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Post by: Talking Banana
During the KS, the mantic said in the comments section that the Corps and Zz'or were being held in reserve for another Deadzone KS, not Warpath.
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Post by: Alpharius
judgedoug wrote: Alpharius wrote:I hope this isn't a sign of things to come, and that Mantic can 'figure out' how to get Warpath right.
I disagree entirely. This is the best run Mantic KS in my opinion.
a) reasonable, easy pledge level with a good amount of stuff
b) hard plastic everywhere
c) reasonable timeframe
d) not too large - no overpromising and underdelivering, no quality control nightmares
e) stretch goals allow actual production of quality items (versus tiny stretch goals of KoW1 not allowing any wiggle room)
It is fairly obvious that they will be preparing to do a KoW2-style Warpath KS. Pledge for book+crap, and army-level pledges, consisting of armies of pre-existing plastics.
I'll have to disagree with your disagreement then! 
Especially as 'entirely disagreeing' seems to be missing a lot of things that they didn't do right here.
These two posts illustrate some of that:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:If they produce some Z'zor terrain or 'vehicles', they'll pass 400k for sure.
Unless they show some really terrible sculpts, which is a real probability.
paulson games wrote:I think they added a lot of stuff a bit too late, which is why I ended up doing only $1. I'd been looking at things at the start and also when it was about 72 hours out from close to get an idea of what I wanted. Checked back in the final 4 hours and there's a whole slew of new items and the 3rd party laser cut stuff to the point it was a bit overwhelming, rather than trying to sort it out under a time constraint I said feth it and tossed in $1 so I could figure it out later. When I drop a $100+ I try and plan it out and all the last minute adds didn't help in making a planned purchase. I wonder how many other people are in the same boat?
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Post by: Baragash
 Vermonter wrote:During the KS, the mantic said in the comments section that the Corps and Zz'or were being held in reserve for another Deadzone KS, not Warpath.
Yeah, I thought there was some rumour mutation, it would be a big surprise to me if Zz'or are there out of the gate and a moderate surprise if Corp were, at this stage.
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Post by: pongo50
I am Happy with this KS
Value for money, nicely run, lots of add ons.
Reality in time lines.
Will be a great New Years present to myself! 
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Post by: angelofvengeance
I wasn't too happy about that 4 armed guy. Who the heck came up with that??
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
That was a race from Dreadball Xtreme.
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Post by: privateer4hire
Dunno who came up with 'em. In addition to DBX, they're a part of the Rebs DBO team that have already been released:
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/dreadball/teams/product/the-unincorporated-rebs-team-10-figures.html
On the plus-side, they have nigh-broken bonus for slamming opposing players in Dreadball
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Post by: Talking Banana
I think the main lesson I'd take away from this campaign, if I were Mantic, would be to lock in value early. Use some of the beginning momentum to overcome a few longer initial stretch goals and put together worthwhile pledge packages right from the start.
And don't wait for revolts against bad pricing to put up a few banner sweet deals. The jet bikes should have been $5 from the beginning, using Walmart's old tactic of super-cheap soda machines out front to get people thinking the store inside will be just as much of a bargain.
It's amazing the goodwill, enthusiasm, and willingness to invest in the rest that $5 jet bikes can generate.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
I think that it's a mistake to have a low initial target and try to fund different factions sequentially through stretch goals.
This means that people are expected to pledge for the initial stuff they might not want, and risk their money without getting to the stretch goals they actually want.
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Post by: Krinsath
I think the low initial target, and the fake stretch goals such an approach requires, is really about the only criticism I would level at the campaign. The initial offering is BS compared to where Mantic knows it will be. Veteran backers know that it's BS, because we know Mantic and how many times do you see the phrase "don't worry guys, it will be better by the end of the campaign" pop up? The only people who don't know that the initial offering is a farce are people who are new, and these are the people who are unlikely to check back later to see if magically the deal is better. That's money left on the table, which is fine if that's what you're going for but I doubt Mantic is particularly looking for that outcome.
So at the end of the day, what do these artificially low funding goals actually accomplish? That they funded in less than X hours? That they had 400% of a too-low number? That they had an inflated number of stretch goals passed? Where is the money in any of that, really? From the outside, those numbers essentially seem like achievement points in video games; they mean pretty much nothing but Mantic looks like they want to keep chasing after them. Could someone please enlighten me as to the commercial sense those sparse initial offerings and transparently-padded goals are adding? From where I sit, all it seems to do is increase backer fatigue, push away first-time backers and give ammunition to their detractors. I really am at a loss to explain why that seems so attractive rather than just figuring out a solid starting setup, a realistic goal and going from there.
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Post by: Ace Histoli
Good auestions. The one advantage, I think, is that quick funding and %overfunding enter into the metrics for kicktraq "hotness" and similar kickstarter-monitoring sites.
I agree that it doesn't seem like enough.
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
Its kinda like camera megapixels. Everyone knows they don't matter, including everyone in the development of them, but the race races on regardless.
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Post by: Krinsath
 MasterSlowPoke wrote:Its kinda like camera megapixels. Everyone knows they don't matter, including everyone in the development of them, but the race races on regardless.
It's somewhat worse than that really; megapixels DID matter at one point, and for some high-end applications can still matter. I'm not sure the numbers that Mantic appear to be chasing after have ever meant anything.
Sure, you end up higher on kicktraq which gets you...exposure, I guess? Which you're already getting from various news sites and advertisers because it's miniatures news and that's what those sites are tracking anyway. Except because of the pursuit of aggregator websites, they're losing sales because of what's already been outlined. My guess would be the number of people who back KickStarters and rely solely on kicktraq and other similar sites for their news is exceedingly small. I'd further venture a guess that the number of people who say "Eh...$4 a mini" (or whatever Quarantine would have cost at the start) and never come back is the bigger one, though that's obviously hard to prove.
