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Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 20:19:47


Post by: Agamemnon2


http://www.beastsofwar.com/games-workshop/announcement/

Looks like GW has had its fill of Beasts of War scooping their releases, and matters have escalated to the point where BoW has to separate itself from Wayland Games just so both of them can actually continue existing. This leaves an incredibly bad taste in my mouth, I have to say.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 20:22:16


Post by: Kirasu


GW hates people buying their product so they make it incredibly difficult for stores to sell it, to promote it and to "hype" it via rumors they hear.

Not sure what the long term "strategy" is.. other than a false belief that we'll buy everything direct. Sucks for BoW as they are a pretty good site.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 20:24:15


Post by: Imposter101


Beasts of War wrote:Forgive the video guys, I was actually pretty nervous :(

We’ll start with the Short Story…

Over the past two and a bit years, Beasts of War have received a number of missives from Games Workshop’s legal team (Even one including a request to remove every video containing a GW product).

The difficulty with legal letters, is they cost us a lot of money every time we get one, you could easily pay five hundred to a thousand pounds just to get an appropriate solicitor to read it and give you some advice on how to respond! So they really do take their toll on a small business.

In June of this year, GW published a new set of trade terms that their trade customers must adhere too, in these terms was a clause that effectively meant that, Wayland Games would have been punished for any advance reporting of any GW release by Beasts of War Ltd (Article 9.4) despite Wayland Games not providing any such information to Beasts of War, and despite both companies being separate.

When we asked GW about how this would affect fair use, it was pointed out to us that ‘Fair Use’ did not apply, as this was a contractual matter, and not a copyright matter. This unfortunately means that potentially any demand could be placed upon us by Games Workshop and be considered a contractual matter, and based on the previous demands we have received, we feel that the risks are too great.

As a result we feel there is no option but to abide by terms set out by GW.

From today (Friday 4th October 2013) Beasts of War and Wayland Games are ending the partnership we have worked very hard to create. This is disappointing for us all and we would like to thank the hard working team at Wayland Games for their support, the access to studio space and building the amazing Tabletop Nation venue where we have participated in some memorable events, many of which have been the highlight of our time spent in Essex. And we look forward to attending others in the future!

Myself (Warren), Lloyd and Justin will now be working exclusively for Beasts of War alongside Ben and Sam, as an entirely independent media organisation.

We do this as we feel that Beasts of War and it’s amazing community deserve to have the best opportunity to not only exist, but to thrive.

Despite continued growth even while not being in a position to report on GW products it seems completely alien to us to run Beasts of War and not be able to report on the most dominant game and company in the industry.

We respect Games Workshop, and are using this opportunity to once again reach out to them and say… We do Beasts of War, because we love this hobby and this industry, including your part in it, and at all times we try to treat others fairly and we hope you will do the same.

We will be moving studios over the next few days, we will also be opening a permanent studio space in Nottingham and have quite a long list of cool new things in the pipeline to discuss (and deliver!) with you guys over the coming weeks including of course a new range of content and shows dedicated to 40K etc.

We are excited about this, we want to see the project and community grow and grow, but we’ll be honest with you guys, we are worried and a little afraid for what the future will hold for us all, and so more now than ever, we could be doing with your support!

For those who are interested, here is the Long Story…

Beasts of War was created by myself (Warren) and my brother Lloyd and our hope for the project was always to create an independent and vibrant portal where we and other content creators could report on the thriving Tabletop Gaming Industry. Over these last 5 years BoW has grown from very small beginnings, to provide rolling news and content seven days a week, viewed by hundreds of thousands of gamers every month.

Following in the footsteps of fantastic outlets such as IGN, Gamespot, Kotaku and Engadget we felt that gamers deserved a Tabletop Gaming site that gave them an independent view on the coolest goings on in the industry.

In our early days we had attempted to reach out to Games Workshop on a number of occasions, to try and establish some form of working relationship or even just an understanding with them, as that would allow us time to work on things like our themed weeks where we broadcast content for an entire week picking through a major release for Warhammer 40K or Fantasy Battles.

On 1st September 2011 it looks like we got our answer… (Take everything down!)

We received a communication from Games Workshop, including these requests:

1) To remove all of their images from Beasts of War reviews and articles
2) Remove all of their logos
3) Remove every video containing a Games Workshop product within it.

We were given 28 Days to comply. We wrote back asking for clarification on the points they raised and never recieved a reply…

On 14th October 2011… (New Necrons Have Landed!)

Blurry images of possible new Necrons landed with us. What we were looking at looked awesome and we took the decision to publish them and add our thoughts on what we were seeing. Three days later (17th October 2011), we received a letter from Games Workshop which stated that by publishing these images we had:

Breached our rights under the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988. Specifically, you are in breach of Sections 16 and 20 of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 which give Games Workshop Limited, as the owner of the copyright in these images, the exclusive right to communicate the images to the public.

Along with the following demands:

1) Remove from your website all images which infringe Games Workshop Limited’s intellectual property rights;

2) Confirm where you obtained these images from including the name of any individual concerned;

On 3rd May 2012… (Is a Sketch really a Crime?)

This time we found ourselves with some sketches of possible new flyers, we went on to show and discuss the sketches during one of our Turn 8 Live Shows! (and a great show it was too!) And then we got a letter (Dated 17th May 2012) which contained the following:

As the copyright owner, we are entitled to seek damages and other relief from you. The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 also lists a number of CRIMINAL offences, in particular in relation to communication of works to the public, in the course of a business in the knowledge that you are infringing copyright in those works.

It went on to say…

As this is the second such infringement of our copyright we are minded to pursue further legal action against you (both civil and criminal). Unless you remove all the infringing material from your website, and confirm to us the identity of the person who gave you this information within 7 days of today’s date, then we will pursue these actions.

On June 11th 2012… (Two Sticks are better than One!)

We were also contacted by Quad/Winkowski Ltd (from Poland) who are a subsidiary of Quad Graphics Inc. (a publicly traded US Company) and they had this to say…

According to GW, illegally obtained images of not-yet-published property belonging to GW, was subsequently published by Beasts of War. We are currently working with the proper authorities to investigate whether said unauthorized images were obtained and subsequently released by one or more Q/W employees. Irrespective of the outcome of said investigation, we’d like to join GW in requesting Beasts of War to cease and desist in the future from publishing similar images, photos, sketches, drawings and the like being the property of GW. Failure to do so may subject Beasts of War and its respective directors and officers to both civil and criminal actions.

Please feel free to contact me should you have any questions in regards to the matter above.

We did decide to contact them and asked…

Thank you for this email, could you confirm for me just exactly what ‘crime’ (as in criminal activity) you (and Games Workshop PLC) are accusing Beasts of War of?

And we got the following response…

In response I cannot speak for GW. I am not employed by GW, nor was I privy to their conversations with your firm (if one or more took place), and or the content of correspondence between GW and Beasts of War

They went on to say…

Writing on behalf of Q/W, in support of our customer GW, no where in the mail below did I accuse BoW of a crime or criminal activity.

It then continued…

However, I’ll reiterate that going forward BoW has been put on official notice that the future publication of unauthorized, and or illegally obtained images, photos, sketches, drawings and the like, being the copyrighted intellectual property of GW, could subject your firm, and or one or more BoW directors or employees involved in future decisions to publish said illegally obtained images, photos, sketches, drawings and the like to civil, and or criminal proceedings.

So no pics and no sketches, that’s disappointing because we want to talk about the products as we feel that new products from THE dominant company within our industry are definitely newsworthy…

On 26th June 2012 … (All our YouTube are belong to us!!!)

On this day Games Workshop contacted us to state…

I have had yet another report of your site posting Games Workshop images, text and video, at this page:

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/feast-eyes-40ks-latest-incarnation/

We haven’t given you permission to post our images, text or video. Please remove them from your site.

We had embedded a YouTube video on Beasts of War from Games Workshops own channel on YouTube, we believe in accordance with section 8 of the YouTube terms of service…

That doesn’t leave much to talk about does it?

So no pictures, no sketches and (we hope they are mistaken) we can’t even embed their own promotional videos from YouTube.

Well, at least we can write articles about cool new releases that are coming up…

And we did…

August 8th 2012 (9:12 am – Yes the time is important here)

We published a piece discussing what we believed would be the new and highly anticipated 40K starter set Dark Vengeance.

No images, no sketches, not even a video! But a great story about what was looking like a great product…

August 8th 2012 (14:30pm – 5 Hours Later)

We saw via the forums that retailers had received a warning from Games Workshop stating:

If Games Workshop has evidence that a retailer:
• disseminated information pertaining to new release products prior to the Advance Order date
• made new release products available to order prior to the Advance Order date
• sold new release products to an end user customer prior to the Global Release date

Games Workshop would then, for a period of 6 months, not ship the infringing account new release product until 30 days have passed from the Global Release date.

And if a Trade Account breaches these rules on more than one occasion their account will be permanently closed.

Independant Stores are not Involved

Now’s a good time to say that we have never acted upon any upcoming product information or rumors from any retailer… ever… not for Games Workshop or for any other company for that matter.

To be fair there is little point as release information is always spread across the blogs and forums, long before any retailer gets their hands on it.

You might wonder though why this statement from Games Workshop would have any effect.

Wayland Games and Beasts of War partner up!

Well… you may remember that in December of 2011 we announced that we would be partnering much more closely with Wayland Games, with a view that Beasts of War would become an independent subsidiary of Tabletop Nation. Our hope was together we could create some really cool stuff for the hobby.

In June it’s feasibility ended…

June 2013 Games Workshop released their new trade terms which contain this:

9.4 If any Affiliates of the Trade Account disseminate or otherwise make available to the public any information in respect of new release Products prior to any Advance Order Date in respect of such Products, then, for a period of 6 months, GW shall not despatch new release Products to that Trade Account until 30 days following the Global Release Date for such Products.

When we asked for clarification we were instructed that Affiliate covered:

Companies belonging to the same group of companies, and any individuals affiliated by way of shared ownership, control, management or key employees.

Unfortunately that basically described any possible relationship Beasts of War Ltd could have with Wayland Games Ltd.

Fair Use

We did go on to ask Games Workshop about the principles of Fair Use and they told us:

that the principle of Fair Use, did not apply as this was a contractual matter, rather than a matter of copyright law.

And that as they say… is that!

We have had to assume this applies to our coverage, any speculation we might make, and the thoughts and posts of our community in their comments and forum posts. And because of past notifications from Games Workshop on other aspects of reporting on their products, it was very hard for us to risk reporting on anything (Including Themed Weeks etc) as it was no longer about what the law said was ok, it was about, how Games Workshop would choose to interpret their own trade terms.

If we continue as we are, it places both companies and the jobs they provide at too great a risk. Because with each new set of Trade Terms, more and more conditions could be added, to increase this pressure.

Where to now?

Myself and the small team here at Beasts of War care very much about this community, this project and this industry. And collectively we have all sacrificed quite a lot to see it through to this point.

Independance is something many of us talk about, and I’m not sure if anybody fully understands what shape independance takes.

But we cannot operate in an environment, where the dominant company in the industry deliberately engineers legal and contractual scenarios, specifically designed to impinge on independent coverage of their products and practices.

The easy option would have been to walk away…

But I suppose Beasts of War has never been about the easy option.

So today we are announcing that Beasts of War Ltd and Wayland Games Ltd are ending their partnership, and Beasts of War will operate entirely independently. This is disappointing for us all and we would like to thank the hard working team at Wayland Games for their support, the access to studio space and building the amazing Tabletop Nation venue where we have participated in some memorable events, many of which have been the highlight of our time spent in Essex. And we look forward to attending others in the future!

We believe that this is our only option to fulfil the potential of this project and its community.

Again, we respect Games Workshop, and this statement is a difficult one to make, as it is not our intention to antagonise them, but we really have been left with no choice but to take this action, and state as clearly and as honestly as we can to the community why we are. We would hope that Games Workshop will see this for what it is, our attempt to abide by the rules they are setting out, but clearly we would hope to have some dialogue with them over the coming weeks, to reach a more clear understanding of how independent media can operate within our industry without fear of needless or unfounded legal threats.

Next Steps!

We have the full support of our presenting team and amazing article writers and look forward to continuing creating great content with them and some other new faces joining us.

We have had amazing gestures of support from many companies within our industry and thank them deeply for their ongoing commitment!

Myself, Lloyd, and Justin, will be dedicating ourselves full time to Beasts of War and are excited by the possibilities that extra time and resource allows us to pursue.

And now we hope we can secure your support, our valued community, as we make this difficult but necessary transition.

And of course I have to mention that we are the luckiest men alive, to have the support of the good ladies and kids that love us, and put up with so much to let us pursue this fool’s errand!

Good things coming (Nottingham Studio!)

Over the coming days and weeks we will be announcing a number of exciting developments and ramping up the speed of development. (One big bonus of all this is myself and Lloyd will be able to join Justin and dedicate ourselves full time to this project, and there is a long list of things we’d like to do).

A fantastic announcement we can make right away is thanks to our partners in the industry we have secured a permanent studio space in Nottingham taking us even deeper into the heart of the action. Our intention is to split filming between Nottingham, Ireland (we’re going home to our families!) and other ‘on location’ places including possibly the US.

How you can help

It kind of goes without saying that this is going to be another huge challenge for us, and more than at any time in our existence we will be relying on the support of our community and industry partners.

If you would like to help, please consider one of the following avenues:

1) Just join the site and be a great community member, because we and the rest of the community really appreciate that!

2) Join the growing team of amazing article writers who are adding so much cool content to our lives!

3) Buy a monthly or one of our new annual Backstage Passes for yourself (You need to be logged in to do this!)

4) Donate one or more annual Backstage Passes (Just a single one off fee, not recurring) that we can distribute to those who can’t afford one today (we get emails from time to time from kids and adults who just don’t have the money to spare, so this is a way for you to help us and someone else in a sticky patch too).

If you are finding it tough out there these days and would like into Backstage, write to us at community@beastsofwar.com


5) If you are a legal eagle and would be willing to help protect us going forward please get in touch by contacting warren@beastsofwar.com


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 20:25:11


Post by: Valkyrie


So GW saw BoWs videos with their products in them and decided that this was a no-go? For what reason?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 20:33:07


Post by: Agamemnon2


GW's publicity-control machinery feels more and more shrill and demented, when even a fansite getting a few day's or a week's advance scoop on an official announcement is a cause for immediate legal action. One can't escape the feeling that the change in their trade agreements, too, arose just as a silver bullet against this one particular monster they sought to destroy.

It might be legal, but so's showing up at an old folks' home dressed as Death.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 20:51:25


Post by: PsychoticStorm


I am really fed up with them, I have stopped been their customer years ago, but their paranoia and money grabbing Technics of the last years have become really outrageous.

They have become the single worst thing the Wargaming industry has ever faced.

I really hope BoW decision to do this is justified, because I am starting to feel, covering the "giant" of the industry does not really worth it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 20:52:14


Post by: Azreal13


It just seems so counter intuitive it makes my head hurt!

I would love an explanation (from a proper GW authority, stand down you lot and put your white chargers back in the stable!) as to the reasoning behind these actions.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:01:34


Post by: Zweischneid


 PsychoticStorm wrote:


I really hope BoW decision to do this is justified, because I am starting to feel, covering the "giant" of the industry does not really worth it.


For a website-based / youtube-based business in this niche, I believe it is.

I know my little blog isn't anything close to sites like Beasts of War, but from my personal experience, the differences in traffic from even the most banal of 40K-articles ("Look, a 1500-points Grey Knights list") compared to the most involved non-GW article (I believe the highest non-GW traffic I ever got was from an Interview with Adam Poots of KD) is just insane.

More popular 40K-heavy blogs like 3++ easily beat Beasts of War in Traffic these days according to Alexa, and with obviously a fraction of the costs as far as equipment, salaries, etc.. go.

3++ at Alexa-rank in traffic ; http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/3plusplus.net#trafficstats

BoW at Alexa: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/beastsofwar.com#trafficstats


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:01:57


Post by: Compel


The only halfway sane explanation I have heard of, or can work out.

Is that perhaps when GW were bidding for the Hobbit license, they were given additional terms that instructed the company that they must pursue 'all legal means' (or some other over zealous phrase), to stop any news leaks coming out.

That's the only somewhat fair to GW possible explanation I can think of.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:04:32


Post by: Necros


I think they should just dump all GW stuff. They might be the biggest, but really aren't the best anymore. There's so many other great companies out there that actually appreciate exposure and want to get the word out about their products in a professional manner. GW clearly doesn't.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:04:43


Post by: wufai


I'm guessing 40K radio is feeling the same pain BOW went through these past few months with their podcast talking about the new SM codex. Seems to fit the same bill. 40K radio is a seperate entity affiliate with Battlefoam, Battlefoam has a store section selling GW products. Therefore, even if the leak codex is from a third party source, Battlefoam will definitely get a letter from GW.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:06:24


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Well at least GW is consistent

they REALLY don't want anybody to know what they sell

maybe they should sell everything in plain brown wrappers, and you'd just have to take a lucky dip at a particular price point


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:06:30


Post by: GBL


Any other company would be falling over itself to get this kind of media attention. I don't think that there is much more to say than this is stupid.

The biggest problem I have, is that everything BoW supplied could be considered promotional material (which, generally has the expectation it could be picked up and regurgitated by another outlet, creating more PR reach for your dollar) why do they need to cry copyright over a catalog?



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:09:00


Post by: TheSecretSquig


I buy their paints and that's it. 4 years ago I vowed not to buy another GW model and invest my hard earned ££££ elsewhere. And I did: DUST Tactics, Super Dungeon Explore, Sedition Wars, Firestorm Aramada, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, Flames of War and having far more enjoyment that I did when purely focusing on GW.

If you're fed up with GW's attitude and business, then take your business elsewhere. Best protest move you can do.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:09:13


Post by: Zweischneid


wufai wrote:
I'm guessing 40K radio is feeling the same pain BOW went through these past few months with their podcast talking about the new SM codex. Seems to fit the same bill. 40K radio is a seperate entity affiliate with Battlefoam, Battlefoam has a store section selling GW products. Therefore, even if the leak codex is from a third party source, Battlefoam will definitely get a letter from GW.


Don't think so. Battlefoam isn't actually selling products from Games Workshop. Also note how they use terms like "GW" and "40K" on their website, but never "Games Workshop" or "Warhammer 40.000".

Contrast that to the stuff they freely advertise as "official" bags for Privateer Press, Flames of War, etc.. .


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:14:20


Post by: PalmerC


I am pretty naive to the legal issues here but my interpretation is they are splitting from Wayland games so there is no contractual obligations via selling miniatures that can be imposed on Wayland games from their association with BOW. Not sure if that is exactly correct. But my real question is if BOW just reports news about wargaming and shows a GW logo is this really illegal? The news publishes information everyday and shows company logos etc and I thought it was just freedom of speech? I guess I could see a potential case of leaking info on new products but even that I would assume would fall under similar freedom of speech laws. Now I live in Canada but I am from the US and this situation is in Britain (and the www) so I admit I am not sure of local legalities at play.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:14:21


Post by: Mick A


GW honestly want people to believe they are the only figure and game company out there and therefore they do not want their products shown on any site that disproves this...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:17:32


Post by: filbert


PalmerC wrote:
I am pretty naive to the legal issues here but my interpretation is they are splitting from Wayland games so there is no contractual obligations via selling miniatures that can be imposed on Wayland games from their association with BOW. Not sure if that is exactly correct. But my real question is if BOW just reports news about wargaming and shows a GW logo is this really illegal? The news publishes information everyday and shows company logos etc and I thought it was just freedom of speech? I guess I could see a potential case of leaking info on new products but even that I would assume would fall under similar freedom of speech laws. Now I live in Canada but I am from the US and this situation is in Britain (and the www) so I admit I am not sure of local legalities at play.



Quite possibly, however BOW (or any small company for that matter), simply do not have the funds or legal recourse to fight their corner, even if they think they are right. GW are doing the same thing they did in the Chapterhouse debacle; throwing their legal weight around and hoping that a legalese letter will dissuade anyone from speaking out. And most of the time it works - people accept their lot and do what Gw want because they are scared of legal bills. It sucks that GW can abuse their power in this way, but that is the system as it stands.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:17:34


Post by: Zweischneid


PalmerC wrote:
I am pretty naive to the legal issues here but my interpretation is they are splitting from Wayland games so there is no contractual obligations via selling miniatures that can be imposed on Wayland games from their association with BOW. Not sure if that is exactly correct. But my real question is if BOW just reports news about wargaming and shows a GW logo is this really illegal? The news publishes information everyday and shows company logos etc and I thought it was just freedom of speech? I guess I could see a potential case of leaking info on new products but even that I would assume would fall under similar freedom of speech laws. Now I live in Canada but I am from the US and this situation is in Britain (and the www) so I admit I am not sure of local legalities at play.


Well, that is where the "contractual" issue comes in.

GW cannot stop a "news" outlet from using logos and images within "fair use" (though they can try and might win for having more finance).

But nobody is forcing GW either to ship stuff to Wayland Games.

If Wayland Games wants to keep their trade license for Games Workshop products, they need to play by the rules set down in the terms of that contract (no matter how bizarre they may be), not by the terms of journalistic freedom.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:21:29


Post by: PalmerC


 Zweischneid wrote:
PalmerC wrote:
I am pretty naive to the legal issues here but my interpretation is they are splitting from Wayland games so there is no contractual obligations via selling miniatures that can be imposed on Wayland games from their association with BOW. Not sure if that is exactly correct. But my real question is if BOW just reports news about wargaming and shows a GW logo is this really illegal? The news publishes information everyday and shows company logos etc and I thought it was just freedom of speech? I guess I could see a potential case of leaking info on new products but even that I would assume would fall under similar freedom of speech laws. Now I live in Canada but I am from the US and this situation is in Britain (and the www) so I admit I am not sure of local legalities at play.


Well, that is where the "contractual" issue comes in.

GW cannot stop a "news" outlet from using logos and images within "fair use" (though they can try and might win for having more finance).

But nobody is forcing GW either to ship stuff to Wayland Games.

If Wayland Games wants to keep their trade license for Games Workshop products, they need to play by the rules set down in the terms of that contract, not by the terms of journalistic freedom.



Thanks that makes sense and so by this split it should allow BOW the freedom to report news etc strictly within the guidlines of fair use? In this context it seems like it almost makes sense that they split if BOW's mandate is to publish content it sort of removes the conflicts of interest that could be percieved in selling products they are reporting on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Zweischneid wrote:
PalmerC wrote:
I am pretty naive to the legal issues here but my interpretation is they are splitting from Wayland games so there is no contractual obligations via selling miniatures that can be imposed on Wayland games from their association with BOW. Not sure if that is exactly correct. But my real question is if BOW just reports news about wargaming and shows a GW logo is this really illegal? The news publishes information everyday and shows company logos etc and I thought it was just freedom of speech? I guess I could see a potential case of leaking info on new products but even that I would assume would fall under similar freedom of speech laws. Now I live in Canada but I am from the US and this situation is in Britain (and the www) so I admit I am not sure of local legalities at play.


Well, that is where the "contractual" issue comes in.

GW cannot stop a "news" outlet from using logos and images within "fair use" (though they can try and might win for having more finance).

But nobody is forcing GW either to ship stuff to Wayland Games.

If Wayland Games wants to keep their trade license for Games Workshop products, they need to play by the rules set down in the terms of that contract (no matter how bizarre they may be), not by the terms of journalistic freedom.


Yes I can see thats a harsh reality for small businesses.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:28:01


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Essentially GW wishes all the coverage about them to pass through them and nobody else, they want absolute control on how they might get depicted and they do not want their products showcased among somebody else.

The pig picture so frequently show here must be depicted as something worth paying money for, the systems must be depicted as the best thing one can hope to game with and the fluff the best it was ever written.

They do not want competition simple as that and somehow in their minds if they manage to have all other sites, blogs, news outlets that may not show them in the brightest of all colours or they will definitely not show them among other products die in the next minute it will all be better for them.



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 21:49:03


Post by: Splod


Just another situation of them GW using the might of their legal budget to stomp out any competition. Even in cases where GW are in the wrong, the little guy can't afford to fight back and so has to cave to their demands.

Bit of a dog act really.

What I don't understand is that the competition in this case is offering GW free advertising?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:14:30


Post by: MadCowCrazy


Another nail in the coffin for GW. I'm glad I send all of my money to china nowdays instead of GW.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:33:15


Post by: Azreal13


 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for GW. I'm glad I send all of my money to china nowdays instead of GW.


Dude, while I totally sympathise with your perspective, that's perhaps not the sort of thing to be admitting in open forum, especially when Dakka policy is (rightly) so strict on that sort of thing.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:37:22


Post by: MadCowCrazy


 azreal13 wrote:
 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for GW. I'm glad I send all of my money to china nowdays instead of GW.


Dude, while I totally sympathise with your perspective, that's perhaps not the sort of thing to be admitting in open forum, especially when Dakka policy is (rightly) so strict on that sort of thing.



So buying PVC anime girl models is illegal here on Dakka?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:39:32


Post by: nkelsch


You take the King's coin, you do the King's bidding.

If you want a trade partner account with GW, you do what they say or lose it. If your livelihood is based on an unreasonable or abusive trade account, then you need to re-evaluate your line of business.

If GW hates you... then why bother covering/selling them? Move on to other stuff? If they are your sole source of revenue or your core business... whoops? Diversify next time.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:44:47


Post by: Kanluwen


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Essentially GW wishes all the coverage about them to pass through them and nobody else, they want absolute control on how they might get depicted and they do not want their products showcased among somebody else.

The pig picture so frequently show here must be depicted as something worth paying money for, the systems must be depicted as the best thing one can hope to game with and the fluff the best it was ever written.

They do not want competition simple as that and somehow in their minds if they manage to have all other sites, blogs, news outlets that may not show them in the brightest of all colours or they will definitely not show them among other products die in the next minute it will all be better for them.


That's not true. Look at what the majority of these "issues" were about--things being leaked. There is a very big difference between "You can't talk about our stuff!" and "Stop revealing releases before we do".


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:48:13


Post by: PurpleSquig


So buying PVC anime girl models is illegal here on Dakka?


Haha, I thought that was Japan...

On topic, us mere mortals can only stare in wonder at GW's bizarre actions.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:49:13


Post by: Azreal13


 MadCowCrazy wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for GW. I'm glad I send all of my money to china nowdays instead of GW.


Dude, while I totally sympathise with your perspective, that's perhaps not the sort of thing to be admitting in open forum, especially when Dakka policy is (rightly) so strict on that sort of thing.



So buying PVC anime girl models is illegal here on Dakka?


Might be a language barrier thing, might be my own prejudices, but if that's what you were implying, you weren't clear enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Essentially GW wishes all the coverage about them to pass through them and nobody else, they want absolute control on how they might get depicted and they do not want their products showcased among somebody else.

The pig picture so frequently show here must be depicted as something worth paying money for, the systems must be depicted as the best thing one can hope to game with and the fluff the best it was ever written.

They do not want competition simple as that and somehow in their minds if they manage to have all other sites, blogs, news outlets that may not show them in the brightest of all colours or they will definitely not show them among other products die in the next minute it will all be better for them.


That's not true. Look at what the majority of these "issues" were about--things being leaked. There is a very big difference between "You can't talk about our stuff!" and "Stop revealing releases before we do".


How are those straws holding up Kan?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:54:43


Post by: bu11etmagn3tt


Wow, just wow. I read all that info on their website, and realized GWs hobby is lawsuits! The miniatures they produce are paying for their vast idiotic and trivial lawsuits...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/04 23:56:11


Post by: SargeOsis


While it may be a long shot, they should give the folks at popehat a go. They love fighting against 800 lb gorillas as the little guy. They also do the work pro-bono generally.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 00:00:34


Post by: Bolognesus


Popehat works on generally CONUS based 1st amendment issues. far cry from this, really.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 00:54:29


Post by: warboss


 Bolognesus wrote:
Popehat works on generally CONUS based 1st amendment issues. far cry from this, really.


I'm not sure how much legal standing the 1st amendment has in a contract issue between two parties in the UK but I'd put it slightly above the Star Trek Federation Charter.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 01:04:39


Post by: Pacific


 PsychoticStorm wrote:

They have become the single worst thing the Wargaming industry has ever faced.


I'm beginning to think this..

Really.. if I were owner of BoW I would just tell GW to Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n off, and just stop covering their products completely. The problem is, as Zweischneid says, that as the most popular company they produce the most hits for website and so companies are forced to crawl through the broken glass to grovel and accept their crappy deals.

I'm all for being principled however, and it's not like they are going to be able to give an unbiased review on new GW products when the producing company has been behaving in this way.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 01:06:38


Post by: Motograter


GW the only games company that doesn't like free good publicity. Yet seemingly do everything in their power to generate all kinds of negative publicity


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 01:10:37


Post by: Compel


On the other hand, they've been messed about for quite some time by those posts and the only particularly negative stuff I've heard them say in their videos are about the Centurions and the Lord of Skulls.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 01:15:00


Post by: Motograter


Lets be honest those models deserve it


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 02:17:45


Post by: Bolognesus


 warboss wrote:
 Bolognesus wrote:
Popehat works on generally CONUS based 1st amendment issues. far cry from this, really.


I'm not sure how much legal standing the 1st amendment has in a contract issue between two parties in the UK but I'd put it slightly above the Star Trek Federation Charter.


my point, yeah.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 02:33:48


Post by: Kelly502


sigh... gonna make another GW order tonight. Also going to update my resume to send to GW...
Can't wait to get home from work and hang out in my GW man room to work on my GW model Stormlord, and three other Baneblades, while I think about the organiztaion of my up and coming Cadian Army...
Going bin some warmachine, or whatever they're called, models that someone gave me... need more room for my GW stuff.
Can't wait to build those nifty Centurians I just bought.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 02:49:30


Post by: lord marcus


Warren is on some hard snuff if he thinks BoW touched even a fraction of the number of views/gamers Kotaku, etc can generate.

Following in footsteps...wow.

However, GW clamping down is an cruel move.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 02:56:07


Post by: Azreal13


 Kelly502 wrote:
sigh... gonna make another GW order tonight. Also going to update my resume to send to GW...
Can't wait to get home from work and hang out in my GW man room to work on my GW model Stormlord, and three other Baneblades, while I think about the organiztaion of my up and coming Cadian Army...
Going bin some warmachine, or whatever they're called, models that someone gave me... need more room for my GW stuff.
Can't wait to build those nifty Centurians I just bought.


Assuming such a blatantly trollish post must have some purpose behind it other than to waste your time writing it and (more importantly) mine reading it, I can only think it must be a comprehension failure on my part, any chance of a little more clarification? Attempt at a joke I've missed? Some deep irony that somehow passed a Brit by when written by a Yank?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:15:04


Post by: Rotary


I can understand them wanting to protect secrets and new releases. At the same time though, most companys love having leaks! It means people WANT your product and there is a whole market biting at the bit to see what you will release. So i can understand them wanting to protect their secrets, but i think they totally miss handle how they do it.


