Agamemnon2 wrote:I think the new tyranids are going to absolutely rape my Guard. Sure, I'll kill a bunch of Warriors and gaunts, but I'll only get one shooting phase. And that Toxic Blood biomorph is just adding insult to injury (as well as hurting ogryns like mad). To say nothing of Genestealers being able to effortlessly deny me any hope of killing even one of them before being shredded to ribbons.

Sure, the Trygon not being able to charge out of his tunnel is good, but my Guard doesn't have anything that can reliably inflict six wounds against T6/3+ in one shooting phase. That's the equivalent of 15 lascannons, after all. And when the Trygon reaches combat, it's all over. The best thing I could hope for is that the target unit fails its Ld check after sustaining massive casualties from the bioelectric field.

Really, this entire army is a giant "Screw you!" aimed at anything without serious durability (i.e. marines). What he hell am I supposed to do? The Guard has nothing useful against Tyranids now. Nothing.

Remember these are just rumours, even if they are quite accurate (notice the "quite"). We have yet to see the weakness of 'nid armies since we are all focussing on the perks. Trust me, there WILL be one.

[Recanted.]

All I'm saying is that in every 5th edition designed codex there is an inherent weakness to that army.

Orks can't crack all round AV14 (not exactly 5th ed but designed with it in mind). Marines are decent all rounders but you pay the points for them so there are less bodies on the field. IG die to a stiff breeze and the most competitive vehicle they have (vendetta) is AV 12.

My bet is that since synapse no longer provides immunity to ID that will be our biggest weakness...vulnerability to high S weapons. And don't even get me started on force weapons!

how will us bugs handle mech though? I still see it as, endure small amount of fire, break open transports, then get shot to death next turn because we're not in CC. My opponents are almost strictly, mech tau, mech chaos marines, and mech guard. Will we have the ability to open enough (between a third and a half) of the transports to make killing infantry even possible or will it remain as current.

Turn 1-2: Advance, shoot transports, accomplish little.
Turn 1-2: take some light fire from many different weapons.
Turn 3: shoot at or assault some vehicles
Turn 3: the units just freshly broken out of vehicles are not in CC and rapidfire all the assault units to death.
Turn 4: Shoot some more transports, make a meager CC attempt with remaining units.
Turn 4: Have the freed units mop up the remaining assault units.
Turn 5: Park my MCs in cover so I have something on the board still.
Turn 5: They sit on an objective and I endure light fire.
??????
Draw or Loss

Playing against my friend's guard I see on average 6 transports, 3 other vehicles. Fighting CSM I see 4 rhinos and maybe some stuff in heavy, tau I see 3 fish and 1-2 heavies. Will we be able to open transports while advancing or is that still the end of a tyranid game, seeing 6 or more vehicles and just calling it quits in advance. Because at the moment the VC is worthless and vomits out "can't shoot" results uncontrollably like the fex had just drank a gallon of spoiled milk. Our best CC is genies for opening tanks and they do it well, but their small numbers make them very vulnerable to return rapidfire. The flying devil-tyrant does well also, but is a single unit with no wound soaks and dies to amassed fire. If we get access to a way to damage transports while advancing, I will be very happy. As it stands I run an entirely outflank/deepstrike army because rending and CC are our reliable vehicle killers, but if they turtle in the middle I get hosed.

[Recanted.]

I guess you missed the part where you get BS4 T6 Sv3+ models with S8 Assault 2 guns that don't need LOS.

[Recanted.]

S8 is beautiful for transports and most fast vehicles, and that's really all we need serious help with. The Demolishers and Land Raiders of the world will just have to be dealt with up close and personal.

lord_blackfang wrote:I guess you missed the part where you get BS4 T6 Sv3+ models with S8 Assault 2 guns that don't need LOS.

That does seem a bit hard to overlook.

I'm hoping that there is a balancing factor in there somewhere (Points cost?), but, knowing GW... who knows?

If guards can be taken as an elite choice then im saying goodbye to my once loved warriors.
I think a unit of thropes (simply for lance) and 2 of the guard will give some nice damage.


Also, people say weakness right?
Well, there is 1 match-up thats been overlooked.

New nidzilla Vs pure GK's.

All that ID means gak for the nids.

Alpharius wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:I guess you missed the part where you get BS4 T6 Sv3+ models with S8 Assault 2 guns that don't need LOS.

That does seem a bit hard to overlook.

I'm hoping that there is a balancing factor in there somewhere (Points cost?), but, knowing GW... who knows?

Maybe, maybe not. Remember that is just a crack missle with a 8% of blowing up a Rhino. So it will only be good if Nids can spam them on the cheap. For example, space wolves who can get 5 ML for 140 pts. Based on the rumors, for 150 points, it seams you get 6 ML shots, so looks like a pretty good deal. Still before MEC players wine to much, even at 6 ML shots we are still only talking less than a 50% chance of blowing up a Rhino (less if we are talking about IG chimeras). Not to mention the trade value...I just used 180 points to take out a 35 pt vehicle (still a hell of alot better than LOSING a 200 point genestealer squad to take out a 35 point rhino).

Venom Cannons traded increased vehicle damage ability for decreased ROF and therefore decreased accuracy so no big pickups there.

Zoes main weaknesses were completely overlooked and therefore still are not a good anti-tank unit. An 18" lance that can't or won't get the chance to hit is still a 18" lance that can't or won't hit.

The best tank hunting weapon looks to be the Tyranofex with its 2 Strength 10 48" range shots, however, we don't know the BS on this guy or the point costs. My first impression is that given 170 point ninja fexes, this guy is going to be very expensive and over priced for a model that only has a 27% chance of taking out a rhino (assuming BS 4).

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm at a loss imagining any kind of weakness severe enough to make the matchup in any way tolerable.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Oh wait, this is Dakka.

I seem to remember the same being said of the Ork codex, the Marine codex, Daemons, Space Wolves, and Imperial Guard. And so it goes. The circle of life on Dakka continues. The only one I didn't hear this about was Dark Angels.

I think what we're going to see is that when all the points values are out there, Nid players will have to make some decisions about what to include, because its obvious they won't be able to take a lot of everything.

Like every other codex that is 'so over the top' when its in it's rumor phase, once it hits the streets, and people play against it, and shift their tactics away from what worked before to cope, all will be right with the world.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm at a loss imagining any kind of weakness severe enough to make the matchup in any way tolerable.

Except the mass amounts of AP 1/2/3 weapons you can field?

Woo-hoo the trygon burrows up and kills a unit or two and is then blown away for being in the midst of your army. Let's not forget the BID! order.

Gandair wrote:how will us bugs handle mech though? I still see it as, endure small amount of fire, break open transports, then get shot to death next turn because we're not in CC. My opponents are almost strictly, mech tau, mech chaos marines, and mech guard. Will we have the ability to open enough (between a third and a half) of the transports to make killing infantry even possible or will it remain as current.

Thanks for bringing us back to reality mate . Seams like there are certainly a few options in the Tyranofex and Hive Guard, but a nids ability to bring them in significant numbers will be the telling part.

[Recanted.]

3 Vendettas could take out a Trygon in a turn fairly reliably. 3 melta Vet units and their Chimeras can do it, too. Yeah, you'll have to focus fire like mad to prevent it from eating something important when it gets to charge, but we're not exactly talking about an unstoppable force. Now, if you have 2 of them crop up in your lines, you might be in bad shape...

Except any "good" units the Trygon is assaulting should be in a transport (all those nice vets). So yes, you will still drop one (if there is only one) with little difficulty.

On a more important note, anyone have any ideas on how to convert units like the Tervigon out of the Tyrant/Carni sprues like GW is apparently advocating?

Budzerker wrote:On a more important note, anyone have any ideas on how to convert units like the Tervigon out of the Tyrant/Carni sprues like GW is apparently advocating?

Difficult to say until we see a pic, but i'm sure there will be many a thread on that soon!

[Recanted.]

Hilarious how the mathhammer crowd is all of a sudden howling about how they're screwed because they can't effortlessly smash enemy high-armor vehicles. I have cracked open Land Raiders with my Orks, and I've had Orks swept aside by IG because they went tank-spam on me. I want to play Tyranids because the great number of weird and wonderful bugs sound cool. Go get an ulcer about some serious problem out in the real world.

Every recent Codex has been overblown by Internet discussions, and I think the Tyranids are the same way. I have no doubt that they will change the game significantly, but I also have no doubt that they won't be as bad as people are saying. I personally don't find these rumors that impressive, but we won't know until we get accurate costs anyway. I know that I'm not particularly afraid of the Tyranids, since I think I'll be able to take them-- and if not, a few changes to my list and my tactics will undoubtedly carry me through the storm. It's important to keep a level head about these things.

Fetterkey wrote:Every recent Codex has been overblown by Internet discussions, and I think the Tyranids are the same way. I have no doubt that they will change the game significantly, but I also have no doubt that they won't be as bad as people are saying. I personally don't find these rumors that impressive, but we won't know until we get accurate costs anyway. I know that I'm not particularly afraid of the Tyranids, since I think I'll be able to take them-- and if not, a few changes to my list and my tactics will undoubtedly carry me through the storm. It's important to keep a level head about these things.

Someone is talking common sense, what are you doing here?

Trygons should not be too tough to take down. Each of my infantry blobs is 20 troops with 2 PGs and 2 ACs. 2 of these blobs of 20 should kill a trygon if I get a bring it down off. 320p killing a 150 or so point MC in one turn isn't bad.

[Recanted.]

On a more important note, anyone have any ideas on how to convert units like the Tervigon out of the Tyrant/Carni sprues like GW is apparently advocating?

I got a better idea

I just got an Exocrine and Malefactor made by Armorcast from Ebay Exocreine equals Tyrofex and Malefactor equals Tervigon And all very fluffy might I add, if fluff be known

Quick, there are some on Ebay right now

ph34r wrote:Trygons should not be too tough to take down. Each of my infantry blobs is 20 troops with 2 PGs and 2 ACs. 2 of these blobs of 20 should kill a trygon if I get a bring it down off. 320p killing a 150 or so point MC in one turn isn't bad.

Trygons apparently cost 200+, so they're even worse than it would appear.

Well, it seems like you can upgrade a Trygon to Alpha and give it the psychic pwoer that makes all enemies within 12" WS 1 BS 1. That should help it say alive.

I still see lots of knee jerking.

I'm with the lot that will say they'll shelve Lictors if they can't assault when they arrive, although it depends on points. They did gain an additional wound and we still don't know if they get the improved cover save or not. It's actually amazing how much fire a lictor with 2+ cover save can get (mass flamers hurt it but very few units can lay 2+ flamers a turn). If it's in the neighborhood of 40pts it might not be so bad, better than the 80 we pay currently and +1 to reserve rolls if you choose to use it would be nice for ensuring your reserves come in when you want to (we don't know if it has to be on board or not, i'd guess not as the IG dude that mods reserve roll doesn't need to be).

As well, the Trygon might be the same cost as 1 of MY crusherfexes but in a typical list you can field a max of 3 Trygons, but can field 9 crusherfexes. Of course at games under 2k that would be impossible as 9 crusher fexes would amount to around 1800 points leaving just enough for MAYBE a warrior alpha and then remaining points split between gaunts (lets assume 20 gaunts).

In KP games that list will own.

