But then you hit a design problem in that the units are all compared to each other and balancing and style becomes harder. How to make a different style army, that isn't more powerful than regular, if all you can do is add things? Balance and theme is easier when you can restrict units to work with the new ones.
Because youre not just adding stuff. you're picking from one thing to add.
It's not :
Base + A + B + C
It's :
Base + A
or
Base + B
or
Base + C
so if you make ABC have a similar impact, you'll achieve relative balance. The real problem is that GW decided to make it
(Base+noncompliant) + A/B/C.
You're getting hung up on the noncompliant, but Guilliman is as impactful as any of them.
I find the idea of forcing people to play flanderised army lists if they want to use their preferred army much worse than having swappable detachment rules.
Funny, I feel that these detachments are a much, much bigger example of flanderising than anything else. It waters things that used to be Chapter/Primarch specific down to just being "and now everyone can do it!".
This isn't like the Tyranids, where the elements of those detachments might be found universally. No matter the Hive Fleet, it's a good chance they had Vanguard Swarms, Crusher Stampedes, etc.
The Marines? Not so much.
Yeah, people get hung out on the names of the detachments too much, sure its called a "vanguard" detachment but its not a "vanguard company", its just a detachment that likes to play outside its deployment.
Spoiler:
It's a "Vanguard Spearhead". The Vanguard Company is a specific organization within the Codex Compliant Chapters, and it happens to be the one that is the most restrictive across all of the Codex Chapters.
What exactly should I be focused on then? The description and the actual name point towards it being stealthy and full of Phobos. It doesn't suggest being full of Gravis, Dreadnoughts, and tanks. I happen to know the lore behind the Phobos stuff, and the 10th Company having specific elements is entirely a thing that you should focus upon.
You can try to pretend this is watering things down or whatever, but the simple fact is these detachments are boring. They're exactly the issue that cropped up with the Build Your Own Successor Chapters and the Codex Supplements we had for the other Founding Chapters:
There's no actual trade-offs. It will always be the same cookie-cutter crap no matter what, based upon some nebulous "meta" that a good chunk of people will never actually have exposure to in a serious manner yet the calls for balance and nerfing will always ruin everyone else's fun in friendly settings.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Could someone summarise for me what old marine units have been removed from the codex? Not fussed about wargear options.
1. First Born Captain.
2. First Born Captain w/Jump Pack.
3. First Born Captain w/Bike.
4. First Born Lieutenant.
5. First Born Librarian.
6. First Born Chaplain.
7. First Born Techmarine.
8. Astartes Servitors.
9. First Born Librarian w/Jump Pack.
10. Scout Sniper Squad.
11. Primaris Company Champion.
12. First Born Command Squad.
13. Vanguard Vet Squad.
14. Relic Terminator Squad.
15. Contemptor Dreadnought.
16. Ironclad Dreadnought.
17. First Born Assault Squad.
18. First Born Assault Squad w/Jump Packs.
19. Bike Squad.
20. Scout Bike Squad.
21. Attack Bike Squad.
22. Land Speeder.
23. Land Speeder Tornado.
24. Land Speeder Typhoon.
25. Thunderfire Cannon.
26. Hunter.
27. Stalker.
28. Land Speeder Storm.
I mean they also removed the "primaris" versions of all of those characters if we're playing technicalities. It's just "captain with jump pack" without referencing which generation of marine it is unless you want to get hung up on the tacticus keyword.
Even if you ignore the firstborn/primaris divide, and the wargear options lost, that’s still a lot of classic stuff for the dusty back of the legends shelf.
You might be able to counts-as a chunk of it, but by no means all of it.
Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
A Rhino counting as an Impulsor without upgrades is another possibility, if you build the Rhino with dual storm bolters (which 9th edition and earlier used to allow) and only need to carry at most 6 models.
The basic stats are very similar, aside for one more wound on the Impulsor and the Rhino's self-repair rule. The Impulsor gets a larger firing deck, but may not make a big difference in many cases, depending on what you put in it.
I did have the thought of just saying 'eff it and using Rhinos as Impulsors, but there's some decent dimensional differences and I think proxying units that also still exist in the rules is just confusing for other players.
Prometheum5 wrote: I did have the thought of just saying 'eff it and using Rhinos as Impulsors, but there's some decent dimensional differences and I think proxying units that also still exist in the rules is just confusing for other players.
I see, I have not looked closely at the two models next to each other, so I had not noticed the size differences.
I also often find proxies confusing if there are significant differences. In cases like this where the are minimal rules differences though, I suppose one way around it is to just ignore those Impulsor rules that the Rhino does not have - so pretend it has 10 wounds instead of 11, and only allow 2 models to shoot out. That way there is no rules advantage for your opponent to be confused over, aside from allowing Primaris transport....although I can the difference in dimensions might be cause for disagreement with some opponents.
I'm considering trying that in friendly games if I still want my Sternguard to ride in a Rhino (at most 6 at a time).
Nevelon wrote: Even if you ignore the firstborn/primaris divide, and the wargear options lost, that’s still a lot of classic stuff for the dusty back of the legends shelf.
You might be able to counts-as a chunk of it, but by no means all of it.
I've basically been forced to play CSM now, since nearly 3/4ths of my army is legends or otherwise illegal.
Spoiler:
As of now, only my tactical squads, Chapter-Master, and devestator squads are still usable without legends. (Not pictured is a land-raider and second Libby) I had two company-vet squads, old-school command squad, 3 lieutenants, a jump-pack chaplain, assault marines, and a land speeder.
And people ask me why I hate it whenever a new Primaris unit is announced.
Nevelon wrote: Even if you ignore the firstborn/primaris divide, and the wargear options lost, that’s still a lot of classic stuff for the dusty back of the legends shelf.
You might be able to counts-as a chunk of it, but by no means all of it.
I've basically been forced to play CSM now, since nearly 3/4ths of my army is legends or otherwise illegal.
