Good. Even playing Marines it was far too good a rule.
The temptation to grab a load of flame dudes for maximum burn is strong for the Firestorm Assault Force.
RaptorusRex wrote: I like it. OOM switching to Hit re-rolls only is a bit of a blow, but I like the Salamanders and the 1st Company detachments.
It does feel like a bit of bait-and-switch, especially considering the 'combat patrol' version had it as hit rolls only already.
Here's the preview version to suck people in, and here's the real version they already had written.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yikes... that 1st Company rule makes the Crusher Stampede look competitive.
Yeah... once per battle is certainly a choice.
The Firestorm is much better.
And the video shows the Anvil Siege Force (at 0:44) which globally grants [heavy] to all weapons, and some bonus to weapons that already have [heavy] (the video jumps before showing all the text).
Firestorm also has a strat that allows a unit to disembark and shoot at an enemy that targets their transport, in the enemy turn. Risky, but potentially ridiculous for setting things up for your turn.
Voss wrote: Yeah... once per battle is certainly a choice.
"Hey kids! Do you want your Terminators to benefit from 3 different potential rules that impact them for an entire turn against every target, or a single rule that lets them really kill one target once per game? As a sweetener you can give a character a 5+ FNP, which doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if he's leading a unit, which he will be, because solo-characters without Lone Operative are a liability in 10th and most of their special rules don't function when they're not leading a unit!"
Mostly feels bad at the moment after Deathwatch got taken out back before. We'll have to see how the codex changes things, but the DW datasheets are starting to feel real bad about now.
Having all weapons gain the Assault keyword is very significant. If that detachment has solid Enhancements and Stratagems, it could be a real go to option.
I'm of the opinion that the Combat Doctines detachment rule should have been the Army Rule to start with. Then give Oath of Moment to the First Company Detachment as the detachment rule, to represent that they are deployed enmasse to counter a specific threat.
Voss wrote: Yeah... once per battle is certainly a choice.
"Hey kids! Do you want your Terminators to benefit from 3 different potential rules that impact them for an entire turn against every target, or a single rule that lets them really kill one target once per game? As a sweetener you can give a character a 5+ FNP, which doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if he's leading a unit, which he will be, because solo-characters without Lone Operative are a liability in 10th and most of their special rules don't function when they're not leading a unit!"
so? many armies have a FNP type enhancement? plus the 5+++ can be given to the entire unit once per game. which is pretty good.
glad about the OOM change... rerolls slow the game down and just lends itself to unintended stuff like fishing for dev wounds.
Voss wrote: Yeah... once per battle is certainly a choice.
"Hey kids! Do you want your Terminators to benefit from 3 different potential rules that impact them for an entire turn against every target, or a single rule that lets them really kill one target once per game? As a sweetener you can give a character a 5+ FNP, which doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if he's leading a unit, which he will be, because solo-characters without Lone Operative are a liability in 10th and most of their special rules don't function when they're not leading a unit!"
so? many armies have a FNP type enhancement? plus the 5+++ can be given to the entire unit once per game. which is pretty good.
Its the mechanism involved. As a character, FnP isn't going to come up until his unit is dead. For the unit, popping it in the shooting phase means hoping you correctly anticipated that the enemy is going to shoot at that unit more. If they don't, its wasted.
glad about the OOM change... rerolls slow the game down and just lends itself to unintended stuff like fishing for dev wounds.
That's true... but its really weird that they got a trial-run of reroll wounds when the Leviathan box and the combat patrol makes it clear that this was the intended version all along. Given the lead time for printing, this change can't be in response to post launch feedback and live games, just the usual 'throw gak at the walls and see if it sticks' development.
Dawnbringer wrote: I'm of the opinion that the Combat Doctines detachment rule should have been the Army Rule to start with. Then give Oath of Moment to the First Company Detachment as the detachment rule, to represent that they are deployed enmasse to counter a specific threat.
about what I expected sadly. In addition to thsese two I've also heard some rumors about what the IF inspired detachment is (I also heard in said rumors Oath of moment was getting a nerf so it makes me think ithis was accurate)
apparently the IF detachment gives "heavy" to ALL ranged weapons,and rangedd weapons that are already heavy gain +1 to wound if stationary. So I expect it'll be "healthy compeition" for the gladius at least. but yeah I don't see ANY reason to bother with the 1st company detachment, I'd rather just have the gladius I think
LunarSol wrote: I assume they mean going OC2. I'm not sure taking more than 3 of any Phobos unit is particularly noteworthy.
There's literally a Vanguard Company, consisting of 100 Marines outfitted exclusively in Phobos, that is the 10th Company now.
Raven Guard field their 1st and 2nd Company elements pretty regularly in Phobos as well.
They should, and Battleline should be a special rule that gives +1OC and allows you to take that unit 6 times in a list rather than 3, but that's not the way 10th works. And nothing should be Battleline by default as it should be determined solely by the detachment you've chosen, but, again, that's not how 10th works.
So a 10th Company force will have Intercessors and Tactical Squads as Battleline in the same way that a 1st Company force will have Intercessors and Tactical Squads as Battleline.
Additionally, this paints a grim picture:
I'm especially fond of the removal of the Primaris Company Champion as a separate choice.
They should, and Battleline should be a special rule that gives +1OC and allows you to take that unit 6 times in a list rather than 3, but that's not the way 10th works. And nothing should be Battleline by default as it should be determined solely by the detachment you've chosen, but, again, that's not how 10th works.
So a 10th Company force will have Intercessors and Tactical Squads as Battleline in the same way that a 1st Company force will have Intercessors and Tactical Squads as Battleline.
They love pulling from other games so much, maybe they should take a hint and port Rites of War.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I wonder if the Deathwing Detatchment will be better than this 1st CO Detatchment when the DA get their book.
for dark angel fans I sure hope so.
It'd struggle to be worse. It's hard to do worse than a pair of highly situational once-per-game abilities that came out as okay-ish even with perfect usage in ideal situations. And +3 strength to a single power sword isn't exactly blowing anyone's mind.
I'm especially fond of the removal of the Primaris Company Champion as a separate choice.
That isn't all that grim. A lot we already knew about (the various units getting squatted), but according to that, characters are now just their rank. Now distinction between 'Captain' and 'Primaris Captain.' Same for Lt., Chaplain pr Librarian. That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat. Just use whatever model you have/like. Reiver and phobos LTs are the only real exception.
Really, same for relic terminators vs terminators (and the lack of separate 'primaris terminators). Just... use them as terminators.
Only real kick is Old dreads (except venerable), but that's something we already knew.
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
I'd be more sad about that if the space marine melee options were worth writing home about and if the new primaris jump captain didn't have everything worth taking.
Because, really... Bemoaning a lack of combi-weapons on a character? In 10th? That's just complaining to complain.
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
I'd be more sad about that if the space marine melee options were worth writing home about and if the new primaris jump captain didn't have everything worth taking.
Because, really... Bemoaning a lack of combi-weapons on a character? In 10th? That's just complaining to complain.
Finally, a reason to make peace with the lack of weapon options. GW just made sure they were all worthless.
Man, the Landspeeders going to Legends is going to hurt. Makes me wonder what they'll do with the weird Dark Angels variants.
I had converted up a Primaris Outrider attack bike. Looks like it will now be a counts-as Invader ATV.
Relic terminators? I had some converted up using Tortuga Bay minis. The only odd duck will be the one with an autocannon (Inceptor heavy bolter arm with autocannon barrel). I guess he could just count as an assault cannon.
In 20 years playing I've never used command squads. Looks like I'll have to now to save a few minis.
I guess my Terminators' lightening claws are now power fists (except for the sergeant which is a sword), the autocannon is an assault cannon, the plasma blaster is a storm bolter, and the grenade harness doesn't exist.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I wonder if the Deathwing Detatchment will be better than this 1st CO Detatchment when the DA get their book.
for dark angel fans I sure hope so.
One would certainly hope. Here's hoping the unshown Detachments help make up for it. Though the FIrestorm one seems neat enough.
Here's the rumour that was floating around a few days before this WarCom article was posted. A separate post also said that Oath was changing exactly as previewed.
6 new detachments, 6 strats, 4 enhancements each. AOC in every detachment
1st Company - Veterans and terminators.
Stormlance - "White Scars", focuses on mounted units. Advance and charge, and assault after falling back.
Vanguard Spearhead - "Raven Guard". This is the scout/phobos detachment.
Firestorm Assault force - "Salamander", focuses on infantry and transports?
Ironstorm Spearhead - "Iron Hands", Vehicles and walkers
Anvil Siege Force - "Imperial fists". Gunline + support. All ranged weapons are heavy, and if they are already heavy they get +1 wound when stationary.
leopard wrote: Youngest with his Blood Angels is essentially fuming about this, he does have some NuMarines but the bulk of what he has is Mk VII armour stuff
Still I had to laugh, not that this actually helped
leopard wrote: Youngest with his Blood Angels is essentially fuming about this, he does have some NuMarines but the bulk of what he has is Mk VII armour stuff
Still I had to laugh, not that this actually helped
time to switch to horus Heresy I guess
Funny you mention that, with the whole "legends" thing a few months ago he wanted a pair of Whirlwinds, because he likes his cheese mature, and was quite ready to go an buy a pair of them. he decided instead to go looking for STL files and as such has a pair of Deimos pattern ones now that cost a lot less
GW lose out, which is entirely their choice, and he got a pair of models he is quite happy with as his small Heresy era force grows
I'm especially fond of the removal of the Primaris Company Champion as a separate choice.
That isn't all that grim. A lot we already knew about (the various units getting squatted), but according to that, characters are now just their rank. Now distinction between 'Captain' and 'Primaris Captain.' Same for Lt., Chaplain pr Librarian. That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat. Just use whatever model you have/like. Reiver and phobos LTs are the only real exception.
Really, same for relic terminators vs terminators (and the lack of separate 'primaris terminators). Just... use them as terminators.
Only real kick is Old dreads (except venerable), but that's something we already knew.
I see this as all good news. Nothing in there is a surprise and I like the primaris title removal. It’s time to accept primaris ARE the marines now.
I’m good with removing the distinction, but would like to keep what legacy options we can. And some of the new primaris toys are not good swaps for the old stuff.
We’ll see. But I’m expecting more of my collection to go inactive with this change then any prior update.
Astmeister wrote: I wonder if they will also remove them fluff wise? They made a big "Cawl did some cyborg enhancements to them" storyline for them.
I suspect just quietly sweep things under the rug and not mention them. Part of the mythos of SM is how they venerate their wargear. Just because you got some new toys the ones that have served for millennia are not just going tossed on the trashheap.
Eventually that gear is going to get shelved though.
Firstborn losses are permanent now and slowly over time the older members of a Chapter are going to die or cross the Rubicon Primaris.
The armour will get put in storage or a reliquary.
I don't mind removal of some units, almost all of them can be played as counts as for something else, and space marines had way too many datasheets anyway. They need to get rid of intercessor squads and make a primaris tactical squad though, I hate all the special weapon options being their own units
James12345 wrote: I don't mind removal of some units, almost all of them can be played as counts as for something else, and space marines had way too many datasheets anyway. They need to get rid of intercessor squads and make a primaris tactical squad though, I hate all the special weapon options being their own units
I love it. More armies need dedicated units.
And they need to stop wussing around with the 5 model "standard". Eliminators were a great concept, and should be echoed elsewhere.