I understand the approach was successful at one point for them, but I do have to wonder if the KS ecosystem has changed with all the various mis-steps and issues of the platform (not just Mantic's). I hesitate to say that the backer of 2015 is more sophisticated than the one of 2012 or 2013, but I think the issues have made people more informed which in turn makes these attempts at market psychology more obvious. Granted, "do it the way we always have" is a bit of business-blinders that affects many more companies than Mantic.
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Post by: Mezmaron
I grabbed an EB in the first few minutes, but dropped it the last day. A few reasons:
*I really was hoping (expecting?) an upgrade to the quality gaming mat - paper mat sucks.
*Shipping was extra.
*Although he value was GREAT, unfortunately most of the stuff I had no need for.
Lastly (and this is huge), Miniature Market periodically has such great deals on Mantic, I find it hard to justify pledging on KS. I just picked up some Mars Attacks during the March Madness sale, and most of it was 50% off with free shipping. On Black Friday I ordered a ton of BattleZones scenery for more than 50% off.
So I will still probably pickup what I want, but will wait until Black Friday 2016 or March Madness 2016....
Mez
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Post by: Thraxas Of Turai
Vermonter wrote:I think the main lesson I'd take away from this campaign, if I were Mantic, would be to lock in value early.
Totally agreed on that, I checked out the initial offer and was not enticed at all by it so never really went back to the KS page to see how the campaign was going (basically what Krinsath said in an earlier post). Sure I checked out how it was going on this thread but Mantic pretty much killed my initial interest with a poor initial offering, by the time it was piqued again with the HIPS Forge Fathers I just though I may as well wait for retail in early 2016. Bear in mind that I sunk some £250 odd into Deadzone 1 and really enjoy the game, someone new to Deadzone may have been put off more easily with the ( IMO) poor initial pledge rewards.
But maybe a lower total and easier fulfillment was Mantic's goal, however counter intuitive that may seem.
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Post by: dragqueeninspace
Given that mantic appears to have used all there stretch goals up right when the campaign ended I can't imagine they are at alll unhappy with how this one went.
People upset about their pet faction being the focus does not a failed campaign make.
People upset about paying for shipping does not a failed campaign make. Shipping costs and someone has to pay it.
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Post by: DaveC
They ended the stretch goals as there was only an hour left. They had more in reserve but knew they wouldn't get the funding for anymore. By their own admission the HIPS Asterian battle drones are done sculpting and 3D print wise but never appeared as they couldn't get the $50k or so they needed for them.
But yeah they have 3 factions sorted for Warpath and they covered everything they needed to for DZ:I so it a successful campaign and with less to focus on should hopefully be on time and to a good quality
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Hopefully they let Jake finish the game this time and not have to worry about 3 other projects at the same time.
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Post by: mitch_rifle
honestly i'd rather they just fund kits rather than all these character stretch goals, and just straight up say whats on offer and all the goals might just tempt people more than a wild goose chase
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Post by: Sining
 DaveC wrote:They ended the stretch goals as there was only an hour left. They had more in reserve but knew they wouldn't get the funding for anymore. By their own admission the HIPS Asterian battle drones are done sculpting and 3D print wise but never appeared as they couldn't get the $50k or so they needed for them.
But yeah they have 3 factions sorted for Warpath and they covered everything they needed to for DZ:I so it a successful campaign and with less to focus on should hopefully be on time and to a good quality
Who knows, maybe they'll get that in the PM
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Post by: CptJake
Sining wrote: DaveC wrote:They ended the stretch goals as there was only an hour left. They had more in reserve but knew they wouldn't get the funding for anymore. By their own admission the HIPS Asterian battle drones are done sculpting and 3D print wise but never appeared as they couldn't get the $50k or so they needed for them.
But yeah they have 3 factions sorted for Warpath and they covered everything they needed to for DZ:I so it a successful campaign and with less to focus on should hopefully be on time and to a good quality
Who knows, maybe they'll get that in the PM
They may, but since they did not announce the plastic Asterians as a SG, it won't matter unless Mantic is feeling super generous. I suspect they only announce stretch goals at thinned which can be achieved through the pledge manager are stretch goals they have pretty much decided would be produced anyway. In this case I suspect the KS did not go as far as they needed for these so they are holding them back for the next KS.
Or maybe even they will use more traditional funding and produce them for retail even without a KS.
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Post by: DaveC
Unfortunately it seems unlikely - no PM stretch goals anything they make there they might use to fund something else but no stretch goals to aim for (plus Mantic's PM doesn't reveal how much they take in the PM so it's really an unknown)
@ Thomas Craven - we won't be doing stretch goals for the pledge manager sorry, you never know, we might make a couple of things, but I doubt it.
Apr 6 2015 on Deadzone: Infestation Sci-fi Skirmish Game
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Post by: lord_blackfang
 CptJake wrote:Or maybe even they will use more traditional funding and produce them for retail even without a KS.
You're a funny man.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Vermonter wrote:I think the main lesson I'd take away from this campaign, if I were Mantic, would be to lock in value early. Use some of the beginning momentum to overcome a few longer initial stretch goals and put together worthwhile pledge packages right from the start.
And don't wait for revolts against bad pricing to put up a few banner sweet deals. The jet bikes should have been $5 from the beginning, using Walmart's old tactic of super-cheap soda machines out front to get people thinking the store inside will be just as much of a bargain.
It's amazing the goodwill, enthusiasm, and willingness to invest in the rest that $5 jet bikes can generate.
Agreed, hopefully with Warpath they lock in a really good deal on the Enforcer army first, before moving on. Something like the 4 existing kits + 2 new vehicles to finish off the Enforcers within the first $100k (lots and lots of hard plastic, under $1/mini roughly), then move on to other factions and do the same with those.
They really need to focus on one faction at a time and fully complete it before moving on, or doing random scattershot stretches.