Spoiler:
As of now, only my tactical squads, Chapter-Master, and devestator squads are still usable without legends. (Not pictured is a land-raider and second Libby) I had two company-vet squads, old-school command squad, 3 lieutenants, a jump-pack chaplain, assault marines, and a land speeder.
And people ask me why I hate it whenever a new Primaris unit is announced.
I’m going to wait until I have book in hand before I do a true reckoning.
Some stuff is close enough if we are ignoring the firstborn/primaris divide. I’ve got 20 assault marines. They can take the field as assault intercessors w/ JPs. The guys with flamers will need to sit things out, but I think only one of the 4 special weapon guys has his flamer glued on.
Sad to see the ironclad dread go away. I’ve got spare arms to swap, so even in death he can serve. Just a little longer range and less choppy then before.
Speeders and TFC are just gone. I’ve always loved my speeders, and the new ones do not fill the same role. They always hung out at “effective enough to do some damage, but not so bad they float to the top of the targeting queue” The new ones are full up glass hammers. Fast, hard hitting, and hard to hide. But still fragile.
Could I counts-as all my bikes (scouts or otherwise) as outriders? Maybe. But their job was fast application of special weapons (or tool box of tricks on the scouts) so completely different battlefield role.
Sniper scouts will get doled out into other squads. Will not need the 10 I have (plus Talion) I’m no stranger to having more minis then I could use though. I’ve got more captains than a chapter has companies (buy quite a few) and more tac squads then sense.
Hunter could take the field as a Vindi. Rhino chassis with one big gun? Sure.
I play 100% painted and as close to WYSWYG as I can manage. This is a brutal edition change. I’m not happy.
But I still enjoy the game, still love painting models (the new ones mostly look awesome). Just sad for all the legacy stuff that’s being quietly sunsetted out of the main book. And I do recognize that the SM range was a bloated mess. This isn’t how I’d have fixed it, but I wasn’t a fan of the whole primaris rollout to start.
Prometheum5 wrote: Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
There's a carve out that allows non-tacticus units being led by a tacticus leader to ride in rhinos.
So to answer your question directly, nothing really changed for you unless it's a unit that completely hit Legends. Still gotta stick with Firstborn units, but you definitely did lose your Assault squad on foot and Vanguard veteran squads on foot, which I assume only like three collectors ever actually had.
Prometheum5 wrote: Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
There's a carve out that allows non-tacticus units being led by a tacticus leader to ride in rhinos.
So to answer your question directly, nothing really changed for you unless it's a unit that completely hit Legends. Still gotta stick with Firstborn units, but you definitely did lose your Assault squad on foot and Vanguard veteran squads on foot, which I assume only like three collectors ever actually had.
I magnetized the backpacks for 10 of my AMs and my VVs. There were some very niche uses for them. In 5th you could swap the JPs from the AM for a free drop pod. Helped boost your pod count for maximal 1st turn drop, and gave a place for characters like Cassius to hang out.
I’ve had pack-less VVs charge down the assault ramp of a LR before. For editions where there was a 10 cargo capacity it was easier to fit characters in their squad than termis.
For general use? JPs were almost always the way to go. But I’ve fielded them over the years without to some good effect. Although honestly, not particularly sad to see the option go away.
Dudeface wrote: Pretty sure the contents page (best pic I had to hand) very clearly just says "captain" or "Lieutenant".
The First Born units, and their options, are gone. The Primaris units, and their limited set builds, are still there. All that they lost is the word 'Primaris'.
I think an Assault Squad on foot could proxy for Assault Intercessors on foot in much the same way that a Jump Pack Assault Squad could proxy for Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs, aside from the lack of extra plasma pistols for the non-Jump Assault Intercessors.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What are my Flamer and Eviscerator Assault Mariners going to proxy as then?
We got flamers in 4th and eviscerators in 6th? So just hold on until 14th and 16th edition for assault intercessors to get them. Will be here before you know it.
I cut plasma pistol arms off of AMs to give them flamers. Full circle I guess.
Prometheum5 wrote: Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
There's a carve out that allows non-tacticus units being led by a tacticus leader to ride in rhinos.
So to answer your question directly, nothing really changed for you unless it's a unit that completely hit Legends. Still gotta stick with Firstborn units, but you definitely did lose your Assault squad on foot and Vanguard veteran squads on foot, which I assume only like three collectors ever actually had.
I actually had some on-foot vanguard vets in the works to give me some flexibility in delivery method, as 10 vanguard-vets on foot in a rhino/land raider, is cheaper than the alternatives and would allow me to have a budget-option if I wanted it.
I have two on-foot Assault Marine squads and a full unit of on-foot Vanguard Marines (made up of original metal Veterans, including some very rare ones).
I really hope that Legends document gets updated Saturday week...
H.B.M.C. wrote: I have two on-foot Assault Marine squads and a full unit of on-foot Vanguard Marines (made up of original metal Veterans, including some very rare ones).
I really hope that Legends document gets updated Saturday week...
Decent legends support will make me feel a lot better about this whole thing. Time will tell.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I have two on-foot Assault Marine squads and a full unit of on-foot Vanguard Marines (made up of original metal Veterans, including some very rare ones).
I really hope that Legends document gets updated Saturday week...
Decent legends support will make me feel a lot better about this whole thing. Time will tell.
Same, I'd at least have one more edition with my army, and by extention, a whole edition to make firstborn version of Primaris units. I've already got a judiciar and Infernus marines made, If I can limp along (along with playing CSM with the dead stuff) and I'll be able to deal with it.
I'm not much of a 40k player, mainly because I don't hobby fast enough to hit the moving target that is the play environment with finished armies. I've got an entire 'vintage' Blood Angels 3rd Company and 'modern' 2nd Company in various states, with full motor pools and HQ structures that I always figured would be my two go-to sources of models to make armies if I really got into playing. I also enjoy the Primaris models and have happily been building dedicated Primaris forces in other SM chapters, but it doesn't feel awesome to have something like 20 years of collecting in my BA stuff become mostly unusable outside of awkward semi-proxying that'll never hold up to the limited, mostly tournament-setting play opportunities in my local community.