Think of it this way, if another company buys out gw they are going to look like angels. All of a sudden it wont be criminal threats for leaking info and they will loosen all the sales rules making it easier to get the product out there.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:15:30


Post by: Kelly502


I'm just supporting the team mate. Love GW and I'm going to keep spending my hard earned American cash on GW stuff. Nothing trollish about my post. If you're wanting to bash someone read up some on this thread, I'm sure you'll find something else you don't like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've read the BOW posts, and watched the video. He admits they were wrong, he's trying to make nice. Although I wouldn't air out my dirty laundry this way but to each his own.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:26:08


Post by: Azreal13


 Kelly502 wrote:
I'm just supporting the team mate. Love GW and I'm going to keep spending my hard earned American cash on GW stuff. Nothing trollish about my post. If you're wanting to bash someone read up some on this thread, I'm sure you'll find something else you don't like.



No bashing, you seem to have read inflection into my post I didn't intend (and actually tried to diffuse entirely, hence the use of a smiley)

That said, while I can understand that you may enjoy the games, but are you actually saying you love GW? Remembering, as is often mentioned, that it is possible to love the product while still regarding the producer differently? 'Cause if you're genuinely saying you love GW, I think you might find yourself on a very small team in light of the actions of the last 18 months or so.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:26:31


Post by: Doomsdave


 azreal13 wrote:


Assuming such a blatantly trollish post must have some purpose behind it other than to waste your time writing it and (more importantly) mine reading it, I can only think it must be a comprehension failure on my part, any chance of a little more clarification? Attempt at a joke I've missed? Some deep irony that somehow passed a Brit by when written by a Yank?


Wow. He has been thoroughly scolded. Congratulations on policing this thread so well.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:27:28


Post by: frozenwastes


I think it would be best for everyone if everyone stopped talking about GW at all. No more word of mouth advertising for them and they can go away and the hobby would be better for it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:27:41


Post by: Azreal13


 Doomsdave wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:


Assuming such a blatantly trollish post must have some purpose behind it other than to waste your time writing it and (more importantly) mine reading it, I can only think it must be a comprehension failure on my part, any chance of a little more clarification? Attempt at a joke I've missed? Some deep irony that somehow passed a Brit by when written by a Yank?


Wow. He has been thoroughly scolded. Congratulations on policing this thread so well.


Sigh.

People are so happy to get offended on other people's behalf sometimes. I've already addressed that, thanks for the input.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:34:00


Post by: Kelly502


 frozenwastes wrote:
I think it would be best for everyone if everyone stopped talking about GW at all. No more word of mouth advertising for them and they can go away and the hobby would be better for it.


You really believe this?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:37:55


Post by: frozenwastes


 Kelly502 wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
I think it would be best for everyone if everyone stopped talking about GW at all. No more word of mouth advertising for them and they can go away and the hobby would be better for it.


You really believe this?


Any company that sues their fans for providing information about their products to other customers should go away and whatever industry they are in, everyone will be better off for it.

The GW Hobby: Getting sent a letter by GW's lawyers for talking about them on the internet.

No thanks.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:41:20


Post by: Kanluwen


 frozenwastes wrote:
 Kelly502 wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
I think it would be best for everyone if everyone stopped talking about GW at all. No more word of mouth advertising for them and they can go away and the hobby would be better for it.


You really believe this?


Any company that sues their fans for providing information about their products to other customers should go away and whatever industry they are in, everyone will be better off for it.

The GW Hobby: Getting sent a letter by GW's lawyers for talking about them on the internet.

No thanks.

Except you're not talking about "fans" providing information with Beasts of War.
You're talking about a website specializing in news and rumors that was 'bought' by Wayland Games and used as their mouthpiece.

Sure you can make the argument that the guys presenting the N&R might be fans, but that's like saying that a news presenter is a "fan" of the news.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:48:49


Post by: Doomsdave


 azreal13 wrote:
 Doomsdave wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:


Assuming such a blatantly trollish post must have some purpose behind it other than to waste your time writing it and (more importantly) mine reading it, I can only think it must be a comprehension failure on my part, any chance of a little more clarification? Attempt at a joke I've missed? Some deep irony that somehow passed a Brit by when written by a Yank?


Wow. He has been thoroughly scolded. Congratulations on policing this thread so well.


Sigh.

People are so happy to get offended on other people's behalf sometimes. I've already addressed that, thanks for the input.


Sigh. It wasn't on anyone's behalf. I was making an observation. I can always count on you to be swinging a handbag at someone in almost every thread I read. There I put in a smiley face and winky head so you'll know I'm not offended or angry.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 03:50:05


Post by: Azreal13


 Kanluwen wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
 Kelly502 wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
I think it would be best for everyone if everyone stopped talking about GW at all. No more word of mouth advertising for them and they can go away and the hobby would be better for it.


You really believe this?


Any company that sues their fans for providing information about their products to other customers should go away and whatever industry they are in, everyone will be better off for it.

The GW Hobby: Getting sent a letter by GW's lawyers for talking about them on the internet.

No thanks.

Except you're not talking about "fans" providing information with Beasts of War.
You're talking about a website specializing in news and rumors that was 'bought' by Wayland Games and used as their mouthpiece.

Sure you can make the argument that the guys presenting the N&R might be fans, but that's like saying that a news presenter is a "fan" of the news.



The personal views of those presenting the information is neither pertinent or relevant to the conversation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Doomsdave wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 Doomsdave wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:


Assuming such a blatantly trollish post must have some purpose behind it other than to waste your time writing it and (more importantly) mine reading it, I can only think it must be a comprehension failure on my part, any chance of a little more clarification? Attempt at a joke I've missed? Some deep irony that somehow passed a Brit by when written by a Yank?


Wow. He has been thoroughly scolded. Congratulations on policing this thread so well.


Sigh.

People are so happy to get offended on other people's behalf sometimes. I've already addressed that, thanks for the input.


Sigh. It wasn't on anyone's behalf. I was making an observation. I can always count on you to be swinging a handbag at someone in almost every thread I read. There I put in a smiley face and winky head so you'll know I'm not offended or angry.


Its nice my posts are so important to you that you take notice.

You do realise that if everyone agrees there is no discussion right? Therefore everyone is going to be "swinging a handbag" in any thread where there is more than one view? You obviously read more than you post, but none of the threads where I try and help people out in, say, painting and modelling, or threads featuring company's products who I like and don't frustrate me with their constant, counter intuitive weirdness?

The fact remains that you interceded in an interaction you weren't involved with, taking offence on another users behalf. I'm sure you don't go up to people in restaurants and supermarkets and interrupt conversations that don't involve you, so why do it here?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 04:03:53


Post by: Kwosge


So, let me get this straight. Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases. They thought it would be OK because the 'new' entity, that is directly affiliated with Wayland Games, didn't sign a contract with GW. Even though both Wayland and BoW set out to specifically violate a legally binding contract between GW and Wayland. And now BoW is trying to act like the victim due to the increased GW legal letters telling them to stop violating the contract that Wayland and GW signed. I just want to be on the same page with everyone.

Because that is the only thing that makes since, based off BoW bending over and taking it from GW's legal team. I mean, literally, every one of those legal letters from GW could have been ignored or BoW could have forced a middle ground with GW IF BoW was truly in the right.

I find it very hard to feel bad for Wayland or BoW when they were clearly and deliberately violating a preexisting contract with GW. Also, this is probably a publicity stunt to dog and pony GW's legal team in order to start using a 'fair use' defense against GW's letters. And if you expect me to believe that Wayland will stop violating their GW contact by providing information to BoW then you must think me for a fool.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 04:07:10


Post by: Azreal13


You have it back to front.

GW changed their trade terms in order to shut down Bow from posting rumours and leaks due to their affiliation with Wayland.

BoW were an established website in their own regard long before they became involved with Wayland and I very much doubt leaking GW stuff early was even a consideration when the agreement was first talked about.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 04:09:46


Post by: Doomsdave


 azreal13 wrote:
The personal views of those presenting the information is neither pertinent or relevant to the conversation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Doomsdave wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 Doomsdave wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:


Assuming such a blatantly trollish post must have some purpose behind it other than to waste your time writing it and (more importantly) mine reading it, I can only think it must be a comprehension failure on my part, any chance of a little more clarification? Attempt at a joke I've missed? Some deep irony that somehow passed a Brit by when written by a Yank?


Wow. He has been thoroughly scolded. Congratulations on policing this thread so well.


Sigh.

People are so happy to get offended on other people's behalf sometimes. I've already addressed that, thanks for the input.


Sigh. It wasn't on anyone's behalf. I was making an observation. I can always count on you to be swinging a handbag at someone in almost every thread I read. There I put in a smiley face and winky head so you'll know I'm not offended or angry.


Its nice my posts are so important to you that you take notice.

You do realise that if everyone agrees there is no discussion right? Therefore everyone is going to be "swinging a handbag" in any thread where there is more than one view? You obviously read more than you post, but none of the threads where I try and help people out in, say, painting and modelling, or threads featuring company's products who I like and don't frustrate me with their constant, counter intuitive weirdness?

The fact remains that you interceded in an interaction you weren't involved with, taking offence on another users behalf. I'm sure you don't go up to people in restaurants and supermarkets and interrupt conversations that don't involve you, so why do it here?


It's an internet forum. The conversation includes thousands. But if I overheard someone being a jackass in a supermarket I would definitely tell them they are a jackass. I'm not offended. And it's not on anyone's behalf. I was responding to a pattern of behavior that I perceived. If you disagree with my perception then carry on. I agree with the content of many of your posts in other threads. But in my opinion your tone is often scoldy.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 04:26:57


Post by: Azreal13


You're right, it is an Internet forum, and hence, like any written medium, inflection is impossible and sometimes miscommunications arise because of that.

I am perhaps guilty of not using emoticons to substitute inflection when I should, because, of course, in my head I know exactly what I mean, but in this case I saw that possibility and took steps to try and avoid it.

Oh, and as a wider FYI, if you think I'm scolding someone (and they haven't said something utterly bloody stupid) it's more likely incredulity translating into harsh tone, as with so many cultures, ages, experiences and opinions on here, one inevitably encounters people whose thought processes are so divergent from your own, they just leave you with an almighty WTF!


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 04:50:36


Post by: warboss


 Kwosge wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases. They thought it would be OK because the 'new' entity, that is directly affiliated with Wayland Games, didn't sign a contract with GW. Even though both Wayland and BoW set out to specifically violate a legally binding contract between GW and Wayland. And now BoW is trying to act like the victim due to the increased GW legal letters telling them to stop violating the contract that Wayland and GW signed. I just want to be on the same page with everyone.

Because that is the only thing that makes since, based off BoW bending over and taking it from GW's legal team. I mean, literally, every one of those legal letters from GW could have been ignored or BoW could have forced a middle ground with GW IF BoW was truly in the right.

I find it very hard to feel bad for Wayland or BoW when they were clearly and deliberately violating a preexisting contract with GW. Also, this is probably a publicity stunt to dog and pony GW's legal team in order to start using a 'fair use' defense against GW's letters. And if you expect me to believe that Wayland will stop violating their GW contact by providing information to BoW then you must think me for a fool.



I don't think you could have jumbled up the timeline of events any more even if you tried.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:00:10


Post by: Kelly502


Ok. The "little guy" was wrong, he admitted to it and he's more the man for doing so. The "800 lb gorilla" owns that stuff, is a business, they want to make money because it's a legitimate business it has the right to protect its assets. Period.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:08:22


Post by: badgermeister


i'm guessing all this policy change from the latter days is about a better marketing model? If people have seen pictures of new products months in advance people lose the ability to snap purchase as the novelty is far worn off on release and they think its nothing they havent seen before?

FW do a booming trade on the exact opposite - i like seeing stuff in advance because an £80 model is something i have to forward plan and budget for and being that its unique selling point on 30k is appealing i was never going to not want it because i say its WiP 3 months earlier. BTW i am saving on a warlord titan.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:11:15


Post by: Kelly502


badgermeister wrote:
i'm guessing all this policy change from the latter days is about a better marketing model? If people have seen pictures of new products months in advance people lose the ability to snap purchase as the novelty is far worn off on release and they think its nothing they havent seen before?

FW do a booming trade on the exact opposite - i like seeing stuff in advance because an £80 model is something i have to forward plan and budget for and being that its unique selling point on 30k is appealing i was never going to not want it because i say its WiP 3 months earlier. BTW i am saving on a warlord titan.


I've heard this "30K" mentioned before, are you refering to Forge World by chance? The Horus Heresy range?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:17:11


Post by: Panic


yeah,
 warboss wrote:
 Kwosge wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases. They thought it would be OK because the 'new' entity, that is directly affiliated with Wayland Games, didn't sign a contract with GW. Even though both Wayland and BoW set out to specifically violate a legally binding contract between GW and Wayland. And now BoW is trying to act like the victim due to the increased GW legal letters telling them to stop violating the contract that Wayland and GW signed. I just want to be on the same page with everyone.

Because that is the only thing that makes since, based off BoW bending over and taking it from GW's legal team. I mean, literally, every one of those legal letters from GW could have been ignored or BoW could have forced a middle ground with GW IF BoW was truly in the right.

I find it very hard to feel bad for Wayland or BoW when they were clearly and deliberately violating a preexisting contract with GW. Also, this is probably a publicity stunt to dog and pony GW's legal team in order to start using a 'fair use' defense against GW's letters. And if you expect me to believe that Wayland will stop violating their GW contact by providing information to BoW then you must think me for a fool.



I don't think you could have jumbled up the timeline of events any more even if you tried.
How do we know what the exact timeline looks like?
I doubt events are exactly as beasts of war say they are...

The way I see it Kwosge is probabily very very close to the truth.
BOW and Wayland knew what they were doing would upset GW and now that GW has told them to stop, they are having a little cry about it.

Panic...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:20:51


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 Kelly502 wrote:
Ok. The "little guy" was wrong, he admitted to it and he's more the man for doing so. The "800 lb gorilla" owns that stuff, is a business, they want to make money because it's a legitimate business it has the right to protect its assets. Period.


The little guy admitting he was "wrong" is what is commonly referred to appeasement. If they actually thought they were "wrong" they would not be requesting legal aid at the end of the post. However, quite often when you are being beat down by an 800 lb gorilla, the best course of action is to attempt to appease it until you can properly respond in kind.

The whole of what was written makes it pretty clear that they do not feel they actually did anything wrong, but felt they had no other option. This is an attempt to defuse GW from retaliating against Wayland Games.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:26:31


Post by: silent25


This isn't a GW vs. BoW directly issues. BoW is being affected by part of the new T&C's that went into affect in June. The same T&C's that banned the breaking up and selling of bits (shakes fist). Wayland's direct support of BoW conflicted with that.

There is a similar T&C in the USA that bans stores from blogging about GW products. Loken grumbled about that over at the Apocalypse 40k blog.

Only remote logic I can see is that GW doesn't want to have stores carrying their product bad mouthing it on the internet.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:32:12


Post by: warboss


 Panic wrote:
How do we know what the exact timeline looks like?
I doubt events are exactly as beasts of war say they are...

The way I see it Kwosge is probabily very very close to the truth.
BOW and Wayland knew what they were doing would upset GW and now that GW has told them to stop, they are having a little cry about it.

Panic...


http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/12/10/network-news-shocker-wayland-swallows-beasts-of-war/

The BOW/Wayland partnership predates the last two changes in the GW retailer terms. I don't know the exact timeline but I do know how to use a calendar and see that the statement "Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases" is completely false. Unless you're claiming that BOW/Wayland are psychic and predicted the 2013 terms regarding leaks sometime back in 2011 and formed their partnership to expressely violate it at a distant future date...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:33:54


Post by: Kelly502


 azreal13 wrote:
 Kelly502 wrote:
I'm just supporting the team mate. Love GW and I'm going to keep spending my hard earned American cash on GW stuff. Nothing trollish about my post. If you're wanting to bash someone read up some on this thread, I'm sure you'll find something else you don't like.



No bashing, you seem to have read inflection into my post I didn't intend (and actually tried to diffuse entirely, hence the use of a smiley)

That said, while I can understand that you may enjoy the games, but are you actually saying you love GW? Remembering, as is often mentioned, that it is possible to love the product while still regarding the producer differently? 'Cause if you're genuinely saying you love GW, I think you might find yourself on a very small team in light of the actions of the last 18 months or so.


You know, I made a comment earlier about the fact that I am going to spend cash on GW products, to break that down... Life goes on and so will GW.

Small team, surely you jest Sir.

Lesson learned? Do not bash a company's product,or release information that isn't owned by you etc etc.

Should I admit that I bought a SM Codex a day early from a "little guy" shop? hmmmm


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 05:50:32


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


 Panic wrote:


The way I see it Kwosge is probabily very very close to the truth.
BOW and Wayland knew what they were doing would upset GW and now that GW has told them to stop, they are having a little cry about it.

Panic...


Do we know exactly what the business relationship is/waas between BOW and Wayland? Because if it's formal, and they are wholly owned, as suggested by the BoK story, why even bother posting this thread? It's a contractual dispute.

If we're talking about GW pressuring independents about IP when it's fair use, that's bad. But that ain't what's happening here if BOW and Wayland are partners.

I have regular conversations with other big retailers (who unlike Wayland, deliver on time and seem to actually know what they have in stock), and while they are free with talk in some areas, slagging off the mediocre products in the GW range, they are grown-up enough not to even discuss details of certain upcoming items. Why? Because they signed a contract. If Wayland wholly own BOW and they allowed that thread to be posted, they're even less professional than I thought they were.

.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 06:00:25


Post by: Panic


yeah,
 warboss wrote:
 Panic wrote:
...The way I see it Kwosge is probabily very very close to the truth.
BOW and Wayland knew what they were doing would upset GW and now that GW has told them to stop, they are having a little cry about it...


The BOW/Wayland partnership predates the last two changes in the GW retailer terms. I don't know the exact timeline but I do know how to use a calendar and see that the statement "Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases" is completely false. Unless you're claiming that BOW/Wayland are psychic and predicted the 2013 terms regarding leaks sometime back in 2011 and formed their partnership to expressely violate it at a distant future date...


Now your being silly, fact is they partnered up with each other to grow their businesses and bank cash.
Wayland have access to trade information AND an interest in sharing all this info with BOW.
BOW want that Info and push listeners towards Wayland...

It's a simple plan.
1. Gain Access to secret Information
2. Broadcast secret Information
3. ???
4. Profit!

They would have known from the start that GW would not like this but did it anyway.
Everyone who's ever posted a leaked release schedule or blurry photo of a white dwarf page knew it was against GW policy.
I love dakka and the other bits of the internets for the little thrills we all get when we see rumour and naughty sneak peaks.

But fact is these sneak peaks etc, For right or wrong, are not apart of GWs plan.
I doubt that these T&Cs and legal letters were the first time GW told wayland and BOW to knock it on the head.

And now they have been told good and proper they are crying into their cornflakes and giving the forums the sad sob story and the big puppy eyes...

Panic...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 06:09:17


Post by: Kelly502


 Panic wrote:
 warboss wrote:
 Panic wrote:
...The way I see it Kwosge is probabily very very close to the truth.
BOW and Wayland knew what they were doing would upset GW and now that GW has told them to stop, they are having a little cry about it...


The BOW/Wayland partnership predates the last two changes in the GW retailer terms. I don't know the exact timeline but I do know how to use a calendar and see that the statement "Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases" is completely false. Unless you're claiming that BOW/Wayland are psychic and predicted the 2013 terms regarding leaks sometime back in 2011 and formed their partnership to expressely violate it at a distant future date...


Now your being silly, fact is the partnered up to grow their business,
Wayland have access to trade information AND an interest in sharing all this info with BOW.
They would have known from the start that GW would not like this but did it anyway.

Everyone who posts a leaked release schedule, blurry photo of a white dwarf page knows it's against GW policy.

I doubt that these T&Cs and legal letters were the first time GW told wayland and BOW to knock it on the head...


And now they have been told good and proper they are crying into their cornflakes and giving the forums the sad sob story and the big puppy eyes...

Panic...



Well that wraps up this thread all nice and tidy.

Moving on now...

By the way, well said.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 06:23:47


Post by: Panic


yeah,
Seriously how many times are we gonna see the Dull Knights defending the likes of chapterhouse and BOW etc..
EVIL GW is EVIL!!!

Internets leaks goes some way to explain the decreased love for WD since the 80's and early 90's.
I used to love glossing through the mag drooling over never before seen models.
But the internets is what it is and like I said we all love a rumour.

I'm not losing any sleep over GW kicking BOW in the balls.
Meh..

Panic...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 06:40:47


Post by: BEASTSOFWAR


@Panic

I'm hopping on here, and I'm happy to try and answer any questions you may have. (replies will be later tonight as I'm just heading out on a family day trip)

But basically there are a couple of points.

1) You guys on dakka and everywhere else always get the bulk of product info long before stores.

2) There are two issues at stake:

This is not about leaking information, this is about commenting upon information that has already worked its way into the public even via dakka or example.

When you move somthing from being a copyright law issue to just being a general contractual commitment, it basically means that most anything can then become a contractual issue.

And remember that the first contact we ever had from GW legal was a demand that we take down every video containing a GW product.

So based on those kinds of requests, we made the decision to part ways and move on, as neither of us wanted to risk the jobs, of girls and boys that work damn hard every day doing what they do.

On the topic of our partnership, BoW was never purchased by WG although that was the plan for sure.

And try to understand that our partnership was actually built around things we could do like events (like tabletop day and grumpy on for example) and beasts of wars strength is not in 40k, but rather in 'other ranges', so there was no grand conspiracy centred around GW releases. Remember that even when stuff leaks, the retailers are under very strict conditions as to when they can accept orders, thus nullifying the effects of that anyway. (Which in my opinion is a fair thing)

This was a decision centred around integrity, (and that was where my reference to kotaku came from, not traffic of course) if our mission is to cover the industry, then we should do that, we had options to just pretend GW didn't exist and continue a blanket freeze on coverage, but that just seems strange, and we care about what we do a lot, so we have opted for the more difficult option.

I think it's simply a case, of today it's one thing, but what will come tomorrow, and who will be the target of that.

And it's pretty impossible for small outlets like us (and dakka, warseer, BoLs etc) to stand up to that if it's directed at us.

Anyway, we're just trying our best to be open with the community on what we're doing and why. I wrote a lengthy post laying out the facts, and I can't expect everyone to understand them, or even read them, but if you haven't read them please take a moment to do so, as it gives a better picture of why we're here.

Again, I'm very happy to try and answer questions, so you have answers rather than speculation

Cheers guys

Warren


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 06:52:36


Post by: Azazelx


 Kelly502 wrote:
I'm just supporting the team mate. Love GW and I'm going to keep spending my hard earned American cash on GW stuff. Nothing trollish about my post.


The part about "throw some Warmachine in the bin to make room for more GW" was pretty trollish. FWIW, I don't mind in the slightest if you buy lots of GW stuff. I do as well.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 06:55:43


Post by: Kelly502


Ok, folk can bash GW but I can't say I'm getting rid of some stuff that's worthless to me? Alrighty then.. Call me a troll and give me a bridge.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 06:59:13


Post by: BEASTSOFWAR


By the way, I'm not being anti GW. We love their stuff (well most of it), and are really looking forward to digging through it all again.

Am I concerned about the steps they take to control things, yup I am, do I understand that, that's what they are just gonna do, yup I understand that too.

All we can do really is go with it.

I wish there wasn't so much anti GW sentiment around, and it's unfortunate but not unexpected that it pours out once again.

I'm not sure what we can do about that (if anything)


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 07:01:16


Post by: Kelly502


 BEASTSOFWAR wrote:
By the way, I'm not being anti GW. We love their stuff (well most of it), and are really looking forward to digging through it all again.

Am I concerned about the steps they take to control things, yup I am, do I understand that, that's what they are just gonna do, yup I understand that too.

All we can do really is go with it.

I wish there wasn't so much anti GW sentiment around, and it's unfortunate but not unexpected that it pours out once again.

I'm not sure what we can do about that (if anything)


You Sir, are the man for taking responsibility and doing the right thing!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azazelx wrote:
 Kelly502 wrote:
I'm just supporting the team mate. Love GW and I'm going to keep spending my hard earned American cash on GW stuff. Nothing trollish about my post.


The part about "throw some Warmachine in the bin to make room for more GW" was pretty trollish. FWIW, I don't mind in the slightest if you buy lots of GW stuff. I do as well.


Oh gosh I'm glad you don't mind that I buy GW. Thank you.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 07:41:18


Post by: manrogue


Lets be honest, as Warren says above, how many people go to BoW for GW leaks?

I already know about them well before they report because of Dakka, the only one in recent memory i can remember getting from BoW was the Stormtalon, Dakkajet etc hand drawn pics. Even then, i am pretty sure that it was reported on Dakka first and that we just didn't know what they looked like.

I usually go to BoW for the featured weeks, but from reading the statement they are trying to prevent that as well. Which is what i personally have an issue with.

I buy a lot of GW stuff and love a lot of the models they produce but that doesn't prevent this from being a pretty <insert swear word of choice> move.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 08:04:20


Post by: warspawned


 Panic wrote:


Internets leaks goes some way to explain the decreased love for WD since the 80's and early 90's.
I used to love glossing through the mag drooling over never before seen models.
But the internets is what it is and like I said we all love a rumour.

Panic...


Large response in Spoiler:

Spoiler:
For me all the leaks made by BOW (whose coverage I do like), Warseer, here on Dakka, BOLS etc - just shows enthusiasm for new GW product - an enthusiasm that they do very little to cater for or foster themselves, unless we regard their minute long teaser videos a week in advance of advance orders that the online community already knew about weeks/months in advance as a genuine attempt to get their customers excited by a new release

The online wargaming community, and the larger part of it is still devoted toward GW, is doing all GW's publicity for them. GW seem to have a problem with this but won't take the effort on themselves.

I understand that GW needed to tell/show what was coming a month or so in advance through White Dwarf back in the 80's/90's - even in the early 00's - however that doesn't also mean that advance notice and new information of new releases isn't warranted either. The lack of love for WD is because the magazine (which was always a catalogue for their product so I have no problem with viewing it as such) has lacked any decent material for years - as in back in the 80's/90's we used to get rules, background - extracts from as yet unpublished codex/army books etc. I can actually read those WD's, the newer ones I can flick through and be done with in a moment from sitting on the toilet - there's little to no gaming content, no proper painting articles anymore, no in depth tactica's, no missions - there's nothing in it that makes me feel it's worth it's money anymore as a gaming supplement and the internet fulfills the role as hobby inspiration.

It's not that I feel BOW, BOLS, Warseer, Us et al. are expressly 'right' (in the uptight/strictest of all legal senses) to release info/rumours/pictures of GW's new product before GW, but I do feel that GW, if it is to act so seriously and preciously about its IP and product, should at least pick up the weight of excitement and expectation themselves and give their fans and customers what they want - information, preview images, rules teasers etc. If they did a 5-10 minute video similar to a movie special prior to release, where we can have interview snipets regarding rules/product design, teaser/design images (they could take a page out of Forgeworld's book for this) and/or make WD have a decent word count again then this would go some way to addressing the obvious desires of their cumstomers.

Their pursuit of silencing rumours is as futile as trying to disarm a bomb after its already gone off. Surely the smart and right thing to do is do all the promo work yourself, that way you can control the quality of the images and be sure the information is accurate? It's stupid as most of us want GW coverage/product, which they don't supply themselves, and when someone else does supply it, they choose to send a C&D letter or two as if they don't want the expectation that helps generate business to exist at all

When it comes to the promotion of their product GW are quite mad, I can think of no company like them - it's like they want it all to be Top Secret, as if the enemy has spies everywhere, as if people want what they have to sell before they are 'ready' to sell it - they're paranoid/clearly mental.

I also feel people are reading too much into Wayland and BOW's partnership - it just made journalistic sense to be around a retailer with a vast gaming space for better coverage, as well as to meet and talk to other gamer's - let's not forget that BOW advertise pretty much every game in the industry with articles, news snippets and links to almost every manufacturers store front's, as well as Wayland's. The BOW guys aren't doing what they do for the money, as I'd imagine it's not a very secure way of life, they're doing it because they care and are genuinely passionate about wargaming in general and it's that enthusiasm which GW are punishing them for, perhaps 'rightly' in some instances, such as the Necron leak, and they're using BOW's association with Wayland (whatever you may think of it) as legal leverage, but wrongly in that it seems GW can't take criticism of a product, be it positive or negative. No other manufacturer I know of does as much to stifle reviews/previews as GW does. They release a product that their customers have a clear right to review/criticise/praise in equal measure and I can't see how they can legally stop this kind of coverage.

I am not surprised by GW's action on BOW and I think the guy's over at BOW should (if they didn't already) have expected this. I am not angry at GW (as I'm gladly past getting too emotional over toy soldiers thought that's not to say I don't care enough to type a long post about it) but I am frustrated by their constant legal actions against those with a genuine love for their IP and product and for those who are catering towards gaps in GW's product (however you regard them). The point is if GW did this all themselves, as any sane manufacturer would, there'd be no need for any lawsuits/threats of anykind and GW wouldn't have created its own competition like it has done regarding chapter house, bits sellers etc. An argument can even be made for entire game systems/miniature companies that wouldn't exist were it not for GW, that are now taking GW's business from them at quite a rate of knots, due to GW's poor PR and arrogance/self-marvel at their own product.

I just find GW so frustrating it's no surprise they polarise some members of the community as they do. GW have become too corporate for a company that deals with people's leisure time, they really have become like a Nestle of wargaming. There's no faceslap or natural herb stick big enough to cure GW's insanity.


In short it seems to me the whole leaks/rumour debacle can be summed up as: we want what they have, but they don't want us to want what they have unless they tell us directly what they have, in order for us to want what they have, all on their own terms



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 08:33:12


Post by: Pacific


I think the important point here is that, if this can happen to BoW, where next?

There are few more enthusiastic places about the industry than BoW, and to be honest most of the time the enthusiasm is catching and it makes the website a great place to visit. That's what makes this so galling in part that they should fall under the crosshairs, although we've seen in the past with the numerous fansites that, doesn't matter how much of a fan you are and how much you try and placate, the legal department of the parent company will still send those letters.

Kelly502, I can see you're playing devil's advocate here regarding the legal issues, but can you not see how all of this is massively detrimental to the hobby and industry? The GW has a 'right' (on what seems like extremely spurious grounds) to challenge them in this way doesn't then make it the right thing to do, and the backlash against it is fully warranted.

Do you think for a moment that any of the GW design team, who surely like most of us are just generally good human beings wanting to talk and write about something we enjoy, would genuinely believe in curtailing such a source and hub of that fan enjoyment?

Note that I've not mentioned any fact at all about the issue of how a company should treat its fans. It's obvious in this case that it's going to end up as just another -1 for the fans.. I guess at this point you've either long since gone or don't care so in either case not sure how much of an effect it will have.



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 08:39:09


Post by: frozenwastes


 Kelly502 wrote:
Ok. The "little guy" was wrong, he admitted to it and he's more the man for doing so. The "800 lb gorilla" owns that stuff, is a business, they want to make money because it's a legitimate business it has the right to protect its assets. Period.


A company's commercial interests should never be put before the freedom of the press. GW's lawyers demanding the removal of every video depicting GW product is just a ludicrous attempt at bullying.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 08:56:28


Post by: Palindrome


I think that a GW centric rumour blog run by an IP lawyer would be a really interestng thing. I don't think that GW's habit of sending spurious C&D letters would have much of an impact then.....