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
Wargear changes in a new codex?!?!??!?!??! BUT THAT"S NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HERSTORY OF FOREVER!>!<!><!><!>
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
Wargear changes in a new codex?!?!??!?!??! BUT THAT"S NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HERSTORY OF FOREVER!>!<!><!><!>
every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
Wargear changes in a new codex?!?!??!?!??! BUT THAT"S NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HERSTORY OF FOREVER!>!<!><!><!>
every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
It's objectively not for the best, as it's a problem purely created by GW alongside it's blatantly obvious solution.
Having a single "captain" and "lieutenant" entry, and then stuffing it with options, would eliminate the need to squat load outs and minimize the insane bloat. Even with the new Characters As Buffs model they could just copy what HH does with the various Consuls so that you could have fifty shades of lieutenant and have it take up less than half the amount of pages.
BrianDavion wrote: every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
You needn't reply to people who are being intentionally disingenuous. Erjack knows exactly what I meant, but chose to misrepresent what I was saying instead of actually engaging with the topic, and of course did so in his typical endlessly insulting and exaggerated tone. It's a core reason why I don't engage with him.
My point, which he understood and ignored for the sake of attacking me, is that the change from "Captain & Primaris Captain" is only good thing if you believe that you've lost nothing in the transition. When we just have "Captain", and suddenly the only options Captains have are:
... then suddenly a lot of models go bye bye (the aforementioned Thunder Hammers, regular CCWs, Lightning Claws, Combi-Weapons, and so on) and suddenly the change from "Captain + Primaris Captain" to "Captain" doesn't seem like such a good thing.
Now I suspect that the new Captain in the Command Squad kit will have some more variations possible, so I fully expect (for example) Plasma Pistol + Sword to be a possibility. But I won't be surprised at all if that kit contains zero Thunder Hammers or Lightning Claws, meaning that those options will vanish from the Codex.
That's a problem, even if some people here like to pretend that it isn't.
(And this is before we get to things like Bike Captains, which presumably won't be a thing as they don't have a miniature, meaning the only character that can ever lead bikes will be the Chaplain - I hope the Dark Angel release rectifies this and we get a full Outrider kit and a new Bike Captain... and Libby, 'cause why not?).
H.B.M.C. wrote: ...
... then suddenly a lot of models go bye bye (the aforementioned Thunder Hammers, regular CCWs, Lightning Claws, Combi-Weapons, and so on) and suddenly the change from "Captain + Primaris Captain" to "Captain" doesn't seem like such a good thing.
Now I suspect that the new Captain in the Command Squad kit will have some more variations possible, so I fully expect (for example) Plasma Pistol + Sword to be a possibility. But I won't be surprised at all if that kit contains zero Thunder Hammers or Lightning Claws, meaning that those options will vanish from the Codex.
That's a problem, even if some people here like to pretend that it isn't.
(And this is before we get to things like Bike Captains, which presumably won't be a thing as they don't have a miniature, meaning the only character that can ever lead bikes will be the Chaplain - I hope the Dark Angel release rectifies this and we get a full Outrider kit and a new Bike Captain... and Libby, 'cause why not?).
GW starts with all wargear being free.
They then retire wargear loadouts for models they don't currently make--but it's okay because 'wargear is free' and you can just count them as something else.
This can slide pretty smoothly into 'the weapons and wargear on the model is irrelevant--use this profile for this model.'
It's not particularly difficult or costly to make sure that a wide variety of legacy weapon and wargear options are available for the appropriate models. GW is choosing not to do it.
BrianDavion wrote: every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
This isn't MTG where you just buy a new pack of cards and play. Units and models in an army can take people months, years even decades (if you're as slow as me) to get finished. It's a long term hobby, but GW seem to be treating it short term like a card game cycle and dumping stuff in and out every 3 years (sometimes less). Which is why people complain.
BrianDavion wrote: every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
Probably for the best:
*The change from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. Loads of stuff made obsolete, but the crazy "anyone can have anything" rules needed reigning in. Completely understandable from a balance point of view.
*Purging datasheets from the game that have never actually existed as models, for example chaos marines riding steeds of slaanesh. The only version of no models no rules that is palatable.
Probably not so much for the best:
*Having wildly different wargear options for similar function models (i.e. space marine sergeants) based only on "whats in the box", when the entire range is by design cross compatible.
*Immediately pulling a "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" and deleting stuff from existence the moment a model goes out of production. Not based on balance, not based on player feedback, just literally I cannot be bothered to keep making that.
*Buffing units rules to increase demand for said product, selling out existing stock, then legending said unit. For example assault marines suddenly git gud in the 10th index, and behold - like clockwork they are now a primaris unit. With fewer options so you cannot counts-as your old collection.
It stings as the jeopardy is always on the player these days, and few to none of the actions taken have any basis in game balance or fun hobby time.
Lord Damocles wrote: My Deathwatch Captain is about to be made illegal for the second time in three Codexes...
Deathwatch has been terrible for this since they got turned into an army in 7th. The number of models that work, then don't then do since the 7th launch is pretty silly. That's not even taking into account specific loadouts; I'm just talking about what's actually allowed in the army.
BrianDavion wrote: every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
Probably for the best:
*The change from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. Loads of stuff made obsolete, but the crazy "anyone can have anything" rules needed reigning in. Completely understandable from a balance point of view.
*Purging datasheets from the game that have never actually existed as models, for example chaos marines riding steeds of slaanesh. The only version of no models no rules that is palatable.
For the record, they made those in metal while the Realm of Chaos books were published.
Not really sold on Shadow Masters (partly because the magic of 'be a foot away to get bonuses' makes no sense to me, and in game, staying a foot away isn't really up to you).
Stormlance looks interesting, but the article suggests that some Strats and Enhancements are mounted units only. I'd rather not saddle myself with restrictions.
The Stormlance Task Force, for instance, contains several Enhancements and Stratagems geared towards Mounted units like Outriders and Invader ATVs. However, their Detachment Rule Lightning Assault doesn’t require that keyword, so all your units can charge turn after turn.
Voss wrote: Not really sold on Shadow Masters (partly because the magic of 'be a foot away to get bonuses' makes no sense to me, and in game, staying a foot away isn't really up to you).
True, but it is really meant to be used on armies that don't want you to stay away. Armies with strong close-range shooting and close combat benefit. Diminishing the damage an opponent's long range weapons have until you can close the gap is helpful. Plus, it lends durability to any assets you keep in the backfield yourself.
I am going to have to ponder how Fall Back and Shoot/Charge all the time for Stormlance Strike Force is somehow equal to the Gladius Strike Force Doctrines that allows your army to do it one turn per game? Are those two other doctrines over 2 of the other 4 turns actually equal to having that ability all the time?
I think on average, assuming the strats and enhancements aren't "absolutely god aweful" the stromlance detachment is going to be "on average better" HWOEVER we might find that gladius combined with the adaptive stragety strat is something that a really good player who really knows what he's doing and how to leverage the various doctrines will be able to get more out of gladius
Justyn wrote: True, but there are other mounted characters.
That aren't wolves?
Talonmaster still a thing?
They aren't Mounted - they're only available in a Landspeeder.
Which also means they won't exist by this time next year now that the Landspeeder is discontinued.
Justyn wrote: True, but there are other mounted characters.
That aren't wolves?
Talonmaster still a thing?
They aren't Mounted - they're only available in a Landspeeder.
Which also means they won't exist by this time next year now that the Landspeeder is discontinued.
Yeah I assumed they'd have Mounted given that they're mounted on a landspeeder. But I don't think the enhancement has to be on a mounted character to affect or benefit them necessarily. Even if it is a weird choice.
Hellebore wrote: Wind-swift evasion is superior to phantasm... it has none of the restrictions piled on it.
Will be interesting to see if they nerf it when it comes out.
Not even slightly superior. Phantasm was any unit anywhere at end of Movement phase. Marine version is only after something in Move Unit step that puts them within 9" of the marine unit. Phantasm use case was whatever the hell you liked. Marine version is only really to stop charges and doesn't stop those from Deep Strike.
yeah garenteed the mounted stuff will require a biker keyword and won't apply to TWC
There is no Biker keyword. Only Mounted.
However, all Space Marines are drilled day and night to fight in whichever way fits the mission best, and that’s why in the upcoming Codex: Space Marines all seven Detachments can be adopted by any Chapter that sees fit.
Not how the basic Marine detachments work my dude.
For any of the basic detachments you can use any Chapter supplement, you just can't take two Chapters within the same detachment.
So the Stormlance would absolutely be usable by a Space Wolves army with Thunderwolves and Canis as its leader.
The Supplement detachments do have those restrictions such as the Black Spear for Deathwatch which disallows your more standard units like Tacticals or Devastators.
alextroy wrote: I am going to have to ponder how Fall Back and Shoot/Charge all the time for Stormlance Strike Force is somehow equal to the Gladius Strike Force Doctrines that allows your army to do it one turn per game? Are those two other doctrines over 2 of the other 4 turns actually equal to having that ability all the time?
I believe Stormlance lets you fall back and still charge, but not shoot. The Gladius version is more limited in when you can use it but stronger when you do. Also, the Gladius Strike Force has a stratagem that lets you put a unit in a specific Doctrine, which means even after you've used the Tactical Doctrine you can still get a unit out of combat and have them act normally if you need to.
Hey now, they can only release so many Space Marines in a week.
Gotta have at least two or three weeks for a new edition Codex release chunk. The train must roll on.
Scouts were repeatedly rumoured to be a KT release before they were even officially confirmed, so that seems pretty likely. Probably they'll announce the KT box in the Warhammer day preview, then release it in November.
I wonder if they'll either make the Leviathan kit available direct-only, or if GW are keeping a multi-part version back to accompany the Dark Angels codex next year. Assault terminators could also get the same treatment.
Scouts were repeatedly rumoured to be a KT release before they were even officially confirmed, so that seems pretty likely. Probably they'll announce the KT box in the Warhammer day preview, then release it in November.
Yes, Scouts were repeatedly rumored to be a KT release by Valrak. He's now walked it back to "speculation", also presenting a "theory" that it's going to be flying KTs.
I wonder if they'll either make the Leviathan kit available direct-only, or if GW are keeping a multi-part version back to accompany the Dark Angels codex next year. Assault terminators could also get the same treatment.
It's possible that they don't intend on having a multi-part one for awhile yet.
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Nevelon wrote: If you watch the video, they include a shot of the table of contents. So we know what’s in the book (if there were any questions)
I cannot stress how dumb it is that there's a separate entry for the "Lieutenant with Combi-Weapon".
This is literally the goofiest crap since the existence of separate entries for the Reiver and Phobos Lieutenants.
Nevelon wrote: If you watch the video, they include a shot of the table of contents. So we know what’s in the book (if there were any questions)
I cannot stress how dumb it is that there's a separate entry for the "Lieutenant with Combi-Weapon".
This is literally the goofiest crap since the existence of separate entries for the Reiver and Phobos Lieutenants.
No arguments here. The phobos Lt’s are a hot mess. It bugs me that the combi weapon guy is a lone wolf while the others are unit leaders. But nothing about their names tells you which is which.
Of course, the same could be said about most of the primaris unit names…
This whole book reeks of missed opportunities. Also interesting that still no sight of the Phobos assaulty with twin lightning claws ala the Raven Guard battleforce art.
will be post release of the SM codex. To me it seems like the only possibility is that they can no longer be used as they don't work with the new codex.