Hell, I didn't even get to field the 1000pt Primaris Ultramarines force I was building out of the three modern starterbox forces yet.
Of the units that got completely squatted in the new codex, I own:
10 on-foot Assault Marines (2 squads of 5 with 2 flamers in each)
5 Jump Assault Marines (one has flamer)
Various former Command Squad stuff including two Apothecaries, a Company Champion, two Ancients, and other veterans that might be usable as Sternguard or something
2 Land Speeder Tornados
3 Land Speeder Typhoons
2 Assault Cannon Razorbacks
4 Attack Bikes (including one that is still NIB)
20-odd Ravenwing Bikers
A kitbashed Jump Pack Librarian
At least one or two Captains with loadouts that are now illegal
12 Sniper Scouts
Possibly some Tactical/Devastator Sergeants with illegal loadouts (not sure what is or is not legal on those currently)
Maybe more that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but this is a big gut punch to my longtime Dark Angels collection. The writing's been on the wall since the start of 8th, but now it's finally happening and I'm trying to decide what to do with these models. I'm also acutely aware that the same fate is likely going to befall my Tacticals and Devastators once 11th comes in three years' time (probably). I'm thinking very strongly of selling them to my FLGS (they'll end up in the used model bins) for store credit to buy some new models with. Or maybe I should just box them up and save them, although they don't have any real sentimental value to me as a lot of them are not even painted (the Assault guys and the Razorbacks in particular I only bought to run that one busted formation in 7th).
ZergSmasher wrote: Of the units that got completely squatted in the new codex, I own:
10 on-foot Assault Marines (2 squads of 5 with 2 flamers in each)
5 Jump Assault Marines (one has flamer)
Various former Command Squad stuff including two Apothecaries, a Company Champion, two Ancients, and other veterans that might be usable as Sternguard or something
2 Land Speeder Tornados
3 Land Speeder Typhoons
2 Assault Cannon Razorbacks
4 Attack Bikes (including one that is still NIB)
20-odd Ravenwing Bikers
A kitbashed Jump Pack Librarian
At least one or two Captains with loadouts that are now illegal
12 Sniper Scouts
Possibly some Tactical/Devastator Sergeants with illegal loadouts (not sure what is or is not legal on those currently)
Maybe more that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but this is a big gut punch to my longtime Dark Angels collection. The writing's been on the wall since the start of 8th, but now it's finally happening and I'm trying to decide what to do with these models. I'm also acutely aware that the same fate is likely going to befall my Tacticals and Devastators once 11th comes in three years' time (probably). I'm thinking very strongly of selling them to my FLGS (they'll end up in the used model bins) for store credit to buy some new models with. Or maybe I should just box them up and save them, although they don't have any real sentimental value to me as a lot of them are not even painted (the Assault guys and the Razorbacks in particular I only bought to run that one busted formation in 7th).
I have a fully painted Ultramarines army that dates back to 5th Edition - it went to tournaments and appeared in a long-lost issue of WD. It's now almost entirely 'illegal', in part because the Marines aren't on 32mm bases. It's the fate of virtually anything you build now for this hobby. I'm keeping these models because they are still attractive to look at and they do hold sentimental value. I think the increasing churn rate is a disincentive to spending that much time and effort on models. Hopefully once the whole Marine range is Primaris sized the models will have some longevity.
Dudeface wrote: Pretty sure the contents page (best pic I had to hand) very clearly just says "captain" or "Lieutenant".
The First Born units, and their options, are gone. The Primaris units, and their limited set builds, are still there. All that they lost is the word 'Primaris'.
I think you knew this is what I meant...
No I didn't and others may not. Stating that "first both captains" have been retired to legends if you have an old multi-part marine captain with power sword and plasma pistol is factually incorrect. You can happily still field that captain mini entirely game legal. The only difference is it has the tacticus keyword to represent it's supposed to be in mk10 armour.
Yes some wargear options have gone, but that's not the same statement as "you cannot use this model as it doesn't exist".
make primaris biggerist bigger space marines to replace the others and then change rules to force people to buy the new ones, they sell well.
4D chess move, bring back ultra classic super duper space marine MK7 and see the entire space marine range to marine players again, change the rules to force this to happen. They sell well.
Dudeface wrote: You can happily still field that captain mini entirely game legal. The only difference is it has the tacticus keyword to represent it's supposed to be in mk10 armour.
Dudeface wrote: You can happily still field that captain mini entirely game legal. The only difference is it has the tacticus keyword to represent it's supposed to be in mk10 armour.
With his Storm Bolter or Combi-Weapon?
Thank you for ignoring the section I said some wargear options are gone. However reduction of options is not the same as saying firstborn captains are gone.
Dudeface wrote: You can happily still field that captain mini entirely game legal. The only difference is it has the tacticus keyword to represent it's supposed to be in mk10 armour.
With his Storm Bolter or Combi-Weapon?
Thank you for ignoring the section I said some wargear options are gone. However reduction of options is not the same as saying firstborn captains are gone.
I also don't see why the SB can't be counted as a MC bolt rifle.
Another thing to consider for anyone with a character with an illegal loadout: GW needs to keep releasing more models over time, so we might get e.g. combi-weapons back on captains at some point. Might need to get lucky about which melee weapon it can be paired with...
I think most of my firstborn will proxy ok for Primaris, although I'll have to put some effort into swapping a few weapons or building new models here and there to replace illegal loadouts.
Aside from Land Speeders and an Ironclad, my biggest future concern is Devastators - they don't proxy easily for Eradicators, Desolators, etc.
It's a "Vanguard Spearhead". The Vanguard Company is a specific organization within the Codex Compliant Chapters, and it happens to be the one that is the most restrictive across all of the Codex Chapters.
What exactly should I be focused on then? The description and the actual name point towards it being stealthy and full of Phobos. It doesn't suggest being full of Gravis, Dreadnoughts, and tanks. I happen to know the lore behind the Phobos stuff, and the 10th Company having specific elements is entirely a thing that you should focus upon.
