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But then you hit a design problem in that the units are all compared to each other and balancing and style becomes harder. How to make a different style army, that isn't more powerful than regular, if all you can do is add things? Balance and theme is easier when you can restrict units to work with the new ones.
Because youre not just adding stuff. you're picking from one thing to add.
It's not :
Base + A + B + C
It's :
Base + A
or
Base + B
or
Base + C
so if you make ABC have a similar impact, you'll achieve relative balance. The real problem is that GW decided to make it
(Base+noncompliant) + A/B/C.
You're getting hung up on the noncompliant, but Guilliman is as impactful as any of them.
I find the idea of forcing people to play flanderised army lists if they want to use their preferred army much worse than having swappable detachment rules.
Funny, I feel that these detachments are a much, much bigger example of flanderising than anything else. It waters things that used to be Chapter/Primarch specific down to just being "and now everyone can do it!".
This isn't like the Tyranids, where the elements of those detachments might be found universally. No matter the Hive Fleet, it's a good chance they had Vanguard Swarms, Crusher Stampedes, etc.
The Marines? Not so much.
Yeah, people get hung out on the names of the detachments too much, sure its called a "vanguard" detachment but its not a "vanguard company", its just a detachment that likes to play outside its deployment.
Spoiler:
It's a "Vanguard Spearhead". The Vanguard Company is a specific organization within the Codex Compliant Chapters, and it happens to be the one that is the most restrictive across all of the Codex Chapters.
What exactly should I be focused on then? The description and the actual name point towards it being stealthy and full of Phobos. It doesn't suggest being full of Gravis, Dreadnoughts, and tanks. I happen to know the lore behind the Phobos stuff, and the 10th Company having specific elements is entirely a thing that you should focus upon.
You can try to pretend this is watering things down or whatever, but the simple fact is these detachments are boring. They're exactly the issue that cropped up with the Build Your Own Successor Chapters and the Codex Supplements we had for the other Founding Chapters:
There's no actual trade-offs. It will always be the same cookie-cutter crap no matter what, based upon some nebulous "meta" that a good chunk of people will never actually have exposure to in a serious manner yet the calls for balance and nerfing will always ruin everyone else's fun in friendly settings.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Could someone summarise for me what old marine units have been removed from the codex? Not fussed about wargear options.
1. First Born Captain.
2. First Born Captain w/Jump Pack.
3. First Born Captain w/Bike.
4. First Born Lieutenant.
5. First Born Librarian.
6. First Born Chaplain.
7. First Born Techmarine.
8. Astartes Servitors.
9. First Born Librarian w/Jump Pack.
10. Scout Sniper Squad.
11. Primaris Company Champion.
12. First Born Command Squad.
13. Vanguard Vet Squad.
14. Relic Terminator Squad.
15. Contemptor Dreadnought.
16. Ironclad Dreadnought.
17. First Born Assault Squad.
18. First Born Assault Squad w/Jump Packs.
19. Bike Squad.
20. Scout Bike Squad.
21. Attack Bike Squad.
22. Land Speeder.
23. Land Speeder Tornado.
24. Land Speeder Typhoon.
25. Thunderfire Cannon.
26. Hunter.
27. Stalker.
28. Land Speeder Storm.
I mean they also removed the "primaris" versions of all of those characters if we're playing technicalities. It's just "captain with jump pack" without referencing which generation of marine it is unless you want to get hung up on the tacticus keyword.
Even if you ignore the firstborn/primaris divide, and the wargear options lost, that’s still a lot of classic stuff for the dusty back of the legends shelf.
You might be able to counts-as a chunk of it, but by no means all of it.
Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
A Rhino counting as an Impulsor without upgrades is another possibility, if you build the Rhino with dual storm bolters (which 9th edition and earlier used to allow) and only need to carry at most 6 models.
The basic stats are very similar, aside for one more wound on the Impulsor and the Rhino's self-repair rule. The Impulsor gets a larger firing deck, but may not make a big difference in many cases, depending on what you put in it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/03 18:31:27
I did have the thought of just saying 'eff it and using Rhinos as Impulsors, but there's some decent dimensional differences and I think proxying units that also still exist in the rules is just confusing for other players.
Prometheum5 wrote: I did have the thought of just saying 'eff it and using Rhinos as Impulsors, but there's some decent dimensional differences and I think proxying units that also still exist in the rules is just confusing for other players.