Could see Warpath potentially funding a full 8 factions in hard plastic if they do it right and keep the ball rolling with blocks of $250k (5 new HIPS kits) to fully fund a faction before moving on to another.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
 scarletsquig wrote:Agreed, hopefully with Warpath they lock in a really good deal on the Enforcer army first, before moving on. Something like the 4 existing kits + 2 new vehicles to finish off the Enforcers within the first $100k (lots and lots of hard plastic, under $1/mini roughly), then move on to other factions and do the same with those.
They really need to focus on one faction at a time and fully complete it before moving on, or doing random scattershot stretchs.
No, no, no. That's exactly the problem. It means forcing everyone to pledge for Enforcers and just hope that something else gets unlocked later.
Their initial target needs to be high, say 250k?... and fund 3-4 armies (at least core infantry) in one go. That way people can pledge for the faction they want right off the bat, and if it doesn't get funded, they don't pay anything.
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Post by: CptJake
I would argue starting with Enforcers is the absolute wrong way to go. Too many folks already have purchased a gak ton of plastic Enforcers via the DeadZone KS projects and retail releases. They need to start with an army that folks don't have yet. Yes, they need to get Enforcer vehicles in early, even as part of the project opening, but the if the project seems Enforcer-centric from the start I think it would be a mistake.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Big complaint early on was too much Enforcer stuff.
If that happens in Warpath, it's not good.
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Post by: judgedoug
I'm still flabbergasted about the complaints.
Would the consensus to have been another Deadzone 1 style, million-dollar plus, multi-wave, huge variability in sculpt quality, mispacked nightmare?
We got a tight, shortly run Kickstarter with easily attainable goals within a reasonable timeframe with much less chances of Mantic-style QC messups.
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
Has anyone seen a painted Urban Demolisher? I'm going to start on mine today, and would like a little inspiration, but no one has touched theirs as far as I can tell.
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Post by: .Mikes.
This must be your first day on the internet. Welcome! Over here you'll find videos of cats battling doorstops, and that dark patch over there is 4chan. We never speak of that place.
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Post by: NTRabbit
MasterSlowPoke wrote:Has anyone seen a painted Urban Demolisher? I'm going to start on mine today, and would like a little inspiration, but no one has touched theirs as far as I can tell.
Mine is scheduled to be painted by the end of the month, but 50/50 whether I get it done on time. Not seen a painted one in the wild either.
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Post by: judgedoug
 .Mikes. wrote:
This must be your first day on the internet. Welcome! Over here you'll find videos of cats battling doorstops, and that dark patch over there is 4chan. We never speak of that place.
Hah. I understand that people in general love to complain in the direction of nullspace, but I reserve the right to never understand the reasonings why.
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Post by: Alpharius
It must be hard, difficult, strange and beautiful over there in Your World!
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Post by: Earth Dragon
The same reason you are complaining about the complainers.
Anonymity allows nerds in particular to be something they are afraid to be in real life: assertive and sometimes downright aggressive.
Other then that, Mantic had some complaints coming. No one is actually sure how they are going to "fix" anything. About half of the opinions I say posted on how they should improve campaigns would make it even worse then it is now.
The losing side should have the advantage in the next fight?!? Please......keep your training wheels. Having safety nets to ensure people progress faster when falling behind is always welcome, understandable, and quite frankly realistic (when you are challenged more, you learn more). Downright giving the advantage to the person making the poor decisions the battle before is just absurd, and maybe they should stick to playing the computer on easy mode in their video games.
If they turn campaigns into just a predetermined series of fights, with no true consequences, and "Only the last battle matters"......no thank you. But that's what some are asking for.
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Post by: Compel
Earth Dragon wrote:
Anonymity allows nerds in particular to be something they are afraid to be in real life: assertive and sometimes downright aggressive.
Ever read newspaper letter pages, or even their comment boards? Anonymity allows *anyone* to be jerks. A certain percentage of people in the world throughout every hobby and interest anywhere are jerks. And that's about that.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Earth Dragon, what are you talking about?
Who do you believe were the "losers" of this Kickstarter campaign, and how did they lose?
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Post by: GrimDork
I think that last part was referencing someone's desired changes to the campaign system? I didn't follow the comments all that closely I guess.
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Post by: Talking Banana
Ninja'd by Grimdork.
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Post by: warboss
 judgedoug wrote:
We got a tight, shortly run Kickstarter with easily attainable goals within a reasonable timeframe with much less chances of Mantic-style QC messups.
Is there any reason to think that beyond just pie in the sky optimism? I'm seriously asking. Have they been better in that regard with the smaller total KS with similar number of new figs/sprues?
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Post by: SeanDrake
 warboss wrote: judgedoug wrote:
We got a tight, shortly run Kickstarter with easily attainable goals within a reasonable timeframe with much less chances of Mantic-style QC messups.
Is there any reason to think that beyond just pie in the sky optimism? I'm seriously asking. Have they been better in that regard with the smaller total KS with similar number of new figs/sprues?
Well personal experience says dreadball extreme was delivered to myself with no missing parts and good sculpts in a good material.
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Post by: CptJake
warboss wrote: judgedoug wrote:
We got a tight, shortly run Kickstarter with easily attainable goals within a reasonable timeframe with much less chances of Mantic-style QC messups.
Is there any reason to think that beyond just pie in the sky optimism? I'm seriously asking. Have they been better in that regard with the smaller total KS with similar number of new figs/sprues?
When they ship spues, especially when they are in plastic bags sealed at the factory, they tend to no be missing parts*. And less types of bags to jam into boxes may mean less error in packing.
*I did have Mantic spues delivered with parts that had fallen off somewhere and were missing though.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
They totally forgot to send bases with the all-plastic DZ wave 3 tho.
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Post by: CptJake
I thought they sent out the bases with wave 2 for the 'to be delivered' spues.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Only for the sprues that should have been in Wave 2 in the first place. Anything paid for after Wave 2 shipped came without bases.
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Post by: CptJake
Got ya, I didn't order anything after wave 2, so my wave 3 was just stuff that had been previously ordered.
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Post by: judgedoug
warboss wrote: judgedoug wrote:
We got a tight, shortly run Kickstarter with easily attainable goals within a reasonable timeframe with much less chances of Mantic-style QC messups.