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 08:59:16


Post by: Kelly502


 frozenwastes wrote:
 Kelly502 wrote:
Ok. The "little guy" was wrong, he admitted to it and he's more the man for doing so. The "800 lb gorilla" owns that stuff, is a business, they want to make money because it's a legitimate business it has the right to protect its assets. Period.


A company's commercial interests should never be put before the freedom of the press. GW's lawyers demanding the removal of every video depicting GW product is just a ludicrous attempt at bullying.


Freedom of the press? That doesn't apply to this, because we are talking images owned by GW leaked out by a group to a fan base. Just because you have photos of a company's products before they are released isn't freedom of the press. Freedom of the press for example, is releasing information you have gained informing people of a company charging taxes on the full price of consumer item when it's on sale. Then the company pocketing the money everyone overpaid in taxes. Again an example I was actually investigating once way back when... That's an example of informative freedom of the press. Not leaking images of a toy company's new shiny toys before they are released. they have the right to tell someone to pull video if they do not think the production represents their best interests. If something is shown in a negative light then I don't blame them.





Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 09:01:43


Post by: filbert


Presumably you feel the same about Dakka then, given that most of the leaks BoW feature are posted here first?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 09:11:32


Post by: Motograter


As above every one saying bow got what they deserve by that right you lot would be happy to see dakka go as well


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 09:13:29


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Seriously how many times are we gonna see the Dull Knights defending the likes of chapterhouse and BOW etc..
EVIL GW is EVIL!!!

Internets leaks goes some way to explain the decreased love for WD since the 80's and early 90's.
I used to love glossing through the mag drooling over never before seen models.
But the internets is what it is and like I said we all love a rumour.

I'm not losing any sleep over GW kicking BOW in the balls.
Meh..

Panic...


I think the decreasing love for WD was more because it turned into a steaming pile of brown stuff, rather than internet leaks affecting it.


Now, I'm sure I'm probably wrong on this, but months ago on this forum, there was a discussion about a certain video games company, lets call them Electronic Arts for the sake of this argument were using images that were VERY VERY VERY VERY similar to some of GW's stuff. Now, I'm wondering if that super rich, multi-million dollar company is losing sleep over legal letters sent to it by GW?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 09:22:56


Post by: Krinsath


 Kelly502 wrote:
Freedom of the press? That doesn't apply to this, because we are talking images owned by GW leaked out by a group to a fan base. Just because you have photos of a company's products before they are released isn't freedom of the press. Freedom of the press for example, is releasing information you have gained informing people of a company charging taxes on the full price of consumer item when it's on sale. Then the company pocketing the money everyone overpaid in taxes. Again an example I was actually investigating once way back when... That's an example of informative freedom of the press. Not leaking images of a toy company's new shiny toys before they are released. they have the right to tell someone to pull video if they do not think the production represents their best interests. If something is shown in a negative light then I don't blame them.


Not to drag the real world too far into this but "ownership" doesn't matter even one little bit when it comes to the press. Once the press has their hands on something, they are free to do whatever they want with it. They have no obligation to any rights holder at any time. Consider the NSA and diplomatic cable leaks; that information was outright stolen from their rightful owners with no intent to *ever* be released unlike advertising copy. Yet the press is free to report on the content turned over to them no matter how much the US huffs and puffs.

This is why GW targeted Wayland via trade terms, because they knew it was a rocky course to pursue BoW under copyright law for exactly that reason. So, BoW is simply severing the connection, which likely was irrelevant to the source of news anyway, to protect their partner.

If GW wants to hunt down leaks, that's fine. It's a problem most big companies have to deal with and it's an internal security matter. Once that information leaves your domain though, you cease to have the ability to regulate it. Hence why you're better served by never letting it get out in the first place.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 09:27:23


Post by: Herzlos


 Kanluwen wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Essentially GW wishes all the coverage about them to pass through them and nobody else, they want absolute control on how they might get depicted and they do not want their products showcased among somebody else.

The pig picture so frequently show here must be depicted as something worth paying money for, the systems must be depicted as the best thing one can hope to game with and the fluff the best it was ever written.

They do not want competition simple as that and somehow in their minds if they manage to have all other sites, blogs, news outlets that may not show them in the brightest of all colours or they will definitely not show them among other products die in the next minute it will all be better for them.


That's not true. Look at what the majority of these "issues" were about--things being leaked. There is a very big difference between "You can't talk about our stuff!" and "Stop revealing releases before we do".


Nah, the earlier GW letters wanted BOW to remove any video/image from their site containing any GW works*, and they asked them not to share an official GW video on youtube. They want BOW to shut down as they advertise other games

*Which is essentially a shutdown. There's probably a GW box in the background of every video on the site, and that's a lot of editing or removable.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 09:28:48


Post by: Kelly502


 filbert wrote:
Presumably you feel the same about Dakka then, given that most of the leaks BoW feature are posted here first?


Maybe they're next?

I like information, glimpses of something new, heck I like BOW! But when it boils down to it there was somwthing wrong. The BOW fellow admitted to what was in question, did a bang up jub of trying to keep everyone happy, and extended his hand out to GW in an apology and he is driving on. Not whining or bashing GW in a tantrum. Really shows great character.

I truly think when he posted on this very thread that this thread died right then with his post. No real need to carry on with it because he's not... think about it.

These guys love war games, and I've appreciated their videos and such.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 09:33:49


Post by: Compel


 filbert wrote:
Presumably you feel the same about Dakka then, given that most of the leaks BoW feature are posted here first?


I think that's a very good point. Sites like Dakka could very well be the next target. You see 'Wayland Games' ads in the top corner. You see other store ads. The latest GW threat to BoW was just about them talking about the latest rumours.

In June it’s feasibility ended…

June 2013 Games Workshop released their new trade terms which contain this:

9.4 If any Affiliates of the Trade Account disseminate or otherwise make available to the public any information in respect of new release Products prior to any Advance Order Date in respect of such Products, then, for a period of 6 months, GW shall not despatch new release Products to that Trade Account until 30 days following the Global Release Date for such Products.


It would not be a stretch of the imagination for GW to decide that, "Stores contribute to sponsoring dakka. That makes Dakka an affiliate. People discuss and share information about new Release products. We will send the lawyers after dakka."



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 10:04:20


Post by: Bull0


Don't really have a problem with this. There's a world of difference between the kind of thing IGN/Gamespot/whoever do and what BoW do. If GW have an exclusive right to communicate images of their new products to the public under UK law, then that's the law, and arguing whether or not that law is fit for purpose is another discussion entirely. I realise being ambivalent to this will probably not be a popular position.




Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 10:06:57


Post by: Kelly502


 Bull0 wrote:
Don't really have a problem with this. There's a world of difference between the kind of thing IGN/Gamespot/whoever do and what BoW do. If GW have an exclusive right to communicate images of their new products to the public under UK law, then that's the law, and arguing whether or not that law is fit for purpose is another discussion entirely. I realise being ambivalent to this will probably not be a popular position.




Yet another thread ending statement. wonder how much longer it goes on after his post? Ambivalence apparently is the small club.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since we are going to stop talking about GW and that will end their existance according to one posting Dakkite, I guess I'll switch to Flames of War or that cool looking Bolt Action gig...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 10:19:20


Post by: Compel


 Bull0 wrote:
Don't really have a problem with this. There's a world of difference between the kind of thing IGN/Gamespot/whoever do and what BoW do. If GW have an exclusive right to communicate images of their new products to the public under UK law, then that's the law, and arguing whether or not that law is fit for purpose is another discussion entirely.


Except, that's really not what GW's latest demand was about. - As people were saying, the only time Beasts of War did anything related to 'images' was 2 years ago now with the Storm Talon *sketch*. And a badly drawn sketch at that.

What this latest move is nothing to do with UK law, it's contract (ab)use, with Wayland games. GW are literally say, 'no, anyone tangentially related to you cannot talk about what anyone else who can use google knows about."


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 10:31:22


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 Compel wrote:
 filbert wrote:
Presumably you feel the same about Dakka then, given that most of the leaks BoW feature are posted here first?


I think that's a very good point. Sites like Dakka could very well be the next target. You see 'Wayland Games' ads in the top corner. You see other store ads. The latest GW threat to BoW was just about them talking about the latest rumours.

In June it’s feasibility ended…

June 2013 Games Workshop released their new trade terms which contain this:

9.4 If any Affiliates of the Trade Account disseminate or otherwise make available to the public any information in respect of new release Products prior to any Advance Order Date in respect of such Products, then, for a period of 6 months, GW shall not despatch new release Products to that Trade Account until 30 days following the Global Release Date for such Products.


It would not be a stretch of the imagination for GW to decide that, "Stores contribute to sponsoring dakka. That makes Dakka an affiliate. People discuss and share information about new Release products. We will send the lawyers after dakka."




Have no fear. Yakface will fight off the GW lawyers until his dying breath (or the money runs out!). I know the guy, we're old 'Nam buddies!

Jokes aside, this site is legally watertight. I hope!


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 10:32:34


Post by: Zweischneid


 Kwosge wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases. They thought it would be OK because the 'new' entity, that is directly affiliated with Wayland Games, didn't sign a contract with GW. Even though both Wayland and BoW set out to specifically violate a legally binding contract between GW and Wayland. And now BoW is trying to act like the victim due to the increased GW legal letters telling them to stop violating the contract that Wayland and GW signed. I just want to be on the same page with everyone.

Because that is the only thing that makes since, based off BoW bending over and taking it from GW's legal team. I mean, literally, every one of those legal letters from GW could have been ignored or BoW could have forced a middle ground with GW IF BoW was truly in the right.

I find it very hard to feel bad for Wayland or BoW when they were clearly and deliberately violating a preexisting contract with GW. Also, this is probably a publicity stunt to dog and pony GW's legal team in order to start using a 'fair use' defense against GW's letters. And if you expect me to believe that Wayland will stop violating their GW contact by providing information to BoW then you must think me for a fool.


If that is the case, it would still stand to argue that the contractual obligations GW places on retailers are ... strange.

The entire, admittedly sometimes not 100% transparent relationship between Wayland Games and BoW wouldn't even be an issue if Wayland Games (or any other etailer) could just have their own little (or not so little) Blog/YouTube-channel, etc.. to promote the GW products they sell.

Ironically, it seems like an inversion of the hoops US 3rd party sellers of GW need to jump through.

In the EU, etailers like Wayland can have online-shopping carts, but can't run a blog, etc.. to advertise the stuff. In the US, Bolsmarket, Spiky Bitz, etc.. all run a blog, forum, youtube, etc.. to keep the hype up, but can't have online-shopping carts.

If GW ever gets away with "crossing the streams", you'll be left with etailers who can't have a shopping cart and can't promote the stuff they can't sell by shopping cart. It'll be websites with a single phone-number and the faint hope that some people still find it


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 10:34:21


Post by: Void_walker


Wow, bit sad on GW behalf to be honest. Think they are the only company that don't want consumers to know about their products till the last minute.

All the best to BoW and Waylands - at least there are plenty of other war gaming companies that want their customers to know about their products and what they think


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 10:44:49


Post by: Compel


 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Have no fear. Yakface will fight off the GW lawyers until his dying breath (or the money runs out!). I know the guy, we're old 'Nam buddies!

Jokes aside, this site is legally watertight. I hope!


I imagine the more likely result would be, Dakka having to do what BoW did and sever all sponsorship ties with stores that stock GW product. - Would Dakka's income hold out then? That's my worry. I suppose if that does happen, I may need to get off my rear and become a DCM.

It's all just still more proof to add to the theory that GW is trying to phase out independent stores selling their products.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:16:08


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Kelly502 wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
Don't really have a problem with this. There's a world of difference between the kind of thing IGN/Gamespot/whoever do and what BoW do. If GW have an exclusive right to communicate images of their new products to the public under UK law, then that's the law, and arguing whether or not that law is fit for purpose is another discussion entirely. I realise being ambivalent to this will probably not be a popular position.




Yet another thread ending statement. wonder how much longer it goes on after his post? Ambivalence apparently is the small club.

You seem to be assuming that because someone makes an argument that you agree with, the discussion is over, despite the fact that others may have counter-arguments or other ideas to bring up. There are a lot of people bringing up some good points here, why not promote the discussion rather than trying to 'win' by getting in the last word? (Again, I may be wrong here, but this is how it's coming across to me.)

I think that though GW probably does have solid legal argument as per the contracts they previously established, it certainly wasn't a good move for publicity. I'm in that camp of enjoying GW product but having serious doubts about the abilities of the company, and this reinforces that. It would be interesting to hear from some people within GW, maybe more on the creative side of things, what they thought about other branches of the company discouraging publicity (intentionally or no). They really do some great work, particularly in the technical quality of their plastics, yet it seems like overall GW does not capitalize on it nearly as well as they could.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:21:31


Post by: Kelly502


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Kelly502 wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
Don't really have a problem with this. There's a world of difference between the kind of thing IGN/Gamespot/whoever do and what BoW do. If GW have an exclusive right to communicate images of their new products to the public under UK law, then that's the law, and arguing whether or not that law is fit for purpose is another discussion entirely. I realise being ambivalent to this will probably not be a popular position.




Yet another thread ending statement. wonder how much longer it goes on after his post? Ambivalence apparently is the small club.

You seem to be assuming that because someone makes an argument that you agree with, the discussion is over, despite the fact that others may have counter-arguments or other ideas to bring up. There are a lot of people bringing up some good points here, why not promote the discussion rather than trying to 'win' by getting in the last word? (Again, I may be wrong here, but this is how it's coming across to me.)

I think that though GW probably does have solid legal argument as per the contracts they previously established, it certainly wasn't a good move for publicity. I'm in that camp of enjoying GW product but having serious doubts about the abilities of the company, and this reinforces that. It would be interesting to hear from some people within GW, maybe more on the creative side of things, what they thought about other branches of the company discouraging publicity (intentionally or no). They really do some great work, particularly in the technical quality of their plastics, yet it seems like overall GW does not capitalize on it nearly as well as they could.


You're assuming, I don't need a last word. The actual BOW made statements, that could have ended the thread, several others made well spoken statements those could have ened the thread. Really nothing to discuss if you stay on topic after those. But it will continue as it always does.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:30:05


Post by: rich1231


It gets tricky in the EU if a party could be considered dominant. But thats a chat for another day.

I know this has been an incredibly hard choice for all involved, being one of the parties .
I hope those that partook of BOW over the last year would have noticed that there was no massive Waylandisation of the site. That was never the intent. We wanted to grow the hobby, indeed we still do. This issue was related to what they could and could not post about without putting at risk all the jobs of their colleagues in Wayland. There was no clear information from GW about what could be posted etc and even if the entire internet was aware of something BOW would still invoke a punishment of Wayland for commenting on them. It put BOW in an impossible position.

We are all gutted over this.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:32:55


Post by: NinthMusketeer


You're assuming, I don't need a last word. The actual BOW made statements, that could have ended the thread, several others made well spoken statements those could have ened the thread. Really nothing to discuss if you stay on topic after those. But it will continue as it always does.


Apologies for the assumption then. Though I'm curious as to why you felt these comments were good thread-enders, they didn't seem as such to me. Furthermore, I disagree with the idea that there is nothing (on-topic) to discuss.

On the topic of discussion, what's your take on the publicity aspect of this? Regardless of how much one supports GW it seems like the majority of people respect/approve of the company less due to this, surely that can't be a good business plan?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:40:43


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


Forget BOW , what about Dakka? From what is being said, Dakka could fall foul of its association with wayland! We need a Mod, or somebody in the know, to set the record straight on this. Dakka has long been critical of GW, this could be the chance they're after to put the nails in the dakka coffin!

Tells us Mods - are we safe? The public has a right to know!


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:44:02


Post by: rich1231


Do I not like that...

Don't worry Dakka is safe.

Its not about advertising.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:45:52


Post by: Zweischneid


rich1231 wrote:
Do I not like that...

Don't worry Dakka is safe.

Its not about advertising.


I think it is about the affiliate programme, no?

Are GW products part of the affiliate programme? Are "pre-release" pre-orders part of the affiliate programme? Is participating in it an "association with Wayland Games"?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:50:27


Post by: rich1231


No its not about the affiliate program as that is advertising. Its about key employees, fundamentally.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 11:55:58


Post by: Agamemnon2


Motograter wrote:
As above every one saying bow got what they deserve by that right you lot would be happy to see dakka go as well

Sure, why not. This place isn't irreplaceable.

 Panic wrote:

Internets leaks goes some way to explain the decreased love for WD since the 80's and early 90's.
I used to love glossing through the mag drooling over never before seen models.
But the internets is what it is and like I said we all love a rumour.

I used to love WD too. It was the best part of what was a stunted and unfertile community because before the Internet kicked off, there was no way to make anything better. Now there is, and try as it might, GW cannot force the genie back into the bottle.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 12:14:30


Post by: Yonan


If GW hadn't already paved the road to China due to the ridiculous Aus RRP, this would have done the trick. The BoW guys are great, this is just another in a long line of anti-consumer measures. If they want to be anti-customer, I'm more than happy to be anti-business WRT them.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 13:31:04


Post by: Kanluwen


Herzlos wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Essentially GW wishes all the coverage about them to pass through them and nobody else, they want absolute control on how they might get depicted and they do not want their products showcased among somebody else.

The pig picture so frequently show here must be depicted as something worth paying money for, the systems must be depicted as the best thing one can hope to game with and the fluff the best it was ever written.

They do not want competition simple as that and somehow in their minds if they manage to have all other sites, blogs, news outlets that may not show them in the brightest of all colours or they will definitely not show them among other products die in the next minute it will all be better for them.


That's not true. Look at what the majority of these "issues" were about--things being leaked. There is a very big difference between "You can't talk about our stuff!" and "Stop revealing releases before we do".


Nah, the earlier GW letters wanted BOW to remove any video/image from their site containing any GW works*, and they asked them not to share an official GW video on youtube. They want BOW to shut down as they advertise other games

*Which is essentially a shutdown. There's probably a GW box in the background of every video on the site, and that's a lot of editing or removable.

That's not unreasonable though. Generally if you're running a website you don't simply embed someone else's material, you rehost it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 15:16:18


Post by: SickSix


I think BoW should never cover another GW product again. There are enough other companies and kickstarters out there to keep them busy.

I love the 40k ip but I can continue to play and love it with what I currently own.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 15:22:28


Post by: Zweischneid


 SickSix wrote:
I think BoW should never cover another GW product again. There are enough other companies and kickstarters out there to keep them busy.

I love the 40k ip but I can continue to play and love it with what I currently own.


Funny enough, Kickstarters may well be one of the reasons why "strictly-no-GW" won't work for a Wayland-BoW-style cooperation either.

For every GW legal letter giving etailers and resellers a headache, another company bypassing the juicy "product-launch-sales" with a Kickstarter is squeezing them just as much from the other side, leaving them only with a trickle of after-sales from an ever-growing list of "games-formerly-on-Kickstarter-stocks", long after the initial hype a news-site thrives on is gone.



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 15:50:18


Post by: bit81


Well I now give up with gw have put away a few hundred pounds for scenery (most would have went to games workshop) but I am afraid that will no longer be possible.

I will not purchase or play any gw product from here on out (yes it wont make the slightest bit of difference to the game or the company) but there has to be a line some where using my hard earned money to give to lawyers is a straw to far.

I happen to like the beasts of war shows what they need to do is move to china no copy right laws there that would f**k gw up completely or just start burning down gw premises which ever works best

hehe yes most will have thought of this and a great many will say not having any more to do with gw sick of it all


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:04:36


Post by: bu11etmagn3tt


Damn the world is going nuts. Over stuff like this even? Geesh. There is a game called "Things" suing another game called "Terrible Things" over the use of using "things" in their name... I think game/hobby companies have lost focus on the gamers/hobbiests and the fact their business is easily effected by their actions and/or inactions.... I am so turned off by GW I wont buy anything from them anymore. I will play my painted army in a gw store, but that is it. (Just my opinion)


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:19:26


Post by: nkelsch


 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
Damn the world is going nuts. Over stuff like this even? Geesh. There is a game called "Things" suing another game called "Terrible Things" over the use of using "things" in their name... I think game/hobby companies have lost focus on the gamers/hobbiests and the fact their business is easily effected by their actions and/or inactions.... I am so turned off by GW I wont buy anything from them anymore. I will play my painted army in a gw store, but that is it. (Just my opinion)


But most people who play GW games have no idea who Beast of War are. I have never even been to their website and they don't even turn up high on google search results when I look for RPG and Wargame products or news. You would be surprised how many gamers have nothing to do with internet fandoms and don't get their news this way.

And then you assume if people hear about it, they actually care... Internet outrage overestimating their impact on sales and proportion of the market.

GW can have whatever trade requirements that they want... you tied your business to that wagon train, then deal with it. If you don't like it, don't do business with them. Zweischneid is right... Even with GW's news squashing, no leaks media lockdown, stores still need GW and are selling GW to keep the lights on way more than these KS business cutting the FLGS and the MSRP markup out of the business model. At least when GW does release a product and announce it, all you really need to assure your customers is 'you carry that product, please buy from me.' Being an internet wanna-be scoopmeister and leaking trade secrets... well that doesn't mesh with being a trade partner with rules against it.



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:25:46


Post by: cincydooley


I can't say I was ever really a fan of beast of war in the first place. Too often their videos, while having lots of flash, often felt bereft of substance.

They clearly realize GW is important to their site traffic so that's why they're going to continue to cover them. I guess it seems a bit unfair, but if those are the trade restrictions GW wants to place, you've gotta abide by them if you want to be a partner.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:35:06


Post by: Relapse


I think BoW should have gotten a clue from the first contact to cease and desist from GW. That aside...

It's probably been already said in this thread, but I say screw GW. The world has turned and there are a boatload of other equaly as good or better games out there to give attention to.
Let GW sit in it's corner like a brat, hoarding all the stale pie while everyone else is getting the stuff fresh from the oven.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:42:03


Post by: Frankenberry


Just another example of GW bullying those smaller and weaker than they in an effort to maintain some sort of paranoid hold on their empire.

I don't generally bash GW, but this is just sad.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:44:40


Post by: filbert


I'm looking at this from a wider perspective, not just as an issue of trade/affiliate dispute but as a growing trend from GW towards the marketplace in general and it is yet another example of GW flexing it's financial and legal muscles to effectively bully someone into doing what they want. The problem is, where does it stop? GW have used their new distributor rules to effect this result this time round but there is nothing to stop them going after websites like Dakka in order to persue this relentless clampdown on news and rumour that they seem to think is such a good idea. And who, upon recieving a C&D is likely to have the stones or funds to fight back? All the Blood Bowl fansites that got shut down and the rumour munger websites that got hit will attest to this.

Whether you thought GW were right or wrong in the recent Chapterhouse case, I think many would still appreciate GW's right to have brought the case (notwithstanding some of the underhand tactics used) but this strikes me as bullying, plain and simple. Today it's BoW, tomorrow, who knows?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:48:36


Post by: Soteks Prophet


GW's new release policy:

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 16:56:56


Post by: Dullspork


 Kelly502 wrote:


You're assuming, I don't need a last word. The actual BOW made statements, that could have ended the thread, several others made well spoken statements those could have ened the thread. Really nothing to discuss if you stay on topic after those. But it will continue as it always does.


Do you understand the irony of your own continuing posts on this subject?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 17:04:53


Post by: legoburner


 Compel wrote:
 filbert wrote:
Presumably you feel the same about Dakka then, given that most of the leaks BoW feature are posted here first?


I think that's a very good point. Sites like Dakka could very well be the next target. You see 'Wayland Games' ads in the top corner. You see other store ads. The latest GW threat to BoW was just about them talking about the latest rumours.

In June it’s feasibility ended…

June 2013 Games Workshop released their new trade terms which contain this:

9.4 If any Affiliates of the Trade Account disseminate or otherwise make available to the public any information in respect of new release Products prior to any Advance Order Date in respect of such Products, then, for a period of 6 months, GW shall not despatch new release Products to that Trade Account until 30 days following the Global Release Date for such Products.


It would not be a stretch of the imagination for GW to decide that, "Stores contribute to sponsoring dakka. That makes Dakka an affiliate. People discuss and share information about new Release products. We will send the lawyers after dakka."




Dakka would not even sweat if all GW selling advertisers disappeared so you dont have to worry about Dakka, between google ads, DCMs and indie gaming companies we are well covered to the point of being able to meet expenses. We are US based (much stronger freedom of speech rules), have plenty of legal options including pro-bono if it came down to it and are structured in a way that will allow us to avoid any repercussions of direct action if it came down to it. Saying that, we always action C&Ds from GW and try to obey the spirit of the rules they set because there are other sites who are worried about being rumour sites whereas we just want a place for people to enjoy their hobby. As such, we've always had a respectable relationship with GW and dont feel that we have anything to fear. If GW want to kill online interest in their products then we are happy to let them as there are plenty of other good companies out there making good products that we equally enjoy as part of the hobby. Dakka's traffic continues to increase despite the GW slice of the traffic pie decreasing.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 17:05:28


Post by: Grimtuff


 Pacific wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:

They have become the single worst thing the Wargaming industry has ever faced.


I'm beginning to think this..

Really.. if I were owner of BoW I would just tell GW to Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n off, and just stop covering their products completely. The problem is, as Zweischneid says, that as the most popular company they produce the most hits for website and so companies are forced to crawl through the broken glass to grovel and accept their crappy deals.

I'm all for being principled however, and it's not like they are going to be able to give an unbiased review on new GW products when the producing company has been behaving in this way.


Likewise. I daresay they've actually managed to surpass the infamous TSR in the assclown leagues.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 17:07:59


Post by: cincydooley




GW traffic is decreasing? Really? Aside from KS Update threads and Politics threads, it seems like the GW stuff gets the most reads at a casual notice. How much of a decrease are we talking about?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 17:09:59


Post by: legoburner


Their total traffic is only going down by a few percentage points per year, but the overall pie is growing by about 15-20% per year leading to quite a decrease overall relative to the market.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 17:10:39


Post by: Grimtuff


 cincydooley wrote:


GW traffic is decreasing? Really? Aside from KS Update threads and Politics threads, it seems like the GW stuff gets the most reads at a casual notice. How much of a decrease are we talking about?


He's referring to the Google search term of "Warhammer 40k" whose stats are displayed in the link Lego provided.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 17:17:05


Post by: Slipstream


I've said this before but;
1) Maybe its time independents banded together and told them unless there is a dramatic rethink in their trade policies we won't carry your products", Oh wait, we're still making money!
2) There are plenty of alternative games/miniature systems that with a little more support from independents could be more profitable? Perhaps help raise their profile?
3) GW coudln't survive without the independents;there is your power, I suggest you use it.
4) GW not keen on advertising? Fine. Advertise other systems instead of 'advance order' emails to customers telling them to get their order in for the latest GW releases. Oh wait, we still make money from GW.
A bit cynical I know but there have been plenty of independents moaning about the latest nonsense from GW yet they are quite happy to accept it because they know the stuff will sell; the only way anything is going to change is if the independents wish it. Principals or cash,ladies and gentlemen?
P.s. Sooner or later I honestly think GW will be coming after Dakka; afterall Dakka doesn't follow the party line does it? LONG MAY IT CONTINUE!


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 17:23:04


Post by: warboss


 legoburner wrote:
Dakka would not even sweat if all GW selling advertisers disappeared so you dont have to worry about Dakka, between google ads, DCMs and indie gaming companies we are well covered to the point of being able to meet expenses. We are US based (much stronger freedom of speech rules), have plenty of legal options including pro-bono if it came down to it and are structured in a way that will allow us to avoid any repercussions of direct action if it came down to it. Saying that, we always action C&Ds from GW and try to obey the spirit of the rules they set because there are other sites who are worried about being rumour sites whereas we just want a place for people to enjoy their hobby. As such, we've always had a respectable relationship with GW and dont feel that we have anything to fear. If GW want to kill online interest in their products then we are happy to let them as there are plenty of other good companies out there making good products that we equally enjoy as part of the hobby. Dakka's traffic continues to increase despite the GW slice of the traffic pie decreasing.


That's great to hear about dakka and it's relative independence from the market leader. I can't say I'm surprised about the GW slice of the pie decreasing; they lost my miniscule portion of a single percentage point two years ago and I haven't regretted it since. I still play their games as my go-to backup game system when I can't find an opponent of what I actually want to play but I don't new models anymore. The vast majority of my 40k spending in the sig is from buying the recent rapid fire new codex books for previously somewhat neglected armies, main rule book, and previously FFG Deathwatch books (which I sold off since).

I hope BOW will continue their 40K coverage for their fans/subscribers that want it but I personally go to their channel to get the scoop for other smaller games (like Infinity, Mercs, etc). I hope the relative proportion of those indie games outside of the "Big 2" (warhammer, warmahordes) increases.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 18:28:25


Post by: Imposter101


Why do GW want to destroy their own fanbase's anticipation for new products?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 18:44:50


Post by: nkelsch


 Imposter101 wrote:
Why do GW want to destroy their own fanbase's anticipation for new products?


They must believe it has no negative impact, and preventing 3rd parties from making alternative models by not seeing designs until GW already has models on the market is their goal.

I mean honestly, they have trained us to basically be so starved for rumors, it actually makes us report them even more and faster, and by time everyone sees them we are almost a week or two from when we can actually buy them, which taps in to impulse buys and prevents people from rationalizing purchases or putting off purchases for a model which might come 6 months from now.

If they feel it works, then why should they stop? It has been a while they have been locking down previews and doing the 'your eyes to our shelves in 2 weeks' model and it doesn't seem to be hurting them to the point that they have stopped. If Anything, it seems to have helped, at least at the local GW store.

If you don't like it, don't buy from them. If you are a FLGS who doesn't like it, don't sell their products. If you don't like getting C&Ds, then don't report or advertise their products.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 19:05:20


Post by: Crablezworth


nkelsch wrote:
 Imposter101 wrote:
Why do GW want to destroy their own fanbase's anticipation for new products?


They must believe it has no negative impact, and preventing 3rd parties from making alternative models by not seeing designs until GW already has models on the market is their goal.

I mean honestly, they have trained us to basically be so starved for rumors, it actually makes us report them even more and faster, and by time everyone sees them we are almost a week or two from when we can actually buy them, which taps in to impulse buys and prevents people from rationalizing purchases or putting off purchases for a model which might come 6 months from now.

If they feel it works, then why should they stop? It has been a while they have been locking down previews and doing the 'your eyes to our shelves in 2 weeks' model and it doesn't seem to be hurting them to the point that they have stopped. If Anything, it seems to have helped, at least at the local GW store.

If you don't like it, don't buy from them. If you are a FLGS who doesn't like it, don't sell their products. If you don't like getting C&Ds, then don't report or advertise their products.


I beat my wife all the time but she keeps coming back to me, I must be doing something right. Oh, I also have a rock that keeps tigers away, I mean, I don't see any tigers around do you?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 19:21:12


Post by: nkelsch


 Crablezworth wrote:


I beat my wife all the time but she keeps coming back to me, I must be doing something right. Oh, I also have a rock that keeps tigers away, I mean, I don't see any tigers around do you?


That is nice and all, but GW has a metric that is based upon sales... not intangibles like shooing tigers and wife-love.