I see, I have not looked closely at the two models next to each other, so I had not noticed the size differences.
I also often find proxies confusing if there are significant differences. In cases like this where the are minimal rules differences though, I suppose one way around it is to just ignore those Impulsor rules that the Rhino does not have - so pretend it has 10 wounds instead of 11, and only allow 2 models to shoot out. That way there is no rules advantage for your opponent to be confused over, aside from allowing Primaris transport....although I can the difference in dimensions might be cause for disagreement with some opponents.
I'm considering trying that in friendly games if I still want my Sternguard to ride in a Rhino (at most 6 at a time).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/03 20:13:42
Nevelon wrote: Even if you ignore the firstborn/primaris divide, and the wargear options lost, that’s still a lot of classic stuff for the dusty back of the legends shelf.
You might be able to counts-as a chunk of it, but by no means all of it.
I've basically been forced to play CSM now, since nearly 3/4ths of my army is legends or otherwise illegal.
Spoiler:
As of now, only my tactical squads, Chapter-Master, and devestator squads are still usable without legends. (Not pictured is a land-raider and second Libby) I had two company-vet squads, old-school command squad, 3 lieutenants, a jump-pack chaplain, assault marines, and a land speeder.
And people ask me why I hate it whenever a new Primaris unit is announced.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/10/03 20:19:21
Nevelon wrote: Even if you ignore the firstborn/primaris divide, and the wargear options lost, that’s still a lot of classic stuff for the dusty back of the legends shelf.
You might be able to counts-as a chunk of it, but by no means all of it.
I've basically been forced to play CSM now, since nearly 3/4ths of my army is legends or otherwise illegal.
Spoiler:
As of now, only my tactical squads, Chapter-Master, and devestator squads are still usable without legends. (Not pictured is a land-raider and second Libby) I had two company-vet squads, old-school command squad, 3 lieutenants, a jump-pack chaplain, assault marines, and a land speeder.
And people ask me why I hate it whenever a new Primaris unit is announced.
I’m going to wait until I have book in hand before I do a true reckoning.
Some stuff is close enough if we are ignoring the firstborn/primaris divide. I’ve got 20 assault marines. They can take the field as assault intercessors w/ JPs. The guys with flamers will need to sit things out, but I think only one of the 4 special weapon guys has his flamer glued on.
Sad to see the ironclad dread go away. I’ve got spare arms to swap, so even in death he can serve. Just a little longer range and less choppy then before.
Speeders and TFC are just gone. I’ve always loved my speeders, and the new ones do not fill the same role. They always hung out at “effective enough to do some damage, but not so bad they float to the top of the targeting queue” The new ones are full up glass hammers. Fast, hard hitting, and hard to hide. But still fragile.
Could I counts-as all my bikes (scouts or otherwise) as outriders? Maybe. But their job was fast application of special weapons (or tool box of tricks on the scouts) so completely different battlefield role.
Sniper scouts will get doled out into other squads. Will not need the 10 I have (plus Talion) I’m no stranger to having more minis then I could use though. I’ve got more captains than a chapter has companies (buy quite a few) and more tac squads then sense.
Hunter could take the field as a Vindi. Rhino chassis with one big gun? Sure.
I play 100% painted and as close to WYSWYG as I can manage. This is a brutal edition change. I’m not happy.
But I still enjoy the game, still love painting models (the new ones mostly look awesome). Just sad for all the legacy stuff that’s being quietly sunsetted out of the main book. And I do recognize that the SM range was a bloated mess. This isn’t how I’d have fixed it, but I wasn’t a fan of the whole primaris rollout to start.
Dudeface wrote: I mean they also removed the "primaris" versions of all of those characters if we're playing technicalities.
No they didn't.
Pretty sure the contents page (best pic I had to hand) very clearly just says "captain" or "Lieutenant".
HBMC is referring to their Keywords and option restrictions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/03 21:05:12
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Prometheum5 wrote: Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
There's a carve out that allows non-tacticus units being led by a tacticus leader to ride in rhinos.
So to answer your question directly, nothing really changed for you unless it's a unit that completely hit Legends. Still gotta stick with Firstborn units, but you definitely did lose your Assault squad on foot and Vanguard veteran squads on foot, which I assume only like three collectors ever actually had.