Is there any reason to think that beyond just pie in the sky optimism? I'm seriously asking. Have they been better in that regard with the smaller total KS with similar number of new figs/sprues?
Dreadball Extreme seems to have shipped with much, much less QC issues than any previous Mantic KS.
I feel Mars Attacks would have been the same way if they hadn't buckled to the few loud complaints and introduced a dozen pledge levels and add-ons. The only issue I personally had with Mars Attacks was one of my Antenociti's Workshop resin add-ons was messed up.
Dungeon Saga has the potential to be very well managed/QC'ed as the number of pledge levels, add-ons and swaps were severely limited. It, like this Deadzone KS, were well managed, tightly run, and didn't go crazy in the amount of stuff to be produced (DZ1, Dreadball S1-S3 with varying materials, Kings of War with tiny stretch goals). I seriously believe anyone saying that this kickstarter should have been bigger/had more stuff/etc has zero knowledge about how really ANY large kickstarter, fething Sedition Wars, can go right off the rails with delays and bad QC.
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Post by: Azazelx
 lord_blackfang wrote:Only for the sprues that should have been in Wave 2 in the first place. Anything paid for after Wave 2 shipped came without bases.
gak. I forgot to look for bases. I've got the W3 stuff in a separate tub, so it'll be easy to check. What's the correct Mantic contact email for this stuff these days? I know it changed when they "finished" the KS. I'm not paying for a pile of bases - I ordered a ton of sprues for W3.
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Post by: pretre
Submit the missing parts form and the correct person will contact you
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Post by: DaveC
The new DOG drone looks a lot better
The Shredders/Ravagers have also been redesigned to be leaner and meaner.
Terraton Shock Trooper
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Post by: GrimDork
For sure. I like the other two as well though I dunno why the terraton has to hold his weapons so awkwardly.
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Post by: warboss
Do they have opposable thumbs? I can't really tell from that pic but that might be why.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I think I'm okay with all 3 of these designs.
Of course, I was okay with the original ones as well.
May grab a few extra Teratons because... well, because.
I like the new Ravagers, but then again I liked the big fat heavy ones too. Hopefully they're still going to be a bit larger than the regular Veermyn. Curious as to what their drills are going to be like after the redesign. At least it was a bit more plausible for the big heavy one to be carrying big heavy drills.
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Post by: pretre
Codex eldar craft worlds may be the best thing to ever happen to mantic. People are gonna need a lot of jet bikes.
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Post by: warboss
Did that stretch goal that everyone knew would be on the sprue anyways unlock for heavy weapon bike upgrades? Sounds like those are a must over in the eldar thread.
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Post by: GrimDork
Yeah, it did. At least it was crammed in between a larger stretch goal but yeah, sideways glance at that goal But uhh... this is a kickstarter that isn't gonna be shipping till January if we're lucky, would eldar players actually be interested in these? I mean... won't the flavor of the month build have changed a few times by then? Not trying to be snarky so much, I don't follow 40k releases and meta very closely any more, just kind of figuring that they'd have fallen out of favor over half a year from now.
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Post by: pretre
I was mostly kidding. But yeah, probably too long or most of them. Still, got a year of use out of them. 
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Post by: darkPrince010
I am waaay more excited about the DOG, even though Zoids aren't normally my favorite. Definitely an improvement, and may encourage another $20 out of me for more Pathfinders and the DOGs as well.
I certainly won't be complaining now if DOGs get a unique unit entry in Warpath.
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Post by: Red_Starrise
I didn't actually mind the original dog done. Looked a lot like what a modern version would look like & would probably have seen use in my modern US Army zombie hunters.
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Post by: CptJake
 Red_Starrise wrote:I didn't actually mind the original dog done. Looked a lot like what a modern version would look like & would probably have seen use in my modern US Army zombie hunters.
The body was decent, the legs would have limited the mobility way too much for it to be a design that would work well with moderns in my opinion.
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Post by: warboss
That dog drone is a huge improvement.
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Post by: privateer4hire
Agreed. The original looked like they glued together bits from a battlezone accessory sprue and a heavy weapon from an enforcer.
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Post by: Red_Starrise
Question: I've heard several people discussing that Mantic will be shipping the non-KS introduced items separately from the things new to this KS. For example if I ordered an Enforcers starter set & the Deadzone & Contagion set as well as the KS pledge level that those will ship first & then in Jan the rest will ship. Is there any truth to this? Because I know several people on the fence about Deadzone so if I could get them into the game for much cheaper (say for example if multiple people want different starters it makes them about $16.50/ea, that's such a tiny investment for a game it's hilarious) but if they're waiting til Jan I fear that they'll catch the GW tagline of "it won't last, we're the only constant in tabletop" & panic (as so many gamers do these days).
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Post by: Bolognesus
Only those existing components not part of a pledge level will be shipped ASAP; those included in pledge levels ship with the rest of the pledge level package.
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Post by: JMMelo
Does anyone know if we can upgrade our pledge in the manager? I was in for just scenery, but got some extra cash now and was thinking to go up...
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Post by: pretre
JMMelo wrote:Does anyone know if we can upgrade our pledge in the manager? I was in for just scenery, but got some extra cash now and was thinking to go up...
In the past, you have been able to upgrade your pledge significantly. I'm not sure if they will let you do another pledge level, but you'll definitely be able to get a la carte items.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
JMMelo wrote:Does anyone know if we can upgrade our pledge in the manager? I was in for just scenery, but got some extra cash now and was thinking to go up...
Absolutely you can.
Mantic confirmed you can go with the higher pledge levels.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Saw this show up on Facebook from Brueckenkopf Online.
With a taste of things to come?
The original link, for those who read German. Some shots of Abyssals, Dreadball MVPs, and Dungeon Saga stuff there as well.
http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=141126&cpage=1
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Post by: GrimDork
Jetbike appears to be doing what the concept render said it would, so those should turn out fine.
