medicine, it is even less likely in an environment as unstable and violent as Westeros.

 Mannahnin wrote:


B) It's a popular misconception that people used to be considered adults much younger.

I didn't mean much younger, simply younger. Children in the medieval period were still expected the play adult roles on occasion, especially Noble Children. If Robb Stark was 12 then I would find it unlikely but as I said at 15 its plausable given the cuircumstances.

Wasnt it only the very rich who began to see their young as a seperate stage of life? Everyone else would view their young as just mini adults and expect them to do as much as them.
Mixed with the fact that people would hit 'maturity' much younger back then and life would be much more short lived than today, it helps me cope with the age difference on the book to series.

I just watched episode nine a few hours ago, and I have to say I love how it kept the emotional tone so positive right up until the band starts playing The Rains of Castamere. That must have really sucker punched everyone who didn't know what was coming.

I have something that is spoiler free and interesting for non book reading game of thrones viewers that are upset about last week’s episode. Martin includes hundreds of pages of history and lore about Westeros within his books, and much is cut out of the series because they have to compress giant books into only 10 hours. I’m going to cut and past the story of the rat cook, and infamous man of the night’s watch that lived hundreds of years before Aegon brought his dragons to Westeros. The story is relevant because it shows what values are most important to a society.

History

According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal King a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the King, the King's own son. The Cook killed the King's son, a Prince, in revenge for a wrong the King supposedly did to him. The King was unaware of this however as he ate and praised the taste and asked for a second piece. The gods, angry because the cook had slain a guest beneath his roof, cursed the cook and transformed him into a massive rat who was doomed to be unable to eat anything but his own young.
According to the story, he is an enormous white rat and all the other rats that inhabit the Nightfort are his descendants

Song

Such is the infamy of the tale that there is a song about the Rat Cook that is still sung in the Seven Kingdoms, despite the fact that this incident was supposed to have happened hundreds of years before Aegon's landing. The song is used to represent the repercussions to those who violate the sacred laws of hospitality in the Seven Kingdoms, which is known as the Guest right.

Yep that’s right by the morality of Westeros the rat cook’s greatest sin was breaking the sacred laws of hospitality/the Guest right

People lived to ripe old ages fairly often historically speaking. Usually if you made it to the age of 12 you'd probably live about as long as we do today. You might not necessarily live well as malnutrition was very common but you'd live. Modern medicine's main contribution is the massive reduction to infant mortality and maternal death more than anything. The gradual decrease in the frequency of warfare, at least for the west, contributes more to the lack of premature death for adults.

The War thing is a definite, Europe generally had about one large war every generation or so, this pattern was only stymied with the Napoleonic Wars as Europe had almost a century of peace after their cessation. Unfortunately the pattern started up again with WW1 and likely would have continued had it not been for the Nuclear Bomb. Without MAD I'm pretty sure that Nato and the Warsaw Pact would have gone at it before the century was out.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I have something that is spoiler free and interesting for non book reading game of thrones viewers that are upset about last week’s episode. Martin includes hundreds of pages of history and lore about Westeros within his books, and much is cut out of the series because they have to compress giant books into only 10 hours. I’m going to cut and past the story of the rat cook, and infamous man of the night’s watch that lived hundreds of years before Aegon brought his dragons to Westeros. The story is relevant because it shows what values are most important to a society.

History

According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal King a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the King, the King's own son. The Cook killed the King's son, a Prince, in revenge for a wrong the King supposedly did to him. The King was unaware of this however as he ate and praised the taste and asked for a second piece. The gods, angry because the cook had slain a guest beneath his roof, cursed the cook and transformed him into a massive rat who was doomed to be unable to eat anything but his own young.
According to the story, he is an enormous white rat and all the other rats that inhabit the Nightfort are his descendants

Song

Such is the infamy of the tale that there is a song about the Rat Cook that is still sung in the Seven Kingdoms, despite the fact that this incident was supposed to have happened hundreds of years before Aegon's landing. The song is used to represent the repercussions to those who violate the sacred laws of hospitality in the Seven Kingdoms, which is known as the Guest right.

Yep that’s right by the morality of Westeros the rat cook’s greatest sin was breaking the sacred laws of hospitality/the Guest right

Wait so the books have other background and extended fluff to go with the story? Damn I did not know this. Thanks!

That story should have been a spoiler for the future!

Today's episode was a bit anti-climactic, but I guess the red wedding is a tough act to follow. Arya is advancing her story quite nicely though.

Yeah, that kind of background information isn't spoilery in the same way as current plot stuff is, but a good deal of the fun of ASoIaF is the slow fleshing out of the world, where all these in-universe references are finally expounded upon.

That said, didn't the rat cook thing just show up later in Storm of Swords? When REDACTED are at the castle at REDACTED they tell the story, and get freaked out by noises from the well?

I was totally expecting

 rubiksnoob wrote:
I was totally expecting

Spoiler:

coldhands

You mean that scene doesn't happen? Dang.

 d-usa wrote:
That story should have been a spoiler for the future!

Today's episode was a bit anti-climactic, but I guess the red wedding is a tough act to follow. Arya is advancing her story quite nicely though.

