warboss wrote: Never heard of Cubicle 7 although I wouldn't consider myself knowledgable about more recent (past 15 years) companies in the industry. Regardless, it's officially a pattern now with the company that develops the 40kRPG to hand it off within a year.
As a long time Warhammer fluff addict and occasional gamer being really enjoying the 4th Ed WFRP, they have been working very hard on the theme, expanding the background and style. Imagery is also good. System is a bit marmite but close enough to the original 1st adn 2nd edition to be conversion fodder.
Age of Sigmar looks good with some of the primary world building authors like Josh Reynolds being invoved.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Are Cubicle 7 a larger or more well-established company than Ulysses? Perhaps Ulysses decided they couldn't / didn't want to support the game the way GW wanted them to, so let it go.
No, not even close. Ulisses Spiele is one of the largest publishers of RPGs out there. Their NA branch is fairly new though.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Are Cubicle 7 a larger or more well-established company than Ulysses? Perhaps Ulysses decided they couldn't / didn't want to support the game the way GW wanted them to, so let it go.
No, not even close. Ulisses Spiele is one of the largest publishers of RPGs out there. Their NA branch is fairly new though.
Which means they may struggle to produce stuff in the english language at the rate and scope that 40k demands. Cubical 7 is a pretty big company in the english speaking world, they produce in addition to the warhammer properties two seperate editions of a middle earth RPG.
...that isn't actually notable, however. Quite a few companies had Middle Earth RPGs over the years, most of which didn't last very long. And one of those is just a compatibility book for 5e D&D (which... yeah. No need to comment on that)
Looking at the history of the company and the founders, they went a little nuts on licensed products (Dr Who and LotR) and almost plowed themselves under- and had to leash themselves to the computer game company that does the 'Sniper Elite' series. They've apparently bought themselves out of that relationship, but their product list isn't big or inspiring.
I certainly wouldn't call them a big company in the RPG realm. It's just that most of them are tiny (including the Wizards division that does D&D, which is about 10 people tops, these days) and licenses are often traps.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Are Cubicle 7 a larger or more well-established company than Ulysses? Perhaps Ulysses decided they couldn't / didn't want to support the game the way GW wanted them to, so let it go.
No, not even close. Ulisses Spiele is one of the largest publishers of RPGs out there. Their NA branch is fairly new though.
Which means they may struggle to produce stuff in the english language at the rate and scope that 40k demands. Cubical 7 is a pretty big company in the english speaking world, they produce in addition to the warhammer properties two seperate editions of a middle earth RPG.
They certainly do not struggle, just look at how much Dark Eye material there is in English. If anything C7 struggles to get stuff done, starter set still not available for WFRP 4th despite the core book being done for sometime. Compare WFRP 4th launch with W&G, W&G released faster and with more stuff.
I think it likely has to do with Ulisses purchasing the Myth IP. Ulisses is primarily a publisher, they own few IPs of their own and I suspect this is intentional. I.E. they don't want to overload themselves.
By contrast C7 seems to never meet their given deadlines, had a One Ring book that was pdf with a supposed physical release to follow that never materialized, etc etc. They also handle a mountain load of IPs.
C7 does tend to miss deadlines. They've gotten a lot better with communication on the WFRPG front for those that have pre-orders but I will say they do put out some very nice quality books. Art is great, layout is good print quality is good. You're not getting something that was rushed out.
They certainly do not struggle, just look at how much Dark Eye material there is in English.
i would say Ulisses NA are/were struggling to keep up. The Dark Eye got a lot of material on initial release in 2016, but by now, people have been waiting for new product for more than a year. A Kickstarter to release the big magic expansion and several adventures has been pushed back twice already and will hopefully go live soon. Even then, it will still be months before any new TDE supplements are available. W&G was worse off even with a lot of promised content that didn't seem to materialize after the basic book release. They were clearly doing too many things at the same time.
The initial range of products will be a revised reprint of the Wrath & Glory Core Rulebook
Now, they could technically just be referring to the incorporation of errata/faq into the rulebook but in my experience companies don't typically call it revised when they do it but rather just call it a second printing and simply note the inclusion of the errata/faq separately. Calling it "revised" makes me think of something more akin to an edition halfstep ala d&d 3.5 where there are substantial rules changes in some parts that go beyond just clarification. If that is the case, it sucks to be an early adopter for W&G...
The initial range of products will be a revised reprint of the Wrath & Glory Core Rulebook
Now, they could technically just be referring to the incorporation of errata/faq into the rulebook but in my experience companies don't typically call it revised when they do it but rather just call it a second printing and simply note the inclusion of the errata/faq separately. Calling it "revised" makes me think of something more akin to an edition halfstep ala d&d 3.5 where there are substantial rules changes in some parts that go beyond just clarification. If that is the case, it sucks to be an early adopter for W&G...