Prometheum5 wrote: Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
There's a carve out that allows non-tacticus units being led by a tacticus leader to ride in rhinos.
So to answer your question directly, nothing really changed for you unless it's a unit that completely hit Legends. Still gotta stick with Firstborn units, but you definitely did lose your Assault squad on foot and Vanguard veteran squads on foot, which I assume only like three collectors ever actually had.
I magnetized the backpacks for 10 of my AMs and my VVs. There were some very niche uses for them. In 5th you could swap the JPs from the AM for a free drop pod. Helped boost your pod count for maximal 1st turn drop, and gave a place for characters like Cassius to hang out.
I’ve had pack-less VVs charge down the assault ramp of a LR before. For editions where there was a 10 cargo capacity it was easier to fit characters in their squad than termis.
For general use? JPs were almost always the way to go. But I’ve fielded them over the years without to some good effect. Although honestly, not particularly sad to see the option go away.
Dudeface wrote: Pretty sure the contents page (best pic I had to hand) very clearly just says "captain" or "Lieutenant".
The First Born units, and their options, are gone. The Primaris units, and their limited set builds, are still there. All that they lost is the word 'Primaris'.
I think you knew this is what I meant...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/03 21:45:56
I think an Assault Squad on foot could proxy for Assault Intercessors on foot in much the same way that a Jump Pack Assault Squad could proxy for Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs, aside from the lack of extra plasma pistols for the non-Jump Assault Intercessors.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What are my Flamer and Eviscerator Assault Mariners going to proxy as then?
We got flamers in 4th and eviscerators in 6th? So just hold on until 14th and 16th edition for assault intercessors to get them. Will be here before you know it.
I cut plasma pistol arms off of AMs to give them flamers. Full circle I guess.
Prometheum5 wrote: Leaving the Rhino family in while removing most of the things that can interact with or ride in those chassis seems totally bizarre to me. With the whole stupid Tacticus keywording, what am I supposed to do if I was running a fully mechanized army in Rhinos, even with the counts-as-ing of units?
There's a carve out that allows non-tacticus units being led by a tacticus leader to ride in rhinos.
So to answer your question directly, nothing really changed for you unless it's a unit that completely hit Legends. Still gotta stick with Firstborn units, but you definitely did lose your Assault squad on foot and Vanguard veteran squads on foot, which I assume only like three collectors ever actually had.
I actually had some on-foot vanguard vets in the works to give me some flexibility in delivery method, as 10 vanguard-vets on foot in a rhino/land raider, is cheaper than the alternatives and would allow me to have a budget-option if I wanted it.
I have two on-foot Assault Marine squads and a full unit of on-foot Vanguard Marines (made up of original metal Veterans, including some very rare ones).
I really hope that Legends document gets updated Saturday week...
H.B.M.C. wrote: I have two on-foot Assault Marine squads and a full unit of on-foot Vanguard Marines (made up of original metal Veterans, including some very rare ones).
I really hope that Legends document gets updated Saturday week...
Decent legends support will make me feel a lot better about this whole thing. Time will tell.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I have two on-foot Assault Marine squads and a full unit of on-foot Vanguard Marines (made up of original metal Veterans, including some very rare ones).
I really hope that Legends document gets updated Saturday week...
Decent legends support will make me feel a lot better about this whole thing. Time will tell.
Same, I'd at least have one more edition with my army, and by extention, a whole edition to make firstborn version of Primaris units. I've already got a judiciar and Infernus marines made, If I can limp along (along with playing CSM with the dead stuff) and I'll be able to deal with it.
I'm not much of a 40k player, mainly because I don't hobby fast enough to hit the moving target that is the play environment with finished armies. I've got an entire 'vintage' Blood Angels 3rd Company and 'modern' 2nd Company in various states, with full motor pools and HQ structures that I always figured would be my two go-to sources of models to make armies if I really got into playing. I also enjoy the Primaris models and have happily been building dedicated Primaris forces in other SM chapters, but it doesn't feel awesome to have something like 20 years of collecting in my BA stuff become mostly unusable outside of awkward semi-proxying that'll never hold up to the limited, mostly tournament-setting play opportunities in my local community.