It's kinda hard to top the Red Wedding, at least until...


Putting Dany's story right at the very end was at least a decent 'feel good' ending to the season though, especially considering the mass butt-hurt that's been exploding across the intertubes all week long due to last week's events.
Meanwhile, Sam/Bran & Stanis' point of view scenes have given a super ominous "we're all pretty f***ed!" feeling to everything.

I'm sure the tween girls who watch only because of Kit Harrington are soon to take to the nets and rage about Jon Snow's ending...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Yeah, that kind of background information isn't spoilery in the same way as current plot stuff is, but a good deal of the fun of ASoIaF is the slow fleshing out of the world, where all these in-universe references are finally expounded upon.

That said, didn't the rat cook thing just show up later in Storm of Swords? When REDACTED are at the castle at REDACTED they tell the story, and get freaked out by noises from the well?

Was there the

or do we have to wait till next season for that?

 motyak wrote:
Was there the

Spoiler:

wildling attack on Castle Black

or do we have to wait till next season for that?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Spoiler:

If you thought the massive internet gak-storm of the Red Wedding was something to behold... just wait 2 more seasons.

2? At least 3, unless they start slashing things left and right. And we'll know how that ends up by then too; I'm in the camp of "everything will end up fine because magic".

Edit: My response to the hilarity of the internet's reaction to episode nine:

 Ratbarf wrote:
The War thing is a definite, Europe generally had about one large war every generation or so, this pattern was only stymied with the Napoleonic Wars as Europe had almost a century of peace after their cessation. Unfortunately the pattern started up again with WW1 and likely would have continued had it not been for the Nuclear Bomb. Without MAD I'm pretty sure that Nato and the Warsaw Pact would have gone at it before the century was out.

65 years (1815-1870) isn't really a century, even stretching it. This is the first century since... (wow, a long time ago) that there hasn't been a major war in Europe the first 15-20 years, assuming we don't feth up royally (looking at you, Hungary!).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Spoiler:

If you thought the massive internet gak-storm of the Red Wedding was something to behold... just wait 2 more seasons.

2? At least 3, unless they start slashing things left and right. And we'll know how that ends up by then too; I'm in the camp of "everything will end up fine because magic".

Edit: My response to the hilarity of the internet's reaction to episode nine:

Spoiler:

And so they spoke, and so they spoke, those fans of Rob Stark here,
Cause now they have no hope for GoT,
Since The Rains of Castamere.

They could probably catch up to the books by the end of Season 4 - there is an awful lot of filler in the later books and new POV characters that add nothing to the overarching story.

I am hoping that the TV show takes alot of this out and rewrites plenty of it.

 Mr Morden wrote:
They could probably catch up to the books by the end of Season 4 - there is an awful lot of filler in the later books and new POV characters that add nothing to the overarching story.

I am hoping that the TV show takes alot of this out and rewrites plenty of it.

Well, next season will be the later half of Storm of Swords as the main content. Personally, I'm expecting next season to cover;
(Okay, major, huge spoilers here obviously!)


In between all that there's still room for a few of the more important side stories like Little Finger's constant scheming, Cersi failing at being clever, etc...

The other main thing to keep in mind too, while Winds of Winter may not see release until 2015! both DB Wiess & Dave Benioff have been given the basic plans by Martin of where he's taking the story overall.
It pretty much a given that the series will conclude before Martin finishes the final book actually!

And that's a good thing. I think they've been very consistant with the books while making worthwhile changes and a solid trimming of fat even in the first three books. Book 4 felt like almost entirely fat and much of the entire plot lines of the book won't take up more than 45 minutes of actual screen time which is a plus. HBO is doing a bang up job and based on the show if it finishes before the final books are out I'm less than likely to buy them as GRRM has seriously annoyed me with his inability to complete his books in a reasonable time frame (bear in mind several excellent authors generally turn out 1-2 books a year with a nearly equivelant length and depth to GRRM's books).

 Hulksmash wrote:
his inability to complete his books in a reasonable time frame

10 Things George RR Martin is doing instead of Writing the next Game of Thrones book

- Writing a Game of Thrones coffee table book
- Working on a collection of Tyrion’s quips entitled The Wit and Wisdom of Tyrion Lannister
- Writing reviews of The Great Gatsby on his blog
- Editing Rogues
- Editing Wild Cards
- Having his biography recorded in comic-book form
- Recommending books to read while you wait for him to write the next Game of Thrones book
- Buying a movie theater
- Appearing at various conventions
- Watching football

How dare he?

Best meme ever.

@Pretre

Don't get me started. My bar has been set by reasonable expectations that good authors with a mapped out story line can produce novels at least on a yearly basis in the range of 500-600 pages. General two novels of this size while attending conventions, doing signing tours, and editting and contributing to short story omnibuses.

Add to that the subpar books 4 and 5 (the books that took by far the longest to write) and he's not getting sympathy from me.

Bear in mind a reasonable time frame for me would accept a novel once in 3 years based on individual abilities to complete novels and writers being artists and such. However he doesn't even meet that standard.

Personally the main reason I was excited for the GoT show on HBO is that I was likely to get a resolution for the whole story line before his next book came out based on the pacing of his writing.