Boils down to if they are still selling product to the levels they expect, then why stop? It is their product and their company, if you feel they are losing sales and could be 'MORE' successful' without these polices, then you can run your own company on your own business model and make your own money. Armchair businessmen trying to make absolute statements on how companies should risk their money and business with no risk to them is pointless, especially when they lack the data to make those calls.

The only reason people are upset is because they are addicted to GW and will continue to hand over their money hand over fist to them. And for those who are like 'they are driving me to china' think about it... You are so addicted, that you are driven to break the law to obtain GW's product because you simply can't go without.

If you don't like it... buy something else, Sell something else, report on something else.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 19:25:01


Post by: Crablezworth


nkelsch wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:


I beat my wife all the time but she keeps coming back to me, I must be doing something right. Oh, I also have a rock that keeps tigers away, I mean, I don't see any tigers around do you?


That is nice and all, but GW has a metric that is based upon sales... not intangibles like shooing tigers and wife-love.

Boils down to if they are still selling product to the levels they expect, then why stop? It is their product and their company, if you feel they are losing sales and could be 'MORE' successful' without these polices, then you can run your own company on your own business model and make your own money. Armchair businessmen trying to make absolute statements on how companies should risk their money and business with no risk to them is pointless, especially when they lack the data to make those calls.

The only reason people are upset is because they are addicted to GW and will continue to hand over their money hand over fist to them. And for those who are like 'they are driving me to china' think about it... You are so addicted, that you are driven to break the law to obtain GW's product because you simply can't go without.

If you don't like it... buy something else, Sell something else, report on something else.


I would love to hear you in a WW2 war room "who are we to say hitler's a bad dude? Look at how well he's doing, he's got a sweet army and a lot of loyal people behind him, I mean who are we to judge? He seems like a real up and comer"


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 19:35:47


Post by: nkelsch


 Crablezworth wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:


I beat my wife all the time but she keeps coming back to me, I must be doing something right. Oh, I also have a rock that keeps tigers away, I mean, I don't see any tigers around do you?


That is nice and all, but GW has a metric that is based upon sales... not intangibles like shooing tigers and wife-love.

Boils down to if they are still selling product to the levels they expect, then why stop? It is their product and their company, if you feel they are losing sales and could be 'MORE' successful' without these polices, then you can run your own company on your own business model and make your own money. Armchair businessmen trying to make absolute statements on how companies should risk their money and business with no risk to them is pointless, especially when they lack the data to make those calls.

The only reason people are upset is because they are addicted to GW and will continue to hand over their money hand over fist to them. And for those who are like 'they are driving me to china' think about it... You are so addicted, that you are driven to break the law to obtain GW's product because you simply can't go without.

If you don't like it... buy something else, Sell something else, report on something else.


I would love to hear you in a WW2 war room "who are we to say hitler's a bad dude? Look at how well he's doing, he's got a sweet army and a lot of loyal people behind him, I mean who are we to judge? He seems like a real up and comer"


Congrats on worthlessing Godwinning a thread. You really contribute well with that.

A business has every choice to run itself into the ground or have policies someone doesn't like if they feel it makes them successful. They are not anywhere close to genociding millions of people by not telling you 6 months in advanced about a new dark elder transport.

And relying on Impulse buying habits is a valid business model which is one of the 'we not sharing yet... oh wait here it is!, BUY BUYBUY!' things they are doing.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 20:05:09


Post by: Grimtuff


That wasn't godwinning. Where exactly did he compare you to Hitler or the Nazis?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 20:14:39


Post by: nkelsch


 Grimtuff wrote:
That wasn't godwinning. Where exactly did he compare you to Hitler or the Nazis?


Running a successful or unsuccessful business can hardly be compared to a world leader declaring war on other countries and committing genocide against millions of people.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

So he compared not getting upset over a company possibly mismanaging its marketing which may or may not be profitable or successful to supporting Nazi Germany and Genocide which is absurd and a perfect example of Godwin's law.



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 20:22:47


Post by: TheSecretSquig


So how long before Dakka recieves a GW Legal letter instructing you to close down any thread giving GW information before its officially released?

Why? Because that's where this is heading.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 20:37:00


Post by: Azreal13


nkelsch wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
That wasn't godwinning. Where exactly did he compare you to Hitler or the Nazis?


Running a successful or unsuccessful business can hardly be compared to a world leader declaring war on other countries and committing genocide against millions of people.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

So he compared not getting upset over a company possibly mismanaging its marketing which may or may not be profitable or successful to supporting Nazi Germany and Genocide which is absurd and a perfect example of Godwin's law.



Actually, I'd say he was comparing you to Neville Chamberlain, but meh....


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 20:46:56


Post by: nkelsch


 azreal13 wrote:


Actually, I'd say he was comparing you to Neville Chamberlain, but meh....


Yes, it is perfectly reasonable that people would feel exactly the same about an inconsequential business marketing campaigns as he would in regards to seeing a country and its leader commit genocide and kill millions. They have so much in common in seriousness and degree of scope. By doing so you either drastically over justify how serious buying toy miniatures are or trivialize mass murder. Valid comparions because GW's marketing and trade partner rules are exactly like Genocide.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 20:52:43


Post by: d-usa


This thread has gone stupid...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 21:13:29


Post by: Azreal13


nkelsch wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:


Actually, I'd say he was comparing you to Neville Chamberlain, but meh....


Yes, it is perfectly reasonable that people would feel exactly the same about an inconsequential business marketing campaigns as he would in regards to seeing a country and its leader commit genocide and kill millions. They have so much in common in seriousness and degree of scope. By doing so you either drastically over justify how serious buying toy miniatures are or trivialize mass murder. Valid comparions because GW's marketing and trade partner rules are exactly like Genocide.


If you want to go hyperbolic speed on it, yes, you could say that.

I'm just saying that comparing your post to a historical figure who also completely failed to comprehend the ramifications of another parties actions is, at least, on the same curve.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 22:12:07


Post by: insaniak


nkelsch wrote:

. At least when GW does release a product and announce it, all you really need to assure your customers is 'you carry that product, please buy from me.'

...if GW actually let me stock that product, and if they actually send me any for the release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipstream wrote:

A bit cynical I know but there have been plenty of independents moaning about the latest nonsense from GW yet they are quite happy to accept it because they know the stuff will sell; ...

Accepting GW's ridiculous trade policies because you need to pay the rent does not automatically mean being happy about it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 23:41:03


Post by: Kroothawk


Imposter101 wrote:Why do GW want to destroy their own fanbase's anticipation for new products?

GW tradition
Slipstream wrote:A bit cynical I know but there have been plenty of independents moaning about the latest nonsense from GW yet they are quite happy to accept it because they know the stuff will sell

It is a fact that GW sells less and less products (barely keeping revenue on inflation level) and that other companies sell more and more. GW is not able or willing to discuss anything, so independents follow their plan B and prepare for GW's decline.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/05 23:55:31


Post by: Miguelsan


 insaniak wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

. At least when GW does release a product and announce it, all you really need to assure your customers is 'you carry that product, please buy from me.'

...if GW actually let me stock that product, and if they actually send me any for the release.


Here in Japan some of the player crowd at Nagoya had some trouble with the local independent shop before the summer when suddenly all the orders were delayed. After some miscommunication issues we found out that he had been unable to fulfill the orders because GW did no longer considered him a partner (or whatever term they use here) and had cut his ability to order at a discount. Suffice to say that he returned the money but his credibility took a hit and people were not happy.

Considering that outside Tokyo there are no GW stores and that if this trend continues the few independents will drop GW at this rate, how does GW plan to keep their games alive in Japan with 0% advertising and a hostile veteran player base?

M.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 02:59:26


Post by: jonolikespie


 Miguelsan wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

. At least when GW does release a product and announce it, all you really need to assure your customers is 'you carry that product, please buy from me.'

...if GW actually let me stock that product, and if they actually send me any for the release.


Here in Japan some of the player crowd at Nagoya had some trouble with the local independent shop before the summer when suddenly all the orders were delayed. After some miscommunication issues we found out that he had been unable to fulfill the orders because GW did no longer considered him a partner (or whatever term they use here) and had cut his ability to order at a discount. Suffice to say that he returned the money but his credibility took a hit and people were not happy.

Considering that outside Tokyo there are no GW stores and that if this trend continues the few independents will drop GW at this rate, how does GW plan to keep their games alive in Japan with 0% advertising and a hostile veteran player base?

M.


The same way they expect to keep their games alive everywhere else. They don't see a problem with anything they are doing.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 04:37:59


Post by: Azazelx


 Kelly502 wrote:
Ok, folk can bash GW but I can't say I'm getting rid of some stuff that's worthless to me? Alrighty then.. Call me a troll and give me a bridge.


In the context in which you used it, you're clearly trolling. The eyelid batting doesn't change anything.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 05:07:32


Post by: Piston Honda


 Soteks Prophet wrote:
GW's new release policy:

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


it's like Japanese porn.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 07:23:05


Post by: Herzlos


 Kanluwen wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Essentially GW wishes all the coverage about them to pass through them and nobody else, they want absolute control on how they might get depicted and they do not want their products showcased among somebody else.

The pig picture so frequently show here must be depicted as something worth paying money for, the systems must be depicted as the best thing one can hope to game with and the fluff the best it was ever written.

They do not want competition simple as that and somehow in their minds if they manage to have all other sites, blogs, news outlets that may not show them in the brightest of all colours or they will definitely not show them among other products die in the next minute it will all be better for them.


That's not true. Look at what the majority of these "issues" were about--things being leaked. There is a very big difference between "You can't talk about our stuff!" and "Stop revealing releases before we do".


Nah, the earlier GW letters wanted BOW to remove any video/image from their site containing any GW works*, and they asked them not to share an official GW video on youtube. They want BOW to shut down as they advertise other games

*Which is essentially a shutdown. There's probably a GW box in the background of every video on the site, and that's a lot of editing or removable.

That's not unreasonable though. Generally if you're running a website you don't simply embed someone else's material, you rehost it.


No, that would then be a copyright issue. In this case, BOW essentially added an official GW video to BOW's playlist, on the same host, using functionality provided by the host, in accordance with the terms of the host. It's almost like GW asked BOW not to link to the video.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 09:38:19


Post by: Bull0


 d-usa wrote:
This thread has gone stupid...


Quoted for truth


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 13:02:50


Post by: Agamemnon2


 Bull0 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
This thread has gone stupid...

Quoted for truth

I feel a bit sorry for starting it. Not sure giving the issue any more attention is doing the community any favors.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 13:53:49


Post by: NAVARRO


BOW as a news broadcaster and Wayland as one of the biggest UK traders is a very powerful combination because they can determine trends... I believe that is the main reason they got sniped by GW legal.

Maybe CMON is next.

We as hobby fans may find this too harsh and even bullying but thats how a certain type of company conducts business.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 14:01:16


Post by: jonolikespie


 NAVARRO wrote:
We as hobby fans may find this too harsh and even bullying but thats how a certain type of company conducts business.


Luckily those of us who don't like it can simply not buy from a company like that


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 14:07:30


Post by: cincydooley


 jonolikespie wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
We as hobby fans may find this too harsh and even bullying but thats how a certain type of company conducts business.


Luckily those of us who don't like it can simply not buy from a company like that


Well that's just shocking! Is this a new outcome? You're telling me you can simply choose not to buy from a company you don't like??!?

Mind. Blown.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 14:38:06


Post by: PsychoticStorm


I am more worried on the possible future implications in the industry, than if GW is driving itself to extinction.

They have proven themselves legally trigger happy against everybody and without legal standing, just using their bulk to eliminate any opposition they perceive.

Now they use any trick they can find including contracts to enforce their way.

BOW is not admitting really doing something wrong, his words are carefully chosen to not burn bridges and frankly GWs change of trading terms proves they could not find them doing anything wrong to sue them over, if they could they would.

The question is what next, at what point their paranoia, cause I do not think this is sane will move to a much more disruptive stage.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 18:47:14


Post by: Zweischneid


This kinda should go here

Spoiler:




GW will forever rue the day they lost Ronnie Renton....


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 20:03:39


Post by: Agamemnon2


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
The question is what next, at what point their paranoia, cause I do not think this is sane will move to a much more disruptive stage.

GW isn't Nazi Germany in 1938. Their demands are not escalating, and appeasing them would give us peace for our time. All the community would need to do to achieve this is stop allowing leaks being publicized, discussed or forwarded. Fulfil that criterion, never pubicly speculate about unreleased models and GW doesn't care what you do with your youtube channel.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 20:18:01


Post by: Azazelx


 Agamemnon2 wrote:
All the community would need to do to achieve this is stop allowing leaks being publicized, discussed or forwarded. Fulfil that criterion, never pubicly speculate about unreleased models and GW doesn't care what you do with your youtube channel.


That all sounds a bit "thought police", and probably not a legal ask either, in most of the world.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 20:20:34


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


we should help GW track down a leak in their own warehouse

then they'd have to stop supplying themselves for 6 months

and everybody would be happy!


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 20:48:43


Post by: Agamemnon2


 Azazelx wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
All the community would need to do to achieve this is stop allowing leaks being publicized, discussed or forwarded. Fulfil that criterion, never pubicly speculate about unreleased models and GW doesn't care what you do with your youtube channel.


That all sounds a bit "thought police", and probably not a legal ask either, in most of the world.

I'm not even saying it's desireable, but this idea that GW is steadily growing crazier and soon they will destroy all individual stockists, etc, is a bit silly. GW only wants to control product information, though granted their methodology for this has gone from hamfisted to demented, but in no way are they preparing for a purge.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 21:17:12


Post by: PsychoticStorm


 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
The question is what next, at what point their paranoia, cause I do not think this is sane will move to a much more disruptive stage.

GW isn't Nazi Germany in 1938. Their demands are not escalating, and appeasing them would give us peace for our time. All the community would need to do to achieve this is stop allowing leaks being publicized, discussed or forwarded. Fulfil that criterion, never pubicly speculate about unreleased models and GW doesn't care what you do with your youtube channel.


I view it in a more spherical way than just their demands in silencing the leaks their internal security is unable to find.

Using contract to press were law is not allowing them is unethical at best and does not fill me with optimism to the extends they intend to use in enforcing their agenda.

More importantly though, they show that their recent legal adventures have taught them nothing (well maybe except use their contracts instead of their layers to get what they want).

In reality, games workshop IP is something made from every trope existing under the sun and frankly I do not blame them, there is nothing original and too many awesome ideas to not use, the problem is they claim they own it and not only that they enforce this notion my threatening everybody using ideas they think its theirs, I would rather have the wargame hobby a place were a game designer or a company can name something in their product "Space Marine" without thinking twice because they know GW will send them CND letters regardless of their product having no connection to their IP whatsoever, likewise, I feel a massive amount of common ideas, shapes, tropes are in this minefield.

I would not mind GW doing their thing, succeeding or failing from their decisions, falling from been the industry leader or becoming again the edge of design and technology, as long as they did not negatively affect the hobby, as is they do affect it negatively, they put pressure on many companies, dictate to an extend what products can be released, for example the RH Lamasu and I really view them as a dark cloud casting a shade over the industry.

The BOW incident is not in isolation, does indicate an escalation in what they do the past years and illustrates the pressure they put in the industry at the expense of everybody else.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 21:50:09


Post by: Bull0


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
The question is what next, at what point their paranoia, cause I do not think this is sane will move to a much more disruptive stage.

GW isn't Nazi Germany in 1938. Their demands are not escalating, and appeasing them would give us peace for our time. All the community would need to do to achieve this is stop allowing leaks being publicized, discussed or forwarded. Fulfil that criterion, never pubicly speculate about unreleased models and GW doesn't care what you do with your youtube channel.


I view it in a more spherical way than just their demands in silencing the leaks their internal security is unable to find.

Using contract to press were law is not allowing them is unethical at best and does not fill me with optimism to the extends they intend to use in enforcing their agenda.

More importantly though, they show that their recent legal adventures have taught them nothing (well maybe except use their contracts instead of their layers to get what they want).

In reality, games workshop IP is something made from every trope existing under the sun and frankly I do not blame them, there is nothing original and too many awesome ideas to not use, the problem is they claim they own it and not only that they enforce this notion my threatening everybody using ideas they think its theirs, I would rather have the wargame hobby a place were a game designer or a company can name something in their product "Space Marine" without thinking twice because they know GW will send them CND letters regardless of their product having no connection to their IP whatsoever, likewise, I feel a massive amount of common ideas, shapes, tropes are in this minefield.

I would not mind GW doing their thing, succeeding or failing from their decisions, falling from been the industry leader or becoming again the edge of design and technology, as long as they did not negatively affect the hobby, as is they do affect it negatively, they put pressure on many companies, dictate to an extend what products can be released, for example the RH Lamasu and I really view them as a dark cloud casting a shade over the industry.

The BOW incident is not in isolation, does indicate an escalation in what they do the past years and illustrates the pressure they put in the industry at the expense of everybody else.


So, this is just a hate-in, now? What relevance does it have if you think GW's IP is "made from every trope existing under the sun" to them enforcing the rules of their trade account contracts? I went in a Games Workshop store once and it had a funny smell, so therefore I believe what they've just done is just the first step on the road to banning all models that aren't glued with citadel glue, etc


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 21:54:01


Post by: Azreal13


Because GW appear to have altered their trade terms in order to allow themselves to manipulate other companies in a way that the law wouldn't support?

I mean, how could anyone have an issue with that!



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 22:07:44


Post by: PsychoticStorm


"Just hate in"

Really? No my entire post had no hate in it and valid worries about the actions GW does the past years, were they can lead and how they affect and can affect the industry.

GW did not "enforce its trade terms", GW altered their trade terms in order to enforce what the law did not allowed them the past 5 years and then enforced them.

I find that at least unethical, I also I find suing companies and individuals for public domain stuff they claim its theirs, at least unethical.

Is this hate? I do no think so, but it is something that worries me.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 22:12:47


Post by: Dinamarth


The grasp tightens...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/06 22:50:34


Post by: loki old fart


Things can only get better



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 00:27:08


Post by: Crablezworth


They confiscated their equipment? That's such a dickish thing to do, that's low even for GW. Tom Kirby is mr. burns.






Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 00:49:49


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


What the actual feth.

What the actual gakking feth.

They had their camera and other equipment confiscated by GW security.

They paid good money to come to the Games Day, others were there using cameras and yet BoW had their stuff taken away?


I don't even.

Has Putin bought the company out or something? I eagerly await the hastily constructed defense of this action from the 'usual suspects' here on dakka, step forward ye shining knights of yore and spin this one into gold... I fething dare you.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 00:53:22


Post by: d-usa


Maybe they were going to photograph the bad food?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 00:53:39


Post by: xruslanx


Did they actually sell 40k or not? Because it's one thing to leak someone else's product in order to boost your own sales, it's another to randomly threaten a fansite.

GW clearly don't care about *leaks* so much, since dakka et al don't get death threats from GW HQ. But if you want to sell their products, you should respect their rules. That's just business. And leaking *their* new products, in order to generate traffic, is going to piss them off a fair bit.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 01:01:44


Post by: Crablezworth


xruslanx wrote:
Did they actually sell 40k or not? Because it's one thing to leak someone else's product in order to boost your own sales, it's another to randomly threaten a fansite.

GW clearly don't care about *leaks* so much, since dakka et al don't get death threats from GW HQ. But if you want to sell their products, you should respect their rules. That's just business. And leaking *their* new products, in order to generate traffic, is going to piss them off a fair bit.


Yeah commercial business hates free advertising, almost as much as they hate positive word of mouth, that can just kill a business...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 01:14:18


Post by: WarOne


If GW was not so insular, maybe they could see how their protection of their own IP can actually stunt their growth.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 01:18:47


Post by: xruslanx


 Crablezworth wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
Did they actually sell 40k or not? Because it's one thing to leak someone else's product in order to boost your own sales, it's another to randomly threaten a fansite.

GW clearly don't care about *leaks* so much, since dakka et al don't get death threats from GW HQ. But if you want to sell their products, you should respect their rules. That's just business. And leaking *their* new products, in order to generate traffic, is going to piss them off a fair bit.


Yeah commercial business hates free advertising, almost as much as they hate positive word of mouth, that can just kill a business...

I'm not saying that GW's policy of announcing things one week before they're released is good, but if it is there policy then retailers should abide by it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 01:44:46


Post by: d-usa


How did they know they were the BoW guys? Did they show up in full BoW gear, decked out like paparazzi?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 01:47:55


Post by: Azreal13


Well, I've never met him, but I'm pretty sure I'd recognise Warren, on the grounds he appears in videos on a very popular wargaming site.

I can't think its any more complex than that...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 03:18:50


Post by: heartserenade


 azreal13 wrote:
Because GW appear to have altered their trade terms in order to allow themselves to manipulate other companies in a way that the law wouldn't support?

I mean, how could anyone have an issue with that!



Perfect opportunity for a quote like this:




Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 03:43:51


Post by: Peregrine


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They had their camera and other equipment confiscated by GW security.

They paid good money to come to the Games Day, others were there using cameras and yet BoW had their stuff taken away?


Are property rights really so limited in the UK that private security (IOW, not the police) are allowed to confiscate property? Obviously they're allowed to throw BoW out of the event, but I don't see how confiscating their property isn't just setting themselves up for an easy lawsuit and criminal charges.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 03:54:34


Post by: d-usa


As long as they give it back when they exit the event it should be perfectly legal.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 04:27:05


Post by: hotsauceman1


So BOW will still have 40k stuff up? Im confused, What is the problem.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 04:50:28


Post by: Grot 6


 loki old fart wrote:
Things can only get better




Serious as a heart attack, that "Games Day" is lacking in people. that room for all get out is empty. I was remembering one up in Chitown that was darn near standing room only. THAT?! is paltry in the amount of people. THEN this icing on the gak cake?



How exactly did it come to this, by a bang or a whimper?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 05:11:55


Post by: Peregrine


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So BOW will still have 40k stuff up? Im confused, What is the problem.


The problem is they've been forced to cut ties to their retail partner because GW's new retail agreement includes "if you associate with anyone who talks about leaks we won't sell to you". GW are paranoid about anyone seeing information from non-GW sources and ruining the impulse buy, so this is just another round of bullying aimed at the people GW should be working with to promote their products. It's the kind of short-sighted policy that only happens if you have a company run by incompetent idiots who are completely out of touch with their customers.

Contrast this with how WOTC gives fansites new cards to preview before each MTG set is released and the problem is pretty obvious.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 05:28:12


Post by: Soteks Prophet


Hmm, they're seeming more sensible than when they had the other mental eejit babbling about rubbish and illegal tactics. They seem more coherent. Hmm.... might actually have to visit their webpage.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 07:45:14


Post by: Fenrir Kitsune


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Has Putin bought the company out or something? I eagerly await the hastily constructed defense of this action from the 'usual suspects' here on dakka, step forward ye shining knights of yore and spin this one into gold... I fething dare you.


I'm by no means a fan of GW, but it probably said something like "no recording equipment will be allowed into the venue" on the back of the ticket, bit like every concert ticket ever. Handily, I actually have a concert (not a GD as I don't go any more) ticket handy and it has this "restricted items, including the following are prohibited from being brought into the arena..............all forms of audio/video recording or transmitting devices"

Now, it depends on the security on the day but it is the gamble one takes when turning up to events with this sort of equipment. No big GW IS GOING TO GET YOU evil there.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 08:18:15


Post by: NoggintheNog


Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Has Putin bought the company out or something? I eagerly await the hastily constructed defense of this action from the 'usual suspects' here on dakka, step forward ye shining knights of yore and spin this one into gold... I fething dare you.


I'm by no means a fan of GW, but it probably said something like "no recording equipment will be allowed into the venue" on the back of the ticket, bit like every concert ticket ever. Handily, I actually have a concert (not a GD as I don't go any more) ticket handy and it has this "restricted items, including the following are prohibited from being brought into the arena..............all forms of audio/video recording or transmitting devices"

Now, it depends on the security on the day but it is the gamble one takes when turning up to events with this sort of equipment. No big GW IS GOING TO GET YOU evil there.


And yet others were taking videos and photos without any problem, as the hundreds of images that appeared here whilst the event was on testify. Do a youtube search for gamesday 2013 and you will find 50+ videos of it, indeed, in the clip warren shows, they even include one of the other youtubers right there (the guy whos Massacre Book they open), and yet only BoW (whom a lot of the designers know and even admit to watching) had their equipment confiscated.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 08:19:00


Post by: motyak


Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Has Putin bought the company out or something? I eagerly await the hastily constructed defense of this action from the 'usual suspects' here on dakka, step forward ye shining knights of yore and spin this one into gold... I fething dare you.


I'm by no means a fan of GW, but it probably said something like "no recording equipment will be allowed into the venue" on the back of the ticket, bit like every concert ticket ever. Handily, I actually have a concert (not a GD as I don't go any more) ticket handy and it has this "restricted items, including the following are prohibited from being brought into the arena..............all forms of audio/video recording or transmitting devices"

Now, it depends on the security on the day but it is the gamble one takes when turning up to events with this sort of equipment. No big GW IS GOING TO GET YOU evil there.


Probably depends if that is on the games day ticket or not then. Anyone who went got a ticket lying about?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 08:56:33


Post by: Zweischneid


 motyak wrote:


Probably depends if that is on the games day ticket or not then. Anyone who went got a ticket lying about?


Yes. Says as much.

Though it wasn't enforced on any other YouTubers, who in turn may also not qualify as being "professional".

Either way, the basic "right" was with GW.

Spoiler:




Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 08:59:28


Post by: Pacific


That doesn't make it the 'right' thing to do, though, and it doesn't take an Einstein to work out that it's massively counter-productive for all concerned.

In fact, working in one of the most tightly regulated/controlled industries in the world, I find all of this self importance (for a leisure activity company) so over the top as to be absolutely hilarious.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 09:03:44


Post by: Fenrir Kitsune


 Zweischneid wrote:
 motyak wrote:


Probably depends if that is on the games day ticket or not then. Anyone who went got a ticket lying about?


Yes. Says as much.

Though it wasn't enforced on any other YouTubers, who in turn may also not qualify as being "professional".

Either way, the basic "right" was with GW.

Spoiler:




I've had it shows where they've not let the bigger camera in, so I had to put it into a locker and go back to the venue, then seen people walking around with cameras the same size. I err on the side of caution now as its really down to the security person you get on the day.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 09:13:31


Post by: BEASTSOFWAR


Yeah, there is no great conspiracy theory to this, I just think its down to luck.

We waited for hours to make sure it wasn't going to be a hassle.

Unfortunately its down to the discretion of Security Guards, but that is the same at all event's I suppose.

We were just happy to film a report to try and give the vibe on what people were 'missing' out on.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 09:15:01


Post by: Fenrir Kitsune


 Pacific wrote:


In fact, working in one of the most tightly regulated/controlled industries in the world,.


GW staff, huh?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 09:21:26


Post by: Bull0


Don't like the contract, don't sign it. It seems really simple to me. It's like people think 3rd party sellers have some god-given right to sell GW stuff on their own terms. From what I've read here, they don't actually want to anyway and none of them can stand GW, so I don't really see what the problem is. Stop trading with them, make your money elsewhere, they'll soon learn and relax their terms anyway! It feels worryingly like an exercise in simultaneous cake ownership/consumption to me - you don't like the terms of their trade account contracts, but you're going to trade with them anyway and just bitch about it on the internet? Way to stick it to them!


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 11:01:56


Post by: Krinsath


 Bull0 wrote:
Don't like the contract, don't sign it. It seems really simple to me. It's like people think 3rd party sellers have some god-given right to sell GW stuff on their own terms. From what I've read here, they don't actually want to anyway and none of them can stand GW, so I don't really see what the problem is. Stop trading with them, make your money elsewhere, they'll soon learn and relax their terms anyway! It feels worryingly like an exercise in simultaneous cake ownership/consumption to me - you don't like the terms of their trade account contracts, but you're going to trade with them anyway and just bitch about it on the internet? Way to stick it to them!


That's the thing; BoW never had a contract of any kind with GW. They were partnered with Wayland and that was who GW targeted. BoW formally severed that connection to protect Wayland. If BoW hadn't separated and they then ever got a scoop and published it, GW would blame Wayland and restricted their trade account whether Wayland had anything to do with it or not. This in turn would reportedly cripple Wayland and cost many people their jobs in all likelihood. Since they have no intention of NOT reporting on GW (and I suspect GW's plan was that Wayland would push them into compliance with what GW wanted), they've broken ties and cut off their access to the financial and spacial resources Wayland provided.

So the message GW is sending is your trade account can have no visible contact or support with sites that post leaks about GW. When their current tack fails, who's to say they won't broaden the definition of affiliation to include advertising on those sites? Based on their escalating actions to date I can't say that won't be in next year's trade agreement. The question then becomes "how far is a company willing to go to ensure that customers interested in their products cannot find out anything about new products?"


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 11:44:08


Post by: Bull0


Yes, I know Wayland had the contract and not BoW. You can't do something because of your contract but you can form a quite formal and promoted partnership with another body who can and do it anyway? I don't really think that's cricket.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 13:27:27


Post by: Krinsath


 Bull0 wrote:
Yes, I know Wayland had the contract and not BoW. You can't do something because of your contract but you can form a quite formal and promoted partnership with another body who can and do it anyway? I don't really think that's cricket.


More along the lines of "when the partnership was formed there were no such terms"; GW changed them to target such sites this past year probably because they realized they could. Now, you can side with GW that clearly Wayland was funneling leaks to BoW (which BoW says they were not, nor have I seen any retailers who are any better informed than the rumormongers on Dakka and Warseer) or you can say that GW knew they couldn't target BoW directly and changed the terms hoping to torpedo them another way. Doesn't really matter, because while it might not be entirely upright, as you say there's nothing directly illegal about it.

However, since that tactic has clearly failed as BoW is not towing the line, what is the next move in GW's war against consumers knowing what GW is doing? That's the real concern in all of this for me. There's a touch of paranoia in there, but given the lengths GW has already gone to so far I feel it's not entirely unjustified either.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 13:32:55


Post by: Bull0


I see the whole thing as motivated by stopping Wayland from using leaks to promote their own preorders and thus cannibalize Games Workshop's preorders. I don't really think it's about going to war with consumers, to be honest, although I can see how that's a side-effect. I'm not taking sides, but I can see why GW are doing what they're doing.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 13:54:47


Post by: Krinsath


 Bull0 wrote:
I see the whole thing as motivated by stopping Wayland from using leaks to promote their own preorders and thus cannibalize Games Workshop's preorders. I don't really think it's about going to war with consumers, to be honest, although I can see how that's a side-effect. I'm not taking sides, but I can see why GW are doing what they're doing.


Except the leaks provided by BoW that has GW up in arms wouldn't drive sales to Wayland because they come out far too early to be of any benefit to Wayland. The Stormtalon and Dakkajet were leaked in early May (May 3rd, 2012 to be exact), while several weeks would pass before preorders could have gone up since GW didn't acknowledge the existence of them until the WD came out at the end of that month. Price lists would not have gone out, so Wayland would have had to run the risk of putting up pre-orders for something that may or may not have been shipped at a price point that they may or may not have known (and that GW could easily change since there was nothing official out).