I kinda hope it is. I've only heard of bad reviews from W&G so far, the major critique I heard was that apparently a Guardsman (I can't remember if it needed buffing or not) was the same strength as a Space Marine..
I kinda hope it is. I've only heard of bad reviews from W&G so far, the major critique I heard was that apparently a Guardsman (I can't remember if it needed buffing or not) was the same strength as a Space Marine..
Take what I say with a grain of salt as I'm going from memory while looking through the book months ago. While there is a very powerful homogenization of marines in order to make them fit into the same tier as guardsmen and other humans, it's not necessarily as bad as it sounds from your example. While it is possible if the IG player maxes on strength and the marine uses it as a dump stat for some reason, it's not likely. Marines IIRC get a natural bonus to strength from their Astartes race (normal humans don't) and *might* from what I remember get a situation bonus of some sort from their implants on strength checks as well (GM's discretion). Additionally, Marine power armor IIRC gives a +3 bonus (whether +3 dice or a modifier to a roll I don't recall). Primaris IIRC get even more both to their armor and their race stats. So, yes, if you stat out a catachan IG and the marine player takes the minimum strength necessary for the scout class, the IG might equal or exceed the marine in scout armor.
Did they ever come out with the stretch goal pdfs for playing things like ratlings and ogryn? I was just looking through the drivethrurpg files and didn't see them. I wasn't sure if they were supposed to be released/sold to the general public though.
edit: Fun fact... my kindle auto-"correct" thinks when I type ratlings that I meant to type darlings.
warboss wrote: Did they ever come out with the stretch goal pdfs for playing things like darlings and ogryn? I was just looking through the drivethrurpg files and didn't see them. I wasn't sure if they were supposed to be released/sold to the general public though.
I spoke to C7 at UK Games Expo and they did confirm the core book will be revised and not just a reprint. To what extent things would be changed I don't know, but it's not a verbatim reproduction.
Thanks to both for the confirmations. I signed up to their mailing list to see what the news will be since no one else (here.. on youtube... elsewhere) seems to be talking about the game. Does anyone have the rules for the ogryns and ratlings btw? How are they? What tiers are those races meant to start at?
warboss wrote: Thanks to both for the confirmations. I signed up to their mailing list to see what the news will be since no one else (here.. on youtube... elsewhere) seems to be talking about the game. Does anyone have the rules for the ogryns and ratlings btw? How are they? What tiers are those races meant to start at?
LavuranGuard wrote: I spoke to C7 at UK Games Expo and they did confirm the core book will be revised and not just a reprint. To what extent things would be changed I don't know, but it's not a verbatim reproduction.
From their email:
f you already own a Core Rulebook it will be compatible with the adventures and supplements coming soon. The revised core book will include errata, proofreading edits, a streamlined option for creating characters and a revamped layout.
I appreciate the update but I doubt they'll limit themselves to just that. I suspect that the "errata" will include flat out rules changes and it'll instead be a D&D 3 to 3.5 transition which was also still backward compatible to a degree. That's not necessarily a bad thing overall for the game given the reception that it got initially but it does suck for those who already paid for it. That's just supposition on my part admittedly and I don't have any insider info at all.
I'm glad I didn't go all in back then (dropped around the same time as the Imperial Knight codex last year yeah?), so I'll await reviews of the redone core book instead and see if that's an improvement.
BrookM wrote: I'm glad I didn't go all in back then (dropped around the same time as the Imperial Knight codex last year yeah?), so I'll await reviews of the redone core book instead and see if that's an improvement.
Same here!
It's (another?) one of those times when I'm glad I...'waited'?
I talked to some of the C7 designers at Origins last week, though none working on this product directly. What they told me is that they’re mainly looking to put some of the content that was previously only available on cards into the book itself. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some basic errata, but they’re not at all committing to supporting this rule set going forward. They’re not ruling it out, but it hasn’t been all that well received, so I suspect that unless sales tell them otherwise, we could see a completely new system in just a couple years (or whatever their development time is). So, as always, if you like it, buy it. They also look to Facebook, Twitter, and sometimes relevant Discord communities ever since C7 decided to stop hosting their own forums; being active in those communities can also show support for the system.
Seems like the better bet would be to stick with the FFG games for the next couple of years and see what C7 can come up with on their own without the W&G system boat anchoring them.
LavuranGuard wrote: I spoke to C7 at UK Games Expo and they did confirm the core book will be revised and not just a reprint. To what extent things would be changed I don't know, but it's not a verbatim reproduction.
From their email:
f you already own a Core Rulebook it will be compatible with the adventures and supplements coming soon. The revised core book will include errata, proofreading edits, a streamlined option for creating characters and a revamped layout.
I played in the pre-gen adventure that they put out, and found it reasonably quick and intuitive to play. But then when I bought the rulebook and tried to make a character (an Eldar Warlock, who would have 2 or 3 psychic powers) it was just way too much. I didn't realize just how much I prefer D&D 5e style char gen (decide on class, subclass, race, background, stat method, starting equipment, and then you're done) to point buy until this moment, and this was poorly laid out point buy at that.