Is that second thing a drop ship? Oh lord. TIme to start hawking other minis and lining up a buyer for an organ or two...
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
It most certainly looks like a dropship.
Hard plastic dropships that aren't covered in Aquila and skulls are probably going to be a VERY popular item when Mantic get around to producing this.
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Post by: .Mikes.
I can see a lot appearing on Infinity boards for a start.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
If it's a plausible enough design I can see it ending up in just about every near future/ hard scifi game out there.
Hell, I'd get one and I'm not even really interested in humans for the most part, but it sure would be a swell toy to have to play with.
I was thinking it'd go great with my MERCS stuff too. Or my Dreamforge guys. Or my Enforcers if I ever paint some...
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Post by: darkPrince010
Ooooooh. Count me in as excited for that, especially since the teaser's undercarriage looks to not be a single piece. It might be a relic of the 3D printing process, but if the troop seating area isn't a mandatory inbuilt feature, I could see something like that carrying guns or a payload underneath it. It also looks like it might be slightly "chunky," which is awesome because I prefer that look when not taken to extremes.
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Post by: DaveC
Warpath Alpha rules will be available to BoW backstage members on May 22nd no word on general release yet.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/vlog/book-infinity-place-warpath-2-alpha-access-backstage/
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Post by: warboss
Five minutes later over on 4chan? That'd be my guess.
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Post by: GrimDork
Warpath alpha rules are such a rockstar that I need a backstage pass to see them? Hmm.
Herp.
Derp.
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Post by: Tyr13
Supporting news sites is all well and good... but this is just at the detriment of everyone else... :/
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Post by: .Mikes.
We've been waiting this long. I can wait an extra few weeks,
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Post by: GrimDork
Frankly, I quit waiting awhile back. I thought deadzone was going to be warpath, backed anyway. At this point I'm not sure if I even have any enthusiasm left for the eventual warpath release, its been strung out too far. I'm sure it'll be all well and good but ehh. Meh. This kind of thing certainly doesn't enhance my enthusiasm.
Kind of waiting for the 18th reveal-fest or whatever they call it to be a no show like half of their other [mantic game] week, where they forget it for 2-3 days and then say nothing new.
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Post by: Azazelx
I do wonder why rules go to BoW and photos of new stuff come off BK-online while KS backers get feth-all in terms of meaningful updates...
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Post by: .Mikes.
It was mentioned somewhere last week that someone else (called Rich, I believe) had been hired to help Dave Symonds with custoemr support. I don't suppose anyone has this person's email address, do they?
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Post by: .Mikes.
Awesome, cheers mate!
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Post by: timetowaste85
Thanks. I'm gonna give him a shout as well since I had account issues and they're not reopening the DS pledge. Tried Stew already, but I'm not even sure if he's still there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
When do we get the pledge manager for Deadzone: Infestation, by the way?
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Stewart's email seems to be redirected to Dave Symonds. Is Mantic facing a lot of staff turn-over?
I still haven't heard whether or not they will reopen the KoW2 PM. If Rich Armstrong gives you an answer, please share it with us.
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Post by: Baragash
Stew is still there.
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Post by: .Mikes.
I emailed Rich, got a repy in the same business day. Great turnaround.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
What did he say about the pledge manager reopening?
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Post by: .Mikes.
Dunno, I didn't ask. I needed to follow up on an order.
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Post by: Azazelx
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:Stewart's email seems to be redirected to Dave Symonds. Is Mantic facing a lot of staff turn-over?
I still haven't heard whether or not they will reopen the KoW2 PM. If Rich Armstrong gives you an answer, please share it with us.
They said they'd be doing that earlier. If they do, I'll get myself a hardcover rulebook, etc and probably some not-Daemonettes. If not, I'll just use the PDFs and stick with my existing models.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
 Azazelx wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:Stewart's email seems to be redirected to Dave Symonds. Is Mantic facing a lot of staff turn-over?
I still haven't heard whether or not they will reopen the KoW2 PM. If Rich Armstrong gives you an answer, please share it with us.
They said they'd be doing that earlier. If they do, I'll get myself a hardcover rulebook, etc and probably some not-Daemonettes. If not, I'll just use the PDFs and stick with my existing models.
That's pretty much where I'm at.
If I can't buy the models through the PM, I won't be buying them at all.
Well, maybe through Miniature Market's clearance machine.
EDIT: I don't know about the reule books, though. I've read and re-read the KoW 1st Edition rules a lot recently while working on my armies based on the lists you wrote based on the 1st Edition book. I feel committed.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Rich helped me out! I'm golden.
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Post by: GrimDork
Woowoo!
I still can't decide what I'll be doing with my extra pledge credit. I forget exactly which pledge level I had or how much I spent overall, but I seem to remember the value $70. Probably what I pledged for steel warriors before thinking that I don't like painting big armies of stuff any more.
Its a lot of jetbikes, or a lot of steel warriors. Those seem to be the strongest kits so far unless the veermyn kits really shine.. and we may not even know that till after the PM.
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Post by: krystalking
So, the full Enforcer Aircraft has been released on Mantic's blog, and it is amazing.
The Alpha rules are supposedly getting a general release soon, we'll have to wait and see.
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Post by: GrimDork
The thing where beasts of war got them first was kind of... dumb? To me at least. I guess BoW does feature their products which probably helps mantic out so some kind of reciprocal backscratchery must be accounted for.
And what a dropship it is!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
All the sharp, edges make it look like it's made out of Lego. Not a deal breaker, but less ideal than it would be with the HIPS enforcers' buttery-soft creases.
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Post by: Azazelx
The rulebook will be available as a free PDF regardless. So I'll likely be using that for most everything anyway. The hardcover would be a thing that's just nice to have. Then again, it would probably be cheaper to buy via online retail, given the silly-expensive shipping price they slapped on it for those outside the UK/US.
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Post by: warboss
For the most part, I like the dropship. The only thing I'd change is to make those end wing pieces either bigger like engines or just make them a slanted wing with the hardpoint underneath instead of the middle ground it currently is. YMMV.