Hell, I didn't even get to field the 1000pt Primaris Ultramarines force I was building out of the three modern starterbox forces yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/04 01:07:24
Of the units that got completely squatted in the new codex, I own:
10 on-foot Assault Marines (2 squads of 5 with 2 flamers in each)
5 Jump Assault Marines (one has flamer)
Various former Command Squad stuff including two Apothecaries, a Company Champion, two Ancients, and other veterans that might be usable as Sternguard or something
2 Land Speeder Tornados
3 Land Speeder Typhoons
2 Assault Cannon Razorbacks
4 Attack Bikes (including one that is still NIB)
20-odd Ravenwing Bikers
A kitbashed Jump Pack Librarian
At least one or two Captains with loadouts that are now illegal
12 Sniper Scouts
Possibly some Tactical/Devastator Sergeants with illegal loadouts (not sure what is or is not legal on those currently)
Maybe more that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but this is a big gut punch to my longtime Dark Angels collection. The writing's been on the wall since the start of 8th, but now it's finally happening and I'm trying to decide what to do with these models. I'm also acutely aware that the same fate is likely going to befall my Tacticals and Devastators once 11th comes in three years' time (probably). I'm thinking very strongly of selling them to my FLGS (they'll end up in the used model bins) for store credit to buy some new models with. Or maybe I should just box them up and save them, although they don't have any real sentimental value to me as a lot of them are not even painted (the Assault guys and the Razorbacks in particular I only bought to run that one busted formation in 7th).
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 21 | Current main painting project: Warhammer 40k Leviathan set
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
ZergSmasher wrote: Of the units that got completely squatted in the new codex, I own:
10 on-foot Assault Marines (2 squads of 5 with 2 flamers in each)
5 Jump Assault Marines (one has flamer)
Various former Command Squad stuff including two Apothecaries, a Company Champion, two Ancients, and other veterans that might be usable as Sternguard or something
2 Land Speeder Tornados
3 Land Speeder Typhoons
2 Assault Cannon Razorbacks
4 Attack Bikes (including one that is still NIB)
20-odd Ravenwing Bikers
A kitbashed Jump Pack Librarian
At least one or two Captains with loadouts that are now illegal
12 Sniper Scouts
Possibly some Tactical/Devastator Sergeants with illegal loadouts (not sure what is or is not legal on those currently)
Maybe more that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but this is a big gut punch to my longtime Dark Angels collection. The writing's been on the wall since the start of 8th, but now it's finally happening and I'm trying to decide what to do with these models. I'm also acutely aware that the same fate is likely going to befall my Tacticals and Devastators once 11th comes in three years' time (probably). I'm thinking very strongly of selling them to my FLGS (they'll end up in the used model bins) for store credit to buy some new models with. Or maybe I should just box them up and save them, although they don't have any real sentimental value to me as a lot of them are not even painted (the Assault guys and the Razorbacks in particular I only bought to run that one busted formation in 7th).
I have a fully painted Ultramarines army that dates back to 5th Edition - it went to tournaments and appeared in a long-lost issue of WD. It's now almost entirely 'illegal', in part because the Marines aren't on 32mm bases. It's the fate of virtually anything you build now for this hobby. I'm keeping these models because they are still attractive to look at and they do hold sentimental value. I think the increasing churn rate is a disincentive to spending that much time and effort on models. Hopefully once the whole Marine range is Primaris sized the models will have some longevity.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Dudeface wrote: Pretty sure the contents page (best pic I had to hand) very clearly just says "captain" or "Lieutenant".
The First Born units, and their options, are gone. The Primaris units, and their limited set builds, are still there. All that they lost is the word 'Primaris'.
I think you knew this is what I meant...
No I didn't and others may not. Stating that "first both captains" have been retired to legends if you have an old multi-part marine captain with power sword and plasma pistol is factually incorrect. You can happily still field that captain mini entirely game legal. The only difference is it has the tacticus keyword to represent it's supposed to be in mk10 armour.
Yes some wargear options have gone, but that's not the same statement as "you cannot use this model as it doesn't exist".
make primaris biggerist bigger space marines to replace the others and then change rules to force people to buy the new ones, they sell well.
4D chess move, bring back ultra classic super duper space marine MK7 and see the entire space marine range to marine players again, change the rules to force this to happen. They sell well.
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1300 | Tyranids: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