This is entirely about message control because GW seems to think they're making something other than toy soldiers and that they need to be draconian with what people see because sales numbers say they should. It's a sign that they view the communication channels most companies embrace with fear and contempt; as something to be controlled with an iron fist instead of leveraged like every other company in most every other industry does. Why they do these things would no doubt make an interesting doctoral thesis for a business or psychology student, but that's what it boils down to at the end of the day.

It's their right to act this way, but the sooner they realize that replacing their marketing department with their legal department was not in their best interest the better it will be for the consumers and themselves.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 14:56:15


Post by: DarthOvious


I am not going to argue right or wrong here, but I think there are a lot of companies out there who don't like their pre-releases being leaked all over the internet. I suppose we could argue about the way in which GW is implementing it but GW have decided their current course and thats up to them to decide. A good example of what I am talking about is the leak of the Sony Ericsson Xperia Z1.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/09/sonys-mobile-teams-anti-leaks-poster-campaign-leaks/

The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

Some people do use alternatives sometimes to represent the models in their army so it is not unthinkable that this could result in a loss of sales. I am not saying that it does, but I am just saying its not an unreasonable claim to make.

However much can be said that GW should just focus more on stopping leaks from their company to begin with. It could also be argued if this is a realistic thing for GW to accomplish considering that their stuff gets playtested in advance before release. Perhaps they should change their playtesting policy instead to insure less leaks in the future. Many things can be argued here.



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 14:58:40


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 DarthOvious wrote:
I am not going to argue right or wrong here, but I think there are a lot of companies out there who don't like their pre-releases being leaked all over the internet. I suppose we could argue about the way in which GW is implementing it but GW have decided their current course and thats up to them to decide. A good example of what I am talking about is the leak of the Sony Ericsson Xperia Z1.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/09/sonys-mobile-teams-anti-leaks-poster-campaign-leaks/

The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

Some people do use alternatives sometimes to represent the models in their army so it is not unthinkable that this could result in a loss of sales. I am not saying that it does, but I am just saying its not an unreasonable claim to make.

However much can be said that GW should just focus more on stopping leaks from their company to begin with. It could also be argued if this is a realistic thing for GW to accomplish considering that their stuff gets playtested in advance before release. Perhaps they should change their playtesting policy instead to insure less leaks in the future. Many things can be argued here.




Fair, point, but in GW's case regarding leaks, we're talking about a couple of weeks in most instances. It's not as though a rival is going to rush out a similar line of miniatures just to undercut GW. Quite frankly, the more I read about GW's approach to shop, traders, and fans, the more glad I am that I jumped ship for other games systems.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 15:05:15


Post by: warboss


Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Has Putin bought the company out or something? I eagerly await the hastily constructed defense of this action from the 'usual suspects' here on dakka, step forward ye shining knights of yore and spin this one into gold... I fething dare you.


I'm by no means a fan of GW, but it probably said something like "no recording equipment will be allowed into the venue" on the back of the ticket, bit like every concert ticket ever. Handily, I actually have a concert (not a GD as I don't go any more) ticket handy and it has this "restricted items, including the following are prohibited from being brought into the arena..............all forms of audio/video recording or transmitting devices"

Now, it depends on the security on the day but it is the gamble one takes when turning up to events with this sort of equipment. No big GW IS GOING TO GET YOU evil there.


You have a point if it is universally enforced. Once the organization starts selectively enforcing it, any legitimacy of the policy is thrown to the wayside. Would you find it fair if the mods handed you a warning every time you started a sentence with the letter "C" but others could do so in the same thread without reprecussion? That's the level of ridiculousness we're talking about with confiscating BOW's cameras but letting other shutterbugs walk around without issues.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 15:31:28


Post by: DarthOvious


 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Fair, point, but in GW's case regarding leaks, we're talking about a couple of weeks in most instances. It's not as though a rival is going to rush out a similar line of miniatures just to undercut GW. Quite frankly, the more I read about GW's approach to shop, traders, and fans, the more glad I am that I jumped ship for other games systems.


Usually it is just a few weeks, but sometimes you do gets things earlier than that in the rumour world. Dakka for instance has an Imperial Guard rumours list just now and they are not getting released until next year. Of course its not really clear whether these rumours are acurate or not yet but from a GW point of view if some of them were acurate it would be a worry for them.

Its also not just the idea of a competitor rushing things out to undercut GW but more along the lines of the time that GW gets over their competitors when releasing things. Sure if there are leaks a few weeks earlier in regards to one of their releases then a competitor will not be able to beat them to release, but its a few weeks that GW would have had more with their advantage on the market. As soon as their competitors release counter models, thats when GW lose sales because there is now more a selection to choose from rather than just buying their model.

Of course there are more ways to lose sales than just losing an advantage on the market. Buisness practices also have an effect and some people in this thread have displayed a distaste to some of GWs buisness practices. However this up to GW to decide whats more important to them. Protecting their IP or making consumers happy.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 16:15:18


Post by: rich1231


 Krinsath wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
Yes, I know Wayland had the contract and not BoW. You can't do something because of your contract but you can form a quite formal and promoted partnership with another body who can and do it anyway? I don't really think that's cricket.


More along the lines of "when the partnership was formed there were no such terms"; GW changed them to target such sites this past year probably because they realized they could. Now, you can side with GW that clearly Wayland was funneling leaks to BoW (which BoW says they were not, nor have I seen any retailers who are any better informed than the rumormongers on Dakka and Warseer) or you can say that GW knew they couldn't target BoW directly and changed the terms hoping to torpedo them another way. Doesn't really matter, because while it might not be entirely upright, as you say there's nothing directly illegal about it.

However, since that tactic has clearly failed as BoW is not towing the line, what is the next move in GW's war against consumers knowing what GW is doing? That's the real concern in all of this for me. There's a touch of paranoia in there, but given the lengths GW has already gone to so far I feel it's not entirely unjustified either.


Just to clarify that we (Wayland) have never in anyway whatsoever leaked product information. We as a retailer of GW products are pretty much the last people on earth to hear about GW product information and their launch. The forums etc are far better informed about what is and isn't coming out.

Anyone that had looked at BOW over the last few years would be hard pushed to find any conclusion that their coverage of GW products and advanced information has done anything but diminish. They reduced this out of respect to us at Wayland. To speculate that we were benefiting from advanced product information or that they benefited from information from us is just nonsense.

There have been other terms changes that amazingly seem to target individual retailers over the last few years, and other activities which would stun the community. It is saddening to see it happening.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 16:37:07


Post by: Azreal13


Rich, I appreciate that you can't really speak freely in a public forum like this, but given your somewhat broader view of things what do you feel would be the best way the community and/or the independent retailers could affect change?

I do acknowledge those who are effectively arguing "their ball, their game" but things seem to just be getting progressively further and further out of hand, I worked in independent mobile phone retail for years, and while the networks weren't above pulling a fast one to encourage sales from them directly (substantially reducing their acquisition costs per customer) they never pulled gak like this!


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:00:56


Post by: PsychoticStorm


I feel GW not only uses her bulk and place as the biggest company within the industry improperly to enforce their capricious ways to everybody, usually giving the short end to the people that made them and make them who they are.

GW views first and foremost that everybody else is "leeching" their rightful gains, not selling their products, not distributing them where they would never be, not reporting on them and making them more visible, no they think they are using their hard work to gain money, stealing them from the gains that should be their.

So no online shops where they can enforce it, because how dare they use their artwork to sell their products, restricted zones of trade because how dare the customers pay what they think is reasonable instead of what they want them to pay a big drive of ever increasing important models at direct only because yes they should be getting all the money, not the retailers or game stores and now even more imaginative contracts to shut the press, because they do not like anybody talk about them when its not them talking.

It was out of hand before and its worse now, after the latest imaginative contracts that essentially enforce what the law prevents, freedom of press, one can only ask what next?

And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:05:45


Post by: pretre


Interesting. Also, from BOW's own account (in the OP, I haven't read all 7 pages), GW hasn't gone after them, but this is just simply fallout from the June Trade term update.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:09:52


Post by: Azreal13


 pretre wrote:
Interesting. Also, from BOW's own account (in the OP, I haven't read all 7 pages), GW hasn't gone after them, but this is just simply fallout from the June Trade term update.


Which, it is heavily implied, was designed to target the relationship between BoW and Wayland.

One could never prove that, of course, but the timing is suspiciously convenient at best.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:15:44


Post by: rich1231


 azreal13 wrote:
Rich, I appreciate that you can't really speak freely in a public forum like this, but given your somewhat broader view of things what do you feel would be the best way the community and/or the independent retailers could affect change?

I do acknowledge those who are effectively arguing "their ball, their game" but things seem to just be getting progressively further and further out of hand, I worked in independent mobile phone retail for years, and while the networks weren't above pulling a fast one to encourage sales from them directly (substantially reducing their acquisition costs per customer) they never pulled gak like this!


Please forgive my lack of frankness.


We have and continue to seek open and frank discussions with all suppliers, however you might expect our view of certain entities to be colored but as an an example, in a meeting over 4 years ago, our plans being frankly shared in a meeting.. only to find those exact plans specifically deemed against the new trade terms released shortly after. That's only one of many items that if were shared, would stun the community. However we continue to seek reasonable dialogue with everyone.

We have with open arms approached other retailers in the past, including the other major retailer in the UK, that is now no more, to stand together and seek discussions with a certain Dominant supplier in the industry. No one was really interested. Everyone is too paranoid about the "competition". Which is fine, we operate as a professional business, we take proper advice we were willing to share it.. Pretty much everyone is too scared of upsetting the cart and are happy to see the market manipulated whilst they point the finger at the internet for their lack of sales.

The consumer is losing out and being forced to pay higher prices than a proper market should. Their choice is being reduced. We don't think that's a good thing.

Competition isn't about manipulating a market. Competition should be about putting your products alongside others and the consumer making a choice to choose yours because they think its better and is of value, that is competition. I think bodies such as the OFT in the UK agree with us.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:16:17


Post by: Bull0


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.


Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:20:33


Post by: Pacific


The fact that so many companies sell their products would seem to suggest otherwise.

Any other company behaved in the same way as GW, I can guarantee you that their products would rapidly disappear off the shelves; the fact that this hasn't happened in the case of GW is indicative of their size within the market place.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:23:16


Post by: Zweischneid


 Bull0 wrote:


Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.


Nobody said anybody is forced to trade with Games Workshop. There is still a need to call out bad corporate practices, whether or not you trade with the... whether or not anybody trades with them.

Even if they do their business entirely and 100% on their own. Bad behaviour deserves to be criticized.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:24:15


Post by: Bull0


Still not sure how that translates to "Forced to". Am I missing something? Are there no other companies whose goods you can sell? Surely the way to combat GW's unfavourable trade policies is to stop trading with them until they change?

*edit* My line about not being forced into trading was against the point that the idea of not signing the contract "doesn't hold ground". Yes it does, you can absolutely not sign a contract with Games Workshop if you don't like their trade account rules. Nobody is forcing you. That's all I meant.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:28:26


Post by: Azreal13


 Bull0 wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.


Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.


This argument is facile in the extreme.

You really suggest that any company that has built itself up over years or decades due, in part, to selling products from the largest commercial entity in the industry, can simply eliminate that element from their business because said entity has paranoid delusions and changes your relationship overnight?

Sure, a new company could base its financial projections and viability studies off information that didn't include GW, but a going concern doesn't have that freedom, certainly not in the short term, even if they could divorce themselves in the medium to long term.

GW have already precipitated the death of Maelstrom (even if mistakes were made by MG that compounded the situation) through exactly this sort of shenanigans, and will continue to pull this sort of nonsense for as long as people stand for it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:31:15


Post by: PhantomViper


rich1231 wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
Rich, I appreciate that you can't really speak freely in a public forum like this, but given your somewhat broader view of things what do you feel would be the best way the community and/or the independent retailers could affect change?

I do acknowledge those who are effectively arguing "their ball, their game" but things seem to just be getting progressively further and further out of hand, I worked in independent mobile phone retail for years, and while the networks weren't above pulling a fast one to encourage sales from them directly (substantially reducing their acquisition costs per customer) they never pulled gak like this!


Please forgive my lack of frankness.


We have and continue to seek open and frank discussions with all suppliers, however you might expect our view of certain entities to be colored but as an an example, in a meeting over 4 years ago, our plans being frankly shared in a meeting.. only to find those exact plans specifically deemed against the new trade terms released shortly after. That's only one of many items that if were shared, would stun the community. However we continue to seek reasonable dialogue with everyone.

We have with open arms approached other retailers in the past, including the other major retailer in the UK, that is now no more, to stand together and seek discussions with a certain Dominant supplier in the industry. No one was really interested. Everyone is too paranoid about the "competition". Which is fine, we operate as a professional business, we take proper advice we were willing to share it.. Pretty much everyone is too scared of upsetting the cart and are happy to see the market manipulated whilst they point the finger at the internet for their lack of sales.

The consumer is losing out and being forced to pay higher prices than a proper market should. Their choice is being reduced. We don't think that's a good thing.

Competition isn't about manipulating a market. Competition should be about putting your products alongside others and the consumer making a choice to choose yours because they think its better and is of value, that is competition. I think bodies such as the OFT in the UK agree with us.


I have no idea of the costs involved in this, but have you guys thought about sending those GW legal letters and the new trade agreement to the ECJ? Having read it, I find that a few of the clauses in it are probably breaking the Article 101 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, particularly section 1(e):

(e) make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:32:33


Post by: Azreal13


rich1231 wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
Rich, I appreciate that you can't really speak freely in a public forum like this, but given your somewhat broader view of things what do you feel would be the best way the community and/or the independent retailers could affect change?

I do acknowledge those who are effectively arguing "their ball, their game" but things seem to just be getting progressively further and further out of hand, I worked in independent mobile phone retail for years, and while the networks weren't above pulling a fast one to encourage sales from them directly (substantially reducing their acquisition costs per customer) they never pulled gak like this!


Please forgive my lack of frankness.


We have and continue to seek open and frank discussions with all suppliers, however you might expect our view of certain entities to be colored but as an an example, in a meeting over 4 years ago, our plans being frankly shared in a meeting.. only to find those exact plans specifically deemed against the new trade terms released shortly after. That's only one of many items that if were shared, would stun the community. However we continue to seek reasonable dialogue with everyone.

We have with open arms approached other retailers in the past, including the other major retailer in the UK, that is now no more, to stand together and seek discussions with a certain Dominant supplier in the industry. No one was really interested. Everyone is too paranoid about the "competition". Which is fine, we operate as a professional business, we take proper advice we were willing to share it.. Pretty much everyone is too scared of upsetting the cart and are happy to see the market manipulated whilst they point the finger at the internet for their lack of sales.

The consumer is losing out and being forced to pay higher prices than a proper market should. Their choice is being reduced. We don't think that's a good thing.

Competition isn't about manipulating a market. Competition should be about putting your products alongside others and the consumer making a choice to choose yours because they think its better and is of value, that is competition. I think bodies such as the OFT in the UK agree with us.


I think you've said what you wanted, frankness be damned!

I guess until someone is willing to be Spartacus, or the dominant supplier really goofs and does something that allows some sort of push back, we will have to try and keep consumers informed and hope enough care enough to vote with their ££££


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:47:15


Post by: DarthOvious


I think GWs main problem is their overheads. They have overheads that other companies don't necessarily have. They provide brick and mortar stores and a table space to play on. They also have design costs and technology costs that other companies may not have. No offence to Wayland Games here and I am not having a dig at them, but they don't have those overheads. They don't need to invest in shops to provide gaming spaces and they don't have to invest money into technology for future products. That's why they are able to undercut GW by 20% in the first place and also why they can undercut your FLGS by 10%. This is the reason why internet stores like them have the cheapest prices.

Once again, not having a dig here, its their perogative to be competitive in order to make money. They have a business too. However its things like this that hurt GW financially and I believe its one of the reasons why they are doing what they do. I am only stating this because a lot of people here seem to be upset at GW for having overinflated prices and point to these internet sites as a true perspective of the models true cost. People however need to be aware that things are never that simple. GW could cut their costs if they became an internet selling site with no stores as well. However I guarantee you that you'll end up with a lot of unhappy people because they no longer have a local store to play at.

The independent stores might still be 10% cheaper than GW as well but they don't have any production costs to worry about and don't need to invest money in future design or technology. The point in my post is that there is no easy solution to this. I am not saying that anyone is right or wrong for what they do, all I am stating is that GW is pretty much caught between a rock and a hard place at this moment in time. Although GW might be the leading company for model production I still don't view them as the big heavyweights that some other people see them as. I wouldn't compare the money they make to any other big companies out there, I don't think they hold the financial clout that companies like O2, KFC, Marks & Spencers, etc, etc hold. In that way it means that protecting their profits is much more important because I just don't see them as a massive company and any loss in revenue hurts them quite a bit.

Please bear in mind I am not totally defending GW here. I am not defending their practices in general and saying that they are perfect. I'm sure there are lots of customers who don't support them for other reasons whether they be ethical reasons or otherwise. I just don't think that this particular issue is as clear cut as many people are portraying it to be.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:47:57


Post by: Bull0


 azreal13 wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.


Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.


This argument is facile in the extreme.

You really suggest that any company that has built itself up over years or decades due, in part, to selling products from the largest commercial entity in the industry, can simply eliminate that element from their business because said entity has paranoid delusions and changes your relationship overnight?

Sure, a new company could base its financial projections and viability studies off information that didn't include GW, but a going concern doesn't have that freedom, certainly not in the short term, even if they could divorce themselves in the medium to long term.

GW have already precipitated the death of Maelstrom (even if mistakes were made by MG that compounded the situation) through exactly this sort of shenanigans, and will continue to pull this sort of nonsense for as long as people stand for it.


Honestly? That's business. Until they're in violation of law (which they may well be! These contracts and the associated practices, such as the story about having frank planning discussions only to renew contracts with clauses that preclude those discussions, sound absolutely horrendous), it's on the retailers not to sign up, or not to renew if the new contracts are in their view unfair, or to seek relevant legal advice. If enough of them do it, that's GW blown, and they change tack. Instead, they're signing anyway, and complaining on the internet when the contracts are enforced, hoping that customers will "vote with their wallets" (how does not buying the independent retailers' stock help their cause, again?) and create the change they want to see but aren't able to create themselves. As is probably clear I don't really get it. I'm happy to be enlightened but so far haven't seen anything other than some moralising.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 17:50:21


Post by: DarthOvious


 Pacific wrote:
The fact that so many companies sell their products would seem to suggest otherwise.

Any other company behaved in the same way as GW, I can guarantee you that their products would rapidly disappear off the shelves; the fact that this hasn't happened in the case of GW is indicative of their size within the market place.


I would say its an indication that they are still making a profit from it none the less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 azreal13 wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.


Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.


This argument is facile in the extreme.

You really suggest that any company that has built itself up over years or decades due, in part, to selling products from the largest commercial entity in the industry, can simply eliminate that element from their business because said entity has paranoid delusions and changes your relationship overnight?

Sure, a new company could base its financial projections and viability studies off information that didn't include GW, but a going concern doesn't have that freedom, certainly not in the short term, even if they could divorce themselves in the medium to long term.

GW have already precipitated the death of Maelstrom (even if mistakes were made by MG that compounded the situation) through exactly this sort of shenanigans, and will continue to pull this sort of nonsense for as long as people stand for it.


Some people may be OK with it. Hence why they stand for it. Personally I just stand in the middle, I don't really care how companies run their contracts with each other. We can debate all day long whether GW should be allowed to have a say in how their products are sold but honestly I don't care. There are companies out there who use third world children to make clothes for them to sell on and nobody really cares about that despite the fact that I consider it unethical. I rather pay more attention to injustices like that rather than a company who lays down the law on how their own products should be sold on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhantomViper wrote:


I have no idea of the costs involved in this, but have you guys thought about sending those GW legal letters and the new trade agreement to the ECJ? Having read it, I find that a few of the clauses in it are probably breaking the Article 101 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, particularly section 1(e):

(e) make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.


If what you say is true then this sounds like more of a desperate act from GW. If they are willing to break the law in order to protect their assets then I would say that perhaps GW is completely stuffed and you might see them going under at some point in the future if they are unsuccessful.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 18:21:05


Post by: PsychoticStorm


I think the GW overhead are quite frankly overestimated, personally coming from a country that has no GW and will not have GW I feel their "involvement in spreading the hobby" is absolutely zero and that holds true to the majority of the globe, the local game stores on the other hand and clubs were available get the tough job doing that.

Actually in my opinion, the rest of the world and the non GW retailers pay in effect for their overheads since they pay more for GW products than GW pays to sell them in their stores.

My opinion still is that GW wants to control and or eliminate any perceived competition actual or not, by any means possible and mass everybody to their stores be it actual or virtual.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 18:25:38


Post by: NoggintheNog


 DarthOvious wrote:
I think GWs main problem is their overheads. They have overheads that other companies don't necessarily have. They provide brick and mortar stores and a table space to play on. They also have design costs and technology costs that other companies may not have. No offence to Wayland Games here and I am not having a dig at them, but they don't have those overheads. They don't need to invest in shops to provide gaming spaces and they don't have to invest money into technology for future products. That's why they are able to undercut GW by 20% in the first place and also why they can undercut your FLGS by 10%.


GW CHOOSE to use independents, so if they dont like losing the margin, the desicion is simple.

Of course, independents cover about 60% of all GW sales, so the idea this is all one way traffic is utter nonsense.

By the way, having been to wayland games , and been a customer of GW stores since they sold D&D, I'll let you in on a secret.

Its much easier to play a game at wayland than it is a current GW store.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 18:29:43


Post by: DarthOvious


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I think the GW overhead are quite frankly overestimated, personally coming from a country that has no GW and will not have GW I feel their "involvement in spreading the hobby" is absolutely zero and that holds true to the majority of the globe, the local game stores on the other hand and clubs were available get the tough job doing that.

Actually in my opinion, the rest of the world and the non GW retailers pay in effect for their overheads since they pay more for GW products than GW pays to sell them in their stores.

My opinion still is that GW wants to control and or eliminate any perceived competition actual or not, by any means possible and mass everybody to their stores be it actual or virtual.


You might perceive GW to be unethical in the things that they do and that's fine but to do the thing that you suggest they are doing would be stupid. If you think the rest of the stores do the hard work to sell their products and promote their hobby then why would GW want to eliminate the stores who do the hard work to sell their products on their behalf?

EDIT: Also just wanted to add that production costs and future technology costs would cover all their products that they sell across the globe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NoggintheNog wrote:
GW CHOOSE to use independents, so if they dont like losing the margin, the desicion is simple.


I understand that, but I think its a case of how the products get sold on afterwards.

Of course, independents cover about 60% of all GW sales, so the idea this is all one way traffic is utter nonsense.


Yes, they probably do.

By the way, having been to wayland games , and been a customer of GW stores since they sold D&D, I'll let you in on a secret.

Its much easier to play a game at wayland than it is a current GW store.


I'm sure that's the case for you but its not for me. I have two different GW stores I can play in. There is an independent store also but its not brilliant. Especially since they don't actually have any proper tables for 40K and focus more on MTG, etc.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 19:22:48


Post by: Bull0


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I think the GW overhead are quite frankly overestimated, personally coming from a country that has no GW and will not have GW I feel their "involvement in spreading the hobby" is absolutely zero and that holds true to the majority of the globe, the local game stores on the other hand and clubs were available get the tough job doing that.

Actually in my opinion, the rest of the world and the non GW retailers pay in effect for their overheads since they pay more for GW products than GW pays to sell them in their stores.



Two words: Design Studio.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 19:31:56


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Seriously you think their design studio is what recruits people in wargaming? not game stores that display games and sell them, that make them available to the potential customers for purchase, but the design studio?

I would really love to see the marvels of their design studio in a country that GW has no stores and the local game stores do not support them.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 19:40:27


Post by: Bull0


No, I think it's expensive and represents a significant part of GW's overheads. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 19:45:44


Post by: insaniak


 DarthOvious wrote:
The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

The thing is, while this certainly happens in other industries (yes, phone developers don't like their competitors seeing what features they are building into their new phones, so that other phones currently in development don't have those same features and more added in to trump them) this really doesn't apply to GW. GW's main competitors aren't even in the same genre. Privateer isn't going to decide to add flyers to their game just because they see that GW is working on one. Battlefront isn't suddenly going to rush out a 28mm scale scifi game with skinny, pointy eared aliens in it just because we see a blurry photo of Eldar models due out in a month's time.

Added to which, GW deny that they even have any competition. Competing minature companies just aren't on their radar.

They have stated publicly why they try to clamp down on rumours and advance showing of their product, and it's nothing to do with competitors stealing their thunder. It's because despite all rational evidence to the contrary (including sales from their own subsidiaries), they believe that not knowing that something is coming makes people more excited about it (and this more likely to buy it) when it is released.

It's lunacy, plain and simple.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 20:14:28


Post by: nkelsch


 insaniak wrote:
they believe that not knowing that something is coming makes people more excited about it (and this more likely to buy it) when it is released.

It's lunacy, plain and simple.


Besides the known issues with 3rd parties trying to get models to market before GW releases them... Apple can tell you the 'impulse buy' secrecy model works for them. You literally don't know there is a new device Wednesday and on Friday it is in stores ready to buy... IF YOU GET THERE IN TIME GOGOGOGO IPHONE!

Also, the whole 'sunday newspaper ad' is the exact same thing. They share that they have a 20$ blu ray player, but only have 3 of them, so when you get to the store, mind set on having the new release, chances are your impulse buy decision means even if the 20$ blu ray is out of stock, you will still buy a blu ray player that day.

Stores manipulate shoppers into buying stuff by removing the chance for critical thought from the purchase. GW's release model is just an example of this, and it does seem to impact some of their customers in this way.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 20:21:39


Post by: insaniak


nkelsch wrote:
Besides the known issues with 3rd parties trying to get models to market before GW releases them...

Well, yes, when GW releases a codex and then waits three years to release models for new units that everyone playing that army wants to use, at least one of the various garage companies out there will release an alternative.

There's a very easy solution that that problem.

And in fact, more transparancy from GW would have aleviated that somewhat... to take the obvious Thunderwolf example - if GW had actually stated at some point immediately after the codex was released that they were working on them, and had shown a green in progress, there are plenty of people who would have waited for the GW model rather than buying one of the 3rd party options that sprang up in the interim, particularly since a lot of the 3rd party options weren't as good as what GW eventually released.

They cut their own throat by keeping hush about the fact that Twolves were in development. They just released a unit entry, and gave no indication that a model would ever be released. It's no wonder that people went and bought from elsewhere.



Apple can tell you the 'impulse buy' secrecy model works for them.

Does it, though? Haven't the last few iPhone and iPad releases all been spoilered by several months?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 20:26:00


Post by: The Dwarf Wolf


So, please, why BoW keep advertising GW stuff? Do as the big company want and let them rot alone... GW is not about the hobby anymore, it is just a big company trying to make money on little kids. Why not show to those kids where they should spend their money?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 20:39:17


Post by: Brother Weasel


 insaniak wrote:

Well, yes, when GW releases a codex and then waits three years to release models for new units that everyone playing that army wants to use, at least one of the various garage companies out there will release an alternative.

There's a very easy solution that that problem.



They do solve that, by only adding new units they have models for. (i know it's new for GW, but that's what they are doing NOW)

GW doesn't publicly say they have competition, but they know that there are other companies who sell minis and table top war games, and people who make 3rd party parts for their minis or "alternative" versions of their minis for the purpose of playing their games. and that there are people who can 3d print and process faster then they can make their shipments. (see the centurion, people didn't like it, someone came out with a 3d mockup, before it was even out yet)

Mind you I'm not saying Anyone is right or wrong, and i sure as hell don't have any inside information on anything, but that's my conjuncture as to one possible reason. (could be they just don't want anyone to know)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
So, please, why BoW keep advertising GW stuff? Do as the big company want and let them rot alone... GW is not about the hobby anymore, it is just a big company trying to make money on little kids. Why not show to those kids where they should spend their money?


i'd guess that there is a large portion of thier hits that generate them money come from the GW side of what goes on (purly a guess, same reason that independents dont't just drop GW)


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 20:53:31


Post by: d-usa


 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
So, please, why BoW keep advertising GW stuff? Do as the big company want and let them rot alone... GW is not about the hobby anymore, it is just a big company trying to make money on little kids. Why not show to those kids where they should spend their money?


They make money from people signing up for premium plans on their site.

People sign up because they want to know more about certain games.

I am guessing that a large number sign up because they want to know more about GW games.

BoW doesn't get any money from GW. They get money from people wanting to know about GW stuff.

Quit covering GW = quit getting money from people who are only there because they want to see coverage of GW.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 22:14:23


Post by: Battlesong


 DarthOvious wrote:
I am not going to argue right or wrong here, but I think there are a lot of companies out there who don't like their pre-releases being leaked all over the internet. I suppose we could argue about the way in which GW is implementing it but GW have decided their current course and thats up to them to decide. A good example of what I am talking about is the leak of the Sony Ericsson Xperia Z1.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/09/sonys-mobile-teams-anti-leaks-poster-campaign-leaks/

The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

Some people do use alternatives sometimes to represent the models in their army so it is not unthinkable that this could result in a loss of sales. I am not saying that it does, but I am just saying its not an unreasonable claim to make.

However much can be said that GW should just focus more on stopping leaks from their company to begin with. It could also be argued if this is a realistic thing for GW to accomplish considering that their stuff gets playtested in advance before release. Perhaps they should change their playtesting policy instead to insure less leaks in the future. Many things can be argued here.


Don't even suggest that. Most likely if they think it's the playtesting method that's causing the leaks, they'll just stop playtesting altogether.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 22:25:29


Post by: Noir


 Battlesong wrote:


Don't even suggest that. Most likely if they think it's the playtesting method that's causing the leaks, they'll just stop playtesting altogether.


They already have, to playtest a game you need more then a hand full of guys at the office pushing models around a table for pictures.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 22:37:54


Post by: Azreal13


 Bull0 wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.


Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.


This argument is facile in the extreme.

You really suggest that any company that has built itself up over years or decades due, in part, to selling products from the largest commercial entity in the industry, can simply eliminate that element from their business because said entity has paranoid delusions and changes your relationship overnight?

Sure, a new company could base its financial projections and viability studies off information that didn't include GW, but a going concern doesn't have that freedom, certainly not in the short term, even if they could divorce themselves in the medium to long term.

GW have already precipitated the death of Maelstrom (even if mistakes were made by MG that compounded the situation) through exactly this sort of shenanigans, and will continue to pull this sort of nonsense for as long as people stand for it.


Honestly? That's business. Until they're in violation of law (which they may well be! These contracts and the associated practices, such as the story about having frank planning discussions only to renew contracts with clauses that preclude those discussions, sound absolutely horrendous), it's on the retailers not to sign up, or not to renew if the new contracts are in their view unfair, or to seek relevant legal advice. If enough of them do it, that's GW blown, and they change tack. Instead, they're signing anyway, and complaining on the internet when the contracts are enforced, hoping that customers will "vote with their wallets" (how does not buying the independent retailers' stock help their cause, again?) and create the change they want to see but aren't able to create themselves. As is probably clear I don't really get it. I'm happy to be enlightened but so far haven't seen anything other than some moralising.


It really isn't business. While there is an element which appear ready to crawl over the corpse of their grandmother to make an extra few pennies in the pound, the vast majority conduct themselves in a far more affable manner. Not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because any business positioned in the manufacturing, distribution or wholesale sector needs other businesses to buy its product in order to survive.

