warpcrafter wrote:So, they just had to get rid of WON and EW for Tyranids. This has triggered by pessimism gene again. These are the things that in my mind made them a distinct army. Between that and tripling the cost of Carnifexes, it seems that the monkeys have been attacking the typewriters again. I just might go Space Wolves after all.

What happened to WoN for free on all Gaunts?

RustyKnight wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:So, they just had to get rid of WON and EW for Tyranids. This has triggered by pessimism gene again. These are the things that in my mind made them a distinct army. Between that and tripling the cost of Carnifexes, it seems that the monkeys have been attacking the typewriters again. I just might go Space Wolves after all.

What happened to WoN for free on all Gaunts?

According to everything that has not been debunked with authority, WON is now a thing of the past. Space Wolves are looking better all the time.

Somehow I fail to see why you'd make a Space Marine army simply because a bunch of completely unreliable internet rumours stopped pleasing you. What's so amazing about Space Wolves? Nearly everything in that Codex could've been put on two pages of Codex: Space Marines. Granted, my DIY Space Marines every now and then like use the Codex for the Grey Hunters and the Rune Priest, but please enlighten me what is so fantastic in these guys?

No, wait, I get it now. You give up on Tyranids untill some internet wiz kid discovers an army list that bulldozes all competition at tournaments, and then Tyranids are cool again, and then you've always loved Tyranids.

Therion wrote:Somehow I fail to see why you'd make a Space Marine army simply because a bunch of completely unreliable internet rumours stopped pleasing you. What's so amazing about Space Wolves? Nearly everything in that Codex could've been put on two pages of Codex: Space Marines. Granted, my DIY Space Marines every now and then like use the Codex for the Grey Hunters and the Rune Priest, but please enlighten me what is so fantastic in these guys?

No, wait, I get it now. You give up on Tyranids untill some internet wiz kid discovers an army list that bulldozes all competition at tournaments, and then Tyranids are cool again, and then you've always loved Tyranids.

Granted, I am sort of a flake, and that seems to annoy you. It has nothing to do with some killer internet list, because I am openly disdainful of the cult of internet list-building. I just want the army to have its own feel, and some relationship, however slight with the fluff. THAT is what killed my interest in the Tyranids. I am considering making a Space Wolves army because it actually feels like it is described in the fluff. Anyway, I am going to purchase the Tyranids Codex when it comes out, and read it thoroughly before commiting my tiny hobby budget, so PRBPRBPRBBBTTT!!!

Me?

I've always hated Tyranids.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

I hate them because they're mean and gribbly.

i love them, i think they are awesome and i can't wait for the codex.

warpcrafter wrote:I never thought I would see the day. I can barely tell the difference between the level of knee-jerking and hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing between Dakka and Warseer. I'm tempted to just boycott the fething internet.

warpcrafter wrote:According to everything that has not been debunked with authority, WON is now a thing of the past. Space Wolves are looking better all the time.

wyomingfox wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:I never thought I would see the day. I can barely tell the difference between the level of knee-jerking and hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing between Dakka and Warseer. I'm tempted to just boycott the fething internet.

warpcrafter wrote:According to everything that has not been debunked with authority, WON is now a thing of the past. Space Wolves are looking better all the time.

I can see the reasons for the shooty fex to nearly double...113pts for what it could do was a wee bit "cheap".

It's still possible obviously for people to use the 3 dakkafexes. 3 of them in a brood is 36 shots rerolling misses. Sure that's overkill against a lot of stuff but then don't take 3 in a brood. Take 3 broods of 1 and don't take the Trygon or Mawloc.

As was mentioned earlier GW has taken the pendulum 1/2 a swing (or to some knee jerkist a full 720) to bring cc back into viability without obsoleting certain builds. Sure it might seem horrible to have to pay 600+ pts for 3 super shooty fexes but 339 for what amounted to the equivalent of 2 heavy bolter devastator squads for less than the cost with models who could shrug off many more times the firepower of said devastators was criminally cheap.

Obviously dakkafex is still viable, it's just no longer a no-brainer choice, nor do I think Trygons or Mawlocs or Terranofexes no-brainer choices either.

Alpharius wrote:Me?

I've always hated Tyranids.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

hmmm. . .sounds familiar. . .

I'm a bit upset about some of these rumors, sure, but not JUST because I have to tear the arms off of my gunfexes to use them again. The main reason I'm upset is that we are so used to GW swinging the pendulum and outlawing everything people have been doing for years, because it was effective, that the community seems to not only expect but DESIRE this sort of blatant contempt for the game in the face of profit as justified.

I've always liked the Tyranids from the day I started but I certainly can't afford to go out and buy all these new kits and tear apart my old ones and then bitz-mash expensive monster kits together for one monster and a pile of extras to be able to enjoy the benefits of the new rulebook while everything I already have, and have poured my creative energy and hobbyist's passion into, either becomes illegal, nerfed, or incapable of the job I had taken it for in the first place. I'm not one to invoke the Warmachine card often, but at least you tend get a feeling of consistency with your models. A big smashy robot with an axe and a ton of armor will always be a big smashy robot with an axe and tons of armor. But a Carnifex or Hive Tyrant? It's a crapshoot on whether anything I do with it will even be faq'd correctly. I know this is the norm for GW but that certainly does not make it OK in any capacity unless there are gross game balance/design mistakes to be fixed that warrant an outlawing. Many of these changes are characterful additions that restore some of the functionality that we've missed in the past, such as the bio-plasma blast from the carnifex. However, for every bio-plasma blast there is a lost characterful rule here, a pointless shifting of weapon stats there, the complete omission of rules that were always particular to Tyranids there except for 2 models out of the whole book, etc.

I keep seeing 'metagame' thrown around. Exactly what is 'The Metagame'?

The metagame refers to the optimal army composition choice based on what the majority ofother people play. If the majority of the people play mech, then it is sensible to bring a lot of anti tank weapons. Statements like "the metagame has changed such that melta is better than plasma" mean that people take a lot more mech and that it is better to have melta in your army over plasma. It is just an example I wont go into the melta v plasma debate.

So why do they keep closing the Warseer rumor threads, while this one is approaching page 42? I want more info that I can't find here, but warseer (the supposed source of many of the rumors and leaks) is in lockdown.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So why do they keep closing the Warseer rumor threads, while this one is approaching page 42? I want more info that I can't find here, but warseer (the supposed source of many of the rumors and leaks) is in lockdown.

Try here - http://forum.warpshadow.com/viewtopic.php?t=12625&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Just read the summary.

I think that Warseer keeps closing their rumor threads because they don't want to get in trouble for posting actual information, instead of just rumors. They quickly delete any posts with points values or large quotes from the Codex. Why, I don't know. They're kinda funny over there.

Thanks, but it still doesn't have the info I am looking for. I heard ravenors are going to be like lictors and deploy in groups of 1-3, but I wanted to confirm it. Also, I wanted to see what kind of unit sizes that Warriors get. I also was looking for some sort of artwork or ideas as to what I need to do to make a warrior an Alpha.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Thanks, but it still doesn't have the info I am looking for. I heard ravenors are going to be like lictors and deploy in groups of 1-3, but I wanted to confirm it. Also, I wanted to see what kind of unit sizes that Warriors get. I also was looking for some sort of artwork or ideas as to what I need to do to make a warrior an Alpha.

Just make an armless warrior and have green stuff handy thats what i'm doing, for other models too.

apwill4765 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Me?

I've always hated Tyranids.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

hmmm. . .sounds familiar. . .

Yes...

Still, how ironic it is that as fast as we spread progress and hope throughout the galaxy, the Tyranids spread death and despair. Only united can we hope to stand against them.

We must scour them from the stars before they do the same to us.

The blasphemy of the Tyranids is such that only one solution is acceptable. Extermination.

I probably shouldn't, but why haven't the space marines made Mortein guns? It would work like a charm.

You were right...you shouldn't.

And for a potential solution for FoxPhoenix135 for the alpha warrior variant...It's unlikely GW will ever make an actual model. Convert a regular warrior with whatever you feel appropriate. Of course you should probably wait a few more weeks if you wanna stick to official artwork, though for me I'm just gonna make it painfully obvious which one is "special" by adding a load of spikey stuff all over the carapace.

Alpharius wrote:Me?

I've always hated Tyranids.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

Funny.... exact same reasons why I love them....

What can man do against such reckless hate?

Alpharius wrote:Me?

I've always hated Tyranids.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

Hivemind wrote:Eat Him

Lukus83 wrote:You were right...you shouldn't.

And for a potential solution for FoxPhoenix135 for the alpha warrior variant...It's unlikely GW will ever make an actual model. Convert a regular warrior with whatever you feel appropriate. Of course you should probably wait a few more weeks if you wanna stick to official artwork, though for me I'm just gonna make it painfully obvious which one is "special" by adding a load of spikey stuff all over the carapace.

Or ask your Ol'Buddies at Chapterhousestudios.com to make a awesome and affordable conversion kit

Navarro is chomping at the bit to get started on BuG special character kits and a Spore Droppod.

Nick
Chapterhousestudios.com

so do warriors get to (ab)use the multiple wound allocation rules like nob bikers?

Chapterhouse wrote:Or ask your Ol'Buddies at Chapterhousestudios.com to make a awesome and affordable conversion kit

Navarro is chomping at the bit to get started on BuG special character kits and a Spore Droppod.

Nick
Chapterhousestudios.com

I am thinking that their will be some demand for lash whips (left and right) and bone swords (left and right) that some company might be able to capitalize on.

Warseer keeps getting locked down because the last rumor thread turned into 5 pages of mathhammer and 'Nids suck (neither of which pertain to actual rumors, it's why 'Seer also has an OT forum and 40k discussion forum) and then someone who had seen the codex had started posting individual points costs for stuff.

Which of course as we all know will result in C&D from GW legal (and they have a right too, look what happened with C:IG). The mods aren't as tolerant of IP breaches over on Warseer as they are here I think (that and being 'Seer is the source of 90% of rumors first those with connections don't want to face a lawsuit and/or other legal matters with GW (some of the rumor moles have NDA's they have to abide be, as selfish as some of you might make that out to be)).

It annoys me too not knowing a little more. I don't want exact points costs for everything but knowing if I can equip my bugs a certain way and be legal would be nice.

So until whiners stop and points costs stop getting posted on 'Seer the 'Nid rumor threads will never reopen.

Ok folks, I had another look at the printed out thing.

I looked at point costs, even gun-point costs even though I have no experience with them (makes it harder to memorize).

Tyrant is 170 points (280 for the big mofo)

Zoanthropes are indeed 60 points with synapse, warpfield (3++) and warp lighning (24" S5 AP3 blast or 18 "S10 AP1 assault 1, lance) and shadow of the warp.
1-3 in an elite brood, spore possible.

Yrmgal stealers are 23 points.

Stealers are 14 points. Can have scything talons (2 points iirc), furious charge and poison. Biggy is 46 points.

Warriors are 30 points, 3-9 in a brood (as Raveners) One can have a big gun (venom and strangler?) for 15 points for the small venomcannon and 10 for the other one. The rest have to have the same loadout, so no nob bikers.
Can have boneswords or one bonesword and lashwhip.
Poison and furious charge costs 5 points each.

Gaunts are 5 points. Hormas 6. Toxin and adrenal costs 1 for gaunts and 2 for hormas. Gives 4+ poison (for melee only!!) and furious charge respectively.
WoN is gone!

Rippers are a tenner.

Tervigon can indeed be troop per gaunt swarm.

Lictor CANNOT assault or move after appearing (within 1" without scatter, without terrain) but can shoot or run. The flesh hook is 12" S6 AP- Assault 2 rending! 65 points for one. 1-3 in a brood.

Carnifex is 160. Bio blasma is NOT given (short range plasma cannon)! Can buy it for 20 points. Big venomcannon is 25 points, Strangler I think is 20 points. Can only take one big-one. Has scything talon set as standard, can change each for a small gun! So you carnifexes are not invalid. Cost 10-15 points each, though!

Flying rippers and Warriors are +5 points more.

Gargoyles are 6 points.

Didn't look up the Alpha Warrior, sorry!

That's for now, won't see it until new year. So have fun with it!

Greets
Schepp himself


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:Warseer keeps getting locked down because the last rumor thread turned into 5 pages of mathhammer and 'Nids suck (neither of which pertain to actual rumors, it's why 'Seer also has an OT forum and 40k discussion forum) and then someone who had seen the codex had started posting individual points costs for stuff.

Which of course as we all know will result in C&D from GW legal (and they have a right too, look what happened with C:IG). The mods aren't as tolerant of IP breaches over on Warseer as they are here I think (that and being 'Seer is the source of 90% of rumors first those with connections don't want to face a lawsuit and/or other legal matters with GW (some of the rumor moles have NDA's they have to abide be, as selfish as some of you might make that out to be)).

It annoys me too not knowing a little more. I don't want exact points costs for everything but knowing if I can equip my bugs a certain way and be legal would be nice.

So until whiners stop and points costs stop getting posted on 'Seer the 'Nid rumor threads will never reopen.

Ups. Delete stuff that is too much please.

Greets
Schepp himself

CaptKaruthors wrote:What can man do against such reckless hate?

Alpharius wrote:Me?

I've always hated Tyranids.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred.

. Ahhh...Good quotes Alpharius. Appropriate for the topic.

What to do? "What I cannot crush with words, I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!"

Carnifex is 160. Bio blasma is NOT given (short range plasma cannon)! Can buy it for 20 points. Big venomcannon is 25 points, Strangler I think is 20 points. Can only take one big-one. Has scything talon set as standard, can change each for a small gun! So you carnifexes are not invalid. Cost 10-15 points each, though!

If they can only have one "big one" what does that do to Gunfexes.

Overall I like the changes to the Carnifex. The more I hear the more it looks worth the points.

Schepp himself wrote:
Zoanthropes are indeed 60 points with synapse, warpfield (3++) and warp lighning (24" S5 AP3 blast or 18 "S10 AP1 assault 1, lance) and shadow of the warp.
1-3 in an elite brood, spore possible.

Greets
Schepp himself

Can you confirm the BS 4 rumor for Zoes?

It means breaking guns off or simply calling one of the other guns a "smaller version". Could cause problems with wysiwyg.

I'd like to think 'Seer will get rumor threads back Schepp but at this point in time I can see the thread reopening (#5 no doubt), rumors being newly updated and then the first 8 posts being "OMG NIDS SUCK, WHINE, WHINE, WHATEVER AM I GONNA DO NOW, I MIGHT AS WELL GO /WRISTS BECAUSE I'M SO EMO".

It might be tolerated here to a point but so far you lot have actually been more civil about whining than over at 'Seer (and typically it's the other way around). LOL. The mods do give warnings but they will only spend so much time deleting posts before they just get tired of chasing the rabbit and close the hole. Mods have better things to do then spend 3-4 hours a day deleting posts even after repeated warnings to not break forum rules.

