Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/06/04 22:35:37
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
The night is dark and full of terrors. The fire burns them all away.
Robb realized too late that even a maggot such as himself could never escape the flames.
2013/06/04 22:38:35
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
The night is dark and full of terrors. The fire burns them all away.
Robb realized too late that even a maggot such as himself could never escape the flames.
Robb didn't declare himself king. His bannermen did. John Umber was the one I believe who started the call for it, and the other lords of the North and the Riverlands took it up.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/06/04 22:39:27
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
When Eddard was killed, House Stark fell to Robb. It was Robb's decision to make, and the wishes of his father mattered not at that point.
Even when they bowed to a king in the south, the north has always belonged to the Starks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/04 22:40:03
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
The night is dark and full of terrors. The fire burns them all away.
Robb realized too late that even a maggot such as himself could never escape the flames.
Robb didn't declare himself king. His bannermen did. John Umber was the one I believe who started the call for it, and the other lords of the North and the Riverlands took it up.
No, they counseled him. Robb could have refused them, and at any time could have backed down. He could have told them that he wasn't a true king, and that Stannis was the rightful Protector of the Realm. Instead, like the true thief he was, he declared himself a King and sought to murder all those that opposed him.
The Seven Kingdoms, from Dorne to the Wall, belong to King Stannis, First of His Name, Protector of the Realm. Eddard Stark died defending King Stannis' claim, and how did Robb Stark repay him? With treachery. Robb disregarded his father's wishes, disregarded the true King's wishes, and disregarded the safety of his people, risking everything to declare himself a King. He was little more than a thief, hoping to steal away one of the Kingdoms and slip through the war unnoticed.
When Eddard was killed, House Stark fell to Robb. It was Robb's decision to make, and the wishes of his father mattered not at that point.
Even when they bowed to a king in the south, the north has always belonged to the Starks.
Yes, it was his decision to make, and he made the wrong one. If he declared himself a King, whose to say that any tavern wench or innkeep couldn't do likewise? If he's a King, despite having no claim, despite defying the wishes of his father and his lord, I suppose I'm a king too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/04 22:41:58
2013/06/04 22:43:08
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Hordini wrote:The Starks have had a claim to the North since the time of the First Men.
That claim died when the last King in the North bowed to the Targaryens. They have no more claim to the North than the Martells have to Dorne or the Tyrells have to High Garden.
All vassals must answer to their Lord, and all Lords must answer to their King.
2013/06/04 22:52:20
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
2013/06/04 22:55:16
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Gitzbitah wrote:Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
You're just saying that because you're jealous of the highborn. Accept that you're a peasant and get on with your miserable life.
Spoiler:
Stannis is pretty much nothing more than a zombie-king now thanks to the Red Woman's black magic, and she'll will get what's coming to her when the true Son of Rholler is revealed!
The trueborn queen of Westeros is Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Khalisi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons!
2013/06/04 23:22:45
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Wait a second. Following the train wreck of logic going on here, isn't Dany the true Queen? She is King Targaryen's sole remaining heir after all and he was "illegally" removed from office.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/04 23:23:03
2013/06/04 23:40:11
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Spoiler:
Jon Snow is Ahzi Azor reborn - he gets the true Lightbringer instead of a dragon.
Still not convinced.
Spoiler:
There's half a dozen characters that match the 'reborn in salt and smoke' prophecy to be Azor Ahai, simply because, as I mentioned earlier, a theme in the show is 'prophecies are crap' (for example - Drogos son was prophecised to be 'the Stallion that mounts the world'. Didn't work out quite that way. Even Dany fit the prophecy by the end of Dance.
The part about him being a Targaryen is intriguing, but its only hanging around because of Martins complete refusal to say anything about his mother. It could very well be yet another red herring.
Spoiler:
She's the only character who fits the prophecy about Azor Ahai, and the only prophecies/visions of the cult of Rhlor to prove false are the visions that mislead Melisandre into believing Stannis is Azor Ahai, which leads to her fulfilling a number of necessary events in Westeros before winding up at the wall, where she loses interest in Stannis (apparently realizing her error) and latches onto Jon Snow (albeit in a different way).
Prophecies of other gods seem to be meaningless, and overall they don't seem to exist at all (the drowned god is more ambiguous, but the seven are decidedly silent, and the old gods are something else entirely), but Rhlor seems very much to be real, and guiding its cult (or at least, some benevolent but ruthless entity is).
2013/06/04 23:48:44
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
I wouldn't be surprised if you can somehow tie the 7 Gods to the 7 Kingdoms and get some relevance from that. Even the other gods can be shoehorned into the 7.