Why can't they be used with the Space Marine release? The codex adds more detachments outside of the Gladius Detachment. Those detachments appear usable for SW, DA, DW, BT and BA units with the same caveats as before.
will be post release of the SM codex. To me it seems like the only possibility is that they can no longer be used as they don't work with the new codex.
They'll be required since the new Codex does not include those units.
The rub will be for armies that utilize shared units - they'll need both this Codex and their Indexes, even in cases where they are using their own bespoke detachment. At least if the Tyranid release is any indication of what will happen with the Index.
Kanluwen wrote: I cannot stress how dumb it is that there's a separate entry for the "Lieutenant with Combi-Weapon".
I am in complete agreement. It's like when we had a Gravis Captain and Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Bolt Rifle.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Nice to see that the word 'Primaris' doesn't exist in the names of any of the data sheets. This means I don't need to replace my Jump Pack Captain.
Unless he has a Thunder Hammer, pair of Lightning Claws, or anything else that isn't Bolt Pistol/Plasma Pistol/Hand Flamer or Chainsword/Power Sword/Power Fist.
Most of my firstborn officers have magnets, so it should be easy to get them with the new program. Still going to be a lot of stuff not in the codex, but should be OK on gear for those that remain.
At least all the phobos Lts. Have different rules that justify the separate datasheets? There wasn’t even that thin an excuse for the gravis captains. They got a whole datasheet for what should have been a one line addition. At least in the new book the captains are more reasonable.
This might be the dullest marine codex release in a very, very long time. The new stuff is just bland and uninspiring.
I wonder if the new unit entries will match the existing data cards. Really not interested in buying anything, so will just use current cards with new detachments (which I don’t need a book for).
Kanluwen wrote: I cannot stress how dumb it is that there's a separate entry for the "Lieutenant with Combi-Weapon".
I am in complete agreement. It's like when we had a Gravis Captain and Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Bolt Rifle.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Nice to see that the word 'Primaris' doesn't exist in the names of any of the data sheets. This means I don't need to replace my Jump Pack Captain.
Unless he has a Thunder Hammer, pair of Lightning Claws, or anything else that isn't Bolt Pistol/Plasma Pistol/Hand Flamer or Chainsword/Power Sword/Power Fist.
pretty sure most people are gonna shrug and go "meh whatever" with that stuff
On the subject of the Lieutenant with Combi-weapon, he does have a very distinct ruleset compared to normal Lieutenants. He's a Lone Operative, where the others are leaders (of various different units depending on type). Personally I think he should have a cooler name (like Forward Ops Lieutenant or Tyrannic Veteran Lieutenant) but given his ruleset he definitely should be his own thing.
New Terminator Squad @ 40 GBP.. that's not too bad compared to the current pricing of the Assault Termies (37.50 GBP).
With GW's currency exchange hocus-pocus, I'm expecting 55 EUR.
Yes its 55€
Spoiler:
SPACE MARINES: COMPANY HEROES 55€
SPACE MARINES JUMP PACK INTERCESSORS 45€
SPACE MARINES: CAPTAIN WITH JUMP PACK 32,5€
SPACE MARINES: BRUTALIS DREADNOUGHT 62,5€
S/MARINES: STERNGUARD VETERAN SQUAD 50€
SPACE MARINES: LIEUTENANT 30€
SPACE MARINES: DESOLATION SQUAD 45€
SPACE MARINES: TERMINATOR SQUAD 55€
S/MARINES: CHAPLAIN IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR 34€
Sarigar wrote: Why can't they be used with the Space Marine release? The codex adds more detachments outside of the Gladius Detachment. Those detachments appear usable for SW, DA, DW, BT and BA units with the same caveats as before.
I got fooled by the fact that a couple of BT Index cards have primaris in their name but I just realised Primaris is not a keyword in 10:th. It is silly that BT have both a Crusader Squad and a Primaris Crusader squad though. (I will play my Crusader Squads as Primaris Crusader Squads from now on as the regular Crusader Squad obviously will be removed when BT gets their 10:th edition update)
I hope there will be plenty of stock of the Terminators. I wouldn't mind picking up a box, but I do mind placing an order just for them in case they sell out and GW doesn't make more for half a year.
ZergSmasher wrote: On the subject of the Lieutenant with Combi-weapon, he does have a very distinct ruleset compared to normal Lieutenants. He's a Lone Operative, where the others are leaders (of various different units depending on type). Personally I think he should have a cooler name (like Forward Ops Lieutenant or Tyrannic Veteran Lieutenant) but given his ruleset he definitely should be his own thing.
He's no different, lorewise, than how the other two have been described. It's just that he came in a box with no Phobos stuff.
It is nice they have an option to field characters solo without them just eating a lascannon to the face when not in a squad. Would be nice if they had similar lone operative options for other characters, but that would probably end up with massive bloat.
Or they could fix the character rules, but let’s not talk crazy…
ZergSmasher wrote: On the subject of the Lieutenant with Combi-weapon, he does have a very distinct ruleset compared to normal Lieutenants. He's a Lone Operative, where the others are leaders (of various different units depending on type). Personally I think he should have a cooler name (like Forward Ops Lieutenant or Tyrannic Veteran Lieutenant) but given his ruleset he definitely should be his own thing.
He's no different, lorewise, than how the other two have been described. It's just that he came in a box with no Phobos stuff.
The same is equally true of the Gravis Apothecary, and there aren't enough Terminators for both the Captain and Librarian to join a squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Designer Interview for the new Marines Gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed that it sounds like the Company Heroes is forced into weapon role diversity. Will sadly make them a bit of a lame duck choice.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed that it sounds like the Company Heroes is forced into weapon role diversity. Will sadly make them a bit of a lame duck choice.
Yeah... smashing all those choices back into a single squad isn't much fun. I just got the Company Champion model from their MTO thing. Shame he has to be stuck in that squad.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed that it sounds like the Company Heroes is forced into weapon role diversity. Will sadly make them a bit of a lame duck choice.
Yeah... smashing all those choices back into a single squad isn't much fun. I just got the Company Champion model from their MTO thing. Shame he has to be stuck in that squad.
Hey, the Company Champion arrived with like, a two-week window you could use him as written! If you didn't get him painted and on the table in that time, that's on you.
My MTO champ made it to built and primed. On the bright side, I’ve got an ancient, so just need to kitbash the other two vets in the squad to have a nice command squad for my company.
I suspect the full SG kit and my bits box will be able to sort that out.
ngl, Space Marine players now feeling how Chaos Marine players have felt for a solid decade.
This is what it is. Half the codex is updated brand new models. The other half is models that are waiting to be updated/upscaled. Weird, limited characters, some that aren't even available to purchase on their own, or at all.
Welcome to the 'chaosistency' of GW. The Apothecary Biologis will be stuck in a combo box with the Lt with combi-weapon or something, just like how the Neurotyrant, Screamer Killer, and Neurogaunts will be stuck in a weird box together. Just like the Tyranid and Space Marine combat patrols, and the upcoming Necron combat patrol, and the Venomcrawler/Obliterator set stuck together, and the SM Honoured of the Chapter from last edition, and the Vanguard Task Force which is the only way to get the Suppressors.
It's not even unique to 40k, it's happening in AoS too. Models and sets GW has decided it isn't worth it to release them on their own, so they'll keep them together.
Unfortunately, all this behavior does is bloat the secondary and tertiary markets and make certain options more and more difficult for the layperson to get and add to their army without also purchasing either stuff they don't want or need for their collection, or go to other sources that will either be blessedly cheaper or sometimes scalped to high heaven. It also boosts the prevalence of their FOMO strategy. If a box set comes out and you want the characters, you gotta get it the day it goes up for pre-order, and if you miss out, it'll be sold out for a solid month, split up into weird sub-boxes that'll be 2x or 3x more expensive from the original box, and even THOSE will be hard to come by because they're low-priority on the production queue. Good luck.
I really, REALLY hope we see this behavior turn around. GW's too big to be locking models in monopose boxes like this. I really hoped that the Shadowspear Oblit/Venomcrawler thing was a one-off thing, but now it seems to be a whole strategy of bullcrappery.
drbored wrote: I really, REALLY hope we see this behavior turn around. GW's too big to be locking models in monopose boxes like this. I really hoped that the Shadowspear Oblit/Venomcrawler thing was a one-off thing, but now it seems to be a whole strategy of bullcrappery.
GW is big, yes. But its size seems to be measured in breadth way more than it used to be. Horus Heresy, the return of the various specialist games, the odd new faction for the main games and model updates for factions that would have remained without new models for twice the time a decade ago are all things GW expanded into and that take up production time. GW may have grown, but so has its catalogue.
But manufacturing capacity aside, the monopose sprues from starter boxes look like they fit GW's strategy great. Once the starter box is retired, development for the sprues is already paid for. GW gets to sell something in bulk for a fairly high price instead of having people only pick up one or two models of the group, which is something they seem to have grown very fond of after start collecting boxes became a success through the same approach. And there is an element of fueling FOMO to these sprues.
For the customer, you are correct. For us it would be desirable to have proper individual kits for all these units locked in a mixed bag sprue. But I don't see a desire on GW's part to do do away with something that, as far as we can tell, works just fine for them.
So I have been out of the hobby for a long time, even longer time since I've been actively playing, got dragged back in with leviathan.
Am I correct in my reading of announcements so far that in essence you might as well be playing one of the divergent chapters e.g. Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc. as they're going to have literally all the core codex plus extras? Thinking I may have goofed painting my models as Imperial Fists so far if this is the case.
Ignatius-Grulgor wrote: So I have been out of the hobby for a long time, even longer time since I've been actively playing, got dragged back in with leviathan.
Am I correct in my reading of announcements so far that in essence you might as well be playing one of the divergent chapters e.g. Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc. as they're going to have literally all the core codex plus extras? Thinking I may have goofed painting my models as Imperial Fists so far if this is the case.
Its the normal problem - how do you make the "oh so very super special" Chapters different from the 990 other, often equally or more divergent Chapters but also allow them to have most if not all of the normal stuff.....
We’ll find out for sure when we get the first chapter supplement book.
Right now it seems like a return of keeping paint and rules separate. As long as you don’t use 2 different chapter locked units at the same time, it doesn’t make a difference.
Ignatius-Grulgor wrote: So I have been out of the hobby for a long time, even longer time since I've been actively playing, got dragged back in with leviathan.
Am I correct in my reading of announcements so far that in essence you might as well be playing one of the divergent chapters e.g. Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc. as they're going to have literally all the core codex plus extras? Thinking I may have goofed painting my models as Imperial Fists so far if this is the case.
Nah, just have some fancy Imperial fist jump guys and play with the BA rules, or some extra terminators and use DA or whatever, it's the (un)intentional side effect of GW going the way they have with the chapters and detachment rules imo.
drbored wrote: ngl, Space Marine players now feeling how Chaos Marine players have felt for a solid decade.
This is an apt comparison.
I hope that the various divergent Chapters help to fill in the gaps in the line (Outriders/Bike Captain with the Dark Angels, Assault Terminators/Vanguard Jump Packers with the Blood Angels, and so on)... but I doubt it.
Good to see that the new Terminators borrow elements from Space Marine Heroes 2 (split storm bolter & power fist).
Two minor nitpicks : IMO, rear torso would have been nicer with gothic arches (see current DW termies). Also, a storm
bolter with sickle clips would have been nice..
Will be picking up a couple of boxes for my Space Hulk project.