I could see there being very good reasons to take Carnifexes. I'm guessing the 3 gun MC in Heavy will be close to double the base of a carnifex, the heavy VC isn't THAT awful at popping tanks and the Trygon and Mawloc sure as hell don't threaten tanks outside of melee.

Hmm, I'm having visions in my head of 6 Trygons/Mawlocs as defender in Planetstrike

For those who spammed carni's back in 4th because the cool kids did it (cool used loosely as 40k gamers are NOT cool by even our standards) use them in Apoc or Planetstrike if you play such supplements. If you can't than trade them, sell them or shelve them.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Every recent Codex has been overblown by Internet discussions, and I think the Tyranids are the same way. I have no doubt that they will change the game significantly, but I also have no doubt that they won't be as bad as people are saying. I personally don't find these rumors that impressive, but we won't know until we get accurate costs anyway. I know that I'm not particularly afraid of the Tyranids, since I think I'll be able to take them-- and if not, a few changes to my list and my tactics will undoubtedly carry me through the storm. It's important to keep a level head about these things.

Someone is talking common sense, what are you doing here?

Someone should go tell this to Warseer, their groupthink is convinced this codex is the suckiest piece of suck outside Sucktown, Alabama.

I tried, but my post was deleted. Cowards. YOU HEAR THAT, WHINESEER!!! COWARDS!!!

lord_blackfang wrote:Well, it seems like you can upgrade a Trygon to Alpha and give it the psychic pwoer that makes all enemies within 12" WS 1 BS 1. That should help it say alive.

I've only seen they get "Shadow in the Warp" making Force weapons very unlikely to insta-gib it and just generally annoying psykers within 12" of it.

I'll make mine an Alpha only for the increase in shots and the fearless bubble.

Turn 1-2: Advance, shoot transports, accomplish little.
Turn 1-2: take some light fire from many different weapons.
Turn 3: shoot at or assault some vehicles
Turn 3: the units just freshly broken out of vehicles are not in CC and rapidfire all the assault units to death.
Turn 4: Shoot some more transports, make a meager CC attempt with remaining units.
Turn 4: Have the freed units mop up the remaining assault units.
Turn 5: Park my MCs in cover so I have something on the board still.
Turn 5: They sit on an objective and I endure light fire.
??????
Draw or Loss


We now have very cheap Hormagaunts and a broodlord at 50 pts. to deny attacks...
A creature that can spawn anywhere and kill stuff,things can come from there tunnels
from the sounds og things we got a lot that if used together in a swarm can take down tanks with the shooty weapons they gave us. I cant wait for the new dex.

An Inquisitor with Mystics seems like he would block many of these tricks.

the toxathrope needs to not be so tippy. I mean I haven't seen the model physically but if it's metal you know that there is going to be a lot injection chunks on it and refining to be done given citadels history of model making.

At work so don't have time to go through the whole thread.

Has anybody posted the scans of the Ravener and Trygon assmbley guides yet?

Fateweaver wrote:I still see lots of knee jerking.

Exactly.

We've got the crowd... well... just Aggy... saying that the book will destroy anything and everything, and then another crowd saying it sucks.

I thought we were over this nonsense?

This thread is holding it together A LOT better than warseers dual threads.

There of course are reactionaries in all dark corners of the internet. And this thread is no exception. They always get quiet and slink away when their doom and gloom prophecies fall flat.

What's really sad about the warseer thread is that they've got so many people complaining about some units being too good and some being too bad, but people are interchanging the 'useless' and 'overpowered' units. They don't know good from bad...

Perhaps my early take might soothe some bug players that have reverted to instinctive behavior.

The one truth is that this book has been re-invented. The old ways of shooting first and charging if an opportunity presents itself are gone. Start swallowing that pill if you played nidzilla. Drop pods really just flipped the functionailty of the carnifex. And since nid players aren't used to the force multiplier that is 'protected' deep strike, then a lot of people are looking at ranges of shots and strengths of guns without the whole picture.

HIVE TYRANT- until we see base cost and upgrade cost there isn't anything to talk about here. 18" synapse, nasty shadow of the warp, possible wings, possible drop pod, other psychic powers that we've only seen poorly translated explanations... Certainly some potential here.

TERVIGON- This one is getting a lot of "too good" calls.. If the termie spawning ability has been costed into the model, and you roll an early double, then the thing is overcosted. If its death ability just devastates the majority of your troops when it triggers, then he isn't going to be a stable tourney unit. He sure does sound like a lot of fun.

HORROR- Really no tangible info on this thing. Is it a gargoyle upgrade? is it an IC? points cost? abilities? statline?

HIVE GUARD - How can people be complaining about nid anti-transport? This unit that is rumored to be able to pod into play, can take side shots on arrival from out of LOS and has an excellent survivability and excellent ballistic skill. This seems like more than adequate support for a primarily assault based force. Demon players would KILL for this unit.

ZOANTHROPE - ASsault armies don't even need built in ranged land raider kill to function. Just access to consistent trasport/fast gunship kill. But we are getting it anyway. And it can be podded in for alpha strike capability. I think the paradigm is shifting extremely. You don't want to be far away, nids are going to flood special weapon carrying armies with target saturation. Get everything you have in their face...

PYROVORE - not enough info on this thing. But it should be noted that there seems to be an MC of some variety in every slot.

YMGARL GENESTEALERS - Don't these guys sound good? But not overpowerd? I think so. How cool...

LICTOR - A great many people want the arrival turn charge, but if a trade is necessary (and it is) then I take this new type of deployment over arrival assault in a heartbeat. When tied to area terrain as deployment, canny players would just fill every inch of area terrain near their deployment with models for an automatic deep strike mishap. Even if you managed to find a spot and land it, you were rewarded with a dangerous terrain check that could cost you half of your wounds.... If he keeps super-stealth, then being able to drop im, accident free behind a screened cover save, take some 2+ saves, then charge on the next turn sounds about right. And if you can take 3 in a brood then thats plenty of offensive capability for the slot.

GENESTEALERS - No one seems to distraught by their free infiltrate and price decrease.

HORMAGAUNTS - yet another solid troops choice that I can't believe anyone would discount. Their interaction with hive tyrant powers, synapse, and their dirt cheapness, with access to a particularly devastating cc upgrade make them a very attractive option. I guess some nid players will understand fully when a 20 man hormagaunt unit with toxin sacs charges their freshly arrived trygon.

TERMAGAUNTS - seems like a pretty lateral shift. one point cost decrease but a 6" range increase and a potential loss of living ammo don't give me any heart palpatations, either for or against.

RIPPERS - admittedly nerfed... I always thought that all swarms should have immune to instant death. It doesn't follow logic that a single high strength shot would kill them all, and in game design, the swarm is most likely to be a candidate for frustrating tarpit. Oh well.

WARRIORS - There is a pretty spirited back and forth about the playability of the warriors. The side stating that loss of ID makes them very fragile is correct, but the side saying wait and see has a lot of things going for it. First off, warriors are troops now, not competing with killer elite units (the dakkafex). If all they did was survive, now they have something to show for that. It is troop based synpase. That is quite important as well. Lastly, there are multiple VERY important units in the nid army that are T4 IDable... raveners, warriors, zoanthropes, possible hive guard... You know what else strength 8 is good at? Wounding T6. So what you have here with this army is an absolute overload on targets that need to be killed with high strength weaponry. Sneak in some genestealers and hormagaunts to test the remaining anti-infatry dice, and you have the possiblity of a very overloaded gunline.

GARGOYLES - I'm hearing a lot of "too good's" about these guys too which is just silly. Better than before, fieldable, but, much like the storm boy... waaaay too much hype about their ability to be multi-purpose and survivable.

FLYING RIPPERS - A not good unit with wings... which is too bad.

SPORE MINES - Ok, the naked spore mines seem to be such an overlooked options, with massive potential. Deploying spore mines after deployment zones are chsoen but before deployment allows you to block off entire areas for models to set up. Sure they can shoot you once the game starts, but until the game starts I'm certain that they can't place any models on top of your mines. So 14 tank IG armies are going to have a really hard time finding good spots to set up their choo choo trains with tiny annoying models just sitting right where they want to be. And lootas are going to be really frustrated when the one or two place where they can deploy in cover are already occupied.

FLYING WARRIORS? - see warriors

HARPY - If the rumored statline is true, this model looks to be the ticket for guys who want to spam MCs,, but doesn't really blow me away in terms of cut throat competitiveness, we'll see of course. It does look playable for sure, and could possibly be great with the right support surrounding it. That sounds like a well designed unit... right?

RAVENERS - Look, if you look at what this unit has going for it on paper and then look at its one big weakness, it becomes a very volitile unit. First off, deep strike, every model armed with flamer, beast, re-rollable attacks, 3 wounds, enter through trygon tunnel... that list alone shold drop some jaws. I think the way this unit doesn't end up costing 60 points per model is that it has a vulnerability to instant death. That helps balance it and bring it into line. When you choose this unit you get a combination of some of the most devastating abilities in 40k (flamers, beasts, unrestricted re-rolls). But you'll probably want to support it with other things that don't want to get shot by strength 8. Makes some list design decisions more difficult. Sounds like good game design.

TRYGON - This guy seems good, very promising. Expensive, but enough wounds to justify it likely, a possible synergistic combo in the right army. But low strength. Balanced at first glance. Definitely the "look at me" unit in the book. Many will commit too much to their army being based on this guy.

TYRANOFEX - This guy looks like last years model. Fexes don't look like they are priced to walk slowly across the table and shoot a couple guns. At rumored 250, this would be a great planetstrike defender, and might possibly find its way into a shooty minded nid list, but I don't think this is what fexes are for.

BIOVORE - I'm not impressed, strength 4 ap 4? I guess its ok, I would hope that they would be indirect to cause pinning and to avoid screen cover, and they might be (can't see in the sheet). I think its a fine unit, but in a competitve slot.

MAWLOC - see trygon, but cheaper and with less capabilities. Also very competitive, but lacking in the strength department.

CARNIFEX - Ah yes, the other "unplayable" unit. 200 points gets you a monstrous creature in a drop pod, that has 5 re-rollable strength 9 (or strength 10 for a few points more) attacks. Look, I know you can get a trygon with deep strike for 200. But that deep strike does not come with mishap protection that the spore pod probably will, and most importantly, the trygon is looking at strength 6+2d6 to get inside that land raider. The amount of vehicle flipping that a fex can do is very intense. And there are some rumors of bio-plasma becoming a plasma cannon, the fex also has access to crushing claws. It is waaaay too early to call DOA on the fex. You have got to respect that strength 9/10, and his unique access to biomorphs that the trygon doesn't get, most importantly, the ability to purchase a drop pod.



I'm sure I forgot some units. Basically, as a nid player getting ramped up for this new book. It looks like it is CRAZY different. A lot of veteran players seem to be dreading the inevitable changing of the guard. If it wasn't for new codexes to shake up your army, how bored would you get playing with the same models day in and day out? I am excited as hell to get my hands on a codex and really start figuring out what is what with this new book. It does NOT look weak, from my perspective as a successful mech guard player. It also doesn't look unbeatable. More than anything I love the fact that there is a variety of enticing units and I expect very little 'spam' coming from this book, both in peoples basements and at the tables of a tourney.

I wonder why crushing claws required the I nerf. If they simple add D3 attacks rather than replace the 4 base attacks with d6 like the old ones would have, it would be a better buy immediately. But if a carnifex is already I1 still, then why should it even have a I nerf unless there is some sort of I boost the fex can get somehow.