2013/06/04 23:52:11
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Jon Snow, and Aegon IV will be the other dragon riders, being the only other two surviving Targaryans.
Spoiler:
Jon Snow is Ahzi Azor reborn - he gets the true Lightbringer instead of a dragon.
Still not convinced.
Spoiler:
There's half a dozen characters that match the 'reborn in salt and smoke' prophecy to be Azor Ahai, simply because, as I mentioned earlier, a theme in the show is 'prophecies are crap' (for example - Drogos son was prophecised to be 'the Stallion that mounts the world'. Didn't work out quite that way. Even Dany fit the prophecy by the end of Dance.
The part about him being a Targaryen is intriguing, but its only hanging around because of Martins complete refusal to say anything about his mother. It could very well be yet another red herring.
Spoiler:
She's the only character who fits the prophecy about Azor Ahai, and the only prophecies/visions of the cult of Rhlor to prove false are the visions that mislead Melisandre into believing Stannis is Azor Ahai, which leads to her fulfilling a number of necessary events in Westeros before winding up at the wall, where she loses interest in Stannis (apparently realizing her error) and latches onto Jon Snow (albeit in a different way).
Prophecies of other gods seem to be meaningless, and overall they don't seem to exist at all (the drowned god is more ambiguous, but the seven are decidedly silent, and the old gods are something else entirely), but Rhlor seems very much to be real, and guiding its cult (or at least, some benevolent but ruthless entity is).
Spoiler:
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/04 23:54:42
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/06/04 23:59:15
Subject: Re:Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Hordini wrote: Question with a spoiler from A Dance with Dragons:
Spoiler:
Do you think Melissandre is going to bring Jon back in the next book?
Spoiler:
I don't think he will die. Not that Martin has any qualms about killing characters off, but I just feel like John's story has too much potential left in it to end like that. Other stories (like the whole rebellion thing) were kind of petering out, whereas I don't believe his was. So yeah either he won't die in the end (he'll just be in a coma and then recover) or she'll do her thing. Or Martin will say 'feth it' and we'll focus even more on Dany...something I don't really want.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/05 00:03:19
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2013/06/05 00:03:50
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/05 00:06:20
2013/06/05 00:25:24
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
IIRC, the true Lightbringer was a sword forged by the Champion of Light in a raging furnace and then quenched in the blood of his sacrificed wife. (been a bit since I last read 'A Clash of Kings'...)
Spoiler:
Hence why Jon is more likely to be Ahzi Azor as he's made the relevant sacrifice when he lets Yggrit die because his duty & loyalty is to the Watch.
Dany on the other hand never really 'sacrificed' Drogo in the true sense of it, but rather, she simply let him go after Miri Maz Dhur left him as a comatose zombie.
2013/06/05 00:30:58
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
2013/06/05 00:33:08
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Gitzbitah wrote:Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
You're just saying that because you're jealous of the highborn. Accept that you're a peasant and get on with your miserable life.
At this rate, only the peasants will survive!
Also note- Daenerys is not a queen in Westeros... yet. Don't worry TV goers, it isn't a spoiler. Merely conjecture.
That being said, Dragons are the unstoppable force in Martin's world- and she has them all.
Seriously though, if someone told me I was next in line for any throne in Westeros, I would take the black and refuse any offers of leadership. Tend to the ravens, or rule for the average life expectancy of 6 months. A rule punctuated by your inherited advisors screwing you over, your retainers planning intricate assassinations or outright rebellion, and also having the Scylla and Charybdis of crushing national debt and unknown supernatural forces bearing down on you.
I'd have a better shot as king of Moria. At least there was only one Balrog in the depths there, not an incredibly lengthy winter and a zombie apocalypse.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
2013/06/05 00:33:59
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
IIRC, the true Lightbringer was a sword forged by the Champion of Light in a raging furnace and then quenched in the blood of his sacrificed wife. (been a bit since I last read 'A Clash of Kings'...)
Spoiler:
Hence why Jon is more likely to be Ahzi Azor as he's made the relevant sacrifice when he lets Yggrit die because his duty & loyalty is to the Watch.
Dany on the other hand never really 'sacrificed' Drogo in the true sense of it, but rather, she simply let him go after Miri Maz Dhur left him as a comatose zombie.
Spoiler:
The raging furnace though? Dany was the one who walked into a giant funeral pyre, of her dead husband, and then walked out with three Dragons. Jon has done nothing of the like.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/06/05 00:47:32
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
But I could have sworn there is a 'based on' or something at the end of the episode?