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Post by: Azazelx
Yeah, it looks decent. My point is that seems to have been the only new thing of any interest from the entire week.
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Post by: .Mikes.
I'm loving the drop ship. I also like the modular approach to it: drop the troop comartment and replace it with ordnance, et voila, a whole new ship. It's like if the Tracy's had decided to stop being pussies and weaponised Thunderbird 2.
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Post by: krystalking
So, I've been reading the Q&A for the Alpha rules, and I'm discovering something bad:
The Alpha rules require basing in teams.
For example, a squad of Corporation Marines might require two to five per base.
I personally don't think multi-basing works for sci-fi.
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Post by: .Mikes.
It doesn't require multi basing.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
It's just unplayable without it. But let's keep that wreck in the other thread.
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Post by: Baragash
No matter how many times you assert this it still isn't true. It is also much quicker than moving the same amount of models in 40k.
That is not to say I necessarily believe that either the system or the alpha rules are any where near perfect, but the amount of gak I'm reading from people that haven't played several games with the rules is getting silly.
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Post by: Daedleh
Why should people have to play several games before knowing they don't like it? If I have to take the choice between playing a game that uses mechanics I don't like several times before forming an opinion, or not wasting my time with it - guess what I'm going to do.
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Post by: Tyr13
What Daedleh said. You cant sell a game on the basis of "Youll like it after a few games, trust me!". If your game isnt at least somewhat appealing from the get-go, youre not going to sell your game.
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Post by: krystalking
Yeah, I think I'm sticking with my 1.0 and 2.0 rules hybrid, it's worked out well, and as one guy put it:
You'll win the fantasy fans, but the sci-fi guys will take it or leave it.
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Post by: .Mikes.
 Tyr13 wrote:What Daedleh said. You cant sell a game on the basis of "Youll like it after a few games, trust me!".
Which is how many of us are already selling KoW to WH players.
Remember; the rules are in alpha and Mantic have requested feedback. Play a game or two and provide your thoughts to them. Help WP become a game you would like.
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Post by: Daedleh
One of the frustrating things is that any kind of negative feedback is seen as trolling and "non-constructive".
I asked the question whether 28mm was really the right scale to be using for "mass battles" and Mantics response was for me to post constructive feedback. It seems like they're not interested in any feedback other than "wow this is great":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc9_GDoWI4
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Post by: pretre
 Daedleh wrote:One of the frustrating things is that any kind of negative feedback is seen as trolling and "non-constructive".
I asked the question whether 28mm was really the right scale to be using for "mass battles" and Mantics response was for me to post constructive feedback. It seems like they're not interested in any feedback other than "wow this is great":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc9_GDoWI4
Well, considering they have a crud-ton of money sunk into 28mm miniatures, I doubt they are going to switch to another scale. I can see their point in that not being constructive as it requires them to throw out all the work of the last 5 years and start over.
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Post by: privateer4hire
Daedleh wrote:One of the frustrating things is that any kind of negative feedback is seen as trolling and "non-constructive".
I asked the question whether 28mm was really the right scale to be using for "mass battles" and Mantics response was for me to post constructive feedback. It seems like they're not interested in any feedback other than "wow this is great":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc9_GDoWI4
Skip it. I'll just stick with playing Dreadball.
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Post by: agnosto
Daedleh wrote:One of the frustrating things is that any kind of negative feedback is seen as trolling and "non-constructive".
I asked the question whether 28mm was really the right scale to be using for "mass battles" and Mantics response was for me to post constructive feedback. It seems like they're not interested in any feedback other than "wow this is great":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc9_GDoWI4
Well, at least a couple of the upper-management ARE former GW employees so......
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Post by: Compel
Daedleh wrote:One of the frustrating things is that any kind of negative feedback is seen as trolling and "non-constructive".
I wonder whether the answer of, "To be honest, no, but that's what the players want and what the market wants and we're a business, so, shrug" would have been seen as more acceptable by people.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Yeah, honestly saying the scale is a bad choice for the game when 28mm is what they wanted their scale to be...that's not really constructive. Rather, it's more like destructive criticism. Instead, you could have phrased it "this rule doesn't seem to convey to the 28mm scale too well, but if we make an adjustment here in X, it'll convey perfectly to the scale you aim to use." That would be constructive, and they'd be idiots calling it non-constructive.
And yes, if you convey it in that way and they brush it off, I'll wag my finger at them for ignoring CC if they haven't tried it already.
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Post by: darkPrince010
Daedleh wrote:One of the frustrating things is that any kind of negative feedback is seen as trolling and "non-constructive".
This has been my experience as well. Several aspects of and mechanics for WP seem to be oddly resilient to fan feedback, and it strikes me as very odd that they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water when they completely ignored the design aspects of WP1 and WP2 when formulating WP3.
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Post by: .Mikes.
From the feedback thread on the main forum:
Hey everyone!
Wow, what a great response, and it's not even been a week yet . Thank you all so much for your comments, they are honestly much appreciated, whatever your opinion may be. For anyone who hasn't noticed, I have gone through the thread and added my responses directly into all of your posts so that the questions and answers are in one place for easy reference. I am really look forward to reading more. I would like to note that game reports such as the excellently detailed one from Bombad are unbelievably useful for me to understand exactly what people are experiencing. As most of the reports have stated, the game's mechanics may just surprise you, so it's well worth giving it a go. Of course, we need people to not be put off before they play, so I will be using all of the comments to refine how the game is written as well.
If any of you have seen comments posted elsewhere, please ask everyone to come and use this thread - if we can keep everything in one place it will ensure I don't miss anything vital.
Now, I think it's only fair that I address the elephant in the room - the concept of teams and the perceived issue of "multi-basing". I will repeat what I've said in the individual comments - this is a massively subjective issue, and it's an issue that I was aware of before I posted the rules. However, I wanted to gauge the response before addressing it. As it seems to have divided the community, I've got some solutions for us to look at.