In addition, I think that the complaint over layout was a common one. It just isn't an attractive book, nor is it easy to find stuff in; it also had a lot more errors in tables and descriptions than such a complex char gen system could tolerate. By contrast, I've found the Adventures in Middle Earth books to be both attractive and relatively easy to navigate.
So the above prospective changes sound good to me, but it is hard to see how a revised version of the book can overcome the rather muted reception that the game got on release.
I’ve only just recently found out about this system. It sounds pretty dicey for future support so far. Would someone give me a rundown on if this game will live or receive support? Any players? How do you like this compared to the Dark Heresy, Only War, et al?
warboss wrote: Thanks to both for the confirmations. I signed up to their mailing list to see what the news will be since no one else (here.. on youtube... elsewhere) seems to be talking about the game. Does anyone have the rules for the ogryns and ratlings btw? How are they? What tiers are those races meant to start at?
I'll check for you tomorrow.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm curious as to what tiers they're meant for and how the ogryns compare tier for tier with astartes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone here on dakka played more than a one-off/intro adventure session? I'm curious what the opinion might be from someone who played enough to actually advance a character a rank or two or even a full tier.
Since we announced that we would be publishing Warhammer 40,000 roleplaying games there has been many questions on what our plans are.
Our FAQ below answers the most asked questions so far. We hope this helps and we will continue to update and answer more as we progress!
So let’s dive into the questions…..
I bought the core book before the announcement, will I need to buy it again? No! We love Wrath & Glory; it’s the perfect system to jump into adventure in the Age of the Dark Imperium. We’re not going to change the game, so if you own a Core Rulebook it will be fully compatible with all of the adventures and supplements coming soon.
What exactly is included in the revision, how much will you change? As with any game, there has been feedback on Wrath & Glory since its release, and we’ve listened. Our writers are making sure the epic world of Warhammer 40,000 oozes off every page, and we’ll edit any text errors and implement errata. We’re going to take some time to revamp the layout for maximum readability, whether you’re using a dataslate or a cogitator. We’re working with Warhammer 40,0000 Roleplay luminary and original game designer Ross Watson to bring you streamlined character creation, whilst retaining the depth of the original system.
When will the revised core book be released? We’re aiming to have a PDF available in September, with a physical release in November.
What is timeline for the other releases? Our plans are to begin releasing supplements at the start of next year.
Will C7 change the art for W&G? The vast vault of Warhammer 40,000 artwork has illuminated and inspired gamers for decades, and we’re excited to add to it where we can. We may change some of the Wrath & Glory artwork and will continue to use classic images from the 40k archives to make the Revised Rulebook as inspiring as the Uplifting Primer.
How involved is Ross Watson? Ross Watson is heavily involved in the writing and design of the Revised Rulebook – nobody knows the game better.
What are the differences between Dark Heresy and W&G? The original Warhammer 40,000 Roleplaying system used d100s and was focused on a particular part of the setting, like the lower levels of the Inquisition or a Rogue Trader and their retinue. Wrath & Glory is a more accessible d6 dice pool system that will feel instantly familiar to any 40k veteran. The characters you play can be from any part of the vast universe you want; love Space Wolves, but your best buddy can’t wait to play an Aeldari Warlock? That’s fine in Wrath & Glory – and you can bring your Commissar and Hive Scum friends too!
BrianDavion wrote: if the system is poorly received I could see them returning to the 2d10 system the FFG stuff did.
I'd be all up for 2nd Ed's of RT/DW/BC/OW and a relaunch of DH2.0.
Means I can get back into it.
me too. I much prefer FFG's concept of "seperate games with a unified system" to W&G's "yeah you can play a comissar an eldar and a space marine all in the same party"
BrianDavion wrote: if the system is poorly received I could see them returning to the 2d10 system the FFG stuff did.
I'd be all up for 2nd Ed's of RT/DW/BC/OW and a relaunch of DH2.0.
Means I can get back into it.
me too. I much prefer FFG's concept of "seperate games with a unified system" to W&G's "yeah you can play a comissar an eldar and a space marine all in the same party"
Same, but these days it seems like most RPG groups are all about the "lol that's so randumb bro" attitude - which, for the record, I am not disparaging or saying people aren't allowed to prefer, it's just a trend I've noticed and personally don't care for - and the "this is our party; a Sphess Marin(Primaris, natch), a Commissar who's player thinks threatening to execute everyone for cowardice constantly will be totes hilarious, and an IRL relationship pair playing an Eldar Ranger & Ork Commando odd-couple sitcom scenario" approach is much more conducive to that style than the FFG "come up with a character concept that actually fits into [organisation], from a range of broadly appropriate choices" systems.
BrianDavion wrote: if the system is poorly received I could see them returning to the 2d10 system the FFG stuff did.