Could do with a few more pistols in there so I can split the sternguard up to be veteran sergeants in other units, but I guess that's me being a bit too creative for GW in 2023. They're adjectivenoun verbers and that's that.
Platuan4th wrote: I like that the Cyclone includes a targeter to put on the fist. Nice nod to the old metals.
How the mechanics of the power fields on Power Fists, Chainfists, and Power Fists with attached targeters work is a mystery which will never be answered, I'm sure...
Nevelon wrote: It is nice they have an option to field characters solo without them just eating a lascannon to the face when not in a squad. Would be nice if they had similar lone operative options for other characters, but that would probably end up with massive bloat.
Or they could fix the character rules, but let’s not talk crazy…
Overlapping character Auras? Overlapping Character Auras.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But this is Tacticus... why would they put Phobos in there?
I mean, we get it - Raven Guard Raven Guard Raven Guard - as always, but still, your desire makes zero sense?
Interesting that every Terminator can have a Chainfist. Meanwhile, in Chaos Terminator Land...
Don't remind me...
But yeah, watch how loudly you say certain things. GW's gunna be looking for ideas for 11th edition and we may just get Phobos Sternguard and Phobos Gravis Terminator Assault Squad with Jump Packs and all sorts of wacky things to make space marines do something they already have 5 other squads to do, but space marines sell the most so they have to keep the idea pot stirring.
But yeah, watch how loudly you say certain things. GW's gunna be looking for ideas for 11th edition and we may just get Phobos Sternguard and Phobos Gravis Terminator Assault Squad with Jump Packs and all sorts of wacky things to make space marines do something they already have 5 other squads to do, but space marines sell the most so they have to keep the idea pot stirring.
The point that the poster you quoted missed is that I said parts. Having a few Gravis and Phobos parts would have allowed for people to make some of the weirder blends of Primaris Armor, like the Omnis(mix of Tacitus, Gravis, and Phobos parts--seen on Shrike and Suppressors), to give a bit more of a 'veteran' flavor to them.
But yeah, watch how loudly you say certain things. GW's gunna be looking for ideas for 11th edition and we may just get Phobos Sternguard and Phobos Gravis Terminator Assault Squad with Jump Packs and all sorts of wacky things to make space marines do something they already have 5 other squads to do, but space marines sell the most so they have to keep the idea pot stirring.
The point that the poster you quoted missed is that I said parts. Having a few Gravis and Phobos parts would have allowed for people to make some of the weirder blends of Primaris Armor, like the Omnis(mix of Tacitus, Gravis, and Phobos parts--seen on Shrike and Suppressors), to give a bit more of a 'veteran' flavor to them.
...but they are not in Gravis or Phobos armor. They are in Tacitus armor.
But yeah, watch how loudly you say certain things. GW's gunna be looking for ideas for 11th edition and we may just get Phobos Sternguard and Phobos Gravis Terminator Assault Squad with Jump Packs and all sorts of wacky things to make space marines do something they already have 5 other squads to do, but space marines sell the most so they have to keep the idea pot stirring.
The point that the poster you quoted missed is that I said parts. Having a few Gravis and Phobos parts would have allowed for people to make some of the weirder blends of Primaris Armor, like the Omnis(mix of Tacitus, Gravis, and Phobos parts--seen on Shrike and Suppressors), to give a bit more of a 'veteran' flavor to them.
...but they are not in Gravis or Phobos armor. They are in Tacitus armor.
They have the Tacitus keyword. Not the same thing.
But I mean, Shrike and Suppressors don't have a keyword. Invictors are randomly keyworded as Phobos.
But yeah, watch how loudly you say certain things. GW's gunna be looking for ideas for 11th edition and we may just get Phobos Sternguard and Phobos Gravis Terminator Assault Squad with Jump Packs and all sorts of wacky things to make space marines do something they already have 5 other squads to do, but space marines sell the most so they have to keep the idea pot stirring.
The point that the poster you quoted missed is that I said parts. Having a few Gravis and Phobos parts would have allowed for people to make some of the weirder blends of Primaris Armor, like the Omnis(mix of Tacitus, Gravis, and Phobos parts--seen on Shrike and Suppressors), to give a bit more of a 'veteran' flavor to them.
...but they are not in Gravis or Phobos armor. They are in Tacitus armor.
They have the Tacitus keyword. Not the same thing.
But I mean, Shrike and Suppressors don't have a keyword. Invictors are randomly keyworded as Phobos.
Yes, they have the keyword because they are wearing Mark X Tacticus armor. Shrike, Suppressors and the new Jump Pack Intercessors are "Jump Pack" keyword because making it "Tacticus Jump Pack" is clunky, as Jump Pack works on limiting availability to existing transports, much as Gravis and Phobos can/do.
The guy in the Invictor is wearing Phobos armor, so that is probably why.
Yes, they have the keyword because they are wearing Mark X Tacticus armor. Shrike, Suppressors and the new Jump Pack Intercessors are "Jump Pack" keyword because making it "Tacticus Jump Pack" is clunky, as Jump Pack works on limiting availability to existing transports, much as Gravis and Phobos can/do.
Unless there's been a leak of the Jump Pack Intercessors, we don't know what keywords they have.
Shrike lost the Phobos keyword despite having it when his new model dropped. He and Suppressors are both wearing "Omnis" pattern, which is literally just a mix of Gravis, Phobos, and Tacitus parts.
The guy in the Invictor is wearing Phobos armor, so that is probably why.
Sure, and the gunner and driver on the Invader ATV has Tacitus armor yet isn't keyworded as such...
It's okay to say you misunderstood the initial post I made. I said that it would have been nice to get Phobos parts for the Sternguard. Since the armor system is modular, there's no reason that you could not have had parts made available allowing for things like the slimmed down pauldrons/helmets, lighter vambraces, etc.
It's not like there is a Phobos unit that they could be confused with. Bad enough that the stupid tabards are forced down your throat at every fricking turn with the "veteran" units so that every Chapter looks like some wannabe Greco-Roman cosplayers. It would have been nice to be able to genuinely make your veterans look like veterans who have personalized their wargear somewhat.
Yes, they have the keyword because they are wearing Mark X Tacticus armor. Shrike, Suppressors and the new Jump Pack Intercessors are "Jump Pack" keyword because making it "Tacticus Jump Pack" is clunky, as Jump Pack works on limiting availability to existing transports, much as Gravis and Phobos can/do.
Unless there's been a leak of the Jump Pack Intercessors, we don't know what keywords they have.
Shrike lost the Phobos keyword despite having it when his new model dropped. He and Suppressors are both wearing "Omnis" pattern, which is literally just a mix of Gravis, Phobos, and Tacitus parts.
The guy in the Invictor is wearing Phobos armor, so that is probably why.
Sure, and the gunner and driver on the Invader ATV has Tacitus armor yet isn't keyworded as such...
It's okay to say you misunderstood the initial post I made. I said that it would have been nice to get Phobos parts for the Sternguard. Since the armor system is modular, there's no reason that you could not have had parts made available allowing for things like the slimmed down pauldrons/helmets, lighter vambraces, etc.
It's not like there is a Phobos unit that they could be confused with. Bad enough that the stupid tabards are forced down your throat at every fricking turn with the "veteran" units so that every Chapter looks like some wannabe Greco-Roman cosplayers. It would have been nice to be able to genuinely make your veterans look like veterans who have personalized their wargear somewhat.
It is a safe bet on the Jump Pack, since they have... Jump packs. Omnis pattern would be redundant rules wise, while Phobos, Gravis and Tacticus are not. Same for the ATV, which is "Mounted". Much like "Jump Pack" it would not be helpful. Basically, my point is, they use armor keywords for limiting things unless there is a broader concept that exists to create a limitation.
Either way, the original point stands too - Sternguard are in Tacticus armor, so they wouldn't be wearing Gravis or Phobos armor. Just as they historically haven't had mixed Terminator armor either, despite being First Company veterans themselves.
You should probably be able to hit up your bits box and swap in some phobos bits if that’s what you want. When putting together an old KT, I used a few lighter armor bits on an intercessor for the “scout” role.
So we have no idea on datasheet changes (outside of new and expired ones) in comparison to ones already in circulation? Assuming we might see this weekend?
bullyboy wrote: So we have no idea on datasheet changes (outside of new and expired ones) in comparison to ones already in circulation? Assuming we might see this weekend?
Outside of reprinting corrections that already occurred (and catching some things they missed) for things like 'has CCW, doesn't have option to take CCW') , I don't see any reason to expect many (if any) changes to surviving datasheets.
Looking at new jump pack sprues, GWfinally fixed the thing that bugged me forever, namely integrated power plants into the jump pack. Old squattus had jump pack and armor magically powered by nothing, this thing looks like it would actually function as described. Too bad 30K still gets old, crap designs, though maybe GW will positively surprise me and will copy the primaris look into Mk 6 pack (like they did with new termies, 100% of the improvement is copied from past primaris bits) to have them make sense too.
Billicus wrote: Could do with a few more pistols in there so I can split the sternguard up to be veteran sergeants in other units, but I guess that's me being a bit too creative for GW in 2023. They're adjectivenoun verbers and that's that.
That's where you grab BT crusader squad which also has tabards and fancy helmets/backpacks, plus multiple pistols/melee weapons, and funnily enough, if I guess box prices right, get 1 free chapter champion and 4 scouts over sternguard kit, problem solved
ZergSmasher wrote: On the subject of the Lieutenant with Combi-weapon, he does have a very distinct ruleset compared to normal Lieutenants. He's a Lone Operative, where the others are leaders (of various different units depending on type). Personally I think he should have a cooler name (like Forward Ops Lieutenant or Tyrannic Veteran Lieutenant) but given his ruleset he definitely should be his own thing.
He is literally a 30K Moritat (or, if you want 40K example, DW Kill Marine or SW Lone Wolf, similar things had been in lore for ages). He absolutely should get a distinct name and actual options akin to the above, but alas, GW rules clown sabotaging primaris since 7th edition never put any thought or effort into their rules save for nerfing what he made good by accident.
Either way, it's hilarious to see usual call him 'bLoAt' when A) it's actually nice, fluffy addition to SM lineup, B) they praise the exact same thing in 30K under slightly different name, go figure
Mr Morden wrote: Its the normal problem - how do you make the "oh so very super special" Chapters different from the 990 other, often equally or more divergent Chapters but also allow them to have most if not all of the normal stuff.....
5th edition got this right (divergent chapters paying for snowflake units or different troop choices with lack of access to SM rules/relics/characters, units that duplicated their snowflake stuff, or points raised on units they traditionally rarely used) but alas, that was last time GW had competent rules writer leading 40K. Since then, whining of snowflake chapters players they don't get unit X or Y in addition to all their extra special ++ counterparts (and general rule writing incompetency on GW side) destroyed that delicate balance and it will be hard to put that genie back into bottle without someone feeling shafted, sadly.
10th could have fixed it by introducing separation between snowflake stuff and the broader SM rules (basically, making 'codex' chapters having extra options of their own over deviants) but alas, that would require effort and we can't have that...
H.B.M.C. wrote: I hope that the various divergent Chapters help to fill in the gaps in the line (Outriders/Bike Captain with the Dark Angels, Assault Terminators/Vanguard Jump Packers with the Blood Angels, and so on)... but I doubt it.