You can try to pretend this is watering things down or whatever, but the simple fact is these detachments are boring. They're exactly the issue that cropped up with the Build Your Own Successor Chapters and the Codex Supplements we had for the other Founding Chapters:
There's no actual trade-offs. It will always be the same cookie-cutter crap no matter what, based upon some nebulous "meta" that a good chunk of people will never actually have exposure to in a serious manner yet the calls for balance and nerfing will always ruin everyone else's fun in friendly settings.
I think out and out banning minis can be bad for people's collections (see, well, much of the thread) but would tend to agree with you.
GW's justification for moving from subfactions to detachments was that you could run less flanderised stuff. If you want to play Raven Wing Terminators and/or Tanks - that's fine, you can. They exist, they would go into battle. Odds are however that they'd operate very similarly to how Ultramarine or Salamander Terminators and Tanks operate. Take the Terminator or Tank detachment to indicate this.
But if you want to play a Vanguard - "slipping through the shadows, covert specialists encircling the foe" etc - then, as you say, its a bit weird that the optimal choice for this might be Gravis, Dreads, Tanks etc. I'm sure in the fluff Raven Wing put sound suppressors on their armour, and their Centurion Devastators etc are just as adept at sneaking up on people as their Phobos-armoured brothers. But it seems like a reach. Why bother with Phobos at all if that were the case?
Nerfs to non-fluffy choices in detachments could work - but GW's never been very successful at this. You always end up with major power gaps as certain detachments are competitively crippled - while others nerf units you were never going to take anyway so basically don't matter. Arguably this applies even more to unit restrictions.
Admittedly I don't have a better answer. Which perhaps is why GW ended up where we are. But I agree its unsatisfying.
You shouldn't be banning units for these formations. That's a backwards way of doing it (and shows a lack of imagination and flexibility). You should instead reward "correct" choices.
I think with something like the Vanguard detachment, the -1 to hit shouldn't apply to the entire army, but rather a subset. Now the units that should get it would need some sort of identifier. Hmm perhaps we could call it a keyword, yes I think that would work. Then we could apply it to 'fluffy' choices, but not to something like a Land Raider, but without wholesale restricting them, or even making them worse, they just aren't made better by the detachment.
But then again I think basing the entirety of space marines around Oath of Moment was silly, combat doctrines should have been the Army Rule, and Oath of Moment the detachment rule for First Compant.
Dawnbringer wrote: I think with something like the Vanguard detachment, the -1 to hit shouldn't apply to the entire army, but rather a subset.
Then we're back to the things people complained about in 9th (and even 8th), where certain models were only worth taking in certain sub-factions because those units got specific free boosts in specific factions.
Keeping them army-wide is a far better and simpler solution.
Dawnbringer wrote: I think with something like the Vanguard detachment, the -1 to hit shouldn't apply to the entire army, but rather a subset.
Then we're back to the things people complained about in 9th (and even 8th), where certain models were only worth taking in certain sub-factions because those units got specific free boosts in specific factions.
Keeping them army-wide is a far better and simpler solution.
Sorry, but you'll need to explain how that solution goes with what you said here:
H.B.M.C. wrote: You shouldn't be banning units for these formations. That's a backwards way of doing it (and shows a lack of imagination and flexibility). You should instead reward "correct" choices.
Basically you are saying (at the same time) that they shouldn't ban units, they should reward correct choices, but they should apply bonuses across the whole army.
Because Detachments should be about army structure, and how that plays into the overall game.
Detachments shouldn't determine what you can and cannot take. They should be determining what the core of your force is.
Think of it this way:
When you look at a Vanguard force, what is the core of such an army? Phobos units, right? When you think of a 1st Company force, what is the core of such an army? Terminators and Veterans, naturally! When you think of a Stormlance force, what is the core of such an army? Bikes and speeders and maybe even jump packers, it would seem.
But what are the cores of each of these forces?
Intercessors. Assault Intercessors. Heavy Intercessors. Tactical Squads*.
Battleline never changes, and that, I believe, is the core problem. Because no detachment actually changes the structure of your army, you can actually make the same list in any detachment.
(And this isn't a Marine problem; a Tyranid Crusher Stampede still has Gaunts as Battleline)
I've said this before on many occasions in other threads: No unit should have the Battleline keyword. Battleline shouldn't even be a keyword. It should be a USR that grants two things:
1. You can take 6 of that unit rather than 3. 2. You either double or add +1 to your OC value (which of those two is more appropriate is open for debate).
And then your Detachment states what is Battleline and what is not. Now your detachment, which is already geared (but not locked, importantly) towards a certain style of play, is rewarded for simply taking those units. They're not being given extra special rules (ie. only Phobos get Stealth, only Mounted get Advance & Charge, etc.), they're just being made the core of the army. You are rewarded for playing the intended style, not punished for going against it, and not given extra special rules that make only those units viable in that specific detachment (ie. a Phobos unit would always do the same thing regardless of which detachment its in, but in only one is it Battleline).
You can still take a detachment that goes against that (ie. filling a 1st Company detachment with Scouts and Biker Chaplains), by simply taking the units that fit more with that list, but you have the choice.
That's alot hanging on people caring about +1 OC and being able to take 6 of something. I can't see anyone taking six of any phobos unit just like I doubt people are taking six tac or intercessor squads. Might as well just not bother with detachments at all if that's all they are going to do. Rule of three with there being so many variations of units means very unlikely to hit the max unless something is a poorly balanced 'must take'. Hell, there are three varieties of phobos squads, you could take six jump pack squads (reg + van vets) etc.
That said, I do think battle line should change with detachments, I'm surprised it doesn't.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Detachments should be about army structure, and how that plays into the overall game.
Detachments shouldn't determine what you can and cannot take. They should be determining what the core of your force is.
Think of it this way:
When you look at a Vanguard force, what is the core of such an army? Phobos units, right?
When you think of a 1st Company force, what is the core of such an army? Terminators and Veterans, naturally!