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2013/06/05 00:49:22
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
Dany is Azor. The Lightbringer is her dragons. She has three of them, and like the Targaryans of old she'll need three riders, all of whom will be Targaryans.
The clues about Jon being a Targaryan are everywhere. Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affair. She wasn't abducted. We know it was clear that Rhaegar loved her, when he named her the whatever at the tournament, over his own wife. From what I read, Lyanna and Robert were an arranged deal. While Robert obviously loved her, the affection wasn't returned, it's why she fled with Rhaegar. The "Promise me Ned." was Lyanna forcing Ned to raise Jon as his own, to protect him from Robert. By the time he was born, what had happened to Rhaegar's other children was already known. Robert wrath about all things Targaryen was also known, and where he to find out the truth about Jon, he'd probably order his death. It's why Ned went to such lengths to not answer any questions about who Jon's mother was. Lies can be unravelled all to easily. Martin kept dropping clues here and there throughout the books, not openly giving the answer, but making it so the astute readers could connect the dots. Jon has the blood of two kings in him, the Targaryen's, and the Starks (Kings of the North). That's whats caught Melisandre's eye, and why she's pretty much ditched Stannis now.
This is my reasoning exactly. This is also the first time I've seen this coming from someone else: every time I argue this people just ignore me.
Lightbringer sounds like it's an actual sword though: either a lost relic or something that will be made again. But who knows; it works just as well as a metaphor.
IIRC, the true Lightbringer was a sword forged by the Champion of Light in a raging furnace and then quenched in the blood of his sacrificed wife. (been a bit since I last read 'A Clash of Kings'...)
Spoiler:
Hence why Jon is more likely to be Ahzi Azor as he's made the relevant sacrifice when he lets Yggrit die because his duty & loyalty is to the Watch.
Dany on the other hand never really 'sacrificed' Drogo in the true sense of it, but rather, she simply let him go after Miri Maz Dhur left him as a comatose zombie.
Spoiler:
The original lightbringer was a sword, according to the legend. It might be laying around somewhere, to be taken up by Azor Ahai, or it might have to be forged again. Or it could be a metaphor for the dragons, whose birth marked the rebirth of magic in the world, who symbolize fire and by extension Rhlor.
No matter the case, forging Lightbringer wasn't what made Azor Ahai Azor Ahai, it was just a thing he did (wait, was he the one who did it, or was it forged for him? I'm drawing a blank on that detail). Daenerys is the only character to fit the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn, however; Jon is by all indications just one of the two other prophesied figures, who are presumably the riders of the other two dragons.
2013/06/05 00:49:47
Subject: Game of thrones season 3 episode 9!? [Spoilers]
motyak wrote: I really don't get why people are angry at HBO...they didn't decide who dies.
Because a lot of people don't realize there are books.
One comment on twitter really spelled that out - 'What producer cleared this episode to air?'. The general public doesn't know there are books and that they are being followed.
But I could have sworn there is a 'based on' or something at the end of the episode?
I think it's at the end of the opening credits. Do you really expect people who don't read books to read credits though?
Gitzbitah wrote: Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
Honestly I've always taken this as one of the themes of the series. Just like 'prophecies are a lie' the series espouses a cynical view of Feudalism opposed to the ideal view of many typical fantasy universes. There is no 'true' king in Westeros. Just a mountain of men and women playing a blood game to see who gets to sit in the fancy chair.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/05 00:52:28
Gitzbitah wrote: Westeros is full of kings, princes, queens and those who have murdered them.
The title, and the idea of being a 'true' king, is about as worthless as King Joffrey.
Honestly I've always taken this as one of the themes of the series. Just like 'prophecies are a lie' the series espouses a cynical view of Feudalism opposed to the ideal view of many typical fantasy universes. There is no 'true' king in Westeros. Just a mountain of men and women playing a blood game to see who gets to sit in the fancy chair.
Have you read the books, or just watched GoT? Because the first 2-3 books could easily be read as realpolitik parables, but about halfway through book 3 it starts getting more mystical, and "prophecies are a lie" goes right out the window, just as a great deal of the moral ambiguity that reigns in the early books does.
Thinking about it, the series could be seen as "epic good vs evil done realistically," which is to say the good guys are often sociopaths, and the villains have genuinely good intentions, and they're ultimately differentiated by who's right and who's a bumbling lunatic. Then there's the backdrop of squalor and brutality and the ramshackle, fragile way the ruling class is stitched together... Quite an unrivaled work, so far.