Would be nice, but what I expect GW writer will actually do is leaving snowflake options segregated (see BT captain being the only one who knows how to unlock Power Axe cabinet in chapter armory) and snowflakiness ++ will just go to ++++
They are keyworded as phobos because A) they wear phobos armor, B) they are designed to be buffed by phobos characters who can only target phobos units with their SR/psychic powers. Actually knowing the rules helps
They are keyworded as phobos because A) they wear phobos armor, B) they are designed to be buffed by phobos characters who can only target phobos units with their SR/psychic powers. Actually knowing the rules helps
Funny you mention that...
Out of the Phobos equipped HQ? Only the Captain in Phobos Armor has a non-Leader associated ability, "Master of Deceit".
MoD affects "up to three friendly Adeptus Astartes Phobos, Adeptus Astartes Scout Squad, or Adeptus Astartes Scout Sniper Squad units".
Librarian only affects their squad with Shrouding(Psychic).
Lieutenants only affect their squads.
Heck, Shrike only affects the unit he joins now.
But I guess you knew that, since you're taking shots at me for not knowing the rules eh?
We already can surmise that they see an issue with it, given the wording of the Invictors' own "Combat Support" ability. and the leaked wording of the "Guerilla Tactics" stratagem for the Vanguard(but not really) Spearhead(affects 2 Phobos infantry or 1 other infantry). Unless there's something else coming down the road for Phobos, there's no point in having a non-infantry unit with the keyword.
I like the look of the command squad, but hope we get more options then what’s in the box for how to field them (yah, yah, I know…). Right now it’s all over the place with equipment. Captain gets a new pistol option. They have been flogging the concept of interchangeability with the new kits, so fingers crossed.
Still meh on the new chaplain mini. Interesting that he’s got a few custom options (like 2 crozious tops) how many TDA chaplains are most people going to want/need? I suspect the answer is around zero, but probably tops out at one. Still, more options are always welcome, just a little surprised to see them here. Will kitbash my own once I see the rules.
Gert wrote: Because they're the souls of dead Space Marines and plenty of Primaris Marines have died.
Not exactly difficult.
There are a lot of theories on the LoTD, and this covers the big one.
If they are “good” warp entities, they could take the form of how the Imperium perceives marines, which could be primaris.
If they are marines lost to the warp, plenty of primaris have done so. Even if they are founded on a core of Fire Hawks, warp-lost primaris could have joined them.
The fluff does not have to be bent very far at all to accommodate new LotD sculps
Nevelon wrote: I like the look of the command squad, but hope we get more options then what’s in the box for how to field them (yah, yah, I know…).
Not going to happen. The squad will always have one guy with a Bolter, one guy with a Heavy Bolter, one guy with a flag, and one guy with a sword. Aren't kit-based restrictions fun?
Nevelon wrote: Right now it’s all over the place with equipment.
If GW released a Devastator squad today like the did back in the days of 2nd Ed, they'd be locked at one of each type of weapon.
Nevelon wrote: Still meh on the new chaplain mini. Interesting that he’s got a few custom options (like 2 crozious tops) how many TDA chaplains are most people going to want/need? I suspect the answer is around zero, but probably tops out at one. Still, more options are always welcome, just a little surprised to see them here. Will kitbash my own once I see the rules.
Does have more options?
Right now a TDA Chaplain can get a Combi-Weapon purely because this mini exists. But that mini isn't on general sale, and the new one has no combi-weapon on the sprue. So it may have lost combi-weapon access in favour of the Storm Shield.
Nevelon wrote: Still meh on the new chaplain mini. Interesting that he’s got a few custom options (like 2 crozious tops) how many TDA chaplains are most people going to want/need? I suspect the answer is around zero, but probably tops out at one. Still, more options are always welcome, just a little surprised to see them here. Will kitbash my own once I see the rules.
No or only one Terminator Chaplain sounds like heresy to me. I may have overindulged in the past because points limits back in the day meant I'd use exactly one character in my army, but I had way more Chaplains than that, both terminator and power armored. If I played these days, with how armies have gotten bigger in the meantime I might just use two of them. So I can definitely appreciate the extra bits.
That said, I'm not big on this particular model either. It's decent for the bits, or as a base model for a proper Chaplain conversion. But stock it's way too bland for my taste.
Also curious to see they thought a Terminator Chaplain of all people needs a storm shield.
I”m pretty surprised how apathetic I am toward this edition. No enthusiasm to play much or even build lists. I want my vanvets to have LCs again, etc. if I play, that’s how I’ll play (don’t play comp) since “heirloom weapons” is just dumb.
Nevelon wrote: Still meh on the new chaplain mini. Interesting that he’s got a few custom options (like 2 crozious tops) how many TDA chaplains are most people going to want/need? I suspect the answer is around zero, but probably tops out at one. Still, more options are always welcome, just a little surprised to see them here. Will kitbash my own once I see the rules.
No or only one Terminator Chaplain sounds like heresy to me. I may have overindulged in the past because points limits back in the day meant I'd use exactly one character in my army, but I had way more Chaplains than that, both terminator and power armored. If I played these days, with how armies have gotten bigger in the meantime I might just use two of them. So I can definitely appreciate the extra bits.
That said, I'm not big on this particular model either. It's decent for the bits, or as a base model for a proper Chaplain conversion. But stock it's way too bland for my taste.
Also curious to see they thought a Terminator Chaplain of all people needs a storm shield.
Don’t get me wrong, I love chaplains, of all types, and have fielded them even in editions where they were sub par. But I recognize that I’m a minority. Looking at the current rules, I don’t see much advantage to taking him over a librarian/captain.
From a fluff POV how many TDA chaplains are going to be available to a given chapter?
As for the shield, currently that looks like swapping out a SB for an extra wound. (Looking at similar character options). If you were going to stick him with some assault marines that aren’t going to be shooting anyway, why not?
I’ll be modeling the leviathan captain into a chaplain, but am going to wait until I have codex in hand before picking up the knife. This model just don’t do it for me.
Beaker07 wrote: Is there any info in this re The Legion Of The Damned? thanking you
Legion of the damnd are in the "agents of the Imperium" faction's legends document. You can try and run them on their own in a faction-rule-less list, or one-per1kpts in another army.
Nevelon wrote: Still meh on the new chaplain mini. Interesting that he’s got a few custom options (like 2 crozious tops) how many TDA chaplains are most people going to want/need? I suspect the answer is around zero, but probably tops out at one. Still, more options are always welcome, just a little surprised to see them here. Will kitbash my own once I see the rules.
No or only one Terminator Chaplain sounds like heresy to me. I may have overindulged in the past because points limits back in the day meant I'd use exactly one character in my army, but I had way more Chaplains than that, both terminator and power armored. If I played these days, with how armies have gotten bigger in the meantime I might just use two of them. So I can definitely appreciate the extra bits.
That said, I'm not big on this particular model either. It's decent for the bits, or as a base model for a proper Chaplain conversion. But stock it's way too bland for my taste.
Also curious to see they thought a Terminator Chaplain of all people needs a storm shield.
Storm shield is basically a pure math buff. Against damage 2 or damage 3 weapons, you need an additional failed save to actually die.
Its reasonably useful if you want to keep your squad buff in the face of devoted [precision] snipers or assorted tyranid beasties. Trashing a stormbolter for it is worthwhile against a number of armies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just think he looks cool with the Storm Shield.
*shrugs*
In the grand scheme of things the difference between and extra wound and a couple more bolter shots will probably wash out in the variability of the dice, so might as well go with what you think looks better.
Nevelon wrote: Still meh on the new chaplain mini. Interesting that he’s got a few custom options (like 2 crozious tops) how many TDA chaplains are most people going to want/need? I suspect the answer is around zero, but probably tops out at one. Still, more options are always welcome, just a little surprised to see them here. Will kitbash my own once I see the rules.
No or only one Terminator Chaplain sounds like heresy to me. I may have overindulged in the past because points limits back in the day meant I'd use exactly one character in my army, but I had way more Chaplains than that, both terminator and power armored. If I played these days, with how armies have gotten bigger in the meantime I might just use two of them. So I can definitely appreciate the extra bits.
That said, I'm not big on this particular model either. It's decent for the bits, or as a base model for a proper Chaplain conversion. But stock it's way too bland for my taste.
Also curious to see they thought a Terminator Chaplain of all people needs a storm shield.
Don’t get me wrong, I love chaplains, of all types, and have fielded them even in editions where they were sub par. But I recognize that I’m a minority. Looking at the current rules, I don’t see much advantage to taking him over a librarian/captain.
From a fluff POV how many TDA chaplains are going to be available to a given chapter?
As for the shield, currently that looks like swapping out a SB for an extra wound. (Looking at similar character options). If you were going to stick him with some assault marines that aren’t going to be shooting anyway, why not?
I’ll be modeling the leviathan captain into a chaplain, but am going to wait until I have codex in hand before picking up the knife. This model just don’t do it for me.
A chapter could have as many Teminator Chaplains as they have Chaplains with terminator honors and suits with their name on. The practical limitation is whether a Chaplain of the battle companies would fit into their combat doctrine if he was the only one to run around in terminator armor. I imagine that the situation has become even more fluid now that Girlyman has declared his big book of rules a big book of guidelines.
I hadn't realized that the storm shield is only a wound buff now (also thanks to Voss for the explanation). Goes with the rest of the edition, I guess.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just think he looks cool with the Storm Shield.
*shrugs*
My old conversion based on Lysander, sure. This one? Eh. It's the thought that counts, I guess.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ok, so 100% no more Lightning Claws, Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields or even Chainswords on Captains anymore.
Marines get more and more like CSM every day...
Hey, Chaos Lords still get these options (for now), they can even take TWO lightning claws (except it does litterally nothing)
There used to be some very obscure corner cases where having a backup weapon could hypothetically be useful (Jain Zar disarming you, maybe a few others) but did any of those even make it to 10th?
Nevelon wrote: I wonder if there is going to be a good counts-as for them in the new book? Just a way to get some flaming undead marines to the table.
Would like to see them added to a potential imperial ally book sometime down the road. They are too cool to just let drift away.
The good news is if that's what you want to run, you can run them under any chapter you want. Some probably fit better than others (anything with a Teleportarum, I'd guess) but if you want LoD Outriders with White Scars rules, go for it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ok, so 100% no more Lightning Claws, Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields or even Chainswords on Captains anymore.
Marines get more and more like CSM every day...
Hey, Chaos Lords still get these options (for now), they can even take TWO lightning claws (except it does litterally nothing)
There used to be some very obscure corner cases where having a backup weapon could hypothetically be useful (Jain Zar disarming you, maybe a few others) but did any of those even make it to 10th?
Right now it does litterally nothing, you're better off just taking a thunderhammer/PF + plasma pistol since theyre the better weapons. My NL lord is wielding two claws but one is really a plasma pistol
A chapter could have as many Teminator Chaplains as they have Chaplains with terminator honors and suits with their name on. The practical limitation is whether a Chaplain of the battle companies would fit into their combat doctrine if he was the only one to run around in terminator armor. I imagine that the situation has become even more fluid now that Girlyman has declared his big book of rules a big book of guidelines.
I hadn't realized that the storm shield is only a wound buff now (also thanks to Voss for the explanation). Goes with the rest of the edition, I guess.
True. I tend to think of TDA chaplains being stuck with the one in the 1st company. The head chaplain for the whole chapter would also probably fit.
That also shows my Ultramarine bias. Not every chapter isolates it’s TDA suits in the 1st.
So, with the company command squad, are ancients and company champions being made into a single unit or can you still take them separately? I'm hearing mixed info from different sources.