When you think of a Stormlance force, what is the core of such an army? Bikes and speeders and maybe even jump packers, it would seem.
But what are the cores of each of these forces?
Intercessors.
Assault Intercessors.
Heavy Intercessors.
Tactical Squads*.
Battleline never changes, and that, I believe, is the core problem. Because no detachment actually changes the structure of your army, you can actually make the same list in any detachment.
(And this isn't a Marine problem; a Tyranid Crusher Stampede still has Gaunts as Battleline)
I've said this before on many occasions in other threads: No unit should have the Battleline keyword. Battleline shouldn't even be a keyword. It should be a USR that grants two things:
1. You can take 6 of that unit rather than 3.
2. You either double or add +1 to your OC value (which of those two is more appropriate is open for debate).
And then your Detachment states what is Battleline and what is not. Now your detachment, which is already geared (but not locked, importantly) towards a certain style of play, is rewarded for simply taking those units. They're not being given extra special rules (ie. only Phobos get Stealth, only Mounted get Advance & Charge, etc.), they're just being made the core of the army. You are rewarded for playing the intended style, not punished for going against it, and not given extra special rules that make only those units viable in that specific detachment (ie. a Phobos unit would always do the same thing regardless of which detachment its in, but in only one is it Battleline).
You can still take a detachment that goes against that (ie. filling a 1st Company detachment with Scouts and Biker Chaplains), by simply taking the units that fit more with that list, but you have the choice.
*Assuming they kept Battleline in the new book.
That's alot hanging on people caring about +1 OC and being able to take 6 of something. I can't see anyone taking six of any phobos unit just like I doubt people are taking six tac or intercessor squads Might as well just not bother.
That said, I do think battle line should change with detachments, I'm surprised it doesn't.
That only becomes relevant if battleline becomes relevant, which it isn't largely.
Dawnbringer wrote: That's alot hanging on people caring about +1 OC and being able to take 6 of something. I can't see anyone taking six of any phobos unit just like I doubt people are taking six tac or intercessor squads.
Hi, I'm that anyone! Unless I've missed something, Combat Squads are gone. That makes a huge difference when going from 10s splitting into 5s and straight taking 5s.
It means you're going from the wildly excessive 90 models made up of Reivers, Infiltrators and Incursors for Ro3(3*10 three times) to 45 models. For someone wanting to recreate the Vanguard Company, this is a huge change.
Last I checked you can still take them in squads of 10.
That said I'm confused a bit, as you say 90 models is wildly excessive, but then say you are trying to recreate the whole company which would be ~ 100 models by my count.
Dawnbringer wrote: Last I checked you can still take them in squads of 10.
That said I'm confused a bit, as you say 90 models is wildly excessive, but then say you are trying to recreate the whole company which would be ~ 100 models by my count.
You know how Infiltrators and Incursors were Troops before?
And how Reivers were Elites?
And how you completely ignored my comment about Combat Squads?
You can absolutely, 100% take them in units of 10...but that doesn't really help what I was talking about? I cannot be the only person out there who organized their stuff based upon the idea of Combat Squads rather than just min-maxing.
I ran 3 units of 10 Infiltrators, 2 of 10 Incursors--all of which combat squadded out to make that 50 models feel more hefty.
Add in 3 units of 10 Reivers to bump those numbers up to 80 Phobos Marines, making it into 16 5 model squads.
The remaining 20 bodies consisted of Suppressors, Eliminators, and Invictors in no real order. Swapping one squad out for an Invictor(or a trio of them) wasn't hard to puzzle out, numerically, and since the Suppressors and Eliminators were both fluffed as the "fire support" guys of the Vanguard Company? it stays fluffy!
I can't do that set up now without running huge blobs of supposed independently operating specialist infiltration/terror troops.
Dawnbringer wrote: Last I checked you can still take them in squads of 10.
That said I'm confused a bit, as you say 90 models is wildly excessive, but then say you are trying to recreate the whole company which would be ~ 100 models by my count.
You know how Infiltrators and Incursors were Troops before?
And how Reivers were Elites?
And how you completely ignored my comment about Combat Squads?
You can absolutely, 100% take them in units of 10...but that doesn't really help what I was talking about? I cannot be the only person out there who organized their stuff based upon the idea of Combat Squads rather than just min-maxing.
I ran 3 units of 10 Infiltrators, 2 of 10 Incursors--all of which combat squadded out to make that 50 models feel more hefty.
Add in 3 units of 10 Reivers to bump those numbers up to 80 Phobos Marines, making it into 16 5 model squads.
The remaining 20 bodies consisted of Suppressors, Eliminators, and Invictors in no real order. Swapping one squad out for an Invictor(or a trio of them) wasn't hard to puzzle out, numerically, and since the Suppressors and Eliminators were both fluffed as the "fire support" guys of the Vanguard Company? it stays fluffy!
I can't do that set up now without running huge blobs of supposed independently operating specialist infiltration/terror troops.
I'm not going to lie it wasn't clear what you were talking about at first reading, you didn't specify you only ever field them in 5's and nobody mentioned troops at any point. If you want to recreate the vanguard company, they're organised in squads of 10.....
H.B.M.C. wrote: You shouldn't be banning units for these formations. That's a backwards way of doing it (and shows a lack of imagination and flexibility). You should instead reward "correct" choices.
Exactly, the vanguard detachment being ideal for non-Phobos doesn't mean the whole detachment system is bad, just that this specific one was poorly designed.
Dawnbringer wrote: I think with something like the Vanguard detachment, the -1 to hit shouldn't apply to the entire army, but rather a subset.
Then we're back to the things people complained about in 9th (and even 8th), where certain models were only worth taking in certain sub-factions because those units got specific free boosts in specific factions.
Keeping them army-wide is a far better and simpler solution.