This version of Warpath is a "mass-battle" game, with the abstraction that comes with such a thing. Personally, this is what I want to play, but it would be foolish of me to thing that this would work for everyone. While the rules do physically work at a "platoon/company-level" game of 30-50 figures per side, it is apparent that they don't provide the fix that people are looking for. This is of course a hobby, where people have invested time and money in their miniatures, and may want a simple and fast game whilst retaining the individuality of their soldiers.
As I say, I've had this in mind while developing the mass-battle rules, and therefore have made efforts to make the game as scalable as possible. As proof of concept, here in the office we've played some games of Deadzone, but using the Warpath rules. To scale the game down, I just moved the smallest playable unit from a team of five to a single figure, and adjusted the stats appropriately. Of course there were some other tweaks with regard to terrain, line of sight etc, but with just half a page of notes on what would change, it worked. You'll be pleased to hear that the mechanics scale down just fine...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my reading of the feedback on the non-team-related mechanics of the game is mostly positive, so would I be right in thinking that taking these mechanics and translating them into a game with individual casualty removal would fix the perceived problems? Essentially, each team within a unit would be replaced by a model with the appropriate statline, but otherwise the game would largely work the same. I won't go into too much detail here - let me know your thoughts and if that scratches the itch, so to speak, I'll get it written up and put out for feedback.
For those of you who do like what we've put out so far, don't despair. This new option is not a replacement. The "mass-battle" game will still remain as it is, and we will essentially create two sets of rules built off of the same engine, depending on what sort of game you're interested in. This was something that Ronnie has been planning for a while now - we want to have a solution for every gamer, whatever their poison, to transition from the other games out there and into the Warpath universe. Creating something that eases the transition for fans of mid-level battle games can only be a good thing, and who knows, those fans may even switch to the current rules from time to time when they want to play an apocalyptic battle with loads of soldiers on the board.
I'll stop waffling on now. Let me know what you think, and keep the questions coming.
Cheers guys!
Stew
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Post by: Talking Banana
I wanted to ask here, because I may be remembering this wrong, but was there ever a statement during the Deadzone Infestation KS campaign that Lockdown pledges would not be charged more shipping than Quarantine pledges?
I've checked the KS front page and can't find any such guarantee, but somehow its in the back of my head. Am I making this up, or was this ever stated?
Just asking because the latest KS update seems to hint at a sizable shipping price increase for Lockdown pledges in particular.
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Post by: DaveC
Nothing wrong with your memory (or mine ) - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-infestation-sci-fi-skirmish-game/posts/1186434
All in all, with the Plague Aberration funded and included, that gives you an exceptional $55 off pledging for Quarantine and all of the other items separately - that's the equivalent of one Industrial District and Gaming Mat for FREE - which will get better if more stretch goals are broken. Shipping costs for this package are also exactly the same as they are for Quarantine.
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Post by: Talking Banana
Thanks for that, DaveC. Good to know I'm not losing my mind.
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Post by: GrimDork
But the potentially stinky thing is that they also said the thing you're worried about today in the update. So I still dunno if that promise is gonna get honored. Guess we'll find out once all of the invites are out (they aren't all out right).
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Post by: Talking Banana
I'm actually cautiously optimistic now that the promise will be kept. I don't have an official invite yet, but I went to the pledge manager site and had a poke around anyway.
Currently when I ring up a Lockdown pledge by itself it's registering $15 shipping to the USA, which is the same shipping price it gives for a Quarantine pledge to the USA.
Again, I'm just going to the website uninvited and clicking around (not hacking, anyone can do it by typing the address), so take this with a grain of salt. ( https://pledgemanager.manticdigital.com/deadzone/)
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Post by: DaveC
Yeah playing around with that seems to confirm it's the same price for Quarantine and Lockdown
The prices for Lockdown seem to be
UK $15
US $15
EU $15
New Zealand/Australia $30
South America $45
China $45
Japan $45
Adding about $200 in extras bumps the cost as follows
UK - no change
EU +$5
US +$15
South America +$20
New Zealand/Australia +$30
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Sounds fantastic to me. Most UK sellers on eBay are charging that kind of money to ship one character blister these days.
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Post by: .Mikes.
Does anyone have a link to the super-useful model tracker spreadhseet someone made for INfestation which told you which models you'd be getting with various pledges and add ons?
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Post by: pretre
DaveC wrote:Yeah playing around with that seems to confirm it's the same price for Quarantine and Lockdown
The prices for Lockdown seem to be
UK $15
US $15
EU $15
New Zealand/Australia $30
South America $45
China $45
Japan $45
Adding about $200 in extras bumps the cost as follows
UK - no change
EU +$5
US +$15
South America +$20
New Zealand/Australia +$30
Thanks, DaveC!
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Post by: pretre
Lockdown plus extras ended up being $30.
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Post by: GrimDork
Huh so I only need to pick $40 of addons with my 70 over. Cool, actually, that will make deciding a bit easier... 70 bucks with of FF was too much but 40 is probably just right.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
I'm spending a lot less than i would have if they hadn't published the Warpath beta.
Which kinda makes me think GW is on to something with the secrecy and all.
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Post by: GrimDork
Well no actually.. I budgeted 15 dollars for shipping already so on the outside of needing 15 more I still have at least $55 to spend. I'm just not sure I need 50 total forge fathers... I mean sure if I'm trying to play warpath with them someday but just for painting... dunno.
Of course if I'm looking at this just for painting... should have stopped at lockdown+shipping lol.
Ehh screw it, original plan will remain: 40 more steel warriors, 2 more jetbikes, and after the shipping adjustment I'll use the last 5 bucks for one of the accessory sprues I guess.
I think I'm more excited about having it done than I am about the stuff right now
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Post by: .Mikes.
What a difference a week makes. Due to the exchange rate plummeting after the Greek No vote the actual cost to my additional pledge went up nearly $40.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
.Mikes. wrote:What a difference a week makes. Due to the exchange rate plummeting after the Greek No vote the actual cost to my additional pledge went up nearly $40.