To quote H it sure doesn't look to have been Jervisified. That is the baffling thing. Since the start of 5th people have complained about armies getting more streamlined and less options, aka games have gotten faster to play. When the IG codex came out that introduced some new units and added a plethora of rules. It was praised by some, abhorred by others. SW codex did the same but with even more special rules and wargear. Tyranids looks to be the most complex codex to date and people are complaining about that.

That is the baffling part. "It'll slow gameplay down." If you are pressed for time, like at a game store and you know you have 2-3 hours till store close than don't play a huge points game. A 1500 pt game SHOULD take less than 2 hours to play. My group can crank out 3k in 3 - 3.5 hours (non Apoc).

I'm sure when the book is in my hands, either via illegal download of the store copy and then eventually the real deal upon release I'll get a bigger picture.

It looks to me like Tyranids have basically been not only shaken up but have been ripped asunder and put back together. The biggest complaint I see, especially over on 'Seer, is that you can't sit back beyond 3' and reliably pop tanks and transports. I say good riddance to that theory. I don't see the 'nid bioguns being any less dangerous than they are currently. Some stats may have been reduced but the VC will still kill infantry (actually better than it does now) and the S6 Heavy BS still wounds on 2's just like it did at S8.

I have a fairly balanced 'Nid force right now and for me personally I don't see this slapping my army too hard. Some units I won't buy simply as I have no desire to field them and some I'll buy and field simply because the model appeals to me. The Trygon and Mawloc may not prove to be "must haves" in competitive gaming but for me personally they are too damn hot looking to not field. Hive Guard could be a very nice transport popper. Effective 30" range with their S8 2 shot guns. 6 krak equivalents a turn at BS4 that don't need line of sight and can move and fire. Rumored at 50pts each; T6 with 3 wounds and 3+ save.

Like the players who took 3 elite and 3 heavy fexes. Yeah it sucks that you can't use them but odds are you ran 3 dakkafexes as elite so that is ONE brood of them. Your heavies might suffer if all 3 are different but if that's the case reweaponize them or don't use them. Elites have so many wonderful toys coming up for them.

There aren't many armies that Tyranids won't be able to handle past January. Heavy VC can actually wreck tanks and transports; Zoanthropes can scare tanks and with their 3+ invul can actually exchange shots with most tanks and probably come out on top; drop pods for 'nids; list goes on and on.

We have to stop looking at Tyranids as they play currently and look at how they'll play after January 16th. The army will play nothing like it does now and that is a good thing.

Wher are my strangleweb rules? I have a brood of 32 of the buggers and want my 32 flame templates!!

Or at least confirmation that 'gaunts can't get them in 32 strong blocks....

Oldgrue wrote:Wher are my strangleweb rules? I have a brood of 32 of the buggers and want my 32 flame templates!!

Or at least confirmation that 'gaunts can't get them in 32 strong blocks....

Rumours point to 1 per every 10 Gaunts.

Railguns wrote:I wonder why crushing claws required the I nerf. If they simple add D3 attacks rather than replace the 4 base attacks with d6 like the old ones would have, it would be a better buy immediately. But if a carnifex is already I1 still, then why should it even have a I nerf unless there is some sort of I boost the fex can get somehow.

Keeps it from being a no-brainer.

Standard loadout is 2x Talons. 5 Attacks on the charge at I3 (4 if you buy adrenaline) at S9(10 with adrenal) rerolling ALL misses or 8 attacks on the charge, rerolling just 1's (assuming you keep one set of Talons) but going at I1. Letting you choose to either kill infantry and swing simultaneous to most walkers (who can hurt it) or increasing your killing power against things that can't hit back rendering the I boost pointless. Going with Claws gives carni great flexibility in melee. If you must strike before a fist/thammer/chainfist than don't use the claws and swing at I4; if you are fighting something that can't hit back or that would have a hard time wounding take the extra attacks and go at I1.

Lookin at the rumours, I'm thinking that my army will look like this:

HQ:
Tyrant w. Gaurd. May be podding in.

Elites:
Hive Gaurd. Lots of Hive gaurd look good. They look like they could be highly effective at popping transports and fast vehicles.

Troops:
Warriors.
Genestealers, a unit or two.
Hormagaunts, with toxin sacks. Two or Three big units.
Termagants, a good sized unit to provide warriors with a cover save.

Fast:
Gargoyles. They look like they could be a valuable fast respose unit.
Raveners also deserve a good look.
Spore mines: If they are cheap enough, they could be a valuable disruption unit.

Heavy:
One or two Trygons. These will likely be alphas, unless the upgrade looks to pricey. May use Podding Carnifex's instead.

Good post, Shep. Some thoughts of mine...

Shep wrote:This thread is holding it together A LOT better than warseers dual threads.

Yeah, so much for Dakka being the dour place. I'm scratching my head about a number of things, but there's no question there's good stuff in with the not-so-good.

HIVE TYRANT- until we see base cost and upgrade cost there isn't anything to talk about here. 18" synapse, nasty shadow of the warp, possible wings, possible drop pod, other psychic powers that we've only seen poorly translated explanations... Certainly some potential here.

I think dropping these guys in with pods and the Unspeakable Horror ability will be a solid choice. They're harder to deal with than ever.

HIVE GUARD - How can people be complaining about nid anti-transport? This unit that is rumored to be able to pod into play, can take side shots on arrival from out of LOS and has an excellent survivability and excellent ballistic skill. This seems like more than adequate support for a primarily assault based force. Demon players would KILL for this unit.

These guys look to be the star of the codex, IMO.

HORMAGAUNTS - yet another solid troops choice that I can't believe anyone would discount. Their interaction with hive tyrant powers, synapse, and their dirt cheapness, with access to a particularly devastating cc upgrade make them a very attractive option. I guess some nid players will understand fully when a 20 man hormagaunt unit with toxin sacs charges their freshly arrived trygon.

Spammed poison on these guys makes them really dangerous to anything with T value. C'tan giving you problems? Send in Hormagaunts with toxin sacs...a medium-sized brood ought make it go "poof" without breaking a sweat.

If there's cheap access to poison across the army as rumored, I think that could turn out to be a big deal.

WARRIORS - There is a pretty spirited back and forth about the playability of the warriors. The side stating that loss of ID makes them very fragile is correct, but the side saying wait and see has a lot of things going for it. First off, warriors are troops now, not competing with killer elite units (the dakkafex). If all they did was survive, now they have something to show for that. It is troop based synpase. That is quite important as well. Lastly, there are multiple VERY important units in the nid army that are T4 IDable... raveners, warriors, zoanthropes, possible hive guard... You know what else strength 8 is good at? Wounding T6. So what you have here with this army is an absolute overload on targets that need to be killed with high strength weaponry. Sneak in some genestealers and hormagaunts to test the remaining anti-infatry dice, and you have the possiblity of a very overloaded gunline.

At first I blanched at the extra W instead of extra T. But I got over it. It looks like Deathspitters will be okay (like the current ones better, but hey), and I like the idea of having a unit that can sit on an objective, engage the enemy at range and still have something to say if enemy assaulters try to seize said objective.

GARGOYLES - I'm hearing a lot of "too good's" about these guys too which is just silly. Better than before, fieldable, but, much like the storm boy... waaaay too much hype about their ability to be multi-purpose and survivable.

They're speed for speed's sake and nothing else. They don't really bring any pain, don't have any durability and can't seize objectives. Meh in my book, even at half the price.

Understand that the thinking on Warseer was generally that Gargoyles were *awesome* at 12 pts per, it was just that the price of minis holding them back from being used. Umm...no.

SPORE MINES - Ok, the naked spore mines seem to be such an overlooked options, with massive potential. Deploying spore mines after deployment zones are chsoen but before deployment allows you to block off entire areas for models to set up. Sure they can shoot you once the game starts, but until the game starts I'm certain that they can't place any models on top of your mines. So 14 tank IG armies are going to have a really hard time finding good spots to set up their choo choo trains with tiny annoying models just sitting right where they want to be. And lootas are going to be really frustrated when the one or two place where they can deploy in cover are already occupied.

Yeah, the predeployment deployment is a nice touch.

TYRANOFEX - This guy looks like last years model. Fexes don't look like they are priced to walk slowly across the table and shoot a couple guns. At rumored 250, this would be a great planetstrike defender, and might possibly find its way into a shooty minded nid list, but I don't think this is what fexes are for.

I'm not sold on this guy. Seems like a ton of points for that 1 average hit per turn with the big gun. Yeah, there's not much comparable in the list. But 250 pts? And the rest of the guns don't seem to have any synergy.

BIOVORE - I'm not impressed, strength 4 ap 4? I guess its ok, I would hope that they would be indirect to cause pinning and to avoid screen cover, and they might be (can't see in the sheet). I think its a fine unit, but in a competitve slot.

I initially didn't like them, but have since come around, sorta. They're actually pretty darn good against infantry out in the open. Yeah...I know. But against that, they'd kick some booty.

Unfortunately, perhaps too many units in this codex have been designed to kick the butts of footsloggers in the open. C'est la vie.

CARNIFEX - Ah yes, the other "unplayable" unit. 200 points gets you a monstrous creature in a drop pod, that has 5 re-rollable strength 9 (or strength 10 for a few points more) attacks. Look, I know you can get a trygon with deep strike for 200. But that deep strike does not come with mishap protection that the spore pod probably will, and most importantly, the trygon is looking at strength 6+2d6 to get inside that land raider. The amount of vehicle flipping that a fex can do is very intense. And there are some rumors of bio-plasma becoming a plasma cannon, the fex also has access to crushing claws. It is waaaay too early to call DOA on the fex. You have got to respect that strength 9/10, and his unique access to biomorphs that the trygon doesn't get, most importantly, the ability to purchase a drop pod.

I'll admit I was really scratching my head when S6 was the rumor. I feel a lot better about them at S9.

I'm sure I forgot some units. Basically, as a nid player getting ramped up for this new book. It looks like it is CRAZY different. A lot of veteran players seem to be dreading the inevitable changing of the guard. If it wasn't for new codexes to shake up your army, how bored would you get playing with the same models day in and day out? I am excited as hell to get my hands on a codex and really start figuring out what is what with this new book.

I was on record saying I wanted to see it all blown up. And I sure got it, LOL. I'm not sure I'm 100% in agreement with the new vision. But I'll deal, and I'll make it work. I already have an idea for modeling spore pods that I'll share with everyone once I get it all figured out.

Yeah the warseer threads are sad. Too many people missing the forest for the trees, both unit and army wise.

Tervigon is a perfect example. The spawn ability is not the main reason to take em, yet that is all people are on about. Yes you'll be lucky to get more then one spawn off. So wait till late game or imminent death to use it. I look at the ability to grant feel no pain to unit of choice and counter attack to all terms in6" as much more important. The spawning is just a nice backup option for objective missions. The death drawback is the only thing holding me back from calling them competitive

Normally dakka makes me feel emo, right now that honor is reserved for 'Seer. Thank the Lord "The Dude" has all latest rumorage on page 1 of the 'nid rumor mark iv thread so that I can just take quick peeks without further subjugation to that whine hole.

Right now the only thing I want to see are points. Just knowing what I do of the rules is enough for me.

i know this is kind disrupting the conversation at hand, but how is everyone feeling about the carnifex? i really love them, and have yet to get one, is the T5 really going to make them uncompetitive?