Or admech for current edition
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dawnbringer wrote: That's alot hanging on people caring about +1 OC and being able to take 6 of something. I can't see anyone taking six of any phobos unit just like I doubt people are taking six tac or intercessor squads. Might as well just not bother with detachments at all if that's all they are going to do. Rule of three with there being so many variations of units means very unlikely to hit the max unless something is a poorly balanced 'must take'. Hell, there are three varieties of phobos squads, you could take six jump pack squads (reg + van vets) etc.
That said, I do think battle line should change with detachments, I'm surprised it doesn't.
Its still a way to reward fluffy lists (or flanderised ones)
H.B.M.C. wrote: What are my Flamer and Eviscerator Assault Mariners going to proxy as then?
We got flamers in 4th and eviscerators in 6th? So just hold on until 14th and 16th edition for assault intercessors to get them. Will be here before you know it.
I cut plasma pistol arms off of AMs to give them flamers. Full circle I guess.
Yes it sucks.
We had Flamers (and the other Special Weapons) in 2nd. Then we briefly had the Meltas and Plasmas again in the 10th Index.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What are my Flamer and Eviscerator Assault Mariners going to proxy as then?
We got flamers in 4th and eviscerators in 6th? So just hold on until 14th and 16th edition for assault intercessors to get them. Will be here before you know it.
I cut plasma pistol arms off of AMs to give them flamers. Full circle I guess.
Yes it sucks.
We had Flamers (and the other Special Weapons) in 2nd. Then we briefly had the Meltas and Plasmas again in the 10th Index.
Now we just have ugly Assault Intercessors.
2nd was a wild frontier of options. I tend not to think about it when thinking about what we could do. When 3rd purged most of the options, what we had left set the baseline for the next couple of decades.
2nd was a wild frontier of options. I tend not to think about it when thinking about what we could do. When 3rd purged most of the options, what we had left set the baseline for the next couple of decades.
I disagree, I once painted up a space marine with a virus grenade over 25 years ago and I'm never going to forgive GW until it's a non-legend option again.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What are my Flamer and Eviscerator Assault Mariners going to proxy as then?
We got flamers in 4th and eviscerators in 6th? So just hold on until 14th and 16th edition for assault intercessors to get them. Will be here before you know it.
I cut plasma pistol arms off of AMs to give them flamers. Full circle I guess.
Yes it sucks.
We had Flamers (and the other Special Weapons) in 2nd. Then we briefly had the Meltas and Plasmas again in the 10th Index.
Now we just have ugly Assault Intercessors.
2nd was a wild frontier of options. I tend not to think about it when thinking about what we could do. When 3rd purged most of the options, what we had left set the baseline for the next couple of decades.
I'm going to push back and say that 3rd ed was the outlier, especially in the case for the Assault Marines. It's the only past edition where they couldn't get Flamers. Also, 3rd ed opened up quite a bit as it went on, in terms of options. 3rd ed saw an army of Kroot, Speed Freaks, Chaos 3.5, Imperial Guard Doctrines and the glorious Vehicle Design Rules.
Dawnbringer wrote: That's alot hanging on people caring about +1 OC and being able to take 6 of something. I can't see anyone taking six of any phobos unit just like I doubt people are taking six tac or intercessor squads.
Hi, I'm that anyone! Unless I've missed something, Combat Squads are gone. That makes a huge difference when going from 10s splitting into 5s and straight taking 5s.
It means you're going from the wildly excessive 90 models made up of Reivers, Infiltrators and Incursors for Ro3(3*10 three times) to 45 models. For someone wanting to recreate the Vanguard Company, this is a huge change.
Dawnbringer wrote: That's alot hanging on people caring about +1 OC and being able to take 6 of something. I can't see anyone taking six of any phobos unit just like I doubt people are taking six tac or intercessor squads.
Hi, I'm that anyone! Unless I've missed something, Combat Squads are gone. That makes a huge difference when going from 10s splitting into 5s and straight taking 5s.
It means you're going from the wildly excessive 90 models made up of Reivers, Infiltrators and Incursors for Ro3(3*10 three times) to 45 models. For someone wanting to recreate the Vanguard Company, this is a huge change.
Good news, Combat Squads is back.
For one unit. And it replaced another useful ability, which was Fall Back And Shoot. Why not gice Combat Squads as just a general rule? Who knows.
Yeah. The Redemptor goes down and keeps it's -1 Damage.
*cries in Tyrannofex*
Dawnbringer wrote: I disagree, I once painted up a space marine with a virus grenade over 25 years ago and I'm never going to forgive GW until it's a non-legend option again.
Sure. Be disingenuous. Really helps your position.
Further confirmation, most likely this will be on WarCom tomorrow
God, what an abysmal set of takes on the way 40k is being run.
Quick thought- is a 5-man Devastator squad the only remaining thing that you can put in a Razorback?
Tactical Squads can Combat Squad now, so you can run them in Razorbacks if you like, which is not a small thing . . . But it's a poor consolation considering everything else going on.
Can you? Battle Sister Squads have that whole three-sides-of-a-square rule to allow them to combat squad and ride in Immolators. Do Tac Squads and Razorbacks have the same?
Prometheum5 wrote: Can you? Battle Sister Squads have that whole three-sides-of-a-square rule to allow them to combat squad and ride in Immolators. Do Tac Squads and Razorbacks have the same?
No, Tactical Squads just regained the ability to Combat Squad. No transport required.
Right, so can you put a Tactical Combat Squad in a Razorback? Based on how the Sisters rule is worded I suppose it depends on the rule structure. If you split the squad at deployment can you still assign the split to a transport?
Prometheum5 wrote: Right, so can you put a Tactical Combat Squad in a Razorback? Based on how the Sisters rule is worded I suppose it depends on the rule structure. If you split the squad at deployment can you still assign the split to a transport?
I don't recall the exact wording (or even if I've seen it), but I believe you would elect to Combat Squad at the beginning of the Declare Reserves and Transports pre-battle step, and could then declare one of the Combat Squads to go into the Razorback.
Prometheum5 wrote: Can you? Battle Sister Squads have that whole three-sides-of-a-square rule to allow them to combat squad and ride in Immolators. Do Tac Squads and Razorbacks have the same?