Hmm, still not sure if Lictor is worth even 65. Sure it has a shooting attack and it dropped 15 and apparently gained a wound but unless taken in broods of 2 or 3 that 65 points will still be wasted.

wyomingfox wrote:

Schepp himself wrote:
Zoanthropes are indeed 60 points with synapse, warpfield (3++) and warp lighning (24" S5 AP3 blast or 18 "S10 AP1 assault 1, lance) and shadow of the warp.
1-3 in an elite brood, spore possible.

Greets
Schepp himself

Can you confirm the BS 4 rumor for Zoes?

Confirmed.

Greets
Schepp himself

Thanks!

Mahu wrote:

Carnifex is 160. Bio blasma is NOT given (short range plasma cannon)! Can buy it for 20 points. Big venomcannon is 25 points, Strangler I think is 20 points. Can only take one big-one. Has scything talon set as standard, can change each for a small gun! So you carnifexes are not invalid. Cost 10-15 points each, though!

If they can only have one "big one" what does that do to Gunfexes.

Overall I like the changes to the Carnifex. The more I hear the more it looks worth the points.

I'm not 100% on what are the smaller ones exactly. As I said earlier, tyranid guns are not my cup of tea and I'm easily confused by them. Especially when you throw in some german. Biozidkanone and Stachelwürger don't mean that much to me. I had to look at the pictures like a jerviskid to identify them (Maybe they ain't that bad after all...)

Greets
Schepp himself

Hey Schepp!

I got a little question about spinefists. They are rumored as being S4 on the 'net but my local redshirts keep telling me it's S3. What did you hear on that one?

Thanks for the info schepp. Nice ot hear flesh hooks are rending.

Do you recall whether Instictive Behavior is found on most units, like say carnifexes? Curious since their leadership dropped to 6 and biovores lost brood telepathy.

So bio plasma is not standard on a fex? I have heard both bundled and not bundled in about a 50/50 split. I wonder if that is due to what page they are looking at? I can see bioplasma being detailed in the rules/fluff page on the carnifex and then people assuming it is standard perhaps?

Any event without plasma standard I think the carnifex is very overpriced (with it it was marginally so to balanced). Not ohh my gawd sky is falling overpriced, but overpriced none-the-less. And in no way is a 12" plasma cannon shot worth 20 points, even if it opens up a hybrid shooty/cc build. Am I alone in thinking that?

Schepp himself wrote:Especially when you throw in some german. Biozidkanone and Stachelwürger don't mean that much to me. I had to look at the pictures like a jerviskid to identify them (Maybe they ain't that bad after all...)

oh yeah, i feel with you...


@winterman:
I am almost sure that carnifexes do have instinctive behaviour (the CC type).

HoverBoy wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Thanks, but it still doesn't have the info I am looking for. I heard ravenors are going to be like lictors and deploy in groups of 1-3, but I wanted to confirm it. Also, I wanted to see what kind of unit sizes that Warriors get. I also was looking for some sort of artwork or ideas as to what I need to do to make a warrior an Alpha.

Just make an armless warrior and have green stuff handy thats what i'm doing, for other models too.

Currently my warriors are all armless with magnets being placed in those sockets... I need to get a bunch of GS going so I can redo the arms to work with them.

Allready making up a few boneswords (warriors will form my troops)
So they wont be a problem.

If you need a way of making a nid model hold them:

1: Make the bonesword (plasticard works wonders)
2: Use the warriors talon arm, remove the blade as close to the hand as possible.
3: Add 2-3 gaunt carapace plates where the blade used to be (makes an armoured hand guard and hides the cut)
4: Add the bonesword to the top.
5: Attatch the bio-feeder tube from the hand (bottom of it) to the top of the arm / elbow (nids have plenty of these on weapon arms, hack em off and use em)

Ill just have painted up warriors without arms until the dex comes out
If i get bored ill paint up all the arm options, but i rather wait.




Schepp: Thanks again mate for more info
If you do get another look, could you try and drag up some info on alpha warriors please?
Hoping to know thier upgrade options / movement so i can start some sketches.
Thanks

winterman wrote:Am I alone in thinking that?

Nope. Zoanthropes look even better with synapse... and the carnifex that I was really trying to champion are failing me.

It's not so much that they are horrifically overcosted. A really choppy 185 point venom cannon battery could be palatable if it wasn't sitting right next to a 175 point mawloc in the FOC. I need to hold the book in my hands and even play some games with different lists... but outside of really making the fex shooty and having that somehow be more useful than the mawloc arrival template or the trygon bio-electricity... it just seems like second fiddle to the slightly more expensive 'gons

Schepp, you are amazing, thanks so much.

If you do want to post some points costs, a suggestion:

Post things like "cost same as razorback with assault cannons" or "cost same as 3 vanilla speeders" and for biomorphs, stuff like "cost same as tac squad lascannon" and the like. That way we can all get the numbers and no one gets in trouble

(This idea is stolen completely from the warpshadow guy.)

EDIT: 100th post, w00t me (I feel a little dirty, but in a good way...)

schepp, thanks a lot for those rumors, can't wait to get my hands on the codex.

@Shep. I agree. Unless we are missing some rules Carnifex seem the weaker cousins.

Dakka-Fex have gone from 114 to ~180 and Sniper-fex are now invalid. Everything I am reading is making the Tervigon sound better and better as the new Dakka-fex.

Has anyone heard any wind at all about the point cost for the drop pod spore? That's about the main things that's keeping me back from toying around with skeletons of army lists. There's a big difference between it being (say) drop pod cost vs. chimera cost.

As a side note, does anyone know exactly how the Mawloc places its blast marker? Does it do it anywhere, a la Swooping Hawks grenade packs? Does it have a range, or does it only do it if it scatters into something (I had heard this initially as a rumor).

Dakkafex I read was 200(!). Gains 2 cc attacks and 4 more shots but loses living ammo (so about .5 more MEq avg kills via shooting and more chances to shake vehicles) -- dunno if that is worth 80+ point increase. Boomfex is confirmed 180 in the new WD, still unsure if the strangler got rending though. When bioplasma was rumored to be bundled that sounded like a pretty solid build -- now I dunno.

The only thing keeping me interested in the carnifexes are the yet undisclosed options, spore pods and the possibility that scytal rerolls work against vehicles (well that and the fact I have 3 magnetized fexes and 2 soon to be illegal gunfexes I'd like to use for more then just tervigon proxies).

I just used shooty Zoeys in a game last night for the first time in a long time. As is, they performed pretty well, but the KP issue cost me. So with the KP fix and these buffs, I think they'll be pretty darn good. To be honest, I found myself focusing fire from all three Zoeys on single targets much of the time anyway. So I don't see them being in a brood as much of a problem.

Regarding spore pods, I heard they cost 8 (current) spinegaunts. The Mawloc's blast is placed at its deep strike arrival point.

Oh, and I read in WD that Hive Fleet Gorgon is in the codex! Edit: Nothing to do with my army, of course. And now I'll have random people saying my color scheme is "wrong".

winterman wrote:So bio plasma is not standard on a fex? I have heard both bundled and not bundled in about a 50/50 split. I wonder if that is due to what page they are looking at? I can see bioplasma being detailed in the rules/fluff page on the carnifex and then people assuming it is standard perhaps?

Well remember how both 3rd and 4rth edition nid codices have mini stats and profiles for specific loadouts for the mutable species like harpies, spine guants, ect located at the bottom of the page, underneath the main entry. Maybe the 5th edition codex also has secondary profiles underneath the major heading and that is what is messing people up

winterman wrote:Any event without plasma standard I think the carnifex is very overpriced (with it it was marginally so to balanced). Not ohh my gawd sky is falling overpriced, but overpriced none-the-less. And in no way is a 12" plasma cannon shot worth 20 points, even if it opens up a hybrid shooty/cc build. Am I alone in thinking that?

Well, I think the general feedback from alot of previous posters were that even with Plasma buff, the carnifex seamed somewhat over-priced when compared to 4rth edition fexes.

The closest comparison right now is the ninja fex which for 113 points or so had 4 attacks and an effective WS 5 (adrenal gland and toxic miasma lowering opponents WS by 1). For a 160 points you get a ninjafex with a) Prefered Enemy b) +2 Init on the charge c) -1 effective WS. Definately better, but not a 47 points better IMO. Two of the buffs seam kinda mehh on a fex: furious charge because the likelhood of a non-winged, non-fleet MC getting the charge doesn't seem that likely, and toxic sacs because you will already be wounding on a 2+, making re-rolls not that powerfull.

Too be honest, I just have never been in love with a walking CC fex (just me, YMMV). Now, you can give them spore pod but at 200 points base, you are probabaly better off with a Trygon/Mawloc (from a CC standpoint that is).

That said, we don't have alot of good info on gun options and maybe this will be the redeeming factor for the fexes. But with hive guard and zoes filling out the anti-mech role effectively, I question the future of the gunfex.

I am actually now really curious as to whether you can drop 3 Zoanthropes in one pod or if its one pod.

Also, the statline I've seen for the pod has it havign a 6 shot ST6 - weapon.

The other thing I am excited about is the Gaunt MC guy the Tervigon having a monstrous troop choice that can spit out additional troops is crazy.


The thing I am most excited about though is the Deathstalker lictor; I really really hope he is the super lictor of 2nd editon.

By all accounts he is Rending on a 5+ as well as being able to have hit and run and reappear etc..

Now that is something I look forward to know more about

@wyomingfox. I am in the camp of the cheap fexes were undercosted, so 47 more points for super preferred enemy (PE, miasma and WS has no affect on vehicles, new scytals appear to), boost to I on charge and a decent shooting attack that made sense on a cc fex (with a BS boost to boot) seemed fine by me. Maybe slightly overcosted but not worth the wailing done on warseer.

Mostly cause then in a pod the carni is like a psuedo ironclad. Comes in, does some shooting (maybe supplemented by the pod), uses the pod to block or obscure LOS and influences your opponent from then on (using the pod to your advantage is something the trygon/mawloc doesn't get). Now the cost of such a thing just went up atleast 10 points for meh shooting to 20-40 for worthwhile shooting. But I am holding out for info on other biomorphs or weaponry or possibly spore pod upgrades.

wyomingfox wrote:Well, I think the general feedback from alot of previous posters were that even with Plasma buff, the carnifex seamed somewhat over-priced when compared to 4rth edition fexes.

Not compared to the most recently nerfed & upcosted Eldar Wraithlords, they're not...

And besides, those dakkafexes were probably undercosted if you asked any non-Nid players.

The Mawloc looks like a repeating S6 orbital strike with wounds to me. The Carnifex is definitely more killy in CC and a better tankbuster with better shooting options. However, the Trygon looks like an even better tankbuster except perhaps against the heaviest tanks, and you know some players will figure out how to get a lot of mileage out of Mawlocs and their mobility.

The back plate options for the Carnifex should be interesting. I assume one is some kind of spinefist variant. I wonder what the spore cysts will be? If they're offensive grenades, that'd be an interesting option and fill a need. There could also be rules for thornback or tail equipment.

It does seem that there's a danger here that the role of the Carnifex has narrowed greatly in among all these MC options. Maybe it's not unlike some of the Russ variants in the IG codex by the same author. Although I agree with winterman that pods might be what unlocks the Carnifex's value.

This sure is shaping up to be an interesting codex

@ John,

True, but this is 5th edition. Where most things got cheaper and anything that once hurt mech, or lacked mech, got less effective.

I am sure if you ask any non SM player, 40 point TH/SS termies are undercosted. If you ask any non-deamon player, 40 point blood crushers are undercosted. Any non ork player and... well, I am sure they will point at something.

As for ninjafexes, I din't see them as undercosted as I didn't see them as being effective at what they were suppose to do. Something that woddled across the board and was usually avoided by anything it could hurt.

5th edition made gunfexes marginal in thier chosen roll as antimech.

And Dakkafexes...yeah they were a good deal


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Shep wrote:Zoanthropes look even better with synapse...

Synapse? Schepp said Shadow in the Warp. I don't think he mentioned synapse...Geez they seam to be getting everything


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winterman wrote:Mostly cause then in a pod the carni is like a psuedo ironclad. Comes in, does some shooting (maybe supplemented by the pod), uses the pod to block or obscure LOS and influences your opponent from then on (using the pod to your advantage is something the trygon/mawloc doesn't get). Now the cost of such a thing just went up atleast 10 points for meh shooting to 20-40 for worthwhile shooting. But I am holding out for info on other biomorphs or weaponry or possibly spore pod upgrades.

Good points winterman. It will be interesting to digest all of the options that will be available, plus the added synergy that may come about. As for warseer, I havn't been to the site so I really can't comment on thier critiques.

wyomingfox wrote:Synapse? Schepp said Shadow in the Warp. I don't think he mentioned synapse...Geez they seam to be getting everything

Schepp himself wrote:Zoanthropes are indeed 60 points with synapse, warpfield (3++) and warp lighning (24" S5 AP3 blast or 18 "S10 AP1 assault 1, lance) and shadow of the warp.
1-3 in an elite brood, spore possible.

A STEAL at 60 points

I still think its hive guard/hive guard/zoanthrope. Primarily based on runes of warding and hoods/runes shutting down too much of your anti-transport. But for value, right now, hive guard and zoeys are looking like the two best units in the book so far... which is a real shame since they share a slot

I could see 'fexes being big in over 2k, non-Apoc. Obviously won't know points costs for a while but the advantage 'fex has over trygon/mawloc is that you max out at 3 (barring apoc and ps defenders) so if you are really hard pressed to get your army up to 2500 (and with cheaper gants/horms/stealers and cheaper gargoyles a mixed army at over 2k will probably need some fexes just to fill points.

Not to mention 'fexes, while being twice as much, benefit from crap tons of firepower. The trygon/mawloc appear to be cc oriented, the tyrannofex will be either overcosted/overhyped/or just something not everyone wants to take.

3 dakkafexes in the new codex might way in at around the 700pt mark but if in a brood together that is 12 T6 wounds, that while falling to plasma and melta, is still a reasonable assault threat and will pump out 36 twin liked S6 shots per turn. Sure no reroll for wounds but mathhammer says that brood will force 22 wounds on average against MEQ, even termies have to worry about making 22 armor saves.

I don't see the Trygon/Mawloc being no brainers or Tyrranofex being a no brainer honestly. I intend to take a Trygon/Mawloc for the models and still intend to field my 2 carnifi in large enough games (between 2k and 2500) just because I like the models.

It might be suboptimal but I also feel that 2 dakkafexes will mess up a lot of units, and if it's that big of a concern keep a venomthrope near by and get the advantage of 5+ invul and having a HUGE upper hand if those carnis should get assaulted.

Now that I think about it like that, it sounds like a reasonable use of points. Have the Dakkafexes go around and blast units, whittling them down, then swarm them with Hormagaunts and finish them off. I would definitely have a couple of Venomthropes close by, one for the Carnifexes and one for the Hormagaunts. Of course, that's just me, I tend to think more about unit synergy than the rather dodgy mathhammery goodness of individual units.

Shep wrote:A STEAL at 60 points

I still think its hive guard/hive guard/zoanthrope. Primarily based on runes of warding and hoods/runes shutting down too much of your anti-transport. But for value, right now, hive guard and zoeys are looking like the two best units in the book so far... which is a real shame since they share a slot

But that is why we have Apocalypse and Planet Strike


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warpcrafter wrote:I would definitely have a couple of Venomthropes close by, one for the Carnifexes and one for the Hormagaunts.