A single Leman Russ Demolisher or Space Marine Vindicator could take out an entire brood of Carnifexes in one shot. (I hate the term brood being applied to a group of Carnifexes. Making units of Carnifexes cheapens the concept). Any S10 stuff, really, will love you if you take plenty of T5 carnifexes.

Guys,

I only see one poster who said that this (rumored) codex was over powered and no posters who have said this (rumored) codex is crap.

I have seen a few posters wisely and reasonably bring up points about addressing the need to deal with transports and wondering how the (rumored) codex will pan out in this regard, probably because thier opponents use alot of Mech...go figure.

As I have already said, the Hive Guard seam to fill this niche out (if the rumors are true). Sound but not over powering. Don't know as I agree with the DS philosophy, as if they end up being your best chance of taking down mech (with tyranofexes being 250 points this seams likely) and given their survivability, I don't know why you would want to chance them coming in late in the game. Just my opinion of course, but I personally want to shut down mobility as early in the game as possible and a 30" threat (move 6" and shoot 24") range is pretty adequate for the job.

So let's stop getting carried away here and striking out at anyone with a defended opinion just because SEER went overboard. If someone posts an opinion you don't agree with then explain why you don't agree with it (like Shep did) rather than whining about whiners.

In regards to Biovores, I thought they were barrage. That in itself will likely negate alot of situations that grant cover. Nevertheless, big pie plates means lots of hits, more wounds, and more failed saves...something that nid players should be familiar with. Might not be as powerful as 3rd ed (being poisoned and all). But it is a good start.

Now what I am really waiting on is news of deathspitters. Got too many double deathspitter warriors that I converted whom are sweating on the sidelines.

Railguns wrote:A single Leman Russ Demolisher or Space Marine Vindicator could take out an entire brood of Carnifexes in one shot. (I hate the term brood being applied to a group of Carnifexes. Making units of Carnifexes cheapens the concept). Any S10 stuff, really, will love you if you take plenty of T5 carnifexes.

well, that doesn't really answer my question...

most of the rumors i've seen say t6. one guy on warseer posted t5 and the wailing posters keep repeating it like it's gospel despite most every other rumor leaker saying t6.

Shep wrote: CARNIFEX - Ah yes, the other "unplayable" unit. 200 points gets you a monstrous creature in a drop pod, that has 5 re-rollable strength 9 (or strength 10 for a few points more) attacks. Look, I know you can get a trygon with deep strike for 200. But that deep strike does not come with mishap protection that the spore pod probably will, and most importantly, the trygon is looking at strength 6+2d6 to get inside that land raider. The amount of vehicle flipping that a fex can do is very intense. And there are some rumors of bio-plasma becoming a plasma cannon, the fex also has access to crushing claws. It is waaaay too early to call DOA on the fex. You have got to respect that strength 9/10, and his unique access to biomorphs that the trygon doesn't get, most importantly, the ability to purchase a drop pod.

Good points but don't forget that that is alot of str 6 + 2d6 attacks going against that LR, kinda like the Flyrant that back in 4th was commonly used to hunt LR. Not as good as a carnie, but I am guessing it could get the job done.

Right now, we don't know what all biomorphs are included in that hefty 170 pt price tag other than it is a ninja fex with effectively preferred enemy; so as you said, too early to call on this unit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We've got the crowd... well... just Aggy... saying that the book will destroy anything and everything, and then another crowd saying it sucks.

I thought we were over this nonsense?

Which I'm happy to recant here, now, and immediately.

By all means.

Done. Now kindly stop bullying me, you horrible little man. I was wrong, I admit it freely.

The pole.

Remove it.

Sorry, I don't know any Poles. The closest I have are a Lithuanian, two Danes and a fellow backpacking somewhere in Croatia.

I'm a Slovenian, if that helps. But I do not wish to be removed.

I'm curious about the rumors that each Termagaunt brood lets you take a Tervigon as a Troops choice. So 3 broods plus 3 MCs spitting out 3 more broods on the first turn, plus the possibility of spewing out some extra ones in the followup turns. Certainly makes objective holding into a far more interesting little dance. Even if they all sputter after the first birth, that's still 9 Troops units on the table.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I still see lots of knee jerking.

Exactly.

We've got the crowd... well... just Aggy... saying that the book will destroy anything and everything, and then another crowd saying it sucks.

I thought we were over this nonsense?

This happens around every codex and it still surprises you that gakkers and naggers are bemoaning a product yet to be released?

Nobody here is surprised at all, so that comment makes precious little sense.

From what I've heard, tyrannofex sounds like the kind of unit to pod in next to an isolated unit and shoot the bejessuses out of it with that rumoured 20 shot gun

Shep wrote:

HIVE TYRANT- until we see base cost and upgrade cost there isn't anything to talk about here. 18" synapse, nasty shadow of the warp, possible wings, possible drop pod, other psychic powers that we've only seen poorly translated explanations... Certainly some potential here.

The basic Hive Tyrant is around 130-140 points if I recall correctly.

LICTOR - A great many people want the arrival turn charge, but if a trade is necessary (and it is) then I take this new type of deployment over arrival assault in a heartbeat. When tied to area terrain as deployment, canny players would just fill every inch of area terrain near their deployment with models for an automatic deep strike mishap. Even if you managed to find a spot and land it, you were rewarded with a dangerous terrain check that could cost you half of your wounds.... If he keeps super-stealth, then being able to drop im, accident free behind a screened cover save, take some 2+ saves, then charge on the next turn sounds about right. And if you can take 3 in a brood then thats plenty of offensive capability for the slot.

As far as Iremember the lictor loses super stealth. Only rulebook stealth. And isn't bound to terrain. It's 65 points now and has his flesh hook shooting power. Hit and run is still in. The Death leaper is a bit more expensive ~150 I think but can just disappear when outside of 1" of enemies. And can "stalk" a single enemy model (chosen before game starts) that get a malus of -2 or -3 to LD. Funny other stuff, will definitely use it.

HORMAGAUNTS - yet another solid troops choice that I can't believe anyone would discount. Their interaction with hive tyrant powers, synapse, and their dirt cheapness, with access to a particularly devastating cc upgrade make them a very attractive option. I guess some nid players will understand fully when a 20 man hormagaunt unit with toxin sacs charges their freshly arrived trygon.

Combined with the "ancient enemy" skill of the hive tyrant (25p. I think), they can get nasty preferred enemy. And for 6 points are rather solid now imo.

SPORE MINES - Ok, the naked spore mines seem to be such an overlooked options, with massive potential. Deploying spore mines after deployment zones are chsoen but before deployment allows you to block off entire areas for models to set up. Sure they can shoot you once the game starts, but until the game starts I'm certain that they can't place any models on top of your mines. So 14 tank IG armies are going to have a really hard time finding good spots to set up their choo choo trains with tiny annoying models just sitting right where they want to be. And lootas are going to be really frustrated when the one or two place where they can deploy in cover are already occupied.

They are, I think 10 points each and you can field up to 9 in one FOS.

Harpy costs, I think, 145 points.

TRYGON - This guy seems good, very promising. Expensive, but enough wounds to justify it likely, a possible synergistic combo in the right army. But low strength. Balanced at first glance. Definitely the "look at me" unit in the book. Many will commit too much to their army being based on this guy.

Sure it's expensive for 200 points base, but with 6W I thought about giving it regeneration. With 3 or 4 dice, there can be some sixes (mhhh...lucky sixes).

BIOVORE - I'm not impressed, strength 4 ap 4? I guess its ok, I would hope that they would be indirect to cause pinning and to avoid screen cover, and they might be (can't see in the sheet). I think its a fine unit, but in a competitve slot.

They are freakin cheap however. three costing 75 points or somewhat like that. 3 S4 Ap4 large blast are not nice against hordes...

CARNIFEX - Ah yes, the other "unplayable" unit. 200 points gets you a monstrous creature in a drop pod, that has 5 re-rollable strength 9 (or strength 10 for a few points more) attacks. Look, I know you can get a trygon with deep strike for 200. But that deep strike does not come with mishap protection that the spore pod probably will, and most importantly, the trygon is looking at strength 6+2d6 to get inside that land raider. The amount of vehicle flipping that a fex can do is very intense. And there are some rumors of bio-plasma becoming a plasma cannon, the fex also has access to crushing claws. It is waaaay too early to call DOA on the fex. You have got to respect that strength 9/10, and his unique access to biomorphs that the trygon doesn't get, most importantly, the ability to purchase a drop pod.

Damn, I don't recall the stats for bio-plasma, but it was 12" and I remember being somewhat impressed after reading its description.

Hope that helped.

Greets
Schepp himself

Shep wrote:
HORMAGAUNTS - yet another solid troops choice that I can't believe anyone would discount. Their interaction with hive tyrant powers, synapse, and their dirt cheapness, with access to a particularly devastating cc upgrade make them a very attractive option. I guess some nid players will understand fully when a 20 man hormagaunt unit with toxin sacs charges their freshly arrived trygon.
TERMAGAUNTS - seems like a pretty lateral shift. one point cost decrease but a 6" range increase and a potential loss of living ammo don't give me any heart palpatations, either for or against.

Rumour has both units having lost fleet but Hormagaunts get to run faster. I am sitting here wondering if I should be putting Fleshborers or Talons on my Gaunt bodies? Is swapping the gun going to be worth an extra attack and re-rolling ones. Helps in a protracted combat. I expect we will have to wait for the Codex and peoples play style to know for sure...

Also Termagants allow you to take Tervigon as a Troop Unit. I can see being a scoring MC being even more useful than its ability to poop out extra gaunts. Tervigon also seem to be the replacement for Elite Dakkafexs. It seems most of our old Elite has moved to Troops to make room for new units.

If using the Tyrants Preferred Enemy then the Talons become even less useful as I do not think you can re-roll the dice twice. I am liking the idea of having a first wave of Gargoyles, followed by the Tyrants and finally Gaunts. Hive Guard and Zoanthropes give the army some range and the now really cheap Genestealers get to flank. Not sure I want any heavy units.

I believe the Hormies still have fleet and get "quick" which allows them to roll 3 dice to run (I believe 3, maybe 2)- they really become a major turn 2 assault threat if true.

Personally I can't wait... my all Genestealer & Spore mine army just became a HELL of a lot more dangerous. the possibility of putting close to 100 'stealers on the board, ALL DS/infiltrating? and still have room for a load of spore mines and some shooting? YES please!!! Hell, I'm even thinking of using the Alpha Warrior as my HQ and using the Inquisitor scale 'Stealer, or one of the old Patriarchs.

So far thinking this: a Alpha Warrior, max 'stealers (both troops and the Elites), spore mines and a Mawloc (maybe 2 if I can squeeze it in). Will some army shoot me to hell, sure- but the look of terror from a marine player at close to 100 genestealers running at him will be well worth

P.S.- since I lost my damn 4th ed. dex in the move, does anyone remember if Stealers get/still get the biomorph that would allow rending?

Genestealers have rending automatically because they come with rending claws in 4th ed.

Im excited about all the changes that are happening to the book but im wary of a few of the rumors if they turn out to be true then I feel it could unbalance a few things. Like the lifeleech rumor to me it seems a tad cheesy, if certain units can take it then they will become nigh indestructible I wouldnt want a tyrant just trundling back and forth sucking wounds out of enemies to survive a whole game it would be such a waste and would become infuriating for other players.