I'd be all up for 2nd Ed's of RT/DW/BC/OW and a relaunch of DH2.0.
Means I can get back into it.
me too. I much prefer FFG's concept of "seperate games with a unified system" to W&G's "yeah you can play a comissar an eldar and a space marine all in the same party"
Same, but these days it seems like most RPG groups are all about the "lol that's so randumb bro" attitude - which, for the record, I am not disparaging or saying people aren't allowed to prefer, it's just a trend I've noticed and personally don't care for - and the "this is our party; a Sphess Marin(Primaris, natch), a Commissar who's player thinks threatening to execute everyone for cowardice constantly will be totes hilarious, and an IRL relationship pair playing an Eldar Ranger & Ork Commando odd-couple sitcom scenario" approach is much more conducive to that style than the FFG "come up with a character concept that actually fits into [organisation], from a range of broadly appropriate choices" systems.
I think a lot of it comes down to 'marketability'. Every designer wants their system to be the one that spawns Sir Bearington or Mexican Monk memes that get shared everywhere, or to be the next Critical Roll. Everything's so ludicrous, which when it's a group of friends only barely taking the game seriously is pretty appealing at a glance, to an outsider. People remember the dumb, absurd jokes but when the games/systems become nothing more but desperately trying to fill situations with quips and 'implausible' situations, it all feels a bit weightless.
Selling a more lore-appropriate, if not serious premise rather than EPIC and AWESOME adventures BLAM'ING THOSE HERETICS, YESSSS is a lot trickier. That's not saying "STOP HAVING FUN" or anything, but we've definitely seen a big swing towards these games being less Band of Brothers and more Guardians of the Galaxy.
Since we announced that we would be publishing Warhammer 40,000 roleplaying games there has been many questions on what our plans are.
Our FAQ below answers the most asked questions so far. We hope this helps and we will continue to update and answer more as we progress!
So let’s dive into the questions…..
I bought the core book before the announcement, will I need to buy it again? No! We love Wrath & Glory; it’s the perfect system to jump into adventure in the Age of the Dark Imperium. We’re not going to change the game, so if you own a Core Rulebook it will be fully compatible with all of the adventures and supplements coming soon.
What exactly is included in the revision, how much will you change? As with any game, there has been feedback on Wrath & Glory since its release, and we’ve listened. Our writers are making sure the epic world of Warhammer 40,000 oozes off every page, and we’ll edit any text errors and implement errata. We’re going to take some time to revamp the layout for maximum readability, whether you’re using a dataslate or a cogitator. We’re working with Warhammer 40,0000 Roleplay luminary and original game designer Ross Watson to bring you streamlined character creation, whilst retaining the depth of the original system.
When will the revised core book be released? We’re aiming to have a PDF available in September, with a physical release in November.
What is timeline for the other releases? Our plans are to begin releasing supplements at the start of next year.
Will C7 change the art for W&G? The vast vault of Warhammer 40,000 artwork has illuminated and inspired gamers for decades, and we’re excited to add to it where we can. We may change some of the Wrath & Glory artwork and will continue to use classic images from the 40k archives to make the Revised Rulebook as inspiring as the Uplifting Primer.
How involved is Ross Watson? Ross Watson is heavily involved in the writing and design of the Revised Rulebook – nobody knows the game better.
What are the differences between Dark Heresy and W&G? The original Warhammer 40,000 Roleplaying system used d100s and was focused on a particular part of the setting, like the lower levels of the Inquisition or a Rogue Trader and their retinue. Wrath & Glory is a more accessible d6 dice pool system that will feel instantly familiar to any 40k veteran. The characters you play can be from any part of the vast universe you want; love Space Wolves, but your best buddy can’t wait to play an Aeldari Warlock? That’s fine in Wrath & Glory – and you can bring your Commissar and Hive Scum friends too!
Thanks for the update/link. I was one of the folks who asked them and I was told to sign up to their newsletter; so far, I haven't gotten anything from that route. I wonder if they'll update the pdf on drivethrurpg for confirmed buyers when they release the new version. That certainly would be a pro-consumer move given how soon they're significantly changing it. Hopefully they'll include the ratling/ogryn info.
But a good GM and group can slap down the nonsensical ideas pretty quickly.
"OK folks we're playing a campaign with an Inquisition team on a stealth mission, so no Xenos or Marines unless you can pass as human."
vs
"OK folks, a bunch of random characters are stranded on a Space Hulk and you have 24 hours to find a working shuttle and fight off the mutant hordes before it disappears into the warp forever."
Both are fine games, so a system that can accomedate both has an advantage over one that can only handle a team of IG troopers (for example).
Kid_Kyoto wrote: But a good GM and group can slap down the nonsensical ideas pretty quickly.