Now, GW are an exception to the standard model in that they have direct online and physical presences, which inevitably leads to some conflict of interests. This isn't a unique situation, but it is unusual. I do have fairly extensive experience in an industry where independent retailers compete directly in the marketplace with their suppliers direct channels, but in 12 years I've encountered nothing like the control that GW are trying to exert on their Indy partners.

It would be far more sensible to acknowledge that the independent channel appeals to, and reaches, a different sector of the customer base than their own stores, and adjust their offering through that channel accordingly, but no, they'd apparently beat them into submission or extinction than utilise them to their own advantage.

I've also run my own business where I made a decision to sign up to a franchise, because, in theory at least, it allowed me to offer a wider range of product, make a greater margin on my sales and provided a greater degree of admin support behind the scenes. On the surface, a no brainer decision, but as time went by, the franchise agreement was amended, reducing my freedoms to run my business as I saw fit while leaving me with all the financial risk. Most of these changes were within the existing agreement's remit, and the couple that required me to re-sign or terminate, well, it isn't as simple as "just say no" when your income and your ability to service your customer base is on the line, believe me. Any of this sound familiar?

Just because something is legal doesn't make it moral or ethical, and that is the real debate here (or though, as you rightly mention, there may be a suggestion it isn't even legal) and if people find it distasteful, well, I'm not surprised.

As for voting with their wallets? I'm sure most Indys wouldn't care if their GW stock started gathering dust, as long as their income was maintained from other sources, my understanding from speaking to most Indy retailers is that GW is considered a necessary evil by most, and have been a bear to deal with for years. If they were gaining enough sales from other systems and manufacturers that they could afford to drop or de-emphasise GW, I suspect many would do it with a sigh of relief.

While the retailers may eventually get their gak together and posse up, in the meantime, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour distasteful needs to take responsibility and withold their cash from GW. If enough share this view, then change will happen, if we really are just an insignificant minority shouting on the Internet, then that's capitalism.

One things for sure, if enough people really do say "no, I will not endorse this behaviour by rewarding you with my business" GW won't be able to bully, manipulate or litigate their way out of it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 22:43:16


Post by: Triszin


I have recently bought some new GW paint thinking it would be like their old stuff, wow even their paint is gak now. Its the same paint that you can buy at the crafts stores/walmart/target for a buck a bottle. I bought 6 paints only opened 3 and its all gak, doesnt mix with water cant do gak. Feels cheap smells cheap is gritty and fethed. I'm done, I was trying to finish my wolves with GW paint but feth it. To Vallejo paint and mantic/reaper minis for me.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 22:56:11


Post by: motyak


Triszin wrote:
I have recently bought some new GW paint thinking it would be like their old stuff, wow even their paint is gak now. Its the same paint that you can buy at the crafts stores/walmart/target for a buck a bottle. I bought 6 paints only opened 3 and its all gak, doesnt mix with water cant do gak. Feels cheap smells cheap is gritty and fethed. I'm done, I was trying to finish my wolves with GW paint but feth it. To Vallejo paint and mantic/reaper minis for me.


That's surprising, I've really liked some of their new paints. They've been useful when I wanted nice bright colours to offset more serious tones. Maybe you just had a bad batch?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 22:57:56


Post by: Azreal13


 motyak wrote:
Triszin wrote:
I have recently bought some new GW paint thinking it would be like their old stuff, wow even their paint is gak now. Its the same paint that you can buy at the crafts stores/walmart/target for a buck a bottle. I bought 6 paints only opened 3 and its all gak, doesnt mix with water cant do gak. Feels cheap smells cheap is gritty and fethed. I'm done, I was trying to finish my wolves with GW paint but feth it. To Vallejo paint and mantic/reaper minis for me.


That's surprising, I've really liked some of their new paints. They've been useful when I wanted nice bright colours to offset more serious tones. Maybe you just had a bad batch?


The dry paints are gak, but most everything else is ok. Difficult to make a case for Citadel over Vallejo or Reaper though, existing colour use or ubiquity aside.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:01:33


Post by: motyak


 azreal13 wrote:
 motyak wrote:
Triszin wrote:
I have recently bought some new GW paint thinking it would be like their old stuff, wow even their paint is gak now. Its the same paint that you can buy at the crafts stores/walmart/target for a buck a bottle. I bought 6 paints only opened 3 and its all gak, doesnt mix with water cant do gak. Feels cheap smells cheap is gritty and fethed. I'm done, I was trying to finish my wolves with GW paint but feth it. To Vallejo paint and mantic/reaper minis for me.


That's surprising, I've really liked some of their new paints. They've been useful when I wanted nice bright colours to offset more serious tones. Maybe you just had a bad batch?


The dry paints are gak, but most everything else is ok. Difficult to make a case for Citadel over Vallejo or Reaper though, existing colour use or ubiquity aside.


Ah right, I haven't tried their dry paints and other fancy kinds yet. I didn't realise he was referencing them.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:03:25


Post by: Azreal13


I don't think he was, just me!

The textures are ok, but most of my dry paints went rubbery and useless, but I can't say I was a fan previously.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:07:12


Post by: ender502


 insaniak wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

The thing is, while this certainly happens in other industries (yes, phone developers don't like their competitors seeing what features they are building into their new phones, so that other phones currently in development don't have those same features and more added in to trump them) this really doesn't apply to GW. GW's main competitors aren't even in the same genre. Privateer isn't going to decide to add flyers to their game just because they see that GW is working on one. Battlefront isn't suddenly going to rush out a 28mm scale scifi game with skinny, pointy eared aliens in it just because we see a blurry photo of Eldar models due out in a month's time.

Added to which, GW deny that they even have any competition. Competing minature companies just aren't on their radar.

They have stated publicly why they try to clamp down on rumours and advance showing of their product, and it's nothing to do with competitors stealing their thunder. It's because despite all rational evidence to the contrary (including sales from their own subsidiaries), they believe that not knowing that something is coming makes people more excited about it (and this more likely to buy it) when it is released.

It's lunacy, plain and simple.


Lunacy? Yes. But people still drink the koolaid and give it to their kids as well. The only way GW will change policy is if they see an actual drop in sales.

ender502


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:09:45


Post by: insaniak


Brother Weasel wrote:
They do solve that, by only adding new units they have models for. (i know it's new for GW, but that's what they are doing NOW)

Yes, it's new, and it took losing a lawsuit for them to realise that not releasing stuff that customers want will cause other people to release that stuff instead.

If GW had instead just told their customers that they were working on a Tervigon kit, and showed them WIP shots that would have shown how much better it was going to be than the CH conversion kit, how many fewer kits would CH have sold?


... and that there are people who can 3d print and process faster then they can make their shipments. (see the centurion, people didn't like it, someone came out with a 3d mockup, before it was even out yet)

Sure, a little garage operation can throw together a 3d render and upload it to Shapeways faster than GW can get models produced and out to stores. But realistically, how many is that little garage operation going to sell?

The alternate Centurion sculpt is not serious competition for GW. It's a drop in the pond. And it's a drop that GW could dry up by just not releasing crap models.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:13:48


Post by: Compel


To continue the off topic discussion... Just slightly. I've not painted for a couple of months. Every single one of my new paints has ended up separating into some water and a congealed blob of goo. So I need to go into every one with a tooth pick to mix them back into paint again.

Which works. Sort of. Ish. Maybe.

And even that doesn't help their 'Imperial Primer' paint. All I want to use it for is to cover over some bits my spray paint missed. But no. That's too hard.

Shades are fine if you paint GW style (base > shade > actual paint), but far too thick to actually use as proper washes.

Glazes, I still have no idea what they 'do'. And I've bought the paint guide.

The selection of red paints they have now is terrible. Khorne Red is NOT a dark red. It's barely a midtone in my mind.


My 8 year old GW paints? Completely fine.

-----------------

On topic, Wayland actually invests a great deal of cash back into the hobby. - Hence why they were working with Beasts of War in the first place, I imagine.

But also, Tabletop Nation is now probably the premier gaming hall in the UK outside of Warhammer World (if there's others like it, especially in the southwest, please tell me!). Especially since it seems that 'Eye of the Storm' couldn't survive Maelstroms death after all.

Dammit, am I talking myself into buying more X Wing toys from Wayland now?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:23:46


Post by: insaniak


 ender502 wrote:
Lunacy? Yes. But people still drink the koolaid and give it to their kids as well. The only way GW will change policy is if they see an actual drop in sales.

Except going by the last few financials, they're already seeing a drop in sales volumes... they're just making up for it with price increases and cost cutting.

So they're either handwaving the problem away, or they're thinking that sales would be worse if they were telling people what they were going to release next. Either one seems a little crazy.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:32:24


Post by: Triszin


 motyak wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 motyak wrote:
Triszin wrote:
I have recently bought some new GW paint thinking it would be like their old stuff, wow even their paint is gak now. Its the same paint that you can buy at the crafts stores/walmart/target for a buck a bottle. I bought 6 paints only opened 3 and its all gak, doesnt mix with water cant do gak. Feels cheap smells cheap is gritty and fethed. I'm done, I was trying to finish my wolves with GW paint but feth it. To Vallejo paint and mantic/reaper minis for me.


That's surprising, I've really liked some of their new paints. They've been useful when I wanted nice bright colours to offset more serious tones. Maybe you just had a bad batch?


The dry paints are gak, but most everything else is ok. Difficult to make a case for Citadel over Vallejo or Reaper though, existing colour use or ubiquity aside.


Ah right, I haven't tried their dry paints and other fancy kinds yet. I didn't realize he was referencing them.


I was referencing their new Layer paints, and the base paints. The layers do not mix correctly with water, it turns the paint into a wash. With the older (4+ years ago) the paint would mix great with water to create lighter shades that would still stick like paint. This new stuff when mixed just runs. Also my brother happened upon a rogue trader era box of GW citadel paint and Its all perfect didnt separate and is awesome to paint with.

I'll stop with the off topic, If i feel the need to talk/rant about it some more i will create a thread in general.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:51:14


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 Zweischneid wrote:
This kinda should go here

Spoiler:




GW will forever rue the day they lost Ronnie Renton....
You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

The Auld Grump


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/07 23:59:15


Post by: boyd


 insaniak wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

The thing is, while this certainly happens in other industries (yes, phone developers don't like their competitors seeing what features they are building into their new phones, so that other phones currently in development don't have those same features and more added in to trump them) this really doesn't apply to GW. GW's main competitors aren't even in the same genre. Privateer isn't going to decide to add flyers to their game just because they see that GW is working on one. Battlefront isn't suddenly going to rush out a 28mm scale scifi game with skinny, pointy eared aliens in it just because we see a blurry photo of Eldar models due out in a month's time.

Added to which, GW deny that they even have any competition. Competing minature companies just aren't on their radar.

They have stated publicly why they try to clamp down on rumours and advance showing of their product, and it's nothing to do with competitors stealing their thunder. It's because despite all rational evidence to the contrary (including sales from their own subsidiaries), they believe that not knowing that something is coming makes people more excited about it (and this more likely to buy it) when it is released.

It's lunacy, plain and simple.


I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up. GW releases something, you get pages of people calling it crap and if someone likes it, they are a fanboy (except if you're commenting on PP then you're not because everyone knows they are wine and cheese to GWs beer and pretzels). You see it time after time - the entire Mantic line of models for example (exception being their goblins, GWs don't have the same noses). After a while, there is no reason to cater to the denizens online. Their opinions don't matter as much because no matter what happens their commentary is negative. Why cater to someone who won't buy from you to begin with. The constant negativity is why GW stopped hanging out on portent.net back in the day. People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.

Yes there is some truth to GW not wanting to show the world their WIP but a couple of weeks wouldn't hurt their sales. To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models. Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better and I wanted scorpions and banshees but didn't like the second edition models. If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarthOvious wrote:
I am not going to argue right or wrong here, but I think there are a lot of companies out there who don't like their pre-releases being leaked all over the internet. I suppose we could argue about the way in which GW is implementing it but GW have decided their current course and thats up to them to decide. A good example of what I am talking about is the leak of the Sony Ericsson Xperia Z1.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/09/sonys-mobile-teams-anti-leaks-poster-campaign-leaks/

The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

Some people do use alternatives sometimes to represent the models in their army so it is not unthinkable that this could result in a loss of sales. I am not saying that it does, but I am just saying its not an unreasonable claim to make.

However much can be said that GW should just focus more on stopping leaks from their company to begin with. It could also be argued if this is a realistic thing for GW to accomplish considering that their stuff gets playtested in advance before release. Perhaps they should change their playtesting policy instead to insure less leaks in the future. Many things can be argued here.


I agree with you.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:10:27


Post by: Peregrine


boyd wrote:
Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up.


That's because most of GW's releases recently are disappointing. They're either truly awful (everything from Apocalypse 2.0) or mediocre milking of the cash cow (the "dip it in glue and roll it around in purity seals" marine models). There are some good kits (the new Tau pathfinders), but if you look at GW's average output it's not really a surprise that discussion of it would be dominated by negative comments.

People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.


Don't forget that GW's dominance has a lot to do with their retail strategy. You can make a lot of money and dominate an industry with mediocre products if you run your business well, especially if you have a 10-20 year head start on your competition.

If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.


Not really, since most of the leaks we're talking about happen fairly close to the release date. Showing pictures of the new kits in the month before the pre-orders go up isn't going to give their competition any meaningful advantage.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:19:33


Post by: Azreal13




boyd wrote:


I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up. GW releases something, you get pages of people calling it crap and if someone likes it, they are a fanboy (except if you're commenting on PP then you're not because everyone knows they are wine and cheese to GWs beer and pretzels). You see it time after time - the entire Mantic line of models for example (exception being their goblins, GWs don't have the same noses). After a while, there is no reason to cater to the denizens online. Their opinions don't matter as much because no matter what happens their commentary is negative. Why cater to someone who won't buy from you to begin with. The constant negativity is why GW stopped hanging out on portent.net back in the day. People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.

Yes there is some truth to GW not wanting to show the world their WIP but a couple of weeks wouldn't hurt their sales. To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models. Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better and I wanted scorpions and banshees but didn't like the second edition models. If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.


Blatantly untrue, the general pattern with GW leaks is that the sky is indeed falling when the initial, blurry pics leak, but more often than not (Centurions being a recent example of not, I guess) once better pics become available, opinion normalises and while some continue to dislike there are far more "oh, not as bad as I thought" type posts.

I have no clue what your point about Mantic and PP are, either I'm missing your point or you've not expressed it that clearly.

Using my own inner 10 year old as a guide, GW are in a period where they don't appear to be producing quality concepts (I can't fault their kits from a technical viewpoint, I just haven't been a fan of much they've made recently) but I will ask if you would have waited 18 months for those Scorpions if they'd been bonk? I'm going to assume no, but the fact is, you did wait, and you did give GW your money ultimately. If they'd shown the Centurions kit that far out, they'd have been eaten alive by any number of superior third party alternatives.

While I'm sure it isn't entirely the reason, I wonder perhaps if an element of their current policy is the equivalent of getting a film into cinemas or a videogame into shops without opening it up to the critic community first, its a bad sign of the producers confidence in those products, and there may be, at least a partial, analogue with the BUY NOW! NEW! SHINY! release strategy.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:37:52


Post by: insaniak


boyd wrote:
I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up.

There is a very common misconception that people on the internet just complain, yes. But aside from not actually being entirely true (the new Marine release saw a lot of positive comments on everything except the Centurions, and I've seen any number of previous releases that had positive comments on part or all of them), it's also not confined to the internet (I've come across just as much dislike of the Centurions or the Storm Talon in the 'real world' as I saw online) and nothign at all to do with being a preview.

A crap model is going to get complaints whether it is shown a day before release, a month before, or a decade before. If anything, showing the model early is better... I know by the time the Storm Raven was released, a lot of players had got over their disappointment with how it looked and bought it anyway... where they wouldn't necessarily have been buying on at release if they only just saw it that day, due to that immediate reaction to it.



To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models.

Planning your production schedule against projected sales and clearing out reduntant models gets that done just as well as not telling people what you are planning on releasing...



Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better...

Are you sure you're thinking of the 3rd edition Scorpions...? The buck-tooth yoga dudes? With a model waving his sword in the air while simultaneously holding his own ankle?



If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.

Except they don't. Or the guy 'beating them to the market' is a tiny garage operation that really isn't going to have that big an impact on GW's sales. Again, Privateer and Battlefront aren't going to be releasing 28mm not-Aspect Warriors just because GW are working on them. And very few of the smaller companies are capable of producing anything of the same quality as GW are capable of when they try.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:39:40


Post by: Brother Weasel


 insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
They do solve that, by only adding new units they have models for. (i know it's new for GW, but that's what they are doing NOW)

Yes, it's new, and it took losing a lawsuit for them to realise that not releasing stuff that customers want will cause other people to release that stuff instead.

If GW had instead just told their customers that they were working on a Tervigon kit, and showed them WIP shots that would have shown how much better it was going to be than the CH conversion kit, how many fewer kits would CH have sold?


... and that there are people who can 3d print and process faster then they can make their shipments. (see the centurion, people didn't like it, someone came out with a 3d mockup, before it was even out yet)

Sure, a little garage operation can throw together a 3d render and upload it to Shapeways faster than GW can get models produced and out to stores. But realistically, how many is that little garage operation going to sell?

The alternate Centurion sculpt is not serious competition for GW. It's a drop in the pond. And it's a drop that GW could dry up by just not releasing crap models.



whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?

If you think that they released it saying "this is crap" then you are just a fool... I'm not saying it is serious competition, but it could be... depends on how serious someone got into wanting to take gw sales with gw's own game... all hypothetical, but say bandi desides they want to take GW buisiness, GW releases info on minis 6 months in advance, and bandi puts out models that they think people will like better, a week before GW...

Does that happen, no, will it, probably not... we aren't really privy to why gw holds their minis tight to them.. personally i don't see why it matters, stuff comes out when it comes out.... I know people live on a budget, but if it comes out in jan and you can't afford it in till may, so what....

 ender502 wrote:

Lunacy? Yes. But people still drink the koolaid and give it to their kids as well. The only way GW will change policy is if they see an actual drop in sales.



not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:47:19


Post by: insaniak


Brother Weasel wrote:
whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?

A lack of any serious point in doing so.

Sure, Bandi could probably put out not-Eldar faster than GW could. But I would seriously doubt that there would be any real benefit in them doing so. GW are a big fish in a small pond. I doubt they even register on Bandi's radar at all. The effort involved in rushing out a series of models to sell to a niche part of a niche market wouldn't even be worth considering.


we aren't really privy to why gw holds their minis tight to them..

Yes, we are... because Kirby has told us in his financial reports. They believe that the 'surprise' factor gets them more sales than letting people see the model in advance does. Based largely around Space Hulk doing well... because Space Hulk was totally a surprise to everyone by the time it was released, and people just went 'Hey, a gazillion dollar limited edition game I wasn't expecting! I must have it!'... Nothing to do with it being leaked early and, you know, being Space Hulk'.


personally i don't see why it matters, stuff comes out when it comes out.... I know people live on a budget, but if it comes out in jan and you can't afford it in till may, so what....

It matters because people get cranky when they buy a new codex and three weeks later a new one is released.
It matters because people spend a crapload of money on puting together an army, and then the following week discover that they have to redo a whack of it because it's suddenly been invalidated by a new release.
It matters because GW keep telling us it's all about increasing sales on release, and people are saying that they would be more likely to buy on release if they knew a kit was coming so they could save for it, and so the current policy just seems nuts.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:47:37


Post by: boyd


 azreal13 wrote:


boyd wrote:


I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up. GW releases something, you get pages of people calling it crap and if someone likes it, they are a fanboy (except if you're commenting on PP then you're not because everyone knows they are wine and cheese to GWs beer and pretzels). You see it time after time - the entire Mantic line of models for example (exception being their goblins, GWs don't have the same noses). After a while, there is no reason to cater to the denizens online. Their opinions don't matter as much because no matter what happens their commentary is negative. Why cater to someone who won't buy from you to begin with. The constant negativity is why GW stopped hanging out on portent.net back in the day. People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.

Yes there is some truth to GW not wanting to show the world their WIP but a couple of weeks wouldn't hurt their sales. To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models. Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better and I wanted scorpions and banshees but didn't like the second edition models. If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.


Blatantly untrue, the general pattern with GW leaks is that the sky is indeed falling when the initial, blurry pics leak, but more often than not (Centurions being a recent example of not, I guess) once better pics become available, opinion normalises and while some continue to dislike there are far more "oh, not as bad as I thought" type posts.

I have no clue what your point about Mantic and PP are, either I'm missing your point or you've not expressed it that clearly.

Using my own inner 10 year old as a guide, GW are in a period where they don't appear to be producing quality concepts (I can't fault their kits from a technical viewpoint, I just haven't been a fan of much they've made recently) but I will ask if you would have waited 18 months for those Scorpions if they'd been bonk? I'm going to assume no, but the fact is, you did wait, and you did give GW your money ultimately. If they'd shown the Centurions kit that far out, they'd have been eaten alive by any number of superior third party alternatives.

While I'm sure it isn't entirely the reason, I wonder perhaps if an element of their current policy is the equivalent of getting a film into cinemas or a videogame into shops without opening it up to the critic community first, its a bad sign of the producers confidence in those products, and there may be, at least a partial, analogue with the BUY NOW! NEW! SHINY! release strategy.


The number or re-released models that look like crap compared to their 2nd edition counter part is few and far between. Usually when I see new models online, I expect to get them soon. Thing is I would probably have bought both but because I saw them I said I will wait as they should be out soon. after a while when you start to see more and more stuff show up online you keep thinking, I can hold out. It's the reason I have a Saim hann army. Lots of jet bikes, lots of guardians, lots of vipers, and tanks. Very little aspect warriors so I wasn't missing much.

Sure you could get the critics to opine but that wouldn't change much - we still have movies that get great reviews but are absolutely horrible at the box office Prometheus, Godzilla, Planet of the Apes (the remake), the Hulk, Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull (sorry all I can think of when I think of this is the South Park bit) and there are others. Some might have done well at the box office, I just recall hearing they didn't or I just thought the movie was bad. I would put Spider-Man 3 in that category but I don't think I've seen it or plan on seeing it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:57:11


Post by: Peregrine


Brother Weasel wrote:
whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?


Two things:

1) A larger company generally has a business plan that doesn't involve making "not GW" kits. PP isn't going to put the next Warmachine release on hold so they can make a not-centurion kit, especially since problem #2 almost guarantees that GW will get most of the potential sales for that kit.

2) The production methods used by garage kit companies don't scale up to mass production. Some random guy can throw together a sculpt and make a hundred resin casts of it pretty easily, but a larger company trying to make large-company-scale production runs needs to spend a lot more time on the design to justify making it, spend even more time on mold and production engineering, get it into their sales network, etc. You just can't do that kind of stuff fast enough to beat GW to market when they've already got the kits manufactured and sitting in the warehouse by the time the first pictures leak.

but say bandi desides they want to take GW buisiness, GW releases info on minis 6 months in advance, and bandi puts out models that they think people will like better, a week before GW...


If GW is releasing enough information to make an entire competing product six months before release day then that's just stupid. We're talking about leaks that are much closer to release day here.

Also, if someone wanted to compete with GW they'd probably do it by making an entire competing game and product line, not just a random model kit or two.

personally i don't see why it matters, stuff comes out when it comes out....


It matters because news of upcoming releases builds excitement and helps sales in the long run. GW are bullying people who should be their natural allies in hyping upcoming releases, and for no better reason than their own incompetence at marketing.

not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.


So why are you posting here then?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 00:57:29


Post by: Azreal13


boyd wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:


boyd wrote:


I think we can all agree the Internet is used for porn and complaining (sometimes combined). Every time someone leaks something an image, it's pages of complaints unless there are dedicated fanboys to actually hype something up. GW releases something, you get pages of people calling it crap and if someone likes it, they are a fanboy (except if you're commenting on PP then you're not because everyone knows they are wine and cheese to GWs beer and pretzels). You see it time after time - the entire Mantic line of models for example (exception being their goblins, GWs don't have the same noses). After a while, there is no reason to cater to the denizens online. Their opinions don't matter as much because no matter what happens their commentary is negative. Why cater to someone who won't buy from you to begin with. The constant negativity is why GW stopped hanging out on portent.net back in the day. People have been predicting they would go out of business and they are all unoriginal hacks since 1995-7. Now 15-20 years later, they are still here and still the 800 pound gorillas in the industry.

Yes there is some truth to GW not wanting to show the world their WIP but a couple of weeks wouldn't hurt their sales. To early and you risk cannibalizing existing kits as people wait to get the new models. Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better and I wanted scorpions and banshees but didn't like the second edition models. If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.


Blatantly untrue, the general pattern with GW leaks is that the sky is indeed falling when the initial, blurry pics leak, but more often than not (Centurions being a recent example of not, I guess) once better pics become available, opinion normalises and while some continue to dislike there are far more "oh, not as bad as I thought" type posts.

I have no clue what your point about Mantic and PP are, either I'm missing your point or you've not expressed it that clearly.

Using my own inner 10 year old as a guide, GW are in a period where they don't appear to be producing quality concepts (I can't fault their kits from a technical viewpoint, I just haven't been a fan of much they've made recently) but I will ask if you would have waited 18 months for those Scorpions if they'd been bonk? I'm going to assume no, but the fact is, you did wait, and you did give GW your money ultimately. If they'd shown the Centurions kit that far out, they'd have been eaten alive by any number of superior third party alternatives.

While I'm sure it isn't entirely the reason, I wonder perhaps if an element of their current policy is the equivalent of getting a film into cinemas or a videogame into shops without opening it up to the critic community first, its a bad sign of the producers confidence in those products, and there may be, at least a partial, analogue with the BUY NOW! NEW! SHINY! release strategy.


The number or re-released models that look like crap compared to their 2nd edition counter part is few and far between. Usually when I see new models online, I expect to get them soon. Thing is I would probably have bought both but because I saw them I said I will wait as they should be out soon. after a while when you start to see more and more stuff show up online you keep thinking, I can hold out. It's the reason I have a Saim hann army. Lots of jet bikes, lots of guardians, lots of vipers, and tanks. Very little aspect warriors so I wasn't missing much.

Sure you could get the critics to opine but that wouldn't change much - we still have movies that get great reviews but are absolutely horrible at the box office Prometheus, Godzilla, Planet of the Apes (the remake), the Hulk, Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull (sorry all I can think of when I think of this is the South Park bit) and there are others. Some might have done well at the box office, I just recall hearing they didn't or I just thought the movie was bad. I would put Spider-Man 3 in that category but I don't think I've seen it or plan on seeing it.



I think you've misunderstood the tactic, producers dump stuff on the public without an appropriate window for criticism when they know its gak.

I'm not saying GW should allow critique to boost sales, I'm saying they dump stuff on the public because they're not confident in what they're producing and don't want negative press to hurt sales.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:06:41


Post by: Brother Weasel


 insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?

A lack of any serious point in doing so.

Sure, Bandi could probably put out not-Eldar faster than GW could. But I would seriously doubt that there would be any real benefit in them doing so. GW are a big fish in a small pond. I doubt they even register on Bandi's radar at all. The effort involved in rushing out a series of models to sell to a niche part of a niche market wouldn't even be worth considering.

I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about... hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)


It matters because people get cranky when they buy a new codex and three weeks later a new one is released.
It matters because people spend a crapload of money on puting together an army, and then the following week discover that they have to redo a whack of it because it's suddenly been invalidated by a new release.
It matters because GW keep telling us it's all about increasing sales on release, and people are saying that they would be more likely to buy on release if they knew a kit was coming so they could save for it, and so the current policy just seems nuts.



the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time... if they put out a schedule for the next 3 years they will lose sales...
I spend a crapload of money making armies, i have uhhhh 4 and a half, i've been building one of them since 3rd edition... new stuff always comes out, new books always come out (unless it's the sisters) planning a list and starting it to get built to have an anouncement of a codex... oops better stop till the dex comes out in 3 months, or a year... GW doens' t care if you play in tournies and your lists are invalidated in your competitive environment... they actualy cater to me, I play, have fun and am willing to spend money on stuff that entertains me...

we will have to disagree on weather people knowing something is comming out vs it being on a shelf for 6 months is any diffrent, maybe i'm just to old to understand how or why someone would buy something if they saw a pick of it, then waited 6 months, vs buying it 6 months after it came out...


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:10:01


Post by: boyd


 insaniak wrote:
boyd wrote:
I think we can all agree the

Heck when I saw the greens for the third edition Eldar, I waited 18 months before I bought a single aspect warrior because the scorpions looked so much better...

Are you sure you're thinking of the 3rd edition Scorpions...? The buck-tooth yoga dudes? With a model waving his sword in the air while simultaneously holding his own ankle?



If they telegraph their moves, they risk someone else beating them to the market.

Except they don't. Or the guy 'beating them to the market' is a tiny garage operation that really isn't going to have that big an impact on GW's sales. Again, Privateer and Battlefront aren't going to be releasing 28mm not-Aspect Warriors just because GW are working on them. And very few of the smaller companies are capable of producing anything of the same quality as GW are capable of when they try.


Yes that would be them. They still look so much better than the 2nd edition models. The current ones look more like karrandras though and I'm fine with that, I own some of them too. Scorpions were my go to aspect squad with the Saim hann craft world codex.

Sure but you can see GWs design influence in all of mantic's work (I'm sure some of there miniature team is ex GW though too).

With the larger companies, you're right, they have their thing going and it doesn't affect them as much because for the most part they have their core games too. It's more so the one off games - the specialist games that will rise from the dead like they always have. GW has little incentive to put these out because the risk reward is not there like it is for their core. Spoiling this can make it unsuccessful. Sure dread fleet was a disaster but I wouldn't know because I didn't play it. I was told the game wasn't worth it because the models couldn't be used elsewhere and the shop owner didn't think it would sell because of what he read online. So I didn't pick it up because nobody in my area would play it. Nobody in my shop was interested or even wanted to try it out. Same with space hulk - it was bought because of the terminators (im kicking myself for not buying the tiles from everyone who wanted to dump them after buying the game but then again I have only played a handful of times with my wife because she is the only person I have been able to convince to play it ( think it had something to do with taking her to see Twilight and the other sparkly vampire movies) and she hated playing as the terminators. Spoiling these projects can hurt them or prevent GW from doing another one.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:12:31


Post by: insaniak


Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about... hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)

If it's not actually feasible, basing the business direction of a multi-million dollar corporation on the possibiliy of it occuring seems just a teeeeeensy bit crazy, no?


the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time...

They're really not. Because the second person at least gets three months use out of that codex. The other guy gets none.

Sure, whenever you announce a new release that is replacing an old one, you're going to ruffle some feathers. That doesn't mean that some effort to minimise the impact of that won't be appreciated by your customers.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:16:47


Post by: Brother Weasel


 Peregrine wrote:


not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.