No One Important wrote: I believe the table of contents shown in the weekly preview had them listed as separate units, but I can't make it out on my phone to confirm that.
Ah I see it now. Looking at the Table of Contents, the Ancient can be taken on his own, but the Company Champion is only in the 'company heroes' squad.
So if you got an ancient on his own, you're still fine, but if you got that limited company champion, then you need to build a squad around him to use him as that.
Reemmber, they also sell a standalone Ancient kit as part of the regular lineup of Space Marine characters (unlike the Company Champion, who was an event model they brought back once for a Made to Order run)
So he gets to be his own character, the Champion doesn't
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Reemmber, they also sell a standalone Ancient kit as part of the regular lineup of Space Marine characters (unlike the Company Champion, who was an event model they brought back once for a Made to Order run). So he gets to be his own character, the Champion doesn't
I can't tell you how much that gaks me...
And I'm guessing they won't add to the Legends document to add in all the units they just cut (including Mr. Solo Champion).
Pretty sure the model reveal called it a Relic Shield, which at least in 9th was something different than a Storm Shield. Did the Relic Shield get axed in 10th?
AduroT wrote: Pretty sure the model reveal called it a Relic Shield, which at least in 9th was something different than a Storm Shield. Did the Relic Shield get axed in 10th?
Not that I've seen, but since wargear is all unit-specific it's basically just a storm shield by another name.
AduroT wrote: Pretty sure the model reveal called it a Relic Shield, which at least in 9th was something different than a Storm Shield. Did the Relic Shield get axed in 10th?
Not that I've seen, but since wargear is all unit-specific it's basically just a storm shield by another name.
Doing a search for “Relic Shield” in the index it looks like all the shields on captains were rebranded to relics and just give +1W these days. Storm shields vary a bit on what they do, but look to be 4++ on things that don’t have an invuln, or +1W for those that do.
Barring some major change from the index (which they could do) since the chaplain already has an invuln, I’d wager the shield is going to be a spare wound for him.
Lord Damocles wrote: It's good how strapping a skellington to your shield deactivates the forcefield.
They should try shooting bones at titans...
At least you get the extra wound.
With storm/relic shields giving a 4++ these days it would be otherwise useless to give them to characters who already had one. And they do look cool; nice to have a reason to take one.
Lord Damocles wrote: It's good how strapping a skellington to your shield deactivates the forcefield.
They should try shooting bones at titans...
At least you get the extra wound.
With storm/relic shields giving a 4++ these days it would be otherwise useless to give them to characters who already had one. And they do look cool; nice to have a reason to take one.
Yeah, the calling them Relic shields is to differentiate what they do, because as it was said, a storm shield giving a 4++ to a model already with a 4++ is redundant.
Lord Damocles wrote: I wonder how any previous edition coped with the problem of multiple invulnerable saves. What horrors we must have endured.
You only used the best one. Which would make the shield on the captain irrelevant (previous editions termi armour just have a 5+ inv, so the storm shield improved that by one, in that it was a 4+ that replaced it). But yeah, of all the things to complain about with GW's rules right now, I'm sure this whole shield adding one to the wound is definitely near the top.
GW hates conversions so much they feature them every time, eh?
Also perfect response to that dumb complain about SG kit not featuring every mark of armor ever, you want to make them more Phobos, converting with spare arms/helmets/trinkets is really not that difficult...
Lord Damocles wrote: It's good how strapping a skellington to your shield deactivates the forcefield.
They should try shooting bones at titans...
At least you get the extra wound.
With storm/relic shields giving a 4++ these days it would be otherwise useless to give them to characters who already had one. And they do look cool; nice to have a reason to take one.
Yeah, the calling them Relic shields is to differentiate what they do, because as it was said, a storm shield giving a 4++ to a model already with a 4++ is redundant.
Except Assault Termiantors and Terminator Ancients have Storm Shields (not Relic Shields) that grant +1 wounds.
The name doesn't really mean anything, GW just decided it was cooler to call the shields Captains (and now Chaplains) get "Relic Shields" instead of going back to using the regular "Storm Shield" name they'd had before 9th.
One thing I'm noticing is that GW is doing away with the 360 turnaround on their website. Those were super handy to see the different angles on a model to see how something was painted or how it is supposed to go together.
All I can hope is that they bring that back when they do the new website.
Models look good. Hope they don't sell out in 5 minutes like every other preorder.
They stopped the 360s about a year ago. Real shame as was a great way to see all aspects of the minis that their photography often misses.
Those Australian prices can get straight in the bin. Even with 3rd party retailer discount they are ridiculous. This editions edition finally ends my run of GW. I know I can't compare back to the pricing of the 90s or early 2000s of my youth, but as an adult with a well paid job in today's responsibilities and all other commitments, they've finally managed to price me out completely. All the best to those who can stick with it.
Every time something is released there are people saying the 360 shots are gone now and I really don't understand why.
Yes they aren't there when stuff goes up on preorder but they are being added later. I don't think there is a release that didn't get their 360 added. For limited boxes it might take until the stuff inside got their general release but otherwise it will get added not too long after release date.
I mean you literally just need to look at the last releases to see that the 360s got added. For example both the Tyranid releases from 4 weeks ago and the Ironjawz stuff from two weeks ago have theirs now. Even Trugg got one even thought its a limited box.
The Cerastus Knights from last week don't have theirs yet but their release date is today so will get added in the next few days
It's literally the only way he interacts with people at this website.
Matrindur wrote: Every time something is released there are people saying the 360 shots are gone now and I really don't understand why.
Because suddenly stopping something useful without warning is GW's MO?
I thought they had stopped doing them after noticing a lack of them when new releases went up for pre-order, only to realise that they go up little while later. Why they can't have these photos ready for the day people can buy them is anyone's guess...
Matrindur wrote: Every time something is released there are people saying the 360 shots are gone now and I really don't understand why.
Because suddenly stopping something useful without warning is GW's MO?
I thought they had stopped doing them after noticing a lack of them when new releases went up for pre-order, only to realise that they go up little while later. Why they can't have these photos ready for the day people can buy them is anyone's guess...
Peachy on The Painting Phase mentioned that miniatures painted for the box art were sometimes only painted on the "front", i. e. the angle shown in the photo, to save time. It's possible that is fairly widespread - maybe they commonly use incomplete painted models to get the boxes into print/sales portal, and finish them off for 360s much later after the rush.
Peachy also talked about, in the last podcast with Louise Sugden, how every damned department has its own photography team, rather than just having a central photography department that takes care of all pictures.
More of the idiotic silo'd nature of GW, where office infighting is so unnecessary.
Matrindur wrote: Every time something is released there are people saying the 360 shots are gone now and I really don't understand why.
Yes they aren't there when stuff goes up on preorder but they are being added later. I don't think there is a release that didn't get their 360 added. For limited boxes it might take until the stuff inside got their general release but otherwise it will get added not too long after release date.
I mean you literally just need to look at the last releases to see that the 360s got added. For example both the Tyranid releases from 4 weeks ago and the Ironjawz stuff from two weeks ago have theirs now. Even Trugg got one even thought its a limited box.
The Cerastus Knights from last week don't have theirs yet but their release date is today so will get added in the next few days
Consider what happens. New miniatures go up for pre-order that have been advertised for two weeks to three months to create interest. It's oftentimes the first complete look at these models anyone can get. The day pre-orders go up is the time when interest in the models is at its highest. People go check out the pictures and find there are no 360s. They make do and form their opinion on the new models with what's there. If they have no reason to go back to that webpage, whether it's because they decided to buy and have no further use for it or because what they saw didn't convince them to buy and there's no point in another look, the initial state of the webpage sticks in mind. They simply wouldn't know the 360s are added some time later. Thus get the impression GW doesn't do 360s anymore.
I appreciate that you're trying to set the record straight whenever this comes up. I wasn't aware of it either. The thing is, GW are just shooting themselves in the foot handling things like this. It leaves customers with less service when it matters most and with the wrong impression going forward. GW may well have structural problems that suddenly makes it impossible to upload 360s right away, but if they do, they should fix the issue right away. Because on the customer side, the situation looks as stupid as it gets. And I shudder to think that the delay might instead be deliberate and someone's genius idea of improving sales.
Matrindur wrote: Every time something is released there are people saying the 360 shots are gone now and I really don't understand why.
Yes they aren't there when stuff goes up on preorder but they are being added later. I don't think there is a release that didn't get their 360 added. For limited boxes it might take until the stuff inside got their general release but otherwise it will get added not too long after release date.
I mean you literally just need to look at the last releases to see that the 360s got added. For example both the Tyranid releases from 4 weeks ago and the Ironjawz stuff from two weeks ago have theirs now. Even Trugg got one even thought its a limited box.
The Cerastus Knights from last week don't have theirs yet but their release date is today so will get added in the next few days
Consider what happens. New miniatures go up for pre-order that have been advertised for two weeks to three months to create interest. It's oftentimes the first complete look at these models anyone can get. The day pre-orders go up is the time when interest in the models is at its highest. People go check out the pictures and find there are no 360s. They make do and form their opinion on the new models with what's there. If they have no reason to go back to that webpage, whether it's because they decided to buy and have no further use for it or because what they saw didn't convince them to buy and there's no point in another look, the initial state of the webpage sticks in mind. They simply wouldn't know the 360s are added some time later. Thus get the impression GW doesn't do 360s anymore.
I appreciate that you're trying to set the record straight whenever this comes up. I wasn't aware of it either. The thing is, GW are just shooting themselves in the foot handling things like this. It leaves customers with less service when it matters most and with the wrong impression going forward. GW may well have structural problems that suddenly makes it impossible to upload 360s right away, but if they do, they should fix the issue right away. Because on the customer side, the situation looks as stupid as it gets. And I shudder to think that the delay might instead be deliberate and someone's genius idea of improving sales.
Sure it is certainly confusing for customers how GW does it now but it would still be nice to verify claims that GW stopped doing them a year ago before posting. Especially since it's just a few clicks.
It was just a little rant of mine since I see it for nearly every new preorder and whenever someone tries to clear up that its wrong their answers seem to get drowned under other responses.
And its certainly not the best characteristic of the internet but a rant gets more attention than just a factual answer
Full accounting of datasheet changes (and wholesale removals!):
Hopefully to the surprise of no one (certainly not me), I was right:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Right now a TDA Chaplain can get a Combi-Weapon purely because this mini exists. But that mini isn't on general sale, and the new one has no combi-weapon on the sprue. So it may have lost combi-weapon access in favour of the Storm Shield.
The Chaplain lost his Combi-Weapon option. Hell, so many units have been gutted for options, with inexplicable inclusions in there just for a bit of Chaosistency (Primaris Assault Marines Sergeant w/JP can still have a Thunder Hammer... but not the Primaris Jump Pack Captain). Terminator Captain lost all his options. Most characters can now lead Tactical Squads, because [s]we've always been at war with Eastasia[s] of the removal of Primaris as a title.
Command Squad has to be led by a character - cannot ever be taken by itself - and the weapons/wargear in that unit is as much of a complete gak-show as it looked.
Combat Squads are back! For Tactical Squads. That means the Razorback is useable by more than just Devastators and Command Squads (which don't exist anymore, so really just Devastators). But Tac Squads lost access to Heavy Flamers ('cause the Sternguard kit ist kaput, and the Blood Angel Tactical Squad has been OOP for a long time; actually one of the first First Born kits to remove from the range).