Tactical Marines have the Combat Squad rule to allow you to split them up, regardless of whether or not you put them in a transport. The Razorback doesn't care either way. I personally would rather put Devastators in a Razorback to give them effectively Twin-linked on their guns (assuming you don't totally whiff with the Razorback's guns, that is).
Edit: Multiple ninja'd, but my other point stands.
I mean we had what? 6 years to prepare for this change of no more firstborn?
Ath this rate, only first born unit i think will remain is centurions and terminators.
I sold everything that went to legends, because they where never that good in the first place to be honest. like, who is really mising the landspeeder storm or hunter/stalker?
hotsauceman1 wrote: I mean we had what? 6 years to prepare for this change of no more firstborn?
Ath this rate, only first born unit i think will remain is centurions and terminators.
I sold everything that went to legends, because they where never that good in the first place to be honest. like, who is really mising the landspeeder storm or hunter/stalker?
I'll give you Hunter/Stalker, but I'm sure anyone who ran a scout company is missing the Landspeeder Storm.
I see Goonhammer are still on the "Replaces the Primaris entry..." crap from their review.
No, they're still the Primaris entry. All they did was change the name.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I mean we had what? 6 years to prepare for this change of no more firstborn?
And? GW could have just as easily not removed tons of options. It's fine to replace a character with a Primaris version, but let him keep his weapon options. Don't suddenly invalidate the options just because the miniature is changing.
And there are non-Primaris things that have been gutted as well, like the Terminator Captain. Hell, even recent changes (Termy Chaplain Combi-Weapons) are going away.
And how does one prepare for losing all their Land Speeders and bikers overnight? If Outriders had been given actual fething options in the new Codex (and a proper non-EZbuild kit to go with it), then the loss of regular bikers mightn't be so harsh. They made a detachment that has Enhancements only for mounted characters... and there's one mounted character in the book (Biker Chaplain). Couldn't have kept the Biker Captain around for a little bit more?
"We had time to prepare!" is a cop-out.
I really do hope that that Legends document gets some hefty additions... (and even then that's only a half measure)
In my opinion, 10th is a bit crap really. The new marines are hit and miss and don’t have the cool flavor of the old marines. It’s sad that we’ve lost all these older models to the ATV, Hammerfall bunker, desolators, inceptors, brutalis dread, repulsors, etc. just hideous additions to the range.
Then you have the bizarre rule changes for vanvets, Captain options, combi weapons. It really is the crap age of 40K.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I mean we had what? 6 years to prepare for this change of no more firstborn?
Ath this rate, only first born unit i think will remain is centurions and terminators.
I sold everything that went to legends, because they where never that good in the first place to be honest. like, who is really mising the landspeeder storm or hunter/stalker?
I'll give you Hunter/Stalker, but I'm sure anyone who ran a scout company is missing the Landspeeder Storm.
Yeah, if you have Scouts in the codex, why wouldn't you want a Scout transport? I mean, obviously because of the real/Primaris Marine split and the former getting phased out, but functionally? The Land Speeder Storm has a worthwhile role. Is that role filled equally well by the floating Rhino replacement whose name escapes me?
I'm quite font of the thing myself. My Scout Squad in a Land Speeder Storm once won me and my buddy a team tournament. Good times.
RazorEdge wrote: Why did the retconned the heritage on some Chapters?
Mentors (Ultramarines) and Exorcists (Imperial Fists) are now "Unknown foundings".
I know for a fact that the Exorcists became Imperial Fists founding last edition in White Dwarf, and it was one of the most unpopular changes to their lore in recent memory.
They were always rumoured to have a strange founding, with some speculating that they were the only example of Grey Knight successors.
Changes get made from time to time.
The Fire Lords were Imperial Fists Successors for years but 9th(?) saw them changed to Unknown when their Geneseed was analysed and found not to be of VIIth Legion lineage.
I'm sure Lexicanum will be updated in a few days and we can find out why the change was made.
Anyone getting bent out of shape over a Founder change needs to have a little lie down.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I see Goonhammer are still on the "Replaces the Primaris entry..." crap from their review.
No, they're still the Primaris entry. All they did was change the name.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I mean we had what? 6 years to prepare for this change of no more firstborn?
And? GW could have just as easily not removed tons of options. It's fine to replace a character with a Primaris version, but let him keep his weapon options. Don't suddenly invalidate the options just because the miniature is changing.
And there are non-Primaris things that have been gutted as well, like the Terminator Captain. Hell, even recent changes (Termy Chaplain Combi-Weapons) are going away.
And how does one prepare for losing all their Land Speeders and bikers overnight? If Outriders had been given actual fething options in the new Codex (and a proper non-EZbuild kit to go with it), then the loss of regular bikers mightn't be so harsh. They made a detachment that has Enhancements only for mounted characters... and there's one mounted character in the book (Biker Chaplain). Couldn't have kept the Biker Captain around for a little bit more?
"We had time to prepare!" is a cop-out.
I really do hope that that Legends document gets some hefty additions... (and even then that's only a half measure)
The writing on the wall ha been their once models started getting upgraded and better versions in the book.
And we knew for two months they where going to be phased out once tgey announced they where no longer selling them.
This should be surprising
Gert wrote: Changes get made from time to time. The Fire Lords were Imperial Fists Successors for years but 9th(?) saw them changed to Unknown when their Geneseed was analysed and found not to be of VIIth Legion lineage. I'm sure Lexicanum will be updated in a few days and we can find out why the change was made..
This is actually explained in the ending to Siege of Cthonia.
Spoiler:
The Imperial Fists take in the Thousand Sons 5th Fellowship and other Loyalists as full fledged members, armor color, emblem and all.
Emperor forbid people care about the game's background.
Please do tell me what exactly has changed in the character and histories of the Mentor Chapter now that they aren't officially Ultramarines Successors which was only recently confirmed in Spear of the Emperor BTW.