"OK folks we're playing a campaign with an Inquisition team on a stealth mission, so no Xenos or Marines unless you can pass as human."
vs
"OK folks, a bunch of random characters are stranded on a Space Hulk and you have 24 hours to find a working shuttle and fight off the mutant hordes before it disappears into the warp forever."
Both are fine games, so a system that can accomedate both has an advantage over one that can only handle a team of IG troopers (for example).
As a Forever GM, I strongly disagree. I could do that, to an extent, with *one* of the groups I used to run, because the people in it were reasonable, several were actual friends, and they appreciated the amount of work I put in curating our own little corner of 40K to play in(which group is now deadzo, because GW opened their big fat rift right on top of said corner, joining my one other decent group of WFRP'rs who bogged off after the End Times debacle - thanks GWbama).
That isn't most groups in my experience. It's certainly not most new groups, when everyone is still in the process of feeling out what everyone else is into and will accept and will find annoying. The stronger the theme of the ruleset being used, the less I have to fight against That One Guy Who's Not Really A Proper That F'n Guy But Still who keeps trying to slip Rock & Morty or other meme'y BS into things, or the tendency of some players to devolve into Subversive Special Snowflakery.
"It can do whatever you want!" sounds great on paper, but it also makes it really difficult for a GM to say "no" without seeming like an unreasonable old grog trying to railroad the players because hey, it's right there; whatever you want, so why can't I play my ridiculous borderline-Deadpoolish meme-factory, huh Mr GM? Sure, you can boot people who try and take the piss, but lots of people will disagree with what exactly constitutes taking the piss, and IME if a GM tries removing a player(no matter how politely, no matter how much any reasonable person might think them justified) from a group that's using a very open system, there's a better than even chance the group will fracture entirely.
And, of course, if a GM were to lament that state of affairs, the typical response will be "you should have chosen a system that better represented the type of game you wanted to run then, shouldn't you".
Hence why I much prefer being able to say "I'm running an Only War group, who wants in", because if anyone then tries to pitch their half-Eldar Rogue Trader Who's Sekritly A Custodian And Also Alpharius they will be seen as the unreasonable prat and I can get shot of them without anyone else taking umbrage.
It looks like they'll be updating the pdf for free to the new version as well as coming out with a free update pdf detailing the changes for physical book owners.
As for what some of his the changes will be, this is what they posted for the link click lazy.
Here’s a list of some of what you can expect to find inside:
A full integration of all the errata for the Core Rulebook.
A new, streamlined method for creating characters.
An expanded set of flexible Frameworks.
Updated layout with an expanded index.
An extra round of editing and proofreading.
I agree but I figured I'd post at least nominally good news. A free update to a subpar book is still better than "your book is officially useless after one year" FWIW.
Yesterday, we were delighted to reveal the cover art for our upcoming Wrath & Glory Core Rulebook! Today we want to share an update from Cubicle 7’s Wrath & Glory Producer Zak Dale-Clutterbuck and show you the book cover with the logo.
In the 41st Millenium, there is only war. In the Gilead system, the battle for the survival of the Imperium rages. Cut off from the light of the Emperor by Noctis Aeterna, they have no reinforcements, no means of travel, no means of communication with the wider Imperium. Desperate agents of different factions put aside their differences (for now) to defend this bastion of humanity isolated in the darkness.
In Wrath & Glory, you’ll build a group of unique characters based on Warhammer 40,000 Archetypes and embark on your own perilous adventures. By choosing or creating your own Framework, you can define what kind of stories you’d like to tell in the Dark Imperium. The Rulebook cover shows a group of Iconic adventurers battling off Orks and Chaos cultists in a mission to save the Gilead system. Continue reading for a break down of the cover here: https://www.cubicle7games.com/wrath-glory/
Overall, I like the cover although I was a fan of the previous one as well so didn't see a reason to change it (other than maybe for instant recognition of the revised version to prevent confusion). That said... the angle of the arm/hand and gun for the primaris is sligntly off. Once you see the awkwardness of that, I don't think you can unsee it.
We are so excited to announce that the PDF for Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay: Wrath & Glory is finished! You can pre-order your copy of the book here and get hold of the PDF straight away!
Own the previous Rulebook?
We will add the new PDF to the existing one on DrivethruRPG so those who purchased the previous Rulebook can access it through their Library. If you bought only the physical copy previously, we are working on a free PDF to highlight the changes and will release this soon too. Please keep an eye on our social media channels for more on this.
We will also add the PDF to Bits and Mortar so stores can fulfil their direct pre-orders.
Below producer Zak Dale-Clutterbuck has outlined what you can expect from this edition and has broken down each chapter. In case you missed it, check out our recent layout reveal here!
What is Wrath & Glory?
Wrath & Glory is the story of the Gilead System, eight Imperial worlds cut off from the Emperor’s light by the Great Rift. The new Rulebook focuses on the Gilead System, allowing you to tell your own stories in a society beset by daemonic invasion and internal corruption.