I personally am not holding my breath as far as the venomthrope giving MC cover saves. That is because like vehicles, MC must be 50% obscured in order to benefit from cover. So unless they address that issue in the rule, I don't think it will work.

warpcrafter wrote:Now that I think about it like that, it sounds like a reasonable use of points. Have the Dakkafexes go around and blast units, whittling them down, then swarm them with Hormagaunts and finish them off. I would definitely have a couple of Venomthropes close by, one for the Carnifexes and one for the Hormagaunts. Of course, that's just me, I tend to think more about unit synergy than the rather dodgy mathhammery goodness of individual units.

That's not a bad idea, but I wouldn't get more than 1 venomthrope. They are an elite choice and limit taking Zoanthropes and the sexy new Hive guard.


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wyomingfox wrote:

I personally am not holding my breath as far as the venomthrope giving MC cover saves. That is because like vehicles, MC must be 50% obscured in order to benefit from cover. So unless they address that issue in the rule, I don't think it will work.

I thought the venom save was similar to a kustom force field? Which means that vehicles and possibly MC count as obscured.

I wouldn't be using venomthropes at all. As mentioned by several others the zoanthropes and hive guard are shaping up to be the most competitive options. Though it may be fun to give them a go in fluffy horde lists.

It seems that there are going to be so many models requiring melta or plasma to deal with them that we are just going to overload our opponents with models. No wonder warriors are T4. Imagine 9 warriors, a trygon, a mawloc and a carnifex all podding/deepstriking down into the enemy lines...and that's in 1.5k (roughly). There's only so much melta and plasma 1 opponent can bring.

All said and done I'm excited.

One thing I've learned about horde armies from running Orks, is that the little critters with negligible saves need to be protected. By the way, if the Venomthrope's ability works anything like the Kustom Force Field, monstrous creatures should be protected as well.

I figure on using a unit of Venomthropes at the moment. They seem like a rather cool unit to me, and an effective defensive one as well. I do think I've had to mod up the model for em though, give em legs and arms mostly.

Lukus83 wrote:You were right...you shouldn't.

And for a potential solution for FoxPhoenix135 for the alpha warrior variant...It's unlikely GW will ever make an actual model. Convert a regular warrior with whatever you feel appropriate. Of course you should probably wait a few more weeks if you wanna stick to official artwork, though for me I'm just gonna make it painfully obvious which one is "special" by adding a load of spikey stuff all over the carapace.

Alpha Warrior = 3rd ed "Alien Queen" Hive Tyrant. Easy.

So what is the date this codex is coming out? And what seem to be the best units.... also I have 6 carnifexes can I convert them into something more useful?

@ Schepp - Thanks again.

I've decided that its time to break open the boxes of old stuff: warriors from Advanced Space Crusade that hadn't seen the light of day in over a decade, and are older than some Dakkaites. (You know the drill: You. Lawn. Off.)

winterman wrote:Dakkafex I read was 200(!). Gains 2 cc attacks and 4 more shots but loses living ammo (so about .5 more MEq avg kills via shooting and more chances to shake vehicles)

I hope you haven't been re-rolling VS vehicles

So let's talk Gaunts again.

8 pts. per hormie with toxin. I'm not sure whether that's better than 1/3rd of another basic hormie, in a tourney setting. That's a brood of 20 basic versus 15 enhanced, or an extra brood of 20 for every two broods of 30 taken.

The poison will really help against Plague Marines (ironically), Crushers, Thunderwolves, daemons of all sorts, and other 'Nids. If you don't have anything in the middle strength range (Warriors) and your force is pretty much Guant hordes plus MC, poison seems like a good idea. The little guys will need teeth to chew through even MEQ if they're often doing it on their own until the big bugs get there (especially if the big bugs are shooting).

However if you _do_ field Warriors, Hive guard etc., it looks like saving the points on the little guys and just using them as a tarpit is the best buy.

Does that sound right, or am I missing anything obvious?

Also, is anyone else seriously interested by the mention of 5-point wings for Warriors? Either basic flyers for 35 points or 10 points more with bonesword and lash whip (total 45 points) seems like a really good buy to me for forward Synapse support (possibly with power weapons and I1 for enemies) that can get into CC quickly and either slaughter or be safe from shooting.

Savnock wrote:...8 pts. per hormie with toxin...

as a 4+ toxin, its spectacular. Since there's not a whole lot of t2 assault troops running around those 8 points can now threaten everything. Their responsibilities are never vehicles, so why would one ever throw them at one? 8 point 2A infantry shouldn't try to do *everything*.

Those 8 point horm. can now drag down that big beastie while Warriors can be dedicated to grind out the midsize MEQ and have less risk of instant death for a better return. Warriors seem to be filling a hive synapse and close fire support role rather than the big hitting unit. at 10 points for the Furious charge/poison the Horms have me thinking that Warriors are more of a close fire support role.

I blame this on limited information on the tyranid weapons.
Look at these (warpshadow spoilers)
Spike blaster
18” S5 AP 5 Assault 4
Deathspitter
18" S5 Ap5 Assault 3

Without knowing the point break on assault 1 we could conclude that deathspitters are a waste of points. If this wasn't Cruddace writing it I'd even expect there to be some reason to it - but then again we have the heavy stubber/storm bolter issue on IG tanks.

All the info we have is still a bit fuzzy - none of the weapon stats that would be critical to make a comparison with are truly available. Between translation issues and a lack of completeness the Tyranid weapons make little to no sense. (proposed S3 AP6 A2 primary weapon on a warrior? 18" S5 Ap2-4 Assault 2+
isn't enough to plan around.

Spectacular? I'd rather have Fenrisian Wolves. They're faster, tougher, and can try to take on vehicles if necessary. Most of the time, you don't give up much offense for those benefits. I'll still use poisoned Hormies, probably, but I wouldn't hand them the awesome troop title. If you're up against Demons, other Tyranids, or lots of nobs, though, they're pretty vicious.

Except Codex: Tyranids =/= Codex: Space Wolves so it's silly to compare hormogaunts to wolves. If wolves are indeed a troop choice for Puppies than you are sacrificing GH's to take wolves (and to me that's a no-brainer to spam GH's) whereas for what their intended purpose is horms are the best in terms of cheapness troop the new nids will have. I still argue that 'stealers are infinitely better (at least currently) but horm's don't look to be a bad unit.

I think too many people are still picking apart this codex like everything should work in a vacuum. To me this codex does a better job exemplifying synergy than any 5th ed. codex to date. I don't really see one super solid, no brainer build in this army. Sure the picture will become clearer on January 16th (or sooner) but I see viable hordes, I see nidzilla and I see mixed all being relatively close to one another in power.

Again only the final codex will tell so until then lets try not to have people suffering anymore torn acl's.

Hmmm, you got me thinking about 'stealers now Fateweaver.

I'm interested to see if they perform a similar role to that of hormies (like now, which makes the 'stealers a no-brainer). They are both fast moving assault units. Both now have a sickly high I. It's looks as though they may still compete...although hormies have the disadvantage of being unable to hurt AV 10 unless you get furious charge. I'm sure there will be some differences though...

Mostly points I think. I'm considering hormogaunts and I was the only one in my group who thought they sucked in 4th (also the only 'nid player so I think opponents wanted easy kp's).

6pts more for a naked stealer that has slightly better stats. If you opt to tack on a BL (and who doesn't want to for as cheap as he now is and can get a couple really fun abilities/psi powers) that ups them even more.

If I was to go strictly horde I'd probably take 6 x 20 or 30 gaunts/gants; I'm leaning toward a mixed force so my 2 stealer broods will be supported by some gants and horm's.

I'm personally thinking going all out on hormagaunts with warriors (+ alpha) for synapse. Perhaps even a synapse trygon if points allow. I'm not entirely sure yet though as we have yet to see what the new codex will bring in terms of biomorphs and stats of creatures, although they should be similar to the previous edition 'dex.

Yeah, a few biomorphs not talked about yet so will either not exist or nobody has paid them much mind.

I'd like to get lictors to work but I'll have to experiment to see if I can. Guess if nothing more they are cheaper and give +1 to reserves.

They still should have had some sort of invul save in assault, that's where the galaxies deadliest predator sucks....LOL.

MilkmanAl wrote:Spectacular? I'd rather have Fenrisian Wolves. They're faster, tougher, and can try to take on vehicles if necessary. Most of the time, you don't give up much offense for those benefits. I'll still use poisoned Hormies, probably, but I wouldn't hand them the awesome troop title. If you're up against Demons, other Tyranids, or lots of nobs, though, they're pretty vicious.

fenrisian wolves wouldn't be fearless in synapse, aren't scoring, and aren't troops unless you buy a 185 point character...

It doesn't get more apples/oranges than that. I get that you want the 12" charge back... but I'll take the 4 point cost reduction, access to poison and FC, and the access to a drop pod over 4th edition hormagaunts.

And furious charging hormagaunts have just as many strength 4 attacks as fenrisian wolves if you are looking to use an inappropriate tool to attack a vehicle.


As for troops... I've figured out how I'm going to equip my hormies, and so I've started painting them. Termagants I am still cluesless about, as we don't have 100% confirmed information on gun statlines and costs.

But how about genestealers? Schepp's last bit of info on them gave us most of what we need...

same statline as 4th edition, all old upgrades gone. New upgrades include poison, furious charge and scything talons... seems like all those options cost more than one and less than three... and the stealer itself is "less than a grey hunter"

naked seems pretty good for the cost. Poison makes them much more dangerous against T4+ obviously. I could see using it. Scything talons are basically gonna be letting you re-roll half of your misses. That seems pretty good as well. Furious charge seems a little overcosted. With base initiative 6, there aren't going to be a lot of situations where you celebrate that +1. Strength 5 sounds nice, but if you've already gone down the poison road, it isn't going to yield that many more wounds than poison strength 4 will.

Strength 5 does threaten vehicles quite a bit, especially in conjunction with scytals (if they are unrestricted re-rolls as we have been told) but I know from experience that a 5+ save unit that gets that bunched up on a vehicle is usually scooped with little fuss in the following shooting phase. Mech armies pack way too much flamer for genestealers to have any plans on killing tanks.

So what do you guys think?

14 points? 16 points? 18 points? or keep spending the 20 we've already been spending and getting a REALLY scary unit out of it?

ChaosDave wrote:I thought the venom save was similar to a kustom force field? Which means that vehicles and possibly MC count as obscured.

warpcrafter wrote:By the way, if the Venomthrope's ability works anything like the Kustom Force Field, monstrous creatures should be protected as well.

Well, they said the same thing about stormcaller and that ended up affecting only non-vehicle units. Also, KFF doesn't provide concealment to MC (of course there isn't any in the dex) just vehicles. This would be a first. So not saying that venthropes won't effect MC, just that I wouldn't get my hopes up.

I do agree with warpcraft that the little guys could greatly benefit from cover, but the thrope is competing in a slot that contains your most effective ranged anti-tank weapons...a proven nessessity for 5th edition and one of the main reasons that nids have floundered so far in 5th. If Zoes weren't BS 4, AP 1 and lance, I would say sure, use a thrope. But, they really made Zoes and Hive Guard attractive tank hunters.

The thropes supposedly come in broods up to 3, so if I was going to take thropes (say if I knew I wasn't going up against mech), then I would probably take at least 2 in a brood because as Shep pointed out, they are only toughness 4. Taking one is just asking for a long fang squad, heavy weapons team, preditor to take a insta-kill shot at them.

It is still kinda early for list building, but so far I am wanting to try this:

HT w/ VC, Ancient Enemy, Psychic Scream
HT w/ VC, +1 reserve ability, Psychic Scream
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Zoes
25 Block of Hormies w/ Venom
25 Block of Hormies w/ Venom
30 Block of guants
Trygon
Mawloc
Biovores

Should be around 1850
*might sub out a HT for a few tervawhatitz depending on how bad that "death to all gaunts" drawback is


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Shep wrote:And furious charging hormagaunts have just as many strength 4 attacks as fenrisian wolves if you are looking to use an inappropriate tool to attack a vehicle.

Couldn't said it better myself.

I have 1 brood of 10 without Talons and one brood of 12 with.

Not sure on the poison front. I could see taking it as even though you are wounding most things on 4+ anyway, rerolling 1's, 2's and 3's when wounding will help increase the rending wounds rolled.

I felt that stealers base cost was fairly priced, just that some biomorphs were OP and some were UP. 1pt preferred enemy was too cheap but I felt sacs and talons were too costly.

Talons and carapace and feeder and scuttlers is what my stealers had for 28 pts per. Now they are still as good (better against T6 or higher) but cheaper. So now my Talon stealers might weigh in at 17pts plus whatever poison costs. Sure I lost the ability to save against bolters and anything else AP5 but for lets say 20pts tops for talons and poison I'm hitting MEQ's on 3's, rerolling 1's; wounding on 4's; rerolling 1's,2's and 3's and now BL is a sqaud upgrade for around 1/2 his current cost, loses power weapon attacks but gains the ability to cripple a squads nasty hitters plus infiltrate at no extra cost.

My scuttling, feeder, taloned, carapaced stealers went from 28pts per to lets say 20 pts per, gained a 1/2 cost BL who no longer takes up an HQ slot, gained infiltrate and gained the ability for their leader to gain 2 crippling psi powers.

What's not to love about these guys?

I hope you haven't been re-rolling VS vehicles

With living ammo? Of course not. "(so about .5 more MEq avg kills via shooting and more chances to shake vehicles)" was in regards to the new 200ish point dakka fex since it has 4 more shots then the current one.

Regarding genestealers, some points to consider:

--Early rumors indicated stealers would be cheaper but also lose a point of I and WS. I am assuming Schepp knows they are WS6 and I6 but maybe not? I wouldn'tbe upset if they went to I5 and WS5 though (could be much worse)

--Infiltrate bundled is pretty nice, throw back to 3ed. But I will be livid if they go all the way back and remove fleet. Rumors indicate they keep it though.

--Broodlord upgrade was sounding sweet as hell till he lost his power weapon. He is sounding more like an expensive frag grenade update then anything. I want to get a clear read of his psychic powers and points before buying any more broodlords but I can see mine staying off the shelf and on the table for testing (and maybe getting off my ass and painting my SH one).

--The biomorphs they can take seem ok, poison being nice for troop killing (seen what doom does for harlies, good stuff) and furious charge being purely for backup tank killing. Reroll 1's if its 1 point it might be worth it, but I ain't redoing all my stealers so I'll never use it regardless (I can add glands or paint my claws green easy enough).

All in all stealers ended up in good shape, better then I expected. However there's two things that give me pause that no one has discussed above that I see
----No extended carapace is a bummer imo, as I am of the opinion they are better with a 4+ save. This is especially true if you are making use of infiltrate. I'll deal with it though
----Losing move through cover (if true) is big also. For one infiltrating assaulters really benefit from it. Hell foot slogging assaulters in general really need it. For two 5+ save stealers can't be dilly dallying but yet absolutely have to use cover or perish from everyones most basic weaponry. I will lament the future charges that fail cause I could roll an extra dice.
----Frag grenades only via broodlord. Learned the hard way that stealers are the suck when going last. 5+ save I think would be even worse.