And the harpy a flying monstrous creature raining death down in the form of spore mines and spike shots seems cool but there comes a point when being able to blow the enemy to hell from above is a bit much. But honestly I have no idea if any of the rumors even have a grain of truth to them so we will all have to wait for the codex to see and to make our own judgements.

I can't see D3 S3 hits becoming game-breaking even if they do ignore armor. It's a decent/good power that I'll probably use, but it's not anywhere near broken. If you can use life leach in while in combat, assault armies without terminators will be hard-pressed to bring your Tyrant down, but a model that expensive should be a beast to get rid of.

Seriously, though, do you really care if your opponent freaks about your ~200 point model being hard to kill? Again, at that point cost, it had better be. There's also the fairly simple solution of just gunning the thing down in one turn. With all the melta and mobility around these days, that shouldn't be a terribly difficult task to accomplish.

edit: clarity

Like I said, the power isn't nearly destructive enough to make the critter immortal. Regenerate is still awful and no doubt overpriced because it can still only give back 1 wound a turn and then only on a 6. There is already plenty of firepower to take out monstrous creatures and a Hive Tyrant doing a zubat impression won't live much longer than one without.

I have 9 T6 3+ wounds to keep my tyrant safe.

If Tyrant Guard retain "living wall" and don't count as MC's then there will be lots of screens and lots of cover to make those 9 wounds hard to take off.

If rumor is true about 5+ invul as standard on Tyrant (and right now there is conflict as to wether or not Tyrant gets it) that will also help him shake off the occasional melta/las/plasma wound.

Railguns wrote:Like I said, the power isn't nearly destructive enough to make the critter immortal. Regenerate is still awful and no doubt overpriced because it can still only give back 1 wound a turn and then only on a 6. There is already plenty of firepower to take out monstrous creatures and a Hive Tyrant doing a zubat impression won't live much longer than one without.

Who said that the regeneration rule is still like that?

Greets
Schepp himself

Well these are awesome i keep hearing conflicting rumours about what gets what and what it does but i am going to find out soon^^
way it looks i may go for a mix for most stufff as i hate spaming stuff i don't what 3 trygons even if there super hard i get one and one mawloc and 3 fexs probs
one qusetion if the drop pod thing can only conitan 1 MC does that mean fexs have to go in ones or not pod????

Fateweaver wrote:Updated by Original Poster on Seer and translated. Note that Carnis ARE indeed S9 so we can all quit crying now. Cleaned up by yours truly.

Regeneration:
At the start of each turn the model recovers a wound on a 6.

I wonder what those sting blasters are supposed to be.

oldone wrote:Well these are awesome i keep hearing conflicting rumours about what gets what and what it does but i am going to find out soon^^
way it looks i may go for a mix for most stufff as i hate spaming stuff i don't what 3 trygons even if there super hard i get one and one mawloc and 3 fexs probs
one qusetion if the drop pod thing can only conitan 1 MC does that mean fexs have to go in ones or not pod????

Kudos for not spamming stuff.

If your Carnifex brood contains one (1) carnifex, then it can use a spore pod. So a max of 3 dropping carnifexes then your heavies are full.

Greets
Schepp himself


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Railguns wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Updated by Original Poster on Seer and translated. Note that Carnis ARE indeed S9 so we can all quit crying now. Cleaned up by yours truly.

Regeneration:
At the start of each turn the model recovers a wound on a 6.

I wonder what those sting blasters are supposed to be.

Mh...I read that for each wound previously lost in the game you roll a D6 and for every 6 that shows up you get a wound back.

Conflicting sources maybe? But I've seen it in the printed out codex. Maybe the translation was fishy.

Greets
Schepp himself

If it were a dice for each lost wound, it would be better. But still, the max you would be able to roll would be 3 dice before the creature was just flat out killed, so even then I wonder how often it would turn over an extra wound.

Is there any credence to the rumor that the character Zoanthrope that can give itself extra wounds by blowing away enemy models has to spend 3 wounds to actually fire the power each turn? If that were true, and your opponent managed to take it to 3 or less wounds before it fired, it would never get to fire. Sounds like a risky investment if there were any.

Sting blaster could be the Spike Rifle.

The sting blaster looks like the worst weapon in the list whose only saving grace is S5, but at one shot, no ap and 12" range you have to wonder just what model this thing is supposed to be mounted on. If anything, the spike rifle should be the relatively long range with better ap weapon of the gaunt armory.

Has anyone else noticed that the Devourer didn't just get nerfed, but made into a near useless little peashooter? 2 shots at S3 and no ap? Are they really that pissed that people actually used devourers in 4th? Did it honestly deserve such obviously hateful treatment?


Edit: Sorry, ap6. Big difference....

Regen now wouldn't be so horrible if it didn't cost 30pts. For a 1 in 6 chance per wound it should be at most 10 pts.

Hope it's a little more sensibly priced in the new dex.

Considering what I've heard about the unit pricing in the book, GW seems to think that Tyranid monstrous creatures should cost as much as Land Raiders and Monoliths. It doesn't bode well for biomorph pricing.

BrookM wrote:Sting blaster could be the Spike Rifle.

Statwise that sounds like the flesh-hook gun the lictor uses. But, as I said previously, I think it has S6 and assault 2.

Regeneration is 25 points for anyone I think. Oh, and wings are 60 or 65 for tyrants.

Greets
Schepp himself

Good freaking lord. ~65 point wings? Wow. That's so comically overpriced it's almost tragic.
At that cost I'm surprised they aren't trying to sell mycetic spore pod models now that wings cost almost as much as a current base carnifex.

According to someone on Warpshadow, the Deathspitter isn't an S5 AP5 blast but a S5 AP5 Assault 3 gun. :( I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but that's kinda disappointing.

Re: Raveners, they're not bad vs. MEq kitted out with ST/RC and poison. That's hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, then wounding on 4s, rerolling failed wounds...with rending. Not bad.

Disregard

A blast weapon that's been a blast weapon as long as it has has existed (AFAIK) suddenly becoming a 3 shot gun for no reason at all? That's either an Arby or bunk.

It sounds like the pendulum has swung rather hard on our MC's. Carnifexes were a little undercosted, but putting them at 170, base, is a bit absurd. 60+ points for wings? I thought they were too expensive at 40. The other things sound overcosted, too. Oh well, good thing I prefer running a swarm army studded with a couple big'uns.

The deathspitter statline is a bit disappointing, but I figured they weren't going to allow units of S6 blasts any longer. To me, the most disappointing part about the change is the range reduction. The extra 6" make a big difference. The loss of horde control resulting from the blast-->3 shots is annoying, but it sounds like offing weak stuff is cake for Tyranids now. The extra shots give us a bit of desperation coverage against really light vehicles, so I'll grudgingly call it an effective wash, given that the strength reduction was inevitable.


I agree about the Raveners. They sound pretty nasty if kitted out properly. Warriors might be similarly tough.

One thing I'd really like to know is the points costs on Rippers. I've always wanted them to be good. Swarms are just awesome. Rumors that they're "not very expensive" and that they can Deep Strike are very interesting, indeed. So what constitutes "not expensive?" 8 points? 7? Less? If they're that cheap, it'll be really tough for me to resist taking a whole bunch of them and dropping them on my opponent. Yeah, they die like crazy without the no ID thing, but big blasts can only take care of so much. If nothing else, they'd be a great tarpit while the rest of your army closed in. If they're still up at the 10 point mark, I don't see any scenario in which taking 2 Hormagaunts instead would not be better.

Schepp himself wrote:Regeneration is 25 points for anyone I think. Oh, and wings are 60 or 65 for tyrants.

Wow, that is like a squad of Gaunts.
I feel bad now about the amount of time I spent making my Tyrants wings and probably never getting to use them...

Any ideas on how much the new Acid Blood or Toxic Miasma costs? I really like the idea of slapping those on the Tyrant.

Railguns wrote:A blast weapon that's been a blast weapon as long as it has has existed (AFAIK) suddenly becoming a 3 shot gun for no reason at all? That's either an Arby or bunk,

When the Eldar moved away from Plasma Cannons, they got 3-shot guns.

uggghhhhh, well there goes my warrior setup. in some cases i'm sure its better, but i like scattering :(

Fetterkey wrote:An Inquisitor with Mystics seems like he would block many of these tricks.

Yep, as well as many "tricks" from other armies as well. It's why I hope that inquisition gets a new codex, and the ability to hand out a inquisitor and pair of mystics to every Lieutenant with 2 lasguns to point at a bad guy, hopefully will go away. Out of the last 6 games I played against Imperial armies, only one wasn't made into an inquisitional force by the addition of those guys.

Schepp himself wrote:

Railguns wrote:

Regeneration:
At the start of each turn the model recovers a wound on a 6.

Mh...I read that for each wound previously lost in the game you roll a D6 and for every 6 that shows up you get a wound back.

Conflicting sources maybe? But I've seen it in the printed out codex. Maybe the translation was fishy.

Greets
Schepp himself

For those of us with a 4rth ed codex , regeneration currently works as follows: at the start of each turn, a model with regeneration rolls a D6 for each wound currently lost. For each 6 rolled, the model recovers a wound up to its starting number. It is currently 30 pts.

Can't say that it is a popular choice now, when we currently have 5 wound carnies, so I am not sure how popular this is going to be. Never know though *shrugs*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Railguns wrote:Good freaking lord. ~65 point wings? Wow. That's so comically overpriced it's almost tragic.
At that cost I'm surprised they aren't trying to sell mycetic spore pod models now that wings cost almost as much as a current base carnifex.

Not really suprised as that is roughly what it costs for Deamon princes in C. Of course thier MC come with invulnerable saves, EW, super high WS .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Railguns wrote:Has anyone else noticed that the Devourer didn't just get nerfed, but made into a near useless little peashooter? 2 shots at S3 and no ap? Are they really that pissed that people actually used devourers in 4th? Did it honestly deserve such obviously hateful treatment?


Edit: Sorry, ap6. Big difference....

Well, DS on naked guants were str 2 (3 with TS), 2 shots, and AP -. Though they did get living ammo and 18" range. Depends on the range and cost really. Also if poisoned is a cheap upgrade...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gorgon wrote:According to someone on Warpshadow, the Deathspitter isn't an S5 AP5 blast but a S5 AP5 Assault 3 gun. :( I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but that's kinda disappointing.

Well depending on range and cost, this looks like a pretty big nerf as currently the 3" blast usually nets 3 hits, has strength 6 (wounding on 2's against most troops), and AP 4. I was really hoping that the "venom cannon" was replacing the deathspitter entry as the stats were fairly comparable. Still, I am hoping this is a gack rumor.

getting rid of dakka fexs and devil tyrants is like getting rid of termicide units. they are not the most fluffy setups, but they are extremely useful.

anyways, so about the trevigon. do you think you will specifically have to take termagaunts to allow the tevigon to be a troop choice? or could one use spine gaunts or any other variation?

Shoot- with the buffs to spinefists, I bet Spinegaunts will be more expensive than fleshborer termagants. I may have to rip up about 6 of the little buggers... or just get some scytal bitz online and go for an all-hormagaunt force.

This shakeup is both exciting and annoying. It is also the best argument I've ever seen that one should MAGNETIZE EVERYTHING.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, anyone seen whether Genestealers will have any mutable-genus mods, like feeder tentacles etc.? I know the Ymgarl variant is it's own thing- I'm just wondering if it's safe to start building up a bunch before the codex comes out. I want those Chapterhouse heads!