Character Creation has been streamlined, with a focus on Frameworks. With so many choices of who and what you can play, you’ll want to decide the focus of your game early!
The Factions Chapter is a primer on life in the 41st Millennium, detailing each of the organisations vying for supremacy in the Warp-torn Gilead System. Here you’ll find expanded background options for every Faction, each of which provides a bonus during play.
The Archetypes you know and love have been presented in an easy-to-read, single-page format. All requirements have been removed, and extra bonuses have been added to complement the slight changes to Wrath & Glory. The Attribute, Skill, and Talent suggestions are ideal for guiding new players through making a character, or building quick NPCs on the fly.
The Wrath & Glory Talent list has been massively expanded into an entire chapter for a greater range of character customisation. Some of these are classic Warhammer fare we know and love — tearing through armour, proficiency with blazing promethium, and, of course, MORE DAKKA! There are other choices for investigative or social-based games. Talents like Conversational Cogitator bring the focus back to roleplaying, letting you use the augmetics of your mechanised mind to calculate the best response in any conversation.
Once you’ve survived a few adventures (hopefully without losing too many limbs), you’ll have gathered some Experience Points (XP). The new Advancement chapter has overhauled the Ascension system, allowing you to change Archetypes, take new Ascension Packages, or just spend your XP on cool stuff. The system is designed to be both robust and flexible to suit any group.
The essential Rules have been reviewed, edited, playtested, and presented with a focus on clarity and quick understanding. Very little has changed bar a few simplifications, which will mean you’re using the book less and your imagination more.
Combat is around every corner in the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium. We’ve gone through all the errata for Wrath & Glory, taking the same approach as with the Rules. Combat is largely unchanged, apart from simplification, clarification, and some cool new optional rules, including an entirely new Stealth system.
We’ve addressed errata issues with everything from Reloads to Wounds, but rest assured we won’t stop here. We’d love if you would help us by letting us know about any typos or other errors that you may find in the PDF via this Errata link only. Thanks!
I hope they improve upon the lackluster first release although I'm a bit hesitant about the simplification description they use above given that the original felt like butter spread too thin over toast to begin with. Fingers crossed...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm fine with a new thread.
Albertorius wrote: Well, for starters layout looks like a massive improvement.
How does the lack of restrictions on archetypes on talents affect min-maxing? Should we expect a glut of astartes librarian cripples wheeling around in mobile sarcophagi who exited their dreadnoughts because of some sort of beneficial munchkin rules interaction? I'm apprehensive about how focusing on putting all the rules for a character archetype on one page and the "streamlining" that entails will actually affect the process.
Albertorius wrote: Well, for starters layout looks like a massive improvement.
How does the lack of restrictions on archetypes on talents affect min-maxing? Should we expect a glut of astartes librarian cripples wheeling around in mobile sarcophagi who exited their dreadnoughts because of some sort of beneficial munchkin rules interaction? I'm apprehensive about how focusing on putting all the rules for a character archetype on one page and the "streamlining" that entails will actually affect the process.
I expect that the same way that any other game with free XP expenditure does, which is mainly to say, it really doesn't and it's left up to the table and the GM.
From what I can see, archetypes have species limitations, logically enough in 40k, and suggestions on attributes, skills and talents, but no general hard caps (there are talents with specific limitations, though).
Suggested Purchases Your Archetype will give you bonuses to Attributes and Skills, but you’ll still have a lot of XP left over to customise your character. If you’ve never built a character before or you’re short on time, you can use the suggested purchases presented with each Archetype to start playing quickly.
These costs are calculated using the tables on p.24-25. The suggested Attributes and Skills are tailored to each Archetype, highlighting their strengths or what they need to succeed. You might want to take either or both of the suggested arrays, and use your remaining points to customise them further using the tables on p.24-25.
The suggested Talents have also been tailored to each Archetype, including any particular quirks or what might be useful to them. Talents can also help differentiate between different individuals with the same Archetype. If you have two Inquisitorial Acolytes in your group, they’ll probably have different backstories. For instance, one might be a proficient lip reader, and the other could have a secret identity.
Albertorius wrote: I expect that the same way that any other game with free XP expenditure does, which is mainly to say, it really doesn't and it's left up to the table and the GM.
From what I can see, archetypes have species limitations, logically enough in 40k, and suggestions on attributes, skills and talents, but no general hard caps (there are talents with specific limitations, though).
Thanks. Once you get a chance to go over it a bit more, let us know what you think. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the changes.
Albertorius wrote: I expect that the same way that any other game with free XP expenditure does, which is mainly to say, it really doesn't and it's left up to the table and the GM.
From what I can see, archetypes have species limitations, logically enough in 40k, and suggestions on attributes, skills and talents, but no general hard caps (there are talents with specific limitations, though).
Thanks. Once you get a chance to go over it a bit more, let us know what you think. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the changes.