14 points? 16 points? 18 points? or keep spending the 20 we've already been spending and getting a REALLY scary unit out of it?

Based on my experience using the current stealers, I'd keep em 14 and if adding anything it would be the broodlord before anything else (for frag grenades and possibly the neato powers). I just can't stomach putting more points on them without a 4up save. Now if going full on stealer shock, then I could see mixing in some poison and furious charge -- but I am gonna play around with the new toys before trying out stealer shock again.

Shep wrote:naked seems pretty good for the cost. Poison makes them much more dangerous against T4+ obviously. I could see using it.
So what do you guys think? 14 points? 16 points? 18 points? or keep spending the 20 we've already been spending and getting a REALLY scary unit out of it?

I think the benefit of Talons over taking an extra attacker is too little to be worth using them at the speculated cost. They do not make enough impact against Infantry. I think my basic Genestealers will just have Poison.

If you have the points to take a full 12 Genestealers I could see the Furious Charge/Talon's combo working without Poison if your opponents run a lot of vehicles. However the 48 points spent on those two upgrades could buy you 98% of an extra Hive Guard with a Str 8 gun. He is much more likely to pop a transport at range than the genestealers are to rip it open.

I agree with winterman re the apparent loss of an extended carapace option for stealers - having them die en masse to plain bolters and similar weapons will really hurt. They seem expensive to be 'glass hammer' units, but the cost may restrict them to playing them that way: units which jump out of cover and (hopefully) cause mass bloodshed for one turn before being shot into green ooze the next turn.

Of course, as a Starship Troopers film fan, I have to admit that such a play style is certainly fluffy

Do `Stealers still get any kind of option letting Outflank?

Stealers are rumored to have infiltrate as standard now, so if true they can outflank.

Infiltrate allows you to outflank instead of setting up in an infiltrating position.

Very little is known about the new codex so maybe Tyranids retain "move through cover" army wide. People tend to gloss over rules that exist now and go right to the shiny new things.

Assuming the points costs I mentioned earlier my 'stealers get 8 pts cheaper per model...that's 96 pts saved and I go from 4 attacks on charge to 3 attacks rerolling any pesky ones that come up and I gain the ability to increase the possible number of "rends" by getting to reroll failed wound rolls against anything T4 or less.

Even losing the PW option for the BL he is rumored to retain his stats so will go first against 99% of anything out there, has 4 attacks on charge, hits on 3's, wounds on 2's with rending.

45 pts seems to not be a bad deal to me, just depends on the costs of his abilities.

Maybe carapace is still an option. I'm doubting it but we have too little info to know much of anything.

I have been translating from the German -
We had a rumour about weapon upgrades for MC's so it looks like little guns on big bugs are decent. Also only one set of Claws.

www.gw-fanworld.net wrote:Carnifex:
1-3 as a gang, KG3 BF3 S9 W6 LP4 I1 A4 MW7 RW3 160Pkt, 2xSensenklauen. 2 Ini in the attack. This is the base for 160P. Can be armed furthermore with
bioplasma. 12 " S7 DS2 Sturm1, Explosive.
adrenalin (Raving attack) and toxin (poison 4).
Once (1) scissors claws.
(1) Biozid or sting strangler.
Regeneration.
A spore capsule for 40P (only single).
Neuralfresser and Säurespucker. With the Neuro has he believes I the variation with brain worms (twice as much shot). I mean he could get a few more toys as for example an injector

Neuralfresser: 18 " S4 AP - Assault 3
With brain worms [Hirnwürmer] updates for monstrous Creaturen: 18 " S6 AP - Assault 6

This is just a funny online translation of "glancing" and shows Strangers are still Pinning.

www.gw-fanworld.net wrote:Heavy Venom Cannon - R:48 S:9 AP:4 Assault 1 Blowing
Not open vehicles receive an additional modifier -1 determining result on the vehicle damage table (-3 with go-faster stripe shots)

Barbed Strangler - R:24 S:4 DS:6 storms 1, 5" stencils, holding down
Stranglethorn Cannon - R:36 S:6 DS:4 storms 1, 5" stencils, holding down

Info on the Trygon Tunnels I had not seen posted?

www.gw-fanworld.net wrote:Trygon Tunnels
STarting the turn AFTER Trygon arives. One Infantry unit [no wings or MC's] can come through the tunnel from reserves.

Fateweaver wrote:Infiltrate allows you to outflank instead of setting up in an infiltrating position.

Even losing the PW option for the BL he is rumored to retain his stats so will go first against 99% of anything out there, has 4 attacks on charge, hits on 3's, wounds on 2's with rending.

45 pts seems to not be a bad deal to me, just depends on the costs of his abilities.

Maybe carapace is still an option. I'm doubting it but we have too little info to know much of anything.

The Brood lord gains compared to a genestealer +1 to almost any stat. +2 wounds actually. If he has a PW I don't know (think not considering the cost). When I look at the odd pointcosts for him, I wager if a stealer must be upgraded a la sargent. Making him a bit more expensive.
Carapace is, iirc, not an option for Genestealers, Yrmgal-stealers have it standard, though. Yrmgal stealers look pretty nice for little over 20 points. Especially because they can "morph" in their turn to get various stat-boosts.
Infiltrate (and move through cover?) is standard on stealers.

Another question asked here: Carnifex have the instinctive behavior: feed. So they run towards enemies if they fail their instinctive behavior test. Bummer for a gunfex.
Every Unit that has instinctive behavior has either lurk or feed as a reaction.

Genestealers are still with their good 'ol stats. I did not look at it closely, but I think I would've been surprised if it changed. Fleet is still in for them, too. They are pretty nice for their costs, but you have to protect them, as various posters already pointed out.

Scything talons are reroll 1s for one pair and reroll all for two.

And biomorphs are pretty much gone. Many units have upped stats already as base (Carnifex, Hive Tyrant...) and can mostly get the toxin or adrenal ones.

Did I forget anything?

Greets
Schepp himself

P.s. Sorry, I totally forgot to look up the basic weapon costs/stats. Maybe when those are known, shooting tyranids will get some love here. At the moment, I think the discussion shifts a it to the melee units. That may be because I'm totall biased towards melee tyranids. Some stuff to consider.

All sounds very good. BL currently I think is +1 over every stat of a normal stealer but +2 wounds so no change, loss of pw attacks but now no longer an IC, a couple of pretty nice abilities and a 35pt price drop.

Even with no upgrade other than toxin he is a 45pt sargeant that could smack around a PA Chaplain or PA Libby without breaking too much of a sweat.

The elite stealers look pretty cool. Will definately use a few in PS games or Apoc where force org matters not but my elites look to be taken up by 2 lictors, probably 1 or 2 venomthropes and probably 3 hive guard.

Oh...Venomthropes "spore field" affects all units. Maybe the translation was fishy, but I did not see anything that prohibits monstrous creatures.

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp himself wrote:And biomorphs are pretty much gone.

First they took away my Daemonic Gifts. Then they stole my Doctrines. Now they're taking our Biomorphs.

Soon they'll be coming for my Daemonhosts and Archo-Flagellants.

But I like a Biomorph...

Thinking about it if people do pay the points for talons, furious charge and poison we get to re-roll hits (well 1's anyway, but we hit pretty much everything on 3's) AND wounds. I just remembered the rules for poison, which is quite nasty...probably quite expensive though.

I hereby encourage you, Schepp, to look up the spinefist statline the next time you get a chance.
while all the rumors on the internet point towards S4, the German store-paper seems to say S3.

I would also love to hear from anyone outside of Germany what they heard about our most basic weapons. Maybe we just got another translation error.

I finally want to know how to assemble my gaunts...

Could anybody clarify what the rule for the Trygon deepstriking is? As I understand it I hear he cannot assault the turn he deep strikes. But if the scatter takes him over an enemy unit (like the Mawloc for example) does he assault it?

As far as I know, he mishaps

I have heard conflicting theories. I'm not sure which is correct.

As far as I understand, when the Mawloc deep strikes he hits the spot with the S6 AP3 large blast template and then the surviving models are moved away so that the Mawloc can be placed there. Trygon deep strikes just like every other unit in the game.

Schepp himself wrote:Oh...Venomthropes "spore field" affects all units. Maybe the translation was fishy, but I did not see anything that prohibits monstrous creatures.

It has more to do with the BRB that prohibits MC from benefitting from cover that does not provide 50% concealment. So the "spore field" rules must specifically mention that it obscures MC in the text in order for the MC to actually utilize a cover save and thus override the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

saryrn wrote:Could anybody clarify what the rule for the Trygon deepstriking is? As I understand it I hear he cannot assault the turn he deep strikes. But if the scatter takes him over an enemy unit (like the Mawloc for example) does he assault it?

All the rumors I have seen say that if a Trygon deepstrikes onto an enemy unit he does not suffer a mishap but instead models count as being assualted.

Not sure if its mentioned, but summary of points socts confirmed by WD:

Tyrant guard: 60 (+15)
Venomthrope 55
Hive Guard 50
Deathleaper 140 (+55)
Warriors 30 (devourer and talons basic, 3 d spitters and one VC is an extra 30) (+7)
Termagants 5 (-1)
Hormagants 6 (-4)
Gargoyles 6 (-6)
Ravenors 40 with rending and devourers (-10)
Mawloc 170
Trygon 200

I like poison on Genestealers. Just on Weds. night I had a generic greater daemon easily chew up my unit of Genestealers. With poison, I kill it in the first round without taking a casualty. AND that same unit gets better vs. MEq. I was big on poison before, but that game (vs. Nurgle-heavy CSMs) really underlined it.

Regarding Hormies, they're definitely a toughie at this point. If I had the slots, I'd think about using 6-pointers in large broods and smaller assassin broods of 10-pointer for anti-elite units, MCs, etc. It's interesting to consider whether 10-point hormies can replace Genestealers. They can certainly hit very hard and have a little more speed, even if they're obviously more fragile.

I agree that most of the gribbly units are more glass hammers than ever, and think it's absolutely all part of the "cinematic" angle in GW's eyes, even if it's not so great in game terms. I think it underlines how important using alternative deployment options is going to be. We'll really have to seize the initiative in the game and keep it.

The conflicting rumours for the Trygon scattering onto a unit are:

1. He mishaps
2. He stops 1' from the enemy, just like a drop pod
3. He counts as assaulting them

I would love if somebody who has some solid evidence could clarify this please.

I had the same question as saryrn. Additionally, do the spore pods have the Drop Pod/Daemonic Assault rules? Do half come in on the first turn, or do they just stay in regular reserves? It makes a big difference as to how they'll mesh with the other reservists (outflankers and Trygons and all).

Thanks anyone who's knowledgeable on the matter!

gorgon wrote:I like poison on Genestealers. Just on Weds. night I had a generic greater daemon easily chew up my unit of Genestealers. With poison, I kill it in the first round without taking a casualty. AND that same unit gets better vs. MEq. I was big on poison before, but that game (vs. Nurgle-heavy CSMs) really underlined it.

You don't see the problem with that?

I know we've yet to see 'the complete picture', but currently I'm still waiting to learn about some of the drawbacks...

FuzzyOrb wrote:I hereby encourage you, Schepp, to look up the spinefist statline the next time you get a chance.
while all the rumors on the internet point towards S4, the German store-paper seems to say S3.

I can only repeat what is on the German fan site which is saying Str 4.
Termaganten 5P - WS3 BF3 S3 T3 W1 I4? A1 LD6 SA 6+
Weapons: Bohrkäferschleider
Options: Raving attack +1P, toxin +1P, Stachelfaust +1p

Stachelfaust R:18 S:4 AP:5 Assault X (X= bearer's attacks), twin-linked
Bohrkäferschleuder R:18 S:4 AP:5 Assault 1

Other info on TERVIGON
Wenn sie stirbt bekommen alle ganten im umkreis von 6" 3W6 treffer der S:3 DS:-
If she dies everything in circle 6" takes 3d6 hits of S:3 AP:-

Alpha warrior 80P
1 model WS6 BS5 S5 T5 W4 I5 A4 LD10 SV 3+
Weapons: Scythes Talon pair, Neuralfresser [Devourer 18" S4 Ap- Assault 3]
Can get Swords pair of for 10P A warrior unit he joins has his WS & BS Synapse, shadow in the Warp

Alpharius wrote:

gorgon wrote:I like poison on Genestealers. Just on Weds. night I had a generic greater daemon easily chew up my unit of Genestealers. With poison, I kill it in the first round without taking a casualty. AND that same unit gets better vs. MEq. I was big on poison before, but that game (vs. Nurgle-heavy CSMs) really underlined it.

You don't see the problem with that?

I know we've yet to see 'the complete picture', but currently I'm still waiting to learn about some of the drawbacks...

Flip it around, and there's also a problem when 200+ pts of the galaxy's greatest predators go down in a whimper to a 110(?) pt generic GD.

Gaunts/Hormagaunts are T3, SV6+ and Genestealers will be T4, Sv5+ with no armor upgrades available. And if any of those Gaunts/Hormagaunts (do Genestealers still have Brood Telepathy?) get out of synapse range, they revert to instinctive behavior.

That really ought to be quite enough drawbacks.

Yeah, 5+ armor save is going to mean every ap5 gun in the opposing army will be pointed at them, which is damn near every gun in the game barring lasguns.

Not to mention if you run into a super resilient screen of something you'll lose more stealers in melee due to crappier armor save. Plaguebearers will present a bigger hurdle than they do now, even with the 'stealers wounding on 4's instead of 5's.

Well there are means to get into CC faster, and I have yet to play a 5th game that makes getting into cover difficult. That is if you are playing by the recomended 25% - 33% .

Oh I'm not bemoaning 'stealers. Just pointing out the drawbacks to 'stealers actually getting better offensively (which is about time) for around the same or less.

If rumored points are true my 12 stealers get 96 pts cheaper, trade some durability for a crap load more offensive power + the BL himself which doesn't sound like a "must buy" but they are upgrades I intend to take.

wyomingfox wrote:It has more to do with the BRB that prohibits MC from benefitting from cover that does not provide 50% concealment. So the "spore field" rules must specifically mention that it obscures MC in the text in order for the MC to actually utilize a cover save and thus override the BRB.

That would be from MCs trying to gain the benefit of cover from Terrain. There's nothing in the book that says they can't be given a save by a special rule or wargear, and if the Spore Clouds simply say all units, well, a MC is still a unit, and would get the benefit from it unless Spore Cloud has a rule that says otherwise.

My biggest concern is the total firesale on frag grenades :( Over here our tourneys run significantly more than every photo I've ever seen of a US/UK battle report EVER, so you're almost always going to be going last as nids here it seems :/

Your lashwhip units should be the ones hunting people cowering in cover. Other than that I think the bugs have the numbers to do alright going last.

Remember also that if you are in cover and engadged then you do not benifit from the rules of cover anymore. Send in the gaunts/gargs to hold them there and use the genestealers to finish them off.

On frag grenades....