So why are you posting here then?


because it's entertaining? does it make me a koolaid drinker because i don't have a problem with what GW does? I don't care what most people do, i Want to play my game and paint my minis (whatever game i'm playing is, and there are several) I doen't get slighted in the least when GW sends out legal letters to people, i do understand why others do, but i can have a diffrent point of view on it all without being a fan boy... when it comes to GW I care about what game i'm playing next and what minis i'm painting, if they make a crappy mini, i don't buy it... I"m not vested in weather wayland BOW or anyone else gets sued in any way. If gw sues the wrong person or does stuff that gets them out of business, i'll play the last version of the game with whatever codex i have, until my friends don't want to play anymore, then i'll play whatever else strkies my fancy (Malifaux and robotech right now)

But I can do all that while having a semi intelligent conversation with an opposed viewpoint.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:21:05


Post by: insaniak


boyd wrote:
Sure but you can see GWs design influence in all of mantic's work (I'm sure some of there miniature team is ex GW though too).

Don't Mantic also have a fairly established history of missing release dates by now?

That would seem to somewhat lessen the fear of them rushing something out to beat GW to the punch, I would think...


. Spoiling this can make it unsuccessful. Sure dread fleet was a disaster but I wouldn't know because I didn't play it. Nobody in my shop was interested or even wanted to try it out.

Dreadfleet was a disaster because it wasn't marketed. GW allowed the internet to speculate on what the mystery game was going to be, and then when it was finally announced it was something that very few people were interested in. Instead of working on that by announcing it earlier and using their big, expensive, flashy website and big, glossy 'hobby' magazine to promote this upcoming game, they left it to the last minute, dropped it on stores and said 'Here you go'... and the thoroughly underwhelmed masses voted with their wallets.

Dreadfleet could have been a successful splash release. But GW didn't do their homework first, and got burnt.


Same with space hulk - it was bought because of the terminators (im kicking myself for not buying the tiles from everyone who wanted to dump them after buying the game but then again I have only played a handful of times with my wife because she is the only person I have been able to convince to play it ( think it had something to do with taking her to see Twilight and the other sparkly vampire movies) and she hated playing as the terminators. Spoiling these projects can hurt them or prevent GW from doing another one.

Spoiling Space Hulk wouldn't have hurt it in the slightest, because other than the botched marketting it was an example of GW doing it right. They re-released a game that people had been asking for, and they re-released it in a format that was just drop-dead gorgeous. Whether people were buying it just for the models or for the game, they were buying it. And they still would have bought it if they had known about it 3 months in advance.

And we know this because we did know about it 3 months in advance, despite GW trying to keep it quiet.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:21:39


Post by: Peregrine


Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about...


If GW are clinging to an idiotic "marketing" policy because they're paranoid about something that isn't feasible then they are incompetent idiots.

hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)


And we could have WWIII tomorrow and GW HQ could be incinerated by a nuke. Reasonable people don't worry about unlikely doomsday scenarios when making business plans.

the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time... if they put out a schedule for the next 3 years they will lose sales...


You're missing the fact that there's a good chance that someone who buys a codex the day before the announcement and then has to buy it again immediately is likely to say "screw this" and quit entirely. The proper way to handle this is to publish a release schedule and then schedule your production quantities appropriately so that you sell the last remaining stock of the old codex right before the new one is released. The potential to have to trash a few unsold books is a tiny problem compared to the potential gain in sales from having proper marketing.

And of course with model kits it's even easier since dedicated collectors and hobbyists looking for bits are going to buy "obsolete" kits even once their replacements are available, so that remaining stock will eventually sell if you wait long enough.

(And yes, people will continue to buy the old codex when a new one is on the way because they want to use the army now, not in six months.)

GW doens' t care if you play in tournies and your lists are invalidated in your competitive environment...


Which is why GW's management are incompetent idiots. Well-run companies like WOTC want to sell to everyone, which is why they make sure that competitive players are happy while also keeping the "kitchen table" players happy.

maybe i'm just to old to understand how or why someone would buy something if they saw a pick of it, then waited 6 months, vs buying it 6 months after it came out...


Because you don't just show a picture of it. How it would look if GW took a lesson from WOTC on how to successfully market a new release:

Six months from release day you post a teaser "X army is coming" picture/video clip (what GW does now, the day before release day).
Three months from release day you show a WIP in a White Dwarf article about the sculptor. Or even just silently leave it sitting in the background on their desk and let the dedicated fans start speculating about it.
A month from release day you show a picture of the final kit.
Two weeks from release day you publish a strategy article talking about all the cool things you can do with the new kit.
A week before release day you publish a "how we made this" article talking about how the fluff translated into the model.

See how you have a buildup of excitement with each step in the process making you want to see more until the kit is finally available? You get people thinking about the new stuff and imagining all the ways they could make use of it, instead of just dumping it on them out of nowhere. The only reason not to do it this way is if you don't have any confidence in your new product and you're afraid that people will decide not to buy it after all if they have enough time to think about it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:23:10


Post by: Brother Weasel


 insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about... hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)

If it's not actually feasible, basing the business direction of a multi-million dollar corporation on the possibiliy of it occuring seems just a teeeeeensy bit crazy, no?


the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time...

They're really not. Because the second person at least gets three months use out of that codex. The other guy gets none.

Sure, whenever you announce a new release that is replacing an old one, you're going to ruffle some feathers. That doesn't mean that some effort to minimise the impact of that won't be appreciated by your customers.


I agree, maybe they think it's more feasble then we do, maybe they know somethign about it that we don't, and maybe they don't know what they are doing.

I think the impact (persoanly) is more minamle then people like to play out... how many people are buying entire armies a week or 2 before a new codex comes out? Some due, granted, but most people I see in the stores etc arnt' buying an army, they are adding units slowly... Would i like to know whats comming out, sure, why not, but it doesn't really effect how much stuff i'm going to buy (and yes i know there are people who play several companies, and thier budgets are relegated to i'll either buy this gw item or this pp item, depending what comes out... i get that, but unless buying that item only apeals to you before it comes out and you refuse to get it after, it'll be in store for many years.)


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:28:14


Post by: insaniak


Incidentally...
Brother Weasel wrote:maybe i'm just to old to understand how or why someone would buy something if they saw a pick of it, then waited 6 months, vs buying it 6 months after it came out...

The thing to remember here is that GW doesn't want you to wait 6 months after release to buy the kit. They want you to be so excited about the release that you rush out and buy it on release day.

What people are saying is that this would be more likely to work if they had advance notice of what was being released so that they could plan accordingly.

It's not an issue of when people want stuff. It's an issue of GW's stated reason for this policy not actually making any sort of logical sense.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:29:08


Post by: boyd


 insaniak wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:

the people who buy the codex the day before the announcment are in that same exact situation if it's announced 3 months ahead of time...

They're really not. Because the second person at least gets three months use out of that codex. The other guy gets none.
.


I got burned by a game shop in Orlando, I stopped playing WHFB through most of my college career (women, booze, and frat took up more time). When I finally started easing my way back in (and convinced some of my frat brothers to play) one shop sold me the 6th edition rule book with 7th being released the next morning. I was told by the store owner it was the latest and greatest and I kept asking if it was the one that was going on sale the next day and he was stocking his GW on the shelf from his reorder and told me yes it was, I had nothing to worry about. When i got home I went online to read the reviews and noticed the cover art was off. Took it back and the guy laughed at me. Needless to say that they didn't get a dime of my business for nearly 9 years. It wasn't until earlier this last year with the Eldar release I bought anything from them and that was after ownership changed hands several times. Goodwill works both ways. I laughed because I go through an army a year between my fantasy, 40k, and Warmachine factions so its about $5-6,000 over that time frame not bad money but I'm not a big spender with one or two kits a month. The wife likes this hobby more than going to the bar and drinking our money.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:29:09


Post by: Azreal13


Brother Weasel wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:


not evertone gives a crap one way or another what gw does... some people just like to play the game and or paint the minis.


So why are you posting here then?


because it's entertaining? does it make me a koolaid drinker because i don't have a problem with what GW does? I don't care what most people do, i Want to play my game and paint my minis (whatever game i'm playing is, and there are several) I doen't get slighted in the least when GW sends out legal letters to people, i do understand why others do, but i can have a diffrent point of view on it all without being a fan boy... when it comes to GW I care about what game i'm playing next and what minis i'm painting, if they make a crappy mini, i don't buy it... I"m not vested in weather wayland BOW or anyone else gets sued in any way. If gw sues the wrong person or does stuff that gets them out of business, i'll play the last version of the game with whatever codex i have, until my friends don't want to play anymore, then i'll play whatever else strkies my fancy (Malifaux and robotech right now)

But I can do all that while having a semi intelligent conversation with an opposed viewpoint.


Slightly hyperbolic, given the subject, but relevant nonetheless...



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:30:32


Post by: insaniak


Brother Weasel wrote:
how many people are buying entire armies a week or 2 before a new codex comes out?

Under GW's preferred business model, anyone new to the hobby who walks into a GW store at that time.


.... i get that, but unless buying that item only apeals to you before it comes out and you refuse to get it after, it'll be in store for many years.)

See my previous post.

Again, the relevant point isn't about when people will want to buy stuff. It's about GW saying when they want people to buy stuff.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:33:13


Post by: Peregrine


Brother Weasel wrote:
I agree, maybe they think it's more feasble then we do, maybe they know somethign about it that we don't, and maybe they don't know what they are doing.


Or their reasons have nothing to do with other companies beating them to the market. Which is what we already know, GW keeps everything secret because they're paranoid that allowing people to spend time thinking about their purchase will cost them too many impulse buys. They don't have the confidence in their product to do anything else.

Would i like to know whats comming out, sure, why not, but it doesn't really effect how much stuff i'm going to buy


But for many people it does. For example, FFG has previewed the Imperial Aces expansion months before its release day, and I've committed ~$50 to buying a couple copies of it. GW can release all the impulse buys they want, but it would be extremely difficult for them to convince me to buy anything that would interfere with my X-Wing purchase.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 01:35:21


Post by: Brother Weasel


 Peregrine wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
I didn't say is was feasble, in fact i said the same thing you did, dosen't mean it's not somethign they think about...


If GW are clinging to an idiotic "marketing" policy because they're paranoid about something that isn't feasible then they are incompetent idiots.

hell even someone like PP or whatnot could descide to make 3rd party parts (again, i doubt they would, but they could)


And we could have WWIII tomorrow and GW HQ could be incinerated by a nuke. Reasonable people don't worry about unlikely doomsday scenarios when making business plans.


i have no idea if this is why they don't do, it s could be as simple as, "we told new line we wouldn't release anything so we arn't" or as insaniak pointed out, they like surprise marketing.

You're missing the fact that there's a good chance that someone who buys a codex the day before the announcement and then has to buy it again immediately is likely to say "screw this" and quit entirely. The proper way to handle this is to publish a release schedule and then schedule your production quantities appropriately so that you sell the last remaining stock of the old codex right before the new one is released. The potential to have to trash a few unsold books is a tiny problem compared to the potential gain in sales from having proper marketing.


as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay

Which is why GW's management are incompetent idiots. Well-run companies like WOTC want to sell to everyone, which is why they make sure that competitive players are happy while also keeping the "kitchen table" players happy.

sure, sell to everyone, good idea, even wotc doens't sell to everyone, some things do better then others, GW (it seams) would rather not deal with the tourny scene, for whatever their reason is, they did it for years, they stopped... good or bad, that's just how it is.)

Because you don't just show a picture of it. How it would look if GW took a lesson from WOTC on how to successfully market a new release:

Six months from release day you post a teaser "X army is coming" picture/video clip (what GW does now, the day before release day).
Three months from release day you show a WIP in a White Dwarf article about the sculptor.
A month from release day you show a picture of the final kit.
Two weeks from release day you publish a strategy article talking about all the cool things you can do with the new kit.
A week before release day you publish a "how we made this" article talking about how the fluff translated into the model.

See how you have a buildup of excitement with each step in the process making you want to see more until the kit is finally available? You get people thinking about the new stuff and imagining all the ways they could make use of it, instead of just dumping it on them out of nowhere. The only reason not to do it this way is if you don't have any confidence in your new product and you're afraid that people will decide not to buy it after all if they have enough time to think about it.


I won't disagree that it would make it more interesting, you seem to think that just because i have opinions on why they do stuff, and am not bothered by how they do stuff, that i would do it the same way... I like the GW from 3rd edition, where we had previes in WD etc... but i'm not bothered by not knowing... I"m no fan of kirby and corprate runnings.. and i don't think it will continue to go that way forever, i think it will end up driving them into the ground or some fresh blood will take over and bring the company back to the company that everyone likes (but i think it will still cost a lot more then other companies)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:

Would i like to know whats comming out, sure, why not, but it doesn't really effect how much stuff i'm going to buy


But for many people it does. For example, FFG has previewed the Imperial Aces expansion months before its release day, and I've committed ~$50 to buying a couple copies of it. GW can release all the impulse buys they want, but it would be extremely difficult for them to convince me to buy anything that would interfere with my X-Wing purchase.


i just don't understand... maybe because my budget works diffrent.. if when imp aces came out i liked it i would buy it or save up for it...

(mind you it's the same reason i hate kickstarters, i want to know if the game/models are any good before buying things)


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 02:02:02


Post by: Peregrine


Brother Weasel wrote:
i have no idea if this is why they don't do, it s could be as simple as, "we told new line we wouldn't release anything so we arn't" or as insaniak pointed out, they like surprise marketing.


There's no need to speculate, GW states very clearly that they do this because they believe that surprise impulse buys are the best sales method. The fact that this is unbelievably stupid doesn't make it less true.

as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay


The person who finds out about a codex coming in two months (or longer) at least gets to use it for those two months, which they might be perfectly happy with if those two months include a tournament they wanted to take their new army to. And this only gets more likely the longer out the releases are announced.

sure, sell to everyone, good idea, even wotc doens't sell to everyone, some things do better then others, GW (it seams) would rather not deal with the tourny scene, for whatever their reason is, they did it for years, they stopped... good or bad, that's just how it is.)


The only thing preventing GW from selling 40k to tournament players is their own incompetence. They have deliberately thrown away a major market for no reason beyond their idiotic belief in selling to their "core market".

i just don't understand... maybe because my budget works diffrent.. if when imp aces came out i liked it i would buy it or save up for it...


Obviously your budget works differently. If I love an upcoming release I want it ASAP, which means I'm going to save up in advance so that I have the money ready on release day. Therefore companies that preview their upcoming releases well in advance are more likely to get my money.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 02:11:46


Post by: Brother Weasel


 Peregrine wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
i have no idea if this is why they don't do, it s could be as simple as, "we told new line we wouldn't release anything so we arn't" or as insaniak pointed out, they like surprise marketing.


There's no need to speculate, GW states very clearly that they do this because they believe that surprise impulse buys are the best sales method. The fact that this is unbelievably stupid doesn't make it less true.

as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay


The person who finds out about a codex coming in two months (or longer) at least gets to use it for those two months, which they might be perfectly happy with if those two months include a tournament they wanted to take their new army to. And this only gets more likely the longer out the releases are announced.

sure, sell to everyone, good idea, even wotc doens't sell to everyone, some things do better then others, GW (it seams) would rather not deal with the tourny scene, for whatever their reason is, they did it for years, they stopped... good or bad, that's just how it is.)


The only thing preventing GW from selling 40k to tournament players is their own incompetence. They have deliberately thrown away a major market for no reason beyond their idiotic belief in selling to their "core market".

i just don't understand... maybe because my budget works diffrent.. if when imp aces came out i liked it i would buy it or save up for it...


Obviously your budget works differently. If I love an upcoming release I want it ASAP, which means I'm going to save up in advance so that I have the money ready on release day. Therefore companies that preview their upcoming releases well in advance are more likely to get my money.


i'm just offering a differing veiwpoint from someone who isn't gonzo over what GW does one way or another... Now someone telll me when the sisters are cmming HA


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 06:37:14


Post by: Bull0


 azreal13 wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And no the "they could not sign the contract" does not hold ground, a contract should never be abusive and GWs contracts are about as abusive as it can get.


Sorry, but the point still stands, nobody's forced to trade with Games Workshop.


This argument is facile in the extreme.

You really suggest that any company that has built itself up over years or decades due, in part, to selling products from the largest commercial entity in the industry, can simply eliminate that element from their business because said entity has paranoid delusions and changes your relationship overnight?

Sure, a new company could base its financial projections and viability studies off information that didn't include GW, but a going concern doesn't have that freedom, certainly not in the short term, even if they could divorce themselves in the medium to long term.

GW have already precipitated the death of Maelstrom (even if mistakes were made by MG that compounded the situation) through exactly this sort of shenanigans, and will continue to pull this sort of nonsense for as long as people stand for it.


Honestly? That's business. Until they're in violation of law (which they may well be! These contracts and the associated practices, such as the story about having frank planning discussions only to renew contracts with clauses that preclude those discussions, sound absolutely horrendous), it's on the retailers not to sign up, or not to renew if the new contracts are in their view unfair, or to seek relevant legal advice. If enough of them do it, that's GW blown, and they change tack. Instead, they're signing anyway, and complaining on the internet when the contracts are enforced, hoping that customers will "vote with their wallets" (how does not buying the independent retailers' stock help their cause, again?) and create the change they want to see but aren't able to create themselves. As is probably clear I don't really get it. I'm happy to be enlightened but so far haven't seen anything other than some moralising.


It really isn't business. While there is an element which appear ready to crawl over the corpse of their grandmother to make an extra few pennies in the pound, the vast majority conduct themselves in a far more affable manner. Not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because any business positioned in the manufacturing, distribution or wholesale sector needs other businesses to buy its product in order to survive.

Now, GW are an exception to the standard model in that they have direct online and physical presences, which inevitably leads to some conflict of interests. This isn't a unique situation, but it is unusual. I do have fairly extensive experience in an industry where independent retailers compete directly in the marketplace with their suppliers direct channels, but in 12 years I've encountered nothing like the control that GW are trying to exert on their Indy partners.

It would be far more sensible to acknowledge that the independent channel appeals to, and reaches, a different sector of the customer base than their own stores, and adjust their offering through that channel accordingly, but no, they'd apparently beat them into submission or extinction than utilise them to their own advantage.

I've also run my own business where I made a decision to sign up to a franchise, because, in theory at least, it allowed me to offer a wider range of product, make a greater margin on my sales and provided a greater degree of admin support behind the scenes. On the surface, a no brainer decision, but as time went by, the franchise agreement was amended, reducing my freedoms to run my business as I saw fit while leaving me with all the financial risk. Most of these changes were within the existing agreement's remit, and the couple that required me to re-sign or terminate, well, it isn't as simple as "just say no" when your income and your ability to service your customer base is on the line, believe me. Any of this sound familiar?

Just because something is legal doesn't make it moral or ethical, and that is the real debate here (or though, as you rightly mention, there may be a suggestion it isn't even legal) and if people find it distasteful, well, I'm not surprised.

As for voting with their wallets? I'm sure most Indys wouldn't care if their GW stock started gathering dust, as long as their income was maintained from other sources, my understanding from speaking to most Indy retailers is that GW is considered a necessary evil by most, and have been a bear to deal with for years. If they were gaining enough sales from other systems and manufacturers that they could afford to drop or de-emphasise GW, I suspect many would do it with a sigh of relief.

While the retailers may eventually get their gak together and posse up, in the meantime, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour distasteful needs to take responsibility and withold their cash from GW. If enough share this view, then change will happen, if we really are just an insignificant minority shouting on the Internet, then that's capitalism.

One things for sure, if enough people really do say "no, I will not endorse this behaviour by rewarding you with my business" GW won't be able to bully, manipulate or litigate their way out of it.


I'm not pretending I have broad experience of the miniature wargaming industry - obviously I don't - but when I say it's just business, I mean that it isn't personal and all the moaning about bullying and unethical practices aren't even slightly relevant unless it can be shown that to behave in a "better" way would make GW more money. Because pursuing profit is what they're all about. I'm yet to see any argument other than that what they're doing is mean.

I also liked how you reiterate my own point back to me about how if enough people don't kowtow to GW's practices, that's GW blown, as if I hadn't already said that.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 07:00:21


Post by: Azreal13


It wasn't back to you, it was more of a general point, and believe me, you don't come anywhere near close having the copyright on that train of thought.

I happen to believe that behaving in a more open and inclusive manner would net GW more money, as a substantial amount of the negativity directed towards them by individuals is down to their actions as much as to their products and pricing.

I would love to be able to love GW, but knowing what I know, and seeing it from the perspective I do, I just can't. I also know from posting on here and talking to wargaming friends in real life, I'm not alone.

If that open and inclusive attitude extended to retail partners too, well, tell me that wouldn't be a good thing. If you've not seen it, check out rich1231's reply to me on pg7 of this thread. If you're not aware he runs Wayland Games, and as such is at the heart of this particular shitstorm, and is probably responsible for shifting more GW product than anyone outside of GW's themselves. Read between the lines and tell me that his attitude towards GW is what you would want from one of your biggest trade customers if you were in any way concerned with a healthy, long term relationship?

It is business yes, it is just bad, short sighted, ignorant business and yet another event which will contribute to the slow erosion of GW's market share over the coming years, all in favour of the somewhat misguided notion that the harder they make it for the customer to buy from elsewhere, the more they will buy from them directly.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 08:06:56


Post by: Bull0


If you're right, then we'll know fairly soon, because what they're doing would represent a *death spiral*. As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 08:17:51


Post by: Azreal13


azreal13 wrote:While the retailers may eventually get their gak together and posse up, in the meantime, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour distasteful needs to take responsibility and withold their cash from GW. If enough share this view, then change will happen, if we really are just an insignificant minority shouting on the Internet, then that's capitalism.


Bull0 wrote:If you're right, then we'll know fairly soon, because what they're doing would represent a *death spiral*. As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.


Now who's quoting who back to whom?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 08:20:38


Post by: Bull0


 azreal13 wrote:
azreal13 wrote:While the retailers may eventually get their gak together and posse up, in the meantime, anyone who finds this sort of behaviour distasteful needs to take responsibility and withold their cash from GW. If enough share this view, then change will happen, if we really are just an insignificant minority shouting on the Internet, then that's capitalism.


Bull0 wrote:If you're right, then we'll know fairly soon, because what they're doing would represent a *death spiral*. As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.


Now who's quoting who back to whom?


That's kind of reframing. We were discussing whether or not GW could stand to gain more money from behaving in a manner which you find more morally acceptable. I said that they probably don't, because most of their customers aren't even aware that it's going on.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 08:57:14


Post by: Herzlos


 Peregrine wrote:

as opposed to the guy who buys the codex and the next day it's announced that there is a codex comming for them in 2 months? I just don't agree here... whenever they announce a new code someone is going to be pissed off and throw thier army on ebay


The person who finds out about a codex coming in two months (or longer) at least gets to use it for those two months, which they might be perfectly happy with if those two months include a tournament they wanted to take their new army to. And this only gets more likely the longer out the releases are announced.


It also gives them 2 months to save up for the new one, and prevents them feeling as shafted.

If I bought a codex (which isn't cheap these days) and it was invalid the day after, there's no way I'd be buying the new one right away. Whereas I bought into 5th Ed 40K about 10 months before 6th Ed was dropping, because I was happy with the amount of use I'd get out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nkelsch wrote:

Besides the known issues with 3rd parties trying to get models to market before GW releases them... Apple can tell you the 'impulse buy' secrecy model works for them. You literally don't know there is a new device Wednesday and on Friday it is in stores ready to buy... IF YOU GET THERE IN TIME GOGOGOGO IPHONE!


Except Apple products are the worst kept secrets in the industry; they release them pretty regularly (1+ new phone model every year at the same time), and invite the press to announcements months in advance (they are releasing something else at the end of this month), and the new items never invalidate the old ones.

The apart from the completely new stuff, it's all just revisions (faster, bigger, better). But to say no-ones knows about an apple product 2 days before it launches is disingenuous.

Whereas with GW, they sell a range of stuff so you can't always predict what's going (except for new 40K/WHF editions), and unless i'ts new you've no idea if whatever you're buying today will still be valid in a weeks time. At least most models can still be used unless they disappear from the codex though.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 09:09:54


Post by: Zweischneid


Herzlos wrote:


Except Apple products are the worst kept secrets in the industry; they release them pretty regularly (1+ new phone model every year at the same time), and invite the press to announcements months in advance (they are releasing something else at the end of this month), and the new items never invalidate the old ones..


For what it's worth, GW releases are the worst kept secret in the industry too.

And of course Apple invalidates their older stuff. The nerd-rage when Apple (without any pre-launch info) gave away the "iPod" for "free" with every single one of their (back then) new "iPhones" was epic, as well as one of the greatest (self-)cannibalizations of successful product line in the last 20 years or so.




Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 09:12:15


Post by: Pacific


I thought a particular low point was the feature on AoBR miniatures, and a double page spread on the boxset, in White Dwarf a month before the release of 6th edition. You have to think was an attempt to help clear out the last of that stock.

Obviously if you're a serious fan then you would have known the new edition was right around the corner, but I wonder how many casual buyers (parents etc.) got caught out by that one.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 09:15:04


Post by: Peregrine


 Bull0 wrote:
As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.


The issue isn't just people ragequitting over GW's business policies, it's that those policies are inherently bad. Bullying people who promote and sell GW products is a sign that GW is in desperation mode and lashing out at anyone they can find to blame. Insisting on keeping everything secret until pre-orders go up is a sign that GW lacks confidence in their products and is afraid that people won't buy them if they have time to think about it. Treating their retail partners as competition is a sign that GW needs every bit of short-term revenue, even when it comes at the cost of damaging their sales network in the long run. The overall picture is a company that can't grow through legitimate improvement and has to settle for extracting every bit of profit they can from their shrinking customer base.

Also, don't forget that the 1% are far more important than their raw numbers suggest. A lot of that 99% is kids buying a box of space marines and abandoning the hobby a week later, if you look at the actual community that GW depends on you'll probably find that a lot more than 1% either read forums or listen to people who do.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 09:48:28


Post by: Bull0


 Peregrine wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.


The issue isn't just people ragequitting over GW's business policies, it's that those policies are inherently bad. Bullying people who promote and sell GW products is a sign that GW is in desperation mode and lashing out at anyone they can find to blame. Insisting on keeping everything secret until pre-orders go up is a sign that GW lacks confidence in their products and is afraid that people won't buy them if they have time to think about it. Treating their retail partners as competition is a sign that GW needs every bit of short-term revenue, even when it comes at the cost of damaging their sales network in the long run. The overall picture is a company that can't grow through legitimate improvement and has to settle for extracting every bit of profit they can from their shrinking customer base.

Also, don't forget that the 1% are far more important than their raw numbers suggest. A lot of that 99% is kids buying a box of space marines and abandoning the hobby a week later, if you look at the actual community that GW depends on you'll probably find that a lot more than 1% either read forums or listen to people who do.


OK, so substitute 1% of customers for 1% of sales, bump it up to 2% or 5% or whatever, either way, I believe it's a minority of overall custom that's related to people reading forums (you're all going on about how much you hate GW already anyway, right? So what difference has this actually made? You were already alienated).

I don't want to indulge in that level of speculation regarding what the policies mean for the health of the business as I'm not really a business guy, but I do know that they believe what they're doing is shrewd and will make them more money - that's why they're doing it. It's this idea of getting hobbyists to buy what's coming out today, not save for what's coming out in two months. You can disagree with that (I sure do) but it's a pretty clear money-making scheme. If they completely exhaust us (and I know I'm going that way, particularly if the rumours re the Nid supplements are to be believed) and the business starts doing very badly, they'll change tack. It won't be because it's "morally good" to do that, it'll be because they think they can make more money that way.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 09:57:56


Post by: Zweischneid


 Bull0 wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
As it stands I don't believe even 1% of their customers read forums or are thus aware of the dodgy goings-on with trade accounts, or have put the pieces together enough to be mad about it.


The issue isn't just people ragequitting over GW's business policies, it's that those policies are inherently bad. Bullying people who promote and sell GW products is a sign that GW is in desperation mode and lashing out at anyone they can find to blame. Insisting on keeping everything secret until pre-orders go up is a sign that GW lacks confidence in their products and is afraid that people won't buy them if they have time to think about it. Treating their retail partners as competition is a sign that GW needs every bit of short-term revenue, even when it comes at the cost of damaging their sales network in the long run. The overall picture is a company that can't grow through legitimate improvement and has to settle for extracting every bit of profit they can from their shrinking customer base.

Also, don't forget that the 1% are far more important than their raw numbers suggest. A lot of that 99% is kids buying a box of space marines and abandoning the hobby a week later, if you look at the actual community that GW depends on you'll probably find that a lot more than 1% either read forums or listen to people who do.


OK, so substitute 1% of customers for 1% of sales, bump it up to 2% or 5% or whatever, either way, I believe it's a minority of overall custom that's related to people reading forums (you're all going on about how much you hate GW already anyway, right? So what difference has this actually made? You were already alienated).

I don't want to indulge in that level of speculation regarding what the policies mean for the health of the business as I'm not really a business guy, but I do know that they believe what they're doing is shrewd and will make them more money - that's why they're doing it. It's this idea of getting hobbyists to buy what's coming out today, not save for what's coming out in two months. You can disagree with that (I sure do) but it's a pretty clear money-making scheme. If they completely exhaust us (and I know I'm going that way, particularly if the rumours re the Nid supplements are to be believed) and the business starts doing very badly, they'll change tack. It won't be because it's "morally good" to do that, it'll be because they think they can make more money that way.


You keep saying "you're not a business guy" and at the same time keep saying that negative online-vibes don't impact their bottom line.

I am not sure how these two mix up (unless you ARE a business guy with some hands-on evidence that supports your point).

Internet forums and blogs might be more 2003 than 2013, but people today, especially GW's core target group live on social media.

Bigger companies than GW, such as Starbucks and their "drip feeder", have been (almost) brought to their knees by a social media shitstorm and customer boycott. Politicians and CEO careers have ended due to Twitter and/or Facebook backlash. In early 2011, governments south of the Mediterranean toppled not in small parts thanks to Twitter.

Saying that an online backlash is irrelevant for ... all things considered ... a small-to-medium-sized company like GW is ludicrous.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 10:21:35


Post by: Bull0


I wouldn't use the term ludicrous to describe comparing GW to Starbucks, but I don't think they compare at all. Everybody's heard of Starbucks, the ubiquitousness of their brand makes them particularly vulnerable to social media outcries. Go and tweet about what GW are doing, start a hashtag, see if it goes viral. It definitely, definitely won't.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 10:29:32


Post by: jonolikespie


 Bull0 wrote:
I wouldn't use the term ludicrous to describe comparing GW to Starbucks, but I don't think they compare at all. Everybody's heard of Starbucks, the ubiquitousness of their brand makes them particularly vulnerable to social media outcries. Go and tweet about what GW are doing, start a hashtag, see if it goes viral. It definitely, definitely won't.


So doesn't that mean it is potentially MORE damaging to GW since they have such a small market to sell to?

Starbucks can shake off a PR hit much easier (no small thanks to the fact that they actually have a PR department) than GW can because everyone has heard of them.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 10:31:21


Post by: DarthOvious


 insaniak wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

The thing is, while this certainly happens in other industries (yes, phone developers don't like their competitors seeing what features they are building into their new phones, so that other phones currently in development don't have those same features and more added in to trump them) this really doesn't apply to GW. GW's main competitors aren't even in the same genre. Privateer isn't going to decide to add flyers to their game just because they see that GW is working on one. Battlefront isn't suddenly going to rush out a 28mm scale scifi game with skinny, pointy eared aliens in it just because we see a blurry photo of Eldar models due out in a month's time.