The book has other wild nonsensical changes, like making the Invader ATV crew's Heavy Bolt Pistols into Bolt Pistols. Like, why make that change? Why expend the energy it takes to alter the existing profile of a gun when the two weapons are almost identical to begin with? Especially when they can be part of Outrider squads that all have Heavy Bolt Pistols. Was it necessary to add an additional complication by including a new pistol profile for 1 guy? What kind of insanity or apathy has to exist for such an asinine change to occur?
I can't tell you how many freshly made Terminator Captain with Shield coversions I've seen over the past week alone online.
I bet they're all going to be thrilled /s
I have a hard time taking people seriously when they talk about having to "remember" everything their opponents can potentially do. It's such a weird mentality to me.
Kicking off my reviews of the new Space Marine kits with the new Company Command and Sternguard. The Sternguard are super customizable, probably the most variable Primaris kit yet, but the Company Heroes are quite limited. A few weapon options for the Captain, but apart from that, no weapon or posing options, just an optional bare head for each model.
Best unexpected change (assuming goonhammer is right): terminator sergeants can swap power sword for power fist.
The long, long legacy of the sergeant being the worst guy in the squad is finally gone.
Huh. Weird callback to the Terminator chaplain getting a relic shield. It... doesn't matter much. His starting wounds are 5 and with the shield its 6, so against most weapons (unless they have a random damage number) it makes no difference. You can do weird Tetris statistics to work out when exactly it would matter, but against damage 2, 3 or 4 weapons, its 3, 2 or 2 hits regardless. It could matter if mortal wounds are invovled (because with a unit he has a 4+ shrug against MW, but.. those are now less common, so... whatever).
Welp, just watched the new codex videos and I'm going back to second edition from now on. That TACTICUS keyword addition on everything was the last straw, although the fact that my unfinished TDA Cap which cost me over 100€ in bitz alone is now unfieldable as well.
tauist wrote: Welp, just watched the new codex videos and I'm going back to second edition from now on. That TACTICUS keyword addition on everything was the last straw, although the fact that my unfinished TDA Cap which cost me over 100€ in bitz alone is now unfieldable as well.
tauist wrote: Welp, just watched the new codex videos and I'm going back to second edition from now on. That TACTICUS keyword addition on everything was the last straw, although the fact that my unfinished TDA Cap which cost me over 100€ in bitz alone is now unfieldable as well.
Great stuff #Nothingham
First of all, great recreation of a classic mini !
Pretty much feel the same way rules-wise..
I'll be picking up some new termies for Space Hulk myself. Already have twenty Deathwatch Overkill purestrain Stealers.
tauist wrote: Welp, just watched the new codex videos and I'm going back to second edition from now on. That TACTICUS keyword addition on everything was the last straw, although the fact that my unfinished TDA Cap which cost me over 100€ in bitz alone is now unfieldable as well.
Great stuff #Nothingham
It's still a very nice update on him though
I will say, it feels good to know that I'm not the only person spending way too much on warhammer bits
tauist wrote: Welp, just watched the new codex videos and I'm going back to second edition from now on. That TACTICUS keyword addition on everything was the last straw, although the fact that my unfinished TDA Cap which cost me over 100€ in bitz alone is now unfieldable as well.
Great stuff #Nothingham
Looks to me like he could be quite reasonably fielded as a termi captain with sword and storm bolter.
H.B.M.C. wrote: All gone. He gets combi-weapon or SB and either sword or fist.
Everything else is gone.
Becasue the new kit only has those four weapons. Hammer? Gone. Claws? Gone. Shield? Gone. Doesn't even have the grenade thingy!
Lame.
I'm just jazzed that Razorbacks are usable (lost TL AssCans)
Lame about the Assault Cannons.
I'll still be finishing my conversions though, since I'll still play older editions, and they'll look the nutz.
And for those that speculated: Sniper Rifles are 1 per 5 in the new Scout squad, not one per unit.
Only one in five Scouts gets a rifle? That's a bizzare decision. Guess I'll use the Legends unit with my full metal Scout Sniper squad. Or again, just play an older edition/alternative rule set.
H.B.M.C. wrote: All gone. He gets combi-weapon or SB and either sword or fist.
Everything else is gone.
Becasue the new kit only has those four weapons. Hammer? Gone. Claws? Gone. Shield? Gone. Doesn't even have the grenade thingy!
Lame.
I'm just jazzed that Razorbacks are usable (lost TL AssCans)
Lame about the Assault Cannons.
I'll still be finishing my conversions though, since I'll still play older editions, and they'll look the nutz.
And for those that speculated: Sniper Rifles are 1 per 5 in the new Scout squad, not one per unit.
Only one in five Scouts gets a rifle? That's a bizzare decision. Guess I'll use the Legends unit with my full metal Scout Sniper squad. Or again, just play an older edition/alternative rule set.
not that bizzare given that they allow split fire now, and it's actually more akin to how a small squad WORKS, with a single dedicated sniper
I'm still gonna take 'em. Ditto for Heavy Flamers in Tac Squads and Lightning Claws on Captains.
Why?
Well everything is free! There are no points costs anymore, and we know what their rules were, so why not still take them?
I'll still be finishing my conversions though, since I'll still play older editions, and they'll look the nutz.
Insectum7 wrote: Only one in five Scouts gets a rifle? That's a bizzare decision.
It's not a decision. It's just what the kit has. If the sprue of 5 Scouts had 2 Sniper Rifles then it'd be 2 out of every 5. It's the same idiocy that allows Tyranid Warriors to take one Venom Canon and one Barbed Stranger per 3 Warriors because the box has one of each.
First it was no mode/no rule. Then it was kit-based weapon restrictions (starting with Skitarii, I believe). 10th has now gone hard on box-based unit structure (why we get things like 2-model Carnifex broods, 2-model Spawn units, and the utter psychotic nonsense that is the Custodes unit sizes). It's maddeningly unnecessary, and doesn't help anyone. Not even "new players".
Really I should be more annoyed at this book: They just invalidated 60% of my Marine models in a single fell swoop. Thing is I'm far more annoyed at the loss of weapon options than the loss of units. And at absurdly stupid set units like the Company Heroes, which always has a dude with Heavy Bolter, and a dude with a Bolter, and a guy with a slightly less-good bolter, and a guy with a sword... always. Everywhere. All the time. With absolutely no options whatsoever, because that's all the kit has. Abso-fething-lutely asinine.
BrianDavion wrote: not that bizzare given that they allow split fire now, and it's actually more akin to how a small squad WORKS, with a single dedicated sniper
But that's not the reason its 1-in-5. It's 1-in-5 simply because of how the kit is. There is no other reason beyond that.
Only one in five Scouts gets a rifle? That's a bizzare decision. Guess I'll use the Legends unit with my full metal Scout Sniper squad. Or again, just play an older edition/alternative rule set.
not that bizzare given that they allow split fire now, and it's actually more akin to how a small squad WORKS, with a single dedicated sniper
Considering Intercessors can't get a Heavy or Special and numerous other Primaris (*spits*) units are mono-weapon loadout (all flamers?!), I contend that a single sniper rifle remains bizzare.
OrkPlayer137 wrote: Devastator sergeants have lost the option to take a storm bolter, even though there is a storm bolter in the box! Hopefully they fix this.
I'm sure they'll have an updated kit to remove that problematic defect from the box right away!
tauist wrote: Welp, just watched the new codex videos and I'm going back to second edition from now on. That TACTICUS keyword addition on everything was the last straw, although the fact that my unfinished TDA Cap which cost me over 100€ in bitz alone is now unfieldable as well.
Hmmm, so I wonder how well the new detachments are balanced with legends units. My Ravenwing would like to try the stormlance detachment but it is heavily loaded with bike squads, attack bikes and landspeeders.
Overall I'm very excited about the way detachments are handled. They really enable creating a cool collection of space marine stuff and run it with a variety of styles in whatever paint scheme you like. Granted, this was always effectively possible, but it feels quite encouraged.
Most of the stuff cut I'm pretty okay with. I've never been a fan of some of the excessive requirements for certain weapon loadouts and putting limits that are more in line with actual purchases is largely okay with me. Honestly, this kind of setup feels more open to random conversions mixed in for character than when it changes what the model really does. I think the one place I don't love that is with the captains though. The monopose, mono loadout trend is silly and these kits would greatly benefit from being the place where you get to really customize something with bespoke gear. That's to me a failing of the kits themselves though.
A bit worried about the actual effectiveness of this though. Glad they're keeping the power creep in check, but its been a while since I've seen what appears to be an actual downgrade for a codex. There's more "create a problem to sell you a solution" going on here than I'd like, which mostly comes down to a difference in how I feel about the codex in isolation and how it stacks up to the rest of the game.
Having played theme forces in a lot of game systems, I think I've come around to the idea that providing rewards for restricting builds isn't terribly healthy. It makes logical sense, but creates a notable barrier for players, where starting a new theme gets close to starting a new army. The main reason it exists that way is that it evolved from the idea that these are deviations from a vanilla standard.
The "all carrot, no stick" approach we have here means that while the different themes incentivize different units, shifting from one to another doesn't demand the theme be a fully thought out army. The tech pieces developed are always available and for most players they can try something new by picking up a few units and fill the gaps with their existing army.
I actually really like the new detachment system, particularly its application to a Space Marine force. I collect Ultramarines and it always bothered me that someone who had a custom chapter could pick and choose which army rules to use based on what was strong at that particular time, dipping into Iron Hands or Dark Angels etc as the current meta dictated.
This was always difficult to navigate if you were using a first founding or well developed chapter as it soft locked you from thematic armies, even if the background was full of examples of full terminator forces, scout battalions and so on.
The new detachments system lets me field that 1st company army of my dreams or the balanced tactical force (Gladius) that I feel exemplifies marines as a whole. It levels the playing field AND lets me mix it up a little to keep games interesting.
I play AoS too, and without changing a model, my Hedonites have 3 different play styles to choose from, my Seraphon have 4. I don’t need to repaint everything because ‘only red crested skinks can be blessed by Sotek’. The detachments bring this to 40K in a way that hasn’t been available before.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm actually kind of disappointed with how detachments were handled here. They should have been more akin to Armies of Renown.
What do you mean?
Look at the Vanguard Detachment and discussion surrounding it. Most of it is centered on what isn't Phobos that lets you exploit its perks the best.
Should have been locked out of taking some stuff in exchange for increased availability of other.
This is mostly a result of the detachment largely giving abilities that Phobos units already have rather than things than benefit Phobos units. Locking stuff out doesn't really fix that.
I agree with the above, I like that the new detachment system incentivises certain things while not locking you out from taking anything. I think too many people are hung up on the "everything in my army must benefit from detachment rules " style of thinking, instead of "how can i build a great army, that my detachment give bonuses to the things i really like". For example, my current unending swarm nid list still has a considerable number of monsters, its just that my little guys are better.
Specifically for the marine codex....tactical squads are back on the menu boys! Combat squads returning is great.
I like the idea of an anvilus(?) detachment made of whirlwinds and preds with dreads or devs for approx half the army,with faster moving assault elements as the other half. the problem with some previous versions of this idea (and absolutely with the theme list system in warmahordes) was being too restricive.
Admittedly i am a dark angels player, but this system is much better than "everything in your army must have the deathwing keyword" approach we have had before, as it alloows a collect to skew towards what they like, without limiting them.