Sadly for me, the dollar/yen exchange rate hasn't changed at all...
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Post by: Talking Banana
In case people are wondering how shipping pricing is being calculated, I have a small case study:
Lockdown + 20 Steel Warriors = $15 USA shipping
Lockdown + 40 Steel Warriors = $30 USA shipping
(I went with 20.)
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Post by: lord_blackfang
.Mikes. wrote:What a difference a week makes. Due to the exchange rate plummeting after the Greek No vote the actual cost to my additional pledge went up nearly $40.
Are you saying the exchange rate between $AUS and $US changed because of Greece in one week?  Cause the EUR only dropped by 1% since the vote.
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Post by: GrimDork
@Vermonter, I almost ordered less stuff myself but I didn't want to spend a lot of time trying to figure out a batch of addons that could eat my credit AND fit in the smaller shipping budget. Time is money, as they say...
Had I not already pre-pledged the extra, I most likely wouldn't have added the extra forge fathers only to incur the extra shipping
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Post by: .Mikes.
lord_blackfang wrote: .Mikes. wrote:What a difference a week makes. Due to the exchange rate plummeting after the Greek No vote the actual cost to my additional pledge went up nearly $40.
Are you saying the exchange rate between $AUS and $US changed because of Greece in one week? Cause the EUR only dropped by 1% since the vote.
The AUS dropped nearly 3% in one day after the vote and was dropping steadily the week before. Doesn't seem too long agoa it was $1,10 AU to every $1 US.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Well, I turned in the PM today. 350 eur spent on Infestation altogether. Lock Down + another two $35 terrain sets, some extra Enforcers and a few odds and ends.
I hope the $20 for 20 deals will appear again in the Warpath KS, I'd love to get 3 packs of everything but I just couldn't this month.
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Post by: GrimDork
Yeah, I really liked the 20/20 deal, though I didn't feel like I wanted a veermyn army or an overwhelming number of pathfinders. When warpath comes around though, may be inclined to pick up 20/20 for a lot of the basic infantry units for the various factions, should they manage to impress me that is... double or even steel warrior grade triple kits would go a long way towards that.
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Post by: Mymearan
Well, last chance to get in on the PM today guys!
I ended up getting 5 industrial accessory sprues, 2 dreadball scenery sprues and 5 Pathfinders. Won't ever need more than that for Deadzone and am i right in assuming they are single pose?
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Post by: GrimDork
Pathfinders? No way, they're hard plastic sprues (probably a few extra bits, but not as many as GW sprues tend to have). Some of the arms/legs will have specific mated pairs you will have to use unless you want to cut/sculpt, but overall you should have some options and poseability. I've got to stay away, I added crap on top of lockdown... silly me... I *definitely* do NOT need to order more. Gotta leave some room on the shelf for Warpath
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Post by: scarletsquig
BTW, in case anyone is wondering if the Deadzone rules are going to be made better, I can confirm that the new edition is a major overhaul that keeps the core of the previous gameplay intact while cutting down on unnecessary complexity.
Basically everything that I had a problem with in the old rules (pretty much identical to what the majority opinion is) has been fixed.
It is everything that v1 of the rules should have been. And this time there is a rules committee (with yours truly on it) to make sure the factions are properly balanced on-release.
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Post by: GrimDork
Cool. Thanks for that update I do like the basic mechanics for DZ so it will be interesting to see what streamlining has happened.
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Post by: Slinky
Sounds great! I do enjoy playing DZ, so if it's much the same with the rough edges polished off, that should be super 
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Post by: Paradigm
scarletsquig wrote:BTW, in case anyone is wondering if the Deadzone rules are going to be made better, I can confirm that the new edition is a major overhaul that keeps the core of the previous gameplay intact while cutting down on unnecessary complexity.
Basically everything that I had a problem with in the old rules (pretty much identical to what the majority opinion is) has been fixed.
It is everything that v1 of the rules should have been. And this time there is a rules committee (with yours truly on it) to make sure the factions are properly balanced on-release.
Will the new rules still be compatible with existing cards, or will there be new ones that replaced the existing decks?
Are there any plans for the new core rules to be free like KoW?
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Sounds good, ss. Will be interesting to see if there's any convergent evolution between DZ2 and my house rules.
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Post by: Compel
Rebs are playable? *Gasps*
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Post by: blooddave
I always thought the Rebs themselves were fine, but their mission deck was WAY too difficult.
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Post by: scarletsquig
 Paradigm wrote: scarletsquig wrote:BTW, in case anyone is wondering if the Deadzone rules are going to be made better, I can confirm that the new edition is a major overhaul that keeps the core of the previous gameplay intact while cutting down on unnecessary complexity.
Basically everything that I had a problem with in the old rules (pretty much identical to what the majority opinion is) has been fixed.
It is everything that v1 of the rules should have been. And this time there is a rules committee (with yours truly on it) to make sure the factions are properly balanced on-release.
Will the new rules still be compatible with existing cards, or will there be new ones that replaced the existing decks?
Are there any plans for the new core rules to be free like KoW?
Hmm, how to answer while sticking to an NDA...
1. If one were to make an educated guess, the fate of cards in future editions of the game can probably be ascertained by an evaluation of the items for sale (or lack thereof) in the Deadzone Infestation Kickstarter. Given their current integration into the game and the additional tactical choice they generate (with an element of randomness), it would also be remiss of the development team to not include a superior replacement for them should they not be making an appearance.
2. I don't actually know at the moment! The previous version had the demo game as a free download, so I'd imagine there will at least be that.
There are already public rumours floating around about the first question (I heard them several months ago, along with a bunch of not-currently-accurate stuff like the grid being removed), so I don't mind adding some extra hints.
I am also keen to start playing with my Rebs again, they're the only faction where I have every figure fully painted. 12 losses and 2 wins later, I finally gave up on them.
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