You know, frag grenades have been one of those things that so many units have gotten lately. With every space marine variant, every guardsman except conscripts and slaanesh demons getting them for free, there just hasn't been a lot of reasons to get yourself into terrain based cover. The same has been going on with eternal warrior. Outside of crisis suits and nobs there hasn't been a competitive multi-wound unit in play for quite some time.

it'll be nice to see another set of models that are disadvantaged when charging into a prepared fighting position, and a few more important units that are vulnerable to heavy weapons fire.

Conversely, I hope its true that the broodlord gives genestealers frag equivalents. I don't mind hormagaunts flinging themselves suicidally into a line of space marines, but 14+ points per model stealers are kinda meant to go through the more dense cover areas to attack the prepared positions. that is a role they fulfill in the fluff and should probably be a role they fulfill in game as well. As for raveners and warriors, they could drop down to initiative 1 for all i care, they have enough wounds per model to soak up the non power fist attacks.

'll be nice to see another set of models that are disadvantaged when charging into a prepared fighting position, and a few more important units that are vulnerable to heavy weapons fire.

I agree, this codex is showing some interesting (gutsy even) design desicions, like the limited options for frag grenades. It kinda makes sense too, defeating nids should be about holing up in a bunker or behind obstacles (ala the last stand in Aliens)And there's other ways for tyranids to minimize striking last from cover outside of frag grenades. Tyrant tossing the WS1 power at the target unit. Tervigon giving the assaulting unit feel no pain to minimize casualties. Pinning weapons (assuming they still have them somewhere) or shooting something enough to make them want to go to ground. Also gives some disticntion between some units (those that get a frag option like stealers and MCs and those that apparently don't ala horms and ravs). It is too bad there's no longer a power like the current catalyst, where it woulda mattered more.

Aduro wrote:That would be from MCs trying to gain the benefit of cover from Terrain.

I am pretty sure that the 50% obscured rule for MC is for cover in general whether it be from area terrain or models blocking LOS, ect. I will check tonight. If I am right, then even if spore field says it provides cover for all units, unless obscured, the MC still wouldn't benefit from the cover. In any case, the RAW is vague enough that this is going to cause major arguements unless the language in Spore Field makes it very clear and goes out of its way to specify MC. Otherwise it comes down to two players calling each other TFG, which isn't very productive. So unless, it specifically states MC, I am going to use the Kirsanth way in interpreting the rule (ie take the interpretation that is least favorable to me and my nids).

I am pretty sure that the 50% obscured rule for MC is for cover in general whether it be from area terrain or models blocking LOS, ect. I will check tonight.

Being 'in cover' via terrain and blocked LOS and being granted a cover save are two different things. It will most certainly cause rusty spoon laden threads in YMDC I am sure.

That is a similar arguement that SW players are trying to use to justify 5+ cover saves for land speader "squads". Again, Stormcaller says it grants 5+ cover save to all squads and LS come is squads...BUT, vehicles can't make a 5+ cover save period unless it is simultaneously obscured...that is not even broaching the RAI crowd that interpret squads to mean units and want it to act like the 4rth Edition FAQ.

Other thing to mention is that pg 51 states: "Cover for them (MC) works exactly as for vehicles (see page 62)."

I really need to know the language for "spore clouds".

ChaosDave wrote:The difference is vehicles form squadrons not squads, so squads getting cover saves does not affect landspeeder squadrons. The Venom save specifies "unit", and everything the tyranids have are "units". At least that my take on the limited info we have so far.

Except the term "squads" is not defined in the codex or BRB and in the english language, squadrons and squads can be synonymous. This is the main point of contention.

wyomingfox wrote:That is a similar arguement that SW players are trying to use to justify 5+ cover saves for land speader "squads". Again, yeah it says it grants 5+ cover save to all squads and LS come is squads...BUT, vehicles can't make a 5+ cover save period unless it is simultaneously obscured...that is not even broching the RAI crowd that interpret squads to mean units.

I really need to know the language for "spore clouds".

The difference is vehicles form squadrons not squads, so squads getting cover saves does not affect landspeeder squadrons. The Venom save specifies "unit", and everything the tyranids have are "units". At least that my take on the limited info we have so far.

I was looking at the trygon model today. Looks like a pain in the ass to transport. All the spikey bits are going to break off.

Can someone get a check on how many biomorphs are lost?

olympia wrote:I was looking at the trygon model today. Looks like a pain in the ass to transport. All the spikey bits are going to break off.

No worse than the resin model.

And actually, the plastic model should be stronger - fewer plastic welds together, whereas resin is only glued & pinned.

It's not like Tyranids were ever easy to transport- the foam sheets I have only fit Termagants/Hormagaunts (and Hormagaunts are really pushing it)- anything bigger I have to cut into the foam for. Sort of a pain when you want to transport broods of Genestealers/Gargoyles, nevermind the larger 'Nids

ChaosDave wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:That is a similar arguement that SW players are trying to use to justify 5+ cover saves for land speader "squads". Again, yeah it says it grants 5+ cover save to all squads and LS come is squads...BUT, vehicles can't make a 5+ cover save period unless it is simultaneously obscured...that is not even broching the RAI crowd that interpret squads to mean units.

I really need to know the language for "spore clouds".

The difference is vehicles form squadrons not squads, so squads getting cover saves does not affect landspeeder squadrons. The Venom save specifies "unit", and everything the tyranids have are "units". At least that my take on the limited info we have so far.

The Space Wolf infantry units come in 'packs', so I guess the cover save doesn't apply to them either. Hello? In GW games, units mean everything and squads are no different. For example in WHFB, if an ability grants effects to 'all units within xx"' it also applies to characters running on their own, monsters, and so on.

Really guys? We have started to discuss the RAW (or possible RAW) of the Venomthropes cover save?

How about we just wait until we can see it in black and white? If it says "units within x" get 5+ cover save then I and my group will treat MC's as getting it as MC's are units, even a single MC is a "unit."

Yeah! Stop discussing new rules about at upcoming Codex!!!! Discussing rules about an upcoming Codex within the thread for discussing the upcoming Codex is just the wrong place to do it.

So stop!!!!!!

Has anyone confirmed whether the Trigon can assault after DSing or not?

Well, if we are going to argue the RAW of rumors perhaps it should be in YMDC. Afterall, that is the rules forum.

We know the rule exists H. Stoking your ego and making jackass comments about me saying we should not discuss RAW about a rule we don't know the exact wording to is frankly, juvenile.

I didn't say we couldn't discuss the rules but discussing the RAW vs RAI actually is OT for this thread. Try again H. Your strawman comments are funny.

Thicker skin Fate, grow some.

Besides, the book isn't out yet, and this thread has been (for the past several pages at least) a discussion on the implications and possible uses for various new and existing Tyranid units. Rules discussions come into that, and for that very reason it's probably best to keep them all in the same spot for now.

Once the book's out I'm sure we can all rush off to our various sub-forums to discuss the details.

My skin is plenty thick. I'm not hurt by your "ego stroking" as it does no good to bitch about it officially so all I can do is vent.

This is a Tyranid rumor thread, not a "SW power has been ruled to do this" thread so the way a power is worded in codex SW has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

Fateweaver wrote:Afterall, that is the rules forum.

Its a rules forum...not a "rumored" rules forum. Big difference. I did bother to bring it up there, though I doubt people on YMDC are going to bother. Also, this seams to me to be a new precidence as I don't know of any other powers or wargear that grant cover to MC.


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Clay Williams wrote:Well there are means to get into CC faster, and I have yet to play a 5th game that makes getting into cover difficult. That is if you are playing by the recomended 25% - 33% .

And if your opponents or reffs aren't use to placing the terrain on the board edges rather than in the center.


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Shep had asked about what would be the most ideal loadouts so I computed ratios for the various upgrades available for genestealers based on toughness 4 victims. Specifically, I wanted to compare points increases to increases in wounding and rending. Just a reference, YMMV.

IT IS EASIER TO READ THE TABLES BY HITTING QUOTE BUTTON AND REVIEWING THEM IN THE POST REPLY DIALOG BOX

What I found was that poisoned attack seams to have the best value (due to rerolling failed wounds) and that adding additional biomorphs had quick diminishing returns that seamed to make the overall raitio lower and thus less effecient. T5+ opponents would increase the efficiencies of the poisoned attack in comparison to the other options, while T3 would lower it in comparison.

Upgrade % of Base # Wounds # Wounds % Ratio # of Rends # of Rends % Ratio
Base Pts Pts Pts Base Upgrade Increase WDSTS Base Upgrade Increase Rendsts
Poisoned 14 1 7% 1.00 1.50 50% 7.00 0.33 0.50 50% 7.00
Poisoned 14 2 14% 1.00 1.50 50% 3.50 0.33 0.50 50% 3.50
Poisoned 14 3 21% 1.00 1.50 50% 2.33 0.33 0.50 50% 2.33


Furious 14 1 7% 1.00 1.33 33% 4.67 0.33 0.33 0% -
Furious 14 2 14% 1.00 1.33 33% 2.33 0.33 0.33 0% -
Furious 14 3 21% 1.00 1.33 33% 1.56 0.33 0.33 0% -


Scytails 14 1 7% 1.00 1.17 17% 2.33 0.33 0.39 17% 2.33
Scytails 14 2 14% 1.00 1.17 17% 1.17 0.33 0.39 17% 1.17
Scytails 14 3 21% 1.00 1.17 17% 0.78 0.33 0.39 17% 0.78

Adding Furious to Poisoned
14 2 14% 1.00 1.78 78% 5.44 0.33 0.50 50% 3.50
14 4 29% 1.00 1.78 78% 2.72 0.33 0.50 50% 1.75
14 6 43% 1.00 1.78 78% 1.81 0.33 0.50 50% 1.17

Adding Scytails to Poisoned
14 2 14% 1.00 1.75 75% 5.25 0.33 0.58 75% 5.25
14 4 29% 1.00 1.75 75% 2.63 0.33 0.58 75% 2.63
14 6 43% 1.00 1.75 75% 1.75 0.33 0.58 75% 1.75

Adding Scytails to Furious Charge and Poisoned
14 3 21% 1.00 2.07 107% 5.01 0.33 0.58 75% 3.50
14 6 43% 1.00 2.07 107% 2.51 0.33 0.58 75% 1.75
14 9 64% 1.00 2.07 107% 1.67 0.33 0.58 75% 1.17



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Also wanted to see the relationship between points increase and loss of wounds which I think will be important given our 5+ armour sv.

Assuming that we would start out with a 12 man squad of unmodified stealers for 168 pts:

Upgrade # of Models # of Models % Loss
Base Pts Pts 168 pts Upgraded of Wds
14 1 12 11.20 -7%
14 2 12 10.50 -13%
14 3 12 9.88 -18%
14 4 12 9.33 -22%
14 5 12 8.84 -26%
14 6 12 8.40 -30%
14 7 12 8.00 -33%
14 8 12 7.64 -36%
14 9 12 7.30 -39%



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Based on these ratios, if poison and furious charge are costed at 2pts and scyths at 1 pt, I think the most value added upgrade when dealing with MEQ will likely be poison (given the ratio for both rending and wounds). Given deminishing returns, I feel that adding anything beyond poison will likely add too little value to the point cost. Just my oppinion.

Now now, fate and h, you gotta play nice or this thread will get locked.

Hollismason, I have heard it both ways but have yet to actually heard it confirmed. The Mawloc, on the other hand, I have heard confirmed that it creates a blast effect of some sort when ds-ing.

Codex hasn't come in today (yet, could be this evening) but it could arrive tomorrow or monday. That's what I got from the store owner by phone. However from a store staff member (while I was there earlier today), he said that I would have to wait till january the 10th...

I guess we are back to waiting for schepp.

And for Wyomingfox, thanks for your math hammering. Got to admit I'm not entirely clear on the numbers, but appreciated anyway.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Thicker skin Fate, grow some.

That's your answer to everything, isn't it? "Shot in he gut? Why don't you grow a pair, sissy?" "Nuclear meltdown? Pah, that's what you get for being a whiner."

Carnifex:
WS 3 BS 3 S 6 T 6 W 4 I 1 A 4 LD 6 Sv 3+
- may be taken in squads of 1-3
- pretty expensive
- need I to mention that they may buy freaking EVERYTING?
- no more profile upgrades


--------------------------------------------------

That is what I read on another forum... is it true that my fex's are going to have nearly HALF the strength that they used to, or is this a typo? I could see them lowering it to 8, or even 7, but 6 just sounds like a typo. With no option to increase it, I don't see how that can be accurate.

No that was a typo. Str of the fex is 9, and it is even confirmed by January White Dwarf.

The new cost of the fex is 32 of the old naked spinegaunts. Conflicting reports as to whether it comes with bioplasma or not. Conflicting reports also as to whether it is I1 or I2 base. I tend to believe he is I 2 base.

Oh thank you saryn, you just made my day. I about freaked out when I saw that typo... thinking: "No way my 'fex is as lame as a lictor." lol.

So is the confirmed range for this bio-plasma 12" or what? I tend to think that this is not a standard option (based purely on the fact that they have a separate head in the sprue for that ability, so they may as well make it not-standard for WYSIWYG purposes) but I am fortunate enough to have modeled my fexes with the appropriate plasma-spitting heads.

wyomingfox wrote:Shep had asked about what would be the most ideal loadouts so I computed ratios for the various upgrades available for genestealers based on toughness 4 victims. Specifically, I wanted to compare points increases to increases in wounding and rending. Just a reference, YMMV.

What I found was that poisoned attack seams to have the best value (due to rerolling failed wounds) and that adding additional biomorphs had quick diminishing returns that seamed to make the overall raitio lower and thus less effecient. T5+ opponents would increase the efficiencies of the poisoned attack in comparison to the other options, while T3 would lower it in comparison.

I do not really follow your table but did some Mathhammer of my own. Talons are a fraction better against T3 opponents but otherwise you get so few misses hitting on 3+ that the cost is not worth the loss of extra models (I compared units of the same cost). I also found Toxic stealers to be the best value for points (assuming all the upgrades cost the same).

saryrn wrote: Conflicting reports also as to whether it is I1 or I2 base. I tend to believe he is I 2 base.

I was thinking about this, and it would make sense if it was I: 2, otherwise crushing claws would not have a negative effect on it, nor would assaulting into cover. Of course, it wouldn't be out of line if it was I: 1, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

saryrn wrote:No that was a typo. Str of the fex is 9, and it is even confirmed by January White Dwarf.

The new cost of the fex is 32 of the old naked spinegaunts. Conflicting reports as to whether it comes with bioplasma or not. Conflicting reports also as to whether it is I1 or I2 base. I tend to believe he is I 2 base.

No conflict there.
It's S9
It comes without bioplasma (Upgrade for 20 points)
It's I1 (+2 on the charge, possible furious charge via adrenal glands)
Cost is right, though.

Oh, and I'm with my family right now, so no new peeks at the codex from me here. Sorry! Have a jolly christmas nonetheless.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. FoxPhoenix: you a right, soon enough. Crushing claws have negative effects when you consider the possible boni from FC and charging. CC negate them.
P.P.S. Agree with H.B.M.C though, even I'm not 100% sure how the rules are worded because I don't directly write them down. So It's pretty moot to discuss RAW/RAI at this stage...