This is mostly a result of the detachment largely giving abilities that Phobos units already have rather than things than benefit Phobos units.
Then maybe it's just a poorly designed detachment?
Locking stuff out doesn't really fix that.
Sure it does. Locking out or reducing availability would address a lot of my issues with this detachment. It's daft that Incursors and Infiltrators aren't allowed as Battleline, at the very least.
This is mostly a result of the detachment largely giving abilities that Phobos units already have rather than things than benefit Phobos units.
Then maybe it's just a poorly designed detachment?
Locking stuff out doesn't really fix that.
Sure it does. Locking out or reducing availability would address a lot of my issues with this detachment. It's daft that Incursors and Infiltrators aren't allowed as Battleline, at the very least.
I'd say no to locking stuff out but i would 100% say yes to detachment making specific units Battleline (and double their OC)
Then what's the point of having these themed setups if there's no actual bite to them?
Seriously, this whole book is just wishywashy. Vanguard Spearhead should have drastically reduced, if not locked out, huge chunks of stuff. Same with the other themed detachments.
Kanluwen wrote: Then what's the point of having these themed setups if there's no actual bite to them?
Seriously, this whole book is just wishywashy. Vanguard Spearhead should have drastically reduced, if not locked out, huge chunks of stuff. Same with the other themed detachments.
There should be restrictions in the detachment, just not "you litterally cannot bring x unit" restrictions.
For example, make the vanguard detachment affect mostly phobos instead of everything, you can still play the crusader squads, but not infiltrate them for example
(although i think snowflake marines should be treated like the snowflake CSM legions and be their own standalone books but thats another topic)
I also appreciate that if my detachment style of choice is bad I can adapt while still retaining much of what I like about the army. That won't always be the case, particularly if you are heavily skewed, but its a good direction I think feels a lot more fun than buying a book for "your" portion of it.
There's the Gladius as the "basic" detachment. That's where the "take whatever you want" should be.
The point is you're not locking a Salamander player out of playing bikes if theyre playing the salamander detachment for example.
No, they absolutely should be. Just like a Raven Guard player should be locked out of big tanks if they're running Vanguard.
From a fluff point of view, absolutely. From a gameplay point of view, rewarding "vanguard-y" units instead of restricting the "non vanguard-y" is a better approach IMO.
LunarSol wrote:I also appreciate that if my detachment style of choice is bad I can adapt while still retaining much of what I like about the army. That won't always be the case, particularly if you are heavily skewed, but its a good direction I think feels a lot more fun than buying a book for "your" portion of it.
I'm already stuck buying a huge book with just a single Raven Guard character in it these days. I'm 100% in for them doing restrictive themed detachments. It's not like the detachments are locked to specific Chapters though.
We knew what a Vanguard Spearhead is. It's not containing any non-Phobos or Scout elements. We also know that every Codex-Compliant Chapter is supposed to have one. It consists of 100 full Marines(a good chunk of which are individuals who have served in the First Companies), and the recruit elements.
VladimirHerzog wrote: From a fluff point of view, absolutely. From a gameplay point of view, rewarding "vanguard-y" units instead of restricting the "non vanguard-y" is a better approach IMO.
I don't think we'll agree on that one tho.
Here's the issue. They didn't do either of those.
It's just a lazy framework that they released. After we saw the Tyranids book, I was excited for Marines. That excitement has been pretty heavily dashed.
This is mostly a result of the detachment largely giving abilities that Phobos units already have rather than things than benefit Phobos units.
Then maybe it's just a poorly designed detachment?
It very well could be if the goal is to get people to play Phobos only, but I've never gotten the impression that Phobos only chapters are actually a thing.
Sure it does. Locking out or reducing availability would address a lot of my issues with this detachment. It's daft that Incursors and Infiltrators aren't allowed as Battleline, at the very least.
You might feel better about it in the sense that you feel the detachment is properly gated to your preferences, but it does little to improve the detachment itself. No amount of restrictions is going to make giving Infiltrate to units that largely already have Infiltrate attractive.
This is mostly a result of the detachment largely giving abilities that Phobos units already have rather than things than benefit Phobos units.
Then maybe it's just a poorly designed detachment?
It very well could be if the goal is to get people to play Phobos only, but I've never gotten the impression that Phobos only chapters are actually a thing.
There's literally an entire Phobos Company for Codex Compliant Chapters. The 10th is literally called "The Vanguard Company" now.
Raven Guard(and their close Successors) have been fielding their First Company and Second Company elements in Phobos as well.
So while "Phobos only Chapters" might not necessarily be a thing, there's still more possibilities for Phobos forces.
Sure it does. Locking out or reducing availability would address a lot of my issues with this detachment. It's daft that Incursors and Infiltrators aren't allowed as Battleline, at the very least.
You might feel better about it in the sense that you feel the detachment is properly gated to your preferences, but it does little to improve the detachment itself. No amount of restrictions is going to make giving Infiltrate to units that largely already have Infiltrate attractive.
Incursors, Reivers, and Invictors(which is Phobos keyworded for some reason) have Scout, not Infiltrate.
But like I said anyways, it's a poorly designed detachment. It's clear that the intention was just to make <Not-Chapter> detachments, rather than actual interesting themed forces.
LunarSol wrote: They are variations in playstyle rather than subfactions.
Yes, variations in playstyle that really don't change what units do...
You'd have more of a point if there were genuine shifts. But literally all the discussion I've seen is about how to cram the "best" units into the Vanguard Detachment, with leaders to get the most bang for your buck for the times where it lets you pick a non-Phobos thing for a stratagem.
LunarSol wrote: They are variations in playstyle rather than subfactions.
Yes, variations in playstyle that really don't change what units do...
You'd have more of a point if there were genuine shifts. But literally all the discussion I've seen is about how to cram the "best" units into the Vanguard Detachment, with leaders to get the most bang for your buck for the times where it lets you pick a non-Phobos thing for a stratagem.
And to that, I don't disagree that it's poorly designed to showcase Phobos units.
I personally like the new detachments and look forward to trying them out with my Dark Angels.
And this is a big part of why I have such an issue with them.
They were made too generic, to the point where the Chapters that are literally going to get their own books with their own detachments, are able to plug and play while the opposite isn't true.
Kanluwen wrote: Then what's the point of having these themed setups if there's no actual bite to them?
I said the exact same thing when Detachments were first talked about, and people screamed at me for even suggesting that something like a 1st Company Detachment only have access to Veteran units.
Battleline is something that should be determined not by units, but by detachment. It should be a rule.
Battleline = can be taken up to 6 times rather than 3, and double OC (naturally things that are currently Battleline and OC2 would go to OC1 and not be Battleline by default).
cuda1179 wrote: Question on Scouts: Is it one Sniper OR Missile Launcher per 5 guys, or is one sniper AND missile per 5 guys?
Last I saw it was in addition to the heavy.
Well, that's good, I guess. I have a bunch of unpainted sniper scouts. Since they are now free upgrades I may as well get a bunch of missile guys and spread them out amongst my different marine armies, so those sniper scouts aren't wasted.
There's the Gladius as the "basic" detachment. That's where the "take whatever you want" should be.
The point is you're not locking a Salamander player out of playing bikes if theyre playing the salamander detachment for example.
No, they absolutely should be. Just like a Raven Guard player should be locked out of big tanks if they're running Vanguard.
That's a terrible idea - you're flandering GW's factions for them.
Despite the fact that those chapters have preferences, they STILL USE those units. You're taking 'preference' and trying to apply it as an arbitrary restriction for no reason whatsoever.
I personally like the new detachments and look forward to trying them out with my Dark Angels.
And this is a big part of why I have such an issue with them.
They were made too generic, to the point where the Chapters that are literally going to get their own books with their own detachments, are able to plug and play while the opposite isn't true.
The opposite is ALSO true. Its one of the big marine advantages for list building in 10th. As long as you don't bring any chapter-locked units (from other chapters), any mariens can use DA or BA or SW detachments as their own.
Once DA comes out, ALL marines will have 10-12 detachments to choose from. When BA comes out, all marines will have ~15-18 detachments to choose from.
The opposite is ALSO true. Its one of the big marine advantages for list building in 10th. As long as you don't bring any chapter-locked units (from other chapters), any mariens can use DA or BA or SW detachments as their own.
Once DA comes out, ALL marines will have 10-12 detachments to choose from. When BA comes out, all marines will have ~15-18 detachments to choose from.
Its dumb either way. DA/BA/SW/BT should be standalone codexes, not supplements, just like TS/DG/WE are for CSM.
Despite the fact that those chapters have preferences, they STILL USE those units. You're taking 'preference' and trying to apply it as an arbitrary restriction for no reason whatsoever.
But then you hit a design problem in that the units are all compared to each other and balancing and style becomes harder. How to make a different style army, that isn't more powerful than regular, if all you can do is add things? Balance and theme is easier when you can restrict units to work with the new ones.
But then you hit a design problem in that the units are all compared to each other and balancing and style becomes harder. How to make a different style army, that isn't more powerful than regular, if all you can do is add things? Balance and theme is easier when you can restrict units to work with the new ones.
Because youre not just adding stuff. you're picking from one thing to add.
It's not :
Base + A + B + C
It's :
Base + A
or
Base + B
or
Base + C
so if you make ABC have a similar impact, you'll achieve relative balance. The real problem is that GW decided to make it
(Base+noncompliant) + A/B/C.
Despite the fact that those chapters have preferences, they STILL USE those units. You're taking 'preference' and trying to apply it as an arbitrary restriction for no reason whatsoever.
But then you hit a design problem in that the units are all compared to each other and balancing and style becomes harder. How to make a different style army, that isn't more powerful than regular, if all you can do is add things? Balance and theme is easier when you can restrict units to work with the new ones.
That's the point of every army having to take a detachment rule.... those rules are (ostensibly) balanced against one another so hot swapping them should make no difference.
I find the idea of forcing people to play flanderised army lists if they want to use their preferred army much worse than having swappable detachment rules.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Could someone summarise for me what old marine units have been removed from the codex? Not fussed about wargear options.
1. First Born Captain. 2. First Born Captain w/Jump Pack. 3. First Born Captain w/Bike. 4. First Born Lieutenant. 5. First Born Librarian. 6. First Born Chaplain. 7. First Born Techmarine. 8. Astartes Servitors. 9. First Born Librarian w/Jump Pack. 10. Scout Sniper Squad. 11. Primaris Company Champion. 12. First Born Command Squad. 13. Vanguard Vet Squad. 14. Relic Terminator Squad. 15. Contemptor Dreadnought. 16. Ironclad Dreadnought. 17. First Born Assault Squad. 18. First Born Assault Squad w/Jump Packs. 19. Bike Squad. 20. Scout Bike Squad. 21. Attack Bike Squad. 22. Land Speeder. 23. Land Speeder Tornado. 24. Land Speeder Typhoon. 25. Thunderfire Cannon. 26. Hunter. 27. Stalker. 28. Land Speeder Storm.
I find the idea of forcing people to play flanderised army lists if they want to use their preferred army much worse than having swappable detachment rules.
Yeah, people get hung out on the names of the detachments too much, sure its called a "vanguard" detachment but its not a "vanguard company", its just a detachment that likes to play outside its deployment.
Locking out options because of fluff is the reason why so many SM legions feel boring.
No, White scars didnt forget their Heavy tanks
No, salamanders don't only use flamers/melta
No, Imperial fists don't only use bolt weapons
No, world eaters don't only use melee
etc.