Ermm well you could use our heads for the YMgarl variants

Is anyone really surprised that all their effective units (Dakkafexes, Winged Tyrants w/Devourers) are being made useless?

Really? That surprises people these days?

I'm not surprised, I'm just not entirely happy. I used to love my dakka...now it's gone.

Lukus83 wrote:I used to love my dakka...now it's gone.

Perfect lyrics for a country song!

well, i would like to think they would keeo the spine fist the cheap alternative. but apparently they are taking the old codex, throwing it out the window and doing whatever they want.

Sneezypanda wrote:well, i would like to think they would keeo the spine fist the cheap alternative. but apparently they are taking the old codex, throwing it out the window and doing whatever they want.

Well that's because Arby is writing it. His design methodology is essentially "Change everything, no matter how minor".

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sneezypanda wrote:well, i would like to think they would keeo the spine fist the cheap alternative. but apparently they are taking the old codex, throwing it out the window and doing whatever they want.

Well that's because Arby is writing it. His design methodology is essentially "Change everything, no matter how minor".

Yeah, precedent has little to no impact on what's going to be useful or even existent. (Tangentially, this all just makes me really hope that Phil is still around when the Eldar get a redo. Arby getting his mitts on the spacelves would be a travesty).

So even if a Spinegaunt ends up more expensive- say, 6 points- I wonder if it will be worth it to take spinefists over fleshborers. I mainly use the current ones to tarpit and I just ignore the weaponry... but with S4 18" twin-linked, that could change.

I guess the questions is: would the average one round or so of shooting per game be worth 20 extra points per squad? If they have a special weapon in the brood (the flamer thingy or whatever), that could tip the balance towards investing in shooting too.

Hmmm. Advice needed.

I never thought I would see the day. I can barely tell the difference between the level of knee-jerking and hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing between Dakka and Warseer. I'm tempted to just boycott the fething internet.

'Tis strange indeed. Normally I go to 'Seer to relax and calm down after being over here. Now I think after I leave here and go to 'Seer before I catch some zzzzz's I'll be cursing the Interwebs and 40K in general.

The gnashing of teeth over there is worst than it was with the CSM codex, and contrary to a few posters that is hated as much by 'Seer as it is by Dakka.

I think the current Devourers and Dakka `Fexes were much better than anticipated, and would be more surprised if they had not been changed.

The Hive Tyrant is a good bit harder now with psychic powers and upped stats. If wings were cheaper, that could mean a no-brainer. I prefer a bit overcosted personally.

@Savnock: I think feeder tendrils are out. Except for the Ymgarl-Stealers.

@wyomingfux: Thanks for clearing the regeneration thing up. So apparently nothing has changed. Sadly you cannot up the wounds on a carnifex, so I think regeneration will only see the day on a trygon.

Greets
Schepp himself

Im curious, is there any artwork on the codex for the new drop spore? How much do they cost?

I'll wait to see this army in the field before I make any judgements, but it seems to be one of the most drastic departures from a previous codex ever. It'll be fun watching the scramble to find the best builds. My hope is that a balanced combined force works well, because that is the nicest looking nid force on the table.

Schepp himself wrote:@Savnock: I think feeder tendrils are out. Except for the Ymgarl-Stealers.

I don't think they would get rid of something that's part of the sprue. Unless you have to use the same sprue for ymgarl stealers as well.

Klawz wrote:

Schepp himself wrote:@Savnock: I think feeder tendrils are out. Except for the Ymgarl-Stealers.

I don't think they would get rid of something that's part of the spruce. Unless you have to use the same spruce for ymgarl stealers as well.

The word is sprue. plural sprues.

skrulnik wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Schepp himself wrote:@Savnock: I think feeder tendrils are out. Except for the Ymgarl-Stealers.

I don't think they would get rid of something that's part of the spruce. Unless you have to use the same spruce for ymgarl stealers as well.

The word is sprue. plural sprues.

Thank you for the correction.

Da Boss wrote:I'll wait to see this army in the field before I make any judgements, but it seems to be one of the most drastic departures from a previous codex ever. It'll be fun watching the scramble to find the best builds.

This.

I'm not angry with the way things are panning out. I'm just worried that the whole overhaul might be a little too far. There wasn't a need for a complete re-do of the 'dex. A few points values adjusted, a few special rules worked through and the codex could have been compatible for 5th.

Of course I'm excited too...it feels like Christmas...oh wait. Well I'm excited about that too. What I really mean to say is that there are a lot of changes that we will have to get used to and I'm feeling a mixture of dread and excitement...does that make any sense?

Trygon and ravener assembly guide pics here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300/268741.page

Sneezypanda wrote:uggghhhhh, well there goes my warrior setup. in some cases i'm sure its better, but i like scattering :(

Note this could easily be wrong given how many contradictions we've had in these rumors. I'm just passing along a different rumor from another place.

Regarding the new approach, I was the one screaming for it to be blown up. I really wanted to see it return to the "fast and deadly army of predators" concept, but obviously they took more of a "cannon fodder with Toho monsters" approach. Ah, well. I'll deal. Truthfully, it's such a dramatic overhaul that I don't know that any of us will be really qualified to judge it for a while.

There are army concepts I like...namely, spore pods and deep strikers combined with spore mine clusters. But it's kinda hard to say how that would really play out.

I'm planning to give them a try at a small tourney coming up in late January and a larger one in late February. The first one will probably be a cobbled-together list based on my existing stuff, but I hope to give pods and such a try at the later tourney. I don't really like writing battle reports, but I'll try to post some kind of report on my experiences and findings afterward. I'm sure we can figure out some competitive builds.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is anyone really surprised that all their effective units (Dakkafexes, Winged Tyrants w/Devourers) are being made useless?

Really? That surprises people these days?

Your comment surprises me...do people still use Flyrants?

I think, instead of the ol' proxy-drop-pods-with-soda-cans routine, we should all use heads of lettuce.

That is all.

skrulnik wrote:The word is sprue. plural sprues.

Thank you. That misspelling annoys me more than people talking about Blood Angles.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is anyone really surprised that all their effective units (Dakkafexes, Winged Tyrants w/Devourers) are being made useless?

Really? That surprises people these days?

To be fair, it was always a toss up between the CC Tyrant and the Dakka Tyrant. Having gone to Adepticon when Nidzilla dominated the scene, I rarely saw an abundance of one or the other.

And the Dakkafex, was just to good in comparison to the other options.

So you are right, we shouldn't be surprised.

I am actually a fan of Mr. Cruddace. He may make a lot of changes to codexes, but his books have been pretty balanced on unit choices and the army plays like it's supposed to. The IG are sitting on probably the best dex they ever had outside of second edition, and they Tyranids look like they are bringing swarms and close combat monstrous creatures back, the way they where always supposed to be. The new codex also looks to be a converter's wet dream.

ForceVoid wrote:I think, instead of the ol' proxy-drop-pods-with-soda-cans routine, we should all use heads of lettuce.

That is all.

At dinner last night, my father and I debated the usefulness of various plants as spore pods. I championed the "spud pod", whereas he thought an eggplant pod would do better.

Or use these rather amazing things from megabloks!

How about the carrot of doom?

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:Or use these rather amazing things from megabloks!

Yes. I have just ordered a couple off EvilBay. When painted they will be great.

I am kind of curious more and more about the special ability the broodlord gets that lowers leadership as well as what exactly the point cost on genestealers is .

People keep saying oh they are cheaper than greyhunter but greyhunters are 15 points so how much cheaper 12 points?

Mahu wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is anyone really surprised that all their effective units (Dakkafexes, Winged Tyrants w/Devourers) are being made useless?

Really? That surprises people these days?

To be fair, it was always a toss up between the CC Tyrant and the Dakka Tyrant. Having gone to Adepticon when Nidzilla dominated the scene, I rarely saw an abundance of one or the other.

And the Dakkafex, was just to good in comparison to the other options.

So you are right, we shouldn't be surprised.

I am actually a fan of Mr. Cruddace. He may make a lot of changes to codexes, but his books have been pretty balanced on unit choices and the army plays like it's supposed to. The IG are sitting on probably the best dex they ever had outside of second edition, and they Tyranids look like they are bringing swarms and close combat monstrous creatures back, the way they where always supposed to be. The new codex also looks to be a converter's wet dream.

i'm new to competitive play and tryanids, so i presume tournament players used broodlords instead?

They seem to really be pushing the deepstriking tactic with all the special abilities etc..


I completely see a 9 Lictor , 80 man drop podding , Ravener, Mawloc army dominating.

Thats just from what I have read.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit:

Anyone know if they cleared up spore mines giving away victory points?

They'll face the same problems from mechanized, or just plain fast, armies that Space Marine Drop armies face but even worse. At least Space Marines can drop and create fire-zones with the free time afforded them by an army that starts entirely in reserve.

Hollismason:

Yes, they have. If you look around there's a page on Biovores that's been scanned and it mentions that Spore Mines do not give away kill points.

I am really happy to see swarms coming back. I always used to play at my local shop with as many models I could fit in whatever the point value was. I felt cheated when I didn't fill up every slot in the FOC. Hormagaunts look awesome again. I never used to take them because they'd always outrun my synapse unless I made them really expensive and gave them wings or something. Spine gaunts look like they got a strength boost too, I saw S4 somewhere?

The Trygons look AMAZING! I'll take the Mawlocks and burrow up under some position, eat some folks then bring in the 9 Raveners I've had for a while now. I really like the idea of having TONS of broodlords in genestealer units. I am also glad to see they're making lictors better, they were always my favorite even if they couldn't even enter the game very well... oh, you have to deep strike into terrain but if you hit the wall of a building or something you die...

I guess I'm fortunate that I never got into the Nidzilla scene, because my army is still entirely playable. As with any army, if you make it mostly out of troops insteady of HQ/Heavy/Elite your army won't change much from edition to edition. This book is not overpowered and looks like tons of fun. Hopefully they'll get away from Demon/Space Wolf codexes in the future and gradually bring down the power level of Codexes.

Should be fun when the book comes out

Lyracian wrote:

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:Or use these rather amazing things from megabloks!

Yes. I have just ordered a couple off EvilBay. When painted they will be great.

What are these things from Megabloks called exactly (i.e., what should I be searching for)?

Mega Bloks, Plasma Hatchers.
They each come with an egg like this but the one called Sharka has a slightly more tyranid looking beast inside it.
He/she might be of more use for terrain/conversions than than the others fwiw?

Here's a link to some tyranid terrain that I made using these 'eggs'. It showns how they look painted up......
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/259451.page

Seeing as im not too great on reading thru the whole thread could someone answer this one question:

Is the venomthrope a tyranid KFF?

hollismason wrote:Anyone know if they cleared up spore mines giving away victory points?

Yes, per the Biovore entry spore mines do not count towrds mission objectives: Can't cotest objectives and no KP. Isn't that grand

Hold on a second.

I’ve been trying to follow the Codex rumor threads and I think I’m getting a bit lost. Some folks seem to be thinking that the swarm style army is back but considering the plethora of MC’s in every force org section and broods of Carnifexs (sp?) it looks to me like the Nidzilla list is stronger than ever.

Am I missing something here?

Nice idae about drop pods was thinging about useing bits from the fex kits i get to make the tryfex thing
i just one question does anyone know how to make good looking wings for that sporing thing ???
am liking the fact fexs are more c&c i have 2 fexs with crushing clws and talons

voidfiend wrote:
Hold on a second.