Added to which, GW deny that they even have any competition. Competing minature companies just aren't on their radar.

They have stated publicly why they try to clamp down on rumours and advance showing of their product, and it's nothing to do with competitors stealing their thunder. It's because despite all rational evidence to the contrary (including sales from their own subsidiaries), they believe that not knowing that something is coming makes people more excited about it (and this more likely to buy it) when it is released.

It's lunacy, plain and simple.


Well however GW does it, it is up to them how to market there product. The only thing you can do is write a letter detailing what you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Battlesong wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
I am not going to argue right or wrong here, but I think there are a lot of companies out there who don't like their pre-releases being leaked all over the internet. I suppose we could argue about the way in which GW is implementing it but GW have decided their current course and thats up to them to decide. A good example of what I am talking about is the leak of the Sony Ericsson Xperia Z1.

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/09/sonys-mobile-teams-anti-leaks-poster-campaign-leaks/

The reason why companies don't like leaks is because its gives their competitors an idea on what direction they are taking and they could lose a market advantage from doing so. For instance the news in regards to the leaked flyers could have influenced other wargame miniature companies to start making flyers of their own. So the development advantage of releasing these models is cut down a bit as it takes less time for competitors to catch up. I am not saying here that GW came up with the first flyers for a wargame, but I am just stating that their ideas (design wise & model wise) could influence competitors.

Some people do use alternatives sometimes to represent the models in their army so it is not unthinkable that this could result in a loss of sales. I am not saying that it does, but I am just saying its not an unreasonable claim to make.

However much can be said that GW should just focus more on stopping leaks from their company to begin with. It could also be argued if this is a realistic thing for GW to accomplish considering that their stuff gets playtested in advance before release. Perhaps they should change their playtesting policy instead to insure less leaks in the future. Many things can be argued here.


Don't even suggest that. Most likely if they think it's the playtesting method that's causing the leaks, they'll just stop playtesting altogether.


I wouldn't want them to do that either. They may have to just playtest in house with staff but perhaps that wouldn't be a good idea either.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 10:41:01


Post by: Bull0


 jonolikespie wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
I wouldn't use the term ludicrous to describe comparing GW to Starbucks, but I don't think they compare at all. Everybody's heard of Starbucks, the ubiquitousness of their brand makes them particularly vulnerable to social media outcries. Go and tweet about what GW are doing, start a hashtag, see if it goes viral. It definitely, definitely won't.


So doesn't that mean it is potentially MORE damaging to GW since they have such a small market to sell to?

Starbucks can shake off a PR hit much easier (no small thanks to the fact that they actually have a PR department) than GW can because everyone has heard of them.


No, I'm saying the opposite is true. The story propagates a lot faster for a bigger company with better brand awareness, and it gets picked up by news media (Starbucks' behaviour ended up national news in the UK alone, I assume other countries too), the story becomes totally unavoidable even for light users of social media or people that don't use social media at all. That just isn't going to happen with GW, like it or not.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 10:49:27


Post by: Zweischneid


 Bull0 wrote:
I wouldn't use the term ludicrous to describe comparing GW to Starbucks, but I don't think they compare at all. Everybody's heard of Starbucks, the ubiquitousness of their brand makes them particularly vulnerable to social media outcries. Go and tweet about what GW are doing, start a hashtag, see if it goes viral. It definitely, definitely won't.


Whether you want to compare Starbucks with GW or not is irrelevant.

What is important is to note that negative online-reactions do affect the bottom lines of companies, large or small. Splitting hairs over differences between different companies does not affect this basic insight. There are surely more commonalities between Starbucks and GW than between Starbucks and the government or Tunisia or former US presidential candidate Rick Santorum, all of which have been slammed hard by negative online vibes.

The assumption that GW - for some miraculous reason - is "just perfectly" in the middle of not-too-big and not-too-small to be exactly not affected (financially) by social media backlash is a highly specific hypothesis for which no evidence has been put forward.

The default assumption therefore should be that... like virtually everyone else, business, politics, private people ... Games Workshop can potentially be hurt - even and especially financially - by a social media backlash.

And the thing about a social media backlash is - it can be mercurial. It doesn't need to be on a company that is well known. United Airlines (that is, their shareholders) lost an estimated 180 Million ! to United Breaks Guitars. Breaking a Guitar probably isn't the worst thing United (much less any airline) has done. But it's the one that went viral. And United Airlines was "vulnerable" because they've refused to go into social media and had no ground-work laid out to do "damage control".

Beasts of War may not be the one that goes "viral" for GW, but something might at some point... and a generally "negatively pre-disposed" online community won't be an asset for them then.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:08:05


Post by: DarthOvious


 Peregrine wrote:
Brother Weasel wrote:
whats to stop a larger non garage company from doing the same thing?


Two things:

1) A larger company generally has a business plan that doesn't involve making "not GW" kits. PP isn't going to put the next Warmachine release on hold so they can make a not-centurion kit, especially since problem #2 almost guarantees that GW will get most of the potential sales for that kit.

2) The production methods used by garage kit companies don't scale up to mass production. Some random guy can throw together a sculpt and make a hundred resin casts of it pretty easily, but a larger company trying to make large-company-scale production runs needs to spend a lot more time on the design to justify making it, spend even more time on mold and production engineering, get it into their sales network, etc. You just can't do that kind of stuff fast enough to beat GW to market when they've already got the kits manufactured and sitting in the warehouse by the time the first pictures leak.


Excuse me but I don't how many times I have read posts by people who buy Mantic models to represent their Warhammer Fantasy army. I lost count.

Saying its not a problem so GW doesn't need to worry about it is not true. There are big companies out there who make their own games but are very similar to GW and a crossover can be achieved. There are posts on this very site that show this. Heck my friend with his Imperial Guard army used heads from Pig Iron in order to complete them. Now granted he usually buys from GW so its not a common thing for him but the point is I am merely showing it is possible to do such a thing and pleanty of people do for one reason or another. Sometimes people use other companies models because they don't want to supply GW anymore but still want to play the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
Don't Mantic also have a fairly established history of missing release dates by now?

That would seem to somewhat lessen the fear of them rushing something out to beat GW to the punch, I would think...


It doesn't work like that in buisness. A buisness does not rely on its competitors messing things up. The buisness I work doesn't do that and I don't think any other buisness would.


Dreadfleet was a disaster because it wasn't marketed. GW allowed the internet to speculate on what the mystery game was going to be, and then when it was finally announced it was something that very few people were interested in. Instead of working on that by announcing it earlier and using their big, expensive, flashy website and big, glossy 'hobby' magazine to promote this upcoming game, they left it to the last minute, dropped it on stores and said 'Here you go'... and the thoroughly underwhelmed masses voted with their wallets.

Dreadfleet could have been a successful splash release. But GW didn't do their homework first, and got burnt.


It was a disaster, but it was a disaster for the simple fact that noone wanted to buy it. It still didn't seel after being on the selves for a few months so I don't know what any pre-marketing would have done. If it was a good game then the lack of pre-marketing might have meant slow sales to begin with but people would have eventually bought it once word of mouth made its round.

Dreadfleet was simply a game that nobody wanted. It was more of a fantasy release, so it was more inline with their less popular game and even then it didn't quite match up anyway with the setting for it.

Spoiling Space Hulk wouldn't have hurt it in the slightest, because other than the botched marketting it was an example of GW doing it right. They re-released a game that people had been asking for, and they re-released it in a format that was just drop-dead gorgeous. Whether people were buying it just for the models or for the game, they were buying it. And they still would have bought it if they had known about it 3 months in advance.

And we know this because we did know about it 3 months in advance, despite GW trying to keep it quiet.


I honestly don't think anything would have made Dreadfleet sell. It just wasn't an interesting game. Space Hulk has a lot more history behind it with a larger core of die hard fans, so it sold like hot cakes.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:26:03


Post by: Bull0


 Zweischneid wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
I wouldn't use the term ludicrous to describe comparing GW to Starbucks, but I don't think they compare at all. Everybody's heard of Starbucks, the ubiquitousness of their brand makes them particularly vulnerable to social media outcries. Go and tweet about what GW are doing, start a hashtag, see if it goes viral. It definitely, definitely won't.


Whether you want to compare Starbucks with GW or not is irrelevant.

What is important is to note that negative online-reactions do affect the bottom lines of companies, large or small. Splitting hairs over differences between different companies does not affect this basic insight. There are surely more commonalities between Starbucks and GW than between Starbucks and the government or Tunisia or former US presidential candidate Rick Santorum, all of which have been slammed hard by negative online vibes.


So you compared Starbucks to GW, but any discussion of how relevant or valid that comparison is isn't relevant? Gotcha.

Zweischneid wrote:

The assumption that GW - for some miraculous reason - is "just perfectly" in the middle of not-too-big and not-too-small to be exactly not affected (financially) by social media backlash is a highly specific hypothesis for which no evidence has been put forward.



I didn't put that hypothesis forward. I said GW are a lot smaller and less well-known than Starbucks. Do I have to cite evidence to prove GW is smaller than Starbucks?

Zweischneid wrote:

The default assumption therefore should be that... like virtually everyone else, business, politics, private people ... Games Workshop can potentially be hurt - even and especially financially - by a social media backlash.

Right, because I said that they're totally invulnerable to it, just like I said that it's because they're exactly the right size to be invulnerable and not that they're just significantly smaller and less well-known than Starbucks. You know, I'd be a lot more inclined to engage with you on this if you argued with what I actually said instead of putting significantly stupider words in my mouth so you can argue with those instead.



Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:33:37


Post by: Zweischneid


 Bull0 wrote:


So you compared Starbucks to GW, but any discussion of how relevant or valid that comparison is isn't relevant? Gotcha.



No. I named one well known example of a company hurt (financially) by a social media backlash, because you claimed online opinions are irrelevant to the bottom line.

You do understand the differences between an example and a comparison?




Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:38:24


Post by: zedmeister


 Zweischneid wrote:

Beasts of War may not be the one that goes "viral" for GW, but something might at some point... and a generally "negatively pre-disposed" online community won't be an asset for them then.


I think the Spots the Space Marine debacle came close.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:39:13


Post by: Zweischneid


 Bull0 wrote:
Right, because I said that they're totally invulnerable to it, just like I said that it's because they're exactly the right size to be invulnerable and not that they're just significantly smaller and less well-known than Starbucks. You know, I'd be a lot more inclined to engage with you on this if you argued with what I actually said instead of putting significantly stupider words in my mouth so you can argue with those instead.



Sure thing... here is what you said


 Bull0 wrote:

I believe it's a minority of overall custom that's related to people reading forums


To which I said, while technically true for forums, this is not true for social media in general and companies are often, repeatedly and regularly hurt be social media backlash. Because a sufficiently large percentage of the customer base of any company these days use social media, and certainly so for companies focusing on "young people" (I guess a company selling bedpans and hearing aids might be less vulnerable).

Example: Starbucks. Or United Airlines if you prefer. Or "NMAWorldEdition" if you prefer small, unknown companies. All of them just examples (not comparisons... ya know, as in what I actually said instead of the significantly stupider words you've been putting in my mouth so you can argue with those instead.).


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:49:54


Post by: Pacific


 Bull0 wrote:

OK, so substitute 1% of customers for 1% of sales, bump it up to 2% or 5% or whatever, either way, I believe it's a minority of overall custom that's related to people reading forums (you're all going on about how much you hate GW already anyway, right? So what difference has this actually made? You were already alienated).


Forum users are undoubtedly a very minor part of the overall sales numbers. But, I think to then say that they are irrelevant is a different thing altogether, conversely I think the hardcore fans can be viewed as an indicator for customer reaction to products and policies, almost as a kind of litmus test. To use one example, consider that so many of the more dedicated fans are bemoaning the prices, how much more of an affect is that likely to have on the casual purchaser? The lack of marketing, the difficulty that independent stores have when dealing with GW, the lack of communication with fans.. all of it is reducing the impact of the company for what is already a niche product, and is serving to alienate all but the most thick-skinned of fans.

And it doesn't seem to matter how well-intentioned a fan you are. We've seen several really dedicated fansites be shut down, guys that really love their pastime to the point where they put a fair chunk of their lives into making that community. Others, previously fun places to hang out and discuss shared interest, get turned into timid little groups of fearful sycophants, where the mods are forced to rule with an iron fist lest that C&D letter find its way in the post to you. Quite often, it's because these groups have used the word 'Warhammer' or 'Bloodbowl' in their web URL, or they had the audacity to post some pics of a forthcoming release that had found its way to the internet (because they were excited, and wanted to talk about it). What has happened with BoW is one example of this.

I would say this kind of behaviour makes a massive difference - the 'core' of forum users, those for whom it's a major pastime, are the driving force at the heart of it. When you don't have any external advertising (other than an increasingly minor high street presence), you rely on word of mouth and for those hardcore fans to do the legwork for you, helping organise tournaments, campaigns, events - people like the Beasts of War team who enthusiastically promote GW's new releases. I can completely understand the need for legal framework, for controlling your IP and information, but it is a very dangerous game that GW are playing - they are actually stymieing their most fervent supporters. They have already gone some way to eroding the masses of good will they have built up over the years, and this is another step in that direction.

The upper-middle class kid (so it has become) whose parent spends £200-300 at Christmas for them on GW products is undoubtedly the bulk revenue spinner, but that is driven in part by the fan communities - the places like Beasts of War and Dakka, that help create the awesome material that people see when they type a search into google images. If you start dictating terms to those places in such harsh terms, you start to lose the endearment of your core fanbase, you create a negative atmosphere, destroy the enthusiasm of your conscientious fans (Dakka I think is relatively good-willed and prosaic compared to a lot of places) and you help drive customers towards competitors.

And this isn't just postulating about cause/effect of things yet to happen, this is taking place right now; there is hard data, and something you will no doubt pick up on as you spend more time here and read around; the year on year reduced unit sales (especially in the core markets), the continual cost-cuttings and lack of expansion, reduced internet traffic and searches, the reduction in official events and input into those events. More importantly, looking at the wider picture, this is taking place in an industry that has grown an estimated 15-20% in each of the past few years, indicating GW is controlling a smaller piece of the pie.

Finally though, I will concede that a lot of the posters here probably are alienated, and most likely not the target demographic for GW any more. But, it's the fact that so many of us have seen the transformation take place, of small, personable company that cared about its fans, to transnational behemoth (and all of the things that brings with it) - you pine for the things you have lost, and what you would like to see again, much more than if you had never had those things in the first place. It's not about 'hating', it's about wanting GW to be a better company, understanding the score, and having the backbone to say something about it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:52:31


Post by: Herzlos


 Bull0 wrote:
I wouldn't use the term ludicrous to describe comparing GW to Starbucks, but I don't think they compare at all. Everybody's heard of Starbucks, the ubiquitousness of their brand makes them particularly vulnerable to social media outcries. Go and tweet about what GW are doing, start a hashtag, see if it goes viral. It definitely, definitely won't.


Assuming, of course, that none of the twitter followers are aware of GW. But since the original tweeter is on a wargaming forum it's fairly likely that some reasonable percentage of social links are to other wargamers, there's a pretty high chance of it making a difference.

If none of the followers knew what GW was, then it'd make no difference, but the odds are it'd spread like wildfire, particularly since GW already has a pretty bad reputation amongst longer term gamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarthOvious wrote:

Don't even suggest that. Most likely if they think it's the playtesting method that's causing the leaks, they'll just stop playtesting altogether.


I wouldn't want them to do that either. They may have to just playtest in house with staff but perhaps that wouldn't be a good idea either.


They already stopped external playtesting to avoid leaks. Couldn't you tell?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 11:56:59


Post by: Kilkrazy


I broadly concur with Pacific's hypothesis.

TLR version:

Veteran forum users are a minority of the overall GW user base but their influence is much greater than their number, due to being older brothers, club members and evangelists for the company's games.

Pissing off the veterans dilutes the valuable, "earned" marketing that GW partly depend on for sales growth.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:02:50


Post by: DarthOvious


 Zweischneid wrote:
 Bull0 wrote:
Right, because I said that they're totally invulnerable to it, just like I said that it's because they're exactly the right size to be invulnerable and not that they're just significantly smaller and less well-known than Starbucks. You know, I'd be a lot more inclined to engage with you on this if you argued with what I actually said instead of putting significantly stupider words in my mouth so you can argue with those instead.



Sure thing... here is what you said


 Bull0 wrote:

I believe it's a minority of overall custom that's related to people reading forums


To which I said, while technically true for forums, this is not true for social media in general and companies are often, repeatedly and regularly hurt be social media backlash. Because a sufficiently large percentage of the customer base of any company these days use social media, and certainly so for companies focusing on "young people" (I guess a company selling bedpans and hearing aids might be less vulnerable).

Example: Starbucks. Or United Airlines if you prefer. Or "NMAWorldEdition" if you prefer small, unknown companies. All of them just examples (not comparisons... ya know, as in what I actually said instead of the significantly stupider words you've been putting in my mouth so you can argue with those instead.).


At the end of the day it depends on whether the media care enough to report it. I don't think the media will care that GW is telling companies how they want their products sold on. Its just not a big deal and I don't think the public would even care.

Think of it this way. Many food companies produce food items and then sell those items through the use of supermarkets. For all intents and purposes the food items belong to the food company and the supermarkets sell it on their behalf for a profit. Mostly because suppermarkets are smart enough to know that certain people like to buy certain brands. Now lets take an example, lets say Walkers Crisps. Now lets say that Walkers Crisps change their trade agreement with the Supermarkets and tell them they wanted certain parameters to be maintained while selling on their products, otherwise they wouldn't stock them in future. Would anybody really care? Would anybody look at Walkers and say "What an evil bunch of whatsits". They might look on and think its a weird thing to do. They might think "Well how are they going to sell their items otherwise?" but in the long run I don't think people would really care.

At the end of the day, its GWs product to sell and they can do whatever they want with it as long as they don't break any rules. People can look on and think they are a bully, some might consider it weird and think its a suicide move and some others might think its an unethical thing to do. However not enough people are going to care either way or another. Idon't think its the type of thing that would really hit the headlines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote:

They already stopped external playtesting to avoid leaks. Couldn't you tell?


Is this the reason that their current codex releases are not a balanced article? It would make sense.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:11:25


Post by: Zweischneid


 DarthOvious wrote:


At the end of the day it depends on whether the media care enough to report it. I don't think the media will care that GW is telling companies how they want their products sold on. Its just not a big deal and I don't think the public would even care.


But that is the fun with social media.

You don't need to go through a central media hub to have the news spread. It spreads to the people concerned / interested via "social" "networks". If / when mainstream media picks these things up, it's usually after the fact. To report that a shitstorm happened, not to instigate it.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:20:55


Post by: DarthOvious


 Zweischneid wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:


At the end of the day it depends on whether the media care enough to report it. I don't think the media will care that GW is telling companies how they want their products sold on. Its just not a big deal and I don't think the public would even care.


But that is the fun with social media.

You don't need to go through a central media hub to have the news spread. It spreads to the people concerned / interested via "social" "networks". If / when mainstream media picks these things up, it's usually after the fact. To report that a shitstorm happened, not to instigate it.


I agree that GWs profit margins can be hit with social media like Daka and various other internet outlets but I just don't think that the large media cooperations will take notice. I'm not expecting The Sun or The Daily Star to do an article on it if you know what I mean and report a national scandal.

Unfortunately, the powers that be want to treat GW like a buiness, like a big buiness but in reality I don't think they are. Its all to easy for them to lose sales and suffer from customer dissatifaction and also bad economy. The tactics they are using are more suitable for the big guns who won't lose many loss of sales for what they do and not for GW.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:28:18


Post by: Bull0


I mean, I want to make it clear that I don't agree with what GW are doing, and I agree it's sad. I just read a lot of posts that threw terms like "illogical" "nonsensical" and the like out there, in regards to what they're doing, and wanted to be sure that you understood that what they're doing makes perfect sense if taken purely as a heartless business decision. Sure, it might not work for them - we'll see, in time. I've said that too.

I'd still be very wary of taking forum communities as some kind of clear litmus test for overall public perception of the brand, and definitely don't agree that you're ever likely to be able to create a "social media shitstorm" that GW need to take seriously over this, but I do concede that there's probably some limited correlation there, on specific issues such as price, quality, etc. If we were going to see some people power pressure going on, it would've been one of the annual price gouges, or finecast, or the Spots thing, or the CHS lawsuit, or whatever. The way they treat trade partners? Come on, that's niche. I'd be willing to bet there's a good chunk of people, even on Dakka, that don't really care much.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:34:59


Post by: The Division Of Joy


Well, if the forum mirrors the paying publics opinion as closely as some on here say, we should probably start buying up GW stuff before it closes for good.

Or it's a business with a limited customer base, and it actually makes sense to restrict the third party aspect of sales. the more direct sales traffic, the more profit.

No company should stand for their IP being leaked out before they want. concept artists, sculpture artists, painters, graphic designers all work hard to bring a product to life and all want it to be displayed in all it's glory. I know that GW are the conduit that all evil flows through on here, but it's worth looking at things from the other side sometimes


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:40:58


Post by: DarthOvious


The Division Of Joy wrote:
Well, if the forum mirrors the paying publics opinion as closely as some on here say, we should probably start buying up GW stuff before it closes for good.

Or it's a business with a limited customer base, and it actually makes sense to restrict the third party aspect of sales. the more direct sales traffic, the more profit.

No company should stand for their IP being leaked out before they want. concept artists, sculpture artists, painters, graphic designers all work hard to bring a product to life and all want it to be displayed in all it's glory. I know that GW are the conduit that all evil flows through on here, but it's worth looking at things from the other side sometimes


From a personal perspective from the two GW stores I go to, the people there don't have a anti-GW attitude. I understand that some people are unhappy with them and their buisness decisions and I know some people who also display that down at my local gaming group who don't play in store. So I see both sides of the coin.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:44:28


Post by: Zweischneid


 DarthOvious wrote:
. I'm not expecting The Sun or The Daily Star to do an article on it if you know what I mean and report a national scandal.


About the Beasts of War thing in particular? Probably not.

About some potential hick-up that goes to GW's detriment? Sure they would, if the angle is interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 12:51:45


Post by: Bull0


 Zweischneid wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
. I'm not expecting The Sun or The Daily Star to do an article on it if you know what I mean and report a national scandal.


About the Beasts of War thing in particular? Probably not.

About some potential hick-up that goes to GW's detriment? Sure they would, if the angle is interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003


Yeah, remember how that brought down the company?


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 13:00:39


Post by: Krinsath


 Bull0 wrote:
 Zweischneid wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
. I'm not expecting The Sun or The Daily Star to do an article on it if you know what I mean and report a national scandal.


About the Beasts of War thing in particular? Probably not.

About some potential hick-up that goes to GW's detriment? Sure they would, if the angle is interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003


Yeah, remember how that brought down the company?


It generated a great deal of ill-will among the people I know who previously had never heard of GW. Even those that did know who they were and may have enjoyed the video games revised their opinions sharply downwards. That's not going to hit their bottom line initially, but the impression of GW in the public's eye is now "greedy idiot bullies." While some on Dakka will tell you this impression is 100% accurate, it's probably not what GW wanted to go for. These are people who are now not at all interested in becoming GW customers, and likely if any of their friends mention looking into the hobby they will be told about this incident. That is the insidious nature of social media; you don't actually see the viper that bites you.

GW shut down their corporate Facebook presence in the wake of that kerfuffle, and became even more insular as they were hit by actual public backlash. It undoubtedly displeased their investors as well, and likely had a bigger effect on what GW does than any amount of forum threads.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 13:01:34


Post by: Herzlos


 DarthOvious wrote:

Is this the reason that their current codex releases are not a balanced article? It would make sense.


It's more like the reason that the books are filled with obvious mistakes like the DA codex not having rules for the LE interrogator chaplain, or the wargear entries being plain wrong. Things that the customers spot/ask almost immediately, and would have been caught by an external* play test.


* i.e. not tested by the guys that wrote it. It needs to be tested by people who don't know much about it; that's a universal. In my job, I can't review my own stuff and get much better results if I get a non-invested party to look at it. It's just human nature.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 13:04:33


Post by: Zweischneid


 Bull0 wrote:

Yeah, remember how that brought down the company?


GW stocks fell quite significantly January and February, hitting the annual low in early March. Not as clear a correlation as the United Airlines stock-drop, but it may well have contributed.

It didn't "bring the company down", but it did (!) cost their shareholders a few hundred-thousand GBP.

GW is a publicly traded company. Bad publicity does hit the shareholders where it hurts.... in the wallet.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 13:14:24


Post by: Conrad Turner


Darth,

Wouldn't it be, given GW's recent reported behaviour, like Walkers saying "Supermarket 'A' can select enough of our product that they can freely choose which varieties they stock, and how much, because they are ordering way over our self-imposed minimum quantities. Supermarket 'A' will be told of upcoming competitions, promotions, and other product changes up to 3 months ahead of release date. Corner shop 'Z', however, does not order enough so the following conditions must be met.

1. Corner shop 'Z' is not allowed to sell any "Roast Chicken" flavour, our most popular, until they have sold x packets of "Cheese and Onion" as that is the flavour we want to push.
2. On release of a new flavour, corner shop 'Z' will be required to place an order within 2 weeks of flavour notification, but will not be suppled with advertising until 2 weeks before release date, and may not use this advertising or otherwise notify potential customers until 5 days before release date. Minimum order quantity applies, but orders may not be fulfilled in their entirety. (Order 6 cases, we may drop off 4 bags.)
3. No corner shop will sell multipacks to people suspected of splitting these down for re-sale, nor will they sell single packs to persons suspected of selling on single crisps. (condition not enforcable for supermarkets)
4. Any corner shop found to be in breach of these conditions wil forfeit status and will be required to buy product at higher cost for a period not less than 6 months


P.S. That goes double for corner shops tenously connected to pidgeon fanciers who can use homing pidgeons to send messages to other areas about rumored new flavours, pack designs, ad campaigns, etc. - added mid-year to stomp down on imagined problemI find it inexplicable that GW seem to be doing all they can to destroy their own reputation, margin, market share, etc. I'm certainly moving over to Kettle Chips in future!

When I started, they used to print the order codes for the latest models in the back of the WD every month. Not just of the whole models, but of the pieces. Converting stuff was just a matter of phoning them, giving them the codes for the bits you wanted, paying them, and they turned up in the post. Now whilst I am fully aware of the problems that caused them, and the fact that you just can't do that with Styrene frames unless you sell the entire frame, how many people are seriously going to buy 'x' number of packs to get the 'y' number of parts they need? So bits sites sprang up. Not content with having people outside of GW taking the risk that certain bits won't sell, GW wants to stop all this trade - oblivious that whilst people may be prepared to buy a set or two of Valk engines for a completely unrelated modelling project, £40-£80 for three or four engines and a load of (to them) useless bits is way out of reality.

And how many GD winners in the last 10 years have been Out-Of-Box models with standard posing? Not many, I bet. (OK, maybe a glut from this year's Warhammer Skink, but in general I believe you need a converted model to stand much of a chance.)

The reality of the situation GW are seeming to want to put themselves in, seems counter-productive to me. Allow bits sellers and you encourage imagination and creativity whilst expanding your target demographic through social media sites, like this one, as people share their creations made from <gasp> your product! after all, if I go to a bits site to buy the engines I want, where did he get the kit from? So if GW's finances rely on getting every penny profit from every single kit, someone needs to point out that 5% on 100 sales is better than 7% on 20 sales.

As to their idea that impulse buying is the key to their success, that would work better - and indeed did work better - when you could get a rhino for £5 or 3 for £10. With the cost of the stuff they produce now - and it is undoubtedly better quality than the RTB01 era - running to anything up to £70 for something you may need multiples of in an army, I don't know of many people who could honestly say they could afford to drop even the cost of one as an 'Impulse' purchase. I recently had to replace my portable DVD player, and it cost £70 to get one with a bigger screen and better functions, but I knew the old one was playing up so started to save £1 coins. By the time I had to actually look for the replacement, I had more than enough to do so. I could comfortably look for a replacement, judge each on it's merits, and make an informed decision.

I truly believe that GW make some of the best models in '28mm' out there. I have both Tau and Necron armies, and would have loved to update the both of them. But I cannot bring myself to buy a single tomb spider or Riptide as I believe that the GW management are trying to comit financial suicide - as has been ponted out previously GW is growing by a few percent in a market growing by much larger amounts, even in this economy - and I believe anything that drags out their demise at this point is just being cruel.


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 13:18:56


Post by: The Division Of Joy


 DarthOvious wrote:
The Division Of Joy wrote:
Well, if the forum mirrors the paying publics opinion as closely as some on here say, we should probably start buying up GW stuff before it closes for good.

Or it's a business with a limited customer base, and it actually makes sense to restrict the third party aspect of sales. the more direct sales traffic, the more profit.

No company should stand for their IP being leaked out before they want. concept artists, sculpture artists, painters, graphic designers all work hard to bring a product to life and all want it to be displayed in all it's glory. I know that GW are the conduit that all evil flows through on here, but it's worth looking at things from the other side sometimes


From a personal perspective from the two GW stores I go to, the people there don't have a anti-GW attitude. I understand that some people are unhappy with them and their buisness decisions and I know some people who also display that down at my local gaming group who don't play in store. So I see both sides of the coin.


I don't see it at the club I use, or at the store I visit. The general consensous is 'Don't like it? Don't buy it'

There are plenty of games that exist at different paypoints. It's no different to moaning at the price of a new premium car, when there are several options at different levels of value.

I drive a VW Golf, I can't afford a VW Scirroco. I don't moan that the Scirocco is out of my price range, as VW make cars of various values. And if VW raises prices above my limit? Well, there are plenty of other makers out there waiting for me to switch brand. And I pay a premium for my current choice because they are considered better quality and i like them. If I ever got to a stage I was moaning about how much I was paying, and that outweighed the love I have for the brand then boo, hello SEAT or Kia


Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats @ 2013/10/08 13:31:55


Post by: DarthOvious


 Zweischneid wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
. I'm not expecting The Sun or The Daily Star to do an article on it if you know what I mean and report a national scandal.


About the Beasts of War thing in particular? Probably not.

About some potential hick-up that goes to GW's detriment? Sure they would, if the angle is interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003


Agreed, I'm just talking about this particular incident to do with contracts with the independent retailers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:

Is this the reason that their current codex releases are not a balanced article? It would make sense.


It's more like the reason that the books are filled with obvious mistakes like the DA codex not having rules for the LE interrogator chaplain, or the wargear entries being plain wrong. Things that the customers spot/ask almost immediately, and would have been caught by an external* play test.


Hmmm, I'm intrigued. I need to review my Dark Angels codex when I get home now. Bear in mind I haven't noticed it because I don't actually play Dark Angels but I bought the codex because I was considering starting them, but I never really got a good look at it.


* i.e. not tested by the guys that wrote it. It needs to be tested by people who don't know much about it; that's a universal. In my job, I can't review my own stuff and get much better results if I get a non-invested party to look at it. It's just human nature.


I thought this could still be done inhouse though. You just need other employees other than the writers to test it, but of course this would take them off their work and would slow other parts of the buisness.