Have a great xmas Schepp. Thanks for all you have given us this year.

Schepp himself wrote:
No conflict there.
It's S9
It comes without bioplasma (Upgrade for 20 points)
It's I1 (+2 on the charge, possible furious charge via adrenal glands)
Cost is right, though.

Oh, and I'm with my family right now, so no new peeks at the codex from me here. Sorry! Have a jolly christmas nonetheless.

Greets
Schepp himself

Thanks for all the information on the Codex Schepp, it's been really useful.

Good to see 'Fexes are S9 still- S6 would have been the final nail in the coffin for them

If you attempt to read the bottom paragraph, you will see it mentioning "Trygon Prime"! You can also see the extra parts right next to the big Mawloc!
According to the article, The trygon prime has synapse and boosts the range of the tygon's range attack! I'm sorry if this has been mentioned.


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They're going to delete the image, I just know it. Here's a link!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=6700019a

Klawz wrote:If you attempt to read the bottom paragraph, you will see it mentioning "Trygon Prime"! You can also see the extra parts right next to the big Mawloc!
According to the article, The trygon prime has synapse and boosts the range of the tygon's range attack! I'm sorry if this has been mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're going to delete the image, I just know it. Here's a link!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=6700019a

Nice find, Mr. Eagle Eyes!

And really, can everyone please stay on topic and leave out personal attacks?

I'm at work, on a Saturday no less! I don't want to have to get all grumpy and such.

It is actually quite amazing that this thread has made it out to this many pages and is still delivering the goods.

Lets keep it that way.

From white dwarf battle report, scything talons allow reroll of 1 to hit. (I'm not going through 45 pages to see if that has been already posted)

In that battle report the trygon didn't assault when it deep striked, but did the turn after (looks like it didn't move) so my guess is no assaulting after DS.

They don't mention the carnifex or hive tyrant taking cover saves though they look like they're close to the venomthrope (could've just not come up)

The death leaper didn't assault when it appeared either. It did score a penetrating hit on an ironclad in combat though... and later they say clearly he can't assault since he just appeared.

The only mention of loss of wounds from fearless is the mawloc. But there were many combats where the SM won and they didn't say anything about it. And elsewhere in the book, the state synapse gives fearless, so tar pits still kill themselves.

Oh and they said they playtested it alot, and that "I don't think there is a best army combination..." that makes me laugh. How long before the new Nidzilla list gets spammed?

Legendary creatures mentioned: deathleaper, doom of Malan'tai, Parasite of Mortrex

Deminyn wrote:From white dwarf battle report, scything talons allow reroll of 1 to hit. (I'm not going through 45 pages to see if that has been already posted)

In that battle report the trygon didn't assault when it deep striked, but did the turn after (looks like it didn't move) so my guess is no assaulting after DS.

Yeah, it's already been said- 1 set of Scything Talons allows you to re-roll any 1's to hit, 2 sets allows you to re-roll all misses (not just 1s).

Hey wyoming: Do you take into account that poison allows rerolls to failed wounds if the model's strength is equal to or better than the other model's toughness?

edit: looks like you do.

Also, does the alpha warrior have other psychic powers other than synapse? Oh, and do we still have catalyst?

Lukus83 wrote:And for Wyomingfox, thanks for your math hammering. Got to admit I'm not entirely clear on the numbers, but appreciated anyway.

Yeah, well for one, the table is hard to read unless you click the QUOTE button on my post and open up the post reply dialogue box. If anyone knows code to create tables that would be nice....that doesn't take 2 hours .

But yeah here I will try to explain:

Take the first data row listed as Poison in my table:
The base genestealer cost is 14 points. If the upgrade costed 1 point, then the cost would be 7% of the base cost or a 7% increase. A base genestealer on the charge attacking a T4 enemy will cause 1 wound. With Poison, he will cause 1.5 wounds or a 50% increase in effectiveness. Taking the ratio of increased wounds to increased cost yields a value of 7 (this value is just to compare the effectiveness of the differnet biomorph combinations at differnet costs). Moving on, a base genestealer will cause .33 rends, whereas a genestealer with poison will cause .50 wounds or a 50% increase. Taking the ratio of increased rends to increased cost again yields a value of 7.

Now look at the 4rth data row, labeled Scythtals:
Again base genestealer is 14 points. If the upgrade costed 1 point, then the cost would be a 7% increase. A base genestealer on the charge attacking a T4 enemy will cause 1 wound. With Scythtals, he will cause 1.17 wounds or a 17% increase. Taking the ratio of increased wounds to increased cost yields a value of 2.3 (nearly a third of the value of poison which was 7). Moving on, a base genestealer will cause .33 rends, whereas a genestealer with Scythtals will cause .39 wounds or a 17% increase. Taking the ratio of increased rends to increased cost again yields a value of 2.3 (again, only a third of the value of poison).

So assuming both biomorphs costs 1 point each, Poison/Venom would be a far superior choice over Scythals against T4+ opponents

Now look at the 13th data row, which is computing the value of adding both Scythtals and Poison:
Base genestealer is 14 points. If the upgrades together costed 2 points total, then the cost would be a 14% increase. A base genestealer will cause 1 wound. With Scythtals and Poison, he will cause 1.75 wounds or a 75% increase. Taking the ratio of increased wounds to increased cost yields a value of 5.25 (a third less than the value of poison alone). Moving on, a base genestealer will cause .33 rends, whereas a genestealer with Scythtals and poison will cause .58 wounds or a 75% increase. Taking the ratio of increased rends to increased cost again yields a value of 5.25.

In this scenario, adding additional biomorphs to venom/poison reaps diminishing returns on your investment and as such is a less valuable option.


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When looking at T3 opponents, venom still looks to be the slightly better value if all upgrades are costed equal.

Saw the new Trygon at a store yesterday, damn but those things look awesome.

Thank god no Mawloc, however.

Saw the Mawloc today at my FLGS, looks spanking good, if a bit short. Model does fill the base nicely. Also saw a Trygon at another store, but that one looked like gak.

Surprise surprise, the Nids lose in their bat rep to show their worth. Losing to Salamanders assisted by Legion of the Damned.

Battlefoam: Trygon Carriers

I'm sure we'll all be wanting them to make these.

BrookM wrote:Saw the Mawloc today at my FLGS, looks spanking good, if a bit short. Model does fill the base nicely. Also saw a Trygon at another store, but that one looked like gak.

Surprise surprise, the Nids lose in their bat rep to show their worth. Losing to Salamanders assisted by Legion of the Damned.

The New Thing does seem to be to lose in your inaugural battle report.

Of course, the Skaven had an 'excuse' when they did lose.

And I find the 'we playtested it a lot' comment to be... amusing...

That blows that Deathleaper cannot assault at appearing welp.

Sad. Losing in their premier battle report. Not a big confidence-inspiring advertisement.

Nids lost, but the other new release, the Legion of the Damned won.

I think someone posted statistics but 90 percent of the time space marines win in White Dwarf.

So what is this Trygon Prime supposed to be? Is it going to be another HQ option, or is it just a special kind of Trygon for the Heavy Support option?

Prime does more damage and has synapse.

Well I knew that, but there were rumors earlier about it being able to be an HQ option. I am trying to determine if those are totally off-base or not.

I think it comes with Shadow in the Warp as well

Isn't everyone pretty much needing synapse now?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Sad. Losing in their premier battle report. Not a big confidence-inspiring advertisement.

WD battle reports are known for great terrain, special house rules, beautiful models and fluff over tactics. Seldom do I see good tactical list building as a criteria for a WD battle report.

Well put, wyo fox. They do get some freaking awesome terrain in there.

So on another topic: Spore Pods. Who has started making them, and what do you envision them looking like? I know I want to make a few, just to make sure I have some ready by Jan., but I don't really know the materials, size, and look I want to use.

Soak a Tennis Ball in liquid nitrogen, then drop it on the ground. That's pretty much what I think about when I think of Tyranid spores. Might have to adjust that thinking however, what with them having their own full profiles and weapons that survive impact, which I dislike.

Saw the new trygon, gargoyle and ravenor spues today, are very very nice.

Me and Mekboy are a bit confused though as our local GW is running a nid preview on tuesday get still no codex...

There are a actully pictures of them you can find to model off of from what I recall they looked like a venus fly trap that unfolded with petals and the center were whips.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So on another topic: Spore Pods. Who has started making them, and what do you envision them looking like? I know I want to make a few, just to make sure I have some ready by Jan., but I don't really know the materials, size, and look I want to use.

Easy guide to Spore Pods -
1) Buy mega bloks plasma hatchers
2) Throw the toy away and keep the shell.
3) Undercoat and paint in your hive colours.
You now have one Drop Spore Pod finished, and it doubles up as a carry case for your MC!

I plan to make some spore pods out of clay, & fire them in my friend's kiln. I'll use glazes & oxides, and add a bit of paint, too. It's a really cheap but very effective way to make bio-mechanical alien-plant-like forms. For anyone who doesn't have a friend with a kiln, try adult education pottery classes.

Of course, I have a Dark Angels army to finish painting first... I might be persuaded to put the Daemonhunters and the Black Legion projects on hold for a bit & collect Nids as soon as I've finished the DA though.

The Alpha Trygon is an update to the heavy one. It's rather expensive though (around 2 warriors iirc), but you know what you get...better electric blast, and synapse at least.

The drawing of the Spore Pod is just a big fleshy balloon with a carnifex stroming out. Printed codex had no model-section, though.

The no assault after deepstiking with the trygon would have been my guess, too, but I reserved judgement until now. I don't believe it mishaps however. Take this with a grain of spice please.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.s. White Dwarf /= real life Warhammer because there is no spam... /

WD also have an obligation to show off all the new models, even though they might not be that good.

Another model I'm interested in are rippers. I seldom use except in the fluffiest of matches. I hope the rules make them more viable (though I doubt even that would help since they are SO vulnerable to S6 weapons).

ive seen all the new nid stuff the trygon looks amazing
so getting the new gargoiles its better than paying 2 for £12 but insted you get 10 for £18 !!!

Lyracian wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So on another topic: Spore Pods. Who has started making them, and what do you envision them looking like? I know I want to make a few, just to make sure I have some ready by Jan., but I don't really know the materials, size, and look I want to use.

Easy guide to Spore Pods -
1) Buy mega bloks plasma hatchers
2) Throw the toy away and keep the shell.
3) Undercoat and paint in your hive colours.
You now have one Drop Spore Pod finished, and it doubles up as a carry case for your MC!

If you get this one, you can still use the creature, which oddly enough has a sort of Tyranid look to it!

How long before GW sends a C&D to Mega Bloks over it's spore capsule things, or threatens to remove the drop spores from the codex if other companies don't stop making things that could be used for them?

I just jumped on Amazon.com and ordered some, just in case.

Gotta admit, kinda dissappointed in the No Zoanthrope in that battle report. With lance now, I'm curious how good they are. And they would've been great to have if they are supposed to be the tyranid anti tank and that mission 3/4 of the mission points were from killing something with armour.

Deminyn wrote:Gotta admit, kinda dissappointed in the No Zoanthrope in that battle report. With lance now, I'm curious how good they are. And they would've been great to have if they are supposed to be the tyranid anti tank and that mission 3/4 of the mission points were from killing something with armour.

I agree, but you've got to remember, they're not "The new hotness."

With the Carnifex supposedly be to get a +2 initiative bonus for charging, which already doesn't make any particular sense, I wonder how often the thing is actually going to be in a position to charge something it wants to fight that the I bonus will matter against.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Sad. Losing in their premier battle report. Not a big confidence-inspiring advertisement.

Agreed.

There's no way on earth that I'm starting Nids if they can't even win their release battle.

I'm going to tell my friends, too.

New Nids suck so badly they can't win a WD battle - don't start them!

This thread is lurching towards its finish now...

Anybody have links to the artwork depicting spore pods? Or should I look in my old codex? I don't recall seeing a picture of one but maybe my memory is just bad.

Beyond looking like cancerous brussel sprouts there aren't any real depictions of spore pods in the current codex. There may have been in the 3rd edition codex but not now.

That plasma hatcher thing is a good idea actually. They don't LOOK organic but then plastic mini's don't. A good paint job would help them go a long way.

I'm going to assume they are about 4-5 inches tall (tyrant height)?

I posted a comparison pic back on page 34.
Got a link to some painted ones that I used in my tyranid terrain on page 35 or through my gallery.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Sad. Losing in their premier battle report. Not a big confidence-inspiring advertisement.

Actually it looks like the game should have been a draw. Unless something has changed and raveners have Synapse, the marines shouldn't have gotten a point for killing them. They only killed the 4 man warrior squad once, and the 3 man one twice. Also the nid army was 20 points less than the Marine army was, but that shouldn't make too much of a difference.

I'm very disappointed that Nids didn't win their battle report.

Nice terrain. That looks like far more work than I want to put into terrain. Looks awesome though.

I found a company online with those identical swizzle sticks (or near identical) for $6 US for 25.

I love the stalk idea.

Answer me this, dakka - if the nids had won, how many of you would just trot out the "new hotness wins battle report, what a surprise" line?

I don't really care who wins batreps. I like to look them over and read them for the various ways to use units. Sure they make mistakes but it gives you an idea.


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Also, those pod things look nice painted up......really alien like.

At $13 from Amazon price isn't too horrible either.

Railguns wrote:With the carnifex supposedly be to get a +2 initiative bonus for charging, which already doesn't make any particular sense, I wonder how often the thing is actually going to be in a position to charge something it wants to fight that the I bonus will matter against.

Terminators? Anything with powerfists or equivalent?
With furious charge wraithlord and dreadnaught (both have I4, right?).

Thanks for the tip with mega bloks, those dragon eggs are ridiculously cheap!

Greets
Schepp himself

FlammingGaunt wrote:I'm very disappointed that Nids didn't win their battle report.

It's an eye for an eye really. In 2008's October edition, Nids beat Space Marines in their release.

Aduro wrote:How long before GW sends a C&D to Mega Bloks over it's spore capsule things, or threatens to remove the drop spores from the codex if other companies don't stop making things that could be used for them?

No fears. These have been are for at (maybe) four years.

Been using them as 'pods' for years....

The Dreadnote wrote:Answer me this, dakka - if the nids had won, how many of you would just trot out the "new hotness wins battle report, what a surprise" line?

I'm somewhat surprised at the complaints myself. I remember when people used to complain that the new army always won their report, so the turn around seems odd. But hey, it's the internet, we're supposed to do noting but complain.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Well put, wyo fox. They do get some freaking awesome terrain in there.

So on another topic: Spore Pods. Who has started making them, and what do you envision them looking like? I know I want to make a few, just to make sure I have some ready by Jan., but I don't really know the materials, size, and look I want to use.

Navarro, our freelance Nid Sculptor is already drawing up concepts and starting to sculpt Spore Pods. Knowing him, they should be done sculpted within a month of the codex release and available for sale 2-3 weeks after. I want to price them in the 30-40$ range. Will be a good size to hopefully even hold a Carnifex.