I’ve been trying to follow the Codex rumor threads and I think I’m getting a bit lost. Some folks seem to be thinking that the swarm style army is back but considering the plethora of MC’s in every force org section and broods of Carnifexs (sp?) it looks to me like the Nidzilla list is stronger than ever.

Am I missing something here?

No you're pretty much dead on, but simultaneously theyve made swarm good again, with cheap neverending tides of troops and mcs that literally crap them out. I personally think the 'mixed bag' is gonna come back better than ever, which is kinda what i was running in 4th but then it leaned into a nidzilla army. I placed high in a bunch of gts and killed lots of things, and the rest is history...

Now i own 20+ carnifexes from tournament winnings and gifts, and I'll probably never use them this ed. if this 200 pt thing is true. they WERE 85 and just good, now they'll be 170 or whatever and completely nerfbatted back into the closet. Oh well, thats why i invested in 30+ boxes of gaunts over the last 4 years. Just so when it became good to run like 200 hormagaunts or termagaunts, Id be ready.

Now I'm ready

Oldone, could you PLEASE do a little spell checking before tossing out posts? There's a spell checker built into the forum, so you don't even have to do anything other than change the words with squiggly lines under them. Also, please try to spell units' names correctly. If you don't know how to spell them, look them up.

I’ve been trying to follow the Codex rumor threads and I think I’m getting a bit lost. Some folks seem to be thinking that the swarm style army is back but considering the plethora of MC’s in every force org section and broods of Carnifexs (sp?) it looks to me like the Nidzilla list is stronger than ever.

Am I missing something here?

The problem is that monstrous creatures seem to have gotten a gigantic (monstrous, even) price hike. Yeah, you can technically field more of them in a standard FOC, but it's going to run you 4500 points.

I hope that means we'll see combined lists. Because really those are the coolest looking and the most fun to fight.

Nurglitch wrote:They'll face the same problems from mechanized, or just plain fast, armies that Space Marine Drop armies face but even worse. At least Space Marines can drop and create fire-zones with the free time afforded them by an army that starts entirely in reserve.

Good point to consider. We don't know the rules for the Spore Pods yet; maybe they will have an early reserve rule like SM drop pods or Ceamons. If not, then having your forces arriving both at random and late in the game wound not be the best tactic. I personally see the Spore Pods as allowing a nid player to field 1-2 units that can drop in, rather than an all or nothing DS task force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:Mega Bloks, Plasma Hatchers.
They each come with an egg like this but the one called Sharka has a slightly more tyranid looking beast inside it.
He/she might be of more use for terrain/conversions than than the others fwiw?

Here's a link to some tyranid terrain that I made using these 'eggs'. It showns how they look painted up......
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/259451.page

Heah Alex, your avatar rocks and your conversion idea is even better. Thanks for the tip

Hollismason wrote:


Anyone know if they cleared up spore mines giving away victory points?

yes, it specifically states that they are different units, but they do not count toward objective holding or as kill points.

HoverBoy wrote:Seeing as im not too great on reading thru the whole thread could someone answer this one question:

Is the venomthrope a tyranid KFF?

According to the rumors yes; in addition to the 5+ cover save for units within 6", it also grants defense grenades. Not sure if the cover save will benefit MC though as they have that pesky 50% rule similar to vehicles.

There is also some mention of enemy units that assault (them?) having to make dangerous terrain tests. In that regards, are they refering to the venomthrope itself or to the nearby nid units that are under its effects?

Finally, when in CC with an enemy unit, venethropes supposedly reduce the enemy unit's Initiative to 1, a great support ability for combi-charges. My question is do they have fleet so that they will be able to get into the action when your first wave hits the gunline?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:Anyone know if they cleared up spore mines giving away victory points?

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, they have. If you look around there's a page on Biovores that's been scanned and it mentions that Spore Mines do not give away kill points.

wyomingfox wrote:Yes, per the Biovore entry spore mines do not count towrds mission objectives: Can't cotest objectives and no KP. Isn't that grand

Sneezypanda wrote:yes, it specifically states that they are different units, but they do not count toward objective holding or as kill points.

I feel another "Litko Airlite Space Corridors and Industrial Towers" type meme coming on

warpcrafter wrote:I never thought I would see the day. I can barely tell the difference between the level of knee-jerking and hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing between Dakka and Warseer. I'm tempted to just boycott the fething internet.

That is always an option!

Fateweaver wrote:'Tis strange indeed. Normally I go to 'Seer to relax and calm down after being over here. Now I think after I leave here and go to 'Seer before I catch some zzzzz's I'll be cursing the Interwebs and 40K in general.

The gnashing of teeth over there is worst than it was with the CSM codex, and contrary to a few posters that is hated as much by 'Seer as it is by Dakka.

Have to disagree on that one.

Disagree in a large way.

Still, it is all a matter of opinion.

I'm looking forward to learning what the disadvantages are going to be...

I agree with Alpharius on this one...so strongly that if they sold a "I agree with Alpharious" shirt, I would buy one.

Railguns wrote:I wonder why crushing claws required the I nerf. If they simple add D3 attacks rather than replace the 4 base attacks with d6 like the old ones would have, it would be a better buy immediately. But if a carnifex is already I1 still, then why should it even have a I nerf unless there is some sort of I boost the fex can get somehow.

No I'm pretty sure the crusher claws will be dreadnought cc equivalents. With 2 DN CC you got the S increase + d3 A and the I nerf. There just hasn't been any conformation on the strength portion.

First off i am sorry for my spelling i am relly bad at english. i didn't no there was an spell checker thanks for telling me how do you use it

I am curious too? I don't see this option.

Me neither.

Spell checking is an option that Google's chrome and Mozilla Firefox support. If you are using another browser; you won't see the red squiggly line telling you the correct word to use.

Note the Chrome / Firefox "dictionary" feature is independent of websites, and has a slight lag to it; so if you are intent on throwing your idea to the winds of the forum without pausing; even if you are using Firefox, chances are the Dictionary feature won't work well for you.

If the fex is strength 9, then it would be silly to have a DCCW upgrade. If he were S6, then it would make more sense, but I would be very sad.

All I know is I want Crushing Claws on my Carnifexes. Not because it would be necessarily effective (i don't know one way or another right now) but because it would be Cool. I'm just trying to decide if I want a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler on him now, what with I guess a higher BS and Venom Cannons going to blast weapons as well.

Well, CC and Talons would be 8 attacks on the charge rerolling 1's.

Or take 4 Talons, adrenal glands for I4 on the charge with 5 attacks rerolling all.

Or mix shooty and assaulty but to me that's silly.

I never got into nidzilla, all my army lists are dominated by gaunts (120 of them) warriors (18 of them), a non flying tyrant and as many genestealers as I could fit. I called it my my space crusade throw back.

I am not hurt by anything but the loss of EW. I did okay with out it, but I excelled with it.

I do have a single carnifex, but I have 3 of the old screamer killers, I never got one of the ugly smiling crab ones.

My Carnifex always has and always will have his set of scythes, and.................. Crushing Claws!!

I love this new book, just more to add. I learned to win by tactics, manuvering and good luck, never ever nidzilla and flyrants.

Good times for me. Damn shame about my warriors though, and my spinegaunts, but them be small bumps. Hell, maybe even use raveners to disrupt again.

Or mix shooty and assaulty but to me that's silly.

I dunno, the new carnifex is not like the old. You are getting 4 base attacks, BS3 and a 12" ranged plasma cannon bundled. I could see adding a 2nd shooting attack for a spore poding carnifex (depending on cost and efficiency, neither of which is known at this time).

The change to the base attacks of the MCs and how the biomorphs work are pretty big changes. I'm also really digging the idea of rerolling all misses against vehicles (and I seriously hope the wording is not at all like preferred enemy).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is anyone really surprised that all their effective units (Dakkafexes, Winged Tyrants w/Devourers) are being made useless?

Really? That surprises people these days?

I have yet to see how winged Hive Tyrants are being made useless.

Currently I set mine up for around 200 points, but in the new dex the same cost will get me better WS, I and re-rolls on to hit! My biggest problem with the damn thing is I'd go charge into combat and end up with 2 hits, which really killed the capability of him. Also, 2 free psychic powers. I have no problem life leeching and charging units. Then there is the rumored 'ward' save? 5+ i? Now I don't have to spend 40 points on warp field...

I think the 5+ ward save has been debunked as a false rumor, and I believe the cost of wings is going up to about 60 points or so (was stated to be 'the cost of 12 spinefist gaunts' over on warseer). I don't believe the flying tyrant will be an automatic choice, but I'd imagine that it should still have some usability in the new dex, even if nerfed a bit.

I'm holding out to see the dex for myself before I make any assumptions about any units being OP'd or useless.

FoolWhip wrote:

I have yet to see how winged Hive Tyrants are being made useless.

This really has nothing to do with a codex but with how 5th edition itself took away a Flying MC ability to hide from incoming fire, you know, the kind of dakka that single, lone Flyrant tends to draw. Ceamons is a bit of a differnce given that you can spam Flying MC between Deamon Princes and Blood Thirsters and that Deamons have a tendency to drop in on you in mass.

But who knows, given rumors of other flying MC and the possibilty of no more limits on Flyrants, you might see them make a come back.

But who knows, given rumors of other flying MC and the possibilty of no more limits on Flyrants, you might see them make a come back.

Yeah the harpy is an intriguing model and I am curious what rules it will sport. Jetbike? Jumpack? Wonder if the Harpy can get some anti-tank firepower (twin linked or two shot VC upgrade perhaps?)

Seems like a speedy MC army is doable. 2x Flyrants, 2+ trygons and 2+ Harpies depending on points. Fill in rest of points in scoring units of choice as the mop up crew.

If I was going to convert a winged Hive Tyrant starting now, I'd say forget that large metal monstrosity. Even though it looks cool, it's a pain to assemble and keep from harm and it weighs a lot. I'd get some plastic wings and convert a new plastic Trygon to be my winged Hive Tyrant.

I've been pretty happy with the last few codecii and I'm sure that this one will be fine and balanced too but damn, based on these rumours alone the nid ist looks unbelievably scary.

tons of MC's available including troop MC's! poisonous hormies, nasty shooting options, spawning extra troop choices, drop pods that can fight in cc and have decent shooting capability and those psychic powers. Wow!

I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop but I can't figure out what it will be. Presumably it will be pts. If the 200-ish pts for carnies, trygons and tyrannofexes is true and the upgrades for tyrants are all in the 30-60pts range then MC's will be hard as nails but possibly very overcosted. But then guants are much cheaper? If guants are cheap and MC's waaay expensive then it looks like we're returning to armies that need big bugs, little bigs and middling bugs to win. Tat's fine by me as it looks the best on the table and matches the fluff much better.

Yet crucially the option for a nidzilla, stealer shock or mycetic spore army is still there. There's also potential for a very nasty move and shoot army based around middle sized nids (hive guard, warrior troops, carnies/tyrannofexes for heavies) and a tricksy army (ymargl steaers and standard stealers, lictors, trygons helping raveners to enter play). I love that the 5th ed dexes so far have allowed widely divergent builds. They won't all be as powerful obviously but that they exist is good.