Well, for now I can see there's still quite a bit of errata (wrong costs, mainly) and there's still far too few archetypes, but as now there's a "freeform" character generation, I don't think that's as much of an issue. There are more talents now, which should help differentiate characters further, but the core of the game is unchanged.
Comments from an old FFG freelance:
Basic character creation is pick species (species provides base stats and skills rather than modifiers, plus a couple of special perks, all covered in the cost... unless you're human, in which case you don't pay anything, but don't get anything either), pick archetype (haven't gotten to the archetypes yet), spend remaining XP to customise (humans get more customisation because they've not spent anything on species). Astartes is, for example, 160xp for a heap of basic attributes and skills. Primaris is 198 for a bit more. Orks start at Strength and Toughness 3, Aeldari at Agility 3. No tier limits on species, but the Astartes ones obviously are too expensive to play at lower tiers.
Advanced character creation is pick an appropriate keyword, spend XP freely on attributes, skills, archetypes if wanted, and talents. It does mention that you can go without an archetype if you want, but you'd better buy a talent or two to make up for the deficit, and there's mention of archetype-creation guidance later. Again, not gotten that far.
Character creation guidance also has age, hair colour, eye colour, and height random rolls. Humans start out in their late 20s/early 30s on average, but add years per tier. Astartes start out in their 70s and add years per tier (not sure how that syncs up with Scouts, haven't got there yet). Aeldari start off around 5 or 6 centuries old and add 3d6 centuries per tier. Orks don't generally age as much over tier... but they gain an extra 2d6" of height each tier, which I thought was amusingly fitting.
Just realised something here... this is the first 40kRPG to use Imperial measurements rather than metric...
Edit: Space Marine chapter/geneseed variations are a bit meatier and more impactful now, and it looks like, across the board, anything that used to give 1/2 Rank as a bonus now gives Rank, and anything that used to give +Rank as a bonus now gives double Rank as a bonus - for example, Blood Angels get to reroll double rank dice on melee attacks (but risk becoming frenzied if they see blood in melee), and Dark Angels get to reroll double rank dice on aimed ranged attacks (but don't socialise well outside their Chapter), while Space Wolves get both Acute Senses and Dual Wield talents for free (but can never voluntarily retreat).
Meanwhile, the Aeldari choose a Path they've previously walked and get a Rank bonus from that to a particular skill, and can buy additional previous paths by spending xp.
Chaos has no specific archetypes in the rulebook, but rather a page explaining how to alter other archetypes to represent traitor versions.
Edit 2: Started on the Archetype section now, and each archetype includes the cost and effects of the prerequisite species, which makes things even easier to work with.
Albertorius wrote: Well, for now I can see there's still quite a bit of errata (wrong costs, mainly) and there's still far too few archetypes, but as now there's a "freeform" character generation, I don't think that's as much of an issue. There are more talents now, which should help differentiate characters further, but the core of the game is unchanged.
That's not promising. :( Mistakes like that were found almost in real time when the original came out and it was bad enough that they made it through the editorial process without someone simply doing simple arithmetic the first time around. If they didn't double check that given the history, it's doubly worse this time around. I'd have preferred if they had limited the book to only imperial characters with the redux (while still keeping the others completely legal though if you have the original) so as not to spread the content so thin but I knew that was very unlikely to happen so am not surprised if it didn't happen. Still... simple math errors (I wonder if they're the same errors they copy/pasted or did someone else screw up with addition a second time?) are inexcusable when you're already revamping an error ridden product so soon after first release.
One of the changes I've noticed aside from the much improved layout is that chaos archetypes are no longer entirely separate entries. Instead they are modifications to imperial versions. Generally the change is wargear, some corruption points, the [MARK OF CHAOS] keyword, and [LEGION] instead of [CHAPTER].Chaos marks are talents now. The mark of Nurgle gives you +1 toughness, just like in 7th Edition.
I'm still going through it, but I like what I've seen so far.
warboss wrote: That's not promising. :( Mistakes like that were found almost in real time when the original came out and it was bad enough that they made it through the editorial process without someone simply doing simple arithmetic the first time around.
...snip...
WhIle I'd prefer the PDF to be error free, Cubicle 7 has taken a proactive stance to catching these errors before printing with an open error reporting form to report errors - this via Facebook.
Crowdsourcing editing is not praise worthy IMO. I agree that it is preferable to the worst case scenario of just leaving them in though. Again, I don't have the pdf so am going off of what Albertorius wrote but this type of error that the original was notorious for should have gotten special attention the second time around. Ymmv.
warboss wrote: That's not promising. :( Mistakes like that were found almost in real time when the original came out and it was bad enough that they made it through the editorial process without someone simply doing simple arithmetic the first time around.
...snip...
WhIle I'd prefer the PDF to be error free, Cubicle 7 has taken a proactive stance to catching these errors before printing with an open error reporting form to report errors - this via Facebook.