Nick
Chapterhousetudios.com

Looking at the point cost etc.. it actually looks like taking a Mawloc over a Trigon is probably better. No deepstrike mishap , although unconfirmed the trigon get this.


The other thing I read was Ymgarl genestealers do have a disadvantage if revealed when enemy is in the same terrain as them they are destroyed!!!

Actually it looks like the game should have been a draw. Unless something has changed and raveners have Synapse, the marines shouldn't have gotten a point for killing them. They only killed the 4 man warrior squad once, and the 3 man one twice. Also the nid army was 20 points less than the Marine army was, but that shouldn't make too much of a difference.

In the top right of page 55 of the WD it says that captain varn is worth 1 VP for the marines if he is left alive at the end of the game. And it was a close game in my opinion if it had gone on for another turn i could see the tyranids winning the game quite easily with all that was left. I think it was simply a few bad tactical decisions that brought down the nids.

Sheck2,

Ya I bought a bunch of those toys the other day off amazon. I think they look good for bug pods.

can someone send me a link for this battle report?

slop27 wrote:

Actually it looks like the game should have been a draw. Unless something has changed and raveners have Synapse, the marines shouldn't have gotten a point for killing them. They only killed the 4 man warrior squad once, and the 3 man one twice. Also the nid army was 20 points less than the Marine army was, but that shouldn't make too much of a difference.

In the top right of page 55 of the WD it says that captain varn is worth 1 VP for the marines if he is left alive at the end of the game. And it was a close game in my opinion if it had gone on for another turn i could see the tyranids winning the game quite easily with all that was left. I think it was simply a few bad tactical decisions that brought down the nids.

OH! forgot about that! It really was an army designed to kill Nids anyway. twin-linked meltas and flamers Like we don't see enough of Vulkan as it is!!

Not to hijack the htread but since we are talking nids- p14 of the WD inplies that there should be some stuff on the GW web site under /Astronomicon
about nid Psychic powers, nids in CIties of Death & such ... cant seem to find it.

kayjay77 wrote:Not to hijack the htread but since we are talking nids- p14 of the WD inplies that there should be some stuff on the GW web site under /Astronomicon
about nid Psychic powers, nids in CIties of Death & such ... cant seem to find it.

Truly the most frustrating part my first WD purchase has been the above; lack of information. But atleast it's filled with any pictures. I have a feeling they might release that information come 'January 1st' since it is technically 'next months' issue.

Those are things to come this month on the website they arent out yet it looks like one a week until the actual nids come out.

Yeah you guys bought all those pods! I could only find 3 for 6.50 each (all mine!). I think what is left are 9.99.

chapterhouse,

I only bought 8 . But I think they should pretty easy to cast. I plan to give a few to the other nid players in my area.

Plus my kids loved the little toys and the sticky stuff inside.

Based on the size of the pods next to the nids above, the creatures they come with don't look so small. In fact, I just might get a bunch of the dinosaur ones so I can use them as my Tervigons.

The toys that come with the pods are very small. I am talking a little bigger than a gaunt. But the egg is nice and big.

Ok I am stoked now... I got a 3rd edition hive tyrant that is going to be my new alpha warrior, and I got a 2nd edition hive tyrant that I am going to combine with carnifex bits to make a cool-looking tyrant. I am sad to replace my broodlord, but at least this way I will have some HQ options!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Ok I am stoked now... I got a 3rd edition hive tyrant that is going to be my new alpha warrior, and I got a 2nd edition hive tyrant that I am going to combine with carnifex bits to make a cool-looking tyrant. I am sad to replace my broodlord, but at least this way I will have some HQ options!

I didn't think of using the 3rd tyrant for the alpha, that's a really good idea. I was going to make another flying tyrant but decided to hold off till the codex came out. I have 3 2nd ed. tyrants I'm going to make Hive guard out of, I'm not fond of the models and it will save me $60. You don't need to replace the broodlord, you'll need more!

I was thinking that the 3rd Edition would make a good base for the Tervigon. Alien Queen, anyone?

I'm not going to buy a $45 Trygon just to make a Tervigon. I'll probably just buy three Carnifexes and end up somehow with two Tervigons.

carnifex with scything talons for legs and a big ol eggsac made of sculpty

That's right.
Going with the artwork in the 'dex, It looks like a carnifex with 4 talons and slimy eggsacks attached to the underside.

FuzzyOrb wrote:That's right.
Going with the artwork in the 'dex, It looks like a carnifex with 4 talons and slimy eggsacks attached to the underside.

Damn, and I hate sculpting. Oh well. At least it'll be really gross, slimy and creepy, which is my vision of the Tyranids. By the way, does anybody out there is Dakkaland have any pics from the new Codex? I hate waiting.

I wonder if there's an easy out for the eggsac

kitsunez wrote:I wonder if there's an easy out for the eggsac

Must...not...make inappropriate comment...

Savnock wrote:

kitsunez wrote:I wonder if there's an easy out for the eggsac

Must...not...make inappropriate comment...

Oh do go on

It might be an idea to build an eggsac out of spare carapace pieces and place it where the tail would be on an ordinary Carnifex: basically think of the tail as an ovipositor reconfigured into a weapon like a wasp's sting and you're good.

Nurglitch wrote:It might be an idea to build an eggsac out of spare carapace pieces and place it where the tail would be

That's what she said!

Archonate wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:It might be an idea to build an eggsac out of spare carapace pieces and place it where the tail would be

That's what she said!

Thank you for that. Contributing absolutely nothing to this thread, I mean

I've been working on a "nid-ified" scratch-built bastion. I'll have it painted by tomorrow:

Wow, that's a great idea: allows one to bung something together quickly, and any mistakes will be "battle damage" or covered-over with icky 'Nid stuff. Stolen!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, I meant, "Mind if I nick that?"

By all means, please do! It is simply hot glue drizzled all over the piece.

Just got my pre-order sorted for the new Codex (yeah, I buckled). I know it's been mentioned already, but the manager of my local GW said the Hive Tyrant special character (with multiple boneswords) is true.

For anyone still wondering, he also said Old One Eye isn't in the new 'Dex, and confirmed what we've already heard (Ymgarl 'stealers, Death Leaper and the aforementioned Hive Tyrant).

Nice to finally see the models close-up too- the Mawloc really does look fantastic; the pictures don't do it justice. Pretty hyped now

In the battle report of the newest WD it mentions that the tyrant has an ability called paroxysm. Anybody have any ideas as to what it does?

any idea on the trygon? is it going to be in the codex or is gw doing another apocalypse model like with the baneblade ?

It's in the codex.

crap thats scary.

You don't mean to propose we read the bloody thing, do you?

Neith wrote:Just got my pre-order sorted for the new Codex (yeah, I buckled). I know it's been mentioned already, but the manager of my local GW said the Hive Tyrant special character (with multiple boneswords) is true.

For anyone still wondering, he also said Old One Eye isn't in the new 'Dex, and confirmed what we've already heard (Ymgarl 'stealers, Death Leaper and the aforementioned Hive Tyrant).

Nice to finally see the models close-up too- the Mawloc really does look fantastic; the pictures don't do it justice. Pretty hyped now

Lemme see... A big scary alien dude with four swords. Where have I seen that image before? I shall call him Hive Tyrant Grievous! I'd prefer to have two regular Tyrants with wings to act as a Tag team. The Tyranid equivalent of Bubba-Ray and Devon.

Meh bone sword, lightsaber, they both instantly kill people.
I want to here more about this "paroxysm".

I hesitate to apply any kind of logic to GW and the rules they make but the actual definition of paroxysm is an outburst of rage. I would hazard a guess at some kind of combat bonus for friendly units or making the enemy stupid and award them with the rage universal special rule

All rules are logical. Whether that logic is consistent is quite another matter. Further the purposes of speculation, however, I think slop27 is onto something. It'd be nice to see the Rage rule actually get used.

It'd be nice to see the Rage rule actually get used.

The rage rule is kind of getting used in the new nid codex as the feeder instinctive behavior.

Nurglitch wrote:All rules are logical. Whether that logic is consistent is quite another matter.

Said like a true 40K player.

What does rage do anyway. I thnk all it is is that you have to move the model to the closest available unit and charge.

That would not be that great of a ability honestly.

I think Paroxysm or whatever it is called gives the unit furious charge or prefferred enemy.

Hmm, It's been confirmed by trusted sources on seer that OOE is in the codex, it's the Red Terror that doesn't have rules, only some fluff.

I also believe that the 'Nid character only has a pair of boneswords, not 4 of them. So no Grievouss rip off there.

There apparently is a psi power that makes all units within 12" pass a Ld test or suffering only having a WS and BS of 1 until the next 'Tyranid turn.

Hehe, BS1. Those meltas stop being so scary.

So paroxysm makes them so angry they cant see straight?

Hollismason wrote:What does rage do anyway. I thnk all it is is that you have to move the model to the closest available unit and charge.

That would not be that great of a ability honestly.

That's the idea, if the unit leaves synapse you lose control of it but it still does it's job as opposed to falling back or going to ground.
Very easy to take advantage of, just walk a vehicle into that hormi or termi horde and they are all useless.

I wanna know if the Trygon emergence hole counts as a table edge where you can walk on reserves or does it have to be other deep striking units, if it is the former then that would make some fun little situations letting loose psychic powers on the enemies lines.

Synapse appears to be as important as ever, it's just the drawbacks seem to be less. If outside of synapse instead of falling back, units such as hormogaunts will move toward the nearest threat and have to assault it. Anything with ranged weapons must shoot that turn if able but cannot move (which depending on the creature may not need to move in the first place).

If you are letting your stuff out of synapse range then you should suffer for it. I believe the IB is better in the new 'dex than currently. It's easy to break gaunts of both types and make them fall back.

Zoanthropes are rumored to have Synapse still, both Tyrants have it, Alpha Warrior has it, I think Warriors still have it, Trygon Alpha has it.

Rumor has it any unit (Tyranid unit just to clarify for the RAW people since RAW'ers loved saying that enemy units could use SM teleport/locator beacons) that doesn't have wings and that isn't an MC can use the tunnel.

As to the name of that power that lowers BS the leak was from someone who saw the german .pdf and I know it was called "mental scream" or "warp scream".

So then what paroxysm still a mystery? Or is it a weird translating thing?

Yeah, I thought that power was Warp Scream (or maybe the new Psychic Scream?). It probably doesn't affect vehicles, but it can almost shut down a unit on foot. Long Fangs, I'm looking at you.

For added fun, then give your Tyrant(s) the rumored "Unspeakable Horror" ability that makes all units wishing to charge or shoot them pass a Ld check or do nothing else that turn. Be interesting to see how much that one costs, if it's even true.

@Fateweaver -- I'm not convinced that the new IB is better. It depends if Troops/units under IB can hold/contest objectives.

wyomingfox wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Sad. Losing in their premier battle report. Not a big confidence-inspiring advertisement.

WD battle reports are known for great terrain, special house rules, beautiful models and fluff over tactics. Seldom do I see good tactical list building as a criteria for a WD battle report.

Yep that's the truth of it. Personally I would much rather see GT winners army lists and tactics discussed in articles. Or better yet cover the actual GT final game.

gorgon wrote:
@Fateweaver -- I'm not convinced that the new IB is better. It depends if Troops/units under IB can hold/contest objectives.

I've not heard whether they can or not either, but it occurs to me that if all the troops have the "feed" behavior that may make holding objectives without synapse functionally impossible if not specifically forbidden.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

gorgon wrote:
@Fateweaver -- I'm not convinced that the new IB is better. It depends if Troops/units under IB can hold/contest objectives.

I've not heard whether they can or not either, but it occurs to me that if all the troops have the "feed" behavior that may make holding objectives without synapse functionally impossible if not specifically forbidden.

I believe Termagants Lurk.

Fateweaver wrote:Hmm, It's been confirmed by trusted sources on seer that OOE is in the codex, it's the Red Terror that doesn't have rules, only some fluff.

Like I said, it was the manager of my local GW that said 'Old One Eye isn't in the new Codex', but the staff have been wrong before. I made a specific point of asking, seeing as I have an Old One Eye model from way back that needs repainting, and I wanted to know whether to paint it as a regular 'Fex or in Old One Eye's 'beetle' colours. I guess we'll find out on the 16th

The amount of inconsistency between different sources is alarming

That's the only certainty, it seems.

It's bizarre how sources keep lining up on certain things but then keep differing on others. It almost seems like an intentional campaign of misinformation. Which I don't actually think is the case. GW wouldn't put in that kind of effort.

Gw may simply be putting out misinformation to find the leaks. IIRC they've done it before.

Anyone else notice there's pics with Tervigon's in the Winter War objectives article posted today?

Page 4 of the article, 1 maybe 2 Tervigons

I see plenty of conversions using older models and some of Moloch's own Tyranids.

Yeah not saying they are official GW ones, but cool to see some spider like MCs surrounded by termagants.

Winter: Thats actually a staff's army mate.
All of which is heavily converted and was featured in a WD a while ago.
The flyrant is one example of this, he also has a 4 legged lictor (talon legs i think) in his army, along with tyrant guard with thrope heads and a human unit (parasites)

Ill try and dig out his army pics, but its some pretty nice stuff.

I dunno, I am looking at the middle MCs on square bases, they are too big to be lictors and while they could be old carnifex conversions, they sure fit the part. They look much like what Tervigons are rumored to look like and be armed with. If this is a staff army, seems plausible he made some new units for playtesting. *shrug* Or I am just seeing things.

winterman wrote:Anyone else notice there's pics with Tervigon's in the Winter War objectives article posted today?

Page 4 of the article, 1 maybe 2 Tervigons

The square based guys?

nvm I found them on moloch's website (tucked away). I would be surprised if they weren't repping Tervigon's, but they are nothing new to see I guess. Sorry folks!

I'm guessing resorting to IB wouldn't make a unit not scoring. Forcing a squad to eat dirt (pinning them) no longer takes away scoring status. In fact that's what SM Scouts are good at doing. Eat dirt on bottom of the 5th, get a 2+ save and you most likely will survive to hold (or deny a vital KP).

Not saying IB and pinning are one in the same as they aren't but nothing except the units own rules prevent a unit from scoring (except falling back but none of the units fall back anymore...they either suffer from Rage USR or shoot without moving).

I'm pretty sure the unspeakable horror is just the horror psychic ability.

I see plenty of conversions using older models and some of Moloch's own Tyranids.

Moloch's been mixing it up with the studio for quite some time I guess, and I'm 100% sure the name Mawloc is a tribute to him. Like I said before, this doesn't make the name any less slowed.

winterman wrote:Anyone else notice there's pics with Tervigon's in the Winter War objectives article posted today?

Page 4 of the article, 1 maybe 2 Tervigons

That image is from the Apocalypse book.

Yes...which happens to have been printed quite a while before the scheduled nid release. My guess is they are conversions.

I wonder exactly how long Moloch has been in cahoots with the studio. His stuff was in the last codex, and I think I read a WD battlereport using his models against Orks possibly before that.

Railguns wrote:in cahoots ?

And that is the point where my English skills fail.

It means conspiring.