I mean if people really cared about the background they should be complaining about how all the Chapters are supposed to be Legions or that there aren't half-Eldar Ultramarine Librarians.
People who endlessly complain about minor retcons and updates don't care about the background they care about complaining.
I still wanna be salty of Sharding The Deceiver. They were my favorite character who was responsible for So Much of what happened in the setting, and so much of it got retconned out.
Emperor forbid people care about the game's background.
I mean if people really cared about the background they should be screeching about how all the Chapters are supposed to be Legions or that there aren't half-Eldar Ultramarine Librarians.
Poor argument. It's well understood that RT, especially early RT, was a time of exploration and experimentation. The background became more cohesive in the years following, especially when it comes to Space Marines.
The whole half-Eldar librarian thing we can take a pass on because it was mentioned once in that early experimental phase, and then never referred to again.
No idea where your "Legions" thing is coming from, since Space Marines are organized into Chapters in the OG RT book itself.
If someone asked this already, I apologise, but: The new Terminators. Do existing pads (Deathwatch Pads, Deathwing, etc.) work with them? Or are the new ones too big for the old stuff?
Also you say that the connection points on the Jump Pack Intercessors is flat. Could I take a flat-connecting, say, power axe from and older Marine kit and put it there without it looking out of place?
Also an FAQ for 'Nids that isn't worth the time it took to type this sentence.
I feel drunk. Some of those changes are wild, especially since 1.3 wasn't that old.
Does the basic Libby no longer give a 4++ to a unit for simply existing? Because that dropped from 100 to 65. (edit: or I was looking at the wrong entry and/or combined an enhancement with the base cost in my notes yesterday)
Most of the characters dropped at least 15 points.
I was toying with a list yesterday (based mostly on leviathan, new releases and a few other units), and this freed up 180 points. A full 10 man squad and change.
Also an FAQ for 'Nids that isn't worth the time it took to type this sentence.
I feel drunk. Some of those changes are wild, especially since 1.3 wasn't that old.
Does the basic Libby no longer give a 4++ to a unit for simply existing? Because that dropped from 100 to 65. (edit: or I was looking at the wrong entry and/or combined an enhancement with the base cost in my notes yesterday)
Most of the characters dropped at least 15 points.
I was toying with a list yesterday (based mostly on leviathan, new releases and a few other units), and this freed up 180 points. A full 10 man squad and change.
You'd think they'd just released Space Marines and were trying to sell minis or something.
I bet version 1.5 is already made, ready to nerf the SM back to it's old points.
Also an FAQ for 'Nids that isn't worth the time it took to type this sentence.
I feel drunk. Some of those changes are wild, especially since 1.3 wasn't that old.
Does the basic Libby no longer give a 4++ to a unit for simply existing? Because that dropped from 100 to 65. (edit: or I was looking at the wrong entry and/or combined an enhancement with the base cost in my notes yesterday)
Most of the characters dropped at least 15 points.
I was toying with a list yesterday (based mostly on leviathan, new releases and a few other units), and this freed up 180 points. A full 10 man squad and change.
You'd think they'd just released Space Marines and were trying to sell minis or something.
I bet version 1.5 is already made, ready to nerf the SM back to it's old points.
Given they gutted OoM, I imagine these point cuts might not do the trick in some places.
5 Jump Pack Assault Intercessors w/2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist, 3 Heavy Bolt Pistols and 4 Astartes Chainswords = 85 Points
I wonder if one of these is last season's kit...
Any reason other than being disingenuous one would leave off the assault intercessor sergeants plasma pistol and powerfist? So difference in equipment is just one plasma pistol. Also, now with OoM is nerfed, assuming Assault Intercessors keep full wound rerolls in range of objective has more use. Not saying 5pts isn't too small of a difference for the added mobility, but it's not as bad as a comparison as it is being made out to be.
And his point was that you were artificially increasing the difference between the units in a disingenuous way. There is plenty of head scratching to be done over the 5 point difference between Assault Intercessors and Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs without leaving the options off on squad while maxing on the other. That is an old argument that has already been beaten to death a few hundred times since 10th launched.
alextroy wrote: And his point was that you were artificially increasing the difference between the units in a disingenuous way.
And he (and you!) would be wrong. There was nothing 'artificial' about what I said, and it wasn't disingenuous. I know perfectly well that regular Assault Intercessors can have additional weaponry. The examples I used were there to highlight the disparity and (continued) failures of the 'points' system, vis a vis the new Assault Intercessors. I could have just as easily used naked Jump Pack Assault Intercessors as the first example and the point would still stand.
And you would still be beating the dead horse of "free upgrades". That ship a sailed, gotten to its destination, returned, and headed out a second time
5 Jump Pack Assault Intercessors w/2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist, 3 Heavy Bolt Pistols and 4 Astartes Chainswords = 85 Points
I wonder if one of these is last season's kit...
Any reason other than being disingenuous one would leave off the assault intercessor sergeants plasma pistol and powerfist? So difference in equipment is just one plasma pistol. Also, now with OoM is nerfed, assuming Assault Intercessors keep full wound rerolls in range of objective has more use. Not saying 5pts isn't too small of a difference for the added mobility, but it's not as bad as a comparison as it is being made out to be.
So in fact you agree with the point being made that the new unit is too cheap relative to the old unit.
Prometheum5 wrote: Apparently the app has already been updated to lock out the SM content today.
Mine is still working, been using it this morning.
With the Nids the update didn't push to everyone at the same time, but if you check your app store you may have a pending update that will change it.
I checked, nothing pending. But as you say, might be a staggered rollout. All clear (for now) for my iPad.
If GW is locking content before the official release, that’s a jerk move. Admittedly, it’s only a couple days. But still not right.
Ok, my app wanted to update this morning, description of changes includes the ability to unlock the new SM stuff and Nid FAQ. I’m not going to upgrade until I have book in hand.
I guess when you have global distribution it’s hard to line up start times for things like this. You want people to be able to unlock once they get the book, but locking early for people who haven’t had a chance yet generates bad feels.