They do a have a google form submission for presenting errors as well.
I’ve looked through the new book—lots of stuff is better, but they really half-assed some stuff. I looked in the Tempestus Scion Archetype—Besides any major mechanics stuff changed that they’ve sort of changed everywhere, they copy pasted from the original Wrath and Glory edition, not even looking at the errata, and they ended up removing things as well.
They didn’t make the Scion start with Tempestus Carapace like the original W&G did (they changed it to do this in the errata). They forgot or removed the Omnishield helm rule. In addition, in equipment, Monoscopes are still considered a weapon upgrade, not a piece of equipment that’s shoulder-mounted. This should also be a part of the built-in tech for Tempestus Carapace. The original W&G made this mistake, too.
From the post, it looks like the book is printed and on the slow boat (from China?) and it'll probably still be a month until copies reach customers hands if you (pre)ordered direct from them. No idea when it'll hit store shelves but the last time with the original WANG it was another month or two to filter down the distribution process and that was without a worldwide pandemic. With over sixth months since the release of the pdf version, I can't help but think no lessons were learnt from the initial version's release as it too was long and very drawn out. :( I don't have the pdf so can't comment on what, if any, changes were made since the thread was last updated in April. Still progress is progress and the Imperial war machine is perceptibly moving forward.
Since the thread was bumped, I figured I'd also post that the same company now making WanG announced their new darker, more heresier style RPG using a variant of the classic d100 system. I have no idea what this means for WanG long term.
warboss wrote: Since the thread was bumped, I figured I'd also post that the same company now making WanG announced their new darker, more heresier style RPG using a variant of the classic d100 system. I have no idea what this means for WanG long term.
I'm not a fan of how broad in scope the WanG system, so hopefully it marks a return to a more focused scope and the grimdark themes that Alan Bligh et al. brought to the FFGRPGs.
I appreciate the info (no sarcasm). I would point out though that there is nothing listed there for PDF release post Q1 2023 (with the usual for them half year delay between that and physical copies in stores) which means it's all stuff that was already in the pipeline. I fully admit that it may be normal for them to not announce things out longer than that and may mean nothing but it's not as reassuring as you may think. I've been through that rodeo multiple times with RPG companies over the decades and a lack of long term announced products is usually the first kiss of death for the line; I sincerely hope I'm wrong. They are after all supporting both WHFB and AOS as separate lines to some degree (admittedly I have no interest in either and am just going off of memory) so it's definitely possible to do both for 40k as well. I suppose we'll see about this time next year.
DrGiggles wrote:
I'm not a fan of how broad in scope the WanG system, so hopefully it marks a return to a more focused scope and the grimdark themes that Alan Bligh et al. brought to the FFGRPGs.
Yes and no. I agree that WanG was too broad (personally I think it should have focused on the Imperium first and then released various xenos and Chaos supplements afterwards) but you're probably talking about the spread out of power levels. I initially liked the tripartite split with FFG's 40k lines but then it went to far with six lines ultimately (five if you don't include DH2.0). Only with the release of Only War did I realize that it wasn't a good idea. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself.
DrGiggles wrote:
I'm not a fan of how broad in scope the WanG system, so hopefully it marks a return to a more focused scope and the grimdark themes that Alan Bligh et al. brought to the FFGRPGs.
Yes and no. I agree that WanG was too broad (personally I think it should have focused on the Imperium first and then released various xenos and Chaos supplements afterwards) but you're probably talking about the spread out of power levels. I initially liked the tripartite split with FFG's 40k lines but then it went to far with six lines ultimately (five if you don't include DH2.0). Only with the release of Only War did I realize that it wasn't a good idea. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself.
I was talking mostly about the themes, but yes I don't care for the power levels in W&G either. The dice pool system can make it feel comically easy to complete tasks that should be incredibly difficult, makes the game feel more like a power-fantasy simulator than an RPG at times which is fine just not my cup of tea. I find that RPG's are best when there are high-high's counterbalanced with potentially serious consequences for failure. The sniper in my group hitting the CSM in the head to distract him from murdering half of the party was amazing, and the CSM shooting the bandolier of grenades held by the sniper causing a fiery explosion that immolated the sniper and nearby psyker was also awesome and is still talked about fondly by the group nearly 3 years later.
Agreed that the DH supplements went off the rails. The original rule book, creatures anathema, and the inquisitor's handbook were good though. Based on the interview linked earlier in the thread though this new RPG system will be fairly narrow in focus.
Eilif wrote: I have the same question. For Fluff and possible ideas for wargaming scenarios is the bundle worth it for those not intending to play the RPG?
They might be good for setting up scenarios for kill team and skirmish scale stuff but the FFG books tended to be very *insert sector here* specific though you can cut and paste in other factions/characters as needed.
Indeed. I wasn't aware of it either. I'd have preferred to get a glimpse of the inside of the character sheets though as the trifold design looks interesting.