Still looking for a confirmation as to whether a Trygon can assault if he lands on a unit or just "stops" next to it like a drop pod.

Dunno about you guys, but that's what I'm looking for the most.

Moloch wrote:

Railguns wrote:in cahoots ?

And that is the point where my English skills fail.

LOL. I think the original poster meant "cahoots" to mean "collaborating with" and not "conspiring with." Because conspiring seems a little dire when talking about little toy dinobugs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlammingGaunt wrote:I'm pretty sure the unspeakable horror is just the horror psychic ability.

Yeah, although the rumor was that The Horror was a different ability that just forced a single unit in 18" to make a morale check or fall back. Which would be potentially useful against units backed up against their board edge. But that set of rumors has been contradicted in other places, so I don't really even know what's accurate anymore.

At this point I'm hoping for a preorder accident that gets my codex sent out to me two weeks early.

Old one eye is in. Red Terror is not. Seen it in the printed out version of the german codex.

We should find a way to put all the rumors together so that folks don't have to read through this whole thread.

Greets
Schepp himself

gorgon wrote:

Moloch wrote:

Railguns wrote:in cahoots ?

And that is the point where my English skills fail.

LOL. I think the original poster meant "cahoots" to mean "collaborating with" and not "conspiring with." Because conspiring seems a little dire when talking about little toy dinobugs.

>Phew< I am relieved that no one has insulted my mother then...

That image is from the Apocalypse book.

Ahh, well I hate Apocalypse and don't own the book. Sorry again for the false alarm.

gorgon wrote:LOL. I think the original poster meant "cahoots" to mean "collaborating with" and not "conspiring with." Because conspiring seems a little dire when talking about little toy dinobugs.

Well im not a native english speaker so i did the best i can, collaborating does have a less evil ring to it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Schepp himself wrote:Old one eye is in. Red Terror is not. Seen it in the printed out version of the german codex.

We should find a way to put all the rumors together so that folks don't have to read through this whole thread.

Greets
Schepp himself

QFT

Schepp himself wrote:Old one eye is in. Red Terror is not. Seen it in the printed out version of the german codex.

We should find a way to put all the rumors together so that folks don't have to read through this whole thread.

Greets
Schepp himself

Remind me to never ask a GW employee about a forthcoming release again Thanks for clearing that up, Schepp.

Schepp himself wrote:Old one eye is in. Red Terror is not. Seen it in the printed out version of the german codex.
We should find a way to put all the rumors together so that folks don't have to read through this whole thread.
Greets
Schepp himself

It is all summerised on Warpshadow - http://forum.warpshadow.com/viewtopic.php?t=12625&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
and in German here - http://www.gw-fanworld.net/showthread.php?t=129381
We just need someone who can edit the first post here...

I am going to take this brief opportunity to ramble on a bit about what, from the rumours, I could see as going builds.

The Classic: A balanced aprach, staring lots of gaunts, a dash of MC's, and a bunch of the middle sized beasts. Really, anything goes. This looks like it might be one of the more common Builds.

Midzilla: Lots of the Mid-Sized monsters. Warriors for troops, Alphas for HQ, basically anything for Elites, Raveners foe Fast attack, and Biovores for heavy. The plan is to overwhelm the enemy with Multi-Wound creatures.

Toxishock: Spammed poison attacks. Basicaly, if it is S4 or less, it gets toxin sacks.

Nidzilla: It isn't gone, the adress has merely changed. I could see a couple types becomeing popular.

--Neo-Classical: Large numbers of Carnifex', with Hive Tyrant HQ. Instead of Elites, this build uses Broods of Carnifex'.
--Podzilla: In this varient, all your MC's ride in spore pods. Idea is to deepstrike in close and rip things apart.
--Endless Swarm: Sounds odd to call this Nidzilla, doesn't it? This army works on Tervigon Spam. Two in HQ, Three in troops, and the gaunt hordes. I do not see this as being to competetive, but it is themed, and looks fun.
--Creature Shock: Simply overwhelming your opponent with as Many MC's as you can fit. probbably will be the "Balanced" Nidzilla List.

See, I'm seeing several viable builds, not just one spamming carnifexes over and over again.

Nidzilla is not dead, Dakkafexes are not dead. I also don't see the Trygon or Mawloc becoming the defacto and only viable HS creature either.

We'll know more in a week or more but I am liking everything about this new codex.

yeah, me too. the only thing i would hate to see is the tervigon get spammed and abused. i've seen people hypothesize lists with like 5 of them in it.

i've been patiently waiting to see what this guy looks like, and i just don't want it to be the new assault terminators or nob bikers.

it has just a cool concept and i don't want it ruined like gene stealers have been for me. in the current codex if your not taking a brood lord with genestealers you can't be competitive, which means everyone takes them and they just seem so gross now.

I don't see Tervigon's as HQ choices being the best choice.

I like them as a troop choice though.

if your not taking a brood lord with genestealers you can't be competitive

I think 2 HT builds are better than brood lord builds in the current codex.

Holy Crap! 50 Pages! Please say that's a rumor sub forum record!


OT:

I'm worried about what the Tervigon's weakness is going to be... probably point cost or some strange Instant Death issue like toughness 4(5) or some such.

Edit: On second thought, that wasn't really on topic, so yeah.... cool tentacle squid thing...

I plan on keeping my Tervigons in the rear, pumping out reinforcements. I just hope that each turn's output from each separate Tervigon is not required to stay a discrete unit. That would be really irritating.

I am more curious about what the Tervigons *strength* is going to be.

I mean, its not bad, but nothing strikes me as spectacular.

well here is the stats i have seen:

TERVIGON
WS3 BS3 S5 T6 W6 I1 A3 LD10 Sv3+ Type: MC, costs less than Venerable Dread
- may spawn 3D6 termagants per movement phase which may be activated as normal, but on a double he can no longer spawn anything from now on
- Spike blaster 18" S5 Ap5 Assault 4
- Termagants within 6" may use his LD and gain Furious charge nad Poison (if Tervigon also have these, each costing around 2 Spinegaunts)
- If he dies, Gaunts near suffers 3D6 S3 Ap- hits
- Has Dominate psi power (18” Synapse) and may exchange it for (each one costing around 3 Spinegaunts):
The catalyst: a unit within 12 gains Feel No Pain USR
The force: unit within 12 may run/fleet AND shoot

so its a pretty decent cost, with lots of nice benefits. yes, they are gaunts. but every little bit helps. plus, he is a troop choice if a gaunt squad is taken. so of all the things the choice change and the ability to spawn units is what the major perks are.

Well, with all of those other benefits, perhaps I might not keep them in the backfield after all. Imagine, termagaunts with FNP and a Venomthrope around for a 5+ Invulnerable save, and assault 3 devourers? That's brutal. Plus, I now humbly request that some Tyranid emoticons be added to the selection on the left.

yes, and now imagine 5 of them running around. now every gaunt squad have FNP, furious charge, and poision.

like i said, i hope they don't get spammed too bad. i only know of two other tyranid players in my area so i have no worries.

Sneezypanda wrote:yes, and now imagine 5 of them running around. now every gaunt squad have FNP, furious charge, and poision.

like i said, i hope they don't get spammed too bad. i only know of two other tyranid players in my area so i have no worries.

Naww, gotta save some points for Hive Guard. They are promising.

midzilla isn't going to work for the same reasons why it didn't work in 3e. Imperial guard pieplates pick up entire squads, and most armies will have enough s8 shooting to make clearing the table in short order a reasonable objective. Powerfists and meltaguns will further compound the damage done.

AoD, nidzilla has nothing to do with squads as such mate.
You will find now that they are running something along these lines:

HQ:
Flyrant
tyrant

Elite:
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope

Troop:
5 warriors
5 warriors
(possibly more?)

Heavy:
trygon
mawloc
1-3 fex's


So, you have 2 DS'ing MC's that can pop up behind the russ's if needed.
Fex's will laugh at battlecannons.
The thropes will provide saves all round from shooting in most cases.

Also, i havent included the tervi, harpy or others since im unsure of how they work in lists.



also remember that a nid player can now bring 9 fex's to the table, much like guard can bring 3 russ's per choice

Sneezypanda wrote:well here is the stats i have seen:

TERVIGON
WS3 BS3 S5 T6 W6 I1 A3 LD10 Sv3+ Type: MC, costs less than Venerable Dread
- may spawn 3D6 termagants per movement phase which may be activated as normal, but on a double he can no longer spawn anything from now on
- Spike blaster 18" S5 Ap5 Assault 4
- Termagants within 6" may use his LD and gain Furious charge nad Poison (if Tervigon also have these, each costing around 2 Spinegaunts)
- If he dies, Gaunts near suffers 3D6 S3 Ap- hits
- Has Dominate psi power (18” Synapse) and may exchange it for (each one costing around 3 Spinegaunts):
The catalyst: a unit within 12 gains Feel No Pain USR
The force: unit within 12 may run/fleet AND shoot

so its a pretty decent cost, with lots of nice benefits. yes, they are gaunts. but every little bit helps. plus, he is a troop choice if a gaunt squad is taken. so of all the things the choice change and the ability to spawn units is what the major perks are.

That's quite a hardy troops choice, definitely. Leaving one hanging around a real objective is probably enough to destroy any outflanking IG squad And T6/W6 is tough enough make quickly killing one impossible without ignoring the inevitable 20-30 FC-FNP-gaunts surrounding it. The best plan seems to be to ignore the walking womb and simply blast its retinue into pulpus pieces. Alone, it doesn't hit that hard, and I'm willing to bet it can't pop out new pups if engaged in close combat.

That's just it. Even with only 1 carnifex per spore pod Mech shouldn't auto-steamroll nidzilla anymore.

Take the dakkafexes (or whatever you prefer), drop to the rear or side of a tank/apc and destroy it. Now with dakkafexes going from 8 shots rerolling to 12 shots rerolling you gain 4 more shots at the same strength. 12 S6 shots rerolling misses to the ass of a Rhino or Chimera or Serpant or anything not a LR should explode or at least become immobile.

Tyrants can now pop vehicles with the VC. Sure the shot scatters but it doesn't always scatter, it does hit on occasion (for the groups IG player his pie plates always roll hits and he uses the same die everyone else does so it's not loaded die).

I see Nidzilla being more viable (not taking into consideration the new big bugs); mixed sounds fun and viable, stealer shock is doable (moreso as BL is a squad upgrade and stealers are cheaper and arguably hit harder in exchange for a small amount of survivability); horde is doable (don't take the 2x the cost fexes in heavy, take trygons and horde is still cheaper and more numerous) than currently.

I'm not kissing the GW ass. I seriously don't see any negatives to how the army plays or how MY army plays. To those who spammed 'fexes in 4th because that was the Tyranid cheese......well maybe you should have built an army for fluff and fun, not because the 113pt dakkafex was the most broken unit in the game during 4th ed.

Fateweaver wrote:well maybe you should have built an army for fluff and fun, not because the 113pt dakkafex was the most broken unit in the game during 4th ed.

QFT

I still don't like the idea behind it and i personly like the changes with the dakkafex i may take one in a pod but i never have one list i always have 5-7 heavy supports for example so i have so good choice not one solid list.

well maybe you should have built an army for fluff and fun

Winning is fun, though.

But winning at ALL costs leaves you friendless, lonely and going to tournaments where people HAVE to play you.

Who said anything about winning at ALL costs? I don't tailor lists or bend the rules.

I get the feeling that playing to win is a crime sometimes.

Oh, don't take this the wrong way.
I play to win too. Most of the time I enjoy a game more if I win.

I also know that if I have beaten my friends for the umphteenth time in a row, it might be a smart move to tone it down a bit so they enjoy our time together too.

I was simply refering to people who feel the need to win at ALL costs. "At ALL costs" also include making the absolutly strongest list available to play against your friends and hiding behind "they can just play better", when told that it might not be the smartest thing to do.

OT question...who started the phrase "win at all costs"? Was that a Warseer concoction? Because that literally leaves open the idea of assaulting the guy in the parking lot so that you win by forfeit. Sure, you probably get arrested afterward. But you WON. I find it such a silly phrase to use in conjunction with a tabletop game that involves very few real "costs". /rant off

Back OT, I agree with others the Tervigon doesn't look to assault or shoot well. It's more of a buff unit. Which means the right approach isn't about spamming Tervigons so much as figuring out the right kind of army in which Tervigons would fit.

Shooty armies seem to be a possibility, as we discussed earlier. Some guys on Warpshadow were talking up devourer Gaunts, based on rumors of a good profile for devourers (if expensive). If true, Tervigons might be a good escort. You park the Gaunts in cover and blaze away, with the FNP there if you need it. Having a 4++, 4+ kinda helps the fragility of the T3, Sv6+ platform versus basic firepower. But who knows what the weapon profiles really are? We've had contradictory information how many times now...

Since when did tervigon appear?

I fanyone wants to see what actually IN the codex OFFICIALY then look in White Dwarf.

Mawloc does a st6 ap2 hit when it appears! By by terminators!

Steelmage99 wrote:
I was simply refering to people who feel the need to win at ALL costs. "At ALL costs" also include making the absolutly strongest list available to play against your friends and hiding behind "they can just play better", when told that it might not be the smartest thing to do.

Correct, the best part about "win at all costs" people is their predictability which generally makes them easy to beat, you know what you are going against generally and if you present some mathhammer-easy bait they will take it 90% of the time

But thats just it, the Tervigon can't just "pump out gaunts". According to rumor, it stops when any doubles comes up. So that means about a 50% chance it only gets to make *one* extra brood, or about 10 gaunts

Using them to 'buff' devilgaunts is cool. But I am guessing the Tervigon is about 150ish points. That is an expensive buff for a unit of gaunts.

Again, these make them a reasonable choice, but I don't see them as being so good that everyone is spamming them.

Well, in objective-based games I think it appears to have some value...provided those objectives aren't on the other side of the table. There aren't many (any?) MCs in the game that can actually hold objectives. Tervigons and Warriors are improvements over relying on Gaunt units for that duty. And it might bring along a unit or two of objective holders that you didn't have to pay the points for. I'm not sure Tervigons accomplish much outside of that niche, however.

I'm similarly lukewarm on Terrorfexes. Their big gun is great and fills a need. However, they supposedly cost as much as a LR, fill a valuable HS slot, and its weaponry doesn't synergize well, IMO.

It'll be interesting to see how many Tervigons and Terrorfexes end up being scratchbuilt. My gut feeling is that most players will end up defaulting back to the basic stuff, like with IG and Leman Russes and their variants.

The caveat to all of this is of course that playing even one game with the full rules would tell us so much more than our Theoryhammer.

AoD, nidzilla has nothing to do with squads as such mate.
You will find now that they are running something along these lines:

he said MID-zilla, which is different from NID-zilla. mid-zilla is using stuff like raveners and warrriors, they are the MID-level creatures.

Its a one to one ratio so at most you are going to have 3 tervigons as troop choices but then you only have 6 troop choices.

2 squads of 20 devilgaunt droppoding
2 Tervigons to stay in reserve come on board and pump out some small squads to claim home base.
2 Squads of Genestealers


Pretty damn decent and effective.