Don't worry about it. Every time a new list comes out people read the rumours and panic that there's some "game-breaking" new thing(s) in it, and every time a new list comes out we see that such panic was unjustified. Don't count chickens before they hatch. So I have to echo the sentiment that the last few (okay, the last five) army lists have been good work and look forward to the latest addition to the new golden era that is 5th edition.

The monstrous creatures won't be any harder than they are now. As a matter of fact, seeing as how their aren't any sort of profile changing biomorphs, the monstrous creatures got more expensive but are easier to kill then ever. Their is also the often corroborated rumor that spinegaunts and termagants have literally changed places, in that spinegaunts are now the nastier, more expensive shooty gaunt and termagants are now the cheaper, weaker variant. It's one of the most blatant examples of "well, everyone used that last edition, and we want to sell more models, so lets change that, screw the veterans" situations I've ever seen.

The little guys are dirt cheap so you can have lots of them , conversely mid sized guys have a midrange cost , big guys have a big cost.


It balances out. You can have 5 or 6 monstrous creatures and still field 90 little guys.

That doesn't really excuse the fact that we are going to end up paying land raider/monolith points costs for Monstrous creatures that get smoked by plasma weapons on a regular basis.

But that will be balanced out by lesser points for everything else. Keep in mind that, as many others have pointed out, the new codex has not yet been seen. Remember the lead up to guard and space wolves, we had a good idea of what was in them, but there were still some surprises.

If the Guard codex showed anything it was that Cruddance does indeed understand the 5th edition mechanics better than some of the other game developers at GW. I think that tyranids will not be a game breaker, nor wlll it be bunk. I feel based of what we have heard that like guard it will be different from what we have seen before for that army, but fit within the confines of the game better than what we had seen before.

It doesn't really work that way, unfortunately. If you had a very limited set of models to take, you could get away with the expensive vs. cheap balancing theory. As it is, constructing the codex that way leaves you with some units that are overcosted and some that are undercosted. People will tend to spam the latter and forget the former exist. I'm not going to make a call either way until I see the codex, but it's sounding to me like Tyranid monstrous creatures got seriously shafted. I hope that is not the case.

Looking at the rumours, I would like to offer a few tentative ideas about what the new Tyranid Meta will lookk like.

If the Toxin Sacks=4+ Poison is true, and not particularily expensive, I could see people loading all of their non-monstrous CC units with them.

Thanks to spore podding, I think Nidzilla will see a big shift, more towards Drop troops, Tervigons and Termagants.

The Hive Gaurd will likely show up in a lot of armies. I am not saying Dakka 'Fex awesome, but for 50-60 points, the spray of S8 sot they could provide is... Formidable.

Well, with Hormagaunts losing the fast charge, we likely won't see toxin sacks taken on them. Warriors aren't going to be fast enough to use them unless you pod them.

Dammit, it's like they intentionally slowed down the whole army and then dangled spore pods at the end of the book with a gleam in their eye and a snicker on their breath as they say, without words, "you need this". And by god, we need it. We need it SO BAD.

Cue 6 years of their not being a spore pod model. Then GW will release a spore pod model halfway through next edition. Everyone will buy half a dozen of them. The next Tyranid book will make them illegal.

Well, hopefully there are a few options for fast synapse besides the Flyrant. How does the Alpha Trygon move? Is it a beast? Or have just fleet?

About time they re-did them.

How does removing just Hormagaunt's Fast Charge slow down the whole army, especially when they gave them Quick to replace it?

MilkmanAl wrote:It doesn't really work that way, unfortunately. If you had a very limited set of models to take, you could get away with the expensive vs. cheap balancing theory. As it is, constructing the codex that way leaves you with some units that are overcosted and some that are undercosted. People will tend to spam the latter and forget the former exist. I'm not going to make a call either way until I see the codex, but it's sounding to me like Tyranid monstrous creatures got seriously shafted. I hope that is not the case.

Not necessarily. Great value for pts is one thing and most lists spam the stuff that is great value for pts but you also have to look at the overall tools a list needs to win.

Every list needs anti-tank, anti-infantry, some strategy for assault, some strategy for objectives, etc. If the only option in your list for anti-tank is good but very expensive to the pts of being overcosted you'll still take it because you need good anti-tank i.e. sisters and exorcists, grey knights and land raiders. I can see zoanthropes and tyrannofexes falling into this category.

Similarly stuff that is great for their pts might not get used if they do something that other stuff in the army does better even if its less competitively priced i.e. whirlwinds for marines, bloodclaws for space wolves. I can see biovores, pyrovores, carnifexes and gargoyles falling into this trap.

I do predict hive guard in every list since it solves a problem nids have otherwise, how to stop transports.

Basicaly as I see it, big critters and some middle critters kill enemy infantry - (fexes, stealers, trygon, tyrant, raveners, warriors)
hive guard kill troops at range
big monsters kill heavy tanks
little critters kill big monsters (hormies with poison sacs)

Bravelybravesirrobin...I think you are missing a key point. Tyranids have always had trouble breaching armour. The job seems to have been made easier with this codex, but we now have to pay a lot more points, so it may be just as unreliable as ever. Losing immunity to ID also doesn't help with this.

That said we haven't seen the full picture yet so I can't wait to get my hands on the codex and see it without rumours (this saturday or next monday it looks like). It's in our nature to feel uncomfortable about the new releases "this is too expensive", "that's been nerfed to hell", but in reality I just think it's the fact that this codex has been completely re-done to a point where players feel it's unrecognizable. There's always gonna be tension in situations like this.

People are too obsessed with blowing up vehicles with ginormous weapons. Lots of S8 shots against a Land Raider is a bet I'm willing to take, and S7 shots against transports is usually a death sentence, as my CSM termies with reaper autocannons have proven. Lots of attacks with a not-so-great weapon in my experience is more dependable than a single attack with that sexy wonder-gun. That being said, I think that my Warriors will be maxed for close combat and drop in, while my Venomthrope-shrouded Carnifexes will rush forward to smash anything they can. I confidently predict much fun will be had. Now if I could just decide on a color scheme.

Yeah I forgot to mention scything talons allowing the re-rolls. Definately a nice perk and less reliance on big guns. I personally prefer charging my fexes into units than sitting at the back taking pot shots at tanks.

Its a more fulffy use of the fex too

Railguns wrote:Well, with Hormagaunts losing the fast charge, we likely won't see toxin sacks taken on them.

If you meant the complete opposite of that, I agree with you.

The fact that warriors are no longer immune to instant death really hurts. I’m also very disappointed in the big points cost increase for Carnifexes.

I know these are just rumors and we haven’t seen the Codex but here are my thoughts on new army lists:

Completely ignore taking Synapses creatures. Yes, you heard me, forget Synapse. All the real tactically important moves will be made by your MC’s such as fexs, Trygon, Hive Guard, etc. The rest of the army will fail LD tests and either shoot at the nearest enemy or charge the nearest enemy asap. All your little critters will be like a wind up toys, point them in the right direction and let ‘em rip. At 6pts a piece, Hormaguants will be an awesome swarm. As they fail LD test, they will immediately push 2d6 towards enemy lines. Coupled with run moves in the shooting phases, they’ll be hitting the enemy on turn two.

Of course this may all change when I finally see the rules…

(Edited for L33T spelling)

gorgon wrote:

Railguns wrote:Well, with Hormagaunts losing the fast charge, we likely won't see toxin sacks taken on them.

If you meant the complete opposite of that, I agree with you.

QFT, hasnt it already been pointed out how good hormies with toxin sacs will be? We're talking plaguebearers on steroids with bargain basement prices here. If I can get hormagaunts with toxin for 7-8 points per model, you better believe I'll have at least 60 of them in my army.

Umm where does it say the IB affects how fall back moves are resolved? As far as we know fall back is still as now for standard morale failures. Also anyone familiar with 3.5 bezerkers knows rage is exploitable by your opponent. Also those non synapse MCs may still be subject to IB. Finally we still don't know if units under IB can still score.

Don't forget you can carry that Plaguebearer analogy one step further by having a Tervigon give everything FNP. The Tervigon is probably the unit I'm most interested in seeing full rules for. If the "heavy losses" drawback turns out to be not so bad, the stuff he spawns will make up for it and leave you with a 150-ish point MC that makes your swarm a serious pain in the butt to kill. A Tyrant giving everything Preferred Enemy might be a nice touch, too.

winterman wrote:Umm where does it say the IB affects how fall back moves are resolved? As far as we know fall back is still as now for standard morale failures. Also anyone familiar with 3.5 bezerkers knows rage is exploitable by your opponent. Also those non synapse MCs may still be subject to IB. Finally we still don't know if units under IB can still score.

Non MC or Synapse creatures are classified as a hunter or lurker. When IB takes effect, hunters move 2d6 towards the nearest enemy and must assault if possible. Lurkers will move towards nearest cover and shoot nearest enemy.

What if hormies are lurkers?

They aren't. That would be silly; they have no guns.

thanatos67 wrote:QFT, hasnt it already been pointed out how good hormies with toxin sacs will be? We're talking plaguebearers on steroids with bargain basement prices here. If I can get hormagaunts with toxin for 7-8 points per model, you better believe I'll have at least 60 of them in my army.

And slap adrenal glands and toxin sacs on them (granted, that's kinda pricey on a fragile platform) and you'll be rerolling failed wounds vs. T4 on the charge. With a Tyrant nearby, you could be rerolling failed hits and failed wounds.

Not really saying this is the best/only idea for fielding them...just that some of these h2h biomorphs and buffs really start to add up once you stack them. Genestealer with toxin sacs would reroll failed wounds vs. T4 with rending all the time. Nice.

At 2 pts per model, poison might be overkill on hormies at times, though. I wonder if the approach for horde play will be a mix of larger, cheaper units and some smaller "assassin" units with poison, etc. for taking down MCs and other high T targets.

im not worried about IB because I'll probably have 2 tyrants with 3 guard running up the table. Also still dont know what all gives synapse, what if the zoey or hive guard give it? or the alpha trygon?

you never needed alot of synapse for it to work, and now it just seems like more units than ever will be able to keep the little critters in check

winterman wrote:Umm where does it say the IB affects how fall back moves are resolved? As far as we know fall back is still as now for standard morale failures. Also anyone familiar with 3.5 bezerkers knows rage is exploitable by your opponent. Also those non synapse MCs may still be subject to IB. Finally we still don't know if units under IB can still score.

my understanding from reading the rumors here and at warseer before i stopped checking there (due to the "whoa is me and my hive world" drama) is that IB affects your "normal" movement/behavior. you check for synapse at the begining of your turn and, if you're not in, you follow the rules written for the entry (shoot or move/assault the closest). i didn't hear anything about it affecting fall back. as for the last part, i'd be shocked if they couldn't score just because they're out of synapse. that would be something finally worth complaining about as opposed to all the whining about a relatively balanced codex.

Could be a weak point in the list.

On one hand it might explain why there's Synapse available in nearly all slots in the list.

On the other hand, should Tyranid players be taking a turn to gnash their teeth at this latest insult and injury from that most villanous of organizations, Cobr...GW?

gorgon wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:At 2 pts per model, poison might be overkill on hormies at times, though. I wonder if the approach for horde play will be a mix of larger, cheaper units and some smaller "assassin" units with poison, etc. for taking down MCs and other high T targets.

That is going to be the way I run at least, you need to choose between the big "gaunt pooper" MC babysitting your little guys or just having a cheaper wall of wounds in front of them in the form of gaunts or unupgraded hormies.